132. Another Option w/ Blocks: Externalization in EFT—Guiding Clients Compassionately Into Vulnerability”

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Episode: 132. Another Option w/ Blocks: Externalization in EFT—Guiding Clients Compassionately Into Vulnerability
Air Date: December 11, 2025
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins (A) & Nicola (B)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode focuses on the clinical technique of externalization within Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). The hosts explore how therapists can utilize externalization as a compassionate, flexible intervention for clients who find direct vulnerability overwhelming or “blocked.” The episode is designed to help therapists expand their intervention toolkit and learn how to guide clients through difficult emotional material in more accessible ways, while maintaining safety and connection in the session.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Externalization in EFT

• Externalization in Practice: Taking a client’s overwhelming emotion or blocked vulnerability and shifting it to an external or less direct frame of reference (e.g., talking about a younger version of themselves, a third person, or a generalized pattern).
• This shift creates psychological distance, making it easier for clients to reflect on and process difficult emotions.
• Metaphor Used: “I’ll let you breathe, but I won’t let you leave.” - Encourages staying present with difficult material, but with enough room for the client to regulate themselves (07:06)

2. Rationale and Clinical Function

• Direct, deepening questions can be too provocative for some clients ("their eyes get big… you found the spot," 06:08).
• Externalization acts as a “side door” or “window” when the “front door” (direct approach) is too threatening.
• Quote: “I need to pull that stare back a little bit… direct isn’t going to work. And then I go to externalization.” (09:38)

3. Practical Examples and Scenarios

• Examples include referencing the client's younger self (“How old were you when you learned this lesson?”) or discussing how they’d advise a friend in the same situation.
• Scenario: When a pursuer in a couple’s session appears panicked and defensive, externalization can ease the way into vulnerability without confrontation (12:03).
• Nicola: “Okay, you know, we can… we can pause here. Don’t have to go any further. And if this was over here, like, how would you advise this person with this?” (11:13)

4. Collaborative and Compassionate Stance

• Emphasis on not “fighting” the client, but gently staying with them and trying different approaches collaboratively.
• “The point is, I’m still staying with you through it. I’m not leaving you there alone… we can do this with a slightly different approach.” (13:10)
• Externalization also validates the client's protective strategies and helps uncover the underlying fear or pain.

5. Re-integration

• Critical caution: Don’t leave the client externally detached from their experience.
• James: “When I externalize it, the power is not leaving the external to me… I want to reintegrate it into some kind of healing or redemptive empowered way.” (18:29)
• Analogous to taking apart and then properly reassembling a car—everything needs to go back in its place for healing.

6. Promoting Meaning-Making & Safety

• Externalization helps the client create coherence around their story, see their patterns with new eyes, and sometimes brings soothing “cushions of safety” to the process (19:55).
• Reflection and externalization both offer clients a new perspective on their lived experience.

7. Therapist Flexibility & Clinical Options

• Therapists must have options and flexibility. Externalization is “another tool in the bag.”
• “It’s not that… any of the many great EFT trainers and therapists… have something nobody else can do. It’s that they have options when they hit moments.” (21:24)
• Knowing when to return to direct focus or stay external is a nuanced, moment-to-moment decision.

8. Cultural Sensitivity & Externalization

• Cautions regarding generalization—it's important to not overwrite or minimize cultural and individual client experiences in the process of externalizing (24:05).

9. “Bringing It Back In” and Enactment

• As soon as there’s openness or softening, stop externalizing and bring experience back to the core self (the “heart and body in the room”). (28:13)
• Use reflection and validation to “land” the emotional experience and facilitate deeper enactment or behavioral change.

