← The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
124. Stage 2 Series: 16 Stones-How Deep is Deep Enough-Hovering in Stage 2, Step 5
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- [00:01]
Dr. James Hawkins
Hey, once again, I want to let you know about a resource. There are many EFT clinicians doing intensives around the country in the world, and I believe in every single one of them. Usually when people are doing intensives, they're doing a good job, but there's a great option in Northwest Arkansas, mostly in person intensives. And these people are doing EFT co therapy, oftentimes in male, female teams. And they do an amazing job. I have personally seen. They're quality, they're professionalism, they're expensive, but they're really good. So if you want to, if you're interested in doing one in your own relationship or with your clients, they do 12 to 20 hours eft co therapy intensivesthejoshuacenter.com send them an email.
- [00:46]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
All right, so, Ryan, I want to talk about it again. At the time of this recording, we're only one week out from the first Success and Vulnerability EFT Focus Lab, where we're going to focus on some particular aspects of the EFT model. And this year is about pivoting once again. That will be here in northwest Arkansas, September 11th through the 13th, 2025, the SV EFT Focus Lab, focusing on recognizing and knowing how and when to pivot.
- [01:16]
Podcast Host/Announcer
Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.
- [01:44]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
All right, y', all, once again, we're back in our stage two series with the hope and idea here, just to help get a little bit more clearer on some of the aspects of stage two, just to help push your work a little bit further, you know. And so what we're going to focus on today is talking about stage two depth. How do we know when deep is deep enough? And how do you hover in stage two, particularly around step five? Because this, even though this one is intrapsychic, it does require. It's. Once again, we've kind of, we've quoted Catherine on here. You do have to have deep limbic experience in order to have deep limbic revision. And so that's what we're going to focus on. Like, what does that word, even deep mean? How do you know when it's deep enough? And Ryan and I just will share some of our insights on that and why it's important. All right, Ryan, so you ready for this? I'm ready you ready? So I'm thinking about, like, you know, as you begin thinking about this stage two, how deep is deep enough? How do you. How do you answer that?
- [02:44]
Dr. James Hawkins
Well, you know, earlier today you said, do you think we're ready to go on to step six?
- [02:48]
Guest or Co-therapist
Yeah.
- [02:49]
Dr. James Hawkins
And I'm like, no, let's go back to step five, because it's a lot to talk about. But I think that's a metaphor, too, is you keep going deep over and over and over, even if you think you got enough.
- [02:59]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's right.
- [03:00]
Dr. James Hawkins
Because repetition is key, especially with that withdraw. Because we're going against everything that life has taught them, that the cycle has taught them to survive. And so just a couple dips in the water, don't get it done. So this repetition, this repetition, this repetition, the literature says on average, withdrawal re engagement is three to nine sessions. Of course, that can vary wildly. George doesn't like it when I say that, but, you know, it's not a bad idea to have some guidance of what sue found all those years ago. That's pretty accurate for me.
- [03:33]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
And here's what I like, is letting you know, hey, we got to take a couple trips around this a couple times.
- [03:38]
Dr. James Hawkins
And that's what I want to say is not only are we priming the emotional experience of deepening in session, but we're priming it from session to session. So in session, the fourth time, I go deep with the withdrawer and hang out for 27 minutes in the dark place that creates a momentum that in the seventh session with them, it's like, oh, yeah, here's one other thing that happened. You know, when I was 7, a neighbor kid did this inappropriate thing, and I've carried around with me for all these years this secret.
- [04:19]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [04:19]
Dr. James Hawkins
It's like, that's what we're looking for.
- [04:22]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [04:22]
Dr. James Hawkins
So. And that can't happen in a time or two. You know, it really kind of mirrors how long you've known someone in your social circles, sort of mirrors how many stage two deepening sessions that have to prime and build and prime and build and prime and build. And we're installing success and vulnerability every time, which then allows more safety to dig even deeper. And there is a paradox here that when people first start to do stage two, they're very disoriented about, because the vast majority of the time in stage two, the relationship is doing well.
