129. Stage 2 Series-Hesitation and Mixed Signals in Step 6-Yellow Lights

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Episode: 129. Stage 2 Series – Hesitation and Mixed Signals in Step 6 – Yellow Lights
Date: November 11, 2025
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina

This episode delves into the nuanced work of Stage 2, Step 6 in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), with a focus on identifying and responding to "yellow lights" — moments of hesitation or mixed signals from the caregiving partner during pivotal therapeutic exchanges. The hosts explore why these moments arise, how to recognize them, and practical strategies for therapists to transform these “almost there” responses into meaningful, attuned connection. The tone is warm, supportive, and practical, speaking both to the technical and emotional demands on EFT therapists.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Are "Yellow Lights"?

• Definition: Yellow lights are partially open, hesitant, or mixed responses from the caregiver partner, not fully closed (red) but not deeply attuned (green) either (09:36).
• Common Example: After a partner vulnerably reveals feelings of shame or failure, the caregiving partner might respond positively but miss the mark emotionally (e.g., “I don’t want you to feel that way,” instead of, “I’m here with you in this feeling”).

2. The Impact of Yellow Lights

• Missing the Moment: Even well-intentioned reassurances can reinforce isolation if the vulnerability is not directly met.
• Attachment Implications: If a partner deals with their shame alone—even successfully—they’re still “having to get rid of some of their needs” in the relationship (05:01-06:54).
• EFT Aim: The goal is to move couples towards “green light” moments of co-regulation, which create lasting connection and validate deep needs.

3. Recognizing and Responding to Yellow Lights

• Recognize: Understand that “I don’t want you to feel that way” or efforts to reframe without deep attunement reflect partial but not full responsiveness (08:34-09:36).
• Respond: Instead of being thrown off, use curiosity and validation to gently redirect to deeper emotional presence:
  • Dr. Hawkins: "Even though you don’t see them that way, would you be willing to be with them when these feelings come up, so they don’t have to be alone with it?" (08:50-09:36)
  • Dr. Raina: "Of course you don’t [want them to feel that way]. Why do you not want them to feel that way?” which draws out care and love (11:01).

4. Techniques and Clinical Strategies

• Reframing the Yellow Light:
  • Avoid over-explaining; use efficient validation and gentle, targeted questions.
  • Instead of “why?” (“Why do you feel that way?”), frame questions to elicit emotion and presence, not storytelling (09:36-11:50).
• Facilitate Co-Regulation:
  • Pass the comforting, accepting message across: “It’s ok for you to feel that way in my presence. You don’t have to hide it from me, and when those thoughts come for you, I’ll stand right next to you” (12:52-13:03).
• Navigate Confusion or Disorientation:
  • Disorientation is common, especially in withdrawals when confronted with a pursuer’s hidden vulnerability—normalize, validate, and gently help the caregiving partner articulate and grow their caring response (13:18-15:29).
• Practical Tip: “My job’s to see if we can get it green today.” Use validation, presence, and a back-and-forth exploration of protective and longing parts to foster growth.

5. Therapist Self-care

• Emotional Labor: Both hosts stress how demanding this work can be (“the emotional rubber coming off the tires”) (02:12).
• Well-being: “Please, I want to encourage you…do things that…help you be connected with yourself and with nature…and please have a community of people that you love that love you” (02:12-02:49).
• Memorable Advice: “Never try to save money on tires, shoes, or mattresses…you’re going to spend most of your time on those three” – a light moment connecting therapist self-care with basic life wisdom (02:49-02:59).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Therapist Readiness:

  “When you can ground yourself in that to say whatever comes up, I’ve got an attuned sort of counter move, that’s when you start to do eft…Until that day, you’re not really present.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, (01:45)

• On Reassurance vs. Presence:

  “When you start trying to reassure them of the positive without recognizing it, you are almost reinforcing the very message…Because then once again, even if you don’t see them that way, they are then left alone to wrestle with those negative.”
  — Dr. James Hawkins, (03:42-04:53)

• On Recognizing Yellow Lights:

  “If a therapist doesn’t recognize, oh, that’s a yellow light, not a green light…green light is completely open and responsive. Yellow light is partially open mix. Red light is, I’m closed.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, (09:36-11:50)

• On Co-Regulation:

  “If I can co-regulate with you now, your autocoregulation is effective because you’re not having to do a cutoff…That’s the beauty of what Sue really gave to the world, is that truth.”
  — Dr. Ryan Raina, (05:01-06:54)

• The Ultimate Green Light:

  “It’s okay for you to feel that way in my presence. You don’t have to hide it from me. And when those thoughts come for you, I’ll stand right next to you. I’ll be right with you.”
  — Dr. James Hawkins, (12:52-13:03)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:11 – Introduction to the “yellow light” phenomenon with caregiving partners
• 04:53 – How reassurances can inadvertently leave the partner alone
• 05:01 – 06:54 – In-depth reflection on co-regulation and its significance in EFT
• 08:34 – Most common “yellow light” (“I don’t want you to feel that way”)
• 09:36 – Practical approaches for redirecting yellow lights to green
• 11:01 – Example language for deepening the emotional exchange
• 12:52 – 13:03 – The ideal caregiver message (“It’s okay for you to feel that way in my presence…”)
• 13:18 – 15:29 – Managing confusion and disorientation in caregiving responses

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Style and Tone

• Supportive and Honest: The hosts openly reflect on therapist vulnerabilities, the emotional toll of the work, and their ongoing learning.
• Pragmatic and Encouraging: Offers practical, digestible advice for handling common, tricky moments in EFT.
• Relatable: Sprinkled with metaphors, humor, and personal stories to humanize the process.

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Takeaway Message

"Yellow lights" are an expected and essential part of the EFT process—moments when the caregiving partner isn’t quite attuned but is still engaged. Effective therapists don’t panic or label these as failures; instead, they use targeted, validating interventions to gently move toward deeper connection. Therapist self-care and community are vital for maintaining this work on the “leading edge,” both personally and professionally.

“Your work matters. You’re changing lives. Don’t give up.”
— Dr. Ryan Raina, (16:11)

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Transcript

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Hey, I'm excited once again to promote an upcoming externship with a relatively new EFT community, the Hampton Roads EFT community. We're going to launch their first ever externship. It should be small, intimate, and fun. September 15th through the 18th, 2026. It will be on the beach. The Virginia Beach Boardwalk, to be specific. So Virginia Beach, September 15th to the 18th, 2026 externship with me. Would love to see you there. We'll have discounts for returners.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, we're still in our stage two series, except now we're still in step six, and we're going to be talking about hesitations and mixed signals from the caregiving side of the track. Of the tracks.

[Podcast Narrator]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, here we go. Back in stage two, this septus time. Step Stage two, step six, and what we've been talking a lot about, green lights, but now we're going to talk about kind of like that yellow light when you go over to the person who's supposed to be in that caregiving, responsive mode. And it's not that they're like, mad or frustrated, it's just they have some hesitancy, some maybe a little bit of mistrust and even kind of maybe what looks like positive signals, but it's not so well attuned to the vulnerability of the other partner.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But before we get to that, thank yous.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yep.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You want to go ahead.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I was just going to thank you for being ready. That's your job to be ready for anything. And when you can ground yourself in that to say whatever comes up, I've got a. I've got an attuned sort of counter move. That's when you start to do eft because until that day, you're not really present. So. So that's a sacrifice that you make to be ready for anything. So thank you for that sacrifice.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's good, man. I just. I'm going to say thank. I'm going to say ditto to that. Seriously.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That. I've said that one in different ways. I talk about the emotional rubber coming off the tires every now and then. I just had to buy a new set of tires, but it's like, for safety sake. But it's like yeah, sometimes it takes a load on us as therapists. So please, I want to encourage you. Ryan does it here for us. You need to be doing your physical health, working out, eating well, do things that, like, find ways to get away and get quiet and meditate and be connected with yourself and with nature and. And please have a community of people that you love, that love you, that can just. That care about you as a person, not about what you do for them. I think we as helpers need to have those spaces.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

So my grandpa used to say, never try to save money on tires, shoes or mattresses.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I was good with him on the first two.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

He's like, you're gonna spend most of your time on those three. That's right. That's the same thing you're saying in terms of self care and all that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So I've learned my lesson.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Me too. Me too. Hard lessons.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, so here we are back in stage two now. So some examples, what we're going to be talking about is kind of like miss, not, say, missed mixed responses. So, for example, in stage two, when after you've done your step five and the partners revealed their, Their. Their negative view of self, and maybe sometimes that attachment fear associated with that. Now sometimes the partner who's been listening, they might not respond necessarily like, oh, gosh, that just kind of like. It makes me feel the sadness in my gut for you.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That just makes me want to comfort you. This response is going to sound a little bit like, well, yeah, but I don't see you like that. Well, I don't want you to feel this way. I've never thought of you like that. I don't see you that way. There's so much good that you do. It's almost like trying to reassure. But if you don't catch it on the other side, think about what the other person just shared. Because the essence of what they just shared is in these moments when I've tried my very best and it hasn't worked over and over again, what's really going on for me inside is I begin to believe I'm a failure. And because I'm a failure, no one would want me in this kind of place, or I'm too much here. And then when you start trying to reassure them of the positive without recognizing it, you are almost reinforcing the very message. Just look at yourself in this light. This is the light in which you're lovable or how I see you. Because then once again, even if you don't see them that way, they are then left alone to wrestle with those negative. That negative yourself and their partner can't just move towards that with them.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Or even another one is even sometimes I would say, well, I'll let Ryan talk about pursuer tears.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