10. Empowering Client Choice

• Present clients with “which path” options when a block emerges, supporting autonomy and self-regulation.
• “Which one does your body think we need to stay with, that would make a difference for you?” (30:23)
• Validating even when clients can’t go further: “Good job on what you did… Thank you for how you took space and looked at this from a different angle.” (31:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• James (07:06): “I’ll let you breathe, but I won’t let you leave.”
• Nicola (13:10): “The point is, I’m still staying with you through it. I’m not leaving you there alone.”
• James (18:29): “When I externalize it…the power of it is not leaving the external to me… I want to reintegrate it into some kind of healing way or redemptive empowered way.”
• James (21:24): “It’s not that… any of the many great EFT trainers and therapists… have something nobody else can do. It’s that they have options when they hit moments.”
• James (30:23): “Which path do you want..? Which one does your body think we need to stay with, that would make a difference for you?”
• Nicola (13:56): “If I move this and if I look at this, what’s going to happen in my world?...”
• James (09:38): “I need to pull that stare back a little bit...create some turn in my body...direct isn’t going to work. And then I go to externalization.”
• James (15:55): “See how many validations I get in there? Right. Boom, boom, boom.”
• James (20:48): “Because I’m living in it, I don’t get to see it like that.”

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• 01:29 – Setup: Addressing clients’ fear and introducing the theme
• 06:08 – Defining externalization and metaphor for the approach
• 10:05 – Concrete examples of externalization techniques
• 12:03 – Case framing: Managing panic and overwhelm in session
• 13:10 – Collaborative, compassionate stance
• 17:36 – Reintegrating externalized experience
• 19:55 – Externalization as a way to create safety and meaning
• 21:24 – Therapist flexibility, “another tool in the bag”
• 24:05 – Cautions around generalization and cultural dynamics
• 27:32 – Returning from externalization to direct experience
• 30:23 – Empowering client choice about the therapeutic path
• 31:26 – Validating even blocked or overwhelmed moments

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Conclusion

The hosts invite therapists to embrace externalization as a powerful and compassionate option in their intervention repertoire, especially with clients who struggle with direct emotional contact. The ability to externalize and then reintegrate vulnerability—while continuously working collaboratively and attuned to individual and cultural context—can profoundly facilitate healing and connection.

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For further learning:

• Leanne Campbell & Sue Johnson’s soon-to-be-released trauma book (announcement at 04:48 and throughout).
• Stay tuned for upcoming episodes featuring more learning from leading EFT practitioners.

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Transcript

[A]

Ryan and I are honored that many times y' all ask about how to be in trainings with us. And so if you want to hear that, stay tuned. But if you want to go ahead and get into the episode, go ahead and skip right on ahead. Take it away, Nicola.

[B]

All right, here are some leading edge training options to train with Dr. Hawkins. Mark the following. February 5th through 7th, Core Skills 1 and 2 in Bend, Oregon. February 18th through 21st, Externship in Houston, Texas. March 5th through 7, Core Skills 1 and 2 in Washington, Baltimore, EFT community. March 11th through 14th Externship in Atlanta, EFT community. March 26th through 28th, Core Skills 3 and 4 in North Texas, EFT community. May 6th through 9th, Externship in Maine, EFT community. And to train with Dr. Ryan Reyna, we have January 15th through 17th, Core Skills 3 and 4in Huntington, West Virginia. January 29th through 31st, Core Skills 1 and 2 in North Texas, EFT community, Plano in February 19th through 21st, Core Skills 3 and 4 in Missoula, Montana. February 26th through the 28th, Core Skills 3 and4, Indianapolis, Indiana.

[A]

Have you ever tried to help someone who was scared and just afraid and to move directly towards them was just too provoking for them and just didn't know quite how to move towards them in their fear? Well, that's what we're going to be talking about today is the use of externalization to help clients as an intervention to help clients experience themselves in moments of vulnerability.

[B]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Chapter Johnson.

[A]

All right, everybody, welcome back once again in this episode. We are still taking a break right now. Ryan's on the road. I've been doing some things from our stage two series and then jumping into our miniseries on caregiving nightmares. Definitely thankful for. And I guess, you know, I thought about this. Nicola, I need to stop saying you're a special guest. Sorry. You're special, but you're no longer a guest. No, no.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, you're special, but you're no longer a guest, though. You are a part of this, this podcast. So thank you for you and thank you to the, the people who, like, when I, when I'm out on the road, they're like, when is Nicola going to be back on Again, I liked when she was on. I'm like, well, I mean, no insult to me. It's all good. No, I'm messing. I'm messing.

