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- [00:02]
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- [00:31]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So you have said that every corporate board would be lucky to have an artist in the mix. I really love that. So what specifically does an artist see or bring that others don't?
- [00:41]
Clive Chang
I'm staring directly at one right now. A dancer board director. I think about the dancer who can see something in a room that nobody else can see. Some sort of like sense and intuition. My thesis is that 95 plus percent of the time we experience humans artistry in the world is actually not on a stage. It's actually not like on a gallery or a museum wall. It's through interactions like the one we're having right now. We tend to take for granted the value that artists can bring. What was that beautiful phrase that Darren Walker said? Artists are the historians of our collective human experience.
- [01:24]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Hello and welcome to the Leadership Dance Podcast where we explore the art of leadership with trailblazers in business and the arts. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe, share and give it a five star rating. And if you're listening to this episode right now, also check out our YouTube channel, Heladership Dance. I'm your host, Alisa sue lynch and today I'm joined by Clive Changing. Clive loves to dream at the intersection of art and business. A lifelong composer, pianist and music director, he proudly infuses artistry into his work as an executive leader across the creative industries. Having previously held leadership roles at Lincoln center and Disney Theatrical Group, Clive currently serves as President and CEO of Young Arts, the National foundation for the Advancement of Artists, whose mission is to identify exceptional young artists, amplify their potential, and invest in their lifelong creative freedom. Clive holds multiple undergraduate and Master's degrees from McGill University, New York University, and Harvard Business School. I'm so excited for our conversation today.
- [02:36]
Clive Chang
Clive, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
- [02:39]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay, I want to hear about your early years. You were born in Hong Kong and then you moved to Canada at age five and then you started taking piano lessons almost immediately. What was that early world like for you that transition from Asia to Canada. And what did music mean to you as a kid?
- [02:58]
Clive Chang
Such beautiful and fond memories. The immigrant experience, especially at a tender age like that, is so special. I distinctly remember that when my sister and I were twins, my twin sister and I started piano lessons. We didn't yet speak English, and neither did our piano teacher, who had just immigrated from Russia.
- [03:18]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Oh, no way.
- [03:19]
Clive Chang
And so we really bonded over the language of music and that beautiful shared vocabulary. And, of course, we all learned English over time. But that was already, I think, a beautiful first lesson in humanity. Right. Despite language barriers, here are humans coming together for a shared purpose. Music, to me when I was young, I think, was a way of me finding identity, of me finding purpose. You know, I think I was always a kid who wanted to channel his energy into something fully and wholeheartedly, and music gave me that. I think also music. I appreciated the analytical nature of music very early on, especially as a young kid playing Bach, who remains today my favorite composer. And just really appreciating how intricate and how really intellectual in a way that music is. But when it comes together, it kind of adds up to this larger than life kind of like ethereal kind of nature.
- [04:28]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, Bach is very structured.
- [04:30]
Clive Chang
Exactly, exactly. You know, you're a dancer, so I think you would know this too. Also was a way, I think that I learned discipline, that I learned patience. I think that early lessons in resilience probably came from piano as well, because you would attack these really difficult passages, and it would take you weeks, maybe months to perfect them. And I think that those kinds of skills we didn't even know as youngsters, we were developing at the time. But. But now, looking back in hindsight, I think we can all appreciate what those experiences now have given to us cumulatively over the years. And of course, music also, I think I found a lot of community in it. I found a lot of social identity building. A lot of my social life became around music. And so I think that also started to shape me socially. So in every way possible, I think, is the answer.
- [05:32]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah. So many things I want to follow up on. So, first of all, you may not know this, but my mom was a classical piano teacher.
- [05:39]
Clive Chang
Wow.
- [05:40]
Alisa Sue Lynch
A classical pianist. And then she taught classical music or piano lessons at our home. So I used to wake up every morning to her practicing, and then I'd get home from school and she'd have students. So there was always music in the home.
- [05:53]
Clive Chang
Oh, yeah.
- [05:54]
Alisa Sue Lynch
And my older sister, two years older, she and I both studied piano, of course, and I Also composed when I was young.
- [06:03]
Clive Chang
Wow.
