103. Get Your Mind Right: Linking Sessions

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 103: Get Your Mind Right: Linking Sessions
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins & Dr. Ryan Raina
Release Date: December 3, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the crucial but often tricky skill of "linking sessions" within Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Raina candidly share their personal growth areas and practical strategies for effectively connecting the work of previous sessions to the present, especially with challenging couples. The discussion aims to help therapists (new and seasoned) create more continuity, coherence, and impact in their therapeutic process, honoring both client work and the cumulative journey of healing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Challenge—and Necessity—of Linking Sessions

• Both hosts admit linking sessions can be a weakness, particularly with tough cases or when session flow is disrupted.
• Effective linking ensures therapy is a cumulative process, preventing each session from feeling like an isolated encounter.

“Sometimes it’s linking together so that way it doesn’t feel like every session … is an island.”
— Dr. Ryan Raina [00:44]

The Tango Model and “Flagging the Minefield”

• Linking relates to “Tango Move Five,” where therapists summarize, affirm risks taken, and anticipate challenges (“flagging the minefield”) to prepare clients for recurring pitfalls.
• The approach isn’t just about critique; it balances affirming growth with spotlighting harmful “protection moves” that derail progress.

“My job is to start the session holding up a loving mirror, but a clear mirror … It can land confrontationally. So I’m trying to find language to think through: How can I hold up the mirror about this toxic protection move in a way that’s honoring, humanistic, loving—but also clear?”
— Dr. James Hawkins [02:32]

Practical Techniques for Session Linking

• Make a clear, concise note at the end of each session about where the couple left off and where to pick up next time. Review these before the next session.
• Balance pre-session preparation with openness to new, unexpected events or changes the clients bring into the room.

“If I’m being a healthy version of James in a way, before my clients come in, I try and … read some of those statements. What I’m doing is loading my nervous system in my mind already—so if this is where they were, how are you going to pick that up?”
— Dr. Ryan Raina [03:47]

The Ultimate Compliment: Remembering and Building

• Linking is framed as a way to honor the client’s efforts, showing the therapist is attuned, attentive, and invested in their unique journey.
• Over-linking (clinging too tightly to previous content and not being present) is cautioned against.

“How would you feel if you went into a surgeon’s office and they forgot who you were? … I’m not coming back to you.”
— Dr. James Hawkins [06:09]

“Can you over-link? … She goes, ‘You’re working with what’s in front of you.’ So it is here and now.”
— Dr. James Hawkins [07:02]

Metaphors: Flagging the Minefield and The Pothole

• “Flagging the minefield” means openly discussing known cycle triggers to prepare clients for similar moments.
• “The pothole” metaphor speaks to recurring patterns—if you keep hitting the same pothole, it needs to be addressed, not ignored.

“The cycle’s not done with you. When the cycle comes at you … it’s going to tell you to go away. … I want you to have your head up for that this week.”
— Dr. James Hawkins [07:57]

“If every time you make a right turn, you hit the same pothole and it blows your tire out … why would we not talk about that?”
— Dr. James Hawkins [11:47]

Therapist Language and Client Understanding

• Therapists must translate EFT concepts into both client and therapist language, making patterns and process explicit without shaming or diagnosing clients in their worst moments.

“Finding your EFT language is very important … if we assume that they see what we see, we’re just setting ourselves up for frustration because they don’t.”
— Dr. Ryan Raina [16:03]

• Authenticity and humanism matter—clients notice genuine attention, which boosts trust and engagement.

“He stopped me and goes, ‘How do you remember that? Your memory is incredible,’ which it isn’t. But … it’s a big deal that I brought his protection move back in front of him and his partner.”
— Dr. James Hawkins [15:14]

Linking in Practice: Synthesis and Flexibility

• Focus on each partner’s core “protection move,” its function (attachment survival mechanism), and its impact on the relationship.
• Validate these moves while highlighting their costs, then ask, “Is your relationship in one of those places today, or is it different?”

