127. Stage 2 Series: Cargiving Response - Step 6 Orientation to Green Lights

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy"

Episode 127: Stage 2 Series: Caregiving Response – Step 6 Orientation to Green Lights
Date: October 7, 2025
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins & Dr. Ryan Raina

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Overview

In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina take a deep dive into Stage 2, Step 6 of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT): the caregiving response, focusing particularly on "green lights"—moments when a partner is ready and able to offer comfort in response to their partner's vulnerable sharing. The conversation orients therapists-in-training to the qualities, cues, and therapist interventions that enable rich, healing connections at this pivotal stage. The hosts also share clinical tips, reflections, and personal insights, helping therapists develop both technical skill and the capacity for heart-centered presence in the therapy room.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: What is Step 6 in EFT? (00:00–04:30)

• Step 6 involves moving from helping clients uncover their core, vulnerable beliefs about themselves (Step 5) to inviting them to share these beliefs with their partner.
• The focus shifts onto the partner—can they "be with" their loved one in this raw place?
• James: “If I can reveal that, that's tearing down another huge barrier from me being able to reach for comfort, because the reach for comfort means I have to take the risk of also being seen.” (03:25)

2. The Power & Responsibility of the Caregiver Response (04:30–06:40)

• Deep exploration of reluctance to reach increases the odds of receiving comfort from the partner.
• Vulnerability is contagious—inviting one partner to risk evokes the other's caregiving instincts.
• Ryan: “The more we explored someone's reluctance to reach, the more you increase the likelihood of the partner's acceptance.” (05:13)

3. Misconceptions about “Acceptance” (07:01–09:30)

• Acceptance isn’t condoning negative self-beliefs; it’s the willingness to sit with a partner’s reality without minimizing or “fixing.”
• Reminders against the Western tendency to offer solutions rather than presence.
• Ryan: “That word acceptance is trying to say don’t do what a lot of Western culture does, which is try to talk them out of it.” (07:55)
• James: “Even when we try and coach or reassure, we are inadvertently sending the message…that part of you cannot be on the stage with me.” (08:08)
• Use Brene Brown’s language of “joining in the hole” not rescuing from above.

4. Green, Yellow, Red Lights—Reading Caregiving Cues (12:03–12:47)

• Green Light: The caregiving partner is emotionally present and ready to offer comfort.
• Yellow Light: Mixed signals—some willingness, some resistance.
• Red Light: Partner’s body or mind resists; "cannot go there" emotionally.
• Importance of therapist being ready for any “light color,” not projecting or hoping for any specific response.
• Ryan: “Our job is to be ready for anything… The sooner that you can embrace that and keep both your feet on the ground...that’s when you’re providing the safety.” (11:07)

5. Qualities of a Genuine Green Light (12:47–14:32)

• A green light is not communication technique, but embodied, instinctual comfort.
• Slowed-down pacing, mostly nonverbal responses (touch, tone, presence).
• Ryan: “I would prefer a mostly nonverbal, caregiving response. That’s how strongly I feel that I don’t want this to be communication. So…open caregiving, like, it's very natural, very instinctual.” (13:48)

6. Techniques for Inviting Caregiving (15:32–23:59)

• Precision in therapist prompt matters: General or meta questions (“What was that like for you?”) can lead to impersonal answers.
• Use somatic cues and vivid, present-moment prompts: “Right now, right here, when you heard her voice break, when you saw her tear—what happens for your body as you heard that?”
• Use your own “risk voice” and deep presence to draw out authentic responses, mirroring the vulnerability you’re inviting.
• Ryan: “My ability to take a deep breath, be present, and I’m fine with whatever happens, I think might be the biggest key in this moment. In touch with my own vulnerability and making that vulnerable choice.” (12:18)
• James: “Don’t go over there with a general question. You will ruin your efficiencies...But what Ryan just did is what a good shooter would do. Like, hey, line it up like this…” (22:34)
• Clinical example: noticing even a pinky finger of comfort and making it explicit in session as an embodied caregiving cue.

