128. Stage 2 Series: Cargeiving Cheat Code-We Don't Want Caregiving Perspectives, We Want Caregiving Responsivness

Summary

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Episode Overview

In this episode of "The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy," Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna dive into a pivotal topic for Stage 2 EFT work: the “caregiving cheat code.” The conversation zeroes in on how therapists can move beyond mere caregiving perspectives toward facilitating genuine, embodied caregiving responsiveness between partners. Using both practical strategies and vivid, emotionally resonant examples, they stress that effective caregiving requires in-the-moment vulnerability and the therapist’s skill in keeping the focus on live emotional experience.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Essence of Caregiving in EFT Stage 2

• Stage 2, Step 6 Focus: The therapeutic goal is not just to get intellectual buy-in or perspectives but to enable live, emotionally engaged caregiving responses.
• The ‘Cheat Code’: True caregiving is responsive, not just reflective. It needs to be alive, spontaneous, and rooted in the here-and-now experience (03:23).

Notable Quote

“In stage two, we're not trying to get perspectives, we're trying to get responsiveness.” — Dr. James Hawkins [00:46]

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2. The Prerequisite: Vulnerability Sets the Stage

• Vulnerability is necessary before caregiving can happen. The “cheat code” starts with ensuring live, deep vulnerability has been reached in-session (05:21).
• Analogy: Ryan uses the “Forrest Gump and Bubba” scene to highlight the sacredness and risk of showing emotional wounds to another.

Notable Moment

“I'm going to show you what I don't even like to look at ... That's intimacy in action right there.” — Dr. Ryan Reyna [05:28]

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3. Loading the Caregiving Response: Moving From Head to Body

• Therapists too often focus on getting the partner's perspective (“What was that like for you?”), which turns caregiving into a detached, intellectual exercise.
• Instead, shift to the body: Ask the caregiving partner about immediate somatic responses when witnessing their partner’s vulnerability (08:36).

Practical Steps:

• Name what is happening in the room: “Right here, right now, today ... when you heard your partner’s voice break, what happens for you right now as you hear that?”
• Guide attention to body sensations (e.g., pressure in the chest or stomach).
• Make an attachment-based conjecture: “That pressure in your chest right now, is your body trying to get you to do something for your partner?”
• Invitation to act: Just gesture toward the couple, letting them move naturally toward comfort and connection.

Notable Quote

“The mistake I made in my younger years was ... you're trying to get their perspective. Yeah, I don't want their side of the story. I want a comforting response.” — Dr. Ryan Reyna [12:38]

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4. Practical Examples & Therapist Maneuvers

• If the partner expresses the urge to hug or touch, therapist simply points or nods, facilitating, but not directing physical comfort (11:00).
• The aim is to empower natural, attachment-based caregiving responses over intellectual analysis.
• When the cycle “opens up,” move quickly (“on the clock”)—don’t process, analyze, or open new vulnerabilities, just help the caregiving happen live (15:55).

Memorable Moment

“I want to see if I can get comfort back from that caregiver inside of 60 seconds.” — Dr. Ryan Reyna [15:55]

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5. Pitfalls: Losing the Mission & Topic Hopping

• Big Mistake: Opening up the blocked caregiver’s own vulnerability too early. This shifts focus away from the partner who took the initial risk, undermining safety and responsiveness (17:44).
• “Changing Missions”: If the therapist shifts to processing the caregiver's issues in the middle of a vulnerable moment, the original sharing partner may be left without support, teaching them (inadvertently) not to risk vulnerability next time (18:46, 20:02).

Notable Insight

“The one thing really distressed couples can't do is focus. They just topic hop. And so we don't topic hop. Especially when... there’s been a deep risk.” — Dr. Ryan Reyna [19:54]

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6. If Caregiving Gets Blocked

• Therapists have a brief window (around one minute) to try and unblock the caregiver—using the body-based approach first.
• If that’s not possible, don’t force it or redirect vulnerability; instead, scale down expectations for that day or regroup (20:32–21:02).