- [06:04]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So I want to get into your composing later. But, yeah, a lot of parallels. But I agree with everything that you were saying about the things that you learned from music that apply today. But I wanted to follow up on your twin sister. Tell me more about your twin sister.
- [06:18]
Clive Chang
Yeah, she's wonderful. We're three minutes apart, and technically I'm older by virtue of C section, so she says that I robbed her out of her seniority.
- [06:28]
Alisa Sue Lynch
She was in the first position to come out.
- [06:31]
Clive Chang
Exactly. So she still holds a grudge against me to this day.
- [06:34]
Alisa Sue Lynch
That's funny.
- [06:35]
Clive Chang
She also was a pianist and then played saxophone and now is a neuroscientist. So she's. She actually now asks me to address her as Dr. Chang. She says, that's Dr. Chang to you. I said, okay, Dr. Chang. But of course, you know, I think we could spend an entire podcast episode talking about the intersection of music and neuroscience too.
- [06:57]
Alisa Sue Lynch
How long did she study music for?
- [06:59]
Clive Chang
She didn't study it in college, but she continued to play through. So really entirety of childhood upbringing, but didn't take a degree in it.
- [07:10]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay.
- [07:10]
Clive Chang
Yeah.
- [07:11]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay. Now I wanna probe a little bit on the fact that you were an immigrant and to Asian parents.
- [07:19]
Clive Chang
Oh, yeah.
- [07:20]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So there's often this tension between do I follow my passion, which is music, or in my case was dance, and. And does that meet family expectations? So did you experience that tension and how supportive or not were your parents of your path into music?
- [07:37]
Clive Chang
I mean, did I ever face that tension? My gosh. You know, it's so funny because I think about Asian parents and I think about how non negotiable it is for them to put their kids in music lessons. And then the moment you go to them and say, you know, I think I might want to pursue this as a career, they. They're literally like, over my dead body. I put you in music lessons so you could be a great doctor or engineer or lawyer or something that will make you money. You know what I mean?
- [08:08]
Alisa Sue Lynch
You have to excel in music.
- [08:09]
Clive Chang
Exactly, Exactly.
- [08:10]
Alisa Sue Lynch
But what for?
- [08:11]
Clive Chang
And I have no doubt that music also made me extremely good at math. Like, I have no doubt about that connection. But it is one of those, like, maybe could you have been a little more transparent about your intentions with enrolling me in music earlier on? But nevertheless, I was a stubborn child. And I also, you know, I was going through a lot of things in my life, including being in the closet. Right. Hadn't come out yet. And a lot of my young life was also oriented around how do I make myself unique when I. When I think back to it, if I. If I therapy myself? I think in a way, really pursuing high excellence in music was also a way for me to like, differentiate myself enough to carve a path out of wherever I was so that I could just be fully who I am. Right. So in a way, it was like an escape path as well. And I think that was quite motivating at the time as well. But I did. How this all played out was I applied to music conservatories, I applied to other, like, engineering programs, finance programs, et cetera. I got thankfully admitted into everything. And I ended up just all because we were managing our own stuff by then, by that age. So I had submitted my acceptance into both and I took my parents out for dim sum and I said, guess what? I'm gonna go and do both. And that's how that began. And I ended up then doing a music degree and a finance degree in parallel. And it took five years.
- [09:48]
Alisa Sue Lynch
At the same university.
- [09:49]
Clive Chang
At the same university.
- [09:50]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay.
- [09:50]
Clive Chang
Yeah. And I still remember, like, having to go to the counselor's office and say, here's my plan. And I've looked up the syllabi of both. And if I do it this way, and I do eight courses a semester and I do five courses every summer, I can do both of these and do all the credits in five years. And I remember she looked at me like I had like three heads. And she was like, what are you talking about? But, you know, then we did it.
- [10:13]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, you did it.
- [10:14]
Clive Chang
And here we are.
- [10:14]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yes. Amazing. Amazing. So you spent a decade seriously competing as a pianist. At what point did you realize you wanted to create music, compose music, not just perform it?
