133. Special Guest Episode: Leanne Shares About Her and Sue's EFT Trauma Book

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Episode: 133. Special Guest Episode: Leanne Shares About Her and Sue's EFT Trauma Book
Air Date: December 16, 2025
Guest: Dr. Leanne Campbell
Main Theme:
A deep dive into the creation, intent, and application of the new "EFT and Trauma" book co-authored by Leanne Campbell and the late Dr. Sue Johnson. The episode explores leading edges in practicing Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with trauma clients, the writing process of the book, the caregiving system in therapy, and concrete advice for clinicians.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Honoring the EFT Community and Leadership [01:10–03:45]

• Gratitude for Therapists: James Hawkins (Host) and Leanne Campbell express mutual appreciation for the dedication of therapists and leaders, especially following Sue Johnson’s passing.
  • "Thank you for always having the heart of us as therapists and our clients in the front of your heart." — James Hawkins [01:31]
• Leanne's Response: Leanne highlights the global spread and strength of the EFT community.
  • "So many people came together and come together, and this model continues to swell around the globe." — Leanne Campbell [02:12]

2. The "Leading Edge" for Seasoned Therapists [03:45–06:37]

• Clarifying and Deepening the Model: Leanne discusses her ongoing work to clarify what EFT is and make it more transparent for learners and professionals.
  • "We wrote the primer, we did the same in the trauma book to offer moment by moment, commentary about what we were doing and why, and getting really specific and clear." — Leanne Campbell [03:50]
• Continuous Nuance and Growth: Both hosts reflect on how EFT keeps even seasoned therapists learning.
  • "EFT always keeps you sitting on the edge of your seat to be in the present moment, emerging experience." — James Hawkins [03:01]
• Caregiving Response in Couples Therapy: Emphasis on engaging the caregiving system of the client’s partner, not just the therapist.
  • "A response from the therapist is like a flashlight but a response from their partner is like a stadium floodlight." — Quoting Sue Johnson, via James Hawkins [05:05]

3. Trusting the Caregiving System [06:23–06:37]

• Trusting in the natural caregiving impulses within the therapy room builds stronger connection.
  • "Trust the process" is really "trust the caregiving system…emotion is alive in the room and there’s a possibility of connection." — Leanne Campbell [06:24]

4. Behind the Scenes: Writing the EFT and Trauma Book with Sue [07:00–08:44]

• Process of Collaboration: Leanne describes working with Sue as inspiring, intense, and clarifying, marked by their deep focus on trauma.
  • "It was, you know, as you'll read in the acknowledgments and the preface, it was well underway before we lost a giant in the field of psychotherapy and our dear Sue. But, yeah, it was amazing. I loved it." — Leanne Campbell [07:30]

5. Validating Emotional Experience vs. Factual Responses [08:44–10:08]

• Key Principle: Emotional bids in session should be met with emotional attunement, not data or reasoning.
  • "If I make a bid to you or I share my emotion to you and you respond back to me with fact or reason, it's all as though you did not hear me." — Sue Johnson, paraphrased by James Hawkins [09:22]
• Staying in the “same channel” is crucial to meeting clients’ needs.

6. The Therapist as Temporary Attachment Figure [10:31–11:42]

• Avoiding Retraumatization: Therapists should use themselves as secure attachment figures, tuning to clients’ windows of tolerance.
  • "A big part of the answer is in us and using ourselves as temporary attachment figures…keep our clients at their leading edge without overshooting or undershooting their window of tolerance." — Leanne Campbell [10:36]
• Broader Goal: Emotion links self and experience, serving both as target and agent of change.

7. Bringing Yourself into the Process [12:37–16:27]

• Safety First: Leanne emphasizes the primary importance of creating a secure alliance, continually checking in on client safety, especially when working with trauma.
• Therapist’s Felt Sense as Guide: She relies on tuning into her own nervous system responses to client reactivity, using that self-awareness to guide interventions.
  • _"When they are reactive, you use your felt sense of their reactivity to guide your next intervention." — James Hawkins [13:47]
  • "I tune into my felt experience, and then I use that to guide my next intervention." — Leanne Campbell [13:53]
• Going With, Not Directing: Leanne often uses language such as “I’m with you” and “Can I go there with you?” to co-regulate and support clients.
  • "My therapist isn't sending me to go do something. My therapist is going with me to do something." — James Hawkins [16:04]

