126. Stage 2 Series: Enactments-Step 5

Summary

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The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 126: Stage 2 Series – Enactments-Step 5

Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins, Dr. Ryan Raina
Date: September 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Step 5 of Stage 2 enactments within the Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) model. Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina share their experiences, clarify the unique qualities of Stage 2 enactments, and offer practical advice for therapists working on refining their EFT skills. The conversation balances technical breakdowns with candid reflections on the challenges—and rewards—of guiding clients towards deeper self-revelation and relationship restructuring.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Essence of Stage 2 Enactments

• Stage 1 vs. Stage 2: The hosts distinguish between Stage 1 “sharing of vulnerable experience” and Stage 2’s “sharing a vulnerable self” (07:13), emphasizing the transformational nature of Stage 2 enactments.
• Restructuring the Relationship: Stage 2 is about “literally showing you that I’m a secure base”—clients use enactments to risk revealing their innermost selves and see if their partner receives them (03:12–03:58).

2. Targets and Markers in Stage 2 Enactments

• Three and a Half “Materials”:
  • Deeper primary emotion
  • Negative view of self
  • Fear of reaching/exposing vulnerability
  • Deepest attachment need (the “half” marker, because it's less commonly reached but deeply significant)
• Risky Revelations: A central goal is “a risky revelation…to say, I’m going to take what’s in my internal world and put it out there before you to see if you will either accept it or reject it” (06:35).

3. The Importance of Embodiment and Timing

• Strike When It’s Hot: As soon as clients hit an embodied, deep emotional place, therapists should move into the enactment—don’t wait for some perfect structural moment (12:28–12:51).
• Avoid Summaries: Real change comes from clients struggling for new words, not summarizing familiar pains or views of self (11:11–11:48).

4. Therapist Skills: Setting Up and Managing Enactments

• Repetition is Key: Success in EFT often means repeated practice with steps five and six: “five and six, five and six…with the withdrawer, then again with the pursuer” (13:10).
• Preset (Pre-Enactment) Question: There’s debate over when to use “What would it be like to turn and talk to your partner about this?” Some therapists use it often; others avoid it to keep the process focused and emotionally alive (15:22–16:22).
  • It can clarify whether an emotion is truly present, especially when affect isn’t outwardly apparent.
• Managing Over-Talking: If clients launch into long explanations, therapists should intervene around the third or fourth sentence to keep the moment alive and embodied (19:13–19:30).

5. Certification and Clinical Nuances

• Certification Clarity: For those working toward certification, the distinction between Stage 1 (sharing vulnerable experiences like fear or pain) and Stage 2 (revealing negative self-views) is essential (07:31–08:00).
• Depth of Emotional Experience: Stage 2 enactments must involve "deep limbic experience" for "limbic revision"—surface-level emotion isn’t enough (16:40–16:53).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Courage Required in Enactments:
  “Enactments are awkward. This whole model is awkward. …we’re really doing the opposite of what they want. And it’s hard, and we have to trust it. You have to trust yourself. You have to trust the model. …it does take a tenacious person who hangs in and keeps trying.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, 01:44

• On the Fundamental Difference in Stage 2:
  “Stage one enactments are a sharing of vulnerable experience. Stage two enactments are sharing a vulnerable self.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, 07:13

• On the Therapist’s Role in Deepening:
  “It’s not enough that they just say it to you. As a therapist, I literally…want your body to see that it can take this risk and look into the eyes of your partner…”
  — Dr. James Hawkins, 08:57

• On Embodiment & Timing:
  “Step five may involve ten enactments. …as soon as we get our material ready…we want to pass it when it’s hot.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, 12:28

• On Avoiding Over-Talking:
  “You give somebody that seventh or eighth sentence, it’s not hot anymore. Now we’re in a summary. Now we’re telling a story…now it becomes disembodied, and you’ve got to start all over.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, 19:09

• Most Important EFT Question:
  “What would it be like to turn and talk about this negative you of self or fear of reaching or then even deepest attachment need. What would it be like to turn and ask for that to be met right now?”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, 17:59

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:12] – Introduction to Stage 2 enactments and the concept of restructuring the relationship
• [04:32] – Clear targets in enactments: self-view and attachment fears
• [07:13] – Major difference: Stage 1 vs. Stage 2 enactments
• [08:57] – Therapist insistence on direct, embodied revelation to partner
• [12:28] – Realities of pacing, timing, and repetition in Step 5/6 enactments
• [15:22] – The debate on using the “What would it be like…” preset question
• [16:40] – The necessity of deep limbic experience for transformation
• [19:09] – Dangers of letting clients over-talk and how to intervene
• [20:42] – Summary of what makes for a true Stage 2 enactment