“Write down what is each person’s primary protection move that hurts their relationship and hurts the therapeutic process? … How does that make sense from an attachment lens? … How can I show its impact? … And then tie them together … Is your relationship in one of those places … or somewhere different?”
— Dr. James Hawkins [19:26–20:35]

Therapist Self-Reflection and Growth

• Evaluate your linking after each session or series: Did you make sense of what happened? Did you give a vision or pathway forward? Practice and refine your language regularly.

“Practice finding your language and think about … would you feel like the way you just described it to that couple … my therapist did a great job making sense out of what we did today?”
— Dr. James Hawkins [18:55]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Session Beginnings:
  “How are you going to start your session … get your mind right? We want to talk about linking … to last session.”
  — Dr. James Hawkins [00:01]

• On Finding Hope and Flagging Triggers:
  “You all have everything it takes to have a great relationship. Let’s be clear—the cycle’s not done with you.”
  — Dr. James Hawkins [07:57]

• On Client Experience:
  “If every time I come in here, I’ve got to start from square one all over, are we making any progress?”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina [06:18]

• On Therapist Growth:
  “Doing good EFT is like speaking a foreign language—you have to continue to engage with people who speak it, or you’re going to go back into our linear sort of shame performance world.”
  — Dr. James Hawkins, quoting Jennifer Walrod [16:56]

• On Self-Evaluation:
  “Can you practice going back … say, how did I do in that five? Did I make it clear? Did I link to where we were?”
  — Dr. James Hawkins [18:55]

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Practical Takeaways for Therapists

• End sessions by summarizing key points and flagging likely cycle triggers; make a note of where to pick up next.
• Before each session, review your linking notes and get “your mind and nervous system ready.”
• Focus your linking on each partner’s main “protection move,” validate it, but make the attachment cost and impact clear.
• Be willing to abandon your planned linking if clients arrive in a different emotional space.
• Regularly self-reflect and even role-play your linking language—“What would it feel like to be on the receiving end of myself as a therapist?”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:01 — Opening: The importance of linking sessions
• 02:10 — Tango Move Five and “flagging the minefield”
• 03:47 — Dr. Raina’s session preparation tactics
• 06:09 — Linking as client honor and over-linking caution
• 07:51 — Using metaphors and tangible examples
• 11:47 — The pothole metaphor
• 14:36 — Concrete language for starting tough sessions
• 16:03–16:56 — The importance of EFT language; shout-outs to mentors
• 19:26–20:35 — Synthesizing protection moves and linking practically

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Final Reflections

Both hosts reinforce that effective session linking isn’t about rigid adherence to prior content, but about holding the cumulative process with presence, clarity, and care. This episode equips listeners with metaphors, scripts, and mindset shifts to “get your mind right” and better support both therapist and client growth at the leading edge.

“We are our very best therapists when we’re just focused on what we can control. If I start trying to think too much outside I actually lose my focus.”
— Dr. James Hawkins [21:58]

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Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

How are you going to start your session in our series here, get yout Mind Right? We want to talk about linking this session and how we start it to last session or the most recent information about the cycle. Linking sessions get your mind right.

[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy. With your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

All right, Ryan, I'm excited about this one because sometimes, if I'm honest, like, this can be a weak point for me. Sometimes it's linking together so that way it doesn't feel like every session. While it's new and different, it's not. Every session's an island. And of itself, there's a. A cumulative process of our work. Y so today we're going to talk about linking together these sessions.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yep.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

