106. When Clients Get Disoriented Between Positive Change and Remnants of Old Patterns

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: When Clients Get Disoriented Between Positive Change and Remnants of Old Patterns
Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Nicola Hawkins
Release Date: February 6, 2025

This episode dives into a nuanced moment in the Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) process: when clients experience genuine positive change but continue to encounter remnants of their old negative patterns. The discussion centers on how therapists can help clients—and themselves—navigate the “in-between” space, where hope is real but uncertainty and old triggers still linger. The hosts share clinical insights, personal growth moments, and practical strategies for holding, validating, and working with this complexity in the therapy room.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Disorienting “In-Between” for Clients

• Definition of the Dilemma: Even after progress, clients can feel lost when old cycles momentarily return.
  • Clients report confusion over which version of their partner they'll encounter—“Sometimes I get this warm, empathic engagement and understanding... Then every now and then I still get the old defensive.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 04:33)
• Impact on Attachment System:
  • Change means unpredictability: “They want to do the primary strategy... but their body's still not sure, what am I gonna get?” (Dr. James Hawkins, 07:28)
  • The process creates a real nervous system dilemma—between hopefulness and hypervigilance for the old response.

2. Therapist’s Approach: Validate and Normalize

• Validation in the Moment:
  • When clients voice this confusion/discomfort, immediately acknowledge and thank them—“If they're showing you that right there in that moment, that means the trigger just happened.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 05:53)
  • Therapists should track when and how this “both/and” experience emerges in session and “be with” the client in that space.
• Normalize Mixed Experiences:
  • Many clients feel “crazy” or self-doubt—normalization is healing: “It’s not like I’m trying to behave in a maladaptive way... this is what your nervous system is doing.” (Nicola Hawkins, 18:15)
  • Allowing for both positive and negative feelings gives clients space to be fully human and reduces shame.

3. Using “Parts Work” to Help Clients Make Meaning

• Putting Experience into Parts:
  • “What they're showing me is, hey, I can see the part of you that things have changed... But there’s this other part where it's like, I don't know what to expect.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 11:42)
  • Therapists can help clients name and differentiate both the hopeful and fearful “parts” coexisting within them.
• Enactments with Uncertainty:
  • Use process enactments not just for strong emotions, but for the vulnerable uncertainty: “Have you had a space where you talk to your partner about this, where it’s like, I can see what’s different, but...I don’t know what’s coming for me?” (Dr. James Hawkins, 14:26)
  • This helps bring the “in-between” state into explicit, shared awareness.

4. The Therapist’s Own Growth Edge

• Self-of-the-Therapist Considerations:
  • Therapists may want to “speed up and action something” when feeling discomfort (Nicola Hawkins, 20:44).
  • The importance of “catching your automatic thoughts... watch the meaning you make. Calm your nervous system yourself, then go be with them in their process.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 22:09)
• Modeling Presence and Acceptance:
  • When therapists narrate or own their own confusion or tenseness, they model safety and acceptance, as when Nicola Hawkins describes pausing and sharing her internal carefulness with the client (16:28).

5. Honoring Clients’ Journeys & Wins

• Highlighting Progress, Not Perfection:
  • “Now the good ones are starting to rise to the top some more...But your body hasn’t forgotten the memories when it went south. And it still happens sometimes. So now you’re caught in this weird in-between.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 23:33)
• Acknowledging Complexity:
  • “Everything’s not always all bad or all good; it can be mixtures of both at the same time.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 24:14)
  • Honor clients' ability to notice differences, reflect, and hold hope—even if not fully confident.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• ”My brain is stuck. My nervous system is stuck.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 07:09)
• “What is it like being caught in this place between—you knew what it was like before...But now there’s this other part of you...You want that, but you never know with each interaction.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 12:16)
• “If they're showing you something that's a present-moment distress, make sure you go and be with them in that. There's not a penalty for this. They're not bad for bringing it up.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 16:41)
• ”Even when you carry hope with your clients...real life is gonna happen. How do you not fall too far below or shoot too far ahead? But yeah, connecting back with what’s present live in the room.” (Nicola Hawkins, 25:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – 03:10: Setting up the “in-between” & recurring cycles despite progress.
• 05:53 – 08:38: The importance of validation and being present with client struggle.
• 11:28 – 14:52: Using parts language and process enactments for the uncertainty.
• 16:15 – 18:53: Therapist’s modeling and personal reactions in these moments.
• 20:29 – 22:41: Self-of-the-therapist strategies: slowing down, reflecting, and being with.
• 23:14 – 24:14: Honoring client progress; normalization of complex feelings.
• 25:06 – 26:37: Final reflections on holding the process and therapist gratitude.