8. Structuring Trauma Work and Pacing [17:11–22:26]

• Having a Map & Method: Leanne reassures new therapists that EFT provides both structure and flexibility to proceed at an appropriate pace.
  • "There is a path, that we have a map and a method and to give ourselves space and grace to move through that process." — Leanne Campbell [17:13]
• Respecting and Stretching the Window of Tolerance:
  • "We always want to respect the window of tolerance while we try to stretch the window of tolerance. It's a both and." — James Hawkins [18:45]
• Indicators for Deepening: Leanne lists key indicators, like a client’s capacity, process observations, and her own nervous system, as cues for safety and readiness.

9. Transparency and Agency in Trauma Sessions [22:12–23:35]

• Transparency: Being open about the therapist’s reasoning gives clients agency and predictability.
  • "Transparency gives agency…Especially for traumatized clients, somebody took away, in a non-transparent way, their agency." — James Hawkins [22:26]
• Backing Up If Needed: Leanne uses interventions like slowing down, validation, and slicing experience into smaller parts when signs of flooding arise.

10. Validating Trauma Responses as Strategies, Not Flaws [24:43–28:53]

• Normalization and Psychoeducation through Validation:
  • "Validation is our form of psychoeducation…that response has a history outside the relationship, which takes some of the blame that person has often felt off." — Leanne Campbell [24:43]
• Empathic Reframes Encourage Compassion: Using developmental and contextual language helps the non-traumatized partner shift from blame to compassion.

11. Hope, Resilience, and Identity Beyond Trauma [29:33–34:33]

• If You Remember Only One Thing:
  • "Hope and belief of the power and potential of human connection and healing…That's what Sue would say, too, I think." — Leanne Campbell [29:33]
• Sue’s Message to Trauma Survivors:
  • "It's not you. You are not your trauma. Your trauma does not need to define you…Our clients say it to us. I am not my trauma. My trauma no longer defines me." — Leanne Campbell [33:10]

12. The Book and Launch Details [34:33–36:01]

• Book Launch: January 8, 2026 in Victoria, BC, in-person and online, with prominent EFT leaders celebrating Sue Johnson’s last formal publication.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Caregiving System:
  • "Trust the caring system…emotion is alive in the room and there's a possibility of connection. We can 100% rely on that." — Leanne Campbell [06:24]
• On Therapist’s Presence:
  • "You bring yourself forward so well…when you say it begins with us, what does that look like for Leanne, in your way of working with EFT and trauma?" — James Hawkins [12:02]
• On Validation and Psychoeducation:
  • "Validation is our form of psychoeducation. Really. When we validate…it offers the partner an understanding that this response has a history outside the relationship." — Leanne Campbell [24:43]
• On Hope and the Book’s Core Message:
  • "Hope and belief of the power and potential of human connection and healing…and that's what Sue would say, too." — Leanne Campbell [29:33]
• On Identity and Trauma:
  • "It's not you. You are not your trauma. Your trauma does not need to define you…my trauma no longer defines me. I can be separate from what happened to me." — Leanne Campbell [33:10]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 01:10 | Introduction of Leanne & gratitude for EFT community | | 03:45 | Leanne describes her “leading edge” — clarity and specificity in EFT | | 05:05 | Stadium floodlight metaphor for partner’s caregiving | | 07:00 | Leanne on writing the Trauma book with Sue | | 09:22 | On responding to emotional bids with emotion, not facts | | 10:36 | Therapist as temporary attachment figure for trauma clients | | 13:47 | Using therapist’s felt experience to guide interventions | | 16:04 | “I’m with you” — therapist’s co-presence in trauma work | | 17:13 | Giving space and grace — pacing trauma work | | 18:45 | Balancing respect and stretch of the window of tolerance | | 22:26 | Transparency enables client agency | | 24:43 | Reframing trauma responses as strategies, not flaws | | 29:33 | If you remember one thing: Hope and human connection | | 33:10 | Sue Johnson’s core trauma message: "You are not your trauma." | | 34:33 | Book’s release and launch party details | | 36:01 | Leanne’s final gratitude and closing remarks |