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Summary Table: Stage 2 Enactment Essentials

| Concept | Description / Example | Timestamp | |-------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------|-----------| | Restructuring Relationship| “I am literally showing you that I’m a secure base.” | 03:12 | | Negative View of Self | Client reveals deep self-doubt: “I believe I’m unlovable.”| 06:35 | | Deep Limbic Experience | Emotion is embodied, not just discussed | 16:40 | | Therapist Directiveness | Insist on partner-to-partner eye contact and sharing | 08:57 | | Managing Process | Step in if enactment becomes talkative/disembodied | 19:09 |

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, experience-based breakdown of Stage 2 enactments in EFT, equipping therapists with subtle distinctions, cautionary tales, and actionable strategies. The conversation models compassionate rigor: pushing for emotional depth while remaining attuned to client readiness and the therapy process. The practical tips, personal anecdotes, and responsive teaching make this an essential listen for any EFT therapist seeking to advance from competence to mastery.

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Next Episode Teaser:
The series will continue with a focused dive into Step 6—how caregivers can be facilitated to come forward in response to vulnerability.

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Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, today we're going to cover stage two enactments, breaking them down, making them more clear.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of the. Of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, you all, it's good to be back with you. Ryan and I have been on the road. Ryan's coming back from where? A little road weary, right?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah, four or five in a row here. But I just got back from Missoula, Montana. Great community out there. They're setting the curve, man, on. On communities. Doing great events. So great to be with those folks.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. And I just got back. Let's see. I kind of hit up two places, but I was about to say Missoula, Houston, Texas.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Great community there. Doing some good work in Atlanta.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Hotlanta.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, Hot Lana. It was a good time.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And before we get rolling in today's topic, we're saying thank you. You know, as I was, I thought about us recording today, and the thank you in my mind is tisue again, you know, I just. Witnessing her work, had some good lives and some good discussions, but this model, as many times as I've taught it, I keep just feeling like, oh, there's another level to this. There's. This is so expansive and so much room. And her as a leader, she gave so much room for people to be creative. So once again, to sue and to John, just thank you so much.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Agree. Yeah, I'll go a different direction. We're talking about enactments today, and enactments are awkward. This whole model is awkward. Right. I mean, we're. We're really. We're really. We work so hard to align and be with people, and yet we're. We're really doing the opposite of what they want. And it's hard, and we have to trust it. You have to trust yourself. You have to trust the model. You know, 40, 50% of enactments get blocked. So I just want to thank you for the resiliency. I did a. I did a live demo last week, and it went pretty well. You know, pre in the setup, you know, I said, I don't expect these people to be able to do much eft. They had a lot of stuff going on, and I wasn't completely wrong. Good things happened, though. But when I came back out, multiple people were just like, man, I Just want to. I just want to honor the amount of tenacity they kept using that word that I showed because it's hard. It's just stuff moving everywhere, you know, and their bond is very insecure. So I want to. I didn't think of it as tenacity. I just thought of it as this is the next sort of progression and trying to stay on that. But when I. When I zoom out and think about our participants, it does take a tenacious person who hangs in there and keeps trying. So thank you for being tenacious.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's cool. All right, Ryan. So we're going to get into breaking down stage two enactments. Maybe different types. What we hope is in them.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're. They're. In some ways, they're the same. In some ways, they're very, very different. And it is important to remember that, you know, our clients don't know we're stage two necessarily. I guess you could talk to them about it, about that. I really don't. But, you know, the thing that. The thing that occurs to me about stage two enactments is they're restructuring, whereas stage one enactment, sometimes they're a dip in the pool. Stage two is a full sense of, you know, if you can show up. For me here, it is a cultural change of us, like we have restructured. I am. I am literally showing you that I'm a secure base. And so this is the kind of depth we're going for in stage two enactments.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I like that wording. This is the restructuring of us. So I don't know if you're ready to go there. I'm trying to think of, you know, I want to give in clear targets and markers for some of these enactments and stage to now. So I'll go to this. So the. For me, the first target becomes that I want to get go for is an enactment with the view of self, a clear enactment of view of self and maybe the attachment fear associated with it. That's the first target for me. I don't know if you've got more you want to say.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