[B]

I think it's just. It's the novelty of down difference.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, that's cool. No, but seriously, I think also you bring another perspective, another voice, another way. And I think also your listen.

[B]

I'm just curious.

[A]

I don't know. Yes. You know, and I think they pick up that.

[B]

I don't know what. I don't know. So I ask questions, Angel.

[A]

And you're very warm. I think that's too much. We'll say that, too.

[B]

I've heard that a time or two when I've meet. Met people like, oh, your voice. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forget about that. Thank you. So, yeah.

[A]

But thank you for being here.

[B]

But thank you for having me.

[A]

Thank you to therapy. I know when you do these thank yous to the therapist, and I know we usually don't say things that date these podcasts, but, you know, it is kind of in. Let's see, how can I say, you know, Because I know not everybody sees these time. This time of the year, the same. But the holiday season typically in America. But what I would say to it, though, is for many people, this could be a hectic time of year. There are some, you know, family dynamics and traditions and society. And then also, even if you want to throw the whole holiday part out, I mean, weather sometimes and. And loss and just the rhythm of life. But I want to thank therapists for the space you hold in the many variations of this world. That's what I really want to get to the highs and lows of society, times of celebration, when, you know, the world is celebrating, but, you know, the dark side sometimes when, because you're working with the people who are grieving, the broken family relationships, the people who are getting ready to go and be around people that if they've had some hard times with and they're working through things with. So as therapists, thank you for that sacrifice you make while you also have your own family and your own things that you're working through. So thank you for that.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. That's so good.

[A]

And also I want to say another special thank you because I think. Hope I got this right. Forgive me if. If not Leanne. January 8th. Leanne and Sue's book will be coming out on trauma. Like, I've said it before, people have heard me say it's one of my favorite books. By sue. And. And I was teaming up with Leanne Campbell, who is herself so dynamic and compassionate. And, I mean, she's given me so many tips over the years on. On trauma work. And I tell people when I'm in training, between, you know, Leanne and Catherine, you know, people say, james, you organize a lot and you explain a lot, their influence because of the trauma work that they've done.

[B]

So.

[A]

So we want to definitely go on Amazon now. You can pre order it. Mine has been on pre order since September, so I look forward to getting. And we will have Leanne on the episode to talk about the release of her book, what we can Expect. And just kind of, you know, what. What are some nuggets that her and sue picked up, you know, years later as they were. As they were updating this. This text. So I'm excited for that.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

All right. But back into the episode that we're in today, it's one that matters. It's one that was interesting that I got to experience and a while back in an intensive, at a very pivotal moment. And I didn't realize how many different ways I'm using this intervention today to particularly talking about, like, externalization.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so before we get into it, I guess, and I tell you all, let me tell you what I mean by externalization that'll be helpful if you even picked it up from the cold open. The image that comes up for me, or my best metaphor, in a way, for it is sometimes with your clients, there's a moment in. In the work we do as therapists, they feel safe. They work with somebody warm and curious, like Nicole, and then they start opening up and they start sharing, and then all of a sudden, you ask them that evocative question or just a curious question. All of a sudden, it's like their eyes get big and their body is like, oh, and it's like you found the spot. Like the. And when I say you found it, it's almost like I'm not quite sure if I'm ready to either own that, see that, feel that, acknowledge that, and you notice it. As a therapist, and particularly for me, I can be. I've learned in life, in life and in therapy to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And. And so with those moments, I can have a, it's okay, we're staying. Or the one, you know, I said it first in Alaska. Shout out to Alaska. I'll let you breathe, but I won't let you leave. Oh, and meaning I will let you have a breath, but I'm staying.

[B]

Staying.

[A]

Yeah. And the reason why I do that staying is not because I'm trying to be mean, but it's. And I want to be careful. There's caution in saying, but I'm staying because if you. If that vulnerability showed up, then that means it was right on time. Your body let it come to the fort for a reason, and I want to give you an opportunity to have some success with it. What I'm usually saying is, I don't want to let it beat my clients because then it keeps teaching them to do the same thing over and over and over again. Yeah.

