The Lawfare Podcast: Detailed Summary of "Lawfare Daily: Shane Harris Talks ‘Houthi PC Small Group’"

Episode Information

• Title: Lawfare Daily: Shane Harris Talks ‘Houthi PC Small Group’
• Release Date: March 26, 2025
• Host: The Lawfare Institute (Benjamin Wittes)
• Guest: Shane Harris, National Security Correspondent for The Atlantic

1. Introduction to the Houthi PC Small Group

In this episode, Benjamin Wittes engages in an in-depth conversation with Shane Harris regarding the controversial "Houthi PC Small Group," a Signal messaging thread used by high-level U.S. national security officials for coordinating military actions in Yemen against the Houthi forces. This discussion stems from a blockbuster story by Jeffrey Goldberg in The Atlantic, which exposed the use of an unsecured messaging platform for sensitive military operations.

Key Points:

• Background: The Houthi PC Small Group was created by Michael Waltz, the National Security Advisor, for coordinating military actions in Yemen.
• Purpose: The group included top officials such as the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State, CIA Director, DNI, and Treasury Secretary, facilitating real-time discussions on military strategies and strike orders.

2. Security Concerns with Using Signal for Classified Communications

Shane Harris elaborates on the inherent security risks associated with using Signal, a secure messaging application, for transmitting classified or sensitive government information.

Notable Quotes:

• Harris (02:16): "The information that I saw, based in my experience of having seen classified information… this information, in my estimation, would be presumptively classified."
• Wittes (05:10): "Most of us, when we are planning something with a group of people, we set up a Facebook messenger group or a WhatsApp group or an iMessage group… what's wrong with the intelligence and kinetic military leadership of the United States doing exactly that?"

Key Concerns Highlighted:

1. Unauthorized Access: Signal is not officially approved for classified communications, making it vulnerable to unauthorized additions. Harris notes, "it is trivially easy to add the wrong person to your group… which of course is what happened in this case" (06:15).
2. Device Security: Even with end-to-end encryption, the security of the devices themselves is a concern. Compromised devices can lead to leaks, as Harris explains, "the device itself is not secure" (08:02).
3. Portability Issues: Using Signal on mobile devices increases the risk of exposure, especially when devices are taken abroad or used in unsecured environments. Harris states, "everything is less secure when you're in an unsecured environment" (08:15).

3. The Origin of the Story and Harris' Involvement

Shane Harris recounts how he became involved in uncovering the details of the Houthi PC Small Group after Jeff Goldberg of The Atlantic was added to the Signal thread. Initially suspecting a hoax, Harris and Wittes collaborated to investigate the authenticity and implications of the messages exchanged within the group.

Notable Quotes:

• Harris (12:18): "Jeff came to me not long after he had been initially contacted by Mike Waltz… what do you make of this?"
• Harris (15:26): "At no point did anyone say, you can't publish this… We did make clear in some instances that we were withholding to the relevant people certain information."

Key Points:

• Initial Skepticism: Both Harris and Goldberg initially doubted the authenticity of the Signal group, considering the possibility of an elaborate hoax.
• Confirmation of Authenticity: As military strikes commenced, the group’s legitimacy became evident, prompting further investigation into the security lapses.
• Journalistic Responsibility: Harris and Goldberg decided to report the story responsibly, withholding certain sensitive details to prevent further security breaches.

4. Administration's Reaction and Denials

Following the publication of the story, high-ranking officials within the U.S. administration, including the Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, DNI Tulsi Gabbard, CIA Director John Ratcliffe, and spokesperson Caroline Levitt, publicly denied the presence of classified information within the Signal thread.

Notable Quotes:

• Harris (17:19): "The information that I saw… this information, in my estimation, would be presumptively classified."
• Harris (19:55): "If I had gathered it by reporting… I would have… go to the relevant agency and say, look, here's what I have."

Key Points:

• Denial of Classified Information: Officials categorically stated that no classified material was shared within the group, contradicting Harris’ assessment.
• Inconsistent Testimonies: While some officials admitted to using Signal, they downplayed its appropriateness for sensitive communications. Harris challenges the veracity of these statements, asserting, "This information clearly maps onto those descriptions [of classified info]" (19:43).
• Implications of Denials: Harris suggests that these denials may be attempts to deflect accountability and avoid scrutiny over the security breach.

5. Potential FBI Involvement and Investigation

The discussion moves towards the likelihood of an FBI investigation into the leak of sensitive national security information and the administration's apparent reluctance to pursue accountability.

Notable Quotes:

• Harris (39:06): "If this were any ordinary situation… the FBI would presume that it would investigate what happened here."
• Harris (41:53): "One possibility might be because they know there's not going to be any accountability for it… they have no expectation that they'll be scrutinized for it."

Key Points:

• Standard Protocols Ignored: Typically, leaks of classified information trigger FBI investigations, but there appears to be a lack of response in this case.
• Administration's Stance: The National Security Council mentioned investigating how a journalist was added to the thread, but did not address the broader implications of the leak.
• Future Implications: Harris anticipates that releasing the thread could provide undeniable evidence of the misuse of Signal for classified communications, potentially leading to legal repercussions for involved officials.

6. Future Reporting and Ethical Considerations

Harris emphasizes the ethical responsibility of journalists to handle sensitive information judiciously and the potential impact of publishing the Signal thread.

Notable Quotes:

• Harris (28:13): "We have a responsibility, an obligation ethically, to be responsible with this information and how we handle it."
• Wittes (35:01): "Either you guys are fraudsters or they're lying… there is an objective answer to this question that is available."

Key Points:

• Ethical Reporting: The importance of balancing the public's right to know with national security concerns is underscored.
• Potential Consequences: Harris warns that publishing the thread could expose classified or sensitive information, risking lives and national security.
• Administrative Accountability: The administration's conflicting statements heighten the stakes, suggesting that further investigation and transparency are necessary.

7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with an acknowledgment of the unprecedented nature of the situation and the challenges it poses for journalistic integrity and national security.

Notable Quotes:

• Harris (44:35): "There are some real national security equities that these officials ought to be taking more seriously."
• Wittes (44:35): "Jeff referred to this person using female pronouns. So I will do the same. In his Bulwark interview…"

Key Points:

• Unprecedented Leak: Both Wittes and Harris express astonishment at the extent of the leak and the administration's response.
• Ongoing Investigation: The potential for further disclosures and official investigations remains, with implications for national security protocols.
• Future Episodes: The podcast hints at continued coverage and analysis as the situation develops.

Notable Insights and Conclusions:

• Security Protocol Lapses: The use of unsecured messaging platforms like Signal for classified communications represents a significant security vulnerability.
• Administrative Accountability: The administration's inconsistent and dismissive responses may hinder accountability and necessary reforms.
• Journalistic Responsibility: Reporters like Harris and Wittes navigate the delicate balance between exposing wrongdoing and safeguarding national security interests.
• Implications for National Security: Such breaches undermine trust in communication protocols and could have tangible consequences for military operations and international relations.

This episode of The Lawfare Podcast provides a comprehensive examination of the Houthi PC Small Group incident, highlighting critical security lapses, administrative responses, and the ethical challenges faced by journalists in reporting on sensitive national security issues.