No, I. I just. It's funny you say that. I just written down there's kind of three and a half materials. That's the way. It's a funny word that I'm using there. I don't know. Probably a better word.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

But kind of three and a half materials that I'm looking for at any point in stage two. Certainly the ones that you said are on that list. I do think there's Room for a qualitatively deeper primary emotion. Yeah, right. I mean, we're doing primary emotion. We think about step three, stage one, Tango two. Yeah. All those confusing. Yeah, but, but, but really, really get into deepest, deepest fear. Right. Trauma, Trauma. Memories come forward sometimes. Some. Some, you know, younger child, those kind of attachment injury, you know, openings are. One negative view of self to me is a major marker.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

If I don't see that somewhere, I start to think, are we in stage two?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Oh, for sure.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. Fear of reaching. Like, what key what happens for you that keeps you from exposing your negative yourself? Those two do hold hands, like you're saying. And then that deepest attachment need. And that's the hardest one. Right. That's where most couples therapy models start talking about needs. Eft have it closer to the finish line. It's an awkward one, but it's huge when it goes well.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right. So thank you for lining those out as well. That's what I thought we were going to do. I like that. So I, like you said, even before the negative U of. So maybe along that journey, you just hit a deep pocket of some memories or something of some sort. Or just. I want to call it a block, but just something that says, hey, pay attention to me. So you could do enactments around that. Then there's the negative view of self. And I know we kind of mentioned this one in the last episode, but this on this, when I was out, I got to do a live. And in the live, both of them to share the negative yourself, I could just feel the qualitative difference. It's like the person could turn and then they would share this emotional experience, but they would leave that little piece off of and I believe I'm unlovable. And you could just almost watch their body take this deep exhale as they would have to say that part of the statement. So I think that even more clear for me in these enactments and stage two is they are very much. It's like a big revelation. A risky revelation is what I would call it to say, I'm going to take what's in my internal world and put it out there before you to see if you will either accept it or reject it kind of thing. I don't know.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I like that you caught that pause because that's literally their body going, oh, down another level of basement.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Like, I got to find another set of stairs here to go even deeper than this sadness or fear I was sharing into. You know, I think stage one enactments are a sharing of vulnerable experience. Stage two enactments are sharing a vulnerable self.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's a beautiful way to say that, Brian.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I hope y' all caught that. That is, you know, once again, because part of why we did this series is just to help people get even more clear on certification. That's it. Stage one is about experience. So, yes, if you're in stage, to share fear, but that's still. They've done a lot of reps around fear and pain in stage one. What they need to do is. This is the risky part, is I'm going to put out the parts of me that I have not liked or. Or I have not asked for comfort. Literally out there to see if you want. If you receive that.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. I mean, this is the. If you think about someone getting dressed on their first date, this is. This is the part of them that they're putting makeup over, you know, or how they're doing their hair. People who have hair, you know, whatever it is, we're trying to put our. We're trying to put our best foot forward. We're trying to wear our nicest clothes, all to hide this fear that maybe I'm not enough. Right. And then as the relationship progresses over so many years, that becomes kind of cancerous in terms of how it impacts the cycle, because it's awfully hard not to get stuck in protection moves if a significant part of you thinks that maybe you're not enough. And what we know is that all of us have that part of us. So the cancer heals. I don't know if that's a great metaphor, but the cancer heals when someone's no longer alone. And the part of them that thinks maybe they're not enough, maybe there's something about me that's not so worthy of love.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So once again, good case for why we really need to push to get them to let them. And by the way, it's not enough that they just say it to you. As a therapist, I literally, if they don't look in the eyes of their partner and say. I'm saying, hey, I'm. I'm sorry. I'm trying not to be picky here, but I just need to see that your body. I want your body to see that it can take this risk and look into the eyes of your partner, oh.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

You'Re nicer than me. I don't even apologize. Go that way.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Oh, gosh. All right. But then I guess then the next. So there's that, you know, I don't know if we need to say anything particular But I would say so that big. When they reveal that view of self into that and they reveal it, the next part of, I would say with the enactment, with that is it can get wobbly in that. Step six is what I'm looking at.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And being able to help the caregiver come forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

