Podcast Summary

Overview

Episode: 124. Stage 2 Series: 16 Stones - How Deep is Deep Enough - Hovering in Stage 2, Step 5
Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna
Date: September 3, 2025

This episode dives deep into the nuances of working in Stage 2, Step 5 of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). The hosts discuss the concept of "how deep is deep enough" during this phase of therapy, focusing on the repeated, thorough exploration of clients' most vulnerable places (the "16 stones" metaphor). They emphasize best practices for therapists in facilitating deep, limbic revision and the importance of safety, repetition, and scene work in this critical stage.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Knowing "How Deep is Deep Enough"

• Stage 2, Step 5: This is an intrapsychic process requiring deep emotional engagement, or as Dr. Reyna quotes, "you have to have deep limbic experience in order to have deep limbic revision." (01:43)
• Repetition is Essential: One session or a superficial exploration isn't enough; therapists must "go deep over and over and over, even if you think you got enough." (Dr. Hawkins, 02:48)
• Average Duration: Withdrawal re-engagement averages three to nine sessions, but can vary significantly. (Dr. Hawkins, 03:00)

2. The "16 Stones" Metaphor

• Exploring the Basement: Dr. Hawkins uses a vivid metaphor of descending a spiral staircase into a client's "basement," a dark, uncomfortable place full of unturned "stones" representing painful memories and traumas. (05:53)
  • "We're just walking around, turning over. Another stone, another stone, another stone. And I'm looking for deepest fear. I'm looking for negative view of self. And I'm looking for what keeps them from reaching for comfort." (Dr. Hawkins, 07:57)
• The Mission: The goal is consistent, repeated visits to these vulnerable places, building "experiential bridges," so clients have safe pathways back to connection when these traumas are triggered later. (09:58)

3. Entering Pain Through Positivity

• The Paradox: Often, by Stage 2, couples appear to be doing well. The therapist must intentionally "re-enter pain through the positive," even when things are stable, to promote true healing. (Dr. Hawkins, 05:08)
  • "You have to start with positivity... then to go from 'y'all are doing great'... to 'but you still remember this place'." (Dr. Hawkins, 13:56)

4. Using Scenes for Depth

• Setting the Scene: Rather than just talking about emotions, the hosts advocate for recreating and deeply entering emotional "scenes" from the client’s past to evoke present feelings and meaning. (Dr. Reyna, 15:39)
  • "Scenes are so powerful because we're trying to get away from that storying that... looks like more like a summary..." (Dr. Hawkins, 17:45)
• Conversion to the Present: Don't stay in the past—bring it alive in the session, helping the client experience and interact with it now, ideally in the partner's presence. (Dr. Hawkins, 18:44)

5. Avoiding Pitfalls: Not Getting Stuck in the Scene

• Potential Danger: Therapists can get trapped in the "scene," never converting the past experience to a live, co-regulated moment in the present. The aim is transformation, not endless content exploration. (Dr. Hawkins, 28:16)
• The Importance of Conversion: "If you get stuck in the scene... you can just get stuck in seeing content... I don't want to just interview about what all happened for you as a kid and how you felt about your stepdad endlessly. Then it becomes like individual trauma and it never gets converted back to co-regulation." (Dr. Hawkins, 28:16)

6. Building Safety and Bravery

• The Role of the Therapist: Therapists must reliably create a "safety platform," preparing to re-enter painful territory repeatedly as clients gain trust and bravery. (Dr. Hawkins, 05:53)
• Gradual Empowerment: As clients turn over more stones, they become stronger and more confident in facing previously overwhelming emotions, both alone and with their partner. (Dr. Hawkins, 32:05)

7. The Relationship Between Stage 1 and Stage 2

• Attachment Messages and Raw Spots: The episode highlights how "stage two deadly attachment messages create stage one raw spots," illustrating the cyclical, multi-layered nature of client wounds. (Dr. Hawkins, 26:19)

