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- [00:01]
Anastasia Lopatyna
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- [01:36]
Unnamed Expert
There'S a lot of those things that Finland kept in place because that was sort of like the expectation. Obviously everything that is happening in Ukraine in terms of the unmanned systems is like a novelty and there's a lot of lessons for Finland to learn as well. But on the more sort of traditional side of things, Finland is pretty well prepared for this type of warfare.
- [01:58]
Anastasia Lopatyna
It's the Lawfare podcast. I am Anastasia Lopatyna, Ukraine Fellow at Lawfare with Minna Olander, an Associate Fellow at Chatham House Europe Program.
- [02:10]
Unnamed Expert
One could hope that there is some level of uncertainty about like a possible US response left, although it looks increasingly unlikely that they would really do anything to help their European allies in a case of war.
- [02:25]
Anastasia Lopatyna
I spoke to Minna about Russia's buildup of military infrastructure along Europe's borders and what the European countries are doing to prepare for a potential clash with Russia. So there's been some really interesting reporting in the past few weeks about the potential confrontation between Russia and NATO. The Wall Street Journal published a piece called the Russian Military Moves that have Europe on Edge, describing how Russia has been expanding military bas and infrastructure along its border with Finland, Norway and the Baltic States and the Economist published a few pieces analyzing Russian capabilities and maybe Russia's intent to challenge NATO in the coming years. And you analyzed this and wrote about this as well in your substack column called the Europe Dispatch. So I wanted to bring you on to kind of unpack all of it. So could you just summarize a bit of, of this reporting and development? What kind of buildup are we seeing, you know, in Russia near. Near Europe?
- [03:28]
Unnamed Expert
First of all, thanks a lot for having me again on, on the podcast and maybe just to give a little bit of background why this is relevant, basically why this is a sign of something potentially sort of brewing on the Russian side of the border. The background is that that Russia has actually, in the past years, since its full scale invasion of Ukraine, pulled most of its troops and equipment away from, for example, the Finnish border, out of those bases that are close to the Finnish border, and into Ukraine. So in July 2024, it was reported by the Finnish public broadcaster that according to estimates of the Finnish intelligence service, as much as 80% of troops and equipment were pulled away from the Finnish border. So there was like 80% less military capability at the Finnish border. So this was interesting for especially the reason that Russia, by doing this, basically called its own bluff on this whole narrative that NATO is a threat. Because, like, obviously all of this happened after Finland applied for the NATO membership and became a member. So if there was such an acute threat by NATO posed by NATO, Russia would hardly have like, emptied its border. New NATO border. Anyway, so this was the situation last year in the summer. What we are now seeing is, as you rightly mentioned, infrastructure buildup. So this has been observed, for example, by the, by the Finnish intelligence services and the Finnish Defense Forces and other analysts, also OSINT analysts sort of following, following the situation through satellite imagery. And how it looks like is that Russia has, on the one hand, started building partly completely new railway infrastructure. And this is taking place really from all the way up north, close to the Norwegian border, down the Finnish border, and to, like, Estonia and the Baltic states. Russia has been also in the south, for example, been sort of like connecting and integrating its logistics, meaning roads and railways, with Belarus. And it has been generally improving the existing infrastructure as well. And then we have seen also that the military bases in the vicinity of the border have also seen some improvements, like, for example, new storage halls, which make it also harder to assess what's in there, potentially, because Russians used to be very sort of relaxed about just leaving their tanks and other stuff out in the open. So you could really Nicely see the number of tanks in a base from satellite pictures. So this is obviously like also one thing that they are now doing, that they're not so openly giving away the information. And it also means that they are sort of like building something new. It was also reported that the new equipment that they are now producing is not primarily going to Ukraine, but to the new or like the refurbished bases, I would say. And then one more element to this is also that that Russia has been really ramping up the efforts to recruit more people into the military. So there are various estimates, but it's somewhere around 30 to 40,000 per month, according to this Wall Street Journal article that you referred to. And that estimate is like, from a number of Western intelligence services. So that's not great in the sense that this all sounds like Russia is now more seriously starting to work towards the goals that then Defense Minister Shoigu already announced in December 2023. So back then, these two new, old, new military districts were sort of like re established in Western Russia. So the Moscow military district and the Leningrad military district. So so far this has been mainly on paper and Finland didn't observe a lot of developments. But now it's like, clearly sort of like something starting to happen.