- [10:26]
Clive Chang
Yeah, early. So I credit this to my theory teacher who just saw something in me. And it reminds me that sometimes that's what it takes to set a young person on a path. It's like a teacher or an influential figure of some kind. And I was 8 years old, and so this would have been still pretty elementary in terms of theory, but she. She sent me home one casual Saturday afternoon with an assignment to. Why don't you try to compose something as if you were Bach? Because by then she knew I was obsessed with Bach and I didn't know any better. Right. Like, for all I knew, this was a perfectly normal and reasonable homework assignment to ask an 8 year old to do. So I was like, okay. And I went home and I did it. The title was Prelude in the Style of Bach. That was literally the title. And that's what started my journey. But I think back to that moment and I think about how it dawned on me that I think I was about to learn another language. It was like another horizon that I didn't even know.
- [11:33]
Alisa Sue Lynch
New way to express yourself.
- [11:34]
Clive Chang
Yes. Yes. And I have Mrs. Capron to thank. Right. Who said, I see something in this kid. Let's try. And that's what began my composition journey.
- [11:48]
Alisa Sue Lynch
And where did that take you?
- [11:50]
Clive Chang
So I clearly enjoyed it so much that I did an entire undergraduate degree in composition. And later on my earlier years, I was writing classical chamber music, primarily. McGill, where I went to conservatory in, is also pretty notorious for being the Canadian bastion of the avant garde. So it was, let's just say, very, very contemporary. And at the same time, as I was taking up this degree, I started involving myself in all sorts of theater. And I grew to love musical theater. In the interim, I was conducting the pit orchestra for an operetta. I was music directing the new Undergraduate Theater Society and fell in love with that first production was Little Shop of Horrors, which today still remains one of my very favorite shows. And so I then ended up starting to write for musical theater. And my MFA actually is in musical theater writing from the Tisch School at nyu.
- [12:50]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Very cool.
- [12:51]
Clive Chang
And that was before business school. And so musical theater was not a destination that if you had asked me when I was 8 years old, that would have ended up at. But various twists and turns led me there, and today it remains one of my passions.
- [13:07]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So you clearly advanced a lot more than I did in composition. I think my first composition was the Midnight Raccoon.
- [13:16]
Clive Chang
Oh, I hope we can hear it sometime.
- [13:20]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Oh, no, I don't think you're ever gonna hear that. Okay, so I love this quote that I found. You said you've described yourself as 100% artist and 100% business person. So 200%.
- [13:36]
Clive Chang
200% of a person.
- [13:37]
Alisa Sue Lynch
How does your artistry inform how you lead in business?
- [13:40]
Clive Chang
Oh, I love that question. Really. When I think about it, my earliest leadership lessons were all in artistic contexts. And so it's no surprise that to this day, I think I carry that spirit and I carry that identity in. Into my role as a nonprofit CEO, but also before that in various other roles at Lincoln center, at Disney. I remember what were my first leadership assignments. It was like music direct an acapella group or conduct a pit orchestra. And when you think about the skills involved with that, they're very much intuition based. You know, when you think about how do you get 20 voices to all produce One seamless, harmonious sound. Like, that's not something that organizational behavior class can teach you. Right? So you sort of had to intuit your way around how to lead a group of people toward something greater than the sum of its parts. And that is why I think even in all of my corporate roles, I have approached them with that same degree of intuition, that same degree of nuance. Much like in the rehearsal room, you read everyone's energies, you read everyone's breaths, you read everyone's very small facial expressions. Often a cue as a conductor, is an eyebrow, like an eyebrow gesture. You know, it's not even like a big, you know, hand gesture. So, like, you know, there was actually, in conducting class, there's a famous exercise where you don't use your hands at all to conduct and you just use your facial expressions and you, you know, and that is. That reminds me how nuanced that setting is. And to this day, I. I think we should be so lucky as to find an organizational culture in. In the workplace that is harmonious enough such that employees can sense each other's motivations, can sort of walk into a room and instantaneously negotiate sort of the energies that are present. And as we know, you know, those EQ skills are the hardest to find and the hardest to develop. And what I remind, you know, corporate leaders every day is that, hey, artists actually kind of learn that from a very young age. That might be something you look for when you scan resumes of, like, people you want to hire.
- [16:15]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Right?
- [16:15]
Clive Chang
You know?
