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The Leadership Dance
Ep. 13: How to build a career you love, with Lindsay Trout
00:30:38
Season 2 of The Leadership Dance kicks off with an illuminating conversation with Lindsay Trout, Partner at Egon Zehnder, a global executive search and leadership advisory firm. Throughout the episode, Lindsay shares her expertise and insights on...
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- [00:01]
Lindsay Trout
Don't get good at things you don't enjoy. That is just so spot on, Right? And what that requires is for us all to really, like, pay attention to ourselves and listen to ourselves. Right? What brings us joy and what doesn't. So when we're driving home from work or reflecting on our week, was it a great day? Okay. What made it great? What was the moments that I loved and would love to replicate it. So learn about yourself, about what brings you joy and doesn't, and then try to build your life and your context and your environment around those things. That is so important.
- [00:38]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Hi and welcome back to the Leadership Dance. If you enjoy the show, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'm Alisa sue lynch and today I'm excited to speak with Lindsey Trout. Lindsey is a senior partner at Agon Zender, where she works across the firm's consumer and technology practices, advising on talent agendas in the board and C suite across business models ranging from media to retail platforms to software. As a service, Lindsey built the firm's founder Services practice, supporting founder led businesses with coaching, team building and succession planning. She also built and led the global digital practice, advising enterprises and disruptive scale ups on talent and board composition. Before Joining Egon Zender 15 years ago, Lindsay was a project leader at BCG and served as chief of staff to the CEO of FileNet, now a division of IBM. She began her career at JPMorgan Chase and holds an MBA from Stanford and a Bachelor of Science from UVA. Originally from Charleston, South Carolina, she has lived in New York, London, and Shanghai and now resides in the Bay Area with her husband, two daughters, and their dog, Snoopy. Welcome to the podcast, Lindsay.
- [01:52]
Lindsay Trout
Elisa, thank you so much for having me.
- [01:54]
Elisa Sue Lynch
So I'd love to start by finding out what was your childhood like and what were your dreams? How did your upbringing shape how you approached your career?
- [02:03]
Lindsay Trout
Oh, great question. So as you mentioned, I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, which was a bit less cosmopolitan then it was a bit smaller, it felt a bit more sheltered. It was a very hospitable community. But it was also one of those places where kind of everyone knows your name. You know the dentist socially, you know the, you know, all the doctors and the lawyers socially. And so it felt a bit small. But what was good is as a child and a girl growing up, you did feel safe. What you did feel is like constraint and there was a lot of etiquette growing up in the south, being trained as a debutante, learning, speaking of dancing, taking cotillion when you're, you know, in fourth grade and learning ballroom dancing, I still haven't found good use for my foxtrot skills. Hopefully that pays off. But nonetheless, there was a lot of like, shoulds, protocols, etiquette. And I think as I felt constrained as a little girl, there it was around pushing boundaries, you know, saying, hey, can I do this summer program in Alaska? And then I'd go to Alaska and then I'd say, okay, mom, can I do this, you know, summer program in China? Again, just like trying to push the boundaries of like learning and kind of getting beyond what felt a bit small, confining and Charleston. But I think that that was perfect because it stretches you from kind of an environment of shoulds to kind of a context of coulds. And this has become a lot of like, my mantra as I'm trying to coach others today is kind of be wary of feeling should. Right? And you need to kind of strip that sense of duty and empower yourself around what you could do. So I think I dreamt about what it was beyond, but it wasn't like specific. You know, my mom was a math teacher, my dad was an OB gyn. My sister was certain she was going to be a doctor. And I was just, well, kind of uncertain. I had no idea. But I do remember seeing, I went to an all girls elementary school and I remember seeing this woman take the stage and I remember being in awe because she seemed like cool and calm and collected and an incredible communicator. And I still can't remember what she did, but I remember in that moment being like, maybe I could do that, whatever it is. So I found my way to business.
- [04:05]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Wow, I love that. It sounds like you had such an adventurous spirit as a young girl. And I think that follows us through our life and definitely into the workplace. What we think we should be doing, what we think we could be doing, and how do you move from one to the other? Can you share now though a little bit more about your career journey and talk about the pivotal moments in your career that led you to specialize in digital transformation and leadership advisory?
