Summary of "Lawfare Daily: Oona Hathaway on the Collapse of Norms Against the Use of Force"
Episode: Lawfare Daily: Oona Hathaway on the Collapse of Norms Against the Use of Force
Released: August 6, 2025
Host: Mihaila Soldatenko
Guest: Oona Hathaway, Law Professor at Yale Law School and President-Elect of the American Society of International Law
Podcast: The Lawfare Podcast by The Lawfare Institute
1. Introduction to the Collapse of Norms Against the Use of Force
In this episode, Mihaila Soldatenko engages in a profound discussion with Yale Law Professor Oona Hathaway about the erosion of international norms that prohibit the use of force. They explore the historical foundations of international law, recent global events threatening these norms, and the potential consequences for the international order.
2. Historical Context: From the Old to the New World Order
Old World Order: Hathaway begins by contrasting the "old world order" with the contemporary international system. She explains:
"The old world order... was a world in which war was legal and the main method for states to resolve disputes. Hugo Grotius, known as the father of international law, even advocated war as a means to right wrongs and pursue legal rights."
[02:06]
Transition to the New World Order: The shift began with the Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928, which outlawed war as national policy:
"The Kellogg-Briand Pact... renounced the right to resort to war as a tool of national policy, fundamentally transforming the international legal system."
[04:10]
This transformation laid the groundwork for the United Nations Charter, embedding the prohibition of force and establishing a legal framework for peaceful international relations.
3. The Importance of Norms Against the Use of Force
Hathaway emphasizes the foundational role of the prohibition on force:
"The prohibition on force is the foundational norm of the international legal order. It underpins rules against conquest, coercive diplomacy, and supports peaceful mechanisms like trade and diplomacy."
[08:26]
She asserts that weakening this norm leads to a more unstable and chaotic world where states cannot trust their neighbors to refrain from aggression.
4. Critique of Realist Perspectives on International Law
Addressing critiques from realists like Stephen Walt, who argue that international law is less significant than power dynamics, Hathaway responds:
"Power creates law and reinforces it. The United States, for example, was a key advocate of the modern legal order, shaping it to serve collective interests beyond mere power politics."
[12:02]
She counters the realist view by illustrating how international law facilitates sustained peace through mutual trust and economic interdependence, challenging the notion that power alone dictates state behavior.
5. The U.S. Administration's Role in Maintaining International Order
Hathaway discusses the impact of the Trump administration's policies on international norms:
"The Trump administration has not only pulled back from policing the international order but has also made derogatory remarks about its principles, such as referring to Canada as a 'fifty-first state.' This rhetoric undermines the foundational norms."
[17:26]
She points out that unilateral and coercive actions by the U.S. erode global trust and encourage other states to disregard international norms.
6. Specific Cases Undermining the Norms
Threats Against Canada and Greenland: Hathaway analyzes the implications of threats like making Canada a "fifty-first state" and asserting claims over Greenland:
"Such threats are corrosive because they suggest that the prohibition on the use of force is dispensable, leading other states to question the reliability of international norms."
[27:58]
Strikes on Iran: Discussing the U.S. strikes on Iran, Hathaway critiques the legality under international law:
"Under Article 51 of the UN Charter, self-defense requires an actual or imminent armed attack. The strikes on Iran lacked clear evidence of an imminent threat, making them unlawful."
[30:19]
Collective Self-Defense Claims: She challenges the argument that these actions are justified under collective self-defense:
"For the U.S. to act in collective self-defense on behalf of Israel, there must first be a clear right of self-defense invoked by Israel, which was not adequately demonstrated."
[41:49]
7. International Community's Response and Its Impact
Hathaway observes the varied international responses to the U.S.'s actions:
"European leaders like Merkel and Rutte downplayed the legal violations, while Ukraine refrained from labeling the strikes as legal or illegal, indicating a selective support for norms based on national interests."
[43:27]
This selective endorsement weakens the universal application of international law, fostering a perception of hypocrisy and diminishing collective resolve to uphold norms.
8. Future Implications for the International Order
Potential Outcomes of Norm Erosion: Hathaway warns of a more volatile world:
"Without confidence in the prohibition of force, states cannot rely on peaceful mechanisms, leading to increased military conflicts and instability."
[08:26]
Pathways Forward: She advocates for a collective effort beyond U.S. primacy to uphold international norms:
"The survival of the international system depends on more states stepping up to support and reinforce these norms, rather than relying solely on the U.S. to police the order."
[60:27]
9. Recommendations for Strengthening International Norms
Hathaway suggests actionable steps to mitigate the crisis:
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Coalition Building in the General Assembly: By forming coalitions of small and medium states, the international community can push back against norm erosion.
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Reinforcing Legal Commitments: States must prioritize legal and moral commitments over power politics to restore trust and maintain a stable order.
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Innovative Diplomatic Tools: Enhancing mechanisms like economic sanctions and outcasting to address illegal state behaviors without resorting to force.
10. Conclusion: Hope Amidst Challenges
Despite the grim outlook, Hathaway remains cautiously optimistic:
"There are opportunities for other states to come forward and support the international legal order, ensuring that principles like the prohibition on force are upheld collectively."
[61:09]
She underscores the importance of global solidarity in preserving the established norms and preventing a descent into chaos.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps
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On the Old vs. New World Order:
"War was legal and the main way... resolving disputes. Hugo Grotius... advocated war as a means to pursue legal rights."
[02:06] -
On the Kellogg-Briand Pact:
"The Kellogg-Briand Pact renounced the right to resort to war as a tool of national policy, fundamentally transforming the international legal system."
[04:10] -
On the Foundational Norms:
"The prohibition on force is the foundational norm of the international legal order."
[08:26] -
On Realist Critiques:
"Power creates law and reinforces it... facilitating sustained peace through mutual trust and economic interdependence."
[12:02] -
On U.S. Threats:
"Threats like making Canada a 'fifty-first state' undermine global trust and encourage disregard for international norms."
[27:58] -
On Strikes on Iran:
"The strikes on Iran lacked clear evidence of an imminent threat, making them unlawful under Article 51."
[30:19] -
On International Community's Selective Support:
"Selective endorsement weakens the universal application of international law, fostering a perception of hypocrisy."
[43:27] -
On Pathways Forward:
"The survival of the international system depends on more states stepping up to support and reinforce these norms."
[60:27] -
On Hope:
"There are opportunities for other states to come forward and support the international legal order."
[61:09]
Final Thoughts
Oona Hathaway provides a comprehensive analysis of how recent actions by powerful states, particularly the United States, threaten to dismantle entrenched international norms against the use of force. She underscores the importance of collective global responsibility in upholding these norms to maintain international stability and peace. While highlighting the challenges posed by unilateral policies and selective support, Hathaway remains hopeful that a broader coalition of states can reinvigorate and strengthen the international legal order.