7. The Centrality of the Caregiving System in EFT (15:32–19:25)

• The caregiving system—not just individual vulnerability—is the heartbeat of EFT.
• Responsiveness to each other creates transformative change.
• Ryan (on Sue Johnson): “But don’t forget, this is Sue’s version of don’t get it twisted. This is all about responsiveness and the caregiver.” (15:55)

8. Equal Emphasis on Deepening Both Sides (21:10–23:59)

• EFT therapists excel at dropping clients into deep emotion but must equally hone the art of inviting caregiving at depth.
• The therapist’s “risk voice” should be carried from one partner to the other to sustain the vulnerability.
• James: “We spend so much time on...learning to drop people into emotion...then we don’t spend the time on using ourselves the same way to get that caregiving response. That should be the title of this whole episode.” (22:26)
• Ryan: “Are you staying in that risk voice? Are you inviting the caregiving system at the same pacing, the same depth, with the same amount of focus that you did in your deepening?” (26:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It takes vulnerability to kind of invite vulnerability. Because...we are inviting the caregiver into something that's vulnerable for them too.” — James (06:10)
• “It's a whole different thing...it is a vulnerable choice because I have to touch my vulnerability to touch yours.” — Ryan (09:36)
• “When people can be responsive to each other's inner world, it changes the culture of us. We hit the synchronicity, we start dancing to the same song. People can solve their own problems.” — Ryan (15:58)
• “In stage two, I think the caregiver needs to have success at giving care at that deep limbic space. So that way they know they have it in them as well...” — James (26:35)
• “Watch yourself. This will change your career.” — Ryan (26:58)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–04:30: Framing Step 6 in EFT and setting up the emotional context.
• 05:13: Exploring reluctance to reach and its effect on partner responsiveness.
• 07:55–08:08: The meaning of “acceptance” and common pitfalls in Western approaches.
• 12:03–12:47: Introducing the “traffic light” metaphor for caregiver readiness.
• 13:48: Description of nonverbal/embodied caregiving responses.
• 15:32–15:55: Emphasizing the core of EFT: responsiveness and caregiving.
• 21:10–22:26: Necessity of deepening the caregiving side with equal care.
• 22:34: Clinical metaphor about precision in inviting caregiving.
• 26:35–26:58: Final takeaway on risk voice and career-shifting practice.

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Key Takeaways for EFT Therapists

• Step 6: Is pivotal—caregiving must be embodied, not “fixed” or intellectually addressed.
• Caregivers need support—therapists must cue, pace, and attune to draw forward authentic, limbic caregiving.
• Your risk voice matters—carry the same presence and depth to both partners.
• Precision in invitation transforms outcomes—meta questions dilute energy.
• Watch for green lights—and celebrate, anchor, and expand moments of genuine care.

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This episode is an essential listen for any EFT therapist striving to get “clean” caregiving responses and to nurture the full power of the model in their room.

Transcript

[A]

All right. You've done all the hard work of dropping down into someone's emotional world and finding out about these very painful messages that they believe about themselves. Now it's time to get them to share that, but also to help the other person. Can they take this moment and be with them in it? That's what we're going to talk about. Step six. Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson. All right, welcome back, everybody. Good to see you back here, Ryan. We both just gotten back off the road. I got a chance to hang out with some really great people in the Boston, Massachusetts, EFT community. So it's great to work with them. How about you?

[B]

Same here. Tampa eft. Killing it. Tampa Bay EFT community.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

Great folks. Doing a great job. Huge group. It was awesome. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not as much beach time as I wanted. Other than that, it was excellent.

[A]

Did you get any?

[B]

I didn't. Okay.

[A]

I wasn't sure.

[B]

I was like, it's a kicking myself on that one. I had a little bit of a hurried trip, but it was a good, good group.

[A]

Well, and as always, Ryan, always like to start off just by saying thank yous.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I know this is one I tend to give to people while they're in training, but it always does hit me to see what people are willing to invest time, energy, financially to get better on behalf of their clients. Like, I looked at them and I was like, your clients have no idea the commitment you made this year through externship. Core skills one and two, core skills three and four. They don't know how much money you paid. They don't know how many tears you've cried. But thank you on behalf of. Of making a sacrifice and even for you listening right now, you're just once again committing another 30 to 20 minutes or 40 minutes of time to get better on your client's behalf. So thank you for what you're doing.