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Summary Takeaways

• The transition from negative cycles to positive change can feel unsettling for clients; therapists should validate and “be with” clients in this uncertainty.
• A parts lens helps both client and therapist map the complexity, allowing both hope and fear space to be seen and named.
• Therapists should attend to their own internal processes, slowing down and modeling acceptance rather than rushing to resolve discomfort.
• Celebrating incremental wins and holding the ambiguity of progress strengthens client resilience—and the therapist’s own growth edge.

Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, what do you do when you've done good work, your clients have done good work, but there's still a remnant? The negative cycle still pops in and the old pattern shows up. How do you help your clients make sense out of that space where there's positive change happening, but some of the negative cycle keeps popping up. That's what we're going to cover today.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Well, we have a treat today, and I won't say guest, because she's not technically a guest. She is a part of this podcast, the third voice of the podcast, none other than Nicola Hawkins.

[Nicola Hawkins]

That's hilarious.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I don't know. Just made that one up. But yeah. So, yeah, Ryan is out today. You know, just once again, always love being in the studio with him, but I'm glad to be here with you.

[Nicola Hawkins]

What's that good like being a student with the most.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Don't tell Ryan. But it's. You don't tell Ryan I'm your favorite.

[Nicola Hawkins]

That's funny.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And Ryan would endorse that. But so anyway, so as we were thinking about what to do, we're going to pause to kind of get your mind right for session series. We're going to come back to or getting your heart right. Getting your heart and mind right. We'll come back to that when Ryan gets in because we have a closeout episode we want to do. But do you have a topic? I can't tell you that right now.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Oh, no spoilers. Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But I will say that you pose a very good question that really took me back to a case like a year or two ago. So kind of introduce your question or the concept that we're going to talk about today.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Yeah, you know, it's the sense of, you know, reflecting on when you notice, you know, you're working with a couple or it could even be individual or even family really. And, you know, one of the first, you know, after you join having an alliance with your folks, you kind of shifting towards de escalation and then, you know, you're not quite in that same zone anymore. You know, I think continue to work, but it's like it's shifting to some new, different, you know, ability to just, like, notice what's coming up for themselves and Ability to, you know, maybe reach for partner or figure out how to navigate what's coming up, you know, and so there's some new behaviors, and it's like, all right. But then, you know, the cycle kind of comes in again and either feel like it's knocking them off the feed or what do we do here? This feels not exactly the same, like where. Where we might have found ourselves before, but this feels a little bit of a new zone.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Hmm.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And new in that it's kind of disorienting, if I'm understanding you.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yes.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It can feel disorienting because it's new. Because it's like, now, if I'm listening to you, they've had enough sessions and reps, particularly in enactments where it's like, wow, we're doing this thing. And they probably have some success with it at home sometimes.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But now it's like, we didn't believe we could do it before, but now it's like, we see examples. We can't. We can do it.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

We've definitely had some wins.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But it also every now and then still kicks our butt.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Where, like, if it's the reactivity, you know, I say old patterns, but like the reactivity or. Or the need to self protect or, you know.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Cubs in, like you said, feels like it's kicking our butt. Like, what do we do?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Thank you for that. And the way I heard it too, when it happened to me was the purse. It was the pursuing this one that kind of called it out. Was like, I can see things are different and I really, really appreciate it. But in. But now the hard part for me and the way the person said it is. But now, James, my brain is in a struggle because before I kind of had a good idea what to expect from my partner.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But now I get. I. I never know which one I'm gonna get now. Before it would get defensiveness and shut down.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right. Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Now sometimes I get this. This warm, empathic engagement and understanding. Yes. And that feels really good. Then it makes me want to do it more. But every now and then I still get the old defensive.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Something comes up.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Tells the body whether it's, you know, one, you know.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

It's like if something comes up and it's like, okay, this might not feel so safe to try it or that it feels like, girl, we wait. No. That's the look you normally give back in the days. Like, why? Why am I getting that look? I haven't seen that look in, you know, our Last five conversations.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And now their brain gets put into a dilemma of, you know, because now also, we've made it very clear about their old move and the impact. And so now I don't know if your client's going through, but this one, like, now they go into a place where they're trying to evaluate them themselves and catch the old move and not do it.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And also do something new.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So they're really in a dilemma. But then it's like, but I don't know what you're gonna do. What if I do the new thing and you do the old thing?