To get help, get your mind right and get the client's mind right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Y It's a weakness of mine, too. I'm working on it, you know, so if you think about Tango five, I'm a little weak. Both sides. So the traditional way you think about Tango 5 is after you sort of finished your work and process the enactment. We're going to offer that summary, tie a bow on it. And then I think it's really best for the couple to affirm all the risks, honor the risks, but then also talk about what the cycle is going to try to do. To flag the minefield is how I was trained to think about that. If you're looking at a minefield and they're about to walk through and you know where the minds are, why not tell them, you know, so get them ready, you know, so affirm them. You know, if you want to talk about hope and good things that you feel, but also to flag the mind, that's a good Tango five. But then I want to start my session in Tango Five two, so not Tango One. And something I've been really working on is linking sessions better, especially my hard cases. So when I have a couple, maybe they're cruising through Stage one, we've kind of. They kind of know their cycle. They're being more careful. They can turn and talk to each other. Really, it's about now taking those new moves into deeper places. In Stage two, I don't work that hard, honestly, at linking sessions. We'll just do a little bit. But when I've got a Couple who's in trouble then I. I am finding myself spending some time looking at last session. You know, for me, it's handwritten notes, you know, grabbing some keywords and especially what is. What is. What are the protection moves that happen that kill the process. And so my job is to start the session holding up a loving mirror, but a clear mirror. And it's a push. There's a push to it. So I'm always going to get into, you know, in your best efforts, you know, and. And here's the good reasons you have to do this. But I'm also going to say, and this is. This is one things that happens. And I'm going to show the impact before they ever say a word. And so especially if one of their protection moves harmed the last session. And then I'm going to try to work to make sure that it's. It's sort of somewhat symmetrical. So I'm looking at both sides. It's a big deal. And it takes some work for me because it's. I know that it can land confrontationally. So I'm trying to find language to think through. How can I link this session? How can I hold up the mirror about this sort of toxic protection move in a way that's honoring humanistic, loving, but also clear. That's right to them that I'm like, hey, you can't. The what I want them to walk away with. I can't keep doing that and have this relationship grow. I do want them to walk away with that.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yep. And we got to. So that's a part of the link. Especially if you learn something and you found where a point was last time, even going to. You found the fray. And the fray even happens to you in session to where they can't like trust that process and stay with it. You. You owe it to them, like to be honest at the beginning to say, like, hey, here's where we were. That's what I typically try to do when I end a session before I go into making the next appointment. I'm even holding my iPad now. I'll try and write a clear statement, like a sentence or something at the end. Like, this is where we are. Here's where I'd like to pick up next time. And I'll usually try and circle that. And then what I try to do, if I'm being a healthy version of James in a way, is before my clients come in, I try and have time at the beginning of the day to look at who's on the docket and read Some of those statements and start kind of like what I'm doing for me is I'm loading my nervous system in my mind already to get it kind of like. So if this is where they were, where would, how are you going to pick that up? How are you going to bring that in? And also, James, how are you going to be open to pivoting if they're in a whole different spot? So that's how I kind of get my mind ready from the end session to the beginning of the next one.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Good. I like it.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah, I like it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And you know, there's, there's, there's practical realities we got to consider. Linking is hard work, you know, because we all got stuff to do. I mean, I come to the office every day with clothes packed to get to the gym, and that's not a trivial thing for me. I don't enjoy it. It's something I do because it's good for me. And so I got a family, I got stuff, you know, so there's a press on my time.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

You got emails to do in between clients.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Let's don't bring that up. So good. Right, exactly. So therefore, you know, oftentimes I'm seven in a row, back to back to back to back to back. And, you know, so then linking sessions takes a little bit of like, how am I going to do that? Where's that going to come from? So I don't think this needs to be some big 30 minute exercise, but probably needs to be a 3. Especially when people are stuck and struggling. We got to find language. And some people like, what if you don't have language? I'm like, could you think of language? They're like, well, yeah, but I can't come up with it in session. Then don't write it out and just say, hey, I want to write this down. I'm sorry, I want to read you what I wrote. And then you tell me if this is on track and read it to them. Linking is the ultimate compliment to your clients. You understand?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I mean, how would you feel if you went into a surgeon's office and they forgot who you were? And you're like, well, is it a knee or a shoulder? I'm like, I'm not coming back to you.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Or we're not even building upon the work that I did last time. It's like, so every time I come in here, I, I got to start from square one all over. Like, where are we going? Are we making any progress?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right? And there is a. I don't Know if it's a contradiction there, because in many ways, you are. You are. You don't. You can definitely over link. That was one of my biggest critiques that Gail gave me years ago when I was certifying. I don't know what year that was, 11 or something. And she. She didn't say the word, but basically I was over linking. So I would have last week's notes in my office and. And someone would start talking about their experience. I'm like, wait, you said, this is it. This is this different. Right. She goes, you're working with what's in front of you. Right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So it is here and now.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But it's really helpful as a compliment to them. And it's a big process to just start the link and then. And then be ready to throw the link out.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because a lot of times they're not where they were.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