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7. Summary and Final Guidance

• The central cheat code: Use the body’s wisdom. People know instinctively how to respond to distress; therapy should clear the path for those responses, not overcomplicate.
• Keep interventions “slow and low and simple and concise” during these moments; let bonding happen naturally (21:01–21:16).

Notable Quote

"The body already knows how to bond, so ... we’re just using something slow and low and simple and concise in these moments. If at all possible, there's the cheat code. Use the body." — Dr. Ryan Reyna [21:02]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:46] — Introduction of the episode’s focus: caregiving responsiveness, not perspectives
• [03:23] — Stage 2 in EFT and setting up for caregiving
• [05:21] — Forrest Gump analogy: vulnerability and emotional wounds
• [08:36] — Loading the caregiving response and avoiding perspective-taking
• [10:40–12:38] — Practical somatic-based prompts for therapists
• [15:55] — Time sensitivity: aiming for comfort within 60 seconds
• [17:44] — Mistakes when blocks arise: why not to shift to caregiver’s vulnerability mid-process
• [20:02–20:32] — The dangers of topic-hopping and staying on mission
• [21:02–21:16] — Final summary: let bonding happen through the body

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Tone & Language

Throughout, the hosts’ tone is practical, warm, and direct—mirroring the balance between clinical acumen and authentic emotional engagement that they advocate for in therapy itself. Their humor, humility (“Trust me, that block, I’ve never had that blocked”), and use of vivid imagery invite therapists into the brave work of facilitating real, bodily, in-the-moment connection.

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This episode is a masterclass in harnessing the healing potential of live, somatic, emotionally focused caregiving. Therapists are urged to trust human instincts for connection and to get out of the way—using their skill not to explain, but to guide and protect the invaluable opportunity for genuine, responsive intimacy.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, I'm excited about a new EFT venture, Hampton Roads. EFT is a relatively new EFT community and they are going to launch with my help, hopefully, September 15th through the 18th first externship in Virginia Beach, Virginia. That's September 15th through the 18th, 2026. There's a rumor this may be the first externship ever that literally has a view of the ocean. But anyway, it'll be close to the ocean. I've not seen the place, but it's going to be awesome. It may be a smaller group and it's always cool to get to be a part of a launch, so we'd love to invite you people. You know, colleagues will have discounts for repeaters. We'd love to see you in Virginia Beach September 15th through the 18th, 2026 for their first Externship.

[B]

All right, we're still back in our stage two series, except today what we're going to be talking about is the caregiving cheat code. Because in stage two, we're not trying to get perspectives, we're trying to get responsiveness.

[C]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Chapter Johnson.

[B]

Indeed. Glad to be back with you all. Ryan and I have definitely been busy on the road. Some of you we've been spending time with in your communities. And then we have the trainers retreat and definitely an honor to get to see, you know, what the board is doing and their vision for the future and to hear about EFT around the world. I think what the update was is in the. In the last year or so, there's been like, EFT trainings in over 80 different countries. I don't know if that's even. Yeah, yeah. 80 different countries. That says a lot about Sue's vision and the model and her and the executive board's leadership to push it forward. So that's cool. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Keeps rolling, man. Keeps rolling. Lots of talent in that. In that trainer room.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

[A]

Lots of diversity, too.

[B]

And as always, Ryan and I like to start with thank yous. Thank you to you. As therapists, I got to be in Shout out to Bend, Oregon. Got to be there with them. And I guess my thank you is to one just the amazing community leaders in their hearts to see a need in their community. Because even for I just want to give Edward Yu a shout out, the leader there, for him to say, you know what? I care about the couples in my community, and I care about the therapists. This model speaks to me so much, and for them to have that kind of vision. So just thank you to the community leaders who help train therapists to be better therapists for the clients in their community.

