← The Leadership Dance
The Leadership Dance
Ep. 2: Breaking boardroom barriers, with Jocelyn Mangan
00:39:25
In Episode 2 of The Leadership Dance, Alissa is joined by Jocelyn Mangan, CEO and Founder of illumyn Impact and illumyn. Jocelyn is a visionary leader dedicated to solving board diversity who started two social impact ventures focused on accelerating...
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- [00:02]
A
Hi there and welcome to the Leadership Dance. I'm Alisa Sulench and today's guest is a visionary leader who is changing the game in the corporate boardroom, Jocelyn Mangan. Jocelyn's mission is to solve board diversity in the next 10 years. Her work is at the forefront of building better companies and therefore a better future, impacting the most influential lever for change, the boardroom. Jocelyn is the CEO and founder of two social impact Illumine Impact, which is accelerating diversity on corporate boards, and Illumine, which is bridging the gap between boardroom opportunities and historically underrepresented executive talent ready for board service. Jocelyn currently serves on the boards of Papa John's, Cha now and Wag, and she's an advisor to Homebase and a part time moderator for the Netflix Leadership Program. She has over two decades of technology experience building iconic global mobile apps and software products at companies including Citysearch, Ticketmaster, OpenTable, and Snagajob. Jocelyn is a Clinton Global Initiative commitment maker, a TEDx speaker, and a Henry Crown Fellow at the Aspen Institute. Welcome to the podcast, Jocelyn.
- [01:20]
B
Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
- [01:23]
A
You have had such an impressive career as we just heard, but I want to know, what were you like as a child, what was your upbringing like and what dreams did you have for yourself when you were growing up?
- [01:36]
B
Yeah, so I was born in New Orleans and raised in Houston, Texas, with three years in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, one of three girls and had, you know, a public high school experience and found my way to Vanderbilt University, which is for me was at the time very much a stretch school, not only academically but also leaving the state of Texas. You know, there's so many great schools there. It was pretty unusual for people in my high school to leave. And so I think I really started to break molds then and was always a very curious child, always kind of wanted to see the world. I think I've always had a little bit of wanderlust. I think I still do. And I didn't really. I wasn't one of those children who knew, you know, what I wanted to be when I grew up. I really would follow a path with my curiosity. Vanderbilt being a great example of that. And that's kind of what led me to my career in technology, was really just taking advantage of some opportunities as they came my way. That seemed really interesting and maybe not the normal path.
- [02:42]
A
Yeah, so you mentioned you found your way into technology, but I know you started as an English major, which I was as well. How did majoring in English translate into technology? How did you make your way into the technology industry?
- [02:57]
B
So I was an English major because I love to read, I love to write, I love to analyze texts and discuss things. So that's really. I didn't have any other reason than that. And I think like you, you're an English major and it's like now. So I contemplated graduate school, I contemplated law school. As it turns out, I. The first job I got was not the job I went for. The first job I went for, I didn't get. So I learned disappointment in job applications pretty early on. And my first job, I'll never forget, I applied to be an admissions counselor to Vanderbilt. Got to the final round, and they chose the other person. And so I. I really took, you know, the next job that came my way, which was a startup and I was, you know, writing health information. And it was a good group of people, but I wasn't super interest and the kind of topic of the business. And my career counselor called me one day and she said, you know, Jesse, you gotta check out this company. They come to town. They're called City Search. They're a city guide on the Internet. Now, I know I'm dating myself, but this is back in 1995, so these were really interesting times, right? There weren't a lot of quote unquote, Internet companies coming to town. So of course, you know, curiosity, it piqued my interest and I went and interviewed for a job as a writer actually for the Internet city guide called City Search. For those of you who might remember it, it was kind of before Yelp, before a lot of the things we use today. And I got the job. And that's what launched my. My career in technology. I started as literally a restaurant writer for a city guide in Nashville, Tennessee. But for those who followed that company and for those of who didn't, citysearch went on to become Ticketmaster. Over time, I ended up spending nine years combined in that company. They moved me from Nashville to la, to London and back to la. And so it really was kind of a wild ride. It was a time when what we were doing no one had really done before. So there wasn't a. You need X years of experience, right? So it was a good time to be in technology. I think there's probably always times like that. Cause technology is always new in some facet of it. And I just happened to be there at a time where I got to do a lot of jobs that, you know, quite frankly, not only was I not Totally qualified to do them, but there wasn't a big bank of people who had done any of them before. So it really felt like we were doing things for the first time.