- [05:03]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yeah.
- [05:03]
Dr. James Hawkins
And so we're having to re enter pain through the positive.
- [05:09]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [05:09]
Dr. James Hawkins
And so just being ready for that, because your nervous system, it feels odd. Like I would have Never done that had I not been trained in eft. And I did trauma stuff, but I was trained pretty significantly as a pattern interrupter. Like if something's going well, leave it alone. Like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
- [05:27]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Sounds like my life.
- [05:28]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah, we're having a good week. Don't, let's don't talk about it. But that's avoidant at some level. And, and that, that applies to some things in life, though. That's not stupid. Yeah, just not so much to a, you know, a 50 year relationship that's trying to secure the bond that's lost all its safety.
- [05:44]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yeah. And the key part you said is there really is something there, but you're choosing to avoid it and not talking about it in hopes to, you know, hold off the distress.
- [05:53]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a metaphor that comes to mind for me is like, you know, of course I'm gonna, I start my sessions the same way every time, pretty much with a little micro summary out of Tango five and, and then, you know, checking in right here right now, today, you know, But a lot of times stage two couples are like, we're doing great. Yeah, we're doing good. We're in a good place. We're repairing at home. You know, when you're in stage two, it often feels like you're done. So that's one of the markers to me that, that I'm in stage two. And so it's like, well, just whatever you want to do, therapist, you know, and for me, I'm going to do a safety platform and I'm going to reenter. And to me, that feels like. You ever seen those staircases that are metal and windy? That's what it feels like to me. After the safety platform, it's like I'm backing down a very narrow, uncomfortable, shaky metal staircase down into someone's basement where it's cold and dark and spiderwebs and it's somewhere they don't really want to go. It's somewhere that I don't necessarily want to go. But our theory of change informs us where we need to go. And so I need to visit down there 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12 times. And I think about there being like 16 stones down there, Right. And a stone represents a painful memory, a painful event, something that really, really where their safety or even their life was threatened. Whether that's literally physical life or their emotional life, their relational life. And definitely I'm listening for, I'm looking for, or sometimes I'm overtly asking about in this Painful stone that we're now turning over. We're just walking around, turning over. Another stone, another stone, another stone. And I'm looking for deepest fear. I'm looking for negative view of self.
- [07:51]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yep.
- [07:52]
Dr. James Hawkins
And I'm looking for what keeps them from reaching for comfort.
- [07:57]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [07:57]
Dr. James Hawkins
So that's what I'm prioritizing. This is a long experiential journey that's repetitive. And when I teach that, some people like, whoa, that's not what I'm doing. I'm like, well, that's what we're supposed to be doing.
- [08:09]
Guest or Co-therapist
That's right.
- [08:10]
Dr. James Hawkins
And we're going for that intro psychic experience. So I don't really care what's under the stone. Again, it can be a. I just thought of one from last week. An inappropriate contact with a neighbor when they were six. It could be a sexual assault. It could be.
- [08:26]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Can I throw one in?
- [08:27]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah.
- [08:27]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
I've seen what's happened is sometimes forms of marginalization or oppression are down.
- [08:32]
Dr. James Hawkins
There you go. There you go.
- [08:33]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
I had one client that talked about her experience being, you know, interracial person living in. In the south after coming from the Northeast. But then she brought up something she never brought up in therapy before. And she brought up her, like, because she's so functioning with it, but even her hearing impairment and how people. But all of that was. It was just every time we would flip over a stone, there was more content, experiential content underneath the stone.
- [08:57]
Dr. James Hawkins
And we need it. That's what I'm trying to say. If someone has those experiences, we need it. We don't want to leave the stone unturned because when the stones are left unturned, they show up in the. In the form of a relapse. The neck. The cycle uses what was left down there to get them. And that's why EFT has such a low relapse rate, is we do such deep exploration in step five that, that we build those experiential bridges into those painful places. So it's not if, but when life hurts them at that level. There's already bridges built in and out of that. So if my racial trauma is triggered, I already have six enactments with my partner. So now all I've got to do is go back to that same muscle memory which I'm calling an experiential bridge. And I can talk to you about this. Hey, I felt discriminated against today at work and here's how it affected me. Can you come be with me? And boom. Now we've co regulated this not to Say that it's not painful, but it's tolerable.
