130. Stage 2 Mini Series-Caregiver Nightmares: Navigating Red-Light Reactions to Vulnerability

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 130: Stage 2 Mini Series—Caregiver Nightmares: Navigating Red-Light Reactions to Vulnerability
Date: November 24, 2025
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins (C), Dr. Ryan Reyna (A)
Special thanks and references to other EFT supervisors and trainers (notably Sue Johnson, George Fowler, Leanne, Kerry Lucas)

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Episode Overview

This episode launches a miniseries within the Stage 2 series, focusing specifically on the worst-case scenarios in couples therapy using Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT): so-called "Caregiver Nightmares," when red-light reactions occur. The hosts discuss practical strategies for therapists encountering clients who withdraw, criticize, or otherwise react negatively (with “red-light” responses) to their partners’ vulnerability during key moments in therapy. They share personal insights, memorable learning moments from leading EFT supervisors/trainers, and actionable interventions to help therapists remain effective, even "on the leading edge" of difficulty.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Understanding and managing “red-light” caregiving responses in EFT: Exploring what happens when partners cannot respond supportively to each other's vulnerability and instead show reactive, rejecting, or attacking behaviors.
• Equipping therapists to respond skillfully: Providing step-by-step interventions for therapists to handle these situations with empathy and structure for better client outcomes, while maintaining safety and therapeutic momentum.
• Therapist self-management: How therapists can prepare themselves internally to expect and effectively handle challenging moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Red Light—What Is It and Why Does It Happen?

• "Red light" is defined as a strong negative reaction by the caregiving partner when their partner is vulnerable—criticism, blame, emotional shutdown, or attack, rather than attuned support.
  • A (Ryan Reyna): “This is the ultimate blow to security—to leave your partner alone in vulnerable pain... Anything could be silence, but usually it is criticism and blame right into someone's vulnerability.” (03:29)
• Red, Blue, Green Hats Concept:
  • Red hat: Attachment distress (one partner reaches out vulnerably)
  • Blue hat: Caregiving, responsive support
  • Green hat: Sexual system
    Partners need to “wear” blue when the other is in red vulnerability. (05:04-05:29)
• The red light isn’t just stubbornness or cruelty; it often signals the caregiver is overwhelmed or triggered into their own vulnerability or defense.
  • C (James Hawkins): “Our job is to go towards that, reflect that energy, name, validate the good reasons... now, remember, we’re on the clock because somebody is bleeding out on the table in a way.” (06:43)

2. Therapist Mindsets: Expecting and Preparing for Red Lights

• Assume red-light moments will happen; don't be surprised by them.
  • A: "I already know that they can’t. If they could do it, they would never call me." (09:00)
• Avoid “hoping” clients will always respond with attunement—it sets up you and your clients for disappointment. Prepare yourself physiologically and mentally for these tough moments. (08:51)
• Therapist’s response influences the safety and outcomes: "If you start hoping for them to hit the grand slam... they’re going to feel your disappointment." (09:00)

3. Therapist Response Procedure to Red Light

a. Assess the Client’s Goal

• Determine the couple’s motivation—are they ambivalent or motivated to repair?
  • A: “If their goal is ‘I really want to make this relationship work,’ I’m going to be pretty assertive with red lights... If they’re in an ambivalent stage, I’m not going to push as much. I’m going to sort of open the door...” (09:58-11:21)

b. Immediate Steps: Look, Listen, and Feel

• Be present, monitor both partners’ emotional states and body language, and gather information before acting.
  • C: “Look, listen, and feel... there is important information in the red light that can help inform your decision.” (12:34)

c. Contain the Response & Bubble Wrap the Sender

• Bubble Wrapping: Attend to the vulnerable partner who just risked—pause to acknowledge their emotional risk and “wrap” them in validation and support before turning to the reactive partner. (16:42-18:16)
  • C: “Your partner just took a very big risk, and I need to go check on their heart.”
  • A: “Hey, you did an amazing job... The cycle is doing a number on your partner and it’s my job to go find out why.”

d. Intervening with the Reactive Partner

• Interrupt the protest early; don’t let negative responses go unaddressed.
  • A: “Cut it off. Don't let that red light hit that sixth sentence, you know, four or five sentences and get in there.” (21:08)
• Sue Johnson Technique: Use gently misattuned, thin-sliced validation to seed the idea that, even amidst protest, a small part of the client may wish to provide care.
  • A: “Maybe there’s this really, really small part of you who would love to believe that your partner cares so much...” (22:00-22:53)
• Then, empathically validate the protest.
  • A: “There’s this bigger part of you... I can’t ever get it right... Is that kind of what I hear you say?” (22:53)
  • Solicit agreement and ask for regulation: “I hear you. This makes sense. Can you take a deep breath with me now?”
• Transition request: Ask the client to temporarily set their protest aside so you can return to the prior vulnerability: “I need you to set this aside for just a minute... I want to ask you to come back over here...” (24:11)

e. Aim for Even the Smallest Movement Towards Green

• Getting even 1% of empathy back is enough for progress—red to green is the goal if closeness is their aim.
  • A: “If you’re 99% blocked, then you’re 1% open. That’s all I need.” (29:17)