[Nicola Hawkins]

Yeah. Creates a mismatch for sure, doesn't it?

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

So I guess, like, I'm like, you know, as you navigate that and you see that coming up, you know, with your couples.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Nicola Hawkins]

As the therapist, what do you. How do you step into that with them?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Wow.

[Nicola Hawkins]

How did you do that?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Well, I probably now think. I wish. I don't think it caught me off guard, actually, if I'm honest, the first time it happened, Nicole, it caught me off guard. So I'll talk it through with you right now, like, what I did and what I would do different. Now, the first move is you have to go ahead and validate that they just brought up something in the present moment. If they're showing you that right there in that moment, that means the trigger just happened, or I say the trigger just happened, or something in that moment reminded them. Like, okay, I see what my therapist is asking me to do, but I'm not quite sure, you know? So I think, one, you have to go ahead and catch, like, and track it in the cycle. And what I mean is, even if they're starting off the session like, hey, so how are things now? And they tell you. Or if it happens in the middle of the session. For me, mine happened in the middle because it was right around the enactment time. And her body felt like, yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Oh, where the both end kind of came up, like what used to be the previous response and then what. The response that they're trying to practice and try on.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So I do think. I think the timing of when that. When that kind of protest comes up. But even. Can I catch that? So let me do that. Go to that one. One you have to recognize they just showed you something. And what they're showing me right now is my brain is stuck. My nervous system is stuck.

[Nicola Hawkins]

I like that part.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I know I knew what to anticipate before, even though there was a negative cycle, and maybe they weren't accurate, but at Least they knew what to anticipate and what they're showing you right now. It's. But now my brain has something else to anticipate. They could actually do it. They could actually be there for me. And we're putting their attachment system in, like, a little bit of a bind because they want to do the primary strategy of feeling the signal, sharing the signal, getting a response to the signal. That's the primary. But it's still like their body's still not sure, what am I gonna get?

[Nicola Hawkins]

What am I gonna get here?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So that's the one part is you have to see when it shows up and validated.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Thank them for coming forward. Thank them for sharing that. Because that's a hard thing to share because it's a little bit where it can hit our nervous system as a therapist because it's kind of like, hey, things are happening and it's good, but I'm scared. And it also could feel like when the person did it, they were really nervous because they looked at their partner. Because I am giving you a validation, but I'm also still sharing with you something that's hard for me.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right. Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So I think it's to validate the timing and when it's showing up is.

[Nicola Hawkins]

One helping them to hold it right. Even saying, you know, yeah, validate that part where it's like even noticing the old and the new, that. That there's a wrestling there. Is that kind of.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yep. Matter of fact, I'm a pause right there. We're going to take a break, because what I would say is, how do you just put that into parts? Because that would be one of my favorite interventions. So there is to validate it and then put it into parts.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But we'll talk about parts work after this commercial. Do you like the content that you're hearing on this podcast? Well, we invite you to join us on successand vulnerability.com along with George Fowler and other EFT therapists and supervisors, where you get to get more thorough insight into these concepts and. And actually get to see it done. Once again, join us on Success and vulnerability dot com. Hey, I want. Hit the wrong button, y'.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

All.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

We're going to keep that in there. But anyway, there's a lot of things going on. I just want to mention a few things that we have coming up. You've heard us say this already on the podcast, but we have the Leading Edge retreat coming up in the Minnesota EFT community, and that's going to be a great time. And so it's Kind of broken up on. On. On. This will be April 8th through the 11th. On the 8th is a time for supervisors, people who are in supervision or want to be supervisors, just to talk about how do we get the most out of supervision. And Ryan will lead that part. Then on the 9th and the 11th, Ryan and I will lead a special retreat. The focus of this retreat is for advanced EFT therapists to come in with the places where they get stuck. In this moment. It is strictly advanced. We're not going to go back to kind of redo externship core skills kind of stuff. This is blocks and reactivity, those kind of nuanced things. Also, I want to announce that we have the SV Focus Lab. The first time we're going to do a workshop type thing with the S. The whole SV team, and we're going to actually do it here in northwest Arkansas. And guess what, y', all, we're going to do it in a hybrid format. And the focus of this is there will be talks from me, George and Ryan on different parts and topics. Angela and Chad as well. And we'll also have a mixture of the team leading different breakout sessions to work on different skills and parts of EFT and just some of the areas that we're working on together as the SV team. So once again, the SV Focus Lab, September 11th through the 13th, it'll be in a hybrid format. I know, right? And the last one I want to talk about, at least for this moment, is we're going to have George and Lori Watson to come be with us. They are going to do a version of Sex and attachment that they've done a great job with, really around the world, but they're going to talk about how do we help track the sexual cycle and the interaction of the sexual cycle and the emotional cycle, and how do we help be more explicit with assessing this part of an adult romantic bond? So I would say it's been great for me. I would encourage anyone, please go to arkansas eft.com you can sign up for that. That's going to be February 27th through the 28th. Once again, y', all. I know. Thank y' all so much. Appreciate you. All right, so now back to your question.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