[A]

Yeah. I'll join you with a thank you. Our topic today is caregiving. And the first caregiver is us. Right? So we're trying to make caregiving contagious to do that. I mean, half the battle is modeling this. So. And that takes from you, that's something that you have to give your energy to. So I want to say thank you to all the folks listening, how you use your emotional energy, your spiritual energy, even to. To. To be with people and then to model that caregiving system. It takes work, and it's. It's sacred work. Thank you.

[B]

All right, so let's reset on the topic here, Ryan. We're talking about the caregiving cheat code. And particularly, let me make sure I'm being. We're still in our stage two series, so we're in stage two, step six. And step six is about promoting partner acceptance of the revealed. Not just the fear, but the negative view of self. And, you know, I don't know if this nuance matters or not. It's not just I'm accepting, like, yeah, you're. You're not enough, or you believe you're not enough. But what I am accepting is my role as a potential caregiver is that I'm willing to bring care. When you have that battle in your life, when those messages, when those fears come up, I am willing to be, or get Sue's words, I will be, are with you. I, you know, I'm accessible, responsive, and willing to be emotionally engaged. But as we talk about the cheat code, what are you thinking about when you say cheat code?

[A]

Ryan, I want to go back to something you said before me and my images come to mind.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Just came to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, Forrest Gump. You seen that movie?

[B]

Yeah. I did not know that's where you're gonna go.

[A]

Exactly. I didn't either. This is by random brain.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

But it's not. 1994 was that movie. I like that movie. Like a lot of movies. Top. Top Gun, Forrest Gump, they're all about grief, right? And that's a grief movie. And his best friend, Bubba, remember this scene, was killed in Vietnam. Close to my heart. My dad was a Vietnam vet. And there's a scene where. It's a sad scene where Bubba has, I guess, taken what ends up being a fatal wound. And he's laying on the ground and he has it covered up with like a big leaf or something, like fern, it looks like. And. And Forrest goes back and finds him, and then you see him lift up the leaf to say, all right, here's the wound. That's what I think about when. When you talk about coming out of step five to step six. It's like you're this sacred person. Enough in my life, maybe the only person I'm going to show this part of me.

[B]

Wow, that. That's a good image, right? Because I mean, that is essence of vulnerability is I'm open to the possibility of being wounded.

[A]

No doubt. I'm going to show you what I don't even like to look at.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And that's intimacy in action right there.

[B]

And that's.

[A]

We're not talking about intimacy.

[B]

We're doing it now, Ryan. That's exactly now. I don't know what you would say is the cheat code, but I think that is the cheat code. I cannot expect a caregiver. Well, I shouldn't say can't. Well, I'm say it strong and we'll clean it up. But I would say, yeah, I can't really expect a caregiver to show up when there's no need for the caregiver. So the first thing to me, the cheat code for the caregiving response is there has to be vulnerability in the room. So that's why your step 5 work. It really matters. It needs to be alive and experiential. So that way the listening partner or care who's in the caregiving role, their body needs to be invited into an opportunity for them to show up. This is not an intellectual discussion. It's not a debate about their past life. It's saying even right now, I feel afraid to let you see this part of me right now where I'm even believing I'm a failure. I'm too much, I'm a monster. So first, first key, we'll say today that first cheat. No thing to the cheat code of the caregiving is the vulnerability that's in the room. That's when they come to mind.