- [04:32]
Lindsay Trout
I will say I think anyone's career, regardless of how well intentioned and planful one may be, you have to leave the space for serendipity. And I think I was very attentive to hearing opportunities, observing opportunities, or being attentive to those invitations and saying yes. And the second thing I would say before I dive into the examples is I believe a lot in the context of one's career and the timing of it. So for example, I started my career in a leadership development program at Chase and this was again providing me optionality because I didn't know what I wanted to do. But business seemed like the route, like the broad route. And so this allowed me to do projects across the organization at the senior levels. And it happened to be that it was 2000, so it was all things.com related and it was all things Chase acquiring JP Morgan and Post merger integration matters. And so that was the context. A girl who didn't know what she wanted to do but had ambitions and a lot of curiosity was like absorbed into this technology revolution, the ups and downs. And then I was this hyper observant and sensitive person trying to figure out what is this cultural collision like how are these leaders going to bring these two businesses together. One plus one is equal to three. So I think that that really set the stage for me and as is true for everyone, they're the people, right? Who those are the pivots. There's the context and it's the pivots and it's the people like Amit Patel and Lee Roberts and many others who saw in a little girl coming from Charleston that I could do more and they gave me more and I took on more. And that goes back into the yes, yes, yes. And I think I said yes to many things that I was maybe not yet ready for, but I found my way.
- [06:18]
Elisa Sue Lynch
So how incredible that you were able to get such amazing experience early in your career. I think you know, 2000 with the dot com era working on JP Morgan and Chase coming together. Those are massive learning experiences and I'm sure it's informed you as you've moved through your career. You are now a partner at Agon Zender, a leading global executive search firm. How did you land there and can you share what you're excited about that you're working on now?
- [06:48]
Lindsay Trout
Absolutely. I love what I do and I had no idea that I would find myself here. And this is where we all have to be open minded and open to serendipity. I didn't even know this profession existed, you know, so it wasn't on my radar even in the periphery. And when I came, you know, I had my experience at JPMorgan Chase and then I went to work for one of my clients in software as you mentioned, as the chief of staff got exposure to so many things in the boardroom and otherwise business school, bcg. And I think what I had come to understand when I arrived at Aegon Zinder was I like Project based work. I like solving problems. I'm very fascinated by the how, you know, the people side of things, not just the what. And even while Agon Zinder was a leap of faith, never had I done any recruiting or anything really of this nature. I was compelled by the opportunity to help organizations find leaders. I was compelled by the opportunity to listen to people's stories and really understand them. I was compelled by this being actually the harder problem, which is who's going to do it and how are they going to do it versus a lot of what I had studied and practiced early in my career, which is the what are we going to acquire this company? Are we going to go down this strategic path? And I find the what to be difficult, but not as complicated as the how and who. And so that's kind of where the challenge allured me. And again, I had no idea what I was getting myself into and feel only blessed that this is kind of what I found. What I'm working on. I am working on helping a variety of companies, smaller, larger corporate founder led make courageous and strategic decisions on leadership. Who should be in the boardroom? How do you future proof your board for tomorrow? How do you plan succession multiple years in advance? How do you think about your internal bench as well as the external market? And what's interesting with all this is there's a lot of interdependencies, there's a lot of ambiguity and a lot of plan can't have certainty because humans are fundamentally uncertain. And so I like that work. But mostly I find that the relational. I've made so many friends, I found so much learning, I found so much impact through, through all the connections that I've had. And that's what really fuels me. It's not the solutions, it's the people.
- [09:08]
Elisa Sue Lynch
It is the people that's so amazing. I love that. So it sounds like you work with many CEOs, senior executives and board directors. As you think about those conversations and the work that you're doing. How do you think leadership has evolved over time? And how do you see leadership evolving over the next few years, particularly in the context of digital transformation, which is an area you still work closely on.
