125. Stage 2 Series: Accessing and Sharing the Negative View of Self-Important Component of Restructuring the Bond

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 125: Stage 2 Series – Accessing and Sharing the Negative View of Self: Important Component of Restructuring the Bond

Date: September 17, 2025
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins ("A/James") and Dr. Ryan Raina ("C/Ryan")

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Episode Overview

This episode is part of the ongoing Stage 2 series, focusing on the crucial—but often challenging—work of accessing and sharing clients’ negative view of self in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). James and Ryan discuss why this work is so difficult, the necessity of going beyond emotion into identity-level sharing, and the therapist’s role in facilitating and supporting clients and couples through these vulnerable moments. The dialogue includes real-life examples, supervision nuggets, and practical tips for therapists.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Challenge of Accessing Negative View of Self

• Complexity: Though it may sound simple, accessing and working with the negative self-view is deeply challenging, especially when trauma or attachment injuries are present ([00:00]-[01:40]).
• Protective Dynamics: Negative cycles in relationships often function to protect against the emergence of these deep-seated beliefs (“the part of themselves that they don’t let be seen… what keeps them from reaching” – James, [00:43]).

“Many of our clients… don’t allow themselves to go here.”
– James ([04:22])

• Chaos in Stage 1: Negative view of self is present in Stage 1 but heavily protected, surfacing only as chaotic or disembodied shame and often fueling the cycle ([07:16], [08:46]).

“It’s one of the major players in stage one... but it’s so protected, it’s so hidden in stage one.”
– Ryan ([07:16])

2. What Stage 2 Really Means

• Depth Shift: Stage 2 work requires moving from sharing emotions to sharing identity-level truths (“not just how I feel, but this is who I am” – James, [10:51]).
• Restructuring the Bond: This is less about pattern interruption and more about restructuring—inviting a partner into the core of a person’s self-view.

“This is a true sharing of self, like sharing of the soul. This is a spiritual transaction here.”
– Ryan ([08:51])

“In stage two, it’s not just how you feel, but this is who I am… not only am I afraid, but I also believe I’m not enough.”
– James ([10:51])

• Markers for Supervisors: A key marker of Stage 2 is when enactments move beyond passing emotion to revealing the negative view of self ([13:34], [14:18]).

3. Language and Techniques for Accessing Negative Self-View

• Enactment Questions: Use language that brings clients into the core of their self-view (e.g., “What are you afraid your partner would see if they looked into your deepest pit?” – James, [13:34]).
• Amplifying Internal Doubt: Ask if clients also believe what they fear their partner sees (“Do you begin to believe the same thing about you?” – James, [14:23]).
• Specific Examples: Identity-level beliefs often sound like “I am fundamentally unlovable,” “I am the problem,” “I am dirty,” etc. ([14:48]).

“If you believe that’s the truth of the essence of who you are… no wonder you wouldn’t reach and ever let anyone see you here.”
– James ([15:21])

4. Therapist Vulnerability and Leadership

• Therapist Attunement: The therapist’s task includes lingering with identity messages and deepening the conversation until the most painful kernel emerges ([16:17], [17:57]).
• Supervision and Learning: Both hosts express gratitude for supervisors who help them notice their own blind spots and for experiential learning with other therapists ([03:48], [04:08]).

5. Trauma, Attachment Injuries, and Origin of Negative Self-View

• Origins: Help clients gently explore the origins—trauma, attachment injuries, parental messages, abandonment, humiliation, family-of-origin patterns ([21:02], [23:36]).
• Timing: Stage 2 is the appropriate context for sourcing these early messages, whereas Stage 1 focuses on stabilizing rather than excavating origin stories.

6. Acceptance: The Next Therapeutic Step

• Why Share? Clients need opportunities for their negative working model of self to be witnessed and accepted by their partner, providing corrective relational experience ([18:50]).

“If that negative working model of self never gets challenged by an opportunity to receive acceptance… they will always have to live with the fear and keep their partner away from it.”
– James ([18:50])

• Restructuring Takes Repetition: The process requires multiple, repeated enactments for actual restructuring to occur ([20:13]).