- [07:34]
Anastasia Lopatyna
As you've mentioned, a lot of this is happening along the Finnish border, and I want to devote some attention and some time to discussing that border. You are from Finland and you've worked there and you know the history of this country exceptionally well. And so, you know, I've read in your writing before you mentioned that it seems like no one really knows anything substantial about the country and its history, especially with the Russians. So could you do a bit of a refresher on Finland and. And its security dynamics and how it's been approaching its security since World War II?
- [08:10]
Unnamed Expert
Yeah, I mean, I have to say that I would say that the level of knowledge about Finland has significantly improved over the past three years. But especially in the spring of 2022 when Finland all of a sudden decided to join NATO, reporting wasn't always so accurate because people had sort of like no basis on which to sort of like, assess whether something can potentially be true about Finland or not, because Finland is obviously like, only relevant every hundred years or something. But so from the Finnish perspective, there's like three things that really explain why Finland has the kind of defense system, this whole of society, whole of government, total defense, comprehensive security, what you want to call it. And those three things are basically the history of the country, the geography and the demography. So the History is obviously that Finn Finland has been at war with Russia many times in the course of history, not only as an independent country, but also when it was a part of the Kingdom of Sweden for about 6, 700 years. So those two powers were sort of like always at war with each other, the Russian Empire and the Kingdom of Sweden, because they were like two sort of regional powers. And Finland is between Sweden and Russia. So, like, we got our fair share of.
- [09:30]
Anastasia Lopatyna
I know how that feels.
- [09:31]
Unnamed Expert
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, that's basically the very sort of history when you go far back. But the more relevant part of this is that Finland was the only country in the Second World War that was supposed to become a part of the Soviet Union, according to the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union concluded between each other and where they sort of like divided Central and Eastern Europe between themselves. But Finland managed to actually fight back and avoid that destiny of being occupied by the Soviet Union. So it was first the Winter War and then the Continuation War that Finland fought during the Second World War against the Soviets. Those wars are still really defining for the Finnish identity and the overall system, because then when we get to the geography and the demography, those are things that don't change so much. The geography is still pretty much the same. I mean, we lost some territory back then, but apart from that, not that much has changed. Also the demographic situation, I mean, Finland has now a larger population than 80 years ago, but the sort of in relation to Russia today, it's still like a very, very sort of underdog kind of situation in the sense that Finland has a population of only 5.5 million. So that has sort of like led to this development of total defense system over the course of the past 80 years. And what makes Finland a little special in the European comparison is that Finland never dismantled it after the Cold War either. So the idea is basically that when you have a large territory like Finland's only a few square kilometers smaller than Germany, But Germany has 83 million people and Finland 5.5. So that sort of like gives you an impression of, like, what a challenge it is then to make sure that you can provide an efficient and sufficient national defense, like for the whole territory. So that's why Finland has, for example, the conscription system still in place with the large reserve army and sort of like, one could say this kind of old school territorial defense force that most European countries dismantled after the Cold War because they thought that wars would now take place somewhere else and somewhere further away. And you can Sort of like choose the time and place of when you go to war. And in Finland one could say that the Cold War never ended in the sense that this threat assessment never really significantly changed. So that sort of like explains why Finns are so focused or the Finnish national security is so focused on the eastern border because like, you know, being between Sweden and Russia, Sweden isn't much of a threat, you know, so. So there's like a very obvious threat direction from the Finnish point of view.