- [16:15]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, yeah. Well, it sounds like you were also born to lead, because what you're talking about is also, like, you're creating, you're conducting, you were sort of at the forefront of the orchestra. So have you reflected on, like, what led you to leadership? Or you think you always kind of were drawn to that?
- [16:38]
Clive Chang
Yeah, you know, I don't know that I've deeply reflected on that question, but I think, like, there is probably a little dose of hubris there. Right. Like, I want to, you know, volunteer to be the one who, like, you know, provides the gesture that everyone follows. So, like, I'm sure there's something personality related there that I'll just dive into more deeply with my therapist. But I think one of the ways I both derive energy and one of the ways in which I contribute to the world is through human to human interaction. And so I think I've always sought opportunities to find other ways to engage with other people. Like, I wasn't going to be the musician that thrived in a solitary setting. Locked in a practice room 10 hours a day like that was just not how I was going to live my best life.
- [17:34]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Right.
- [17:36]
Clive Chang
So in a way, I think some of it is personality driven.
- [17:39]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah. Well, it sounds like you also get your energy from being around other people.
- [17:43]
Clive Chang
Yeah, very much so.
- [17:45]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So you mentioned already Disney Theatrical Group and Lincoln center, and those are two iconic institutions, very different in mission. What did each teach you about leading in the arts?
- [17:56]
Clive Chang
The funny thing is that while one is a nonprofit institution, a very complicated one, because Lincoln center also has 10 resident organizations that live on one campus, and the other is this massive, publicly traded, for profit company. When I think back to both chapters, I'm reminded that they are actually more alike than they are different. And I say that because they are both creative organizations at the core, and they both wrestle with the same tensions. They wrestle with that balance between artistry and financial sustainability or commercial success. You know, the kinds of debates and arguments that you would see in an artistic nonprofit are also the same ones that you see, you know, when you put the creative team of a new Disney on Broadway production in a room with the finance people. You know what I mean?
- [18:55]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah.
- [18:55]
Clive Chang
So I always give this hot take where I say, of the two, while Disney is many, many multiples larger of an enterprise than Lincoln center, the Lincoln center context was more challenging. Like, my argument is that you need better talent on that nonprofit side than you do on the for profit side. When you think about it, it's actually more straightforward on the commercial side because the criteria for success, the metrics for success are quite clear. Like, does it make money? Check. Is it good for the brand? Check. You know, is it more or less aligned with the broader company corporate strategy? Check. Right. Like you, you essentially, you have a checklist to help you make a decision, whereas on the other side, there are so many more layers. Like, aside from its artistic mission, what is Lincoln Center's civic mission to the city of New York? You know, when we're trying to, you know, earn revenue on performances, what is the duty to provide accessibility to the citizens of New York City? All of these layers come into the fold in a way that I think is much more in your face than in a setting like at Disney. By no means would I say, you know, that job was easy, but I would go as far as to say it was more straightforward.
- [20:20]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Do you try to bring some of that structure or frameworks to the work you do in the nonprofit world?
- [20:28]
Clive Chang
Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things that my current staff would say, hopefully by this point, in a more loving way, but still with a little bit of a chuckle and like a little bit of a side eye is my insistence on Young Arts having a set of KPIs. Not only a set of organizational KPIs that allow us to measure progress on our most important goal pillars, but a way for every employee to relate to those goals, no matter what the role is. Whether they are an accountant or whether they are a programs manager, or whether they are a fundraiser, your individual KPIs ought to ladder up to our organizational KPIs in a way that really shows how your job contributes to the collective outcomes that we're working toward. So whether you call that corporate or not, I don't know. But certainly I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think that nonprofits ought to be run less rigorously somehow than for profits. You know what I mean? There's that there's a little bit of an assumption of like a slightly lower degree of rigor, which I think does not do the sector a service.
- [21:48]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So tell us more about Young Arts. Why did you decide to take on the leadership role there and what's your vision for the organization?