[B]

Agree. We're attuned. Today. I was thinking my think is the same thing or very similar. You know, we were in Tampa. We did a live. Catherine de Bruyne did a live. And we had three of the group give feedback. All three of them, as they came to the mic, you know, their voice kind of broke. One person had some tears, you know, which Sent back over to this couple who's being really vulnerable. Then they're in tears. I'm like, this is. This is special. Something that we got. Something that we do not. Not most. Most psychotherapy approaches don't work from the heart. I mean, I'll just say that at the same. At the same level. A lot of EFT years do, and that matters. I. You don't see it very often in the world, period. I see it in certain faith traditions. I see it in eft. I'm really drawn to that. That's why I'm here. And so I appreciate how you put your heart in your work.

[A]

Wow, thanks. That's a good one, Ryan. That's good. Working from the heart feels like that should be a podcast series right there, too.

[B]

If we're not doing that, man, what are we doing?

[A]

Having a really deep discussion.

[B]

Speaking of which, charging your card.

[A]

Charging card, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or I like your other one. Bartenders can do what we do, too, in a way. They can hold really good conversations.

[B]

Hope they do. We could use a few more of those in our society right now.

[A]

Ain't that the truth?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, so let's locate ourselves. We're back in our stage two series, and specifically here we are now going to be talking about step six, and for us in step six, Step six is a big moment. So. But I got to tell you, once you just load step five, to make it clear, Step five, we have now dropped down into their. Into very much into their intrapsychic world to listen to the messages that they've begun to believe about themselves. Not just the messages they get from others, but what do you begin to believe about you that keeps you from letting your partner see you in this place? Or if they were to see you, what are you afraid that they would see? And what we're trying to do, in an EFT way, at least the way I think of it, is because if I can reveal that, that's tearing down another huge barrier from me being able to reach for comfort, because the reach for comfort means I have to take the risk of also being seen. And so now, though, what we're trying to help is in this very. Oh, go ahead.

[B]

No, I just want to add. That's well said. Excuse me. I just came out of a stage two training. In our group, we were. We were playing with this idea out of five, you know, so we definitely were wanting to touch the negative model of self. Deep intrapsychic and. And layering. Exploring, fear of reaching. Right. You know, so Marlene Best's famous tape that was probably one of the first ones that came out years. And I mean, a long time ago we showed some of that. And she spends like 40 minutes doing nothing but that. In Pursuer Softening, just. Just layering and rolling in. What would it be like to even think about reaching? What would it be? What. What comes up, what might happen. And what we picked up on is the more we explored someone's reluctance to reach, the more you increase the likelihood of the partner's acceptance. Right. So if, if, if Nicole is going to jump to you, it's one thing you're going to try to catch her. But if she's able to stop and talk about how hard this is to jump it, what's a good verb right there? It increases. I don't. Yeah, it's like you start getting ready. You're like, okay, this is a big moment for her. I need to be on my best here. I need to set aside my concerns because she's shaking up there, considering jumping. So there's. We're talking about these two things as if they're separate, but in reality, how deep you go with model of self, how deep you are, period. And then as you explore how reluctant someone is to share, you increase the likelihood of this good caregiving system. In step six, we're about to talk.

[A]

About, that was a good nugget, Ryan, because it just reminds me, I think we used to say for a while, me, you enjoy. Like, it takes vulnerability to kind of invite vulnerability. Because even with the. For the caregiver here, one of the things we'll say here, at least for me, it's because we are inviting the caregiver into something that's vulnerable for them too. So definitely. I like that. So helping to even. I know we talk about sometimes the fear of reaching, like between six and seven, but maybe even a little bit of that between five and six to really set up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you really don't let anyone see you here because what's the fear if you let people see you here? What could that mean? I remember one of my clients, she said, well, that would be game over James. Or what? It wasn't Pursuer. Just a couple of weeks ago, he was like, then she'll be disappointed in me if I were to let her see this place. So. All right, okay, so let's talk about.