- [12:21]
Anastasia Lopatyna
I imagine all of this history, as you said, affects how Finland is thinking through its security to this day. Is there anything that has been happening recently, like since Russia's full scale invasion that kind of shows Finland being even more aware of its security and even more kind of focusing on preparedness? In the recent years, I think that.
- [12:41]
Unnamed Expert
It'S been a really interesting situation for Finland to observe Russia's way of warfare in Ukraine and sort of like what lessons we need to learn from Ukraine because so many things have gone exactly as sort of like expected from the, the Finnish point of view. And it's also crazy like when you read sort of like accounts from the Winter War or the Continuation War, Russia was also back then like primarily targeting civilians.
- [13:12]
Anastasia Lopatyna
You know, I read that these quotes that like they were expecting the Finns to welcome them with flowers. And I thought that was like a Ukrainian joke, but it's like the same.
- [13:22]
Unnamed Expert
To the tea Shostoevsky I think it was, who had already like, you know, composed like a victory march because they expected to be marching in Helsinki like after two weeks later or something. And it's also really like, it's crazy how also already then it was this sort of like Russian way of warfare to target the civilian population. Trying to make it hard for like civilians to live. Like in Lapland, it's very sparsely populated and like the Soviet Union was sometimes bombing like single civilians if they could spot them there. So it's like crazy. So in that sense there's like, it was sort of like macabre how spot on the Finnish sort of assessment had been in the sense that Finland had invested into all the capabilities that Ukraine was also asking its partners to help it out with. Such as precisely the kind of large reserve, of course one thing that nobody can really help Ukraine with. But then beyond that, Finland has quite a strong air force and has been investing a lot in also air defense. Like different ranges and different ranges of like sort of also long range missile capability. And then artillery, like not that many European countries have much of artillery left anymore, but Finland has One of the largest artilleries in all of Europe still. So there's a lot of those things that Finland kept in place because that was sort of like the expectation obviously everything that is happening in Ukraine in terms of the unmanned systems is like a novelty and that there's like a lot of lessons for Finland to learn as well. But like on the more sort of like traditional side of things, like Finland is pretty well prepared for this type of warfare. And one thing that is really important also in this context is the civil defense part. It's sort of this, like mobilizing the whole of society as Ukraine has done, and at the same time trying to provide the conditions for civilian population to keep the economy going, keep life going, going in Ukraine. So this is something that Finland has invested a lot of energy and like attention to also after the Cold War, sort of like making sure that, that there is like civilian protection mechanisms and, and in what ways you, you can sort of like make sure that, that civilian life can continue even, even under the conditions of war. So those are some things. And of course then like for, for Finland, the biggest change was the NATO membership, obviously. So that was a direct reaction to Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. And it was definitely a red line that Russia crossed there. And I think that it's important where we also remind ourselves that we have red lines too. And that was one for Finland and that triggered the NATO membership. That has of course brought some changes along. Especially that because Finland's armed forces or the defence forces are to a like, very large extent based on the reservists, especially the land force is almost entirely reservists. So Finland will have to, for example, increase the number of professional officers. And like, you know, the standing force needs to grow a bit because now Finland has to send people to the, into the NATO structures and so on. So I would say that that's like maybe the, the biggest change. But in a way Finland joined exactly in the red moment because like now everybody realized that this kind of territorial threat and territorial defense is actually not obsolete and it can happen again in Europe and more countries actually would need that kind of ability to defend their territorial integrity. So the NATO membership didn't lead to as many changes because of that, because now it's sort of like actually the other way around that many other countries would like to have the same kind of defense system as Finland has. Yeah, so it would have been a very different situation, for example, to join NATO 20 years ago when the doctrine was a completely different one.
- [17:19]
Anastasia Lopatyna
We will Talk about NATO more because I think it's a crucial aspect of course of this conversation. But before we move on to that, I wanted to ask how have other Nordic and Baltic states been responding to Russia's obviously increasingly aggressive posture in Europe? What kind of infrastructure buildup we can say we've seen in Europe on the other side of that line recently, in the past few years.