8. Therapist Flexibility and the EFT Map

• Personal Style Allows Flourishing: While EFT provides a "gold standard" map, therapists have creative latitude in phrasing, pacing, and technical detail—as long as the core process is respected. (Dr. Reyna, 29:26)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Insight | |-----------|--------------|--------------| | 02:48 | Dr. Hawkins | "You keep going deep over and over and over, even if you think you got enough." | | 03:00 | Dr. Hawkins | "Repetition is key, especially with that withdrawer. Because we're going against everything that life has taught them." | | 05:08 | Dr. Hawkins | "We're having to re-enter pain through the positive." | | 05:53 | Dr. Hawkins | "It feels like I'm backing down a very narrow, uncomfortable, shaky metal staircase down into someone's basement where it's cold and dark and spiderwebs and it's somewhere they don't really want to go." | | 07:57 | Dr. Hawkins | "I'm looking for deepest fear. I'm looking for negative view of self. And I'm looking for what keeps them from reaching for comfort." | | 09:58 | Dr. Hawkins | "That's why EFT has such a low relapse rate... we build those experiential bridges into those painful places." | | 13:26 | Dr. Hawkins | "To go get the deepest attachment need, you have to start with positivity." | | 17:45 | Dr. Hawkins | "Scenes are so powerful because we're trying to get away from that storying that... looks like more like a summary." | | 18:44 | Dr. Hawkins | "You don't want to go to a scene and stay there... we want to use that scene and then bring it alive in the moment." | | 28:16 | Dr. Hawkins | "If you get stuck in the scene... it becomes like individual trauma and it never gets converted back to co-regulation." | | 29:26 | Dr. Reyna | "Sue... gave us a map to follow, and she gave us space for creativity as we follow a map that's been proven to the APA gold standard." | | 32:05 | Dr. Hawkins | "...the more that they turn over stones, they become stronger to face their fears... as they build confidence and strength with themselves... with their partner... to bring love to a place that has felt, maybe condemning, ostracizing, oppressive, scary, overwhelming..." |

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [01:43] – Introduction of the episode’s focus: Stage 2 depth, how deep is deep enough, and "hovering" in Step 5.
• [02:43-05:27] – Understanding the need for repetitive deepening; discussion of session pacing and why superficial work isn’t enough.
• [05:53-08:09] – The “16 stones” metaphor explained: repeated, detailed exploration of painful memories in the "basement."
• [09:58-11:32] – The importance of building "experiential bridges" and addressing marginalized or oppressed experiences as stones.
• [13:26-14:41] – Transitioning from positivity back into the pain; the awkwardness and necessity of this move.
• [15:39-18:21] – The use and power of “scene work” for accessing and deepening emotionally significant memories.
• [24:44-25:34] – Checking for “conversion”: ensuring scene work connects to present experience and co-regulation, not just content.
• [26:19-27:24] – Exploring how attachment wounds in Stage 2 relate to raw spots in Stage 1.
• [28:16-29:26] – The risk of remaining in scenes and losing the relational, co-regulative focus of EFT.
• [32:05-end] – Closing inspiration on the role of bravery, repeated exploration, and the evolving strength of clients and couples.

Takeaways for Practitioners

• Go slow and go deep—repeatedly. Don’t rush Stage 2; instead, build safety with multiple, in-depth explorations.
• Seek and turn over every relevant "stone," especially those with unspoken pain, shame, or fear.
• Use evocative scene work to transition from cognition/story to embodied emotion, always making the present session the active site of healing.
• Always “convert the scene”—bring what happens in the past into the present moment for repair with the partner.
• Your creativity matters—follow the EFT map, but use your unique voice and relational touch as the model allows.

For listeners and EFT therapists alike, this episode provides both a conceptual roadmap and day-to-day examples of moving clients into the kind of deep, emotionally transformative work that prevents relapse and promotes lasting relationship healing.