- [05:26]
A
And were you with the company? I imagine over nine years, as it scaled from being, you said, a startup company to really becoming a global powerhouse.
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B
Yeah, it was always growth, it was always something new. So, you know, you hear about being in a company for nine years. I was never in the same job for more than two of those years. I was rarely even in the same city for more than three or four because it was just constantly evolving. It was also a great lesson, which still tends to be true today in a lot of tech companies. As soon as you think you figured something out, it changes, right? So I remember I moved from Nashville to LA for what they called at the time the rollout team. So these were the people that rolled into new cities, hired the new executives, and then rolled on to launch the new city. And as soon as I got the job and I moved to la, they're like, we're going to figure out how to launch 32 cities right here from LA.
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A
Oh, wow.
- [06:19]
B
So. So, you know, it really was a great lesson and, you know, adapting, understanding why businesses are changing. We ended up going through an ipo. We became, you know, separate from Ticketmaster and then combined with Ticketmaster and Interactive Corp. So just really constant change within those nine years, which really carried through to Open Table, where I was for a decade. But again, no two years in the same role. Always growth. I was there pre iPhone, then the iPhone, then the IPO and sold it to. To Priceline, slash bookings. So it, it was a, a wild ride through technology and learning about how businesses grow, evolve, buy companies, sell companies, go public, struggle being public. You know, just all sorts of different lessons during that time.
- [07:10]
A
That is so incredible that you got such rich and diverse experience through that kind of, you know, just being willing to take the first job that you got and what it led to. So that's really incredible. As a woman in the tech world, I'm sure it wasn't always easy. Um, you know, in the 1990s, it's probably a lot of bros. Did you face any barriers along the way that you had to overcome?
- [07:35]
B
So I would say, you know, going back to taking these jobs, one thing I want to mention is they were never the obvious answer. Like, I remember my parents saying, you know, how could you go to this little city guide? How does it make money? But then once it became Ticketmaster, them saying, you know, how could you leave Ticketmaster to go to this Open Table? Nobody's ever going to make, you know, dinner reservations on the Internet. And so I always took chances on things that weren't comfortable because they weren't the given path. You know, the given path for an English major was to go to graduate school or to go work for a safe, large company. And so you're right. When I walked into these technology rooms, I never had a boss that was a woman. When I first had my opportunity to join the executive team at Open Table, I was the second woman on the executive team. And I have to say, the barriers were more understanding what was missing and having the courage to ask for it. So, you know, whether that was a maternity leave policy that wasn't present when I first, you know, got pregnant, whether it was challenging teams of, quite frankly, all men who were friends to maybe think differently about something. So I remember times at Open Table where I wanted to buy a company that was really what now they would call an Apple hire. But at the time, you know, that wasn't something that was done. So having the courage to be able to go into rooms of people who were all men and advocate for an idea was something that I had to get used to. And it was a little harder to walk into those rooms or sit in, quite frankly, those boardrooms because I was often a participant in the board meeting and be only one or only one of two in the room who was a woman. Now, I didn't face a lot of, you know, people who didn't want to see me succeed. I'd say it was the opposite. So one of the things I can really say for certain is even though I always had male bosses, they were advocates. And one of them's on my board today, and he was my boss for 10 years. And so I had a positive experience. But I can't say that it was easy because I was often doing things for the first time in a different way, with a different perspective, and having to really find the courage and the confidence to use my voice.
- [10:09]
A
That's amazing how courageous you were at a younger age and not having direct role models within these companies to advise you. Did you feel like you were paving the way for other women, or were you just asking for what you felt you deserved or should make sense?
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B
Yeah, it's interesting in hindsight, I now know I was paving the way. I didn't think of it that way at the time. It was what you said. I was just like, well, it's kind of crazy. We don't have A maternity leave policy. Doesn't everyone have one? But then someone had to go do the research. Um, and at that time, actually, not many companies did have one, but I had to put all that data in a spreadsheet. I had to make an argument now that company has a very robust maternity leave policy, you know, or even a mother's room. There was no mother's room. These are just things that, you know, I think maybe now people have. And thankfully they do. But at that time, it did take someone doing it. I wasn't doing it because I thought, hey, I'm forging a path. But I often will get an email or a note from someone that I have worked with or worked for and realized that some of those decisions really did change things for others, which I think is really important for us to not only do now, but always continue to be doing for others.