- [09:32]
Lindsay Trout
Well, it's interesting time, you know, it's March 2025 and leadership is, you know, being observed in many different capacities. But in a business and corporate sense, courage is such a currency. Courage is, you know, it's rooted in the word liqueur for heart. And it does require kind of heartfelt bravery. And we're facing a lot of tough decisions. We're facing a lot of uncertainties, and the world feels fragile. And kudos to those leaders who will have the courage to make decisions that they feel are right for the customers, for the community, for the employees, and, of course, the shareholders. I think the other thing that I've come to understand is this curiosity. And I've really developed in my understanding at Agon Zender, around kind of what does curiosity look like? And in my immature understanding of it, it was really around curious about things like, do you have that learning aptitude? And that was an error. What I've come to understand is that you have to be curious about yourself. And in order to be curious about yourself foundationally, you have to also be humble. So those are almost like two sides to the same coin. And I see this in leaders who really say, I can change, I can evolve, I can learn. How could this be? And it shows up in a lot of, you know, really honorable behaviors. But I think that those are really the two, you know, attributes that I look at in today's world that really drive leaders forward. It is no longer true that leaders need to be omniscient, which is probably a relief, particularly in this era. But I think that we held leaders of past to a standard of knowing the answer. I don't think that's the. I don't think that's the leader of today. I think the leader of today is to pursue insight and listen so that they can understand choices and find their courage, apply their courage and curiosity to make a decision.
- [11:29]
Elisa Sue Lynch
I really like that focus on courage and curiosity. And it's interesting, when I left Johnson and Johnson After 20 years, I didn't know what I wanted to do next. I had some interest areas, but Google eventually reached out to me as I was looking for roles. And I had never worked in big tech before. I wanted to, but. But I had never done that before. And I asked the recruiter, why do you think I'm a good fit for this role? And she said, you know, you don't need to be the technology expert at Google. You're gonna have to learn the technology. But from your career, you've demonstrated that you've been willing to take risks, you've been willing to learn, and that you do have that learning agility. And so we believe you can learn the technology, but you bring this healthcare expertise, which is what we're looking for. So it's true that people can switch and learn new things and make career.
- [12:16]
Lindsay Trout
Changes, and that's so empowering for you, for them to be to say to you, you've got it right. You've got the curiosity, you've got the learning agility to lean into this. It's okay that you don't have all the answers yet.
- [12:29]
Elisa Sue Lynch
So you are now a partner at Aegon Zender and it's not easy to make it to the partner level. So can you talk about any barriers you may have faced along your career journey that you had to overcome? And how did you figure out your superpowers and find your own voice as a leader?
- [12:46]
Lindsay Trout
Well, it's interesting. Within the first year of joining Aegon Zinder, I was 32 years old. I became pregnant. And this was a fear that I had carried with me. It was a joy and something I was looking forward to becoming a mom. But a fear was telling. After working so hard to tell your employer, I'm pregnant, I thought I would be judged, I thought I'd be miscalculated. I thought that my endurance would be questioned, all of these things. And I remember telling Pavan Vora, who unfortunately has since passed of cancer, and he burst up from the table, he was on the other side and he goes, congratulations. And literally leapt across and gave me this enormous hug. And it was such a relief because it made me feel just the opposite of how I thought I would feel. It was like novelty and excessive love and compassion, all these things. And I will never forget that moment. I'm grateful for him for many things. You know, we have these people in our lives, right, who pave our way. But that was a moment where again, I think we need to support our friends, male and female, when they might kind of confront that I didn't ask for permission as I did kind of integrate, you know, being a mom into my profession. I, you know, that notion around, you know, kind of forgiveness, not permission. And so as I had to craft my days and my schedules in a very intensive, kind of hands on, travel oriented job, I just designed it to fit me and I proved that I was getting the things done and I was productive and I did it my way. I did not ask for permission. And I hope that other people feel empowered to do that and can lean on the merits of their impact versus, you know, adapting to kind of norms that may be of past or that don't suit their model. The other thing that is related is I am a petite woman and I am younger and more youthful than many of my peers and certainly many of the people that I serve in my profession. And while I get older every year, so that problem fundamentally Solves itself. I do still retain a lot of youthfulness in my manner and in my energy. And so I've had to manage how people perceive that, how people might judge it, and ensure that they get the full and comprehensive Lindsay, which can couple that playful energy, that high energy, with a maturity around kind of perspective and judgment. And I want to make sure that they see that full spectrum and a little bit of the polarity in that, which people do find in me. And relatedly to your question, when I think about my superpower, if there's one thing people see in me is energy, and I don't need to bottle that up. And, you know, it surprises people. I mean, even my family gets, you know, surprised by it every morning. But it is so true. And I've got so much extra to give. And people do rely on me in many cases to share that optimism, to share that positive energy, to share that extra enthusiasm, to get through the tough times, whether that's in my personal life or professionally. And so, again, that serves, like, my duty, my sense of purpose, my sense of identity, and it serves others around me, because it's just me.
