Ep. 40: Bend, don't break the rhythm, with Matt West

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Leadership Dance – Ep. 40: “Bend, Don’t Break the Rhythm” with Matt West

Host: Alissa Hsu Lynch
Guest: Matt West (Executive Coach, EVP at Golan, Author of Bend Don’t Break)
Release Date: April 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Alissa Hsu Lynch welcomes Matt West—a seasoned executive coach, facilitator, and best-selling author—to explore the art (and science) of adaptability in leadership. Drawing on his journey from jazz musician to business leader, Matt shares how his creative background informs his coaching style and offers concrete lessons on navigating change, fostering flexibility, and thriving in an AI-accelerated workplace. The discussion dances between music, personal reinvention, leadership lessons, and the human skills needed in today's dynamic environments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Musician’s Mindset: Lessons From Jazz (00:41, 16:13)

• Structure & Improvisation:
  Matt credits jazz for teaching him that “structure and improvisation aren’t opposites, they’re partners.” Being able to improvise relies on mastering the rules first. He applies this principle to leadership: successful leaders ground themselves in knowledge but remain flexible for the unexpected.
• Trading Fours Metaphor:
  He explains “trading fours”—a jazz technique where musicians alternate solos—as a metaphor for adaptive leadership and dynamic team collaboration.
• Quote:

  “The best jazz musicians that I know aren’t just technically brilliant. They’re constantly listening, adapting to the people that are all around them… If you can’t read the room, if you can’t respond to what’s actually happening in the moment… you’re going to be stiff. And stiff leaders lose people.” – Matt West (00:41, 16:13, 18:50)

2. Early Life, Musical Journey & Identity Shifts (02:43–09:42)

• Grew up in a single-parent, conservative religious home, relying on the outdoors and music as escapes.
• Musical training was mostly by ear; struggled with classical methods but flourished with jazz.
• Toured internationally as a professional jazz musician in his 20s (Russia, Finland, Japan, Brazil).
• Grappled with professional identity and the challenge of letting go when music was no longer a viable career path.
• Reinvented himself, eventually transitioning into communications, graphic design, and ultimately executive coaching.
• Quote:

  “There’s a moment where you think, this is all that I am, or this is everything that I am… how much that became a crutch for me, that I struggled with that…” – Matt West (08:11)

3. Reinventing Career & Returning to Passions (11:42–15:44)

• After a period away, music remains an important thread in Matt’s life—now as a hobbyist and arranger.
• Key lesson: even as your identity evolves, don’t abandon the passions that ground you.

4. Building Adaptability vs. Simple Flexibility (20:07)

• Adaptability as a System:
  Matt distinguishes between “flexibility” (a reactive trait) and “adaptability” (a proactive practice and system).

  “A flexible leader bends when they have to. An adaptable person has actually built the habits, mindset, the identity that allows them to move through change without losing themselves in it.” – Matt West (20:07)

• Tree Analogy:
  Adaptability is the whole tree—deep roots (values, purpose), strong trunk, and flexible branches. Flexibility alone is just a branch; true adaptability requires roots and structure.

  “A flexible branch bends in the wind… but a tree with deep roots and a strong trunk and flexible branches… withstands a storm.” – Matt West (21:00)

5. Frozen Expertise—A Modern Leadership Trap (22:40)

• Definition:
  Frozen expertise: when the skills and knowledge that once brought you success become barriers to future growth or change.
• Implications:
  High achievers may resist new approaches or innovation due to over-reliance on past expertise—showing up as “We've always done it this way,” or “I've seen it before, it won't work.”
• Quote:

  “The irony of frozen expertise is that it hits hardest the people who have worked the most to get really, really good at something… expertise opens the door for you, but adaptability is what gets you into the room.” – Matt West (24:22)

6. Adaptability in the Age of AI (31:19)

• Critical Human Skills:
  AI can generate efficiency, but core leadership traits—empathy, critical thinking, creativity, taste—remain uniquely human and irreplaceable.
• Soft Skills Are ‘The Whole Game’:
  Matt advocates for retiring the term “soft skills”—these are the differentiators for leaders in an AI world.
• Can These Skills Be Built?
  While certain traits may be innate, everyone can cultivate adaptability and critical thinking through small experiments and self-awareness.
• Quote:

  “Critical thinking is one of the most uniquely human attributes that we have… those aren't soft skills. Those are the whole game now.” – Matt West (34:15, 34:45)