[B]

Breaking the patterns, right?

[A]

That's right. So we're gonna do what I tell myself is we're gonna do something.

[B]

Something.

[A]

We're gonna do something with it. We might not be able to do everything, but we're doing something because you're. You. You're. You deserve it. Your body needs it, your relationship needs it. We're going to do something. So. But in that metaphor is also. I can't just always go, like, almost like stare them in the eye and keep coming straight at it and straight at it.

[B]

Feel daunting.

[A]

I might try a few passes, but then at a moment, this goes what I liked when, you know, George was training me, he said, james, do you know the function of the intervention, what it's trying to do? So all those deepening and heightening type interventions is trying to invite a person into a direct encounter and experience with whatever is alive in the room or in their body. But sometimes they can't take that. And I need to read, like, my intervention, even a while, it might be a good one, but it's not for the right time. The client can't take it in. So then he would challenge me. If your intervention works, then what? And so if the deepening and heightening works, you keep doing more until you get to a place where it's like, oh, now we're going to do our enactment or our own encounter.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then there's a time, say, it's not working. And I say, oh, I'm staring you straight down. I need to pull. And in a way, the way I call it is I need to pull that stare back a little bit. I need to create some turn my body, But I need. Even in my intervention, what I'm saying is direct isn't going to work. And then I go to externalization. And now what do I mean by externalization here? I'm probably not going to give the most technical definition, but it is, you know, I'm going To take the thing that you're not comfortable being present with right now in you directly. And I'm going to pull it out in some way, whether in a third person reference, putting into parts, put it into versions, or maybe I take it from. Is directly you and I just make up a kind of like a typical. And it's still real, like a prototype of a person, maybe a strategy. Like whether it's withdrawal, pursue or something like that. And then we'll look at that instead of look directly at you. Yeah, but I'm still taking the part of you that I want you to look at and I'm just pulling it outside to where maybe you could take that in a little bit more directly. You can take that in from an externalized place where you couldn't take that in directly.

[B]

Yeah, like kind of like what would you say to a friend or you know, like that. Yeah, your child or. Yes, you know how you know. So then it's like they're pivoting their eyes away from themselves directly. And then, oh, I can, I can activate when it's not about me. Right. I can activate a little bit more to nurture or give. That's a possibility. I'm just missing that.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Bright. My brain flittered through. I'm like, oh, when you were talking about it, I was like, yeah, externalization. Externalization. Okay. Oh, now I feel like I can grasp where I'm at, where I've seen me do that in session. So now it's activated my body a little bit more.

[A]

Do you have it? And I don't want to put you on the spot, but like do you have a space right now you could maybe bring up where you saw it, like how you saw it in session. Of course you don't tell the case, but like how did you see it? Like right now when you were talking, what did you see?

[B]

Yeah, that. That's such a great question. Like, give me a second.

[A]

I know I knew to pull some of the energy off of you.

[B]

Pull some of the energy. Yeah, my brain is going to get scattered.

[A]

Or maybe if a therapist sat in your seat, what would they see? Nicola?

[B]

Yeah, what would they see? I think, I think they would have saw like that. That heightened, almost like a. A panic, like a desperation that they saw on. On this person, you know, and that it like almost like a overwhelm, like their system was getting overwhelmed and then being able to use like, hey, you know, we can, you know, we can pause. You know, we can pause here. Don't have to go any Further. And if this was over here, like, how would you advise this person with this? Or, you know, how, you know. And I think that kind of went in that direction of some sort. Yeah. I'm trying to be careful with my words there, but good job being respectful.