[A]

Definitely. No doubt. No doubt. And you did that so well, James. Even now, if you get that, if you get the deepening work so deep it's down below the cycle, you definitely increase your odds of a healthy caregiving response. Not a guarantee you Know, and for me, just backing up a step a little bit, the stages are important between sessions, but in session, I'm going to operate with what we have there. Like, I have an idea. Hey, this is where we might be. Got to be open, got to attune and even backwards. You know, if I'm in session seven, session eight, which is very much stage one, but we're working this depth. I'm thinking similar thoughts around caregiving. So just, just so you know, I'm not overly structuring this thing. We're never guaranteed there'll be a next session. Right. So we got to make hay when we got it. So. So we're talking about stage two. But it goes wherever it goes. And no doubt the deepening piece and making it present here and now is key. The. The cheat code for me. And so the cheat code for me actually though, is loading the caregiving response. And this is, that's the way I teach it at training. So if you've, if you're listening and you've trained with me, I don't know, you might remember this or you might not, but this is stolen from sue and George Fowler. I just say if there's ever a cheat code in eft, here it is. And what I mean is we're on mission now. Okay. We have really, really deep reaching from the enacting partner. And then when you go to the caregiver to promote acceptance, to promote presence, to get a comforting response, you're much more likely to get it if you really are in stage two. But you never know. Sometimes people have done a great job. Comforting, comforting. Showing up are through stage one. But then like, I lift the fern back on a deep part of me and people can freeze.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's pretty normal. But my job is to keep the focus on the sender, the enactor. That's what's key. Because it's very, very easy to catch a block from your caregiver, your responding partner, and change your mission. And I see that so often. James, I know you do too. I'm not going to say it's deadly, but it's not good. So we don't want to change missions. Once someone is jumped off, jumped out of the plane, we're going to do our best work to get them caught. Okay. And so the cheat code for me is going to the responding partner and staying very efficiently. So instead of saying, hey, what's that like for you? Which goes meta. Definitely don't want to do that. The way you invite the caregiver in is, you know, so right here, right now, today, I like to go somatic. When you heard your partner's voice break when you saw that big tear, you could even say, there's something very different about how they said this today. So what happens for you right now as you hear that voice crack? So, see, it's an invitation in. And what I really am looking for is for the responding partner to say, I felt like a pressure in my chest or I felt like something in the stomach. And the cheat code is to not even go process that anymore just to say, so that pressure in your chest right now, is your body trying to get you to do something. Your body's trying to mobilize to show up for your partner? Sadness. What do you think your body's trying to get you to do? There's the cheat code. So the presupposition is that that body marker sensation, when you see your partner go raw and vulnerable, you feel something in your torso, and that's your attachment instinct. So I'm not telling the client this. I'm going to keep it simple for them. But. So that sensation in your chest right now, is your body trying to get you to do something. What do you think your body is trying to get you to do for your partner? Sadness.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And they usually say something like, I want to hug them.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Or I want to touch them. Or I want to reassure them. And I'm like. And I just put. I just point my head, my hand out at that point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is to say, go ahead. And then they're always like, right now I'm like, you said it.

[B]

I wish I could see. Right. You said it.

[A]

Yeah. That's not me. I don't ever tell people to touch each other in session, but I sure want to facilitate it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that is. That is instinctual. And to me, this is all about returning people, redeeming people back to their instincts. Because humans know how to bond the cycle. And life has taught them not to.

[B]

Now, that's a very humanistic. I like that. Humans know how to bond.

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

The cycle teaches them that bonding is.

[A]

A survival instinct on both sides. To caregiver when someone's vulnerable and to reach out vulnerably to receive caregiving or instinctual wired into our DNA. So when it's happening, live, let it happen. That's all my job is. So when instinctual stuff starts to happen, I just want to facilitate. That's why I don't say where. I just hold my hand out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Then they start to hug. And sometimes like, this happened to me yesterday. Tough session. I'm 32 minutes in. I'm like, oof, it's not good. Not glad this isn't on video. And then we hit it. We hit a lick, you know, minute 36, we have a turn, and now they're standing up in my office hugging each other for a long time. I mean, I got awkward at some point, should I step out here? But as they. The longer they hug, then the emotion comes in. They're like shaking, crying, holding each other. I'm like, okay, so this is. This is what this is supposed to look like. Right. But anyway, back to the cheat code is to load the care, the instinctual, caregiving response in the body and a question that converts it over to behavior. And the mistake I made in my younger years was to go to them. And it's like you're trying to get their perspective. Yeah, I don't want their side of the story. I want a comforting response.