All right, well, hang on, I want to go back because something you said is really important. This is, you could do a series of episodes just on this one point. Because autoregulation, self regulation and co regulation, they're on the same spectrum. They're not enemies like we like to do in philosophy. Right. I mean all of us are going to do some of both, hopefully, you know, so, you know, if you think about edtronics research, you know, 50, 60% of the time a human can auto regulate and self soothe and it's fine as long as there's that sort of magical 30 to 40% where we co regulate and those two should go together. We talked about that on the differentiation episode. All that I do want to add here though. If my partner is in deep shame and I do with a lot of western culture, I don't know, maybe, maybe all culture can mess this up and I decide not to care. Again, be like, this is your issue, you need to go deal with that. And even if they can, let's say they have incredible whatever coping skills or, you know, I don't. Whatever they do, even if they can do that, they still have had to get rid of some of their needs. They still have to get rid of some of their presence to auto regulate. So even though it can, it can sort of quote work, it still has consequences back in their relationship when done too often. So I think that's a really important point, man. But, but the opposite's not true. If I can co regulate with you now, you're auto regulation and is effective because you're not having to do a cut off, as Murray Bowen used to say, you're not having to get rid of anything now. You're now your self regulation that you're going to do tomorrow. You can feel my presence with you. Right. And I think that's the beauty of what sue really gave to the world, is that truth. So anyway, that's off to a side topic there, but it's an important one.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That is an important one, Ryan. I circled that. That's going to be another future episode too.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Okay.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All the forms of regulation, how they work together.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. I was at the trainers retreat a couple weeks ago and I was talking to Jeff from. Where is he from? Belgium. Yeah. And he was, he listens to us sometimes and he goes, you. You know, you're a jock. I'm like, I know, I know. He's like, you're always using sports metaphors, but for me, it's always music metaphors. And I'm like, I'm jealous. I wish I had more music metaphors. So here goes one. I can play maybe three songs on the piano. Not well, like, really basic stuff. Okay, so. But I. Even at a basic novice like me, if I'm hitting those keys, I don't care if it's I dropped my dolly in the dirt or whatever. Whatever those little silly songs are, I learned to play as a little boy. I took, like, one lesson. Even then, if I hit that key and it's off, it's like. It's like that one key is out of tune. I mean, it just, like the whole room goes, ooh, Right? And you don't have to be a professional like Jeff or somebody to go like, oh, that has a little bit off. And that's what a yellow light is. You know, we're in this rhythm of attaching, and it's like someone shares and drops, and you're like, hey, so right here, right now, today, when you hear their voice break, what'd you feel in your body? Right. And they give you a yellow light. And that's the norm that you should expect because that's the majority of responses through eft, especially in stage one, sometimes showing up in stage two. The most common yellow light in the world, I think, is I don't want them to feel that way.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And it's usually said with empathy. Like, I felt the comforting, caregiving instinct coming forward, but the language was confusing. You say, I don't want you to feel that way is not the same as, I'm with you.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's it.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So I don't know how you converted. I'll give mine away, and you can tell me what you would do. Usually when I hear that, it used to throw me off, but now I'm like, wow. So thank you. Because what I think I'm seeing is. Is even right now, as they're showing this, you're someone that can see something different. But maybe even what's more important to me is you're also. Your body's showing me you're willing to be here with them. Am I. Am I getting there? Am I close? Because even though. Even though you don't see them that way, this is the message that comes for them, and they've had to fight it alone, I guess. Even though you don't see them. But would you be willing when they face this message, are you someone who is willing to be with them, though, when they face it, even if. Though you don't see them like that, that they don't have to be alone with it. And that's how I gently try to redirect.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