- [17:46]
Unnamed Expert
So there's quite a lot happening in the Nordic Baltic region. So for example, the Baltic states have teamed up together and they're building this Baltic defense line, which is sort of like joint efforts to fortificate, build further fortifications along their shared border with Russia and Belarus. So that's one thing that's happening. They've been also sort of like jointly procuring certain military equipment among the Nordic countries. There's been this huge boost to this Nordic defense cooperation format that has existed already long before Russia's full scale war in Ukraine. But it has a completely new momentum now after Finland and Sweden joined NATO, because that sort of lifted a lot of sort of formal hurdles that have been there before. And what that has led to is really sort of significantly intensify cooperation among the Nordic countries to a point that they are starting actually to integrate their forces, not only to cooperate. So this is like a very important step, like when you, when you cross that threshold, basically. So Finland and Sweden have already had a very close relationship in the defense field because they were both outside of NATO. But now it has, has gotten like much closer also with Denmark and Norway. And like one very visible thing here is for example the, the joint operations center, the joint Nordic Operations center that is being set up in Norway for the air forces. So the air forces have now like a joint operational concept. And, and there are. Their aim is to be able to sort of like operate together in a fully integrated way. So you could imagine it as sort of a Nordic fleet. So they're not like they're not going to be fully integrated into one fleet. Each country has still their own air forces, but they can oper flexibly together and the command and control structure then now reflects that. Then you have seen Sweden and Norway for example, and Denmark, all of the three countries that had significantly decreased the number of their troops and scaled down their overall military capability after the Cold War. They have now really sort of ramped up their defence budget. So Norway just announced today, I think an increase up to 3.3% of GDP. Sweden has already reached something like 2.6 or so. And I believe that Denmark is also close to three at this point. So there's been this, especially over the course of the, I would say last year or so, there's been like really huge sort of like efforts by these three countries to as fast as possible, which is unfortunately often not very fast. So military capability development unfortunately often takes a very long time, but they have at least kicked off these processes. However, we have to also then of course remember that when you start at a very low level, even if you double your land force like Norway is doing, it means going from sort of 1.5 brigades to 3, which is still not much. But on the other hand there's also like, obviously the countries have different profiles and Norway is really investing quite massively in their maritime capability and their navy. So that's of course a really important contribution by Norway. All of these countries have reacted very clearly. I believe that Estonia has already reached 5% of GDP in defence spending and the other Baltic states are also closed. So you have seen this very massive ramping up of defense spending and these efforts to sort of like set up whole new brigades, both in Sweden and in Norway.
- [21:34]
Anastasia Lopatyna
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- [26:00]
Minna Olander
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- [26:33]
Anastasia Lopatyna
The accession of Sweden and Finland to NATO is of course a very positive thing for those countries and for NATO, but, but kind of the mechanics of that are also quite complicated. I think you and I have talked about this before, that it's not like you flip a switch or color a map. And now this is NATO territory. There is a whole lot of, as you've already started talking about in your previous answer, a lot of integrating that he has to do. And there are a lot of challenges, right, like getting the troops on the same kind of planning and whatever you weren't gamed before may no longer be relevant, right, because you have to kind of change your planning. Can you talk a bit about how that integration has been happening and, and what are some of the potential challenges there?