7. Key Practical Advice and Considerations

• Linger Deeply: Don’t rush. Take several passes; dig until the “worst” negative view of self emerges ([24:56]).
• Embed in Enactments: Ensure negative self-view is present in enactments—not just fear ([25:32]).
• Caregiving Response: Guide partners to offer presence and comfort rather than arguments against the negative belief. Timing is essential to avoid inadvertently reinforcing conditional acceptance ([27:17]).

“If all you keep saying is, ‘No, you’re good,’… all you keep reinforcing to me is I’ve got to be good to be lovable… If there is any part of me that’s off, I better fix it before I let you see it.”
– James ([27:17])

• Real Example of Acceptance: Illustrative client moment where a partner receives the negative self-view with acceptance:

“Yeah, there have been times when that hurt me and I know it. And yes, I still love you.”
– Pursuer’s partner in a client story ([27:58])

8. Memorable Clinical Moment

• Real-World Impact: Sharing a poignant video where a client says, “I’m just like this broken little girl… shards of myself are left. Who would even want that?” and her partner immediately, confidently responds, “Me.” ([28:14])

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “It’s one of the major players in stage one… but it’s so protected, it’s so hidden in stage one.”
  – Ryan, [07:16]

• “This is a true sharing of self, like sharing of the soul. This is a spiritual transaction here.”
  – Ryan, [08:51]

• “In stage two, it’s not just how you feel, but this is who I am… not only am I afraid, but I also believe I’m not enough.”
  – James, [10:51]

• “If you believe that’s the truth of the essence of who you are… no wonder you wouldn’t reach and ever let anyone see you here.”
  – James, [15:21]

• “Linger, linger. Don’t think just the first time you get there, you’re like, okay, that’s it. Like, I really want to make sure you have the worst one in stage two. Linger and stay there.”
  – Ryan, [24:56]

• “If all you keep saying is, ‘No, you’re good’… all you keep reinforcing to me is I’ve got to be good to be lovable… If there is any part of me that’s off, I better fix it before I let you see it.”
  – James, [27:17])

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Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:00-01:40 – Introductions and essentials of negative view of self in EFT.
• 01:40-04:08 – Reflections on the recent SV Focus Lab, the kindness of the therapist community.
• 04:08-07:01 – The vulnerability of facing identity-level fears in clients; therapist learning and supervision.
• 07:01-11:13 – Stage 1 vs. Stage 2 distinctions, challenges in shifting to deep self-work, clinical insights.
• 13:34-15:49 – Practical language and questions for exploring negative self-view in session.
• 16:17-18:49 – The need to linger, moving past superficial expressions, therapist examples.
• 18:50-21:02 – Therapist intent, why restructuring requires acceptance, and handling breakdowns in session.
• 21:02-24:52 – Trauma and family-of-origin as sources of negative self-view; timing of trauma work.
• 24:56-28:08 – Supervisory/practical advice; handling caregiver responses; real client example of acceptance.
• 28:14-29:42 – Moving towards acceptance and the power of caregiving responses in restructuring the bond.

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Final Thoughts

This episode masterfully grapples with one of EFT’s most delicate and transformative moves: helping clients access and share their most guarded, painful self-beliefs, and guiding their partners to provide the accepting presence necessary to restructure the relationship bond. The hosts provide both philosophical depth and practical nuance, including supervision insights and moving real-life examples. The message for therapists: linger in the hard places, make the self-view explicit in enactments, and foster acceptance at the very core of the couple's dynamic.

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Transcript

[A]

All right, back into our Stage two series. We're going to be focusing on something that's actually seems simple, but it's actually hard working with the negative view of self, especially when there's trauma sitting nearby and attachment injuries.

[B]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[A]

Hello, everyone. Thank you for listening to the Leading Edge again. It's good to be back with you. It is, it is. And I think, you know, just getting. We're going to get back into our Stage two series and today we're going to be talking about. We've talked about bridging into Stage two. We've talked about, oh, gosh, setting the scene, really, of getting into these vulnerable moments and spaces. But then today we're just going to kind of hone in some more on working with the negative yourself. It is not an easy thing. Remember, this is the place that we're saying in eft. I would like to hear you on, Ryan, on this. For me, when I say it is, this is the place that has been kind of the negative cycle. Usually this is what it's been kind of protecting against coming true is the part of themselves that they don't let be seen. That really sometimes I think for many of my clients, it's what keeps them from reaching. Yeah, I don't reach for you because underneath I'm really afraid that, yeah, fill in the blank.