- [09:59]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's right.
- [09:59]
Dr. James Hawkins
Because not. No one's left alone. Otherwise, that can show up. In my pursuit of you or my criticism of you, next thing you know, the very time I need comfort, I'm pushing my partner away, which is the crazy. Making intolerable suffering we're trying to get away from. So going back to those stones, though. Yeah, like, so we're using sexual assault. You use ethnic ethics, racial trauma.
- [10:23]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yeah, that's it.
- [10:24]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marginalization experiences. LGBTQ plus. If my walking around self or my walking around relationship is under some form of assault or rejection from society, that can become a stone that I have to then protect. I have to disown that part of me to survive.
- [10:46]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [10:47]
Dr. James Hawkins
Which is a human thing to do. But now, therapist, your job's to come find that part of me. It can also be attachment injuries. That affair that happened seven years ago that we. We say is not that big a deal, that that means sometimes the stone is protecting it, the wound, but the wound is still there. It can be, you know, some kind of hard relationship with a parent. My. My father abandoned me. My stepfather was horrible. My mom was uber controlling. Like, if that's the case, we want to know now. And this is. This is why, you know, you don't want to throw your notes away from individual attachment history. Sometimes it takes into stage two before we can go back and really, really dig into those painful events.
- [11:33]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
100%, Ryan. Thank you for that. And that reminds me, this just brought back these warm memories of Alison, Lee and Gail when they were the only ones doing, like, certification, and they put out a video just to help make it clear. And one of the things, I think. I think it was Gail that might maybe said it, and Gail was like, we just need to see that you can walk around in the basement of people's pain. You know, it's one thing to talk about people's sadness, but can you walk around in their. In their. Not even just their pain, by the way. And this is shout out to Lisa Palmer Olsen. I remember before I was doing a live, and I. And, you know, I figured it was going to be a stage two live. And I said, hey, you got any pointers for me, Lisa? And all she kept saying was, follow the fear, find the fear, follow the fear, stay with the fear. Have them, share the fear. Have them and help them get comfort in the presence of their fear. And people can, you know, you can wanna say that, but, like, can you go towards the Place that their body is probably not wanting to go. And can you make it safe enough? Which. Listen to the last episode, Right. Ryan did a great job talking about the safety platform. He uses each session to help build out that process. But I'm gonna go back to something.
- [12:44]
Dr. James Hawkins
You said, and we're gonna go to fear in stage one. We're gonna enact fear in stage one. But this is something very different, 100%. It's different from touching it, enacting it, to a full exploration, walking around in the basement, finding these stones, and making sure that you're not left alone in your most vulnerable places.
- [13:03]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yep. And what's the worst thing that could happen to you here? What happens if people see you here? Like, what will this mean for you if people see what. What you see when you come into this basement of your pain? Yeah. Those are very scary, hard questions there. But you said something, too. I liked what you said. Maybe. I don't know if this takes us off stage two depth, but you said enter off the. Enter off the positive.
- [13:26]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah.
- [13:27]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
And I know one frame that you use for that, but I want you to kind of share. Like, what do you mean by enter off the. It reminds me of your el tempo.
- [13:33]
Dr. James Hawkins
No. With longings. Yeah, yeah, that's good. But I just simply mean it's awkward, you know, I think there's a lot of awkward turns in stage two. You know, it doesn't feel awkward when I'm teaching it, but when I'm in my office, I'm like, man, these folks are doing great. You know, and so as we'll talk about in a couple of episodes from now, to go get the deepest attachment need, you have to start with positivity.
- [13:56]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [13:57]
Dr. James Hawkins
That's where they are.