I mean, that's fine. I mean, here's the weird thing I'm going to say. I don't really care. I just, I want the therapist to know what we're doing and then, and then let your attunement and creativity just what you just did, you just reframe that. Right? So, so just where, where it does bother me is if a therapist doesn't recognize, oh, that's a yellow light, not a green light. And green light is completely open and responsive. Yellow light is partially open mix. Red light is. I'm closed. Right. So we just to reintroduce that. But if this couple is here and paying me to say we want closeness, we want to have a better relationship, then my job is to try to help people go green every time. And so that's what's most important to me is a therapist recognizes. Okay, that's a little yellow. Let me see if I can distill that to see if I can get it to go green. So for me, and again, in these moments, and this is somewhat ironic because I'm a Chatty Cathy, I use way too many words. As you know from this podcast. In this moment, though, I need to sacrifice that. I want to be as efficient as possible. So the word why is not very good in therapy. An assessment maybe, but once we're in therapy, why. If I say, why do you feel that way, James, you're out of here. You're going to go give me stories, which I don't want in these moments. This is the exception, though. Sometimes people look at their partner and with tons of empathy and like, it's on, like, this is good. Then they're like, I don't want you to feel that way. It couldn't be better at the main level of communication. But it's 10% off, meaning the words are screwy. The words are screwy. So I just go, of course you don't. Of course it breaks your heart to see your partner hurting. And so then I just say, why do you not want them to feel that way? And they often say, because I love them. And I point my hand. So I like that. As simple as possible. So a validation, a little bit of conjecture. And why don't you want them to feel that way. And it's usually. Yeah. How much I care or because I love them. They're still my person. I just point my hand to say. And act it back.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right. And what I like. And then what I usually would do, probably to clean. That's me. Maybe I fight for it too much. So hold on a second. As they reveal a place of it to you, right here, right now, where they don't even believe that they're lovable. They're not doubting you. This is the message that's come for them in life, that they believe that they, in this place, they're unlovable. Even right there, you're saying you love them. So I still want it to be tied to that. Even in the place. It is a counteracting message.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

And so for that one, that's relatively simple. I don't. I don't see that one. But. But, you know, only time I ever see that go wrong is. Is when the therapist just sort of misses it and. And thinks it's green. Right. Because I don't want you to feel that way. Is not comfort.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

No, it's not.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Remember little Jimmy? He's laying on the playground bleeding. I don't want mom or the caretaker to run over and say, hey, little Jimmy, I don't want you to feel this way. I want mom to be present and comforting and soothing. Right. That's what. That's what couples have lost the ability to do.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And it is particularly stage two, is it's okay for you to feel that way in my presence. You don't have to hide it from me. And when those thoughts come for you, I'll stand right next.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

There you go.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I'll be right with you.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

There's your caregiver. Green light right there.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. That's what we ultimately want them to be able to say. So the other person now knows. This is why it restructures the bond. Because now it's like, wait, even the parts of me I believe were unlovable can be loved. Oh, well, the game just changed there. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

Yeah. Beautiful. So, yeah, that's that most. That super, super thin yellow light. But we want you to see it as a yellow light. And then yellow lights grow a little bit into, like, disorientation, confusion. Right. Not necessarily mad, not necessarily closed, but just a little bit of, like, I don't understand, you know, especially from a withdrawer's position. Because pursuers for years can sometimes act like they have all the answers. They pretend to be confident. They're the therapist, they're the fixer. They've read all the books, right? And then they find out actually they hate themselves. And they have a vicious, vicious, negative model of self, inner critic, which is almost always true of a strident pursuer. And so then the withdrawer is like, what the hell? Like what? What? And that's a yellow light. That's right, because they probably are feeling something, but they're also feeling confusion and disorientation. So what do we do then? Right. Again, it's up to you now. It's your art, but just the main thing. Recognize. It's yellow. My job's to see if we can get it green today. And so for me, I'm old school now. I want to. I want to move towards this with lots of validation and presence, knowing that I am on the clock here. So I don't want to start a new mission, but I do want to see if I can make space for the protected version of them and the longing version of them. You might go back and forth. Do we use the word parts or versions? We're going to have an episode on this coming up. I'm excited about it. All new stuff here that I didn't learn until two weeks ago. So there you go. But there's a version of them that is like, I don't know that I can trust this. What is this? I've heard nothing but criticism for 24 years, and now I'm hearing that you're the one who's not feeling bad. I thought I was the one who wasn't good. Right. So that can. It can be disorienting. So I want to find a way to go back and forth a few times between that protected part and that and that more longing part. And usually if you do that well, it's an attuned place, then the longing part will grow. And then when the longing part grows, I want to. I want to pass that comforting message over.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, then. Well, I. I don't want to help bloat this episode up. I think that gets right to the point of it. Y', all, we're glad to be back with you. Thank you for being patient in our hiatus while we were on the road, but once again, thank you for just joining us on this mission, you know, because once again, it's not about me and Ryan. This. This podcast, you all. I want to make sure I say thank you to the listeners you all have pushed us with, the way, the questions you ask when we get to meet you in person, when we hear how you're applying this episode. It keeps pushing us to stay on our leaning, our leading edge of learning and also I feel like it's helping me once again keep hanging out on my part my clients leading edges with them so that way they can grow and learn too. So thank you for all that y' all are doing.

[Dr. Ryan Raina]

We appreciate you. Your work matters. You're changing lives. Don't give up.

[Podcast Narrator]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and on his website ryanrenatraining. Com. You can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website dochawklpc.com.