The Lawfare Podcast: Prosecuting Terrorism and the Pursuit of Justice, with Jake Tapper
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Michael Feinberg (Lawfare Institute)
Guest: Jake Tapper (CNN’s Chief Correspondent, Author of Race Against Chasing an Al Qaeda Killer at the Dawn of the Forever War)
Episode Overview
In this episode, host Michael Feinberg sits down with CNN’s Jake Tapper to discuss his new book about the groundbreaking investigation, prosecution, and conviction of an Al Qaeda operative—known as Spin Ghoul—in a U.S. civilian court. The conversation traces the story’s personal origins, the legal and political complexities of prosecuting foreign terrorists, the function of the Justice Department, and the book’s broader significance for national security and American ideals of justice. The discussion also covers the challenges of trying terrorism cases in criminal courts versus military tribunals, the legacy of Guantanamo, and the human costs of terrorism.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Genesis of the Book and The Real-Life Thriller
[03:30-08:33]
- How Tapper Found the Story: Tapper recounts hearing the story from a fellow parent at a paintball birthday party. The man told him about the case of Dave Bitkower, an Assistant U.S. Attorney involved in the prosecution of an Al Qaeda terrorist nicknamed Spin Ghoul, captured in Italy during the Arab Spring.
- Detective Work Focus: Tapper notes the underreported “detective work” of FBI agents, U.S. attorneys, and investigators in tracking, building the case, and ultimately securing the conviction.
“To a civilian, it was just really just a great yarn. And that's what I tried to write... as if it's a fictional thriller, a page turner, but it's all true.”
—Jake Tapper [07:59]
- Intentions as an Author: Tapper brings a novelist’s storytelling sense to nonfiction while consciously refusing to make “a political book,” focusing instead on the teamwork and dedication needed to achieve justice.
2. The Prosecutorial Process: Teamwork and Justice Department Culture
[08:33-10:26]
- Team Over Turf: Feinberg, a former FBI agent, praises the book for capturing the collaborative—rather than adversarial—nature of real investigations:
“This is the sort of book...I would readily give to friends or family who wanted to understand the sort of things on which I worked that I could never talk about.”
—Michael Feinberg [08:41]
- Tapper highlights how the book ended up as a “love letter to a functioning Justice Department,” a not-so-subtle lament about the current state of affairs.
3. International Cooperation, Diplomatic Hurdles, and Changing Political Context
[10:34-16:57]
- Italy’s Reluctance and Conditions: The Italian government only cooperated under strict conditions—no transfer to Gitmo, no military commissions, and no death penalty—reflecting Europe’s skepticism toward Bush-era counterterrorism methods.
- Historical Context: Tapper draws the link to prior U.S.-Italian friction over CIA renditions, most notably the Abu Omar case:
“The Italians were mad at the Americans... for any number of reasons having to do with the war on terror.”
—Jake Tapper [11:17]
- Obama’s Policy Shift: Obama’s administration wanted to try terrorists in civilian courts as “proof of concept” for American values, running into bipartisan political resistance at home. The prosecution of Spin Ghoul became a test case.
4. Jurisdictional Intricacies and Prosecutorial Expertise
[18:20-21:09]
- Choosing Where to Try a Case: Discussion about how “DAG fights” determine which U.S. Attorney’s office gets a case—usually based on geography or investigative history.
- Feinberg and Tapper both extol the value of prosecutorial and investigative experience in such high-stakes cases, especially at top-tier national security offices.
5. Leadership, Experience, and Politicization in DOJ
[21:09-26:41]
- The Importance of “Institutional Memory”: Tapper singles out legendary DOJ figure George Toscas, who insisted on rigorous standards—drawing lessons from his own failed prosecution in the past.
- Politicization & Turnover: Tapper expresses alarm at the Trump administration’s purging of seasoned prosecutors, including Michael Ben Ari (Jafar case) and Toscas, in favor of those deemed loyal to the president.
“I hope that they are replacing Michael Ben Ari with prosecutors who know what they're doing. But I have my doubts because it seems like all they care about is loyalty to Trump and not expertise in locking away terrorists.”
—Jake Tapper [25:51]
6. The Unique Complexity of Terrorism Prosecutions
[30:17-33:37]
- Beyond Law & Order: Feinberg describes for listeners why national security prosecutions require a specialized skill set: navigating classified information, foreign evidence, endangered sources, and high stakes.
- Tapper observes the immense difficulty and resourcefulness required to build cases like Spin Ghoul—noting how much could have gone wrong.
7. The Motivation: Honoring Victims and Public Service
[40:11-43:38]
- The Human Story: Tapper spends a large part of his book with the soldiers—particularly the victims from the 82nd Airborne—to put a human face on national security issues. He shares emotional details, such as Agent Rashauna Muhammad keeping a photo of a pink chicken (a lighthearted memory from the slain Private Jared Dennis) to keep herself motivated.
“A sweet soul had been taken from this earth, and the pink chicken reminded her of Jared Dennis.”