- [21:57]
Clive Chang
Oh, thank you. Young Arts is such a special organization. I always say it has felt like coming home because each and every day I get to wake up and think about how I can help artists build sustainable careers. And I love our mission and vision statement. And every time I say it, I still get goosebumps. We envision a world that embraces artists as vital to our humanity. And anytime we say that phrase out loud, it gives us the sort of renewed clarity of purpose of why do we do what we do? So being able to now lead an organization that is completely artist centered in every way. It literally lives and breathes for the purposes of supporting artists. And when I think about my chapters at Lincoln center and at Disney, yes, they were in the creative industries, very much so. But those roles also did not afford me much of an opportunity to directly interact with artists. And that is a beautiful of what leading Young Arts allows me to do. And I spend a lot of my time traveling across the country and beyond, meeting with our alumni and asking them, how can we help you build your artistic career? Whether you're a dancer, whether you're a filmmaker, whether you're a photographer. Right. Whether you're a novelist, whether you're some combination of all of those things. Because we're also seeing that artists today are far more interdisciplinary than ever before, even at a very, very young. So since 1981, we have launched a nationwide open called any young person aged 15 to 18 who wants to be an artist to apply to our national competition. And each year we award cash prizes of up to $10,000, which is quite meaningful for someone of that age. And more importantly, a winner enters the young arts community and receives a lifetime of support from that point forward. And we make a lifelong commitment to each and every winner who wins a young arts award that we are gonna be there every step of the way to help them build the beautiful artistic career of their dreams. I remember I was 39 at the time and there was something symbolic about, you know what? I think I might be ready to run an organization. And there was something neat about doing it on the. On the verge of turning 40 and then more and more. So I think with each passing day, I'm also reminded that part of why we do what we do has a lot to do with who we get to work with. And our chair, Sarah Arison, is just one of the most remarkable humans to have ever graced this earth. You know, I'm convinced that you can't find a better board chair than Sarah Arison. And so an opportunity to get to work with her day in and day out also is a gift in and of itself. And add on top of that the immensely impactful vision and mission of young arts. Like it was really such a no brainer. And I just have never felt so at home in a role. If I weren't working, I think this is probably what I would spend my time doing.
- [25:15]
Alisa Sue Lynch
That's amazing. Congratulations to find your dream role.
- [25:18]
Clive Chang
Thank you.
- [25:19]
Alisa Sue Lynch
And I agree, Sarah Arison is amazing. So I've gotten the chance to work with her on the ABT board. Yes, she's president of the ABT board of trustees. So you mentioned alumni at young Arts and you have some famous ones now. Yeah, I'll name a few, but you can name a few others. Vanessa Williams, Viola Davis, Desmond Richardson, Timothee Chalamet.
- [25:42]
Clive Chang
Persona non grata.
- [25:46]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So what's your theory of what makes investing early in artists actually matter for their long term trajectories? And if you want to name a few others as well.
- [25:56]
Clive Chang
Yes, yes, yes. You know, I think this hits. Well, certainly hits home deeply for me, but I would imagine for you as well that tender and vulnerable age range of those years immediately before you have to decide where you're going to go to college, if you go to college, what major you're going to take and you know how that's going to then feed into what you're going to become when you're grown up in that range, age range. There are so many voices that are, I think, trying to influence a young person's path. And very often they may be the singularly most talented. You know, insert art form like tap dancer in the entire state of. Insert state Ohio. Right. And they have no peer community. Their parents really are not well versed in what the possibilities are for artists. And thus they have all these voices telling them not to do it. And so part of why we exist is to provide that encouragement and that validation at that very vulnerable moment in a young person's life. And I'm convinced, though we don't have the sort of empirical data to actually prove it, that we have turned many young people who were on the verge of abandoning the path of pursuing life as an artist back on the path because of what we do.
- [27:22]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, that's major.
- [27:23]
Clive Chang
Yeah. And when they win their young Arts award, when they come to Miami, they have this magical week, first of all, taught by their heroes. Right. Like Mikhail Baryshnikov, like Misty Copeland. Right. It's just incredible because it reaffirms for them how and why they got interested in art in the first place. And opening their eyes up to see that there are beautiful and rewarding career paths for artists. And even if you don't become a practicing artist, you bring your artistry into whatever you're going to do later on. And from a theory of change perspective, I think that's really the strongest rationale for the work that we do is that it's a critical inflection point. And an intervention at that moment really actually does change lives. And now we're 24,000 alumni and counting. So the list, it grows by 700 to 800 a year.
- [28:23]
Alisa Sue Lynch
How many different categories are there, or do you view it that way?