[B]

How we do all that. And now what?

[A]

And now what? So one, a couple things. I guess what I'll say is, well, I want to go to first, Ryan, let's let's be ready for all the things that could possibly go. I wouldn't say go wrong, but what are we asking the caregiver to exactly step into? I remember one participant when she sees, in the eft way she sees that word acceptance, she struggled with that a little bit. Like, are we just asking them to accept that they're a failure and that's a loser and they're a loser? Like, no, no, we are not asking them to just accept that. But what we are asking is, is can you accept that this is a reality that your client, that your partner is wrestling with, and are you willing to be with them when they have to face these fears?

[B]

Yeah, I'd be kind of curious what that person meant with that question, because I don't know what they meant. I wasn't there. But I mean, that word acceptance is trying to say don't do what a lot of Western culture does, which is try to talk them out of it.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Yeah. Or like boundaries or I'm going to call you out of your shame. It's like that. That's probably not going to work.

[A]

It'll exacerbate it.

[B]

Exacerbates it, exactly.

[A]

Because remember what they're already wrestling for.

[B]

The therapist too, by the way.

[A]

That's right. Yes. Because remember what your client's already wrestling here, even what we're up against clinically, they've already been fighting with. They don't let anyone see this part of them. They don't even like this part of them. So then even we try and coach or reassure, we are inadvertently sending the message, you are correct, that part of you cannot be on the stage with me. Like, I need you to take care of that. Which is a fear they already have.

[B]

Yep, exactly.

[A]

So that's one.

[B]

But it is. It is counterintuitive, countercultural for many cultures. I don't know. Well, the. Which. All the which ones. A lot of the ones I'm around at least to. To see someone that you care about who's in a shame place in a shame pit, and then that the move is to jump there, jump in there with them. I'm mindful that old Brene Brown cartoon years ago where there was some animal in a pit and there was one animal who's like reaching down and saying, oh, it's bad. Do you want a sandwich? Right. This is what we're like a little bit when we're trying to offer solutions and strategies and problem solving and too much psyched sort of that misattuned level. And it's a whole different thing. I think it was a bear who jumps in the hole with them. And Renee Brown says it's a choice to join someone there. It is a vulnerable choice because I have to touch my vulnerability to touch yours. And so we are the caregiving system in step six, and then we're trying to make that contagious to the partner.

[A]

That was a great description that we've got to be willing to vulnerably jump in, which is why we don't try and take one person to this level of depth in stage one, because, one, their body probably will reject it. But two, we do need to make sure that there's a reasonable enough level of safety and assurance that the caregiver won't get so hijacked into their own story and pain. And that way they can stay there to be there. Is. All right if I talk about. Because I know part of why we're doing this is we want people to be able to, you know, one, meet Ryan and I doing supervision and then also seeing certification tapes and just really wanting to get this cleaner. But it's all right if I hit some of the kind of, like, nice. I don't know if this is where you want to go where. This tends to go south sometimes, Ryan, and it can. In stage two, I don't get this often. I don't get the big red light moments where the person says, I can't do this. I don't want to do this. But it's usually kind of like nice little misses things like what Ryan was just hitting on. Well, I don't see you that way. Oh, I. I don't want you to be. I don't want you to feel like that. And all of those have a nice message within them. What they're really saying is, is I want to find some way to get you out of that.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

But that's the. That's part of the problem.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's what I. I'm mindful with Sue. You know, when I train, I still kind of do this. I'm trying to get a little better. But our job is to be ready for anything. Stage one, stage two, stage 102, you don't know what you're going to get. And the sooner that you can embrace that and get both your. And keep both your feet on the ground to say. And not hope too much. Yeah. You know, to say, whatever happens, I'm going to adjust. No problem. There's a. There's an attachment counter move for every attachment move, then that's. That's when you're providing the safety, actually. So if I need a certain response, I'm hoping for certain response. I've lost my balance, which actually takes the safety away from the clients. So my ability to take a deep breath, be present, and I'm fine with whatever happens, I think might be the biggest key in this moment. In touch with my own vulnerability and making that vulnerable choice. And then I got my feet on the ground. If it's a beautiful green light like we're going to talk about mostly today, fine. If it's a horrible red light, you know, it doesn't feel great, but we're ready for that. We're trained.