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Summary Table: Practical Takeaways for EFT Therapists

| Principle/Insight | Application in Practice | |------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Therapist as secure attachment figure | Use self-awareness and regulate presence to be a “safe haven” for traumatized clients | | Validate, don’t pathologize | Frame trauma responses as adaptive survival strategies, not flaws | | Move at the client’s pace | Respect and gently stretch the window of tolerance; be transparent about process and rationale | | Use self as instrument | Regularly check in with your own nervous system and let it guide interventions | | Stay in the emotional channel | Respond to emotional bids with emotion, avoiding factual or rationalizing replies | | Offer hope and resilience | Infuse sessions with belief in human connection and healing, and reflect resilience wherever possible |

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Final Words

The discussion is a rich interplay between honoring the legacy of Sue Johnson, the practical and emotional nuances of doing trauma work in EFT, and Leanne Campbell’s unique insights into the therapist’s role as both mapmaker and traveling companion. The book emerges as both a practical guide and a beacon of hope, resilience, and community in the ongoing evolution of emotionally focused therapy.

If you take away only one message:
“Hope and belief of the power and potential of human connection and healing.” — Leanne Campbell [29:33]

Transcript

[A]

All right. You know, one of my favorite books by sue, by far, was her EFTN trauma book. So I'm excited. Not only is this kind of a time of year when we kind of celebrate and connect with friends and family, we get the new publication coming out here soon of the EFT and Trauma book. We'll talk more about that in this show. And we have a special guest with us today.

[B]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rayna. And EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[A]

Yes, indeed, we are going to be talking about EFT and trauma. And today I have a special guest with me. The one and only Leigh Ann Campbell is here with us to talk about her new text. Let's welcome her.

[C]

That's so nice. Thank you for having me.

[A]

It really is an honor. Leanne, I just want to, you know, as always, it's customary for us on our show, we like to start off and thank therapists and the listeners because, you know, once again, in our profession, you know, we don't always get to be celebrated openly sometimes. And our work, we go into hard places with clients and we close the door. And sometimes only our clients and us know the sacrifices we make and the hard work. So I think today, you know, I was going to thank therapists, but I don't want to put you on the spot, Leigh Ann, but thank you. Thank you, Leigh Ann. Thank you for in a time that was very pivotal for ISEF with the passing of Sue. Thank you for you, Gail, John, and the board and all the other many trainers for the ways you stepped in. You took care of us as trainers. You took care of the community leaders. And, you know, I know there could be different frustrations. But thank you for always having the heart of us as therapists and our clients and in the front of your heart. So thank you, Leanne.

[C]

Oh, my goodness. Jane, you are so beautiful and sincere. Always. Thank you. It honestly is a pleasure and a privilege and an honor, and I'm so grateful about the many ways that so many people came together and come together, and this model continues to swell around the globe. And so, truly, I am grateful.

[A]

Yeah, there you go. That's it. Thank you, Leanne. I think that's your. Thank you. You know, well, we're going to definitely talk about your new text, the new book that you and sue worked on. But, you know, I want to start a new tradition, and it makes sense that I'm going to start it here with Leanne. And sometimes Ryan and I will talk about this, but since this is the leading edge, we want you to know everybody has a leading edge. And I don't care who you are, how long you've been doing eft. In the intro, my wife Nicola always says, EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists, because EFT always keeps you sitting on the edge of your seat to be in the present moment, emerging experience. So we're always getting better and thinking about things. At the last trainers retreat, talking to Leigh Ann and George and other great dynamic EFT trainers from around the world about getting more focus in efit, even though we all feel comfortable in what we're doing, we're just trying to get the nuance of it. But here's what I want. Here's a c. Here's a question I want to ask Leanne Campbell. What is your leading edge in EFT right now that you are working on, and how are you going about working on that, Leanne?

[C]

Well, I love this question, James, and truly I shared this with Sue a lot in recent years. I think our leading edge was really to get clearer about the model, get clear about what we were doing. One of the ways that we wrote the primer, we did the same in the trauma book to offer moment by moment, commentary about what we were doing and why, and getting really specific and clear and. And honestly, it's you, James and George and Ryan and the SV team and all of you who are really kind of pushing me and I push sue, too, together. We felt that and appreciated that, that it helps us to get clearer, make the model more accessible.