- [28:27]
Clive Chang
We do. We do. We currently welcome applications across 10 disciplines. Let me see if I can do them. Classical music, voice, jazz, dance, theater, visual arts, photography, design, film and writing. Oh, my God. I did it.
- [28:42]
Alisa Sue Lynch
You did it.
- [28:43]
Clive Chang
And within each of those 10, there are genres. Okay, Right. So within voice, there's classical voice, jazz voice, pop voice, singer, songwriter. Within dance, there's ballet, tap, jazz, modern, hip hop. You can imagine sort of how that tree unfolds. And to my earlier point, young artists today are showing up crossing those lines more and more. Right. You have this, like, really gifted hip hop dancer who also is a talented filmmaker, or you have this cellist who is a gifted poet. And our future, a lot of our time is in thinking about how we might evolve our discipline structure to be able to welcome artists who actually practice across multiple artists identities. We don't want to force them into a box. Right. And we could probably talk about that for another entire episode. But our ecosystem currently is set up to force artists down one path. Like, by the time they go to Juilliard, their teacher wants them to become, like, first chair of the London Symphony. Right. And so I think we'll do what we can from our vantage point, but I think the ecosystem has to start to grapple with its structures, its legacies right now that I think are still funneling young artists into specialization and narrowing instead of broadening. And contemporary artistic practice is really about the blurring of those disciplinary boundaries. So we have a lot of work to do as an ecosystem.
- [30:24]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, Very interesting. Wow. All right, Clive, it's now time for the Elisa asks rapid fire questions.
- [30:32]
Clive Chang
Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm ready.
- [30:36]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Sondheim or Schubert?
- [30:37]
Clive Chang
Oh, Sondheim.
- [30:39]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay. I've also heard you're a fitness fanatic, so how many push ups can you do?
- [30:43]
Clive Chang
Actually, a lot. So I often do the hundred push ups for time. I think the quickest I've ever done it is 3 minutes and 10 seconds.
- [30:50]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Wow. Okay. Yes, we might have time today. What's something you and your twin sister do not have in common?
- [30:59]
Clive Chang
Oh, good question. I think a boisterous personality.
- [31:05]
Alisa Sue Lynch
She does not have one. Is your doctor sister not going to be happy with this answer?
- [31:10]
Clive Chang
Dr. Chang, I think, would consider herself an introvert. Yes.
- [31:15]
Alisa Sue Lynch
What is your go to karaoke song?
- [31:18]
Clive Chang
Oh, my gosh. It's probably something. Whitney Houston. It's probably Natural Woman. Okay. I know.
- [31:24]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay, so you're a good singer too.
- [31:26]
Clive Chang
I mean, my husband would argue with that, but, you know, in my mind, I'm a great singer.
- [31:31]
Alisa Sue Lynch
That's what karaoke is for. We're all great singers.
- [31:34]
Clive Chang
I sound great in the shower. The acoustics are really good.
- [31:39]
Alisa Sue Lynch
What's the last thing you Googled?
- [31:42]
Clive Chang
Oh, I think it might have been instructions on resetting the time on, like, this particular air fryer model that I lost the manual for, because, you know, these days, literally, I go to Google for everything.
- [31:57]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah. Or YouTube.
- [31:58]
Clive Chang
Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Cuisinart. How do I change the time? I'm sorry that wasn't a more inspiring answer.
- [32:05]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Well, I was hoping it was, you know, one of the episodes of the leadership dance podcast, but that's okay. What's one word your friends would use to describe you?
- [32:15]
Clive Chang
Energetic.
- [32:17]
Alisa Sue Lynch
And favorite song or type of music to Dance to.
- [32:20]
Clive Chang
Oh, to dance to. Oh, gosh, I'm such a terrible dancer. I don't even know what to say.
- [32:27]
Alisa Sue Lynch
I can't believe that.
- [32:28]
Clive Chang
Oh, no, it's probably Whitney again. It's probably. I want to dance with somebody.
- [32:33]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. You made it through the questions. So you've talked about wanting to innovate like a startup inside a 40 year old institution, which Young Arts is. How do you push for change without losing the legacy and what made the organization successful and trusted.