[C]

Right. That's why there's so much protection.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

It's one of, one of the main reasons why that, you know, if you get stuck in stage one, you're like, yeah, how long is this going to take? As deep as that negative model of self is how long it's going to take. All right, you know, let me back up a step there because we're coming fresh off of our SV Focus Lab at the recording, at the time of this recording, we just finished the 2025 SV Focus Lab. And I want to tell you, man, going into that thing, I know we have like 100 and something people. I'm thinking, is this going to be good enough leaving that thing? I'm. I'm embarrassed I didn't push it harder because it was such a successful event and the feedback has been off the chart. You know, we did new stuff, experimental. I say new you know, different iterations, different nuance. And one of my topics was, was deepening, heightening and looking at micro expressions and non verbals and, and trying to zoom in at, at looking at what happens for a person in those places. It was really good. We're going to do it again, so mark it down maybe late September 2026. We'd love to have you join us in person online. Sorry for the commercial.

[A]

That's all right, Ryan. Seeing it out there early, I appreciate.

[C]

That but because it really was good. I honestly wouldn't do that if it wasn't that meaningful. But it is, so. But we're always learning, right? I mean in my, what we called keynote, we did like a couple hours. We did little experiential things with a up close camera on someone's face as the person was sort of being evasive. And then we looked at it again when the person was inviting and we're picking up and people in the crowd were like, I've never even thought of that. And I hadn't either at times. So it's interesting how much there is out here to do our best work. So I do want to say one of the things that stood out to me in that lab was just the quality of the people. The same, the same week we're doing this, there was a very, very widespread murder happening and our culture kind of blew up on social media. Like the cruelty I was seeing at night looking at social media before I went to bed was such a contrast to the quality of people in that room. So that's my thank you. Today is just being this high character person that is, that are our listeners and, and I, I just appreciate how much you bring your real heart, the kindness that exists in that community that matters, that that's more important than our skill set. So thank you.

[A]

Yeah, Ryan, that was, that was a good one. I just wanted ditto that one. Seriously, you know, I appreciate seeing people who, whatever their views or whether they had they going on, that they still want to show up and do good on the behalf of humanity. So I second what you said, Ryan. Yeah. All right. And also I'll say on your keynote, I appreciated it. You know, you, I think you helped me notice something else again about me and I think that's why it's also good. I'll just say this, make it another quick plug. I want to say thank you to the supervisors out there. It was good meeting the supervisors at this SV Focus lab and hearing just the quality of people they are, the nuanced questions they're asking how they're fighting for people. But also, I guess it makes me keep thinking about how I've learned. It's like people outside of me point out something. So your focus on all those micro expressions, I didn't realize I rely on that so much. Which is why sometimes telehealth is a struggle for me because if my client doesn't have a good camera setup, they take away some of the things that I use to draw kind of my energy from when I don't get to see the watering of the eyes, the little looks that they sometimes do. So anyway, I thought that was a good keynote and I think that is going to be pertinent to today. So if I'm setting it up right and help me out here, Ryan, what we're trying to set you up as the listeners right now, it's. You've already been doing the work of kind of getting into the. And I said, no, this Ryan, doesn't you this way. But you're getting into the fray. Maybe you're getting into the place where everything they've tried to protect the relationship, to protect themselves, it's failed over and over. And now we're in the place where they're all alone. And now we're trying to get to that place of we're just really putting a light on them and saying, and how do you. What do you begin to believe about yourself in this place? What are the messages that come for you here? And while we're saying that's hard, it's one. Remember, their nervous system has been doing a very, very good job of keeping people away from this place, including themselves. So it really is a. It's a discovery mission because many of our clients, they don't allow themselves to go here. I remember I heard one client, when we're getting into the negative view of self, he would say, james, I always keep something going in my world because a silence is scary to me. I said, what is? What's scaring that silence? I be. I start beginning. I begin to start being confronted with who I am or who with really is who I believe myself to be in those places. And so what he showed me was he does such an exquisite job, he can't even show it to his partner because he can't even let himself be with that part of himself. So there's that part. There's all the shame and all the kind of the feared criticism and rejection from their partner. So what would you say, Ryan, makes this also difficult or hard from your perspective about working with the negative view of self.