4. Therapist Self-Regulation and Professional Courage

• Having a clear procedure for these moments makes the therapist less fearful and enables “wide open” therapeutic work.
  • C: “If you are ready for red lights, you can go play your session wide open.” (26:12-26:18)
• Embrace the possibility of difficult or “ugly” moments in the room—those are often the opening to real change.
  • C: “You have a way of embracing fear in the room. That’s what makes you different.” (27:11)
• No risk, no reward: avoiding risk makes EFT less effective.
  • A: “If you try and play EFT too safe, you will be ineffective. No risk, no get.” (26:33)

5. What if Red Light Remains?

• Sometimes, red doesn’t turn green, but it usually does (>90% of the time) with the right containment and validation.
  • A: “What percentage of red lights go green?... It’s well over 90%.” (28:38)
  • If red doesn't go green, at least the process has clarified the relationship reality and provided the couple data for decision-making.

6. Addressing Therapist and Client Fears

• Host assurance: “I can handle whatever comes up.” (26:49)
• For the vulnerable client: witnessing the therapist embrace and process the protest can itself be healing, and clients have usually already heard the protest before.
  • C: “They’ve heard it a million times already. They’re familiar with it... It becomes helpful to see the therapist embrace their protest…” (30:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ryan Reyna on therapist expectation:
  “I already know that they can’t. If they could do it, they would never call me.” (09:00)
• James Hawkins reframes therapist fear:
  “If you are ready for red lights, you can go play your session wide open.” (26:12)
• Sue Johnson’s method via Ryan:
  “Maybe there’s this really, really small part of you who would love to believe that your partner cares so much that they’re really sad…” (22:35)
• On holding the risk in vulnerability:
  “No risk, no get, no risky, no giddy. Words of Sue.” (26:33)
• On the healing power of therapist containment:
  “If I’m protesting and I’m upset about something, and my therapist moves towards my emotion with empathy, understanding, and curiosity, it’s hard for my body to resist it because somebody met the function of the emotion.” (29:17)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:29 — Defining the Red Light response (criticism/blame toward vulnerability)
• 05:04-05:29 — Explaining the “hat” analogy (attachment/caregiving systems)
• 06:43 — Empathetic reframing of reactive partners
• 09:00 — Therapist preemptive mindset: expect red lights
• 12:34 — “Look, listen, and feel”—the therapist’s first move
• 16:42-18:16 — "Bubble wrapping" the partner who risked vulnerability
• 21:08-25:43 — Sue Johnson’s intervention for red-light caregivers, step-by-step
• 26:12 — Therapist empowerment: be ready and play “wide open”
• 28:38-29:17 — Over 90% of red lights can be transformed with the right approach
• 30:02 — Addressing the concern about hurting the vulnerable partner

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Additional Nuggets

• Repetition of skills in training is essential—even advanced therapists benefit from repeated exposure to dealing with red lights.
• It’s normal for these moments to be extremely “hot” in real sessions; having a plan makes the intensity manageable, not easy.
  • A: “This is hard. It’s hard on you... I feel heat, intensity... I have a narrow amount of room to work really, really fast... This is not easy. It’s not simple. But it’s even way harder if you don’t have a plan.” (32:55)

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Bottom Line

This episode provides practical, compassionate guidance for therapists on how to recognize, prepare for, and skillfully navigate the most difficult relational moments in EFT—where caregiving partners react with red lights. Through clear models, real-life examples, and field-tested strategies, the hosts empower listeners to turn the “nightmare” of rejection into a powerful opportunity for healing and connection.

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Recommended for all EFT therapists—star this episode and review often for those pivotal, high-stakes sessions.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, once again, I want to share about an upcoming externship and invite all of you, even if you're experienced efters. The Hampton Roads EFT community is going to launch their first ever externship with me and their local community of great support. It's in Virginia Beach, Virginia, actually on the beach. I think this may be the first EFT externship ever in view of the ocean, so we'll have discounts for repeaters. The dates are September 15th through the 18th, 2026. Visit Hampton Roads EFT. All right, today we're going to launch a mini series kind of in the middle of our stage two series. So a series of a series. And today we're going to talk about caregiving Nightmares. What today in this whole series and what happens when things go wrong in the middle of vulnerability.

[B]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Su Jefferson Johnson.

