C (2:32)

Yeah, I mean I think there's three or four most radical contributions from Sue Johnson to the profession. And one of those top four for sure is attachment. And it's like, duh. If you listen to this podcast, you've heard that, you know, a hundred times, but it is very radical actually to see people's non effective relational behaviors as coming from attachment motivation. Attachment is a, it's a behavioral system, but it's a motivational system. And you, it's not apparent. So you have to be able to see through, you know, extreme pursuing, extreme withdrawing, the cruel things that people say to each other. It takes a, it takes a trained and committed eye to see that as an attachment panic and attachment distress.

A (3:19)

That's right.

C (3:19)

And so that is the motivation we're trying to tap into. But the context is a little bit more was. You may not know this. One of the strange things I do in my career is I'm a security consultant with a, a group called Safe Haven, ironically Safe Haven Security group here for all your security needs. But seriously, do consult with them. I'm one of the mental health people on their team.

A (3:41)

We got to get them to pay us for what you just said we should.

C (3:43)

Now Doug Elm's our friend and he's our boss. He contacted me a month or so ago and said, hey, I want you to make sure you've read this. He wants me to do a presentation in May on something. I don't know. Anyway, great, great, great guy. They do great work with folks. Their whole thing is, is really about non violence and just trying to keep violence from happening. That's the whole mantra of the team. Yeah. And so anyway, he sent me a book and it is on, it is on FBI the development of their behavioral analysis unit. It's a famous book. One of the authors is John Douglas. Ironic there with Sue, Sue's shout out John. Yeah, a little different. John Douglas. But anyway, it gets into profiling and what they've learned and how. They started off actually studying the DSM which they kind of found not so helpful. Sounds familiar. If you know me, you know, and instead learn to see, ask questions, interview, understand motivation and you know, with, with phrases that they come up with like if you can find the why and the how of a murder, then the who becomes much easier to find. And, and you know, if you can understand when you're interviewing a serial killer in prison, if, and you, and you still need information, if you can start to discern what is really driving this person? Is it really power? Or is this, you know, like in Charles Manson's case, he really longed to be famous? And so if you understood that motivation, it informed the questions that you ask. And questions that are asked that are tied into underlying motivation open doors because they already have so much power that's coming from that, whatever that motivational source is. And the converse is also true. So that's a form of attunement that was the context of this. But really getting into motivation, you know, I like what, I like how you started us out in the, in the, in the teaser there by going, and it's not so much something I'm going to ask my client as much as I'm going to ask me, you know, are the questions that I'm asking, is the direction of the session moving towards motive? What's driving this? Or am I getting stuck, you know, in symptoms and, you know, first order kind of change? As Brad Keeney used to say, sometimes you can get stuck rearranging the chairs in the Titanic and miss the point altogether. And that's kind of what happens to all of us when we, when we're not tapped into what's motivating the behavior right in front of us.

A (6:13)

I like that in the moment you said that, you said, well, James, you know, because Ryan said you wouldn't necessarily ask the client, and you probably say, well, why wouldn't I? That just seems like a great question to ask me. Let me go ahead and tell you the answer you're probably going to get if you say, so what's motivating you here? Duh, I want my partner to stop doing that thing that I don't like. That's usually the motivation, whether they say it that way.

C (6:34)

Yeah.

A (6:34)

Or. I liked how I heard Ryan say when I was going through externship, most of your clients are presenting to therapy because they want their partner to stop protecting themselves the way that they do and by some.

C (6:44)

And that's all the partners. Right.

A (6:47)

In other words, stop the withdrawal from withdrawing and stop the pursuit from kind of like their anxious pursuit. So. But that's what they would say is the motivation, but what they often don't get to say. And I had to work with a couple on this other day, like, hey, I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure. And I've been with them for a while, so I could take a few risks, but I'm not sure I'm getting to hear underlying what you're needing your partner to come towards. And in that moment when you make that statement, it feels like you only leave your partner with. The only way to enter this conversation is, I've got to admit I'm a bad guy. But even if they admit that, would that help you? Well, no, not really. Because what do you really need them at? What is it your real heart? What is your heart longing for here? And that I, without thinking about it, I was going towards. What's the motivation behind the energy I'm seeing coming up? And can you send a clearer signal with that? I don't know. That's my take on it.