- [27:13]
Unnamed Expert
Yeah, sure. Actually here we like really nicely can sort of like circle back to where we started. And that was sort of like this whole infrastructure build up and why it's relevant because like, obviously the biggest change for NATO was that now that Finland and Sweden closed this gap that had been between Norway and the Baltic states, that had made it like much harder for NATO to sort of like plan coherently for this region. That's possible for the first time now. And that's like a huge game changer for the Baltic states, especially in their defense because there's all these famous war games from before 2022 which sort of like basically stated that like Russia could just sort of more or less walk into one of the Baltic states, grab some land, set up nuclear ultimatum to NATO and, and NATO would have a very hard time sort of like reconquering that territory. And then another thing was that in 2022, after the massacres of Bucha and Irpin, horrible war crimes that Russia committed in, in Ukraine, it became absolutely clear that this cannot anymore be the NATO strategy. Like, it's unacceptable to accept that some allied territory is first taken and then reconquered. So that's when NATO pledged in the new strategic concept that like NATO will defend every inch of allied territory at all times. And that's a bold statement, actually. It' big pledge. And it would have hardly been possible without having Finland and Sweden in NATO. So for example, when you look at it from the Baltic states point of view, you now have this whole new supply route from the north through Finland. Like you can imagine that this supply route, which is also one for Finland. So like you can reach Finland from the North Atlantic coast of Norway to Sweden and then basically down to Estonia. So it would be much harder now for Russia to cut off these, the Baltic states from the rest of NATO. Sweden's territory, like Sweden, is really long if you look at the maps. So Sweden really connects the whole region, like from the, from the high north down to the Danish straits. And it's in a really key position for any kind of logistics in the region. So that's really important too, like from the Baltic perspective or also like when you look at the potential northern front, that would be also including Norway. So Sweden really provides sort of like a land connection also. Well, not quite, but like through the Arizona bridge to Denmark also then to continental Europe. So Sweden is really important also because it also has, has a port in the North Sea, not only the Baltic Sea. All of this is, this is a huge win for NATO. And you see also how Russia has analyzed the situation and realized that Russia could hardly anymore sort of like do something in the Baltics in an isolated fashion without triggering like some action along the whole front line that is much longer now. And this is I think, like, why it's so sort of like worrisome to see this infrastructure build up on the Russian side because it shows that they also know what they're looking at. They are looking at the new situation where they have to sort of like think about the, the Arctic when they, when if they plan something in the Baltics. So this is a very significantly changed situation. And of course it has come with like some challenges like Finland and Sweden where like they had a very close partnership with NATO, but even the closest partner is still not an ally. So, so there were still like a lot of areas where Finland and Sweden were not, not in on the planning and so on. Plus that, that NATO started completely new planning process with these three regional plans, which it hasn't, hasn't had since the Cold War, basically. So this is all new on the NATO side and integrating Finland and Sweden into those plans is completely new. So in a way there's been like, it's been a mutual integration process. Like you have to integrate NATO into Finland and Sweden and then like Finland and Sweden into NATO. So it has been quite a transformational moment for NATO as well, especially because it coincides with this whole new planning.
- [31:21]
Anastasia Lopatyna
Process, when people talk about a possible Russian attack against NATO, they usually invoke several specific scenarios again and again, usually somewhere in the Baltics. Let's break down some of those scenarios, like what parts of Europe are perceived as sort of NATO's weakest point that Russia could potentially exploit.
- [31:40]
Unnamed Expert
Well, I mean, like, the Baltics have been a popular choice there because they have a very difficult geographical position because countries are simply so small, they have no strategic depth whatsoever. For example, right now, facing this really difficult dilemma, when you look at, again, the lessons from Ukraine, like the massive missile attacks, for example, and how important air defense is, the Baltic states don't have air forces of their own because the deal was sort of when they joined NATO, that NATO will provide this air policing for them and that if sort of it came to a head, like, NATO would come to their help and so on, because basically it would be hard to have air forces in the Baltic states because they would be so vulnerable to Russian missile attacks. Or then you would need, like, a very robust missile defense, which the Baltic states can't really right now afford. So this is, to be honest, the new Baltic scenario. Actually, like, when we consider the lessons from Ukraine, it's like this land grab is just one possibility and maybe not even the most likely one. And it's a much bigger question, sort of like how to set up a proper missile defense in the Baltic States that can't really afford it by themselves because, like, missile defense as it exists now, or like air defense systems like the Patriot, they're just, like, so expensive. So this is a huge challenge for the small Baltic state. So that has been a very popular idea. Then, of course, right now, when we're looking at what's happening. So Moldova is right next to Ukraine, sort of like between Ukraine and Romania or in. In the Black Sea region there. So there is one possibility, of course, that, that the Black Sea could take a worse turn again. And there have been already some Russian drones and other things falling into either, like sort of violating Romanian airspace or falling into Romanian territory. This has also happened in the Baltic. So. So that's one possible angle. And then there's, of course, like the. The northern dimension as well. There's this Norwegian island, Svalbard, which is a demilitarized island with some, like, Russian presence there, because there is a Russian community. According to the Svalbard Treaty, any nation that is a signatory to this treaty has the right to have commercial activity on this, on this archipelago. So that's also one tricky Sort of angle for NATO, because Svalbard is very far of, like, I think, some thousand kilometers off the Norwegian northern coast mainland highway. So it's like, really far away up in the Arctic. Not many people live there. And sort of like, definitely this huge article 5 security guarantee question would be. Because technically, Soalbard nevertheless is Article 5 territory. Like, how many NATO nations would be willing to go to war with Russia over Swalbard? So there are multiple scenarios. There was also, like, some ideas that maybe northern Finland could also be one of those places where Russia could somehow.