- [11:21]
A
Yeah, kudos to you. I remember when I graduated from business school and I was pregnant with my second son. So I had my first while I was in business school and I interviewed for Johnson and Johnson, and I got to the last interview with the vice president and I could tell he had switched, you know, when they switch in the interview from questioning you to starting to sell you. So I got a sense that I was getting the offer and I was, I think five months pregnant at the time. So I felt comfortable letting him know, oh, by the way, I'm pregnant. And the response was, oh, do you know we have a daycare center on site? Let me arrange to give you a tour. And it was in that moment I knew this was actually the company I wanted to join. And one of the women that I had interviewed in the process was the woman who championed opening the first JJ daycare center. So I'm always very grateful to her. Lisa Kent.
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B
Wow.
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A
Yeah.
- [12:14]
B
Amazing. Yeah, that's next level.
- [12:18]
A
You are now the CEO and founder of Illumin Impact, which I know you've just renamed, and it's a social impact venture focused on accelerating diversity on corporate boards. Can you tell us about Illumin Impact, how you came up with the idea to start the venture and how is.
- [12:35]
B
It going in 2016? This is after OpenTable. I became a Henry Crown Fellow, which you are as well. I didn't really know what the fellowship was about at the time, but the Fellowship, for those who aren't familiar with it, is a two year leadership program. Its tagline is from success to significance. And really what it's looking for is leaders who are at an inflection point who want to go out in the world and make change. Right. Very broadly. And I didn't know at the time that I had it in me to want to do that. I credit the program for really drawing that out of me. But one of the things when I was really, you know, kind of aton who runs the program was like, when you're thinking about what is the problem you want to work on, make sure it's something that you're passionate about. And I thought back on my career and I thought back on a lot of what we've already talked about and said, you know, I've loved my career and I'd love to see more women in the workplace. How do we go about that? And I looked at lots of different avenues. And, you know, there are lots of different avenues of what we can work on in the workplace, whether it's the pay gap or whether it's the, you know, when you step away, maybe for a few years and you come back in. But what ultimately landed me on the boardroom is I looked at it as a system. You know, the corporation is a system, and there's a lot we need to change within that system. But if you change things at the top, it felt like. And it feels like today still that there's a halo effect. So the top of the corporation is the boardroom. So I, you know, I'd been in boardrooms as a participant at the time, and I'm a product person by nature. And so I, I wanted to go understand. So I went and actually interviewed a hundred board members, and I asked them a bunch of questions. But one of the questions they asked him is like, how did you find your last board member? Because everybody wanted. These were all men. Most board members are men still today. And they all said, well, you know, and they gave me a personal network story. It was a private dinner or, you know, golf game or that was a small setting. And so that's when I realized, you know, this isn't a pipeline issue. There's no shortage of talented people, but there is a shortage of people who are in the network of opportunities. And so that is really what inspired me to start Illumine Impact how it's going today. And so I'll say that one of the answers to the question was the private dinner. We heard that so many times that we actually started our company with a private dinner. We just invited different people and we had an iconic host so that people would say yes and show up. It's gender equal, a mix of people who are qualified to sit on boards. But Maybe not yet on a board with the people who can actually put them on boards, which are investors, CEOs and board members. And we did this off the record discussion, right? It was kind of a nice, authentic vulnerable setting where we talked about business, we talked about the boardrooms, but everyone left that dinner with each other's contact information. It was a warm environment and it worked. So we've replicated that model. I think we're up to 179, maybe across the globe. So that still is a part of what we do, but we've expanded. And now what we also do is we realize that one of the challenges is board openings aren't publicized. You know, they're not like open recs, like you would apply for a job. So we had to find out how are we going to know who's looking for board members. And one of the big unlocks we figured out there was another realization that most of our companies are private. You know, we, we read a lot about public companies, we know a lot about public companies. You know, Google, Meta, Amazon, those are all companies we know and read about. But there's a long, long, long tail of private companies. In fact, the magnificent seven all used to be venture backed startups. So when we realized that, we realized, well, who has access to all these, you know, kind of private companies which are really building our future, whether it's healthcare, AI, I mean, name any sort of innovation. It's, it's being built right now in a private company that you haven't heard of. And those are typically started with founders and investors. So we went to the investment firm Landscape, private equity, venture capital, and still today we're foraging partnerships within that ecosystem. Today we're working with over 100 partners and what we're doing for them is we're introducing all this amazing talent that finds their way into our network mostly by being nominated by other people. We're nonprofits, we don't charge. And we're making introductions. So we've made thousands and thousands of introductions. We have almost 200 women sitting on boards direct through our introduction and many, many more that we've helped get into the ecosystem, whether through our information sharing, our demystification of what, you know, kind of a secret space to some because it's not wildly accessible. Accessible, yeah.