7. Challenges Facing Leaders Today (35:28)

• Patterns are remarkably consistent: leaders across industries struggle with identity, keeping skills relevant, and getting “unstuck” from what worked before.
• Curiosity vs. Judgment:
  Those thriving experiment and embrace messiness rather than cling to expertise or fear failure.
• AI is only threatening if your identity is frozen in being the expert; otherwise, it’s a tool for amplifying impact.
• Quote:

  “The ones who struggle aren’t the least talented. They’re often the most accomplished leaders out there. And isn’t that ironic? Which is exactly what Frozen Expertise predicts.” – Matt West (38:33)

8. Advice for Younger Self & Emerging Leaders (38:49)

• “You’re absolutely allowed to be different, to change who you are, and you have an infinite capacity to do that.”
• Encourages self-compassion, experimentation, and rewriting your own story—even when it diverges drastically from what was “expected.”
• Quote:

  “Rewriting my story—that’s the work, that’s life.” – Matt West (39:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leadership as Improvisation:
  “You can have all the strategy in the world, you can have it perfectly designed. But if you can’t read the room… you’re going to be stiff. And stiff leaders lose people.” (00:41, 16:13)
• On Being Multi-Passionate:
  “I always have a lot of things on the stovetop. I’m always cooking different things.” (13:33)
• On AI in the Workplace:
  “Great leaders today… shouldn’t try to outwork or out-compute AI. It’s not a competition. The most important thing leaders can do is double-down on the things AI genuinely cannot do: build trust, read a room, care for the person across the table.” (34:40)
• On Learning and Growth:
  “The messiness and the failure is what makes life interesting.” (37:15)

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Timestamps for Core Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------|:-------------:| | Jazz as foundation for leadership | 00:41, 16:13 | | Early life, family, and music discovery | 02:43 | | Professional musician to new career | 07:18–09:42 | | Identity change & value of music | 11:42 | | Transition to executive coaching | 13:32 | | Flexibility vs. Adaptability | 20:07 | | Tree roots analogy | 21:00 | | Frozen expertise explained | 22:55 | | Rapid fire Q&A segment | 26:05 | | What makes leaders human in AI era | 31:19 | | Skills for the future / soft skills | 34:45 | | Emerging themes in leadership today | 35:28 | | Advice to younger self | 38:49 | | Closing thoughts | 40:28 |

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Rapid Fire Q&A Highlights (26:05–31:19)

• Have you bent or broken more?
  “Break. I wrote the book not because I had all the answers but because I had the questions.”
• Favorite jazz musician?
  “Miles Davis… because it can be angry, it can be confusing, it can be lovely—it can be all those things. But he definitely broke the mold.”
• Sponsor or Mentor?
  “Sponsor. There’s a handful of very special people who… created avenues of success for me.”
• Favorite dance music?
  Dua Lipa, Jamiroquai, 90s R&B—dance breaks at home are a family ritual.

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Final Takeaways

This episode is a rich conversation about leadership, adaptability, and continuous reinvention—both personal and professional. Matt West advocates for self-awareness, curiosity, and an embrace of creativity and flexibility rooted in solid values. He urges leaders to balance expertise with adaptability and to see today’s rapidly changing, AI-driven world as a playground for human strengths: empathy, critical thinking, and genuine collaboration.

Listen if you want to:

• Learn how life and leadership are like jazz—requiring both structure and improvisation
• Understand the difference between flexibility and adaptability
• Avoid the trap of “frozen expertise”
• Hear practical advice on staying human (and thriving) in a tech-driven world

Memorable closing:

“Rewriting my story—that’s the work, that’s life.” – Matt West (39:40)

Transcript

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[Alisa Sulinch]

Wayfair Every style, Every home. You've learned a lot from being a musician that influences how you help people, how you operate in different environments. Talk to me about some of those skills now.

[Matt West]

I've played all kinds of music, but I will say there's an anchor to it, and that's jazz music. Very early on I had a passion for it, and it's because jazz really taught me that structure and improvisation aren't opposites, that their partners in order for you to be able to improvise, you need to know the rules. To break a rule, you need to know the rule. And the best jazz musicians that I know aren't just technically brilliant. They're listening and there's this foundation underneath what's happening. They're adapting to the people that are all around them. And that's what I think great leaders do. But if you can't read the room, if you can't respond to what's actually happening in the moment to the person right next to you, the instead of what you've planned for, you're going to be stiff. And stiff leaders lose people.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Hello and welcome to the Leadership Dance where we explore the art of leadership with trailblazers in business and the arts. If you enjoy this show, please subscribe, share and leave a five star rating. I'm your host, Alisa Sulinch and today I'm joined by Matt West. Matt is an executive coach, facilitator, trainer and speaker who has spent over two decades helping leaders and organizations navigate change. As Executive Vice President of Coaching and Facilitation at Golan, he's worked inside of some of the world's most recognized organizations including Walmart, Adobe, Johnson and Johnson, and McDonald's. He holds credentials from the association for Talent Development and the International Coaching Federation and brings a uniquely creative background to everything he does. Matt is the best selling author of Bend Don't A Practical Guide to Building Adaptability in a World that Won't Slow Down. Welcome to the podcast, Matt.