- [34:47]
Anastasia Lopatyna
Like, make a buffer zone or whatever.
- [34:49]
Unnamed Expert
Yeah. Or like, somehow go in a little bit and poke around.
- [34:54]
Anastasia Lopatyna
There is also this stretch of land between Belarus and Poland that's pretty important. Stretching from Kaliningrad.
- [35:00]
Unnamed Expert
Yes. Walking up. Yeah. That was like, one of the very popular Baltic scenarios as well, that Russia would use that Suwalki gap, going to the Russian exclave, Kaliningrad, to cut off the Baltic state. So that's. That's one of these classic scenarios. And then there was this idea about northern Finland. But I personally, as a Finn, think that it would be interesting if they tried, because it's not like they would never dare. Well, let's just say that it's not like it's like no man's land, where, like, nobody's looking into. I mean, like, we have a very significant air base, one of the largest artillery exercise ranges in northern Finland. And the new NATO forward land force contingent that will be placed in Finland will also be in the northern part of Finland. So there will be a lot going on there that should hopefully deter Russia from any such ideas.
- [35:50]
Anastasia Lopatyna
You've already mentioned that the Baltics are extremely vulnerable and they rely on NATO a lot. And I think here we should talk about the role the US Place in NATO and the effect that Trump has had on the alliance in the past few months since he was reelected. So it's clear that the Trump administration wants to pull back from Europe and kind of relieve itself of responsibility of looking after Europe. So in the event of a Russian attack and a Hypothetical 1 in 5 or 10 years, what role would the US play in that NATO response? And what does that mean? What does the Trump behavior right now mean for that response? How does Europe now need to kind of replan its actions if the US Just says we're staying out of it?
- [36:40]
Unnamed Expert
This is indeed the question. I was already starting to feel a little weird about talking about the situation as it was in the good old times a couple months ago still, because it has radically changed from A European perspective. I would say that for the Europeans right now, the most important thing is to avoid any kind of disorderly withdrawal of the United States from NATO, because Europe needs time to figure this out for itself. And Europe needs time to build up the capability on the continent to take more responsibility for its own defense and to figure out what to do a lot of the enablers and strategic capabilities that the US has traditionally provided. So that's going to take a bit of time, and the more time Europe can buy, the better. And that sort of explains also why Europeans are trying to avoid directly antagonizing Trump and his administration, which might look sort of like a little bit of appeasement sometimes, or that they are bowing too deep to Trump or something. But I have to say that European diplomats have my sympathy because it is a very, very difficult situation.
- [37:50]
Anastasia Lopatyna
And can you just explain exactly what role the US Plays in the NATO security infrastructure in there is a nuclear component. There is, you know, as you've said, like an air force, air defense component, military bases. Can you just, like, describe it in verse?