- [15:58]
Elisa Sue Lynch
That's excellent that you've recognized your superpower, and it's so true to who you really are. But I have to ask, how tall are you? Because I'm petite as well.
- [16:08]
Lindsay Trout
I'm hovering. I would round up to five one.
- [16:12]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Ah.
- [16:13]
Lindsay Trout
What are you rounding up to these days?
- [16:15]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Oh, I'm rounding up to five, zero. And my husband always reminds me, no, you're 4 11. I'm like, no, that's five. We round up in business, you know, Totally.
- [16:24]
Lindsay Trout
And shoes always help. I mean, let's just face it, right?
- [16:28]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Shoes always. Although post pandemic, I don't like to put on the heels as much.
- [16:31]
Lindsay Trout
I'm with you.
- [16:32]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, I'm with you. Similarly, in my career, I think early on, I was afraid I wouldn't be taken seriously because I am a small, petite Asian woman and relatively quiet, maybe unlike you. But I think my reaction was to try to be taken very seriously, and that worked to my detriment. Early in my career, I got some feedback that maybe I was too serious and had to bring more of myself to work. But it's interesting what barriers sometimes we might put on ourselves, that we think others may perceive us in a certain way, and then we act a different way.
- [17:05]
Lindsay Trout
Yeah. And I think it's very natural, Right. As we try to follow role models or adapt to norms or understand our limitations is to kind of overplay, you know, to that Right. And then, then it becomes inauthentic. Right. We over adjust. And so I think that there's something around coaching each other for understanding that maybe you might have limitations, maybe you may not be as strong in certain areas, but there's middle grounds that are probably going to be more sincere. Develop some, but don't, don't fake it.
- [17:40]
Elisa Sue Lynch
So Lindsay, can you share that story that you told me about before, around early in your career where you got some feedback that surprised you?
- [17:49]
Lindsay Trout
So this was in my early career. So I was at J.P. morgan, I was working at Lab Morgan, which at the time was, you know, incubation arm, all things kind of tech high flying in the dot com era. And you know, I was new in the workforce and I was a woman coming from the South. And I got two pieces of feedback that like hit me straight in the face. One was Lindsay, because I was responsible for managing the meetings. Lindsay, your Southern accent doesn't do you any favors. I thought, okay, I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina. This was how I spoke, how I engaged. This was part of who I was. I wasn't faking it. I wasn't bringing it to work in a certain way. It just was. And you know, I did continue a conversation thereafter. And again, he was just saying it was more of a liability in his perception than an asset. And so I have worked over time to, for lack of a better term, iron out some of what, you know, might come out as a southern accent. The second piece of feedback that I heard was that when I started meetings that I should not just get straight to business, that I should ask about the weather or I should ask about people's weekend because I was coming in too hard, charging, get stuff done, start the meeting, here's the agenda, let's get going. And that wasn't received well. I thought my job was to manage the meeting, not talk about the weather or the weekend. And I don't still know to this day if that was counsel provided to me because it was truly helpful to the group or whether that was judgment put on me as the woman that I was in that room and what expectations they had on me and how I might engage and bring that room together. So I reflect on those like it was yesterday and it was 25 years ago.
- [19:37]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, it's. It's amazing how feedback sometimes sticks with us over time. Maybe because you don't quite believe in it or maybe just hits you at the core in some way. So I guess we continue to work on our leadership style and how we show up and in some ways, you have to meet people where they are, for sure.