[A]

Of your clients, but thank you for what you did. Like, even so, that's another way. Not only is it the way I mentioned it was just. Is a block that maybe they couldn't take in. But then you got more specific, you might see the panic, the locked in the, like, almost like what I just saw maybe about a month ago one time, it was like, it felt like a. A wild, wild west standoff. And the pursuer was like, yeah. And I just kept saying, like, so let me make sure I'm. I really understand. Is this what you're saying? They were like, yeah, yeah. And I could just see, like the pursuer was like, I'm not budging. And I'm like. And I felt myself like, oh, this is going to be a challenge today. But then I said to myself, like, no, James, don't do that. Yeah, because you. To meet them and lock horns with that pursuer right then would have only driven them further into their protection. Take another route. And that's what this one was. It was like, oh, front door locked. Okay, I'll go around to the side door. Oh, no, not side door. I'll take the back door. Oh, that's not working. Where's the window? Somehow I don't want to leave you trapped inside. And that's the main part. It's not fighting them. It's like, I see you, and I see something very important trapped inside.

[B]

I like that. Like, and even it's like, can be collaborative, right? Like, okay, you know, let's try this. Let's try this, let's try that. The point is, I'm still staying with. With you through it. I'm not leaving you there alone. We can do this with a different. Slightly different approach, slightly try and access things in a different way. You know, I'm not leaving you to it with the same old story, with the same heightenedness, with the same stuckness that they've. Or even as you describe it, that defense, you know, or protection that comes online, like, for good reason, that it's there.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, and so if you move it, which is a fear of, even if I move this and if I look at this, what's going to happen in my world? You know, and so that sense of.

[A]

Safety there, like, wait, time out. That question hit me when you said that that might be what's happening for them, and that could be even. I don't know if that would be a form of externalization, I just think. But, like, that's a good. That's an option there to say, hey, can I just notice something? I just kind of. Everybody would recognize that as CPR catch. I just want to know. It's like, right here in this place. And then what you did would be the flipping the block kind of almost like. Because if. If you did have to stay here and you had to look at this aspect of yourself, what is it that your body wants to get away from here? Can I just stay here and see that? Like, what is your body's wanting to move away from?

[B]

Right, yeah. And I've had that. It will be more frightening, like, no one has ever showed up here. This is where I've managed myself. If I expose myself to you here, then what's going to happen? That means I have to go further into my story. I don't know if I can manage. If I go further into my story, if, you know, this kind of a thing, seeing that. So it's just like, you know, that I think for me, just being aware of that, for the client with the client, you know, understanding that there's something valuable there that feels like protecting.

[A]

Because I want to come to that example. So can we go to a direct one off of that? Because even if a client says that my next move would be like, of course, yeah, good job on you noticing that. Look at what you just did right here. You were able to tell me, like, yes, one you acknowledge, like, yep, that is happening, James. And here's all the good reasons why that is brilliant of you. You've lived this. Like, I'm asking you about it, but this is something you've lived in for a while. So how brilliant of you to catch the moment, know the risk is happening, and then you have to make a choice. Because if I do this, it could be too much. Good job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See how many validations I get in there? Yes. Right. Boom, boom, boom. But then I was like, so, hey, can we take a different route? This might be an externalization. When, like, I wonder, how old were you when you learned this lesson that if I do this, can you take me to that place with you? When you learn this valuable lesson to not do this so we can pull it off from here? Can they take me to that? And then all of a sudden, just for some reason, the fact that we moved, they're like, oh, okay. And they'll do that. But I'm like, can you catch? Y' all catch what's happening? We are still going to the same thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not. But I think it gives their brain a little bit because now it's. We're going back to how did you. How did this happen?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then the externalization would stay. So how old were you there? Eight. Okay, so can we just take a moment and look at the 8 year old you when you learned this lesson, what was it like for 8 year old you when that happened and you learned this? And it's amazing. Some clients, they can take that route and they will talk about the 8 year old then. Well, it was devastating. It was painful. It was this, it was that. Oh, then you like, that was. And no wonder why you learned to do this. And then if you see and I'm watching their eyes and I watch their body to see if like they've restabilized and I'm like, and even right now, that's what's in you. That's what's happening in the background that's making you even right here, right now want to look at it. What a brilliant strategy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've externalized and then all of a sudden using that place, they can almost own it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And talk about it. So that's one way I might use that.

[B]

I feel like that feels like it comes back to that place of integrating. Like it's okay that, oh, I went and touched it already, you know, Now I can integrate it with my now self. Yeah. But I like how that's.