- [38:04]
Unnamed Expert
Sure. The US Has a number of bases in Europe, like both air bases and others that are very important, like actually also for the US for, for American ability to project power globally. So that's one important element. And then like, the most important thing, of course, is the nuclear deterrence, the extended deterrence that the US US Offers its treaty allies, the so called nuclear umbrella, because that is sort of like the basis of the deterrence that NATO provides to its members. And it has been extremely detrimental already now that Trump has started sort of like adding some conditions to, like, to whom this deterrence still applies and under which conditions, like, let's say, like whether a country spend enough or not, or, or things like that. So that already has undermined the credibility of this extended deterrent. And this is a big issue for Europe because obviously we want to try to make sure that Russia feels sufficiently deterred so that it does not start a war with Europe and that it does not go as far as to test NATO's Article 5 and the Trump administration and its sort of like, occasionally open hostility towards Europe is like an invitation. So that's why I was saying that it's like, still, from the European perspective, it's important to try and make sure that the US doesn't sort of like in a disorderly fashion, exit NATO next month, because that would then be exactly the kind of opening for Russia that they would be wishing to see. So as long as the US Is in NATO, at least Sort of like officially, like one could hope that there is some level of uncertainty about like a possible US response left, although it looks increasingly unlikely that they would really do anything to help their European allies in a case of war. So this is maybe the most important thing that the US is providing. And this is exactly for all the like, very exposed, smaller allies like the Baltic states. This has been incredibly important that they can rely on, on the United States and that this commitment to the extended nuclear deterrent is really like ironclad. And even this current level of sort of discreditation of that commitment is a huge blow for the whole alliance. And it requires quite a significant rethink, of course. But then beyond that, the US has a very important conventional role as well. The idea is, for example, in these defence plans that, for example, in the Nordic region, the Nordic countries are trying to build up, like, robust first responder sort of force so that the US maybe doesn't have to be present all the time, like with boots on the ground. But the expectation was that there would be reinforcements and supplies from the United States to the region in a case of war. So there is this idea. I mean, like, the Americans have been incredibly present in exercise activities and stuff in Northern Finland, let's say, or like in the other Nordic countries as well. And. And there has been like this expectation that of course, like, the US is basically also the conventional backstop, at least. And. And like, you could say that the US has been the superglue that keeps it all together. So when that is gone, it's. It's a. It's a challenge obviously, to figure out how to think of all of these things without the US because it's. The US has been like such a, like really central and significant player in all the defense plans for Europe. So it's hard to wrap your head around this very sudden and very radical change.
- [42:00]
Anastasia Lopatyna
Well, I'm a bit sad that we're ending on kind of a bad note. Well, those are the times.
- [42:07]
Unnamed Expert
Yes, indeed.
- [42:08]
Anastasia Lopatyna
Thank you so much, Minna. This was really interesting.
- [42:11]
Unnamed Expert
Thank you.
- [42:15]
Anastasia Lopatyna
The LoveFair podcast is produced in cooperation with the Brookings Institute. You can get ad free versions of this and other love affair podcasts by becoming a LoveFair material supporter through our website, lovefairmedia.org support. You will also get access to special events and other content available only to our supporters. Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Look out for our other shows, including Rational Security, Allies, the Aftermath and Escalation. Our latest Lover Presents podcast series about the war in Ukraine. Check out our written work@lovefairmedia.org the podcast is edited by Gen Pacha and our audio engineer. This episode was Goat Rodeo. Our theme song is from Alibi Music. As always, thank you for listening.
- [43:07]
Paige
If you're anything like us, you love attention. And my favorite way to get all eyes on me is with next level shiny, glossy hair.
- [43:15]
Unnamed Expert
Which is why we're so excited to tell y' all about the new Lamellar.
- [43:18]
Anastasia Lopatyna
Gloss collection from the girlies at Tresemme.
- [43:21]
Paige
And Gigglers, we've got you too, because Tresemme partnered with us to bring you 1-800-gloss, a special bonus episode of Giggly Squad, where Hannah and I give advice on all things hair and giving gloss. Check out the episode and grab the Lamellar Gloss collection today because I'm officially declaring this spring gloss season.