- [13:58]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yeah.
- [13:59]
Dr. James Hawkins
So then to go from yard, doing great. At some point, it's like, how do I find a, you know, a reasonable. Yes. But transition to get back down into. But you still remember this place.
- [14:10]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [14:10]
Dr. James Hawkins
So even though things are better now, there's that part of you who knows what it's like.
- [14:15]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's right.
- [14:15]
Dr. James Hawkins
And now let's go into that place. So it's that. It's that awkward transition over and over and over. So we're talking about, you know, 13, 17 sessions potentially, of the couple, the relationship being in a fairly mostly secure place, which is going to be show up as positivity, and we go into the pain anyway. Like, just want to prepare listeners for. That's awkward. In case they haven't done a lot of stage two.
- [14:41]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
All right, well, let's Take a quick break and we'll be right back then. Do you like the content that you're hearing on this podcast? Well, we invite you to join us on successandvulnerability.com along with George Fowler and other EFT therapists and supervisors, where you get to get more thorough insight into these concepts and actually get to see it done. Once again, join us on Success and vulnerability dot com. So I want to. So let's talk about maybe some other ways. Of course, we could keep doing our, you know, the affect assembly ways of getting that. But, you know, even that is a. I know I'm dating this a little bit, but, you know, we just did the SV live with Leanne Campbell, and she does. And I know you do this as well. I've seen George do it now. I've adopted it. But this almost setting an actual scene is also helps me understand the depth of it.
- [15:39]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yep.
- [15:40]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
So, you know, you know, for me, it would be like I might go back to. So, hey, especially if I'm going to say we're just starting stage two with the withdrawal. One of my common ways is so I know y' all are doing so much better, and I really appreciate that. Y' all are really. You can catch the cycle now. You recognize your moves and you can have understanding. But can you take me back? Because what we haven't really explored fully yet is what is it like for you that the move that you are making to try and keep things down, to not get in a bigger fight, and then you need to go away for space? What I've not really, like, can you take me back to that place where you go away for space? And can you take me to, like, what's happening for you in that place that even though you're going away to get space, what starts happening inside of you and what are the messages that get queued up and how do that. What does this now start to say about you? Now, I know Ryan talked about this last week with the dams we believe. Right. And then what I'm going to do, though, is I'm going to really stay there. It's like, and what does this fundamentally mean about you as a person? What does this fundamentally mean about this relationship? And can you help me understand that and see that? And I want to go into that scene. Where do you go away to? You know, is it to the. To the garage? Is it where. Where is that at? And what's happening when you're in that garage? If I could see your face, what would I see? What do you start to see in your life, like even if you played this back in a movie, what does. Take me to a scene. I've seen George do that one. Can you take me back to a passing where this message really became something true for you or something that you really began to believe? Can you take me to that place? And the classic one of that is of course one of his stage two pursuer softenings where he ends up in the car with a little girl whose dad calls her the demon child. Anyway, I don't know. That's just some of my scene. What does that look like for you?
- [17:27]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah, well, if you, if you have that emotional pitch that's strong, you could always go when was the very first time you ever felt this way? Would be. Would be a sort of intrapsychic drop into that place. Scenes are very powerful and they come with opportunity and danger.
- [17:46]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [17:46]
Dr. James Hawkins
I think we've said that on here before, but it's worth saying again. You know, scenes are so powerful because we're trying to get away from that storying that. That looks like more like a summary. Yeah, the disembodied story. Someone's talking about their childhood but they're saying it in a, in a fast paced summary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My stepdad was brutal and I was this and I didn't have it. Don't have self esteem. And it's like that's not, that's not even stage one. Good work yet, but definitely not stage two. So hopefully we're making that distinct. But scenes are really powerful because they carry so much emotion.
- [18:19]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's true.
- [18:19]
Dr. James Hawkins
And they're very, very evoking.
- [18:21]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yeah.