C (7:36)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You and I were in a meeting today, an SV meeting, and you know, we were. We're planning an event that we're going to do in September, by the way, so keep that in mind. It's going to be a great one, I think. And. And George was going around and saying, what do you want to speak on? Like, if you had to pick a topic? And I'm like, there's a few. But I kind of like to speak about the extreme presentations. Sort of more of a. What would you say, a strident pursuer energy or a really, really vacated withdrawer.

A (8:10)

Bolted. Withdraw.

C (8:11)

Yeah. Avoidant. In one form or another. I really enjoy speaking on that. It's just kind of fun, for one thing, but because it really. It really gives you a chance to. To sort of read in to the unseen. Like, what's driving. What's driving that strident energy. Exactly. And not just get stuck in. Oh, yeah, it's really anxiousness. That's true. But like, that's a little. Still a little symptomy, you know, what really goes on? What is it like to be in the inner world of that person and vice versa over there. For the person who, you know, either says, I don't know a lot, or is constantly reframing in session into positives, you know, which was my last session last night and it was dark, so just sitting in front of them, they're a great couple, but no matter what I brought across to them, they're doing the same move every time, you know, so. And they're even trying to be nice last night in session. But there's. There's just an edge in the look of her eyes, which is saying that something's wrong here. Like someone else see this. Right. And everything went out. When I would go over to the partner, it would be. But it's okay. It's pretty good. Right. And so my ability to feel, to discern what's driving that and Then. And then, if I can feel that just like that investigator in the prison, it informs everything from where I sit in the room to my pacing, to what I'm getting curious about, and even to what. To specifically what I'm saying to validate their experience. And so to me, that's all part of tapping into motivation.

A (9:50)

Yeah. So I'm wondering, should we go ahead and go to break?

C (9:53)

I think so.

A (9:54)

All right, let's do it. Well, this advertisement is a little bit different. Talking about some things that are coming up here. One, we would like to talk about a training coming to the Arkansas center for eft. It's going to be on. It's going to be by our own George Fowler and Lori, Dr. Lori Watson from Foreplay Radio. They're going to be talking about attachment and sex. And I've been to this a couple times with George and Lori over the years, and, man, it's evolved into something really great. So if you say, hey, I want to be a little bit more confident and clear and being able to work with my clients around the sexual cycle, the sexual experience of their relationship from an EFT or attachment frame point, you should be in Arkansas February 27th and 28th. It truly is a. I say it's a game changer training. It was for me.

C (10:47)

It is. And they're still discovering new ground in terms of exactly how to hold these cycles together. And so we would love to have you. We're about 80% full. We have a few more seats left in Arkansas in person. That's February 27th and 28th, 2025.

A (11:03)

There we go.

C (11:04)

So if you hear this podcast afterwards, you have to catch George and Lori somewhere else, but I hope you do because it's cutting edge stuff.

A (11:10)

And also we want to talk about the externship coming up here in Arkansas July 29th through August 1st. You. I would say, I love the training here in Arkansas. There's a lot of great places. But what I love here is the community that happens. It's often a think tank for us for the Leading Edge podcast for success and vulnerability, for some of the stuff that George does with Lori as well. And it's just a great community. The facilitators are highly trained. They've been mentored for years. So they go into those groups really ready to guide you and be with you. And we keep a mix of facilitators. We even have some new ones because they keep us on our cutting edge about how to make that training a good experience in Arkansas. While it might not have a lot of like, you know, shows and amenities. It's just beautiful and it's relaxing and once again, just you'll get to meet people from all around the world. It amazes me the people that travel into Arkansas to train with us. So we'd love to have you July 29th through August 1st.

C (12:05)

Yep. Come watch George Fowler do a live session. If you've. If you've already done externship before, we'd love to give you like a 50% discount. So come check out externship in Arkansas. It's a special experience.