[A]

Oh, thank you. You know, I just, I. That's the part that always impressed me about sue is she didn't create an environment around her to say, only verify what I want to hear. She really created environment and team around her to say, challenge me, push me. And what is the research actually saying? Yeah. So thank you, Leanne. No, great. That's great. So, yeah, I would say, too. I think I'm in that place too, Leanne. I think, you know, people who have been hearing me talk, I am. The thing that I'm getting better at is inviting the is. Is exploring and, and looking at what's going on with the caregiving response. Because I love that quote by Sue. It's, you know, a response from the therapist is like a flashlight But a response from their partner is like a stadium floodlight. And so how many times am I trying to put burdens on me to help, particularly when I'm working with couples where I'm trying to rescue them out instead of saying, hey, I'm wondering what's happening in the heart of your partner as they witness this place with you? Like, what's going on in your body as you see your partner's fear or pain or struggle right here, right now? And what is your body wanting to do, staying in that place and directly inviting the caregiving response to either one? Get a response or it might turn into a block. But that still is information for me.

[C]

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. And it's again in conversation with you and with George and with Ryan that I'm really way more attuned to that and thinking about that in a different way. And I think it was in our conversation in October where I just came to me that really, when we say trust the process.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Saying trust the caregiving system.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

That emotion is alive in the room and there's a possibility of connection. We can 100% rely on that.

[A]

Well, I could go on and on about that, but here's why I have to have discipline, is because you have a new book coming out, Eft and Trauma. So here's what I want to ask you. If you could sit with a newer eft. No, I'm going to skip on that question for a moment. Here's why I want to go. What was it like working on that text with Sue?

[C]

Yeah. Inspiring and clarifying. Yeah. And exciting. Exhilarating. I won't say all encompassing, because we had so many goals and tasks at hand. And in fact, the trauma book took a back seat at times when we were really focused on filming and trainings and developing other aspects of efit. But it was, you know, as you'll read in the acknowledgments and the preface, it was well underway before we lost a giant in the field of psychotherapy and our dear Sue. But, yeah, it was amazing. I loved it. And we've always been interested and focused on trauma, even when and couple therapy was at the forefront in the early days of the inception of the model. And trauma has always been near and dear to me. And then when sue moved to the west coast of Canada with John and her family, she became involved in our practice. And her sign is down here. I have a photo with George from October that I'll send to you after this. And, yeah, so we really had so many Conversations about trauma. And I think think in the backdrop of her goals was updating the trauma book, which is also one of my favorites. Absolutely. And yeah, it was. Took a bit of time, but here we now have it just, you know, in a week before her birthday.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Thank you for that. You know, one of my favorite lines from that text, it even helps me when I do, when I use like this EFT framework around issues around, you know, oppression or marginalization, particularly around race, is like, sometimes people from minority minoritized or minority or oppressed people groups, when they try to speak out about pain, sometimes people respond back with like facts or data. Well, you know, the GDP or this and that. And 500 years, I'm like, wait, hold on. And I remember in Sue's book, she's like, she. I'm paraphrasing here. It's like, if I make a bid to you or I share my emotion to you and you respond back to me with fact or reason, it's all as though you did not hear me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because an emotional bid is not like you can't. Like you don't soothe an emotional bid with like a factual type just data answer. This goes back to Sue's ar. It's are you accessible? Are you responsive? And are you being willing to be emotionally engaged?

[C]

But I love what you're saying and I know that we're trying to be disciplined, but we can't do it. Conversation about the caregiving system, the only way we can reliably trust it is to keep people in the same channel. And what I hear you saying, yeah, people are responding from a different channel.

[A]

Oh, I like that. Another clarify. You gotta be in this. You got. You have to respond in the same channel if you're gonna meet that signal. Okay, so let me get asked this then. What do you see now is with this text or just kind of where you are and you know, what do you see is like, kind of like that cutting edge or that leading edge place in regards to EFT and maybe our growth in trump trauma work.

