The Lawfare Podcast — Lawfare Daily: How Technologists Can Help Regulators with Erie Meyer and Laura Edelson

Date: October 14, 2025
Host: Justin Sherman (Contributing Editor, Lawfare; CEO, Global Cyber Strategies)
Guests: Erie Meyer (Senior Fellow, Georgetown & Vanderbilt) and Laura Edelson (Assistant Professor, Northeastern University)
Episode Theme:
A deep dive into how technologists can empower regulators and state enforcers to meet modern challenges, the barriers to integrating technical talent into government, and practical advice for policymakers from the co-authors of a new toolkit on this essential topic.

Overview

This episode explores the growing necessity for technologists within regulatory and state enforcement agencies. Drawing from frontline experiences at federal and state levels, Erie Meyer and Laura Edelson discuss their new toolkit, sharing how technologists have transformed legal investigations, compliance, and policy formation. The conversation highlights the gap between cutting-edge technology and the resources available to those tasked with overseeing it and offers real-world guidance for bridging that divide.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introductions & Context ([03:09]–[06:22])

• Laura Edelson describes her career path from software engineering to academia and her federal roles as Chief Technologist for both the DOJ Antitrust and Civil Rights Divisions. She tackled algorithmic collusion and anti-competitive conduct in search algorithms.
• Erie Meyer details her hybrid policy-tech background, from helping launch the CFPB and US Digital Service to spearheading tech reforms at the FTC and beyond.
  • Notable quote:
    "My work was really to take a hard look at big tech lurching into consumer finance and make sure that we were ready to keep consumers safe." — Erie Meyer ([06:07])

2. The State of Tech Expertise in Government ([06:22]–[08:35])

• Recent history: Technologist roles at agencies have faced partisan turbulence but are growing in number, especially at the state level.

• Current status: Federal teams exist at CFPB, FTC; around 20 state AGs now have in-house technical staff.

• Trend: Federal roles strained, but robust expansion in states.

  • Notable quote:
    "Things are a little strained at the federal level, but we're really seeing very impressive growth at the state level with technologists in enforcement agencies." — Erie Meyer ([07:56])

3. Why Regulators Need Technologists ([08:35]–[12:21])

• Nature of regulatory questions: Increasingly, answers reside within technical systems (source code, machine learning models).
• Barriers: Non-technical staff often lack capacity to interpret crucial evidence.
• Anecdotes:

  • Analytics blind spots—Regulators unaware of basic web analytics until a technologist demonstrates with developer tools.

  • Digital tracking: Many lawyers didn't realize how pervasive tracking pixels are.

  • Notable quote:
    "The answer to a regulator's question is written down somewhere very explicitly, but in order to read that answer, you need to be able to read Python..." — Laura Edelson ([09:07])

  • On legal teams’ surprise at basics:
    "Their jaws dropped...That's just like a mini example of the kinds of things that are happening on cases." — Erie Meyer ([10:17])

4. Functions Technologists Can (and Can’t) Perform ([12:21]–[19:54])

• Widespread impact areas:
  • Investigations and data acquisition: Getting beyond superficial data samples, understanding tech infrastructure.
  • Public interaction: Improving complaint intake, leveraging third-party tech insights (e.g., standards bodies).
  • Policy development: Creating clear, actionable rules accessible to startups and innovators, not just entrenched giants.
  • Modernization: Overhauling investigation methods and infrastructure (e.g., DOJ's long-term tech modernization).
• Not IT support:

  • They don't fix printers or update Office licenses; their function is policy and investigative work, not IT maintenance.

  • Notable quote:
    "Something like sampling is for ice cream was the rule of the road. And a lot of law enforcement offices, once they had a technologist in house…could really get the information they needed to investigate conduct." — Erie Meyer ([13:32])

  • On her modernization efforts:
    "I helped them develop a technology modernization plan...every single business has become a very data heavy business." — Laura Edelson ([15:58])

  • On clarifying roles:
    "She did not go from office to office updating people's Microsoft 365...It's not IT support." — Erie Meyer ([19:28])

5. Closing the Skills Gap ([19:54]–[23:08])

• Types of technologists: Computer scientists, product managers, designers—each brings unique value.

• Bridging language: Decoding tech jargon for legal teams is an ongoing, vital task.

• Training examples: Using "bullshit bingo" to teach government workers how to spot misleading or evasive technical language.

  • Notable quote:
    "There's so much work to be done to do things like help regulators make document requests just using the right words, the right jargon that will actually get the documents that they are looking for produced." — Laura Edelson ([21:51])
  • On educating staff:
    "We played a game of bullshit bingo...some of the tells that even non-technical government teams can use to sort of ask better follow-up questions." — Erie Meyer ([23:09])

6. Best Practices: Communicating Across Disciplines ([26:28]–[29:03])

• For technologists: The onus is on them to “de-jargon” and clarify, focusing interactions on core insights, not technical intricacies.