We're going to do. I think we're going to do next episode completely on that. Oh, but you're right to think about it, because how you set the enactment has a significant role and how set up the caregiver is to sort of win or lose or to either, you know, be responsive or block.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's good.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. But I just want to say this. It's obvious, but, you know, we do. You know, we've said this before in the podcast. A couple of years ago, Gail was talking about. Gail Palmer was talking about grading certification videos. And she goes, she is kind of like a little complaint to us as trainers. She goes, I'm just seeing the same video twice. Stage one, someone's in fear, passes it. Great. Stage two, they go right back to the same fear, passes it like, that's not stage two. So she's looking for that next staircase down that in the fear. What's the sense of you that helps you be afraid? Right. I'm unlovable, I'm ugly, I'm too tall, too short, too skinny, too fat. All the things that plague us as humans. Right. We all have that going. The question is, what are you gonna do with it? You gonna hide it and try to perform, or are we going to take the risk to let it be seen and invite the partner in? So I just want to say, I say that. I say all that to say we don't make sure that we're getting the view of self.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

But we just as much need to make sure it's not a summary. Right. This is not just like, oh, yeah, yeah, I always struggle to think I'm unlovable. That's not it. Meaning that your client should be reaching for words. They should be like. I'm not quite sure what to call it. Like, that's. That's part of how, you know, oh, okay, we're in. We're in stage two territory here. When they're having to sort of fight for the next word, that's showing we're in new territory. This is not the same conversation we have at home. Because you can say some not negative view of self stuff. Kind of in a reactive shame.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

As if to say, get away from me. Or, yeah, or so look what you've done to me. And that's not what we're looking for. Maybe that's obvious to the listeners, but I think it's important to clarify.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

No, I think it is important to clarify. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And, you know, I just got two more notes. I'll just keep flowing, unless you want.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

To jump in now. You got it.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

All right. James just got off the road. I've had two days to rest. So I remember going to core skills my first or second time and asking George, sue others. You know, when are you hitting your enactment? Exactly. And it's important to know. Don't think that way. Basically, when they're ready.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Okay.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So step five may involve 10 enactments. So some people get to thinking, okay, so we're going to do step five, we're going to do step six, and we'll enact it in step seven. No, no, no, no. We don't want to be structured like that. We want to make sure we don't miss good opportunities. So as soon as we get our material ready, as soon as they're in one of those three or four things and it's really embodied, we want to pass it when it's hot.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay. So don't. Don't wait too long and miss these. These sort of really strong emotional moments.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, yeah, I agree on that. When I saw that on a tape of mine even recently, I'm like, james, why? And then that's what I think helped me this last week. I remembered that note and said, nope, it's there. Let's go for it.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. Then the other thing. The other two things I had in mind to say, well, let's go backwards. First step. Good, good. Stage two, in my experience, watching lots of people do it, giving it a shot myself is doing many, many step five and sixes over and over and over. To me, that's when you become a really effective couples therapist. When you can develop a skill set to handle stage one reactivity, which is hard and you gotta grind. I don't care how good you are, sometimes you just gotta be repetitive. And so many assemblies and assemblies and being with people and organizing painful experience and establish safety and small enactments which slowly grow and one day they de. Escalate. Right. And then if you. So if you get proficient at that, and then you get proficient at going deep in five and work and being ready for all things that can happen in step six to make you're a very effective couples therapist. I agree. Yeah. And then we'll talk about step Seven, which is the. The Hollywood moment. But five and six, five and six, five and six, five and six, five and six with that withdraw. Right. And then doing that again multiple times with the pursuer. I'm saying that because I wish someone had said that to me. If you're new to the mod, I didn't quite understand that that's the game here, that we're developing muscles in that way. And then the preset to me is an interesting discussion. Love to hear what you have to think about this, Doc Hawk. You know, I have some mentors who are better than me, and they use the phrase in almost every enactment. So they're in. In an emotional place, stage one or stage two, and the emotional moment is hot. And they start with, what would it be like to turn and talk to this. To your partner about this fearful place? They start every enactment that way. Right. And then they go through a concise way to get them to turn. Can you turn right in right now in your chair and tell them about the fear? Right. So I tend to put that in stage two, the pre question, the preset question. Some people do it all the time. I know people who don't ever use it. I'm kind of curious with you. How do you come down on the whole, what would it be like to turn and talk to you, to Nicola, about how you question yourself?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Ooh, yeah. There's. There's two ways I think of it. One, I'm a little bit afraid of it clogging up the lane.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yep.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Like, I ask it, and now I gotta. It invites more discussion that pulls us out. And then I gotta reset the table. But the time when I do, I am tempted to use it if I'm looking across, maybe at someone who's talking to me about stage two type stuff, but I'm not seeing the affect. But my gut says maybe they could be. I'm just not. They're not showing it culturally, how I might be used to seeing you.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And so I said, hey, what would it be like? And that's my way of trying to get a tell. It just helped me in Houston. Shout out to Houston male withdraw, super stoic in his face. But I'm like, man, I'm feeling it in my body. So I asked it to say, what would it be like? And he told me. He's like, oh, my heart's. My heart is beating fast. Oh, so we are in it. Okay. So right now, could you.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So you kind of double used it there. One, you were actually checking.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

