Episode Overview

Title: When Clients Get Disoriented Between Positive Change and Remnants of Old Patterns
Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Nicola Hawkins
Release Date: February 6, 2025

This episode dives into a nuanced moment in the Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) process: when clients experience genuine positive change but continue to encounter remnants of their old negative patterns. The discussion centers on how therapists can help clients—and themselves—navigate the “in-between” space, where hope is real but uncertainty and old triggers still linger. The hosts share clinical insights, personal growth moments, and practical strategies for holding, validating, and working with this complexity in the therapy room.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Disorienting “In-Between” for Clients

• Definition of the Dilemma: Even after progress, clients can feel lost when old cycles momentarily return.
  • Clients report confusion over which version of their partner they'll encounter—“Sometimes I get this warm, empathic engagement and understanding... Then every now and then I still get the old defensive.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 04:33)
• Impact on Attachment System:
  • Change means unpredictability: “They want to do the primary strategy... but their body's still not sure, what am I gonna get?” (Dr. James Hawkins, 07:28)
  • The process creates a real nervous system dilemma—between hopefulness and hypervigilance for the old response.

2. Therapist’s Approach: Validate and Normalize

• Validation in the Moment:
  • When clients voice this confusion/discomfort, immediately acknowledge and thank them—“If they're showing you that right there in that moment, that means the trigger just happened.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 05:53)
  • Therapists should track when and how this “both/and” experience emerges in session and “be with” the client in that space.
• Normalize Mixed Experiences:
  • Many clients feel “crazy” or self-doubt—normalization is healing: “It’s not like I’m trying to behave in a maladaptive way... this is what your nervous system is doing.” (Nicola Hawkins, 18:15)
  • Allowing for both positive and negative feelings gives clients space to be fully human and reduces shame.

3. Using “Parts Work” to Help Clients Make Meaning

• Putting Experience into Parts:
  • “What they're showing me is, hey, I can see the part of you that things have changed... But there’s this other part where it's like, I don't know what to expect.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 11:42)
  • Therapists can help clients name and differentiate both the hopeful and fearful “parts” coexisting within them.
• Enactments with Uncertainty:
  • Use process enactments not just for strong emotions, but for the vulnerable uncertainty: “Have you had a space where you talk to your partner about this, where it’s like, I can see what’s different, but...I don’t know what’s coming for me?” (Dr. James Hawkins, 14:26)
  • This helps bring the “in-between” state into explicit, shared awareness.

4. The Therapist’s Own Growth Edge

• Self-of-the-Therapist Considerations:
  • Therapists may want to “speed up and action something” when feeling discomfort (Nicola Hawkins, 20:44).
  • The importance of “catching your automatic thoughts... watch the meaning you make. Calm your nervous system yourself, then go be with them in their process.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 22:09)
• Modeling Presence and Acceptance:
  • When therapists narrate or own their own confusion or tenseness, they model safety and acceptance, as when Nicola Hawkins describes pausing and sharing her internal carefulness with the client (16:28).

5. Honoring Clients’ Journeys & Wins

• Highlighting Progress, Not Perfection:
  • “Now the good ones are starting to rise to the top some more...But your body hasn’t forgotten the memories when it went south. And it still happens sometimes. So now you’re caught in this weird in-between.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 23:33)
• Acknowledging Complexity:
  • “Everything’s not always all bad or all good; it can be mixtures of both at the same time.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 24:14)
  • Honor clients' ability to notice differences, reflect, and hold hope—even if not fully confident.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• ”My brain is stuck. My nervous system is stuck.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 07:09)
• “What is it like being caught in this place between—you knew what it was like before...But now there’s this other part of you...You want that, but you never know with each interaction.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 12:16)
• “If they're showing you something that's a present-moment distress, make sure you go and be with them in that. There's not a penalty for this. They're not bad for bringing it up.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 16:41)
• ”Even when you carry hope with your clients...real life is gonna happen. How do you not fall too far below or shoot too far ahead? But yeah, connecting back with what’s present live in the room.” (Nicola Hawkins, 25:55)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – 03:10: Setting up the “in-between” & recurring cycles despite progress.
• 05:53 – 08:38: The importance of validation and being present with client struggle.
• 11:28 – 14:52: Using parts language and process enactments for the uncertainty.
• 16:15 – 18:53: Therapist’s modeling and personal reactions in these moments.
• 20:29 – 22:41: Self-of-the-therapist strategies: slowing down, reflecting, and being with.
• 23:14 – 24:14: Honoring client progress; normalization of complex feelings.
• 25:06 – 26:37: Final reflections on holding the process and therapist gratitude.

Summary Takeaways

• The transition from negative cycles to positive change can feel unsettling for clients; therapists should validate and “be with” clients in this uncertainty.
• A parts lens helps both client and therapist map the complexity, allowing both hope and fear space to be seen and named.
• Therapists should attend to their own internal processes, slowing down and modeling acceptance rather than rushing to resolve discomfort.
• Celebrating incremental wins and holding the ambiguity of progress strengthens client resilience—and the therapist’s own growth edge.