There we go.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I almost feel like. It almost feels like in a way, maybe this. I've never said it out loud. It feels like I'm almost conjecturing a possible trigger for today's session in a way. Like, hey, this is where we got stuck at last time. Is that same stuck place still has been happening to you through the week when y' all try and deal with the relationship, and if so, how do you see it still happening? So that's how it is for me. So. But I want to go back to something you said, too. I like that image one, flagging the minefield. And that flagging the minefield is how you're kind of describing what you're doing in Tango Move five.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. At the end of a session.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Can you elaborate on that? Just. So how, like, how could someone, like, how do I flag the minefield? Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Great job today, James. I really appreciate you did something you don't normally do. You let your heart be seen, yada, yada, yada. It gives me lots of hope for your relationship. You all have everything it takes to have a great relationship. Let's be clear. The cycle's not done with you. When the cycle comes at you this week, the cycle is going to tell you to go away. And the cycle is going to tell you if you say something, it's going to make everything worse. And so I want you to have your head up for that this week. If you're a withdrawer.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. So.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And then now, if you start off the next session with, hey, here were some of the flags in the minefield last?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. It's a nice metaphor.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I like that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Yeah, I grew up watching mash. Ever seen mash? Yes, I remember old. But they had a minefield outside their camp and they would get stuck there. Sometimes that flashes to mind. So, yeah, if you know your clients are going into a minefield or if you know that we've just come out of one, why wouldn't we talk about it? And, you know, we do it. We did an episode, I don't know when, a year ago or something on. Get, get out in front of it. Yeah, you know, and I talk about, I reference Terry Real and his, his approach here sometimes, and he says you have to come against what comes against the relationship. The question is, are you going to do it in a humanistic way or in a more of a top down way? But he's right in that way. And so don't, don't keep letting the same thing beat you over and over. You know, if that, if, if your clients change a subject a lot. Right. If they interrupt a lot or if they have more of a protection move in the relationship, start your session talking about, here's the good reasons you have, here's how it lands. Here's, here's the effects, here's the impact and the cost of this. The three of us have to team up to not let this kill us again today. All right, how's the relationship right now as you see here today? So we are going to like, take it back to what's present. But I think it's really, really helpful because again, the longer you've been in a vicious cycle, the less aware, as I'm quoting Sue directly here, the less aware you become on what it's like to be on the receiving end of you. So, you know, going away, if you're a withdrawer, shutting down, it's. That's so obvious. The next move in the dance, you hardly even recognize. I wonder if that hurts my partner. And then sometimes therapists try to force empathy. Like how do you think that lands for your partner? And they're too far ahead. So instead I want to just talk about that protection move really early on.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