[C]

Hmm. Several things. You know, I like what you and I talked about a little bit last time. I don't think it's a bad thing to repeat, you know, because people say negative view of self, that's a stage two task, and that is correct. But it's always there.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In fact, it's one of the major players in stage one. The difference is it's so protected, it's so hidden in stage one, in most cases, or when it comes out, it functions like this exit, what we call reactive shame, disembodied shame, or stage one shame. Jim Furrow would say that's not even really shame. But anyway, whatever that thing is in stage one, it's so chaotic, but it's a major player in stage one. Like we said, that damn that deadly attachment message function, that negative model of self functions as this incredibly tender raw spot so that when the cycle activates, when the partner goes into their protective strategy, it jumps all over this negative view of self. The difference is it tends to come out as either avoidance or blame in stage one, which is why we don't try to camp on it so much, because it actually exacerbates the cycle. But now that we have that cycle in a de Escalated place, it's still a real challenge here in stage two, because to get someone to really articulate that these are. These are aspects or not liking who they are, I mean, that is very, very raw and very, very, very vulnerable. Because it's one thing if I admit that I'm afraid and you drop me, but if I admit that I don't feel good about me.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Here's the two or three things where I start to turn on myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This place where I feel gross or ugly or too fat or too skinny. It's amazing how we all have this stuff. And if you drop me here, it feels suicidal. Right. And so that's a lot to ask. This is more than just vulnerability. This is a true sharing of self, like sharing of the soul. This is a spiritual transaction here. And transaction may not even be a deep enough. A deep enough term. And so just the raw depth of this. And you and I were talking before the break about, excuse me, a comment that George made, the one he decides to go for, working with negative model of self fully, which is stage two. George likes to reference it, seed it, you know, use it to amplify, you know, negative model of self is one way to get to primary emotion in stage one, which is confusing for people. But in stage two, when it's time to camp. You know, he talks about when he's going for that. He doesn't do a lot of emotion words in his enactments, which I completely agree with. Other people might disagree with that, and that's okay, too. This is art at this point, but it's really, really hard to get to. And you start trying to have people turn and talk about all kinds of different emotions. You can miss this. And I know that was Gail's critique last year, saying, look, I'm seeing videos, and it's just the same video twice. Right. So we're getting into the live emotion, and we're passing it over, and we're just calling Stage two, Stage two for no apparent reason. And this is your big. You know, one of your biggest markers that we're really in Stage two is when you're Was in your enactment, when. When you're no longer saying, here's how I feel, but rather, here's who I am in my worst day. Here's the. Here's the voice that says the worst thing about me. And honestly, I believe it.

[A]

Well, wait, that was a good clarifying. So in stage two, it's not just how you feel, but this is who I am. That even helps with an enactment right there to get clear. It's not that. Just that I feel alone and scared is that I believe I'm not enough.

[C]

Yes. That's restructuring, you see.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Whereas talking about how I feel in a different way is pattern interrupting. So breaking the negative cycle to de. Escalate it. But this is restructuring. Like, hey, this is the part of me that I always hide. And now you're the only person in the world who gets to be invited to this deep part of the closet that we all have.

[A]

And now we're about to go to break. But, y', all, that's a good nugget. If you're a supervisor listening and you're saying, like, how do I know if it's a Stage two one? Of course, there is a depth of experience, but we do want to hopefully see some type of enactment that, as Gail is in her wisdom, of course, is right. It's not just I'm afraid. It's literally, not only am I afraid, but I'm also afraid that I am unlovable or I'm too much or I'm a monster. That's good. That's good clarification. All right, we're going to get ready to take a quick break.

[C]

Yeah. As I mentioned before, there's a great resource in northwest Arkansas for EFT intensives. And let me say, there's great intensives all over the world. I got dear friends doing great intensives. Tennessee, Utah, Nevada, other places. They're all really great. I do think there's something unique happening in northwest Arkansas with people doing EFT as co therapists. So it's like attachment on steroids, right? So even the attachment between the therapist and between the couple, it creates this unique dynamic. I've had a chance to send a few of my clients to these folks and I get glowing results off the charts. And so these are all very experienced efters who really want to do this. A lot of them want to do this full time. So they get practiced and they talk about how they'll literally bring one person up to lead an EFT moment while the other person sits back and observ and pays attention to their body. And they'll switch back. One person will start to do, you know, your organization work. The other person will kind of tap the chair and they'll go deep. And it's just this beautiful systemic attachment interaction. So I can't recommend this highly enough. If you're interested for yourself or your clients, the email to get information is intensives at the Joshua Center.com intensives at the Joshua Center.com in northwest Arkansas.