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A
Congratulations on the success of the venture. Can you talk about how many placements or how many connections you've been able to make?
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B
Yes, so we make thousands of connections and, or impact reports about to come out. And so connections are really, when you introduce someone to someone maybe they didn't know otherwise in that board ecosystem. And that's in the tens of thousands. When we talk about how many women and specifically we've introduced into the private equity and venture capital landscape, that's over 10,000. Right.
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A
Just.
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B
And these aren't always for a direct opening, but they're just within that ecosystem that's very hard to get access to. Now, when one of those firms comes us and says, hey, we have a board opening and we make introductions, we also count how many of those actually got a seat direct through our introductions. And that's the number that's almost 200 since we started six years ago. So making progress. It is working. It is a long tail. And you know this because you're a board member. It's not an urgent role. It's not always one where, like, the job is open and they put someone in the seat in three months. That does happen sometimes, but we've had placements where it's been 24 months from the time we introduced someone to the time they got the seat. So we're making thousands and thousands of introductions in the spirit of those people finding their way into the board seat.
- [18:46]
A
Yes. The process of getting a board seat can be a very long process, and it does take those connections. I mean, all of the board roles I've had, whether for profit or nonprofit, have come through some kind of network connection or introduction. Even if a search firm is involved in the process.
- [19:04]
B
Yeah, that is how the bulk of board seats are filled. And it's not to say that the recruiters don't get access to some of that ecosystem or that some people are using, you know, organizations. But the bulk of the board seats are being filled through personal relationships. You know, trust is a big piece of the board. And so really, if you think about our mission, it's to get more and different people building those relationships. They're already qualified to sit in the seats, and so the qualifications are there, but the access is missing and the relationship, and therefore the trust is missing. So we're helping to bridge that gap through our work.
- [19:46]
A
Amazing. Love it. You also recently launched a sister venture, Illumine, where you partner with corporations to increase visibility for underrepresented executives to board opportunities. And I think this is such a great idea, because when I worked at jj, it always frustrated me that the company didn't allow senior executives to serve on corporate boards. The only exception was people in the C suite. And that really leaves a lot of talented and diverse executives out of the board pool. But you are already working with big companies like Netflix, Google, Microsoft, bank of America. What impact are you looking to make with Illumine? And why do you believe that corporations should support their executives in serving on boards?