[B]

That's right. So I want to go back. I don't want to overly complicate. I think what you just. That sequence you gave is a game changer. So I want to make sure listeners get it. So let's go back to like Ryan called. The cheat code first is reset the vulnerability in the room when you go over. So Ryan. And also he cut off all the other discussion already with the way he said it right here, right now, today, not what happened five years ago or where it went sideways last week. Right here, right now. So that's even time limiting. He's resetting them, and then he reset them to a cue in the other partner that would hopefully, if you believe in mirror neurons, you know, if you believe like. So right now, as you see your partner's tear and how hard this is, that they're even afraid to let this become something that seen. So that's one reloading it. What's happening in your body right now as you see their tear?

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And the key part, I like that Ryan kept saying, he keeps loading it. It's almost like he's treating their somatic or the other, the sender. He's treating that like a live trigger in the room right now. Can you look at it? Can you see their eyes right now as you see it? And you heard them say, I just believe I'm a horrible failure. What does that do in your body as you see their tear? So that's the key part.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So then he asked about what's happening in their Body, just a somatic marker. Then after you get your somatic marker, you in a sense go ahead and put it into an empathic type conjecture almost in a way, because it's my guess is right now, that's your body, by the way. This is what this almost like a positive form of cpr. So good. Look at that. What brilliant timing. That right when your partner goes to a sad place, you feel pressure in your chest. Because what my guess is that pressure in your chest is your body saying something happened and is wanting you to do something on your partner's behalf. So he seeds it in a conjecture. Because they could correct Ryan, but they never have. That's right.

[A]

My entire career. And I don't even, I don't even say my guess is okay, you just say it. I'm going to go ahead and make the attachment assumption.

[B]

I'll take that.

[A]

And they can always decline it. But this is, this is what they're paying me for.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And yeah.

[B]

And by the way, it is stage two. So Ryan has a pretty. He's already seen them do this dance maybe 100 times by now. So he's not making this up and like trying to fake them into something. He's just, he. What he really is. He's doing what he's. He's being the attachment decoder in the room and just making it so y', all, I want you to hear this.

[A]

He's.

[B]

He's just trying to make it so darn explicit. Yeah, what he's. What you really did right in there is you're putting their body in a bind to have to like, if they're going to block you or escape, they're going to have to work at it.

[A]

They are.

[B]

Which is good though.

[A]

And I'm doing that because I invited their partner to jump.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So if so I'm going to. I'm going to make it really, really hard for them not to at least give something they don't have to get it perfect. And we can get into list of contingencies of what we're going to do depending on how blocked they are. But I think sometimes we get so block oriented we don't know what. We fumble when it's open. And so for me, in an ideal world, I got someone bleeding out over there. I'm on the clock. I want to see if I can get comfort back from that caregiver inside of 60 seconds.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

So if I start talking to them and unpacking and getting perspectives and what was that, like, for you? Well, it's this. Well, it's kind of that. Well, this happened last. Like, gross. I want to give it a shot to say what happens in your body when you hear I love. I like. My favorite somatic cue is to say, did you notice that their voice cracked? This is different.

[B]

Oh, I like that.

[A]

When. When you heard that different sound come out and the suffering of how dark this is for your partner. What did you feel right here today? I felt pressure in my stomach. Let's play it. As soon as they say that, I want to play it immediately.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

If they can that pressure, I'm going to make a conjecture. That pressure in your stomach is your body trying to get you to do something. What do you think your body's trying to get you to do right now? I've never been blocked on that. I've been blocked at everything else in the world. Trust me, that block, I've never had that blocked. And the answer is almost always attachment gold. I want to touch them. I want to be with them. I want to reassure with them. I want to fight for them. And I just. Then I just point my hand. Let's go. Roll it. We're in the attachment channel.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So be instinctual right now.