To see if it was alive in the moment.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Correct.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay. So you weren't checking so much to see what the fear of reaching is. You were just checking it. Do you actually afraid? Are you actually afraid? Yeah. But you're actually using it. You're also saying then that you're using it to help yourself deepen almost in a way.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes. Especially around like as you said, stage two enactments.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because Katharine Ream shout out to her as my mentor when I was a trainer in training, she said, james, stage two, they have to have deep limbic experience, have deep limbic revision. So she just like you have to drive at home deep.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

You have to have deep limbic experience to have limbic revision. That's good. And I do share your concern. That is going to clog this thing up. I mean, I think about my last live, it was tough sledding. I knew it was going to be. We did six enactments in the session. All of them were hard and it's like taking everything I have and taking everything they have to get the enactment. So I never use the preset question there a pre enactment question where it's like, what would it be like to turn and talk? Because I wanted them to turn and talk. I think it's a good rule of thumb in therapy. Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to. And I didn't want that answer. I wanted them to try it. Right. I want them to get in the arena and let's play and we'll. And then we're going to deal with what comes up. So I think that's a mentality. But I do think it's a really important question. So that's how I want to land with this, is that what would it be like to turn and talk about this negative you of self or fear of reaching or then even deepest attachment need. What would it be like to turn and ask for that to be met right now?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Because the answer this is Jim Farrow's quote. It's probably the most important question in all of eft.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Because it's finding out what's the experience that that is preventing a secure bond. So we need to know this question. The question is, when are you going to use it? Do we use it sometimes in stage one? Sometimes state not in stage one. Do we use it every time in stage two? Most of the time that's something that you have to decide for yourself. But I think it's good to be intentional why you're doing it. Some people are just using it like A robot. I'm like, did you want to know that question? They'll be like, I thought that's just what you did with enactments. I'm like, it's optional. Or sometimes people don't use it at all. And I'm like, hey, it's really important. What would it be like to turn and talk about this whole new very.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Painful experience and be ready with your counter move in case they go into a long story of count, count three to four sentences. Hey, I'm sorry. Make my bad with that question. Can I go back to this?

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And I love that. James and I, you and I both teach it that way. And sometimes I get a little criticism. That's kind of cookie cutter feeling, but, man, it is really accurate.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

You give somebody that seventh or eighth sentence, it's not hot anymore.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Now we're in a summary. Now we're telling a story now that now it becomes disembodied, and you got to start all over. And it's okay to start all over. Gail and Kenny counterpoint you and I by saying, you can start over. I'm like, yeah, but we're on the clock.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I mean, these people are going to be in their car in 25 minutes, going somewhere else. And so I don't want to restart this thing nine minutes later. So, you know, if you. If you. If you have a good feel that we're on map and we need to make this thing happen and someone wobbles on you, you know, catch them about that fourth sentence and lovingly reset them. And I think clients actually are appreciative of that. Yeah, you're shaking your head really strong.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I had a lot of that on this last live. And they were. They were so cool about it. But I'm like, hey, hey, hey, hey. It's my bad, but I gotta stay here. I love what your body's going for, but if we miss this moment, then we're going to be stuck in that same vicious cycle. So let me stay here. Yeah, so exactly.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So we're mostly talking today about. About our enactments in step five. Step five, six, you know, so the material we're looking for is a qualitatively different and deeper level of primary emotion. It does need to be alive in the session. This does not even. Even if someone's talking about deep needs, but it's not in the primary level of emotion. We're not there. And the big one, the negative view of self, what's that deepest fear below all that? And can I take a risk to let it be seen.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Awesome. Next time Step Talking about Step six. Thank you all.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and On his website ryanrenatraining.com you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website doc hawklpc.com.