- [32:53]
Clive Chang
Yeah, yeah. It's certainly very relevant to our chapter now because of the tremendous growth that we're facing and also still aspiring for over the next five years, where our 45th anniversary is next year. And so we think of this stretch from 45th to 50th as exponential growth. I referenced KPIs earlier. I'm reminded that often, especially longstanding staff who have sort of been there to see and directly contributed to what already are the beautiful successes of the organization are not necessarily fans of change for the sake of change. And so I think it's important to orient change around outcomes. So what are we actually trying to accomplish? Oh my goodness, look, our applications have grown from 7,000 to 13,000. What do we need to change to make sure we meet that demand? Right. So I think it's always finding the right vocabulary by which to frame the need for change and not leading with change because it's then unattached to or devoid of a relation to the greater purpose. Sometimes I also think you just need to throw a little like, what's the thing in the science experiment where you put in the, is it detergent and you mix something and then like it makes the paper boat go? Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [34:29]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Oh, you just made me think of like baking soda.
- [34:31]
Clive Chang
Oh yeah, the volcano thing.
- [34:33]
Alisa Sue Lynch
But no, I don't know.
- [34:34]
Clive Chang
But sometimes you need to throw like one of those things, right? So I always tell my team that I'm allowed to have three like things where Clive gets to go a little rogue in a year. The current thing is I'd like us to pilot a little AI tool because AI is naturally, like permanent. I think part of young people's lives today. Like, it is what it is, like you can't avoid it. And two, I think it has potential to really help alleviate a lot of the backlog that we face sometimes when we have hundreds, if thousands of young people, you know, reaching out to us with questions and that rely on a staff member responding to the email and da, da, da, Da da da da. Sometimes it's just like throwing a little teaser into the mix and see what happens. And I think usually you will find a particular individual who happens to really be a champion of a certain idea, who takes it and runs with it. And I also think of it as a great talent development tool to see who rises up and decides to take it on as their baby and who can become a really great success story that can be celebrated across the organization. It's never easy, but I think reframing around outcomes is the way that I have found the most success in advocating for change.
- [36:01]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Well, I think AI Pilot sounds like a natural thing to pursue. And I love that idea of finding internal champions within the organization to kind of lead the initiatives for you.
- [36:12]
Clive Chang
Yeah.
- [36:12]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay. So you have said that every corporate board would be lucky to have an artist in the mix. I really love that. Make the case though, Clive. So what specifically does an artist see or bring that others don't?
- [36:26]
Clive Chang
Yes, and I think I'm looking at. I'm staring directly at one right now. A dancer board director. I think about the dancer who can see something in a room that nobody else can see. Whether it's body language related, whether it's some sort of like sense and intuition. I think about a composer or not even a composer. I think about an ensemble musician who can hear what's not being said in a certain line of dialogue. My thesis is that 95 plus percent of the time we experience humans artistry in the world is actually not on a stage. It's actually not like on a gallery or a museum wall. It's through interactions like the one we're having right now. It's some beautiful designer made this chair that I'm sitting on right now. Some beautiful engineer created these microphones, the environments that we live in. I'm just reminded that we actually cannot escape the hand of the artist. We tend to take for granted the value that artists can bring across all walks of life. And when we think about a corporate boardroom, it just is not a natural thought. But why not?
- [37:51]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Right.
- [37:51]
Clive Chang
You know?
- [37:52]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Well, I think for me it is. You just bring a different way of seeing the world and from your lived experience. And that perspective can prompt others to think differently.
- [38:06]
Clive Chang
Yes.
- [38:06]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Experience and view a problem that's on the table in a different way.
- [38:11]
Clive Chang
Absolutely.
- [38:12]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Which leads to creativity. Because I think artists often can unleash creativity in others.
- [38:17]
Clive Chang
Absolutely. Artists ultimately are storytellers. Artists ultimately. What was that beautiful phrase that Darren Walker said? Artists are the. Artists are the historians of our collective human Experience. I think that's what he said.
- [38:34]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Oh, that's beautiful.
- [38:35]
Clive Chang
And I'm like, so true. And we just tend to forget that. Yeah. Maybe one day you'll work on an initiative with me and we'll get an artist onto 100 corporate boards.