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B
Yeah, so this was really a realization along the journey. Right. So what we were learning were a few things. First and foremost, a lot of those private companies coming to us looking for board members. We're saying we really would love to see a board member who's seen scale. Right. Well, guess what? Every large corporate executive has seen scale. Right. Just starting there. And they'd even say things to us like, you know, we'd love to find someone at Google, but we don't know how to find them. Right. Google is very big, and sometimes the titles don't actually map to the responsibility in a. In a way that's obvious to the outside world. Now, clearly, if you're inside of one of those companies, you know what Level 8 means or VP means. But it doesn't translate evenly across companies. Some companies put more emphasis on titles than others. As you mentioned, many people have a C, some don't, but they're actually managing a P and L or a product line larger than the private company who's looking to put them on their boards. And I think that goes to the executives, too. So, you know, maybe relate to this at J and J. It's actually hard when you're sitting inside that big company to actually know you're qualified to sit on a board. Because if you look at your own hoard, it's a really prestigious public company board, and it may seem like, you know, a little far out of reach for you. And certainly those are board members and great board members, but they're not all board members. Right. So they're not actually representative of a lot of the long tail of, you know, the independent directors on some of the private companies. So, one, we realized the companies wanted this talent. We realized this talent doesn't have access to the ecosystem. Right. They're not necessarily networking with private equity venture capital because they're just networking within their own large corporation. But I think most importantly, what we realized is that these executives want this for their own career. You know, we talk about how it's easy to work on your job, it's harder to work on your career. And so the executives want to be board members, and the chros, the talent partners at these companies, want to retain and develop their top leaders. And so if their leaders want board seats, the companies want to, you know, develop and retain them. And we know being on a Board makes you a better operator. It really ended up just being a win win. So we call it the Board Excellence Fellowship. We are working with many of the large corporations and they select their executives who they believe should be on boards. And then we do two things for them. We demystify the board ecosystem and process. Because it doesn't look like the executive process. It's not like when you apply for an executive role. It's quite different. So we demystify that. We don't do board readiness or making them board qualified. They're already qualified. But we actually help them understand the ecosystem more deeply in a cohort with other large company executives. And then we leverage our network and the nonprofit to actually give them visibility and exposure to this ecosystem. So, yes, that is a program that we're really excited about, fits in very well with our mission. And so while the companies operate as two different kind of models and names, they're really towards the same mission, which is putting new and different voices into the top rooms of our corporations so that we can see around corners, so that we can think bigger, so that we can be more innovative and more inclusive with the products and services that we build, that we can have better climate change, that we can have more options with all of the technology that we're building. So it really is a wide swath of influence that we have the potential to shape with some of these new board members.
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A
Such a smart idea. And I love that you're. You're doing that and making those connections and finding corporations who are interested in working with you on that and supporting their own diverse executives. You touched on this a little bit. But can you talk briefly about what is the difference between being an executive or an operator within a company and being a board member?
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B
Yes. The key difference is really, and this is funny, my, my friend Stacy Lasso. It's kind of like great. You get to come in and think and then you don't have to do the work. Actually, being a board member can be quite a bit of work, as you well know, but it's the altitude you sit at. Right. So. So the executives and the company employees are there to operate the company. So as a board member, you're not there to operate the company. You're really at an oversight level and you're guiding the strategy. You're looking out for the, the finances of the company, fiduciary responsibility, making sure the company stays financially viable. But as we all know, financials are driven by strategies and people and execution. So the board is really looking out from above, they're looking out on a horizon. I think that's one of the other differences is, you know, the good boards are not just thinking about next month and next quarter, but they're thinking about three years out. And so that's how I would kind of describe it. I often say people will say, well, what does it mean to be board qualified? And it's a pretty wide range because you have to have amassed enough operating experience to guide a CEO, to guide a company. But remember, you know, we're making introductions for startup seed stage companies all the way to the Fortune 100. So the difference in what that means to guide a CEO is very different if it's an early stage company, pre revenue, or if it's, you know, a public company that has thousands and thousands of employees and billions and billions in revenue. So that's the encouraging message, is that there isn't just one definition of what it takes to be a board member.
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A
You yourself are a director on a number of corporate boards, including Papa John's, Wag and Chow. Now, how did you get your first board role and was it one of these companies?
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B
So, yes, so Chennai was my first board seat and that actually came through Coco at Athena alliance, who's a great organization working in the board space. And you know, that was the, the kind of introduction to the opportunity. But ultimately, you know, I had just come out of open table and I had a lot of relationships in that space that were quite familiar to the CEO who was really driving the selection for that. And then the other two also came from network connections. So I would say all three came from personal network connections. And similar to your story, and I do think that is most board seats. Yeah.
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A
And I want to just say for the listeners, these network connections, it may feel very daunting and you do have to work at it, but you do get used to it. And these relationships may develop over a long period of time. We talked earlier about how long the board process is and just it's really important to get yourself in the consideration set, but also to make sure people understand what you bring, what's the value, what are the capabilities that you could bring bring to a board? And that leads me to my next question, Jocelyn, which is, you know, we're often encouraged to think about our superpowers and what is that value that we bring to a board? Can you share what your superpower is or superpowers, and what advice can you give to people to help them identify their superpowers, whether that's in their role as an Operator. Or particularly as board directors.