[A]

Can I say that that's important, by the way? That's one of the cautions I want to get to. If you do an ex. I think if you do an externalization, I've taken a piece of them out the way. I think, sorry, y'. All. Forgive me. I used to, in my poor days of graduate school, I would try and work on our vehicles. But one of the things I learned was if you take something out, I would set all the parts to an area. Because at the end, that parts depot where I put all those parts, it needs to be empty because everything needs to go back into its proper place. So back. But when you said that, I love when you said reintegrate it. It's when I externalize it, the power of. Is that not leaving the external to me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is I want to reintegrate it into some kind of healing way or redemptive empowered way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Back into the clients of go back.

[B]

No, this is great. I was thinking like that externalizing helps to further cultivate cushions of safety and security and like deep. Even deepening these softer skills. The alliance building on all of that because you know, and then you getting permission, you know, all of those kinds of things to go. Go over to the. Like you said, the eight year old and we explore there. And then yeah, of course coming back and internal integrating, reintegrating it. Because this person in front of me that I'm looking at, that I'm seeing. Right. That's who I'm working with. Not just the eight year old. Right. And so coming back in to cultivate that together.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. And I think even you know, once again I've been talking about. I'm not trying to only place it in a trauma, you know, frame but it is important I think because if you leave it as the 8 year old then do they live their life as an 8 year old? When do they get to become the healed in a way, I guess 40 year old.

[B]

Right, Right, right.

[A]

Does that make sense or, or I shouldn't say just heal. I could say the healing 40 year old. Right.

[B]

The. Yeah, that co regulating and co creating meaning back into this moment. Right.

[A]

Can I say you just gave me another benefit of this. I never thought about that. Even when you let them have a moment to stay back and like just look at it. That in itself, I think it goes to something George would talk about too. It helps co create meaning. Was it co creating meaning? That can also be soothing. So sometimes when you say, you know what, let's pull it back and let's just talk about. Either it could be generalized to some personal archetype or something, a version of themselves maybe just talking about themselves in third person. It allows them to put a coherent narrative around it sometimes and why it's difficult and help understand that might give you another entry point point as a therapist. But also the benefit for them is it does give them some space to look at like oh, I never. Because I'm living in it. I don't get to see it like that.

[B]

Right. I like that because I'm living in it. I don't get to see it like that.

[A]

So it's almost. It allows them. This is what also reminds me of what the way sue described why she loved reflection. That's also what you're doing with a reflection. It's like holding a mirror up to the client so they can see their lived experience. And I think that's Also what you're doing with. To me, the way I'm talking about externalization, by the way. And once again, I guess the reason why I'm giving this to you all is just to have another option. And that's one thing I like. And I tell people it's not that, you know, George or Ryan or I or any of the many great EFT trainers and therapists. It's not just that they're better, you know, in a way, like somehow they have something that nobody else can do. It's that they have options when they hit moments.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they know how to kind of go into the bag of their tools and try and use the different options at their disposal. And I'm just saying this is another option of externalization.

[B]

Yeah. I like that. That part where it's like, oh, I could pull this out. And I know what you. You talked about fixing a car. There's a tool that I need for this thing, this part, and I pull it out and I know what, like, I'm using it. I know how to use it or try to use it. Right. And then being able to catch, you know, okay, it worked like this. It didn't work like this. And to. To be able to nuance with, you know, how well did that intervention work and, you know, check in, how is it relating with the person as I navigate with them?

[A]

Yeah, that's good, Nicola. So let me. Let me do this, too. I want to give some different examples. I think y' all have heard it. I'm not talking. I'm not going to give.

[B]

Hold on, hold on for a second. I chuckled. I want to say why I chuckled. He picked up the phone and started taking a photo. So it caught me off guard and I chuckled. So not. It's not attached to what I was saying previously. It felt confusing after. After you started to move on. I was like, I don't want the listeners to be confused. Like, that's the action that happened just now. So welcome.

[A]

Good job. Being aware of the process in real time and calling it out. Good job, Nicola.

[B]

You're welcome.

[A]

I am not editing that out. That's Sting. And that's good. I like, look.

[B]

Cheers.