- [19:56]
Lindsay Trout
And by the way, I think both pieces of counsel had real merit in them. So as I reflect and absorb on what there was truly good intention, which is what you want with feedback. And once you understand that that is, you know, good intention is coupled with the content, then you can really dive a little deeper in the content. And this person cared for me and they wanted me to be taken seriously and they wanted me to be effective in that room with people who were, you know, decades more my senior, to be more relational, to build that trust, not just, you know, down to the dirt of the business. So I do appreciate the insights and I am grateful, you know, for the lessons.
- [20:33]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Yes. So I want to bring up a topic that is very topical today. And no, it's not tariffs, but I want to talk about dei, the dirty word dei. So in the past, you have worked with many organizations on accelerating diversity and leadership roles. What is the state of DEI now? What are you hearing from your clients?
- [20:57]
Lindsay Trout
It's been such an indulation, right. In doing this for 15 years. I feel like I'm in the third chapter. You know, the first chapter was me having a point of view around the benefit of it and feeling like I was kind of an underground evangelist trying to advocate for it, you know, with my clients, sometimes with effect and other times honestly with less effect. And then we had this social awareness and proven evidence around the value of it to drive decision making and impact and productivity. And obviously that made what diversity had been optional of past to being a mandatory part of all the remit that we were doing executive wise, board wise. And then unfortunately, now it's completely optional. It is an absolute reversal. I'm aghast, honestly, at how absent it is in the conversations and how few people, leaders are holding it as a relative priority.
- [21:58]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, it has been a complete reversal. I agree on that. You know, I serve on the board of the Honest Company. One of the founders is Latina Jessica Alba and is led by an Afro Latina CEO, female, Carla. Carla Vernon. Yes. A good friend of mine. And we have talked about DEI as a board, and we are still committed to serving our customers who are a diverse consumer base.
- [22:23]
Lindsay Trout
Exactly. And congratulations on that commitment. You know, there's a quote around kind of fashion or whatever, you know, kind of move with the wind, but in areas of principle, stand like a rock. I don't quote that perfectly, but I do think it comes to mind in moments and matters such as this.
- [22:38]
Elisa Sue Lynch
So, Lindsay, given what you've just talked about with DEI and what I'm thinking about with this podcast, which is to really help people with diverse and unconventional backgrounds choreograph their careers. How can people think about positioning themselves in this changing marketplace? And what does leadership look like moving forward for people who maybe don't fit that traditional mold?
- [23:01]
Lindsay Trout
So there's this real difference between having experiences, competencies, and then having potential. And I think it's important for people who may not yet have had that experience, similar to how Google turned to you and said, you know, you've got the capacity to do this in many ways. They saw your competencies and potential even though you didn't have necessarily relevant experience. And so you want to focus on the latter two if you haven't had kind of the perfect experience. So with competencies, you know, what are the threads that have made you successful? Is it that you're very results oriented? Right. And you are an achiever who gets things done, gets it across the line? That is very important to highlight at the kind of macro level. And then you can have your supporting stories around in whatever context that has showed up. It may be that one of your kind of competencies or master skills is driving influence and collaboration. So going back to digital transformation, you might have this special skill of developing trust, connecting dots, and being able to thread across different business units, talking about that at this level, and then in whatever context, even if not the perfect experience or of that industry bringing it to life. So that's really around the competencies. And then I'll tell you how we think about potential at Aegon Zender. And this was kind of deeply researched, but there was four key areas. Curiosity, insight, determination, and engagement. And so you might think about those four arenas and which ones you might index particularly on and contextualize yourself in that matter, might say, hey, you know, people have always advanced my career because I'm highly determined, my commitment level is so high, and they know that I will get things done and be reliable to them. People have also valued me in different roles because I'm very insightful. I tend to be the person who can connect the unobvious dots and bring a little bit more of a strategic lens up, leveling many conversations that I'm a part of. And that would be a way that you almost describe yourself or contextualize yourself, of course, with evidence that is taking you outside of the chronology of what you've done or the experiences that you've yet had. And hopefully that forges a way for you to be seen more holistically. For what you can do.
- [25:14]
Elisa Sue Lynch
So you are a mother of two girls. How do you balance work with your personal life and do you make time for self care?