[Matt West]

Thanks Elisa. Glad to be here.

[Alisa Sulinch]

So, jumping in, growing up, what was your childhood like? How did you discover music?

[Matt West]

Yeah, that's a great question. To start, we'll have to go back in the wayback machine, I guess. I grew up in the 80s and the 90s in a single parent household. I was the product of divorce, and as so many people, that shaped a lot of who I was and who I've become. I grew up in the west, and the outdoors was a big part of my life growing up. And I found that as a way to escape from maybe the tension and emotions of my family situation. I turned to either the outdoors or music. If I wasn't outside, I was listening to music, I was fooling around with whatever instruments I could get my hands onto. And that really became a big part of who I was. Now, I also grew up in a very conservative religious culture, and that also shaped a big part of who I was and who I've become. Lots of rules, lots of restrictions, lots of expectations. It's like there was a predetermined story for who I was and who I needed to become. And honestly, a lot of my adulthood has been rewriting that story, coming to terms with that story that was handed to me, that was given to me, and figuring out who I actually am outside of that culture. But music has always been a thread in all of those things. I was the kid that would play things by ear. Very early on on the piano, I picked up the trombone, and over the years, I've picked up five or six other instruments. And so it's definitely been a thread in who I was and who I am.

[Alisa Sulinch]

And in terms of learning music, it sounds like you were able to pick things up by ear. Did you have any classical or early training?

[Matt West]

I tried. I would go with teachers and they would try to teach me very classical ways of playing. And for whatever reason, it just didn't work in my brain. Even today, I struggle with more traditional ways of music. I know it sounds so simple, but reading music is very challenging for me. I play most everything by ear. Now, over the years, I've been able to pick up certain kinds of tricks and ways that I get over things. But I remember early on, teachers and people giving me lessons would just be stumped as to how and why to teach me. And that's when I discovered jazz and realized, oh, there's a type of music that I could actually just play with a little bit that I could improvise with. And as soon as I figured that out, I thought, oh, this is a

[Alisa Sulinch]

direction That I want to go, oh, that's amazing. Now, you mentioned you grew up in a conservative household. Was your family supportive of your musical interest?

[Matt West]

Yeah, I grew up in an emotionally charged but very loving and supportive family. But even as I say that, I just kind of was left to my own devices in many ways. And so, yes, there was the support, but so much of it was just me defining those sorts of things. And there's an irony that's not lost on me, at least, of this tension between growing up and learning music and being in the outdoors, but also being part of a very, very strict cultural system. And so even within that system, I struggled to figure out, is this okay for me to do these things? Is this okay for me to play in a band? All of those things. But, yeah, I'd say that my family was supportive, but I really was the only one that ended up being a musician in my family, which I think stumps everybody, all of my siblings to this day.

[Alisa Sulinch]

And I believe you still live in the outdoors or in an area that has beautiful outdoors.

[Matt West]

If I could live in the outdoors, Eliza, I would probably live in the outdoors full time. I'm talking to you right now, just south of Denver, Colorado. I've lived in a lot of places around the world over the years, but have been able to come back here to beautiful Colorado. And it's a big part of who I am. It's something I talk about in the book. I try to get out as much as I can. It brings a lot of freedom to me. And so, yeah, it's a big part of who I am.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Yeah. So, continuing on your musical journey, tell us, how did your musical career develop? You actually became a professional jazz musician. So tell us about that career.

[Matt West]

So this is where things get a little complicated, because, yes, in my early 20s, I had an incredible run of opportunities where I was able to join some jazz bands and tour around the world. I was able to perform in Russia and Finland, in Japan for a period of time. These were big bands. These were Dixieland bands. These were small groups. It was an incredible time. I also had the chance to live in Brazil for a while. And for a period of time, that was really who I was. That was my identity. It was one of the most formative periods of my life. And I'm sure you can identify with this as a. As a dancer and as a person in the arts. There's a moment where you think, this is all that I am, or this is everything that I am, right?

[Alisa Sulinch]

Yes, yes.