[C]

All right, Ryan. It is good indeed to be back and to get into this miniseries within our stage two series. And I want to almost say, in a way, last episode might also kind of fall under this because we did try. We. We worked on caregiving with yellow lights.

[A]

Right. That's fair. But I like a whole series just on the worst case. You know me. Let's talk about the worst case thing. And I'm actually wondering here, I wonder in front of the listeners, how much nuance can you do on a podcast? Because this gets really nuanced.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't have to know all these moves perfectly to do good eft, but when it gets tough, it doesn't. Doesn't hurt you to have thought through a few strategies and found some language.

[C]

That was an important statement. You're right. And I hope you all understand the brand of like, you know, where Ryan and I are on this podcast or, or, you know, even what we do in success and vulnerability. We're not trying to say lock you into. Well, you have to do it this way. We're roll out this sequence. All we're trying to say is can you see the options in front of you? You know, in one way I say I'm trying to become unblockable. Meaning there's no dead end.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's always just new opportunity.

[A]

Right. And this, and this is a study of ultimates here. Right. The. The green light two episodes back, which is a partner who sees their partner in distress and shows up a r E. Don't show up with the list. Don't do communication techniques. Show up with your heart. Don't just listen. Be present. Attune, comfort. You know, what's the word I'm looking for? Solace. Soothe. Soothe your partner. Right. That. That green light are response is the ultimate core of secure connection. Right. And today's the ultimate rejection of it. Right. This is the ultimate messenger of the cycle. The ultimate blow to security is to leave your partner alone in vulnerable pain. And so this is what we gotta be ready for when we're doing eft.

[C]

All right, so let's locate this Ryan. I think. I don't know if I've. I've taken time to be this intentional. Maybe me, but. So when we say red light, let's get really clear. Like we've talked about kind of like those almost soft kind sounding yellow lights, but they still leave the person alone holding it, you know, what does a red light sound like? What are you even calling a red light?

[A]

Yeah, red light to me is. It's two things below the line. It's emotional dysregulation, meaning if we think about red light, if we think about red hat, blue hat. Too many colors here. But. But the blue hat is this caregiving showing up for you. What it's saying is I, I see your red hat, but my red hat, someone who needs attention. Like, I'm so dysregulated, I'm. I'm the victim here. And so I'm dysregulated. And so it is like a no, a hard no with criticism, with blame, with just the opposite of what. Of what security would be. Really. Anything could be silence. But usually it is criticism and blame right into someone's vulnerability. So it's definitely a time where the. We have to have an active therapist.

[C]

Great description of it right there. And just in case, if y' all don't know what Ryan is saying. Hats. It's a concept we picked up from our friend George, special contributor on this podcast. And he talks about. He's just taken from the work of Phil Shaver or Mario McAlanzer, where they say there's three systems that make up an adult romantic bond. One we've always been talking about is attachment. You know, and you can still think of it in somewhat traditional terms of. There is this pleat, a distress alarm goes off that makes you reach for your secure base and you seek care. There's a Sexual system.

[A]

So hold on. Just so that. That. That attachment system, sometimes called the emotional system, we call the red hat.

[C]

There we go.

[A]

Which is, I got distress going on, and I'm gonna send out a signal of my distress. That's what George is calling their red hat.

[C]

Okay. Right.

[A]

And then there's the sexual system, which is green hat. I don't know why it's green, but.

[C]

I made it purple.

[A]

I could have made it purple because.

[C]

They combined red and blue make green. Purple. No. So red, blue make purple.

[A]

And then blue is the caregiving system, which is very instinctual, Hardwired into our bones to see another mammal, especially someone as important as our partner in distress. To stop what you're doing, be a R E and be in responsive.

[C]

Exactly right.

[A]

I'm showing up to comfort. So red hat, blue hat is well done. Red hat, blue head is a secure bond.

[C]

Exactly. There we go. And right now, Ryan and I are in step six, trying to ask the other partner after the person just revealed their negative view of self and maybe attachment, fear, but pretty much the negative thing they believe about themselves.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Is we're asking the other person, can you put on the blue hat? And would you be willing. Be willing to wear the blue hat while your partner's wearing their red hat with this very scary place? But what Ryan is saying is not only are they saying, no, I can't, it's they're wrong for what they feel. They're wrong for this. It's almost like an attacking.

[A]

It's an attack.

[C]

But what I think it's coming from sometimes it's. Is because something of vulnerability got triggered in them, and they just can't feel safe wearing that red hat. I mean, sorry, the blue hat for their partner or the caregiving hat for them.

[A]

It feels like walking into an ambush for them.

[C]

Bingo.

[A]

They're feeling surrounded. They're feeling really unsafe. They're emotionally disregulated inside of them.