- [38:48]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yes. All right, let's do it. Let's do it. So you've maintained an active career as a musician and composer throughout your life. What are you working on lately?
- [38:59]
Clive Chang
I just took on a new project with a friend and a beautiful photographer and visual artist. Her name is Anastasia Samilova. She was actually a guest artist at Young Arts for the last two years. I adore her work, first of all, but she has invited me to compose the score for a new photography exhibition that will open in Italy in October. And so I'm really, really looking forward to that project. I have also been a very, very good friend lately and played a lot of friends weddings.
- [39:33]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Okay. What kind of music do you play often?
- [39:37]
Clive Chang
It's my own piano arrangements of pop songs. So I'll ask them, you know, what in your fantasy world, what are you walking down the aisle to? Or what would you like? The most elaborate one was actually I had to write a multi part musical theater arrangement for a particular friend. She happened to be a musical theater singer and invited a bunch of musical theater friends.
- [40:02]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Oh, wow.
- [40:04]
Clive Chang
And we did a flash mob.
- [40:06]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Oh, that's amazing.
- [40:07]
Clive Chang
In the middle of the ceremony, like it was. It was pretty intense.
- [40:09]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yes.
- [40:10]
Clive Chang
I don't get to compose as much as I'd like to, but certainly welcome any and all chances to, you know, revisit my artistry.
- [40:19]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah.
- [40:20]
Clive Chang
I certainly hope from this moment forward, artistry will take up a larger and larger proportion of my just mindshare and life going forward. So hopefully that we're manifesting that right here.
- [40:34]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yes, yes.
- [40:35]
Clive Chang
It will come true.
- [40:36]
Alisa Sue Lynch
And will you be able to go to Italy and actually play the music for the photography exhibition?
- [40:42]
Clive Chang
I will. I plan to go for the opening. This will be recorded and played on a loop. I think the music will likely be, what, five minutes long or so. But the beautiful part of the creative process is that the artist and I will get to. Once we have a full set of the images and once we have some first drafts of ideas of music, we'll get to play together and say, all right. It will actually then influence how she puts together how these images will sort of play in a slideshow. So it's going to be a fun and interactive kind of back and forth creative process.
- [41:18]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Yeah, yeah. True collaboration.
- [41:20]
Clive Chang
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:22]
Alisa Sue Lynch
All right. Last question. What advice would you give to your younger self about navigating your career while staying true to yourself?
- [41:29]
Clive Chang
That's such a big one, I think, I would say throughout your career, and I think, well throughout your entire career, but especially at the earliest stages, there will be so many voices that out of very, very good intention are telling you to do it this way, do it that way. And one, I would just encourage one to really never lose sight of who they authentically are in taking any of that advice, you know, And I'll give one anecdote. I have had some great bosses in my life. All of them have been western and they've primarily been, you know, CIS males Western. And there was a moment I remember when one piece of advice I got was, you need to sit at the head of the table for this meeting. Well, first of all, in Chinese culture, our tables are round, so there is actually no head. And I think back to my most effective leadership experiences as me being in a circle with 20 singers, right? And me then at that moment making a choice and saying, you know, there's a lot I want to accomplish in this meeting. I feel I will be most effective at the center of the table around my peers. Even as micro an example as that is, in a moment, having the courage in those moments not to like, that's not a in defiance of your boss. Like, respectfully saying, you know, I think I have another way of doing this and let me show you. Yeah, right. And hopefully your boss will learn something from this too. And so being fully yourself while taking the advice of these people who mean really well and are trying to help you, they really are, but you have to negotiate it to be as true
- [43:27]
Alisa Sue Lynch
to yourself as possible, you know, that's very inspirational. Thank you for sharing that.
- [43:31]
Clive Chang
Thank you.
- [43:33]
Alisa Sue Lynch
So, Clive, I've loved this conversation with you. Thank you so much for sharing your leadership dance on the podcast.
- [43:39]
Clive Chang
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. What a pleasure.
- [43:42]
Alisa Sue Lynch
Like, follow and Share the Leadership Dance, where we explore how to choreograph the career of your dreams and chat with visionary leaders in business and the arts. Until next time, keep dancing. Wave to Earth the Pieces tour live across North America.
- [44:09]
Clive Chang
Get tickets now at livenation. Com.