—Jake Tapper [42:09]
- Loretta Lynch’s Perspective: Lynch wanted to ensure that families of victims like Lozano and Dennis would feel cared for and not ignored by the justice system.
8. Maintaining Objectivity and the Trial’s Purpose
[43:38-48:16]
- Avoiding Political Advocacy: Both Feinberg and Tapper discuss their efforts not to politicize the victims or the story.
“You can bring whatever you want to the story and you'll find evidence to support your point of view. But that’s not my job. My job is just to tell the story and to include all those points of view.”
—Jake Tapper [46:01]
- Judge Kogan’s Candid Interview: Tapper notes that even the trial judge viewed the proceeding as a “show trial” for Obama—yet offered his candid thoughts for the record.
- Speculation on Gitmo: Tapper argues that had Spin Ghoul been sent to Guantanamo, he might have been released as so many others were, lacking a robust evidentiary record.
9. Statistical Track Record: Courts vs. Gitmo
[48:16-48:50]
- Civilian vs. Military Justice: Tapper points out the relative paucity of convictions at Guantanamo (two, plus some plea deals)—contrasted with over 600 terrorism convictions in civilian courts, highlighting the practical strengths of the latter system.
10. The Abu Zubaydah Raid: Process Matters
[50:09-53:12]
- Usable Evidence: Tapper tells how key evidence from the Abu Zubaydah raid in Pakistan remained admissible thanks to FBI, not CIA, procedures.
- John Kiriakou’s Story: While not speculating about his shift in opinion, Tapper shows how the CIA’s use of torture made prosecutions impossible, as opposed to the FBI’s strict adherence to legal protocols.
11. Lessons for the Future—Justice Makes Us Safer
[54:16-57:34]
- Unique Case, Unique Lessons: Tapper reflects on Spin Ghoul’s case as the only example (to date) of a foreign terrorist tried for killing Americans abroad in a civilian court.
- Systemic Takeaways: The main lesson for him: thorough, painstaking adherence to American legal process and evidentiary standards makes the U.S. safer, even if the path “can take a while and can be bureaucratic and annoying.”
“Our system of jurisprudence, while it can take a while and can be bureaucratic and annoying, makes us safer.”
—Jake Tapper [57:30]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“I tried to take some of the lessons I’ve learned from writing fiction and apply it here and write this as if it’s a fictional thriller, a page turner, but it’s all true.”
—Jake Tapper [07:59] -
“It ended up also being a love letter to a functioning Justice Department, which I don’t know we have now.”
—Jake Tapper [10:12] -
“They were cooperative with the Americans in the sense that they wanted America to get this guy and lock him up. They were eager for him to leave. They didn’t want to be housing him any longer than they had to.”
—Jake Tapper [13:08] -
“One of the things I did learn is this isn’t easy. And it is really important to have experts...You want the best prosecutors. And...the best FBI investigators as well.”
—Jake Tapper [21:48] -
“If you were an FBI agent, an assistant U.S. attorney, whatever, trying to get a tough prosecution okayed, ... Getting George Toscas to sign off on it, that was your big hurdle because he was the hard ass in the Justice Department.”
—Jake Tapper [22:36] -
“I don’t know how they’re going to do Jafar. I wish them success…but you can’t just put an insurance attorney from Florida who’s maga loyal and expect that this is...going to go well.”
—Jake Tapper [31:13] -
“The idea that [George Toscas] is not going to help the Jafar prosecution makes us less safe. There’s no politics involved in this. I’m not saying this from an anti-Trump perspective. I don’t even know what George Toscas politics are.”
—Jake Tapper [33:37]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 03:30 — Tapper recounts how he first heard the Spin Ghoul story
- 08:33 — Feinberg on the accuracy of Tapper’s depiction of investigations
- 11:32 — Italy’s motivations and constraints on extradition
- 14:55 — Obama’s civilian-court policy and political resistance
- 21:09 — Tapper on the need for experience in terrorism prosecutions
- 25:51 — Tapper decries politicization and firing of prosecutors
- 40:11 — Tapper discusses the focus on telling the victims’ stories and the emotional heart of the book
- 42:09 — The pink chicken story (motivation and humanity in prosecution)
- 46:01 — On maintaining neutrality and letting facts speak for themselves
- 48:16 — Guantanamo’s track record vs civilian court’s
- 50:09 — Evidence from the Abu Zubaydah raid and the pitfalls of torture
- 54:16 — Tapper’s main lesson from the case: systematized, painstaking justice improves national security
Conclusion
Jake Tapper and Michael Feinberg guide listeners through the extraordinary story of the first international terrorist ever convicted in a U.S. civilian court for killing Americans abroad, drawn from Tapper’s new book. Along the way, they illuminate the legal, political, and human complexities of counterterrorism justice in an era when the integrity of institutions is in flux. By centering not just the prosecution but also the victims and the public servants involved, Tapper presents an accessible, nuanced view into how America can—and sometimes struggles—to bring its ideals to bear in the pursuit of justice.