[A]

All right, so let's. The. You're right around. Let's direct that into the green light. And when we're saying lights here, it's just something that we kind of picked up from George about just reading. Is the caregiver clear to go through green light?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are they maybe a little bit mixed where maybe there's a little bit of mistrust, but there's also a part of them that says, wow, I really want to help you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then a red light is like their body saying, I cannot go there. I don't want. I'm really protesting this moment. What is this?

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the green light, that is a big moment because this is one we like. You could say, oh, it's green. This is great. But we gotta really be able to, in a sense, Ryan's famous words finish the mission here. So, like, some examples of green lights. What would be some examples for you, Ryan, of the person shared it? What are you looking for when you say it looks like a green light?

[B]

Yeah. I think one thing to be mindful of is, is we can tune our engines so much for problems. We can be surprised when people get it right. Right. So that can look. Stumble over that. I still think you'll. You'll catch your breath pretty quickly in the beauty. But a green light is as an open, caregiving response. It's comfort. It's comfort. So. And that's what I want to think about, especially in stage two, is this comfort contact. I've seen a few people send videos. The clients are using stage two words. But it didn't feel like comfort. It felt like a communication. It felt like a, you know, communication technique or mediation or even like cooperation. That's. I mean, I'm glad that that happens, but that's not even related to stage two. Much less is stage two. So we're looking for that comfort contact. At this point, we should see very slow pacing. People should be reaching for words. I would prefer a mostly nonverbal, caregiving response. That's how strongly I feel that I don't want this to be communication. I mean, not just communication stuff. So, yeah. So open caregiving, like, it's. It's very natural, very instinctual. Right. So when I see someone else in a vulnerable position, it's the most natural thing in the world to stop what I'm doing, move towards them at the level that they're on a R E. Be accessible, be responsive, be emotionally engaged, reach over for comfort contact. That's the green light. And I'll back up a step if that's okay with you. I want to talk about a few more details of how we get started after this break.

[A]

It's an honor for Ryan and I to get to come to you on these airwaves, to meet you, where you are, with you and your clients who are pushing the leading edge in your clinical work. And we're thankful for this opportunity and for the work that you do. And we want to invite you that if you believe in the concepts of this podcast and you find them helpful, as we do, we just invite you to be able to invest and to help keep this mission in this project going. You can support us by going on Venmo and looking for at Left Podcast. That's at le ft P O D C A S T Left Podcast and you can show your support once again. If you yourself are in a hard position or you serve maybe less resource population and therefore affects your fees, please don't worry about giving, just continue to enjoy. But if you can, we invite you to help support this mission and keep it going. Thank you so much.

[B]