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B
Yeah. So I think one of the things I learned in this process for myself and hopefully helpful to others, is that how you describe yourself as an executive is quite different. Different than how you can describe yourself as a potential board member. Because the difference is as an executive, the lens tends to be a bit more narrow. So I find people. And you, you probably do this yourself, right? Where you'd be like, I'm head of marketing at X Company, or I was head of product at Open Table. And that is a true definition, but it's, it's also very limiting. So one thing that I was encouraged to do when I thought about describing myself as a potential board member is to broaden that definition. And so what we've done as an organization is we've actually listened to the thousands of requests coming in from the companies who are looking for board members. What we found is those requests come in across six dimensions of expertise. None of these are in any priority order. And sometimes we're looking for 1, 2, 3 or more of these dimensions. And the realization is, look, boards already exist. So when they're looking for a new board member, they're looking for the gap. They're comparing who they already have on the board and what they're missing. And so that's why it's not always the same definition, right? Because it depends on what they're starting with. And we can follow up with these six dimensions. We have a newsletter on them, but they're in no particular order functional. So like product management, marketing, go to market, business type. So certain businesses like subscription or marketplace, customer segments is another one. Industries is another one. Esg, which is environmental, social and governance and then scaling and growth, which is one of the biggest ones that comes. And it doesn't surprise you, right? If you're a tiny company, you want to get bigger, right? If you built a new product, you may need help with the go to market of that product. So again, it's all about what's the strength of who the board already has, what's the company strategy, what they're missing. So the best thing I could do to encourage the audience is to think about yourself and your own experience across a broader lens. So, you know, going back to my time at Open Table, for example, we did a lot of global expansion. So I know a lot about what it means to open in a new country. We did some M and A. I've acquired a lot of companies. Some went well, some didn't. You know, all of these things have shaped my learning and my experience that hopefully I can offer. You know, clearly that's the restaurant industry, but it's also a marketplace business. So just learning how to do that and it can be hard. I. I think of it more as a translation of your current experience and if you struggle with it. One of the pieces of advice we've been given that I think is helpful is ask a peer. You know, you asked me what one of my superpowers was. It was funny. I'd started this company and it was my co founders said, you know, one of your superpowers is connecting people. And I wouldn't have said that out loud, of course. I wouldn't have noticed it. Right. But she was like, of course. Right. So I think that's the other thing is you may not even be aware of your superpowers as much as maybe someone that you're working alongside might be able to help you with.
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A
That's great advice. Wow. You have talked about the importance of bridging the network gap which Illumine Impact is addressing. I'd like to also get your thoughts on mentors and sponsors. Who has helped you on your journey and what's the best advice that you've gotten from one of your mentors or sponsors.
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B
So I have had and continue to have a lot of people who guide me and I think I've enjoyed that as a benefit because I've been very open to it my entire career. One who I'll call out is Mike Sinakis, who's on my board today. He was my boss at OpenTable. He's my board member now. My board chair is Joanna Reese. She is someone who's constantly giving me advice, helping me with strategy, but also providing support. I think some of the best people I've worked with, it's like they push me hard when times are good and they support me when times are hard. And that's also a great quality of a board member for those of you who are going to be board members. Because business is hard and being a CEO is hard and there's a lot of change always in the market. And so you're kind of constantly trying to grow your business, respond to your employees, keep it together. And I'd also say, you know, I'm thinking about lots of my different advisors, both companies. We have such a great board. Dara and CEO of Uber's on our board, Francisco and Naveen. And Danny Meyer is someone who I've always looked to, and the way he does business with that lens of hospitality is something I find constantly Inspiring. And this isn't something he's just said to me. It's in his book. But one of my favorite things that he says is business is all about how you make people feel. It's that easy and it's that hard. And I think there's a lot of truth to that because, you know, business is really a bunch of people doing things and doing them together and trying to do them well. And that's complicated. And so I think, you know, really grounding ourselves in that. Businesses are built by people, or I like to say people build products, not the other way around. So much of the work you do as a leader, as a board member, comes back to the people, right? And the people you're working alongside, the people that you're working to support.
- [33:24]
A
So I know that family is a big priority for you. And you talk about how you believe that work and family can thrive together, which is a challenge for so many people. What does that look like for you?