[A]

All right, back in. That was a good clarifying nugget. Once again, for supervisors or for you as a therapist. When you're sitting there, you say like, is this stage two? You just need to ask yourself, did I do more than just pass emotion? Did I pass that vulnerable, negative view of self about what they fear in themselves, why they don't allow themselves to be seen in this place? That's one scene I. Tell me if I'm. That's one thing I've often thought about, Ryan, is when I. If I. I like to use a lot of scene work and I'll say so. And what keeps you, like, if your partner were to look down into this deep, dark pit, what are you afraid they would see if they saw you here in this place? What do you believe they would believe about you? That's one approach I've taken to. But the key is.

[C]

Or what's the worst thing that they might think? Yeah. If they were to see you in this worst of places, and then using.

[A]

The George one, because I saw George do this was good. Not only do you believe they believe it. I'm curious, do you begin to believe the same thing about you? Do you wonder that maybe they're right? This is actually who I Am. And then that's what we want them to turn and share. At times, I even believe that I'm not enough or I'm the. I'm the problem that's going to end this relationship.

[C]

Yeah. I'm fundamentally unlovable. I'm fundamentally flawed and too much and needy or on the pursuer side and. Or I'm. I'm. I'm. I am dirty and gross.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't even want you to come in because I'm so gross. It would get you muddy.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

It's that. It's that level of depth and it's a lot.

[A]

And I like that you kept saying that word. I know you might not always say the neck, but I like that it's fundamentally.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not like, you know, in a way in particular, I think you have.

[C]

An essence of who I am.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

Not just like an experience I'm having.

[A]

Exactly. Because think about how scary that must be if the. If you believe that that's the truth of the essence of who you are is this particular thing. No wonder you wouldn't reach and ever let anyone see you here. No wonder you would not ask for somebody to meet your needs. If you believe this is the truth about you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not even worthy of asking that question. So it's never been an option. At least in. At times, it's not even an option that comes up for you. You. Wow. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. The timing's pretty good for me because I did a mini intensive yesterday just by myself. But we were around this area and this is. I would say in the last three or four years, I think I've improved in this area that, you know, is. Is model of self. Working model of self, Negative model of self, view of self. Talking about the same thing. There is. Is that emotion or is that meaning? And my answer is yes, I think it's both.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

I really do. And I. I think it behooves us actually stage one and in stage two to learn to linger with identity messages. View of self messages very similar to how we deepen and heightened emotion.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

You know, so like yesterday it may. I took eight passes to get into the. Almost like a new acronym, you know, M N Mos. I'm being. I'm being. Being facetious there. Don't write that down. But I do think it's important. What is the most negative model of self? What is the very darkest message? The voice tells you. Right. And so with my client yesterday, the first two or three were like, yeah, Yeah, I can see how that's painful. But as I lingered and reflected and validated, it got worse and worse and worse. It got into, like, death level. I mean, you can tell this person's been in some hard places. And frankly, most people have.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Especially if they've been in a cycle for seven plus years. I mean, how do we make sense in the darkest places in the corner of our world? How do we make sense that the person who's supposed to love me the most doesn't? You can only blame your partners for so long.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Before.

[A]

Before.

[C]

And you turn on yourself. That's just. It's just human nature to do that or at least question yourself. And so to linger with that, to make sure that we have that kind of excavation and that the emotions online and we have the most negative thing that they experience is really what we're trying to do in this moment.

[A]

That's good rhyme. I was in an intensive and we got around the negative view of self, and the client had walked with me into it. But when it was time to turn and share it, they. It's an old video I used to watch with Ryan when we would travel on the roads. And we always say, pinky don't like it.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Sorry, we'll have to get. You have to. You have to book me and Ryan to come for a training to get the full context of that joke. That's true, but the point of it is.

[C]

Pulaski County Animal Shelter.