Yeah, so lately George is coming in. He's such an innovator. Right. So I'll always give credit to George. I'll tell you. I'll give you a George 101. Though. A lot of folks don't know people like, where is this innovation coming from? And some of it's just from his talent. But he's got a little secret recipe. A lot of his early innovation for couples was coming from efft. He's wrestling with EFFT and doing hold me tights for years. And he's going, oh, this acronym or this approach helps me here. And. And now he's repeating this again with all his sex training. Right. So he's spending so much time trying to unpack sexual cycle, emotional cycle. It's spawning out these good ideas. So I don't know if I'm giving credit to George or taking credit away. Who cares? He doesn't listen anyway, but. But he does a good job. So he's been saying lately at. I've trained with him a lot this year and he's saying EFT is all about the caregiving system. And I'm like, it is. That is correct. So that caregiving system response so that, in other words, the responding partner, EFT is all about that. And that. Because that's what sue said from the start, right? She started her externship with. I'm about to introduce you to the most research, you know, sort of sophisticated approach to helping couples in distress. But don't forget, this is Sue's version of don't get it twisted. This is all about responsiveness and the caregiver. And that's what she'd say about eft. It's all about it's are. It's all about responsiveness. When people can be responsive to each other's inner world, it changes the culture of us. We hit the synchronicity, we start dancing to the same song. People can solve their own problems. So you can't amplify the importance of what we're talking about today. Enough. Let's be clear. The caregiving system's everywhere. It's not like this is a stage two event. We. We're just talking about it in a stage two event at this level of depth. But the caregiving system's everywhere. I did a new couple. Did a new couple. I saw a new couple yesterday. Lots of problems. Lots, lots of problems. Big breakthrough at an hour and 15 minutes. I just did an hour and a half because it's the intake and. And it's like that caregiving system opened up and it's this whole new pool of energy and resources and that. It's the good stuff. This is the good stuff that they've been starving from for years and years and years. And when it comes forward, even the look on their face is like, whoa. We had no idea that there was this much juice here. There was this much energy. So it's a beautiful thing to say. So it's all about caregiving system. The whole model is. And so we're teaching it in step six here. Stage two. I want to say this, my soapbox man. I feel like I'm repeating myself too much. But some repetition is necessary. So how do you set someone up? How do you give them the very best chance? So if Nicola James's partner is in my office and she takes a deep drop and she talks about not feeling good about who she is, talks about how scared she is to let James see. Right. So there's that fear of reaching, negative model of self as their stage two materials we're looking for. How do I give you the best chance with my invite in question? I mean, you could do 10 episodes just right here. Because what I ask you goes a long way for how you're going to answer me. Right? So if I just generally, you know, how is that? Right? I mean, there's just a thousand directions you can go with that. Or my soapbox that people use in a good eft question. Misattuned, mistimed is like, okay, James, what was that like for you? And that's going meta.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I've actually invited you a little bit away from the partner, conversely, and repeating myself here. If you, if you're a regular listener on the podcast, there's ways that you can invite James in to give James the video very best opportunity to use his instinctual caregiving system. And so I do. I, I use this sometimes, not all the time. You can't see this on the podcast, but I kind of put my hand to the side and, and over your head. Just three or four little passes here. Not in any kind of aggressive way or anything like that, but I'm just trying to say, don't go somewhere else. And I got that from Michael Barnett. I think he got it from somebody else anyway. So to me, the way to load the caregiving system when the partner's in deep vulnerability is with my hand and to say, all right, James, so right now, right here today in this room. And then I like to go somatic next. I don't want to ask about the information because I don't want an informational response. There's a pretty good chance you're going to get the answer you. The answer you ask for. So right now, right here today in this room, when you heard Nicola's voice break, when you saw that tear, there was a shaking in her voice. This is very different than normal. So I'm trying to draw your instincts forward here. Then I just like to say, what happened for your body as you heard that voice? Shaking, sadness. And so I can't emphasize that enough. Obviously, you can do your own style. If you don't like those phrases, throw it back. But I can't tell you what difference that's made in my career.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To ask for the caregiver that way, as opposed to what Was that like for you?

[A]

That's right. So I like that one because it's consistent with the research and what I mean, even us using Magda Arnold's form of emotional assembly, which you just literally did, by the way. Here's also why I like it, because I do agree with George, too. And I think maybe at times we haven't emphasized how to invite the caregiver forward. We invite so much vulnerability from someone to take a risk, to put themselves out. But then I'm like, I don't know if I've given enough credence to good, clean work with the caregiver.

[B]

I love that. James, that is so good. You just helped me right there. I'm writing this down. No, that is right on. Think about this. We spend so much time on our body, on risk voice, on learning to drop people into emotion. We're like. We're like the world experts on that. We really are.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

We really are. Even our trauma models don't spend the amount of time we do on self. Self presentation, pacing, use of self. In my biased opinion, EFT is best in the world at that, at dropping into emotion. It's what we call ourself. And then we don't spend the time on using ourself the same way to get that caregiving response. That should be the title of this whole episode.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I mean, that's a big deal, James.