A (12:18)

All right, Ryan, so back at it. So I guess now usually, you know, after break we try and get a little bit more practical. And I'm thinking about and tell me if I'm on the right track with you in this motivation and some of it even in difficult presentations. I remember working with one couple and one partner, had a very high profile, powerful job that would be in our society. And just sometimes the way this person would come off, it would just seem so smug, even towards me, towards their partner. It was kind of off putting for me at times. And I had to do some self of the therapist talk. I had to pull up Sue's voice and say, you know, when you're frustrated with your clients, empathize, empathize, empathize. And without having heard Ryan talk about this, I went towards the person's kind of motivation and just naming it out loud and exploring it. And I had to do something like, hold on, hold on, hold on. I think I'm starting to see it here. You are really working hard for your family because this is what you went through as a child. And now in this place, what you're trying to do is set your family up to have to. To succeed and to carry on this family legacy. And then when you're trying to do all of this, though, no one understands it, no one gets it. And then you get upset because then you get upset and you get a little bit louder because you're really trying to get them to hear you. Because if they would hear you, it would make sense to them. They would see your vision and your family would be on the right track. Am I kind of getting what's happening for you here? And what I was trying to do was I was trying to win him over in a way, like, I see what's motivating you. I get it and I validate it. That then that opened up the space to help. Challenge though, like, while this is your hope, can we see how this is landing on your partner right not sure how I'm doing with that.

C (14:01)

Like you're doing excellent.

A (14:03)

Okay.

C (14:03)

Yeah. I mean, that's not surprising. You're an excellent clinician. And what's so incredible about what you're doing right there is most people's protective state repel others. That's why they're in your office, because it won't work. You know, we all do some protective moves, but if it's done rigidly like you're describing, that has to somehow shift or this person will be alone for the rest of their life. And so that's also true for the therapist. And so when someone does their, their. When they get rid of their protection, oftentimes we go away. So that's that first thing that you just did beautifully is you went right towards it and tried to apply an attachment, meaning attachment frame. As you validated the function of this multiple times and as he nods his head yes, just like you're doing with me right now, what he now shows you is his motivation, which might be his fears of what goes wrong if he doesn't do that, that'd be my educated guess, you know, or whatever is driving this. And so that's, that's what's so key. And we probably don't use that word enough.

A (15:04)

Motivation.

C (15:05)

Yeah, we tend to say, you know, go to the function of the protection to get to the emotion, which. Emotion and motivation are the same word, by the way.

A (15:16)

That's literally what emotion is, what's moving them.

C (15:18)

Or modus, which is the Latin word. Yeah, right. So that's what we're talking about. That's, that's part of why EFT is so powerful, is it? It's because emotion and motivation really can't be separated. It's driving that. But I love what you did right there. And it's so it's such a key thing because until you can work with that, he's going to continue to push that button.

A (15:39)

That's right.

C (15:39)

Because it have another button.

A (15:41)

Yeah.

C (15:41)

Right. And you also can't give him new buttons. No, he has to find new buttons that were there the whole time hidden.

A (15:48)

And that's exactly right. And you know, here's the part where it hits me personally now, even as we talk about it, there are times, even in my own relationship I could talk about, if I could talk about specific things that maybe I didn't like or whatever. But to talk about what's motivating me, why I'm even having the heart conversation, that's more revealing of me, that's more vulnerable to Say like, hey, I need to talk to you about this. Because when you said this, it hurt me. And what I want to know, it's like, you know, how do you see me? Or how do you see us? Or, you know, what is it going to be like? I want to know that when I speak, when I speak up, am I going to be hurt? Like, to have to talk about what's motivating me in the moment, it's revealing, vulnerable. Yeah, I don't want to say that word. Right. But I mean, it is to say like, hey, I want to stay here and get what's really motivating you. I want to stay here and explore because that deserves to be heard. And if we don't. And here's the hard part for us in our clinical work, our clients don't know that. Sometimes they don't stop to talk about it. They'll talk to you about events and things and stop this and stop. But they're like, hey, can you give your chance, your partner a chance to hear what's motivating your heart so that they could dial them in. And my. My thought behind that, Ryan, is because if I can talk about what's motivating me, that has a higher percentage chance of evoking empathy from my partner. If I can talk about what's motivated, it draws a target more clear, and it has the highest percentage chance of evoking empathy.