[B]

That's right. So one. I love that. Thank you for clearing that up. But then also listen to what Ryan said about, like, let's say if there is some block in the caregiving. I like the fact of. I've also heard Michael Press, another EFT supervisor. He talks about, you are on the clock. At that moment, the person over there is bleeding out. They can only bleed for so long before you say, you know what?

[A]

You.

[B]

You can't respond. I gotta put a tourniquet in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that's one good thing. And then what Ryan said that I want y' all to catch is even when you're trying to unblock the caregiver, you need to be very, very careful about opening up a new exploration into their vulnerability.

[A]

No exploration of new until you finish what you started.

[B]

And then also, I want you to be very cautious about this. I don't want to say never, but it's a really hard spot to if. Now, if you go to the caregiver who's supposed to be responding to the partner you just asked to jump. Now you go bring up their vulnerability, and then you ask the other partner who's bleeding out to respond to the caregiver who's blocked. That gets really weird. So let me make sure I Say that again. I saw Ryan's face. Some people try and clear that block by going to the caregiver of something like, so what happens for you right here? Well, I'm just so frustrated. They never talk to me like this and I'm always left on the outside. And what's that been? And then they start going to. And what's that been like for you when you've been on the outside and they start a whole new temp orientation. And then the next move is they're going to put that caregiver into some enactment of. It's just really hard for me when I never get to hear these parts of you. And then they're going to ask the other person who just took a jump to say, can you respond to that?

[A]

It happens all the time, y'. All.

[B]

That's a. If they. It can happen, but that's a big jump.

[A]

Well, and here's the problem. If I change missions in the middle, I just watched a certification video where this happened and I still agree that because it was. It was so good. But it was missed. At the very first of the. Of the session, one person was in deep tears, which triggered the other person. Their caregiver goes into deep tears. Therapist changed mission. When they changed mission, they did a beautiful job. So I'm like, I think that's pretty good. Eft. In fact, there was hardly anything I would change, which is saying a lot. The problem. The problem is the initial person who was in tears is now only. Only able to care give. In other words, no one showed up for them. So he's inadvertently taught them not to share. Then you can rebuild your bond sideways. That happens a lot. Sometimes it's the partner who has the most shame, or sometimes it's the pursuer. And they kind of gang up to say, we're just going to make sure this person gets their needs met. And I'm like, that's out of balance. That's going to fall over on itself like a shed without good wall without good support. Right. And so it's key because this is, as we say on here a lot, the one thing really distressed couples can't do is focus. They just topic hop. And so we don't topic up. Especially when. When we. There's been a deep risk.

[B]

I want to almost pin that as a possible comeback for an episode. Sideways, out of balance. Alliance. Alliance. That's a good one.

[A]

It is a good one. It's hard sometimes. I have a lot of clients who are like, let's just get this one person needs met, we'll be happy. I'm like, and sometimes that can be the, quote, addict, sometimes that can be the pursuer. But a secure bond can go both, both ways. Both people can share their heart. Both people can respond when their partner does.

[B]

So I don't know if we need to belabor this, if you got more on this, but I think just that one little segment about keeping that clean, and even if there is a block, you got about one minute to try and rework it, then you probably say, well, what happens if you can't rework the block? That's where, you know, that's where I'll go back to the ditch enactment episode. That's probably where we're going to say, what can you do for today? You know, that kind of thing. You know, it's just been too long, too hard. I see it, but I just can't today. Could you say that much?

[A]

Yeah, that's still better than nothing.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

End of the day. The cheat code, though, is to use the body. The body already knows how to bond, so. So we're just using something slow and low and simple and concise in these moments. If at all possible, there's the cheat code. Use the body.

[B]

All right, y'. All. And that's it. Thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the leading edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and on his website, ryanrenatraining. Com. You can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at the Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website, doc hawklpc.com.