[A]

I'm taking this like, you know how George picks his topics, like caregiving is mine now. I'm like, we got to get better at that.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I got to click back into the language Ryan just did. Y' all like that. If you want to work on your stage two work, and you're trying to get certified, when you go over to that six, don't go over there with a general question. You will ruin your efficiencies. Can it work for you Sometimes, Yeah. But I can go out and shoot an NBA 3 and make a few every now and then, but I'm not Steph Curry. But what Ryan just did is what a good shooter would do. Like, hey, line it up like this. Hold your elbow straight. Line up like this. So in this one, in stage two, I start looking for. Since we're talking about green lights, it has happened to me in Houston. Shout out Houston. The pursuer. When the withdrawer took a big risk, her pinky finger reached up and touched his hand on the sofa. And I saw that. I said, hey. So right here, as he takes his big risk and he puts it out in front of you, and then your pink. Your finger reaches out and touches him. What is that trying to say and do with him in this moment when he puts out this very scary version of himself? I think it's saying, like you would, that you're willing to be here and face it with him. But you tell me, what is your body saying? But you see, I'm doing so many things to primer, but Ryan's was even better. I like he. He did the somatic cue from the other partner. That's the trigger he's trying to get. This is the activating event that should wake up the caregiving system.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And then I'm a place to trigger right out in front of you vividly and somatically and call your body to respond.

[B]

There you go. Run that. Run that cue by them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I'm saying, james, focus on this, not on that.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And they need your help oftentimes because this is new territory.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's pain, there's woundedness. It's a vulnerable thing to respond to someone as well as it is to share with someone. But that point you made was so huge. I just want to say it again.

[A]

Brian is smiling really big.

[B]

If you're. If you're driving, you know, pull over or something. I'm joking. Just watch the way you're going. But. But I. I do think it's really important because, look, I'm going to sound like I'm mocking here. I don't mean to sound mocking, but I'm on a podcast, so how real can you get? I'm deepening with someone, and I remember my wrist was like, this is really hard. Of course I feel this pain. Can you feel it? Where is it in your body right now? Right. This is that deepening, that beautiful deepening that we do. Sue says when people are in this level of vulnerability, talk to them like a good mom would talk to a third grader. Right. And people mock that because they're not in that position. So it's a beautiful thing. And so again, so notice my tone and my pacing. So you're feeling it right now. Is that pressure in your body. I'm here with you. I feel the darkness of this. And then it's like, okay, so what was that like to hear?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I'm like, what? No, hold that same Risk voice, that same pacing, that same presence when you go to the caregiver and that image.

[A]

You got in that Risk moment. So, hey, they're in the pit. This is scary. Like, their hearts Even racing right now.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Call them in there. Run this in front of them. Make the target clear. This is a person who's been in a misattuned piano for all these years and now you're asking them to play Mozart. Increase the odds by shortening what you're asking them to respond to. Don't get their side of the story. Don't bring back the affect assembly out of the per of their partner. Take a simple cue over the cracking of the voice, sadness, or you know, a short phrase, something somatic. Stay in your risk voice. Ask them what happens for them as they hear about the sadness, as they see the voice, as they see that big tear drop to their shirt. What happens for your body? Right. I mean that. I just can't tell you how important that is to invite them into that in that way.

[A]

Exactly. And I want to steal from Kathryn Rehm here where she talks about you have to have deep limbic experience to have deep limbic revision. And many times when I've heard Catherine say that, I only apply it to the person taking the risk to share. But in stage two, I think the caregiver needs to have success at giving care at that deep limbic space. So that way they know they have it in them as well to be able to do this.

[B]

Yeah, here's where I'm at, James. I got three or four more notes here, but I don't want to go over them. I want the listeners to take this away. I want you to really evaluate after, after a deepening move, whatever stage you're in. But when someone has deepened for you, I really want you to evaluate your next three or four comments. Are you staying in that risk voice? Are you inviting the caregiving system at the same pacing, the same depth, with the same amount of focus that you did in your deepening? If not, make this adjustment. Watch yourself. This will change your career.

[A]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional Training and on his website ryanrenatraining.com youm can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website doc hawklpc.com.