C (17:12)

Yeah. And this is why EFT works. It gets to the heart. It gets. That's what sue would say. Gets to the motivation. You're right on. And I love that you're hot. Excuse me? I love that you're highlighting that, the kind of motivation we're talking about, because I guess there could be different motivations, right?

A (17:28)

Yeah, that's fair.

C (17:29)

I mean, self protection, even selfishness stuff has motivation in it. But the kind of motivation we're talking about, that attachment motivation.

A (17:36)

That's right.

C (17:36)

It's very vulnerable. And. And, you know, it's easier to want to, like, instruct your kid or yell at your kid, not that anybody's ever done that before, than it is to say, hey, here's what I'm afraid of. Here's how much you mean to me. And I fear that this might happen, and that's what's driving Daddy's energy right here. That takes more work. It takes more energy, and it changes everything.

A (18:03)

But also, I would argue, and maybe, you know, we can submit, but, like, that's effective because it's like, it's like I'm not just Getting on you to your room about the aesthetics of your room is because there's a bigger lesson at it behind this for me, and that's what I really want you to learn. Because even if you can understand that lesson, even if your room is a mess, you know, we still want to deal with it, but that's survivable, you know? I don't know. That's a good one.

C (18:24)

Yeah, it's. It doesn't take much to be able to play out. Look, if. If my child leaves home and this is how they take care of things, how's their life going to go?

A (18:34)

Yep.

C (18:35)

Can they be successful anywhere in life? Right. That. That's a fear. And, and that's. But it's, it's motivated by how much you love your kid.

A (18:43)

There you go.

C (18:44)

And that you want to see them do well.

A (18:46)

That's right.

C (18:46)

You don't want to see them get hurt. And we just, I think most cultures, modern cultures, just have a void of even showing that motivation. And so you could argue what drives these cycles is just a void and showing what's really motivating this.

A (19:04)

That's right. And when you think about it now, you got me running. Like, the people or companies or organizations I can trust are ones who can be transparent with what's motivating them. With me, they can say like, hey, here's what we're after. Here's what we're trying to achieve. Oh, it's like you're showing me your cards in a way, and I can appreciate that.

C (19:22)

Yeah. And this is repetitive at this podcast, so whatever episode this is 103 or something, you know, so sorry for the repeat kind of sorry. Not sorry, but, you know, without some intentionality, you're not going to see this kind of motivation because it's vulnerable. Because your clients don't always know. They get. We, they, we, we're all clients, get locked into a story, a narrative, blame defenses. And then the longer we do that, it's like, it's like the, the ocean takes us further and further and further away from that. That more vulnerable motivation. So you got to decide before you go in. So I love the metaphor we were talking about just before we came on. Sorry to topic jump around here, but we're talking about a workout thing that I'm doing right now where I do cold plunges. Yeah, you may have heard that before. So. So it's. It's wintertime right now when we're recording this. And so I was in there. I'm going to go and be in there in two hours. I was in there on Monday or Sunday. You know, it's about 44 degrees water, and I'm going in for five minutes, and the first thing I do is I walk in, but then I go underwater, and then I fight it. I fight the pain of. And the panic of that cold of a water. And we were telling stories about some kids who were trying to do it. They can't do it. And you made a great comment. What'd you say you'd have to do? What?

A (20:46)

Wait. Oh, me? Oh, I have to just jump right in because if I let my toe touch that water, my body's gonna eject out of there.

C (20:54)

Yeah. And I think that's the parallel here about. About going deep and really being with clients. You have to decide before you get there.

A (21:01)

Oh, yeah.

C (21:02)

So I walk out of a locker room out to an outdoor pool, and I've decided. I've decided I'm going in and I'm gonna stay for my five minutes. I got my little neoprene footies on, so they're like an idiot, but I'm going. There's no. There's no. There's no question about that.

A (21:18)

All right, let's double click on that. There's another thing I want to ask you, but I like that. That when Ryan did say that to me as we were walking in the room, literally, that's a big one. With if I want to help you, that. Why he. When he said that, it hit me. I feel like that's something Ryan and George helped me with. Is when you're working with emotion, don't. I want to. You want to be cautious and pace, but don't halfway try and do it like, oh, I'm going to kind of touch emotion, Let me bounce out. But it's like, hey, if you're going to go towards it, go towards it, be clear about it, be deliberate about it. But then here's what I want to ask you.