[C]

And catch what Ryan just said. Because as we get ready to get practical with this and for you to work, you've got to hold that frame. Because if you go at that red light with, see, they're being a jerk. They're just being mean right now. Why can't they do this? But what Ryan just gave you is an empathic kind of reframe for, hey, the reason why they're probably doing that is because something's going on for them. Our job is to go towards that, reflect that energy name, validate the good reasons for the energy, and see it for a moment. Now Remember, Ryan said the last podcast on this kind of caregiving. But we're on the clock because remember the scene you just invited the other person to share something that was very deep and scary, as Ryan calls it. The dams they believe about themselves, those deadly attachment messages. I'm unlovable. I'm too much, I'm weak, I'm inept. That's laying on the table. So while that's laying on the table and we get this kind of red light response from the caregiving system that says this is too scary, this feels unsafe. While I want to move towards that and understand it, I can't forget I'm on the clock because somebody is bleeding out on the table in a way. Hope that's not too vivid of a. Yeah, but you need to feel it that way, I think. Right.

[A]

And that's, that's my number one thing, is be ready for red lights all the time.

[C]

There you go. That's right.

[A]

We're talking about step six right now, which is a key moment where I can't be asleep at the will due to the fact of how deep we just went before that. Yeah. But at any point, anytime, I'm doing an ac, but I'm ready for a red hat. I'm from. Sorry, I'm ready for the red light.

[C]

And why are you ready for that red light? That, like, why do you just kind of go and get your body ready for that, Ryan?

[A]

Because I don't want to surprise me.

[C]

There we go.

[A]

If it surprises me, I'm going to have an attachment response, a panic response. And now it throws in my anxiety to what is already really anxious.

[C]

So catch what Ryan's doing there. He's just going ahead and getting his body ready for the red light. He. But, and I think he said this in the last episode right. About, well, episode 128. There you go. Look at that. I remember the number. 128. Ryan said, Be very careful about setting yourself up of hoping this goes well.

[A]

Don't hope.

[C]

Because that's the only time I hear Ryan say don't hope. Right.

[A]

Our office is nhz no hope zone.

[C]

But what he's really saying is it's, hey, remember, just hold space that your client for a reason. If you start hoping for them to hit the grand slam and walk off in the World Series and then they can't, they're going to feel your disappointment. But if you're ready for the worst possible thing that can happen, then as a professional who's there to care for them, you're already kind of, in a sense, oh, I'm ready for that.

[A]

I mean, to me, this is one of the top three things of our entire podcast, which, you know, is not a great bumper sticker, but I already know that they can't. If they could do it, they would never call me. So the way we think about blocks the way we think about, you know, mistrust cycles. Like, we know that's where their nervous system has been going. So if I expect people who I know are in an unsafe place to act like they're secure, I'm just going to set everybody else up for failure. So it's a big deal.

[C]

Okay, before we get practical, is there anything else you need to set the scene before we take the break and then come back into the practical?

[A]

There is good, good timing. That was nice. I didn't ever teach this until this year, and I got pushed by participant, and I'm like, that's a good push. If a red light's happening at any point, I need to. I need to step back mentally and go, what's this person's goal here? Right. So if they're in an ambivalent stage and they're like, I'm not sure I want this. I'm thinking about leaving, or maybe I want to be this, maybe I don't want to be here, then that's going to inform me to operate very differently with red lights. Whereas if people are like, you know, we can't get along with each other, but we really want to help us, then I'm going to be much more assertive. So if their goal is I really. And I don't act, I don't literally ask them what their goal is. But if they've been clear we really want to make this relationship work, I'm going to be pretty assertive with red lights. But if they're in an ambivalent stage, I'm not going to push as much. I'm not going to be as assertive in terms of how I operate. You know, they may do a red light and I may reflect it and take care of the partner as we're going to talk about in a moment. And then I might lean into. Hey. So I'm trying to interpret what I'm seeing right now. Are you saying you're upset and this isn't feeling good, or are you saying this has been too much for me and I can't do it anymore? Right. If they're in that ambivalent place, I'm going to. I'm going to Sort of open the door to try to help them be clear not to say to leave, but if they're saying, I really want this and it's just clear they're stuck in the cycle, I'm going to be fairly assertive to see if I can get them to make a shift.