[A]

Good security.

[B]

Right now. I feel awkward.

[A]

Nah. But no, hey, back in. But I want to give some examples real quick. So I've said it already. Like, you could talk about a version of themselves, maybe. And when I say version, maybe it's a story that happened and you know that they've grown and changed. So, like, when I talk about, like, people's ages or maybe it was in a time when they experienced something, but they've grown since then. So that's when I say versions. So can you take me back to that eight year old you. That's a version or that you. When you were in that place. No. A couple weeks ago, you didn't know what to do, you didn't know what to say. But now you have a little bit more experience and wisdom. So what would you say now, knowing what you know now, when you look at that part of you. So it's still, you see how it's still externalized in a way. Yeah, that's one. Or generalized to society. You have to be very. That one. You have to be careful. One I think you have to be careful of some of cultural dynamics you don't want to take in. Like almost in a way paint over the minority experience with a general population. Just something to be cautious of. I. I think about it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I might say something like find.

[B]

The, the culture they're. Yes, they're within.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. So just a caution. So. But when I think about it's like, so hey, I get it. You know, as people, you know, we tend to have moments where when things get scary and they get hard, we're going to either shut down, lash out or a combination of the. By the way, I got that phrase from Leanne that, you know, so I just want to stay here with you though. You know, when you even see that pattern happen in the world to maybe people you care about around you, I'm just kind of curious like, you know, but once again, I'm just trying to find another way to externalize or I do this when with my pursuit and withdrawals, which I don't call them that in therapy, but I'll say something like, hey man, I thank you. You know, and you kind of have this, this pattern or this strategy that when things get really escalated, what you tend to do is find a way to kind of turn the volume down. And usually what I see with people in that strategy, the reason why they're doing is not because they don't care, they actually do care a lot and they can feel that moment rising. And then they say if things get too bad, my partner could be hurt, they might be disappointed, I could fail them and I don't want to do that to them. But then also when that side does that, there's this part when they try to do the best, they still end up feeling that. So that's something I've learned kind of from that strategy and style. But that might not be your story, but that is something I've seen in other people. But the whole time you see what I'm doing, I'm watching them to see if anything lands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I'm saying I'm watching them, I'm not just talking. I'm watching them to see if they head. Not like.

[B]

Yeah, I like that way of creating that distance.

[A]

But I'm curious, though, does any of that resonate for you?

[B]

Yeah, it's less. Almost like it's less shaming or what could land as shaming. Not that as a therapist, you're trying to shame them. You know, it's not like, why do you shut down? Right. That's direct.

[A]

Direct. Yes. Good example.

[B]

But then what? The example that you just use, it helps to soften, it helps to take it out. And I've. I noticed these in this kind of a pattern. Right. And so it draws that out. And like you said, you're watching them to see if something shifts, if it's. If it even heightens something in them or gives a sense of aha or oh, a sense of understanding, even for their mate. That's with, you know, the person's with them. Could even hear you say it like that. Right. I love that. Sometimes as you're doing intervention, it kind of lends into the. The, The. The other partner being able to borrow from the moment what's going on. Yeah. They can like lessen that blame. If they're at home and you're looking at their spouse. It's like, oh, let me not lean in too hard. My therapist kind of did this weird thing.

[A]

Well, you thought about.

[B]

My brain just kind of goes, but.

[A]

Which is why we like having you on this podcast. But even when you're saying that too, it may. You made me think of another thought right. When you started talking. Is that it gives them a workable or a safe workable distance. Yeah. From the vulnerable. It temporarily. There you go. It temporarily gives them a safe enough workable distance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From the present vulnerability is what you're trying to do.

[B]

Yeah. And so, James, you saying you kind of reflect with them like this, and then you're watching to see if something heightens, then what do you do from. From there as it's created a safe distance. Then how do we go back in for the integrating piece now that.