C (21:50)

That's. That's a huge part of getting your mind right.

A (21:52)

Yeah, that's right.

C (21:52)

Right. And we're not saying force your way through protection into vulnerability, but what we are saying is when. When space comes in and you can go be with people and use yourself fully in grieve, you have to have already decided that before you walk in.

A (22:07)

That's right.

C (22:08)

It's not going to be a moment by moment choice. It's already a play, a position of.

A (22:12)

Your heart if you want to hear myself talk. And this one kind of was influenced by Sue Leanne and Catherine de Bruyne, It's. I've said I'm gonna go find the fear and the pain, and when I get a hold to it, we're going to work with it. But I'm going in and I'm looking for it anyway. Let me go back, because you're good at this. I'm gonna put you on the spot, Ryan. But I like this. I want to make that practical about, like, what would that therapist inner dialogue? What might it sound like to get their mind right to go into session and be looking for motivation? If you've done success and vulnerability, Ryan sometimes he comes up with the idea where we do these videos where the therapist will be sitting in front of the camera just thinking, and then Ryan's behind a microphone talking as though he's the therapist voice inside their head. But if you have that moment and our listeners were going in, trying to think about, I'm gonna go get into the motivation for my clients. What might their inner self talk sound like?

C (23:08)

That is putting me on the spot.

A (23:09)

I know.

C (23:10)

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is just going, okay, what's driving this? What's driving this? You know, can I. Can I see the little boy on the couch? Like, what is his heart really looking for? What is. What is her heart really afraid of? What is their heart hurt by? Right here? Right. I mean, attachment, emotion, and pain are all motivations. So trying to just see that and feel that and make a space for. For the driver here and not get caught up in, in the story, like we always say. I don't know. That's what comes to mind.

A (23:44)

No, thank you. I like how you even started that off. And then I want to add, I feel I heard, like, Leanne's voice now, too, is like, when I see reactivity, it's okay, don't freak out that reactivity is there because there's fear of pain that has not been seen and validated. My job is to go find the fear and the pain because that's just their body's way to get someone to see it. But when it doesn't feel safe. So that's what I'm going to tap into today and find that. And what I found this. Now I'm hearing Sue. I play a video now by sue, use it at the beginning of training sometimes. And it's her talk on why therapists work with emotion. And she gives the point of emotion is very rational when you see it in its context. And that's why I like that you brought this up. The Emotion is very rational because it's trying to move them towards an attachment motivation, which is I need to connect with somebody in my distress. I need to re. Connect with my tribe or my people kind of in a way. Yeah, yeah.

C (24:41)

So she's saying the, the sensibility of emotion is always attachment motivated. That's what she's trying to say. Exactly.

A (24:52)

And that's why she is completely rational. She's like, I've never seen an irrational emotion, but I've seen a lot of irrational thinking.

C (25:00)

Because thinking can go both ways, right?

A (25:01)

That's right.

C (25:02)

We're, we're all pretty good at coming up with a frame that protects something and that's not crazy. And done in small ways, no big deal, when done rigidly is deadly.

A (25:13)

There we go.

C (25:14)

Yeah. So got to get to that motivation.

A (25:16)

You know, I hope this is helpful. Like, you know, there's so many topics and things that people can focus on and they, and they are important. Please hear that. But if you go towards the topic without getting the motivation, I feel like you're going to still be lost in the woods. You got to get to the attachment motivation to help make sense of the behavior you're seeing. If not, you will be lost without a compass.

C (25:38)

You can give people all kinds of skills and resources. If you don't make a change at the motivation level, they just can't sustain it. Which is why the, the outcome research, especially with couples therapy, has such high recidivism is we're doing good stuff. No matter what you're doing, if you're doing speaker, listener still, or whatever, whatever communication stuff you're doing, your intentions are good. I'm sure what you're saying is accurate. If it doesn't get to the motivation, if it doesn't get and stay install at that motivation level, they're going to fall apart again. And, and often not only that, that can be really demoralizing for folks. And so it's, I think it's just something to be thinking about between sessions, you know, maybe even the middle of session. Like, all right, am I, am I driving up motivation here or am I getting lost in what the cycle does to them or what the cycle tells them to do?