- [25:22]
Lindsay Trout
Well, first, I mean, as someone who is also petite, I don't know if I buy into the word balance because it reminds me of a seesaw. And I don't know if you when you were a kid, Elisa, but the seesaw didn't favor the small girl.
- [25:34]
Elisa Sue Lynch
No, no, I was going to say I hate it. I hated the seesaw. I always felt like I bounced up when the other person bounced down.
- [25:40]
Lindsay Trout
It's not a pleasurable experience. So with, you know, youthful trauma on that, what I don't like about the balance notion is it's like give, take, give, take. And that's exhausting. And you kind of never know where you stand. I'm trying really hard to really think more about, like, how do I work with a, you know, teaming with my family. And fortunately, now I can take this lens because my girls are 11 and 13, Charlotte and Ella. And I'll bring this story to life if I may. And it's a secret the way teaming looks like in my pursuit of kind of a more balanced, you know, professional and personal life as a very busy working mom is engaging them on how my day went and solutioning on that as I would with them. So what no one else knows. Listening to this podcast right now is it is your. And my second go at this. Two weeks ago we went on this and we had all the technical problems, which is why I've got these crazy large things on my ears and I was not in the right headspace. I didn't have the right energy because my daughter had been in the hospital the week prior. So it was a little rough around the edges that afternoon when Ella came home, I said, mommy had a doozy today. A doozy? Really? Just meaning something didn't go well. And she goes, what? And I said, well, I had this great opportunity to do this podcast with a wonderful woman and I didn't show up well. And it was at her counsel for me to go to you and say, you know what, we should totally redo that. So let me offer you this. I left her this note. Ella, thank you for encouraging me to ask the podcast host to redo my recording. I indeed self advocated and will have a second shot at this next week. I appreciate you encouraging me and remind you that we're all continuously practicing resiliency. Xoxo Mom. So I can't say balance, but I'm trying to make it all work and integrate it as best I can. Thank you.
- [27:42]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Oh, I love that. And thank you to Ella for encouraging you because I remember getting your email afterwards and we did have technical issues, so we felt a little bit rushed and it was the right thing to do. And I just really appreciated you reaching out to me and offering that up. And actually I talked to Aaron, our editor, and was like, hey, you know, should we rerecord? And he's like, totally. We can re record. So it takes a team on this side too. Yes.
- [28:08]
Lindsay Trout
So women, Women, supporting women. And you know what? You can get great advice from a little 13 year old.
- [28:13]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Yes. Yes. I definitely am learning from my boys. I have two boys who are in their 20s now and I learn a lot from them.
- [28:20]
Lindsay Trout
Yeah.
- [28:20]
Elisa Sue Lynch
So for our final question, what advice would you give to your younger self or to your daughters about navigating your career while staying true to yourself?
- [28:31]
Lindsay Trout
There's such a long list. There's a few. Okay, so there's a quote that someone passed along that really resonated and it was like, don't get good at things you don't enjoy. That is just so spot on. Right. And what that requires is for us all to really, like, pay attention to ourselves and listen to ourselves. Right. What brings us joy and what doesn't. So when we're driving home from work or reflecting on our week, was it a great day? Okay. What made it great? What. What was. The moments that I loved and would love to replicate it. So learn about yourself, about what brings you joy and doesn't, and then try to build your life and your context and your environment around those things. That is so important. Another thing that I would offer my younger self and for everyone. Enough is enough. I see so many people I work with, many ambitious leaders, and there's always more, there's always beyond. And sometimes I just really wish that we all could be present and have the absolute greatest gratitude around that which we have, which is this moment. This is today. This is our lives versus looking at the next frontier. What could be? There's a lot to be said for today. And we can keep our dreams. Let's keep planning. Those are all important, but it's not everything.
- [30:05]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Thank you for sharing that advice that personally resonates a lot with me and Lindsay. It's always a joy to speak with you and you've given us some incredible insights on life and leadership. Thank you so much for sharing your leadership dance on the podcast.
- [30:20]
Lindsay Trout
Thank you so much, Elisa. This is wonderful to see you, like.
- [30:23]
Elisa Sue Lynch
Follow and share the Leadership Dance, where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business world. Until next time, keep dancing.