- [18:22]
Dr. James Hawkins
So I will give you an example. But you know, the danger of them is, is you don't want to go to a scene and stay there. Because I've seen people try to do eft and stay in the scene and now there's emotion there, but they're really talking to someone else. So we want to use that scene and then bring it alive in the moment.
- [18:44]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [18:45]
Dr. James Hawkins
That's what's really key with scenes. But the opportunity is huge because they're so evoking and it's hard not to have emotion for that. I mean, some people call it your inner child, the younger self. I just like to think about that version of you when your heart was broken.
- [19:07]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [19:08]
Dr. James Hawkins
If I can get you to. If I can get you. If I can go with you actually into that place and I can get you to come with me and I can get that really, really online and then Bring that back in the office. That's some of the very best eft work there is. It's what. I think it's what Leanne Campbell's famous for. I think through Alive, I was doing. It was 2016 in Dallas. I believe it was 15. Anyway, it was this. This person that had struggled with a lot of addiction. He was on session 39, had never had an emotion, had never done an enactment, right. So it was a tough case. And. And I was doing Alive and. And we made progress. This is the person who walked out.
- [19:49]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's the part.
- [19:50]
Dr. James Hawkins
That's the one. That's the one. And. But anyway, he actually used. He actually gave me a scene, which is your ideal scene. And he was talking about his experience and how he feels in relationship with people, both with his partner, who was to his right, and really his whole life. And he used an image. He said, when we were kids, we would play hide and go seek, all right? And then I would get a great hiding spot, and it would be in a closet, and it would be so good, no one would come find me. And a big part of me that felt good because I didn't lose then another part of me started to go, where is everybody? So he started to lean into his loneliness and. And all the meaning that has been created with his model of self. And then. And then he threw me some. Some pretty tough blocks. And I didn't do a great job with it, honestly. I was learning, for sure. And so Leanne was watching this with me, and I said, leanne, how would you have handled this? And Leanne has this big smile, but she's actually probably one of the most aggressive therapists in the world, and she gets away with it, which is really unfair. She says, I would have said, okay, thank you. So I'm going to join you right now in that closet, you see? So she's going to enter the scene and bring that alive. So that would be a poignant way. Your ideal scene is the one that your client gives you. But, you know, I think about the last withdrawal reengagement case I did. This is a while back now. I think I've mentioned this here before. But this person, when life was at its hardest, he would kind of hide out in a loft in his house, right? And he would put. Just like, I'm looking at James here with big headphones on. That's what he would do. And he would turn on certain music. And because life was completely out of control, abusive family, stuff with siblings, just plates crashing, it was just awful. And the loft was actually a place of comfort for him. But then we get into, what were you comforting? And if you didn't have that loft, how would life have been?
- [22:09]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right?
- [22:09]
Dr. James Hawkins
And even as you remember the words of that song, what comes up? So entering that scene over and over and over, and even in like session 8 of withdrawal re engagement with this person, things were pretty static, pretty good, stable. And I would just say, so if it's okay with you, I want to go back to that loft. Can you close your eyes? You know, are you on the floor? So you're looking, you're looking for somatic cues. And what does it smell like? Is it hot or is it cold? And as you open your eyes, what do you see? A computer screen, a stereo and anything else. And the room was small, which felt good, right? Because I had three walls really close to me and nothing can get me. Okay, okay. So this is a scary place, right? So we're dropping into that spot and just exploring everything you thought about, everything you felt. What comes to mind? What do you remember?
- [23:06]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [23:06]
Dr. James Hawkins
And so just enactments and live emotion are everywhere. And I'm just privileging and prioritizing when it was at its worst. What thoughts come to mind about who you are or what's your worst fear that might be true about you, Right? So inadequate, irrelevant, not worth fighting for.
- [23:29]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right?
- [23:29]
Dr. James Hawkins
So these really sort of deep core shame, which is different than that reactive stage one shame. And we're just converting them into enactments and finishing missions.
- [23:38]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right?