All right, let's go ahead and take a break. So I want to take a moment here and make a plug for the International center for Excellence in emotionally focused therapy. I c E-E-F t.com on there you can find, if you're a member of ISEF, you get discounts on online trainings, events and certain training materials. And also there's a host of different articles on there you can find about trainings happening around the World, you can communicate with other ISEF therapists who are caught up in the same process, trying to help couples have success in their vulnerability. So once again, just want to make a plug for the isef. Thank you so much. All right, Ryan, so back at this. So this whole idea of link. I like this, you know, one, I think it's the. The ability to link. For me, it just gives me a focus. Can I speak this here's what's coming up. Because there's different styles, so there's over linking. Can I speak to this? Maybe I want to switch. I want to pivot. What's the danger of maybe not linking? Like, I think you've said it already, but, like, what happens to us when we don't do any linking at all? We've. You said one already. Is kind of a dishonor or maybe not land so well for the client's work and not honor what they've been doing. Is there anything. For me, what's coming up is I think it helps my focus goes away when I'm not seeing the overall process or strain that's running through the treatment process.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, yeah. I think there's several risks of it. You know, I don't know. It's. There's, there's. There's a lot to be said for here and now here and now here. Now, that is where we have to get to get to. But, you know, again, I'm looking at a road outside, and my metaphor brain, you know, you're driving a Toyota, and if every time you make a right turn, you hit the same pothole and it blows your tire out and you're out $300, like, why would we not talk about that? How are we not going to talk about that? This hurts people, you know? And again, what we know from the years of doing this is people don't know they're doing it or don't know that they're the impact. And if they do, they feel such shame, they do it even more. Right? So instead of a shaming approach, I'm going to say it makes such good sense that you make a right right here. That's the way home. That's the way, you know, and yet that pothole right there gets you every time, right? And it blows up the tire. And so now you're even more alone than when you came in here. So today, I want us to work together. We gotta find a different route around that big, huge pothole. That's really what I'm trying to do right there.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay. So the Practical thing. I think I'm taking from here. Like, how could this episode help you get better, James? I like that. Flagging the minefield in move five. Because that move five helps set me up for it. Gives me at least. Hey, you all. This is where we were. I'm not trying to say we gotta be there, but this is where we were before. This is where we were last time. It's. Is there anything different right now?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. And, you know, I had a case a while back, like always that. That teaches me this. And it was a, you know, stage one. We're in, like, session six, really tough session. You know, we got bad. I. I tried to use Frey, didn't. I didn't do a great job with it, honestly. And they got into one of their chronic issues that was pretty tough. And both of them started to do a move. The one partner basically would vent, and then that person would even say, I don't want to share my heart, because I don't know if my partner even has empathy. Right. And. Which is kind of a protest. And then as that went around a few times, the other partner would lean out. Like, not even sure I'm in. I'm feeling this anymore. Right. And that's kind of. It was a tough session. Right. So I remember having a. This will be ideal. Right. In fantasy land. But it did happen the next session. I had an hour off before, and I went for a walk. I'm like, I'm going to get my steps in here and. But I know. I know. I got them coming in.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

There we go.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And they're using language that's pretty serious. And I'm like, all right, how can I find language to start the session? Talking about those two moves.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yes.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It makes such good sense that you take your heart away because you're not even sure your partner wants to hear it.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And yet, here's what the cycle does, and it makes such good sense that, you know, when this gets out of control and I can't win, I don't want to play a game. I can't win, so why step towards this? And that's when you lean out. And yet this. Here's what the cycle does with that. It activates her worst possible fear. Next thing you know, both of you are in the worst possible place. You're a failure. You're feeling like you're alone in the world. Both of you need love. Cycle wins because both of you are left alone. So I guess I'm curious, is that where you two are today or somewhere different right here, right now. And of course, they were somewhere completely different. They had made all kinds of shifts. Sometimes the best thing that can happen is a bad session because it activates people's response system, you know, and you don't want to. You don't want to comfort people too much because there is a purpose for pain in the world. The reason that caught my attention, though, is he stopped me and goes, how do you remember that? Your memory is incredible, which it isn't. But that's what he said. So it caught my attention that he noticed that it's a big deal that I brought his protection move back in front of him and his partners that linked it for me to go, hey, that's important.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Well, you gave it another positive.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And I just want to give a shout out to Lisa Shore, who's a supervisor here in our community.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's intensives.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Hey. Yep, that's right. And Rebecca Jorgensen are two people, I heard, you know, really doing like, hey, your language. Finding your EFT language is very important. Like, how do you, one, find your client's language? But you as a therapist, being able to find a way to describe what's happening and make that clear. Because if we assume that they see what we see, we're just setting ourselves up for frustration because they don't. The negative cycle is blinding their vision. So they need us to put language. And that's part of what we're saying, even with linking here, is can you have fine language to link together the process of what you're doing with them? And I like your image of flagging the minefield, because not only you flagging where the minds are, you're also showing them the path forward for the good parts of where can we walk at then?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yep. I want to go back to. I like what you just did. That sidebar. Then I'll try to come back to where you were. You may have to help me.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You know, credit to Lisa, Becca, obviously, Grady, after years, Becca legend, and Lisa a local legend. Um, and they're right. And. And I think. I think through some of the last conversations I had, business conversations I had with sue before she passed away, is that EFT is a lifelong immersive model. This is this ongoing process. And then I think about Jennifer Walrod, great supervisor out of Montana, and she says she ends trainings like this. She goes, you know, doing good. EFT is like speaking a foreign language. You have to continue to engage with people who speak it, or you're going to go back into our linear sort of shame performance world, which is where our client stories come from, by the way. That's why clients can't tell you what's really wrong. It's not. We don't have an attachment culture. Right. So both of those comments are really important to what you're saying right there. And that all feeds our ability to link this.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. Because it would be easy to die. I could diagnose either one of them. You don't want to diagnose people's behaviors in a cycle.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