[Matt West]

And for better or for worse, that can be really affirming and freeing to have this identity. And yet, at the same time, I look back on that and go, oh, boy, how much that became a crutch for me, that I struggled with that because I was good enough to be able to have these wonderful opportunities. But, you know, professional trombone players, there's not a lot of them that do this for a career. Right. There's so many others that are way better than me. So I think even as I was in the midst of these great opportunities of touring the world and different bands, I realized, you know, this is probably not my forever. This is probably not the most stable path for me. And I'm someone that genuinely, deeply loves people. It's a trite thing to say, but I'm a deeply empathetic, sensitive person. And I think playing in a. In bands and groups has always been very important to me. So understanding people, connecting with them became the thread. So when I decided, you know, maybe music isn't the thing for me, I started to drift out of music, waited tables. I did some graphic design, actually had an opportunity to compose music for technology companies for a little while, but it was a winding road, and for a while there, I think I stepped away from music as a. As that identifying part of who I was.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Yeah. So how long was that transition? Because I think I went through something similar where I danced professionally, and then the company I was with, the choreographer, decided to disband the company, and at that point was an inflection point where, okay, do I want to join another company? Or. I was 27. Do I want to start a family? Do I want to invest in continuing in the dance world when, you know, it gets harder and harder to be successful as you get older? And that was my identity. So I was like, who am I? Who am I if I'm not a dancer? And it took a little while. I went to business school to make the transition. But tell us, how did you switch to what was next?

[Matt West]

Yeah, Lisa, I can imagine how hard that was for you, that they disbanded it, that it almost felt a little out of your control. I can only imagine that moment of, oh, no, this is out of my control. What do I do? I feel like I've had similar experiences like that where maybe decisions have been made for me, but obviously the environment around me, what's happened has changed. And I thought, oh, maybe this isn't the right thing for me. You know, it took me a little while, but I will say that I got married very young. Again, a cultural touch point of the environment that I was raised in, and I think that grounded me a little bit, and it helped me to realize, okay, there's. There might be more to this. But what's interesting is, in retrospect, I look back on that, and even though it took a little bit of a transition, it was. It was pretty quick that I was like, I need to now earn money to take care of this growing family that I'm making. I need to dig in and be smart and be professional. If I could talk to that self of mine back then, I would say, don't. Don't let go of the music. Even if it's not your professional gig, don't let go. Because there was a period of time where I did. I had to let it go.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Is music still a part of your life?

[Matt West]

It very much is. The arc. The narrative of this, Elisa, is that after many years of almost forgetting that part of who I was and thinking, well, if I'm not doing it professionally, I probably shouldn't do it again, that kind of rigid thinking, I think that's really normal. Being raised in these kinds of rigid cultures, I finally was able to get back into it, and today I'm very involved in it. It's not my day job, but I perform in a band here in Denver, Colorado. Brings me a lot of joy. I arrange songs for musicians and bands, and I'm able to mess around with different instruments, which has always been a joy for me. It's like a running joke in the family. Give Matt an instrument and see how quickly he can play it. Now, I'm not fant. Don't think that I'm that great that I can do it well, but it is savant. I wouldn't say I'm definitely not a savant, Elisa, but there is something wired within me that allows me to grab something and play a tune and figure out a tune, and that's still a lot of fun for me. So I'm glad I found my way back, because it really is more than just a. It's more than a hobby. It's. It's a thread. It's taught me so much. So much. And now that I'm a little older, I can look back on all the lessons that I've learned from being a musician, whether that was professionally or just doing it as a part of my life. And, yeah, a lot of lessons to be learned.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Yeah. So I want to hear about some of these, but catch us up. So after your professional career as a jazz musician, you transitioned into the corporate world, and now you have a coaching practice. So talk us about how you got from that first job after being a musician to now being a coach.

[Matt West]

Well, it was a long and winding road, I'll tell you that. And another part that I think is important to know about me, Elisa, is that I always have a lot of things on the stovetop. I'm always cooking different kinds of things. So even as I was pursuing that career as a musician, I was practicing graphic design. And eventually I earned an undergraduate degree in communications and was able to use my design background and that communications degree to enter into public relations. And I did that for many years and I didn't particularly love it. Here I was working, doing what I thought was right for my family, and it just didn't. I just didn't connect with who I thought that I was. For me, the turning point was being able to identify what I already said. And that is there's something about connecting with people and creating environments where I can help them. Again, as I say it, it sounds so superfluous, but it's true. When you know yourself, when you're self aware enough to know your talents, it's your skills, your challenges, your weaknesses, you're able to go, okay, there's, there's a thread here, and it might not be a specific profession, it might just be a tendency or a personality trait. For me, it was about people. So I earned a degree, a master's degree in organizational behavior. And that was the domino that really set the rest of my career off with. Once I earned that degree, I realized, oh, this, this is what I love. This is what I'm really passionate about. That degree opened up a lot of doors for me to work as a learning and development administrator, as a trainer, as a facilitator, as an executive coach, as you mentioned, as a presentation skills trainer and coach. But the thread has always been, okay, how do people change and what gets in their way of being able to change for the better?