[C]

I like that we could break down so much off of that one, but we'll do it when we come back here from break. Do you like the content that you're hearing on this podcast? Well, we invite you to join us on successandvulnerability.com along with George Fowler and other EFT therapists and supervisors, where you get to get more thorough insight into these concepts and actually get to see it done. Once again, join us on successandvulnerability.com all right, so I want to come back to what you just said, Ryan, because that was big. So first of all, to get practical when the red light shows up. This is something I started teaching. Now, Ryan, when the reactivity comes up, I know it's going to hit your system as a therapist, but this is something I learned as an emt. When it gets kind of hectic there, what you got to be able to do is still look, listen, and feel because there is important information in the red light that can help inform your decision from there. So when I say look, listen, and feel, what Ryan just shared, it is this red light that's coming up. Is it a form of. I know there's something important for me to hear, to do here, but my system just got revved up because I may be stuck or I'm just kind of fighting my way through to get to, like, what do I need to do?

[A]

Yeah, I want to be here. This feels unfair.

[C]

And I just had to happen. At a shout out to the Atlanta EFT community. We were doing a stage two pursuer softening. And the withdrawal had kind of, you know, they had did their withdrawal reengagement. But right as their pursuer comes into their vulnerability, the partner kind of, this is a cisgender heterosexual white couple here. And he just kind of hits this marker where he's like, well, James, I'm trying to figure it out, and I just don't kind of have this negative way of thinking in my mind. I'm trying to get my partner to the positive in this. And I hear it. But you hear what he just did. I'm listening. He's like, I hear the energy, and he's kind of almost pushing it off. But what I heard him saying was, I see what's going on, and I want to be able to do something, but. But I don't know what to do. Even though it came out with a lot of volume and energy, I could listen. I could look, listen and feel. So then I interrupt him and say, hey, hey. Thank you. Let me make sure this what Ryan said. And then I offer, like, kind of almost like a reflective kind of conjecture of let me try on what I think I see. Your body just told me. Because that's our way of saying, I see the energy. And I'm inviting to kind of like to turn that energy into a signal we can use. Sorry, y'. All. But this also takes me back to something. When we had Leanne on the show and me and Ryan, Ashley, and when you see feet, when you see, like, a lot of reactivity show up in session, what does that mean for you? Leanne and her response, so simple and eloquent as Leanne is, it's, oh, reactivity is just telling me there's fear and pain that hasn't been made known yet. My job is to go find it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So when that caregiving system does that, it's just kind of showing me something. Can I look, listen, and feel and then turn it into a signal we can use?

[A]

Yeah. But notice what Leanne didn't say. She didn't say, oh, this person's so afraid. I'm going to ignore all the reactivity and just dive after the fear.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Like, that's bad. Eft.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

And I see people get lost at thinking that's what the model is. I definitely do believe it's fear. I'd love to arrive there, but I've got to spend some time where they are before. Before I can take them where I'd like to see them go.

[C]

So let's go. You want to get into that process Because I like that. Because what we want to you, if it gives you an image here, we're not just going trying to jump from a red light right to a green light. Ryan is saying here. It's the first step has to be go, move towards the red light. Don't try and talk them out of like, oh, this is so sad, and this is so scary. Like, hey, I can see your body is saying something really important is happening here. Something doesn't feel right to you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[A]

Or even, ouch, ouch, ouch. Lots going on here. I saw you jump off the couch, man. Something that's happening right now is not okay.

[C]

There you Go right.

[A]

So some way to respond and match that is really key. And a lot of therapists, myself included, sometimes we're tired. You know, I'm used to sitting in a recliner 15ft away across a coffee table. And those moments don't work with red lights.

[C]

So there you go. So one, if y' all hear it, you've got to look, listen, and feel to the energy. To what? What is the energy in their body in the moment telling you? Move yourself towards it in a. Or look, listen, and feel to see what it's trying to tell you. And whatever that style needs to look like for you, how are you going to move closer to it? Because this is not a moment when they're in a red light. If you stay too far away, it will almost, in a way, force their body to have to push out more energy to get your attention.

[A]

Absolutely. And if you. Yeah, if you. If you miss low and you're going for the vulnerable, it actually tells them to scream louder. And now what have you done? You've hurt the partner, you know, so that it's important. Take three or four passes to get up there and really, really capture their protest. What is the poignant phrase that they're saying? And if I can repeat that at the same or similar level that they are, will they hand me the protest.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And come back and be president in the office?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a question for me.

[C]

That's a good one. Right. So that's good. Let me make sure I. Can I go back another step.

[A]

And I need to as well.

[C]

Yep. There you go. Because even while we're talking about this, with going towards the reactivity, let's not forget there's another person who was just bleeding out. I want to give credit to Kerry Lucas, a therapist here in Arkansas, works out of Fort Smith.

[A]

We're gonna bubble wrap here.