It's like, no, that is not fair.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It's not fair.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

If you diagnose me in the cycle, then that's just the worst representation of me.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

As sue would say, it's like diagnosing how a fish jumps around when you take them out of water. You take a human away from safety. We don't dance. Right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. So that's great. Diagnosing me in my fear. But anyway, thank you for giving Jennifer a shout out. Great supervisor and community leader. Yep, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Ryan, I think I found my practical points here. It's. I really want to push myself, and I want to give you all something practical, like, you know, even. You know, even if you can't do it in session. I like what Ryan said on another episode. Can you practice going back to your office and say, how did I do in that five? Did I make it clear? Did I link to where we were and does it get in? Did I give them a vision of maybe where we might come in next time? And if not, just practice. Practice finding your language and think about, even as you say it, what would it feel like if you were on the receiving end of yourself as a therapist, would you feel like the way you just described it to that couple? Like, my therapist did a great job making sense out of what we did today. And I feel like they kind of gave us an idea of where we might go next time, but. But just like what Ryan's been saying. But we're also open to be able to have that freedom to pivot if something else pops up to work with what's happening live and in the room in front of us. Yeah, I don't know. That's my practical takeaways.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I like it. You just gave me some motivation. I was writing that. Writing some of that down as you were saying it, you know, so if you're trying to. If you're like a note taker, if you're. If you're driving, don't take notes. But also if you're on a treadmill, don't take notes, don't send us your bill for knee surgery. But I think it might be helpful if you're just like, hey, I want to try this one time. Here's what I'd say. Write down what, what is each person's primary protection move that hurts their relationship and hurts the therapeutic process? And if it's the same thing, even better, because conciseness is your friend when you're linking. If you go through all the elements of affect, assembly, tempo, whatever is too much.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You're. That doesn't work. So we need a much more miniature, synthesized view of that. So what's, what's their primary protection move that hurts their relationship, hurts the therapeutic process? How does that make sense from an attachment lens? Meaning how is it a survival issue? How is it. How does. What's the function? What's the function? And that's key.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's. That is very practical and specific. Just focus on the protection.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

The function of it and the impact of it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. And then validate it. How can I find a way to validate that? Maybe even a couple of times. And then the big one. How can I show its impact? It makes so much sense that you lean out. Here's. Here's reason one, here's reason two, here's reason three. And yet the cycle takes it twist. It sends the worst possible message to your partner. Next thing you know, you get even more of what you don't want from your partner and you're left alone. And you have to, you know, so all these impacts and then can you tie them together a little bit? Right. And then the next question is the key is that relation. Is your relationship in one of those places right now or somewhere different? How's your relationship right now, today in the room? And if I can do that, I've done my very best work for them. I don't know what's going to happen.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But I feel pretty good. Like, hey, if, if, if they came to me and failed, it's not because I didn't give my best shot.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

That's it. That's all I got. Ryan, you all, thank you so much for once again, just. We're glad that we could do this series to help you out in a sense. I like the visual. We've been saying over and over, the idea behind this series is what are some things I could be thinking about as I'm walking with my couple to go into the room to get my mind right. And to steal what Ryan's language just to do the best possible work I can do today in this session in this 50 minute process.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Thank you for controlling the controllable and letting the uncontrollable the outcomes. Let that go. We are our very best therapists when we're just focused on what we can control. If I start trying to think too much outside I actually lose my focus right there. So thanks for controlling what you can control.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and on his website Ryan Reina Training. You can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website dochawklpc. Com.