[A]

Good saying that, Nicola, because remember, there's so many options now that come off of this. And the reason why I'm even in this kind of intervention space is because I was On a track. And then it was. Or as George would say, I was on a path and I found out that path was closed. Or George Ryan talks about. So this was a close. Right then. Now, if I see it, this is where George would come in. Right. He liked this. He won't hear this episode. But then if I do my intervention and the path opens up, I need to watch for that. If the path opens, going back to what you said, stop the externalization and bring it back home. Bring it back to the heart and body that's in the room.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

So. So then that might be like. So then if I start seeing it land, I might reflect. So I see you nod in your head. I see this water come up in your eyes as we look at that out there. I'm just curious what's coming. What is that? What is that bringing up in you now for that version of you, for that younger you, for that, you know, whatever.

[B]

That might be the story you heard or just whichever. Yeah.

[A]

And then. Or is it does. Or it might just be the check like. So I see that. And then I go from the general story. Does any of that resonate as true for you? Are there any to help people who do a lot of cultural work? Are there any adaptations you need to make to that to make it fit your. Your truth and your lived experience?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So anyway. So though. So that's. So it might be that. It could be that reflection. Then there's some validation. Then it might be either I go back to where I was because it really meant something and I need to go back to it. Maybe I'm in stage two and I'm trying to work with their negative view of self. That's a very specific target. So then I might go back to that specific place. Or I might be in step seven, where I'm getting them to reach for an attachment need. So that's so specific. I would have to go back to that specific thing.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

But it might say, you know what? This brought up something new and better. I'm going to pivot and stay with this because there's something more here. And eventually everyone should know what the answer is going to be. Eventually that's going to go into some kind of an enactment. Or if it's an ifit, some kind of encounter is what it's going to go to, because now we got the experience. Now we're going to put into behavior, into a behavioral response or to a behavioral kind of action to change it.

[B]

Sorry, you were trying it on. Doing Something.

[A]

There you go. That's a better way to say it.

[B]

That's good. Now I was going to say, okay, so you kind of go back into that specific place that you previously were before you had to externalize. Or.

[A]

That's one option.

[B]

One option. And then. Or if it kind of brings up something. Oh, okay. Let's pivot towards what just came up.

[A]

And you know what? I'm gonna give y' all another one. People don't. I might even put both of them out there in front. So, hey, we were here. Which path do you want me? Do you think you have openness and we go back to that? Or there's this new thing that's coming up. Which one does your body think we need to stay with? That would make a difference for you?

[B]

Ah, I like that.

[A]

Then that's celebration. That's right. And also, once again, it makes them feel safe and empowered. And if you're working with a trauma client, what do they need? They need to feel like they have some power and autonomy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like. But it's. You do. See, we're gonna do something. You can pick which something we're gonna do, but we're doing something.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

And then even if they say, I can't do either. Oh, okay. And even can you say that right now, like, this is too overwhelming. It's too much. And I can't even do either option right now. That's how overwhelming it is. If it's in with their partner. And then for the partners, like, I still. That's still great. Somebody said, but what if they don't do anything? That's great, because then I'm going to the. I'm gonna say, good job on what you did. Thank you for what you're able to do, and thank you for how you even did. Take some space and look at this from a different angle. But it was too much for your body today. And good job letting us know that and sharing that with your partner. Thank you. Then I'm gonna go to the partner, says, what is it like in your body to see how hard this moment is? Like, it even happened right in front of our eyes that once again, their body, the negative cycle, said, don't let this in. Don't look at this. This could be bad. What is it like for you to see and what does it bring up in your body on their behalf as you see the hard work they're doing right here, right now in front of you? And that's how I would set it up. Even for the response back to some of that externalization work or if they just really get bogged down there.

[B]

Good.

[A]

All right, everybody, once again, thank you for letting us just talk about, you know, another option in a way to help people on their leading edge. Because, you know, that's where they need us, you know, because that's where what's bringing them in. Because right in that place, on their leading edge, if they're able to do work there, their life changes, their relationships change, where the relationship with themselves, their relationship with others change. So thank you for letting us be with you. Thank you, Nicola.

[B]

Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at pushtheleadingedge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook @ryan raynaprofessionaltraining and on his website, ryanrayna training.com youm can follow James on Facebook and Instagram @dochawklpc. You can also check out his website dochawklpc.com sa.