So.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So the first part was, I think you have to notice the timing and where it comes up because that can affect it. But I think first thing is validate. Validate the fact that one, what they just did is they did something that was vulnerable and they let. They invited you into their experience.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right? Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Two, it's. I Kind of want to check it in this. I could put it into parts, because what they're showing me is, hey, I can see the part of you that things have changed, things are getting better. And what's that part like? Right. And it's good. But then you're also showing me there's this other part that sometimes, despite that, there's. There's this other part that you can notice, and I appreciate that. But then there's this other part where it's like, I don't know what to expect. Sometimes things do still pop up. And what is that part like, when you don't know what to expect? What is that like for you?

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right. That's good.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And then now this is. Ryan would be happy if he was here. I would part that out and show it. But then you could also ask to. This is. And what is it like being caught in this place between. You knew what it was like before, and that was kind of predictable, even though that was painful and that could hurt. But now there's this other part of you. You have experienced something different with your partner, and you want that, but you never know. With each interaction, your brain and your body never knows which one you're gonna get.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

What's it like going into these moments, even right here, right now, and you don't know. What's that like for you?

[Nicola Hawkins]

Oh, that's so good. That feels even soothing.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

I mean, because, like, you're saying, you know, it. It can bring up that place of, this is confusing. I don't know. Is it really working? Or are we, you know, what we're. What we've been doing, you know, like, is it working? You know, why is it landing here? You know, you kind of want to go back and check, like, what the heck?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You know, wow. Can I stay with you? Doing a great job. Like, look at all these questions that come for you in this moment, like, in this spot. And I'm kind of like, now I'm going to use. Right now. It's. I'm using the trigger of. I don't know. Like, I literally, like, even when you picture that, your brain doesn't know. Now, I could check this. This is where I could go for a trigger, too. It's like, so we know what the positive is, and you can get a positive trigger. Like, what is it that tells you things are changing? Well, when I see this. When I see this. Okay, thank you. But then what is it that you, like, still, like, I don't know if this is coming. Like, what is your Body afraid that's coming for you. Like, if I take a risk and trust that things are still different, what's the thing like, even as we sit here now that your brain is like, but what if this comes? What are you worried about coming for you?

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So that's where you could get triggers too, right in the. On those two different parts still.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Like the part where they're wanting to be vulnerable versus the part where fear may come up like they're.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Or even I would say the trigger is like, what tells them things have been different.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Yes, yes, I see.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But then the key part I would go for is. And what is it like, even right now, like, you're like, I appreciate you even spoke up right now now, because what is that like in you when you look at that place where I don't know what I'm going to get and do you get a chance? And the thing we're getting to is. And have you had a space where you talk to your partner about this, where it's like, I can see what's different, but at the same time, I know we're both still working, but I don't know what's coming for me. Have you been able to talk about what that's like?

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right. Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And then for me, after I've distilled that now. Got it really clear, it's alive in the room. Put that into a process enactment. It's just I'm doing an act mean with a fear they're having in the process even of therapy and change in the relationship. Yeah, that's my thought and idea. What would you say?