[Alisa Sulinch]

Well, it makes sense to me now why you are a wonderful executive coach, but I think your musical background really allows you to play different instruments, continuing in your life. So, Matt, tell me, you mentioned this already, but you've learned a lot from being a musician. That I'm sure influences how you help people, how you show up, you know, how you operate in different environments. Talk to me about some of those skills.

[Matt West]

Now, I've played all kinds of music over the years, but I will say there's an anchor to it. And that's, and that's jazz music. As I, as I Said very early on, I just had a real passion for it. And it's because I can say this now. At the time, I didn't realize this, but I can say this now that jazz really taught me that structure and improvisation aren't opposites, they're partners. In order for you to be able to improvise as musician, you need to know the rules. You need to know them deeply, because to break a rule, you need to know the rule. And the best jazz musicians that I know aren't just technically brilliant. They're constantly listening, and there's this foundation underneath what's happening. They're adapting to the people that are all around them. They're adapting to what's just been played. There's a concept in jazz music that's called Trading Fours, which I really love. And if you know about jazz, a lot of it is just taking solos and improvising. You're literally composing music on the spot, but you have this structure of chords, of rhythm, of the makeup of the band, but then you're improvising over that. And Trading Fours is this idea of improvising for four measures, and then someone else improvises for four measures, and then it goes back to you, and then it goes back to them. And you can do this many times over. Sometimes you'll design that into the song and you'll say, we're going to trade some fours in this song. But other times, it's not spoken, it just happens. You trade a glance. I've seen people put up the number four. And it's a way of saying, hey, let's. Let's play for a second here. I'm going to say something, and then you say something, and then I'm going to build off of what you just said, and then you're going to build off of me. And it can be this really amazing, incredibly emotional and inspiring moment. It can be funny, it can be serious, it can be passionate, it can be sad, it can be dreadful. It can be all of those things. But there's something about that that really resonates with me. It's that adapting in the moment. And that's what I think great leaders do, right? You can have all the strategy in the world, you can have it perfectly designed. But if you can't read the room, if you can't respond to what's actually happening in the moment to the person right next to you, instead of what you've planned for, you're going to be stiff. And stiff leaders lose people.

[Alisa Sulinch]

And so there's this There's.

[Matt West]

There's this nice balance of, yes, make plans, yes, have strategies, but be open to the willingness that something unexpected might happen and how you prepare for that moment.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Yeah, I love everything that you just said, and I totally relate to it. I grew up in a very structured dance form, which was ballet, where you know exactly what perfect looks like. And then I discovered modern dance, where it was very uncomfortable for me at first, but I had to learn how to improvise and let go, even physically, let your weight release. But it wasn't abandoning structure. It wasn't abandoning the foundation or technique that I already had. It was building on it and allowing me to play within that structure. So I love that idea that you actually need both and how it shows up in leadership as you start as a reference. So I want to transition and talk about your new book, Bend, Don't Break, where you introduce the adaptability system, which you already referenced. What is the key distinction between someone who's just flexible and someone who's actually built adaptability as a system?

[Matt West]

A lot of people use those terms interchangeably, and I don't think that's a wise choice. I think there's some subtlety, there's some nuance that's important between the two, and they're both important. I would say that flexibility is a trait. It's your ability to pivot, to react to a moment. But in the book, I argue that adaptability is more than just a trait or a skill. It's a practice. And that distinction, I think, really, really matters a lot, because a flexible person, flexible leader, bends when they have to. But an adaptable person has actually built the habits, the mindset, the identity that allows them to move through change without losing themselves in it. They're not just reacting, but they have this system to prepare for it. So we throw on this word, be adaptable. Be adaptable. And by the way, a lot of times the word adaptability is used in a very negative sense. You've probably heard it yourself, Elisa, it's adapt, or else you have to adapt. And so we associate this feeling of, oh, my gosh, if I don't do this, this is going to be bad for me. It's going to be bad for my team and for my company. But I'm trying to shift that narrative because, well, there's an analogy that I use, and it's the analogy of a tree. That shouldn't surprise you. For everything I've said about being in the outdoors, I'm a little obsessed with trees, and I think there's an interesting analogy when it comes to adaptability and trees, because a flexible branch bends in the wind and that's important. But a tree with deep roots and a strong trunk and those flexible branches, that's the thing that withstands a storm. There's more to it. The roots are the things that you ground yourself to, to go back to the improvisation and jazz. It's the foundations, it's the things that shouldn't change. And, and by the way, maybe we can talk about it later, but too often we root ourselves to the wrong things.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Right?