[A]

There you go, Ryan guy. So it was a cat that was trying. They were trying to kind of re home in a way. And the guy was trying to bring the cat out and say, like, hey, Pinky's a good cat. This net. But Pinky didn't like that moment, and Pinky's nervous system just freaked out. And that's exactly what happened to this pursuer when I tried to get them to share their negative yourself. And it was a rough one, right? It was. It was one of the roughest moments I've had. I'm glad I had a co therapist in that intensive way.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

But I'll say, it hit a point where I just had to say to the person, hey, I'm sorry. I just kind of followed you into this place, and you showed me where the cycle gets really bad for you. You. And what I wanted to help you with is to give you a chance to see if your partner can accept you in that place, because you've always been wondering, can my partner hold this kind of space with me? And if you can't do that right now, I completely understand it. But I do want to come back to it because I don't want to have to keep leaving. You wonder that every time this part of the cycle comes up. I don't want your mind and body to have to always wonder. But could they? Would they? So we can, we can take a moment, we'll circle back around to this. But that's why I'm trying to go there. And so that. That person just made me explain my intent about why do we do this? Because if you don't, if that negative working model of self never gets challenged by an opportunity to receive acceptance. Hint, hint, that's going to be where our next podcast goes, is working with acceptance. Then they will always have to live with the fear and keep their partner away from it because they never get going. What Ryan says it's restructuring because now the fear. I had just got new evidence that maybe they can the first time. Is it going to rewrite it right away? No. That's why we stay there and we do it multiple times over and over and over until their body has a reasonable enough kind of.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I believe that if given the opportunity, my partner could show up here for me. I don't know. What do you think about just some of that wording there?

[C]

And I like. It's perfect. I mean, I'm on a slightly different channel here. Just, just tracking with you, but. But sort of parallel with you, you know, I think it, you know, in stage one.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

In stage one, the question why is very dangerous. Like, I don't want to go source all the reasons for this experience because that's going to take us out of the experience. That's going to be an exit. In stage two, though, ironically, I don't want to ask a lot of questions about why, but now we're slow enough and we have enough space. It's not a bad idea to go source this and these horrible negative view of selves. Where do they come from?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so now sometimes it is helpful to use questions like tell me the very first time, you know, you got this message. You know, you can. I'm not saying you can never use that in stage one, but oftentimes it's just going a little fast.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But in stage two, it's important because negative view of self often comes from trauma memory. It often comes from that very difficult parent who was over the top, not helpful, or abandoned us. Attachment injury. Right. That affair that happened in year number two when now I've been in a relationship 31 years, and so I just had to lock that down. I had to lock this place out, disown my needs, disown these hopeful, romantic, sweet, you know, inner child kind of. I had to get rid of that and lock that up somewhere to survive this trauma, this relational trauma, this abandonment wounds. Too many losses in my growing up years. Humiliation, family of origin, toxic traits like, that's how these negative view of selves, it's like they germinate over decades. And by the time they're in our office in stage one, they're firing off protective strategies. And now we're finally able to go open that door with our love and compassion and hopefully a partner who's more available. But it's a serious business.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, so I see some people who are trying to rush couples into stage two, and I'm like, what are you doing? Like, no, no, no, no. That doesn't work like that. Just because you want them to be there doesn't mean that they're there. And this is kind of the depth that we're going for. So for me, you know, I did. I did two things in my training, you know, that I did dozens and dozens and dozens and rounds of externship. And then especially in core skills, I made two trips. I don't even want to tell you how much time and money I spent trying to. Trying to refine understanding of eft. And, you know, one was the story I went with Gail Palmer about the pursuer who attacked me and, and learning to just be a clarifier and relax when it's that bad. That was one trip I took, and then I took another trip to train with George Fowler before I even really knew him that well. And Karen Giunta, who's a supervisor out of Connecticut, and because what I wanted to know is at what step do you do attachment injuries? Right. Where does that fit on the map? Exactly. And as you might know, it doesn't exactly have a step that it goes with.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

You know, you got to handle it when it comes up. If it comes up in stage one, we're mostly trying to stabilize it, but this will be an ideal time. It's kind of that step 5B. Right. So along with negative view of self, now that we have this safety, this will be an ideal time to go do very focused work on a memory to open a memory of attachment injury. And the negative view of self will be before, in, and after these injuries. They're going to be all around it in Other words, in these memories. And so, doing your trauma work, this is our deepest intrapsychic step. I want to know all the ways life has hurt you. I want to be with where you lost your confidence, where you had to disown your own needs, disown these parts of you to survive something that was really, really painful. Because that is very adaptive. Right. And I'm so glad you could shut this off and survive. And yet now we have walls so big that we can't get love into you. And so these. This dismantling these bricks in the wall is a serious process, and it takes time and depth.