- [23:39]
Dr. James Hawkins
And then the fear of reaching, you know, when you're in this loft, experience in life, even now, and life is out of control and your body is full of the messages that you don't matter, nobody's coming because you're not worth it. If your partner could see that version of you, do you sense that they would want you or what might they do? You know, they wouldn't want me.
- [24:04]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [24:05]
Dr. James Hawkins
So now right back into enactments. So that's, that's really the way I like to think about stage step five.
- [24:10]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right there.
- [24:11]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
And one another way, just if it helps the view, I want to come back to that too. I want to go back to this for a moment. You said something earlier, and I want to. I want to make sure our viewers get to hear this clearly. Let's talk about that scene conversion about when you stay too long at a scene. Now I'll just give mine like. So I even like the classic one. And this might not be the exact scene, but like a lot of my. There was a while like, for maybe three lives in a row, everyone described a pit that they get stuck in, and every attempt they make to get out, it's like either dirt keeps slipping or they keep getting shoved back in.
- [24:44]
Dr. James Hawkins
No definition of trauma. Right there.
- [24:46]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
There we go.
- [24:47]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah.
- [24:47]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
And what I would try to do. So this is vulnerable because I. I want. I want some consultation from a peer here. I would do things. So that's that scene. But what breaks my heart is that's what's playing out for you in real life. That even right now, it's like a part of your body is like, I'm not sure if I turn and share this, is the dirt just going to slip out from under me and I end up back in the same place and more humiliated? Is that feeling like it's a true experience for you right now? Like, I can kind of see your body fighting this for a moment. So even right here, right now, could we invite your partner to see you right here, right now, as you feel that, like, this isn't going to work. This is going to be embarrassing. This is going to be humiliating. If you see this version of me, is that. Would that be a conversion for you Love it. Okay.
- [25:30]
Dr. James Hawkins
Because it's still happening. That's. That's my phrase. That I'm listening to you. It's still happening.
- [25:34]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Exactly.
- [25:35]
Dr. James Hawkins
It doesn't just happen to you. Then it's still happening to. This is what the cycle does to you. This is what life does to you.
- [25:41]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [25:41]
Dr. James Hawkins
So just lean into that person's experience. The more you can get it alive, the deeper you go, the more stones you're turning.
- [25:46]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's right.
- [25:47]
Dr. James Hawkins
Right. And I think about 16 stones.
- [25:50]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [25:50]
Dr. James Hawkins
And that's. I'm just making that number up roughly because we got, you know, three to 10 sessions. If we can find two new stones a session, man, the chances of. Of this relationship relapsing go so far down.
- [26:03]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
Yeah.
- [26:03]
Dr. James Hawkins
So, yeah, I love the conversion that it's continuing to happen. This is what the cycle does to you. I even love your. Your process that I'm learning from you from last time. Like stage two, deadly attachment messages create stage one raw spots.
- [26:20]
Guest or Co-therapist
Oh, right.
- [26:21]
Dr. James Hawkins
Oh, like I'm. I'm vulnerable to that.
- [26:24]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's good.
- [26:25]
Dr. James Hawkins
Yeah. So I'm a tall person, James. So if you're. If. If you're my partner and you start saying, you know, you're. You're kind of a short person, that doesn't bother me. I start to think you're psychotic. Right. Because I. I have a mirror. I'm Tall. Okay. But in other areas, maybe I'm concerned that maybe I'm not smart enough. And so now in stage two, this stone, which has never been unturned, which means I've always been left alone in this place where I question my intelligence.
- [26:56]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's it.
- [26:57]
Dr. James Hawkins
Now, I'm very, very sensitive to the messages I get from your protection moves in stage one around my intelligence.
- [27:05]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's good.
- [27:06]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right?
- [27:07]
Dr. James Hawkins
And so those two have this relationship, which is why you don't want to miss them. In stage one, the partner needs to know, hey, my partner has a raw spot in this area. I need to find a way when I get frustrated not to say things that might come across like, I think they're not very smart.
- [27:23]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's good.
- [27:24]
Dr. James Hawkins
And stage two, though, I need the therapist to come find that stone.