A (26:31)

Or even if you find yourself after the session, like, man, I was just completely lost. I didn't get it to say, like, go back, like what was motivating them there that maybe I didn't catch. And you can, you can lead off with that in the next session, you know, and as we're saying this, I've just Thought we haven't done one of the things we like to do. Thank you. Thank for all of you out there as therapists and your motivation. Like, I think it's good.

C (26:54)

Oh, you took mine.

A (26:55)

Really? I got it, man.

C (26:56)

We can both do it.

A (26:57)

But I think it is, like, even for you, maybe at the beginning, you know, once again, we are dating ourselves here. This is the beginning of 2025. And. And what's motivating you? Like, seriously, what motivates you in this profession? What motivates you to listen to podcasts like this or to go to trainings to remember your why? You know, I listened to. What is his name? Simon Sinek. He does, like, a lot of leadership talks, and he just gets into. He's like, always know your why. And that's what you really sell. You're not selling a product. He said, it's your why. That's what will motivate people to come towards you. What's your why? And same thing with our clients. What's their why? And make sure to find that. But just thank you for your why and why you're dedicated to your profession and getting better.

C (27:38)

Yeah, I want to thank you for the same thing. Thank you for your why, for your motivation. An early mentor of mine was named Brad Keeney. Brilliant, brilliant dude. And he would say. What does he say? Good therapy is when the light in the therapist hits the same space with the light from the client. That's a good thought. And I think it's true for motivation as well. Right? When my motivation, what really drives me from my heart, like, the reason I'm showing up daily, the reason this is a calling for me. When my motivation taps into their motivation, we hit this new space of being together, which creates new space for them. You know, I was working with a new intern today. Seems brilliant. She seems awesome. And, you know, I asked them the question, first time I've ever met him, like, what do you. What happens for you if you lose. If you lose orientation and session? And she's. I immediately go to resources. I give them resources. And I'm like, that's a great part of you. I love that motivation. Because you giving them resources is your body trying to say, I want this to be better for you. And now the training for your next three decades is how can I learn to harness that motivation? Not by giving them resources which miss their motivation, but use my motivation to go find theirs.

A (28:59)

There we go. And now, I know I'm add on one thing here now, but I like that. And it just reminded Me sometimes in my hardest cases, when they're locking down in their protection. One move I've used to try and help there is I declare my motivation for them.

C (29:13)

I like it.

A (29:14)

And I'll say, like, hey, I'm sorry, I'm jumping back in here and I'm slowing it down because I see something that's important that both of you are experiencing. And I need to stay here to fight for the two of you because if we don't get this clear, I see how it will leave you perpetually stuck in the same place. And that would break my heart to see two people who love each other to let something not be made clear, and it keeps them worlds apart. So I start declaring my motivation. And by the way, I need to let it come from a true place in me. Going back to our last episode, that's where I need to bring my heart into the therapeutic practice. I know we talk a lot about focus and blocks, but don't make a mistake. Me and Ryan really do care about our clients and we let that inform us and guide us as we're doing the work.

C (29:59)

That's good, man. You do such a good job with that and I don't. So this is good for me. I'm going to pay you. I'm sending in something on the. On the donation because you do a great job of making your moves explicit, you know, and that is a. That is a huge, loving alliance move for you to explicitly say, here's what's motivating me for what I'm doing and what I'm about to do. That does make you feel safe to know that this really matters to my therapist.

A (30:24)

And I'm going to give a shout out to Chad Imhoff, great supervisor. He'll say that he's like, when my brain doesn't feel safe and you try and get me to do something, I'm not doing it until you help me understand why I should do it. Y', all, thank you so much. We appreciate you. Thank you for pushing your leading edge and helping your clients on their leading edge.

B (30:42)

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and on his website, ryanrenatraining.com you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website Doc hawklpc.com.