[C]

Great. You know where I'm going already. But Carrie was very brilliant.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because why we want to go to exactly is. Thank you. Carrie is very brilliant. She's an EFT supervisor. If you're looking for an EFT supervisor. She was. Did a lot of my facilitation when I was learning eft. So there you go. But anyways, Carrie would say it. So one, you do need to kind of have a quick moment to say, stop the firing and meet the energy. But she would say is pause that person and say, thank you so much. I'm gonna come back to something really important is happening here. But your partner just took a very big risk, and I need to go check on their heart. Come over to that person, and what she would say is, you need to acknowledge what they just did, and in a way, bubble wrap them, say, hey, thank you. That was a really big thing. It was scary. And this is the very thing your body afraid this kind of happened here because a cycle just kind of showed up in the room. Thank you for what you did. How's your heart doing? Great. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And I think something's coming up for your partner. Can you hold for maybe about five to seven minutes while I see what came up for your partner? But once again, I noticed what you did. Thank you so much.

[A]

Well, I just want to. I just want to add, hey, you did an amazing job.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

Right. Right in front of the partner, too. Which might make them mad. I'm like, they're already mad. Hey, I want you to know I asked you to do something. I set you up here, and you did it very, very well. The cycle is doing a number on your partner, and it's my job to go find out why. You can take a little breather here, but before I do, I want you to know you did amazing. Like that ties the tourniquet on them or bubble wraps them where the cycle can't do irreparable damage.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

That's an important part. And when you do that exactly. Is up to you. Just don't forget to do it. And I do forget sometimes.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And one. It's good for the tourniquet, for their heart. But here's why I also like it. Ryan is calling the other partner to have to witness the moment.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Because when they did their yell, their red light. I want y' all to hear this. I don't think they calculated it. I don't even know if they know how it's happening and how it's landing in the moment until. Until later on after the session, you get that email. I'm sorry for how I acted in therapy today. I can't believe I did that. So in other words, I think when you catch it in the moment and you say it to the other partner, you did exactly what I asked you to do. That other person's having to kind of. That is the accountability, because they're having the witness. Oh, I'm sorry. That was horrible timing. Right. So that's one part.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But then it also gives that person, once again, just a little bit of oxygen and safety to come back over to give you time back time on the clock to go work with the reactivity. Of this partner. Sorry. And you want to go back to Ryan?

[A]

Well, just back to something we said before the break. If the goal of them is clearly, I don't like this because I want us to be different, then my goal is red to green. I'm going to try to work that red light and see if I can shrink the protest enough via working with it to get this to go green, to get them to be are if, though I'm unclear on what the goal is. If there's ambivalence, then my goal with the red light is simply to clarify it, connect the dots to inform them of what decision they need to make. Maybe, maybe they're saying they have to leave or maybe the partner needs to see, oh, when I put my heart out, it's going to make everything worse and my partner's not committed to me and maybe I need to leave. Like, whatever it is, my job's to clarify in that moment. Yep.

[C]

Wow, that's good. All right, so now we've. We've kind of bubble wrapped the other person. We've come back over. We've given our kind of. And when you come back over after the bubble wrap kind of, what does your process look like there, Ryan?

[A]

So this is where I'm a. I'm like. I used to jokingly call myself Robin Hood. Remember those days?

[C]

I don't remember that one.

[A]

I wear a lot of tights, James. No, I'm joking, I'm joking. Robin Hood stole from the rich to give to the poor, right?

[C]

Yep, that's right.

[A]

So when we first started Arkansas. EFT and I started running around with people, I would say, hey, I'm going to go fly to somewhere and train with sue or train with George or train with Leanne. And I'm going to come back and try to share locally with this. And so this is one of my main takes that I got from sue, and if I'm honest with you, on a red light that I'm trying to turn green, I use her exact language. I don't do it as eloquently as she does, I'm sure, but I use her exact language. You know what it is?

[C]

I'm ready to hear this again.

[A]