- [27:27]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
That's right.
- [27:28]
Dr. James Hawkins
And to come say, this is that place. You know, this happened to you. Your teacher said this, Your father said this. You tried your hardest. You got a bad grade on that test.
- [27:39]
Guest or Co-therapist
Right.
- [27:39]
Dr. James Hawkins
So just entering and entering and overturning that stone and then getting your partner to come in there and just to speak love into that place, to secure it.
- [27:49]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
And let me tell you about an example when I didn't convert it. Well, shout out to Chad, who was giving me consultation, and I had went to a scene with pursuer to her younger version of self with her mom. And I tried to do something like where I had that little girl share and Chad rightfully said, good work, James. But you didn't create a space for the partner to be with her in the present moment. Yeah. So I think that was good.
- [28:17]
Dr. James Hawkins
I love it. So, no, it's just really key because if you get stuck in the scene. I didn't answer your question five minutes ago. Sorry. If you get stuck in the scene, what can happen is you can just get stuck in seeing content. So seeing content is better than other content, but it's still content. I don't want to just interview about, you know, what all happened for you as a kid and how you felt about your stepdad endlessly. Right. Then it becomes like individual trauma and it never gets converted back to co regulation. So we need to bring it back alive at some point today.
- [28:49]
Dr. Ryan Reyna
And as we get ready to close, I just want to share one more from George. It wasn't a scene work, but what I liked is George had this rhythm of using reflections, validations, and these evocative questions while he kept going over the meaning and experience. So what he would do was it would kind of like. And so what does that mean in this place about you or in this relationship? And then when they would give an answer, George would be like, and that makes so much sense. I get the good reasons why your body has this experience. I get the good reasons why you do what you do. And he would even reflect back. And I even see right now as you're answering me and you're telling me about this, how hard your body is really working in this place where you've always been left alone. Then he would ask his next evocative question right off of that meaning, and even, what is that like, even right now, as you kind of get the message or the message, the tape start playing that says, you're just not good enough, what is that even like? Then he would get the experience question again. And even right behind that, he would do his reflections and validations and evocative question again and lead. Right, and what does that mean? Like, if that. If that this hopelessness could speak, what does it say about you? Well, I'm hopeless. I'm the reason why this relationship's going to come to an end. I'm going to lose everything. And he would just keep using that rev in me. That's what I kind of called it when I. If you've ever trained with me, and I do stage two, I do a lot of revving between the M and the E in the affect assembly. So just another tool and example. Because once again, I just want to reiterate, we're so thankful for you listening to Ryan and I on this podcast and George and the other guests when they pop on. But I just want to make sure that you all know that you have options. That's one of the beauty, the beautiful things that I love about what sue did with this model. She didn't create a model and say, you have to say it this way every time. You have to do it this way all the time. But she did give us a map to follow, and she gave us space for creativity as we follow a map that's been proven to the APA gold standard. So you all, thank you so much. We just hope. We just want to keep encouraging you as you go walk down into the basements with people and you turn over these stones. Because I want to make sure, I reiterate again, it's not that you turn over every stone, but you help them gain bravery and strength as they turn over stones. That the more that they turn over stones, they become stronger to face their fears, to look into the unknown places that maybe have these scary messages and what happens is as they build that confidence with you, as they build that strength with not even just you, as they build that confidence and strength with themselves that they can go to these places and it doesn't destroy them, as they build confidence and strength with their partner that my partner can and is willing to be there with me and to bring to bring love to a place that has felt, maybe condemning, ostracizing, oppressive, scary, overwhelming, that as they build that, they then are able to take that strength from the stones that they've worked with to apply to other stones in their life as they come alive. So we thank you so much to allow us to help share our insights here to help you get better at Push at being on the leading edge and helping your clients succeed on their leading edges in life. We appreciate you.
- [32:13]
Podcast Host/Announcer
Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional Training and on his website ryanrainatraining. Com. You can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website dochawklpc.com.