[A]

Wow. Do you have any more practical points on negative yourself? Right before we close?

[C]

I just want to reiterate. Linger, linger. You know, don't. Don't think. Just the first time you get there, you're like, okay, that's it. Like, I really want to make sure you have the worst one in stage two. Linger and stay there.

[A]

That's right. Hovering around that negative view of self, the thing that they. Not only that, they just feel. We're not just lingering in the fear. We will find the fear, but we need to look for the negative view of self, of themselves that probably sits right in the midst or right underneath that fear.

[C]

Yeah. I would just add. And it needs to show up in your enactment.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[C]

That's what we're passing. We're not just passing the fear.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

We're passing the fear. Is that you think I'm gross or. I'm sorry, excuse me, I said that wrong. Edit that out. Edit. We don't have an editor. Not just passing fear. What I mean to say is I'm afraid because I see myself as gross. Right. And so that needs to show up in your enactment. And then just a little nuance there. Be ready for the caregiving response, which usually more times than not, is helpful in stage two. But sometimes the caregiver wants to talk them out of it, which is well intended, but the cycle can use it. So I really want to help that caregiver just make comfort contact. Just like, I'm so glad you told me. I want to be here. Right. I want the comfort contact. And then after we kind of finish the mission, body in, body out, you know, people taking a deep breath, we're starting to move towards. What was that like for you? Then? I want to offer that caregiver to say, you know, I know you want to be there with your partner when it gets that dark. You know, what do you wish they could hold on to how do you see them? So we can add this encouragement and this positivity and this, you know, p. Vas Positive view of self. Right. Or positive view of other at that point. Pivu. But I want to be careful. The timing is important.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because if someone says, no, you're not bad, you're good. I do want to hear that eventually. But when. When it's in a raw place, what I'm mostly looking for is little Jimmy to get picked up.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Someone to solace him. So I think that's an important aspect.

[A]

Of step 5 100. And I think also it matters because if all you keep saying, no, you're good. Here's the inadvertent. You tell me if I'm way off here, Ryan. All you keep reinforcing to me is I've got to be good to be lovable.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And if there is any part of me that's off, I better fix it before I let you see it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So if. But if you can say, I remember one pursuer. She did a great job. Her with jar was like, you know, I pray that, you know, in my emotional. Like, I feel like I'm emotionally incompetent. And that's hurt you. She's like, she didn't try and talk him off. She said, yeah, there have been times when that hurt me and I know it. And yes, I still love you.

[C]

Nice.

[A]

Because it was acceptance of the negative view of self. Now she's not saying that. Stay there. But he revealed what he thought made him unlovable. And she's like, yeah, I can work with that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But he didn't believe that. He believes, like, I got to find some way to get better to become lovable kind of idea.

[C]

So anyway, you know, I think back to the SV Focus lab. I showed two videos, one of mine and one of Leanne's. So thank you, Leigh Ann, if you listen to this. But I showed a female do a negative view of self as a second pass. It was one of your former clients. Right. And she got into feeling so broken. And as she continued to share, first of all, the partner stopped everything else they were doing, turned in their chair and did a two hand hold. Right. And so. And so then she says, you know, I'm just. I'm just like this broken little girl. Just shards of myself are left. And she goes, she was saying it rhetorically. Who would even want that? And he. It was beautiful attunement because the partner goes, me. And there was a certainty in that. Response. There was a strength about I can handle this. I'm coming to find you. You're no longer going to get left in this negative view of self by yourself. And that's that restructuring we're looking for. That's a segue to episodes we got coming up. Right? How do you promote acceptance? That strong, attuned response from the partner. But I would just say the deeper the negative view of self, the stronger the caregiving response. So get another reason to go and stay deeper. Make sure we have the worst negative view of self.

[A]

All right, y', all, thank you so much for being on the leading edge with us and pushing our leading edge so we can help you push your leading edge so you can help your clients grow and have successive vulnerability on their leading edge. Appreciate you.

[B]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at pushtheleadingedge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayna Professional Training and on his website, ryanrenatraining.com you can follow James or on Facebook and Instagram @dochawklpc. You can also check out his website dochawklpc.com.