[Matt West]

We hold on to these aspects of us that frankly should be the branches. But the roots represent things like our values or our purpose or inherently unique strengths and personality traits. And then the branches are specific practices like flexibility. So adaptability is the whole tree. Flexibility is one of the branches. They're connected. But there's something deeper and greater about the skill of adaptability.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Yeah, that's a great analogy. Another concept that you bring up in the book is around frozen expertise. So can you talk to us about what is that and what's the sneakiest way that this shows up in high achieving teams?

[Matt West]

I will tell you, this concept has resonated almost more than any concept in the book. It's been surprising for me. You know, you put these things on paper, you don't know what's going to click. I've had so many people talk with me about this idea of frozen expertise, and in some ways it's almost from the sense of, oh, no, you've called something out of me, Matt, that I didn't realize that I had. And so I'm always like, there's no judgment here. We're just trying to give a name to something that is very real. And if you're curious about it, then the idea of frozen expertise can actually be very helpful. Frozen expertise says that the, the things that have made us successful become the very things that hold us back. And there's an interesting position there because high achievers, we gain skills, we get really good at things, we become subject matter experts. And by the way, for years, this is the playbook that we've been given. We were told, become experts, become really good at what you do. And by the way, this is not me arguing against that, but there's something interesting about that narrative that I think is shifting in the new world of work today. Right. Because high achievers and experts, people who have mastered their craft, they don't usually say things like, well, I'm resistant to change. No, they wouldn't say that no one's going to say that. They would say things like, I have really high standards. Or they say things like, this is not how we do things around here. Or they might say things like, you know what? I've been around the block, I've seen this before. It's not going to work. And all those phrases on the surface, I mean, you may have heard this, you may have said this. I think I've probably said these things, Elisa. So it's interesting. They all sound very reasonable. They sound grounded in expertise. It sounds experience. But underneath it, what's actually happening is that our past experience and successes have hit a ceiling. The irony of frozen expertise is that it hits hardest. The people who have worked the most to get really, really good at something. The more you've invested in a skill or an identity, the harder it is to let it evolve, because what you're doing is you're aiming for a goal without realizing that the playing field around you has completely changed while you were aiming for that goal. And so that's why when I talk about frozen expertise, it's not a treatise against expertise, but expertise doesn't have the weight that it used to in the new world of work. Expertise opens the door for you, but adaptability is what gets you into the room.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Okay, Matt, we're going to jump into some rapid fire questions. I didn't prepare you for this, but just answer with whatever comes top of mind. First one, bend or break. Which have you done more of?

[Matt West]

Oh, that's a great question. I'm gonna say break. I'm gonna say break. You know, I wrote the book bend on break. Not because I had all the answers, because I had the questions. And when I say break, that sounds negative, but I've had to change, to reinvent, to redefine so many times in my life that what I wanted to do was share some of those ideas with people. So I've definitely bent. But there have been some times I've had to rebuild for sure.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Favorite jazz musician, Miles Davis.

[Matt West]

I've got a record of his right here. I rotate through different records, and there's something about Miles Davis, a trumpet player, that is just fascinates me every time I hear him play. Every time. Because it's not. It's. It can be angry, it can be confusing, it can be lovely, it can be all those things. But he definitely broke the mold.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Speaking of breaking. Yeah. What's the last concert you attended?

[Matt West]

There's a musician called Jacob Collier who.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Oh, yes. Super talented.

[Matt West]

Oh, yeah, Wonderful. Okay, good. He he's one of those people that amongst a certain demographic, he's very well known and very well respected and other people have never heard of him before, but he's a Grammy winning artist. He's has a background in, I would say jazz improvisation, but he's not a jazz musician. He does everything and I saw him live. And if you look up Jacob Collier, who, whoever's listening to the podcast, go look him up because he does this thing where he'll do a concert and he'll have the audience become a choir. And whether you're a musician or not, he will cue everyone to sing different notes and he has this really incredible way of getting people to sing beautiful chords by just gesturing. It's really quite incredible. I took my daughter to that Jake McCauley experience and it was so fun, but it was really transcendent as well.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Yeah, Yeah. I think he's kind of almost like Jean Baptiste, you know, he's just in his own class. He's. You can't really define his style or like, he's like so and so. He's just himself.