• Cultural differences: Lawyers may not ask clarifying questions—technologists must encourage active understanding.

  • Notable quote:
    “If you don't understand something, that's my problem. So we're going to solve that together.” — Laura Edelson ([28:22])

7. Technologists Across Casework Stages ([29:03]–[34:26])

• Early stages: Identify systemic problems, originate cases, and detect patterns invisible to lawyers (e.g., exhaustive logs/code histories).

• Discovery: Technical staff can pinpoint exactly what data exists and how to obtain it, countering obfuscation by opposing counsel.

• Systemic thinking: Technologists naturally analyze how systems behave, often finding evidence or issues others miss.

  • Notable quote:
    “Technologists…err towards the systemic and are able to discover places where things are broken in interesting ways.” — Erie Meyer ([29:54])
  • On exhaustive data trails:
    “Truly exhaustive records kept that lawyers almost have trouble fathoming…at minimum, I will have persistent...records every single time it was built and deployed.” — Laura Edelson ([31:39])

8. Recruiting Technologists to Government ([34:26]–[40:33])

• Appeal: Many in tech want mission-driven, impactful work—they’re eager for public service despite private sector’s higher pay.

• Resource constraints: State-level regulator teams are drastically under-resourced.

• Cost benefit: Technologists offer exceptional value for their salaries; government roles need not match private compensation because of their unique purpose.

  • Notable quote:
    "I get like a thousand job applicants. People are desperate to do this work...you can fight to protect your neighbors…and make the whole country better. They jump at the opportunity." — Erie Meyer ([35:23])
  • On career satisfaction:
    "I had an industry job and career and it made me really sad...there are plenty of other folks that want to find ways to use systems thinking...and would like to do it." — Laura Edelson ([38:50])

9. The AI Reckoning: Risks and Regulatory Opportunities ([40:33]–[44:18])

• Urgency around AI: Rapid developments require regulators to have in-house technical expertise to keep pace and protect the public.

• Lessons from Web 2.0: Waiting for technology to mature before regulating leads to entrenched harm and legal headaches.

• AI-specific risks: Unchecked experimentation can lead to unfair/deceptive trade practices or illegal discriminatory outcomes.

  • Notable quote:
    "If you lack the in house technical expertise to know what AI is or what a chatbot is, or how kids are using it, you're behind the eight ball." — Erie Meyer ([41:19])
  • On regulatory delay:
    "I just think it was such a mistake when regulators looked at the early days of call it Web 2.0 and thought, well, we just don't know how to tackle this yet, so we'll just wait and see how everything shakes out in 10 years. I think that went very badly." — Laura Edelson ([42:54])

10. Practical Advice for Legislators & Leaders ([44:18]–[46:50])

• Erie Meyer: Fund technical roles and build in-house capacity—it’s essential and cost-effective.

• Laura Edelson: Cast a wide net; technologists can add value in many areas not initially obvious, from policy to internal modernization.

  • Notable quote:
    “It is outrageous that you would have a team of lawyers...and not even have a single technical person on their side. So my one thing would be: resource the teams, get them in house.” — Erie Meyer ([44:52])
  • On broad roles:
    “I found that I was not expecting that...an important thing for me to do would just be to figure out how we would create an organization that had the technical ability to do all the law enforcement that we needed to do.” — Laura Edelson ([45:29])

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On decoding the technical landscape:
  • "Just bringing in someone who knows that jargon...can be very helpful." — Laura Edelson ([21:57])
• On perceived role confusion:
  • “She did not go from office to office updating people's Microsoft 365. It’s not IT support.” — Erie Meyer ([19:39])
• On AI's regulatory challenge:
  • "If regulators decide again that they will just see how all of this shakes out in 10 years, then probably some very bad, possibly legal patterns will be entrenched." — Laura Edelson ([43:29])
• On motivation for public service:
  • "You can fight to protect your neighbors and you can do it with dignity and to make the whole country better.” — Erie Meyer ([35:13])

Conclusion

This episode makes a clear, urgent case: the complexities of today's digital world demand technologists within the halls of regulation and enforcement. Whether demystifying AI systems, translating jargon for legal discovery, or modernizing government infrastructure, technical experts have never been more essential. Both guests stress that while resource constraints are real, the value and social impact technologists provide in government roles far outweigh the costs. Their closing call: invest in and empower these roles, and rethink the broad potential they bring—not just for tech cases, but for the very core of regulatory effectiveness.

Listen to the full episode for deeper stories and the practical toolkit referenced throughout.
Toolkit link: [Georgetown Law’s Institute for Technology Law and Policy (not provided in transcript, see Lawfare’s website)]