You've seen it before. Well, the first thing is cut it off. Don't let that red light hit that sixth sentence, you know, four or five sentences and get in there. Right. And so oftentimes that's a good place to say, hold on, hold on. Go tie your tourniquet, come right back in. You can do this in different orders. But the way sue did it was absolutely. I don't know if she meant to or not. I should have asked her this, but. But what she did was in her interruption, she said. So hold on. We're going to stop right now. Hang on, hang on, hang on. I hear you. I hear you. I know this is really hard. I want to try on what I think I just saw. And after I tell you, you can tell me if I'm on track or not. Okay. Can you take a deep breath for me? It really is a brilliant distraction move.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it takes the pressure off the partner. Now the red light person is looking at me and, like, they're usually mad. Like, come on. Then I'm like, that's fine. And I'm going to say, I want to try on what I think I just saw. And it's really hard for them not to be curious about that. If you can imagine being at your doctor's office and they're X ray in your knee, and they're like, mm, mm. Oh, I need to talk about what I just saw in your knee. It's really hard not to be like, what'd you see? Right. And so. So it's a great. It's a great breaking of the red light. It takes pressure off the partner. Right. And then. Then what? Well, I'm going to do a version of parts, or versions, if you like that word better. Okay. And so the way sue did it, absolutely brilliant. I've taught this all over the U.S. and I will tell you, man, less than 1% of people who train can do this. So I don't know if it's real advanced or what, but sue would start slightly intentionally misattuned with her parts on a red light. She would actually lean towards the middle of the room with me. It would be my right hand if the client's on my. If the red lighter's on my left. And she would say, maybe there's this really, really small part of you who would love to believe that your partner cares so much that they're really sad. Like, you just heard. So look how thin she sliced. That maybe there's this really small part who would love to believe. Like, that doesn't ask for much agreement. Like, that's pretty easy to say. Okay, maybe. Which is all I'm looking for. But now I've seeded attachment in a super thin way. It's absolutely brilliant. And I started there. Almost misattuned with the protest. So it starts off with maybe there's some super small part of you, who would love to believe that what you've been seeing from your partner all those years is that they really sad, right? I'm not even stopping. It's a rhetorical question. And then I lean to my left, which is away from the sending partner. And then I need to come up and I want to take five or six of my very best matches. There's this bigger part of you is like, are you kidding me? I'm supposed to feel bad for them. I get criticized my whole life. I can't ever get it right. Nothing I'd ever do is good enough. I'm the ongoing project they've got to fix. And now they're supposed to be sad over here. This is ridiculous. Is that kind of what I hear you say, James? And if they can give me a little bit of consent, I ask for a deep breath. Okay, I hear you. This makes sense. Can you take a deep breath with me now? We're trying to regulate them after I've matched, you know, and then an option, I think I got this from. From George, is to say, so I want you to know I need to come back and understand that a lot more. They'll sometimes say, yeah, you do. And I'm like, yeah, I do. I do. I'm going to come to that next. But I need you to ask me. I'm going to. I need to ask you a really big favor, and it's a hard one. I need you to set this aside for just a minute, okay? Because we got to finish what we start in this office. Otherwise, the cycle always wins. So I want to come back and understand this painful place that I just saw, okay? But I want to ask you for a moment to set it aside. I want to ask you to come back over here. Remember that really small part that would love to believe that you matter that much to them. What would he say to your partner? And so oftentimes they can say something like, well, I do care, you know, and that's good. That's. That's a lot better than a red light.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

So it's a light green. So we're getting a little bit of love back into that place. There's red to green for me. I pretty much use those same maneuvers over and over and over.

[C]

Thank you for still distilling that down so clearly, y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

I want to give you just some. Like, if you want to ask me what I'm. What I get myself ready for for a live this. If I have. For me, it. It calms my nervous System. If I have a good red light procedure ready, then what else do I have to be afraid of?

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Nothing. Yep. Y' all need to take that in. If you are ready for red lights, you can go play your session wide open.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

And I'll admit myself of the therapist was I was always afraid of things getting too big and having to clean it up. So then I tried to play safe. But I'll tell you, if you try and play eft too safe, you will be ineffective. No risk, no get, no risky, no giddy. Sue.

[A]

Words of Sue.

[C]

Right?

[A]

And if you're. And if you're scared of the red light and you're going to just wait too long to do enactments and you're going to, like, make sure they're ready, and I'm like, nope. Sometimes you just got to send it over, knowing here's your. Here's your huge phrase in the eft. I can handle whatever comes up.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

If you can say it and mean it. This is a whole different model.

[C]

Yep. When I was at the trainers retreat, getting to meet some of the trainers and hearing them talk about hard cases, they're all brilliant. No if ands about it. But you know what really impressed me about them was I said, oh, you have a way of embracing fear in the room. That's what makes you different.

[A]

That's pretty deep.

[C]

It is. I mean, when you talk to, like. And I'll just, you know, I'm not just, you know, they. They are close friends in a way, but I keep. When you interview Leanne and George, they just have this way of, it's okay, but what about when it gets ugly information, like, wait, you just really accept it that way? They're like, yeah, this new information and another process.

[A]

They're not surprised, are they?

[C]

No, they are not.

[A]

This is what's coming their way, and this is what they signed up for. And this is what we do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Nice, nice.

[C]

But, yeah, thank you for that, Rand. That was so clear.

[A]

Yes. So red to green is our goal if closeness is what they want. So here's what people don't believe. So I do this little. What I just did with you, I do in more of a involved demonstration. I do it in core skills two, I do it in core skills three. I do it again in core skills four, so that people that do core skills with me have now seen Sue's methodology three times almost word for word. That repetition, to me, is important. I do the demo. People like, oh, man. Okay, that was good. I Can't see that happening in session. What percentage of red lights go green, James? I'll see what you say. I know I have my answer.