- [33:37]
B
Um. So I'm not gonna lie. It's a challenge for me, too. I have two children. They're 18 months apart. I got promoted to the executive team at Open Table the day I stepped out of maternity leave with my second. So I had both of my children with a career. And I've loved my career so much that it was never an option for me to put that down and have children. So I would say it. It's changed at every stage. When they were babies, when they were toddlers. Now they're teenagers. And I don't think I've ever achieved balance. So I don't want to speak on a turn, and I think that word is maybe aspirational, but I do believe that I've been intentional and intentional in my work. I work on something that I believe really matters, really deserves the time it takes me away. And I think the work we do will actually create better opportunities for my children. But when I'm with my children, which isn't every day, it isn't every school drop off and pick up, I try to make the moments with them very authentic. I try not to be doing work with the children. I try to. If I've been away from them on a trip, I. If I land early, I go pick them up from school and surprise them. So it's almost like wherever I am, I'm trying to be there and be intentional instead of trying to do all things to all people, which I found very, very tough. Um, the other thing I would say, as soon as I think I've figured out some Kind of schedule or trick. Either the children change or the job changes or, you know, something's happening with the boards. So I. I really think about it almost week by week, and. And in my mind, it's almost like I'm clocking, you know, where is my time? I think that is one of the things I'm doing. So I don't know if that's encouraging or discouraging, but that is how. How I do it.
- [35:28]
A
How old are your kids now?
- [35:30]
B
12 and 14.
- [35:31]
A
Yeah, those are great ages. Girls or boys?
- [35:35]
B
One of each.
- [35:36]
A
Okay. They get along well.
- [35:38]
B
They do. They actually do. I mean, they fight like normal brother and sister, but I think. I think they get along well because they're. They're only one grade apart, so they're kind of with each other a lot.
- [35:50]
A
So I'll share with you. My boys are now. Oh, gosh, I hope I get their ages right. 25 and 27. They're 19 months apart. And I worked the whole time. You know, I went back to work 10 weeks after having my second one and continued to work full time the whole way. And I think when they started college is when I realized that they realized how much they appreciated me because I think their friends were like, your mom is cool. Maybe this is all in my head, but that I seem to recall.
- [36:24]
B
I hear that, you know, I hear that from others. And I. I just. I keep thinking that that will hold true, that they'll look back and be like, I'm glad my mom worked, or, you know, did all these things, and maybe it afforded them some. Some opportunities or maybe they got to see things in a different way. So I. I really also try to incorporate them in what I'm doing so they don't think, you know, I'm just going away to, you know, to clock it in somewhere that I'm actually doing something I really love.
- [36:54]
A
Yeah, we try to be good role models for our kids. So my last question for you is, what advice would you give to your younger self about pursuing your dreams while staying true to yourself?
- [37:07]
B
Yes, I would say stay focused on the dream. You know, there's so many things that will get in the way of your dream. There's other people that will have your dream, and if you focus on those things, either the other people that you think have your dream, maybe they do, maybe they don't. So comparisons, the thief of joy, or if you focus on the barriers, both will set you back, and they're super easy to focus on. So it's. This is a constant reminder. It's not just my younger self. I probably need to tell my current self, right. Stay focused on your dream. Like I just was told by one of my advisors today, what you're doing is hard. And I smiled at him and I said, yes, it is. It's hard. And we're. And we're gonna keep doing it right. It. It is. You have to keep your eyes looking ahead and not look at the limiting factors. And that can be really tough because there will always be a lot of limiting factors. There'll be a lot of no's, a lot of jobs you don't get. But I think just staying focused on what feels like it's fun, feels like it's authentic. None of the jobs I took made sense at the time, but they did always feel like the thing I wanted to go do, including today.
- [38:16]
A
That's really great advice. And I honestly had not really thought about don't focus on the fact that other people have the same dream because you are constantly thinking, well, how's my idea differentiated? And how is it going to be one of a kind? But it's so true. A lot of us have the same dream, and hopefully many people have the same dream if we're trying to solve big problems in the world.
- [38:37]
B
That's right. That's right. We always say we have no competition. When the numbers look different, I'll talk about confidence competition. But not today.
- [38:45]
A
So, Jocelyn, it's been so fun to have you on the podcast and to learn about your impressive Leadership Dance. You are making the room at the table for so many deserving people in the boardroom, and I personally am continually in awe of your impact. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [39:02]
B
Oh, thanks for having me. And thanks for this kind word.
- [39:06]
A
Stay tuned like and subscribe for more episodes of the Leadership Dance, where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business worlds. Until next time, keep dancing.