[Nicola Hawkins]

No, I like how you're going with that. And, you know, it's just like, I think as a. On the therapist side of it, if that kind of comes up, you know, like, how do you. Especially from a new, newer, you know, trying on the model, working with the model, you can know, okay, temp and rave and, you know, risk and you can know all these different things. But it's just like, oh, if that comes up and it feels unexpected, like what? You know, how do I lean into it? And I think one of those things is like, for me, it's like, okay, you know, it can be a pause. You know, I've definitely experienced that this week working with, you know, different. A couple different couples or even I had an individual, you know, that I was navigating with. And it's like, okay, you know, I find that pause in my own self because it's con if it's confusing for them and that comes up in the room. It's like, you're like, what am I seeing and how do I help? You know, not necessarily go and do. Do something to you, but how do I even, like, pause and reflect and be with them in terms of, like, okay, what are. What are you experiencing? You know, I feel a little tenseness even come up in my own sense of self.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Nicola Hawkins]

And being able to say this, you know, this is not. This is a stuck place. Or this is not typically, you know. You know, what you're, you know, are hoping to experience or how, you know.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I. I had to hit the chime. I was wondering what you're doing, because I'm trying to mark something you just said, you know, I gave all the, like, you know, where did it show up? Get to trigger validation. But you just said something I think is important for. Be with them. Yeah, be with them. If they're showing you something that's a present moment, distress, make sure you go and be with them in that. Like, there's not a penalty for this. They're not bad for bringing it up. Be with. I just wanted to highlight that. That was a good line.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah, that. That.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Yeah. I think I definitely like how to flip because you can get so used to, oh, let me reflect this. Let me. You know. But I think a part of validating it for me in that moment became, like, that sense of, like, you know, when I'm pausing, say, this is hard. This does feel confusing, you know, and noticing that within my own own self, or I know one of the sessions I had, it was like, I even feel a sense of carefulness right now, you know, in how, you know, not sure what next do I even want to say? And just even that sense of freeing up my own.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And look what you just did. You. Proxy voiced it. That was good.

[Nicola Hawkins]

That's funny. Thank you. You know, it's just like, what do I want to say next? So even when I felt that in my own self, it's kind of like, oh, I can really empathize with what that might even feel like for them.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Did you show that to the client?

[Nicola Hawkins]

That's part of what I ended up kind of, you know, if you will, running it through me in a sense like this, it feels tense, you know, and, yeah, I think you can go into it. I find, you know, we're sitting in a room now. I'm like, oh, I had one right there on that sofa right there. You know, going into that place of, like, even, like, this is what happened. It's not like I'm trying to behave in a. In a maladaptive way. I'm trying to behave. You can see that with your. It's like, this is what your nervous system is doing.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And can I. Why. I appreciated your question. I'm sorry, I'm jumping in. What I appreciate your question is, is that's something we don't need to take for granted for our clients, that sometimes as a product of our good work, that there is a spot in the process. It's almost like. Almost like when you learn any new skill, like you've been practicing, you kind of have a few good reps at it, but there still is a part of you that's like, yeah, I kind of know, but I also know I don't fully have it down packed yet. So it's like I kind of have. I have some. I have some examples of success, but I'm not confident.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And that's a. That's a weird place for our clients. We need to notice that, like, that that can happen in stage one.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yes.

[Nicola Hawkins]

And that's the thing that I was like, okay, I need to make sure I keep holding that. Because, I mean, you know, like, when you carry hope with. With your clients, it's like, oh, you know, you're reviewing, like, where were we the last time? You know, or if this person is new or whatever, it's like, okay, where could the we potentially go to? And then it's like, oh, we're coming down the path and something feels. And normally we don't get stuck here or, you know, so, like, how do I come back into a place with. With you? And again, it is that.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

That being.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Being present with the process that is coming up.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And can I check that? Because I think what can. I love what you're talking. And we're not saying anything that's brand new, but we're being specific about a process in therapy. We need to talk about that in between. Where things are changing, but it's still not fully there yet.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yes.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And can I just say this, too? Here's the part I want to focus on for a quick moment.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

This is where we got to watch out for self of the therapist again.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Oh, my gosh. I literally jotted that down.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Okay, go ahead then. Go ahead. When you jotted down, what was going through your mind?

[Nicola Hawkins]

Well, I was thinking, okay.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Okay.

[Nicola Hawkins]

It could be like, oh, okay. You know, And I want. I felt a part of me wanted to speed up and action something.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Nicola Hawkins]

And so then I was like, okay, quiet that, you know, self judgment. And also, I think when self. Self judgment comes in, it's like, what is that judgment seeing? What is it? What is it noticing? And if there are actual things that are there, not ignore it. But I don't need to catastrophize. Oh, my gosh. It's a, you know, or I don't need to just kind of like, you know, spiral or get completely lost. I think that's where it's coming back to. Okay, this is what. If you know what's in front of me and, you know, I can be present with. With myself. Like, okay, I can. I can see them. I can be here with them. I can feel them, you know, in terms of. I can feel that if it's tenseness or if it's whatever, if it's, you know, confusion, if it's, you know, arms going, you know, you can like, okay.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

I can see these things.