[C]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. I put you on the spot.

[C]

Yeah, I never thought about that one, Ryan. I can. The last one I can remember in Tampa, I couldn't convert that one over. He was just too far gone. But I tell you, it was pretty high.

[A]

It's high. It's really high.

[C]

It's very high.

[A]

It's well over 90%.

[C]

Yeah, I was going to say it's got to be above 90.

[A]

It is. So people are just like, I don't believe that. I'm like, well, if you don't handle it right, you're right. I mean, if you. If you let that reactivity grow, you know, and expand on you and you don't do contained work, then, yeah, it's not going to work. But if you have a plan, and those five matching validations I did are really, really key, most people, if you can do that and contain, can come over and give at least a little bit of empathy back to their partner, and that's all it takes. If you're 99% blocked, then you're 1% open. That's all I need. That's right. If we can get 1% back to that sending partner, that's. That's 1% more than they had yesterday.

[C]

And, you know, this is why I think it works, y'. All. I don't want to make this like it's not. You're meeting the function of their emotion. Yeah, that's it. That's it. If I'm protesting and I'm upset about something, and my therapist moves towards my emotion with empathy, understanding, and curiosity, it's hard for my body to resist it because somebody met the function of the emotion. So therefore, I don't need the protection as much anymore.

[A]

That's how it got read in the first place. I never had it organized. No one shows up. I'm left alone. I'm feeling threatened. So the way we're working this red light actually is the salve for all those wounds. And so, I mean, I'm not saying it goes perfect, but you can get some responsiveness back most of the time.

[C]

And let me help on this one, because somebody over there. You're listening right now, and I just heard your question. The question you're thinking in your head right now. But James and Ryan, what about the person who just took a vulnerable risk? Isn't this going to hurt their heart to have to hear that? Protest. Here's what I want to say to you. They've heard it a million times already. They're familiar with it. But here's where it becomes helpful to see the therapists embrace their protest, to be curious with it and to help find their way through it. In front of them, they are almost like, oh, I didn't know that you had to work through so much to give care to me in some way. I want to be careful how I would say that. So to see their partner do the work in front of them, actually, sometimes, Ryan, this happened for me. They actually have some compassion. Like, thank you for that. Thank you for not just staying angry and giving up. Thank you for not just shutting down. Thank you for staying with it. And I didn't know that. I saw how much. And by the way, it's not even just what the person says. I appreciated just seeing how you work to stay with me in it.

[A]

Yeah, well, and we have a bulletproof. We already have a bulletproof vest on them. Right. So as soon as they send over that deep enactment, especially in stage two, before we even give the caregiver the chance, we're going to come over and say, incredible job. That was amazing. That was perfect. I'm touched by that. There's our first tourniquet. Then they go red. We're going to come back over and do another tourniquet.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

Right. So we've got it. We've got it twice on them and. But I need it. I want to see it.

[C]

Here's another phrase I've added in Ryan, tell me what you think, because we don't know what the other person's going to do. And I'm not making the success of it all based upon what the other person does. Another thing I've added in as a win, going back to the. Even before we give the caregiver a chance is a sentence I've added is, hey, I don't know what your partner might say or do with this, but. But good job for you because normally you don't ever get to reach for comfort because you've got this negative belief about you that keeps. That doesn't even make that an option. Good job for making your heart an option today and coming out of the darkness to be seen.

[A]

Beautiful.

[C]

Because no matter what they do, you're going to need that gear for your life. Good job.

[A]

Yeah. All those phrases that they're saying in step five, that model of self that. That fears. Let's say their partner leaves, then that's grief work. You See, either way, it's incredibly important work. So that is literally true what you're saying. Nice. I like that frame.

[C]

All right, y', all, thank y' all so much. But I hope, please, I'll tell you this, this episode here, this concept, Ryan is right. I've heard it that. I've heard that a couple times. I didn't know all of that was from sue. So thank you there, Ryan. But y' all take this episode in. This needs to be one you put a star by listen to a couple times. Because if you get this mastered, you know, I. For me, that's what made me not be afraid of enactments in stage one or two or three, or I don't have to avoid difficult moments because if it goes south, I've got a plan.

[A]

Yeah. And I would just add, this is hard. This is hard. It's hard on you. You know, when I'm doing a demonstration in front of a big group, it doesn't feel hard at all. I've done it a few times, but in a real session, I feel. I feel heat intensity. I feel like I have a very narrow amount of room to work really, really fast. I see disgust on their face. So this is not easy. This is not simple, but it's even way harder if you don't have a plan. So hopefully we're joining you here on the leading edge of working with red lights in this new series. Can't wait to share some more.

[B]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work, to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional Training and on his website site, ryanrainatraining. Com. You can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website, dochawklpc. Com.