[Matt West]

Yeah, very well put. He's eccentric, he's fascinating. You don't have to be a musician to appreciate what he does, but he is a bit of a musician's musician.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Mentor or sponsor. Which has mattered more for you?

[Matt West]

For me, in my career, I've had quite a few mentors over the years, but there have been a handful of people who have opened doors for me. And so when I hear the word sponsor, I think to myself, this is someone that more than just shared intelligence has created avenues of success for me. And I've not had a traditional career path, to say the least. I mean, I've mentioned a few of the things. I've been a little all over the place and I think I'll continue to be that way. It's just part of who I am as a person. So when I've shifted, when I've changed, there have been people in my life that have said, hey, come try this, or, you know, I. I can see in you some potential. So I'm going to lean towards sponsor only because there's a handful of very special people who I've made sure they know that have sponsored me and given me opportunities that I wouldn't otherwise have had.

[Alisa Sulinch]

And last. Rapid fire Favorite song to dance to or type of music.

[Matt West]

Well, my wife and I, we do what we call dance breaks and we come home from work and we're exhausted and we're, you know, tired and it's been hard and we've been working with people all day, and we'll make dinner and we will turn on dance music. Whether that's Dua Lipa or some old jamiroquai or some 90s R&B or even Justin Bieber, whatever it is, we turn on that music. So I have very eclectic music tastes, but for me right now, I would say just a couple of days ago, we turned on a Dua Lipa playlist. And let me tell you, we had a lot of fun. So I'm actually, by the way, my wife is a dancer. She's a trained.

[Alisa Sulinch]

That's right.

[Matt West]

Yeah. She was trained in ballet. And same thing with me. I think she had to let that go for a period of her life as she had kids and was raising a family. And she's now been able to go back as an adult and join a ballet studio here in the Denver area. And it brings her so much joy. So as she's reconnected with dance, I've reconnected with music, and we have a lot of fun.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Good for her. Yeah. I have not really ventured back into a ballet studio, but that's wonderful that she's able to get so much joy out of it.

[Matt West]

She found a studio that's just for adults. In her experience, she's found that so much of the training of ballet is focused on young children and teenagers and even young adults, that for someone who's 50 years old, who's going to. And there's a studio in Denver that's really special that has opened up and. And she's really thoroughly enjoyed that.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Okay, we want to talk about AI. So tell me, what specifically makes a leader human in an AI shaped workplace? And can that skill or ability or branch be developed, or is it innate?

[Matt West]

This is more of a controversial question than you may think that it is, Elisa. There are so many interesting conversations happening right now about AI. Is it removing our humanity? Is it taking away certain skills and attributes of us? And even though I will never call myself an AI expert, I don't think there are many people that can or should call themselves an AI expert. But AI is a big part of what I do. I'm involved in a number of teams and initiatives and projects that use AI and even that role that I play. I say be critical with all of these tools, Be so critical with AI because I think critical thinking is one of the most uniquely human attributes that we have. Critical thinking, to me, that segues into things like empathy, judgment, creativity, taste. And by the way, even as I'm saying all these, Elisa, these are messy things. Taste, my taste is very different than yours. We haven't really gone there, but we could go down a route and we would go, oh, no, I don't like that. Oh, I love that. Taste is messy. These are all inherently messy traits. And there's a byproduct of the AI movement that's happening right now, and that is, and I hope it continues, is that as we, we as humans are being able to rediscover our uniquely messy human traits. For example, we'll talk about taste. Taste is underrated because AI can generate incredible things, but it can't discern. It doesn't know what's good, it doesn't know what's relevant, doesn't know what's appropriate, it can take some great guesses. It doesn't know what's going to land with a particular person who's sitting across from you at a table. And so that requires a human who's lived something, who's failed, who's broken, who's bent, right? Who has enough self awareness to know the difference between a clever idea and a good one. So I would say that great leaders today, they shouldn't try to outwork or out compute AI. They won't win. It's not a competition. I think leaders who are embracing AI and partnering with AI and also doubling down on the things that AI genuinely cannot do, like building trust, reading a room, caring for the person sitting on the other side of the table, those aren't soft skills. Those are the whole game. Now, I hope we move away from using the phrase soft skills. I think that's been a way to categorize a certain set of skills and make it almost sound unimportant. But what's happening right now is we're realizing those things that we have called soft skills are the skills. They are the most important things that we as human beings can develop. And to answer your last question, it would be naive of me to say that people aren't built with inherent things, right? We, we all have very deep personality traits. So much of that comes from DNA. It can come from the way we were raised, it can come from trauma, right? Friendships, experiences, all of the cultures, countries, languages, all of those things. At the same time. I don't think that should be used as an excuse for an inability to improve with those skills and traits. I do think we can build them. And that's part of what I set out in the book, is to give everyone permission to make small, simple changes through a series of experiments and that over time, before you realize it, you can look back and go, oh, I'm suddenly much more insert skill here. Emotionally intelligent or a critical thinker, whatever it can be.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Matt, you work with a lot of leaders and large organizations. What are some of the themes that you're noticing about the challenges that they're facing today? We already talked about AI. Are there other things that you are hearing over and over?