[Nicola Hawkins]

I can be present with them. I can be present with myself and just kind of like go back to a spot if.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

If. If.

[Nicola Hawkins]

If need be, you know.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Well, one. I just love your reflection there. You just said everything I would have wanted to say. On Self of the therapist, catch your automatic thoughts that are running through you because you're going to go into trying to make meaning. Watch the meaning you make.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Calm your nervous system yourself, and then go be with them in their process. I love that. That's a great breakdown.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because if I'm honest, like, when my. My client said that, I felt a little bit of me get triggered and ramped up and my body wanted to do what your body did, speed up and fix something to reassure them, to make them feel confident, like, oh, don't lose hope in this process.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And the thing that I actually need to do is just slow down and be with.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Because if it did feel hopeless in that moment, it's not like, for the whole thing, but it's like if it felt something in that moment, it doesn't help me to bypass it either. It's like, you know, it is what it is, and I see it too. Oh, God. I'm not crazy. You know, I've had people say that, like, oh, so I'm not crazy. It's like, in your context, this and this and this makes sense. Like, absolutely. I can see why you would, you know, xyz.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I can totally get. When the negative cycle was run in the show, your brain and body kind of knew what to do, because y' all did that dance a million times in your relationship and you probably had some good ones, but the good ones always got overshadowed, but now the good ones are starting to rise to the top some more.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

This is what you hope for. This is what you worked hard for.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And so your body can see that. And I even appreciate you. Even in the midst of all the hard work y' all have done, you can still see the good. But now it's like your. But your body hasn't forgotten the memories of when it went south. And it still happens sometimes. So now you're caught in this weird in between that feels really strange to you.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So thank you for highlighting that for me. And I just want to stay in that space because that's the space we got to navigate. It just shows me this is where you can validate them too. It just shows me once again how good you've been doing.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Like, highlight of wins, right?

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Where has taken place.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Where they are even able to slow them own sense of self down and reflect and connect with even, like, what do I need here? You know, these kinds of things and.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

What your body just did in that moment is you can feel multiple things at one time, and that could be overwhelming. So great job on you catching that. Everything's not always all bad or all good. It can be mixtures of both at the same time. So good job on you. And what I'm trying to. And that is the truth.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Like, they can hold multiple experiences at one time. So good job, Moanyu. Thank you for that.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Giving the self and their other permission, that that can be a reality.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right. It doesn't have to be all good. It doesn't have to be, especially with a pursuer or withdrawal. But, like, hey, we need to keep honoring. Like, yes, they are getting better, but we have to honor, like, while we might be happy about the work we've done, I'm saying me, James. Right. I need to honor, like, this has been a long, painful process for them.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And just because I got to come in and see the good that's developing, I can't Forget about the 10 or 15 years of rough that they've had.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

That's so good. That's so good.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Well, yeah. I don't know if you have anything else, but now you're also. We're in the segment where I think we need to make sure we think our. Thank the therapist. And I want to thank you right now. I guess, even coming out of Nicole's great idea here, it's thank you for walking in those hard moments with People where you have been working to create something beautiful. And every now and then it feels like, I guess I'm picturing like a painting that you're painting this picture and it's beautiful, but then something happens where it feels like maybe the brush falls out of your hand and makes an errant stroke across the page. And we just have to be patient sometimes and go back to those moments and say, hey, it's okay. It's all right. So I just, just thank you for you as therapist, just, you know, handling the good and the rough parts and like, like holding multiple perspectives in the session.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Yeah.

[Nicola Hawkins]

I think what occurs to me is you're talking now and I look back over my week of work. It's like, you know, you're joining people in their process and where it's at, you know, where they find their pains and their joys and their hurts and things like that. And I guess it's solidify for me again, like, you know, yeah, absolutely have treatment plans and goals and all that stuff. But like, real life is gonna happen and like, how do you not fall too far below or shoot too far ahead? But yeah, connecting back with what's present live in the room.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Well, Nicola, thank you for being able to be in the studio today. Phenomenal question.

[Nicola Hawkins]

Thank you for having me. Come hang out for a little bit.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You all once again hope to have Ryan back. We're gonna get that episode in and we're looking forward to a new series coming up here soon. Thank you so much.

[Unidentified Therapist / Guest]

Take care.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional training and on his website ryanrening.com you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website doc hawklpc.com.