[Matt West]

I have this wonderful opportunity where I'm able to work with leaders in all kinds of industries. Some of them you mentioned at the beginning, or, you know, it could be a Walmart or Lego. Sometimes it's healthcare, Johnson and Johnson or Lilly. And it's really interesting to me to work in those different industries because you note certain cultural shifts and aspects. But at the core of it, they're all just human beings. These are leaders who are at the tops of their fields, who are doing incredible work. But when you genuinely have a conversation with them, when you're curious, when you listen, you realize they're struggling with the same things that the rest of us are. How to use these tools, what skills should they be developing? How do they redefine their identity? What new things should they be doing that they haven't considered? I think the leaders that are thriving are the ones who absolutely lean into curiosity versus judgment. They're. They're not threatened by technology. They're not waiting for their organization to mandate or push AI on them. And as we know this is happening right now, organizations are saying, use it or else, Adapt or else. Right? And you don't want it that way. We want to proactively approach those kinds of changes. And I think the leaders that are just playing, that are just experimenting. This gets me back to the idea of frozen expertise. A lot of times, frozen expertise, a byproduct of that is a fear of failure. Because we say, I am the standing expert on this. And when you say, the moment you say that, you setting yourself up to say, so you better not fail. What a horrible place to be. I feel genuinely deeply empathetic for people who have put themselves in those corners, because to me, the messiness and the failure is what makes life interesting. And so it's the same with AI leaders who are willing to get messy, to experiment, to try something new, to treat it like a thought partner, to treat it like a research assistant, as an agent of efficiencies. And then they bring their own human judgment to it, their own critical thinking and taste to it. I see that that's where amazing things happen. The output is so much better. When I see people freeze their entire professional identity when it's wrapped up in everything that they know. Being the expert, then things like AI can be incredibly threatening and it can be existential, and that can be really, really hard. The pattern is remarkably consistent. The ones who struggle aren't the least talented. They're often the most accomplished leaders out there. And isn't that ironic? Isn't that ironic? Which is exactly what Frozen expertise predicts.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Well, what advice would you give to your younger self or to, you know, other younger musicians, maybe about navigating a career while staying true to yourself?

[Matt West]

Oh, so many things. So many things. I would love to take little Matt aside and say, hey, just have fun, be in the moment. Don't stress, don't be so anxious about everything. Don't carry the weight of other people's choices and decisions, even though they affect you. There's more. We could get so deep with this question, Elisa, and I wonder if you feel the same or maybe if this is just a me thing, but I would pull my young self aside and say, you're absolutely allowed to be different, to change who you are, and you have an infinite capacity to do that. You know, I grew up in a very defined story. Here's who you are, here's what you should be, here's what you should believe. And for a long time, I think I felt a sense of guilt from departing from that, that I was failing because I didn't fit that profile. But what I realized now is that rewriting my story, that's the work, that's life. And the most adaptive people that I've ever met and I've coached a lot of them are the ones who are changing paths, who are rewriting their story, who are trying new things. They're willing to pick up a pen and paper even when people aren't using pen and paper anymore. Right. And they're making changes even when it's uncomfortable. I think we need to give ourselves permission to do that a little sooner. Give ourselves a little bit of self compassion to change, to tweak, to fail, to bend while still relying on things that are important to us.

[Alisa Sulinch]

That's really powerful, Matt, and I think it's a message that is going to resonate with a lot of people. You have a lot to share. It's been so wonderful to learn more about you and I want to thank you for sharing your leadership dance on the podcast and congratulations on your new book. Ben, don't break.

[Matt West]

Elisa, thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure to chat with you. I appreciate you having me on today.

[Alisa Sulinch]

Absolutely. Like Follow and Share Share the Leadership Dance, where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders who are breaking barriers in the arts and business worlds. Until next time, keep dancing.

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