[C]

I think the question that comes up repeatedly is how do I help my clients move through trauma without re traumatizing them? And I think a big part of the answer is in us and using ourselves as temporary attachment figures and really getting clear about how we sing this song and dance, this dance of attunement that really helps us keep our clients at their leading edge without overshooting or undershooting their window of tolerance or their capacity, whatever term you want to use, but always Moving them towards stretching it. Because if you think about emotion, well, in the trauma book, we wrote about emotion linking self and experience. And it's the, as we've always said, the key target and agent of change. So helping clients to move into their internal experience, begin to know it and trust it and broaden it is what helps clients essentially come home to themselves.

[A]

Wow. That, you know, in a way, I love the clarity in that answer. And then the beginning part of it shouldn't surprise me that, Leanne, you do such a phenomenal job. And I want, like, you and Katharine Ream, y' all have been mentors to me, and y' all do a lot of trauma work. And I didn't realize how much of an influence, like, people as James, like, you're always organizing, James. You're letting your client know where you are and where you're going and why you're doing. And, like, where did that come from? And I started review. I was like, oh, because you and Katherine always, like, with a traumatized nervous system, you have to become predictable one. And then I love that in the beginning of your answer here, you said, it really starts with us. And you do that with your clients who are in really traumatized situation. Leanne, you bring yourself forward so well. So I know it and I've seen it. But for our listeners, when you say it begins with us, what does that look like for Leanne, in your way of working with EFT and trauma? How do you bring your. Like, how does it begin with you?

[C]

Well, I think first and foremost, of course, creating safety, a safe haven, secure base alliance, absolutely is the clinical priority. And also never taking it for granted, always tuning in, checking in with our clients, always. But especially when we work with trauma, what was that like connecting with our clients toward the end of the session and helping them transition into the world, whatever that looks like for them. And for some of them, it might be ongoing, like, bit of exposure, for example, even working with first responders, that it would be the case potentially. And then, of course. Well, maybe not of course, but because I think it's more and more. I think this is part of my leading edge, is really recognizing how clients and couples are the perfect example of this. How, you know, for example, with a couple who is reactive, I tune into my felt experience, and then I use that to guide my next intervention.

[A]

Whoa. That. That was a sentence. You all. That was a key sentence is when they are reactive, you use your felt sense of their reactivity to guide your next intervention. That's a. That's Y' all write that phrase down. Wow. And I. And I like that. So when you say that, like you say you use your felt experience, what does that mean? What does that look like for you?

[C]

Well, for example, I imagine what. Well, I'm in the room, so I know what it feels like. And instead of, you know, addressing it in any other way, I slow everything down, use my voice. Ask the partner in that moment when your partner and I tune into every single process element that I know has impacted me, that I. The look in the eye, the raised eyebrow, the tone of the voice, the everything. And I'm doing it for two reasons. One is to validate the partner on the receiving end, and the second is to increase awareness of the partner who is delivering that, because that's their nervous system reacting without them knowing. They're reacting most typically in the context of trauma.

[A]

So let me get that. That's a good one. So it begins with us. And what you do is you key into all the factors that are touching or awakening your nervous system, and you just make it super explicit, for one, even the person feeling it, but also the other person on the receiving end to make it clear. And I have seen you do that. You're like, I see that with you. I feel that right here, right now, even as your voice drops. And one of your favorite phrases, Liam, that I like is when people are really struggling. Here's why. I've seen you do it. And I'm with you. Can I go there with you? Can I be with you? I'm right here with you. And when you send them to encounters or enactments, you're like, can I turn with you? You, as you share this, Can I go into that scary room where that little girl, can I be with her? And there's something about that with, with. With. And you just keep saying it. And I think it just. It hits the nervousness because it says to the client, my therapist isn't sending me to go do something. My therapist is going with me to do something. I don't know. That's just something that's always stuck with me.

[C]

Yeah. And I think it's attachment science and, of course, the work of Bowlby and Sue and others who remind us that nobody encounters vulnerability alone. And I think, you know, the focus of your work as well was success and vulnerability. And as I understand it, success is only success when we're not alone. We can never be vulnerable alone.

[A]

Ah, there you go. We have to. We're going to change our tagline. Success is only success when you're not alone. I love it, Georgia. Like that one. Can I transition to the next question? Because that just hits me. Even your. Your comfortability, that's something I've always appreciated about you, Leanne. You don't keep your clients distress away from. One time when you were on the show, I said, leanne, when things get really reactive, what's going on inside of you, you're like, bring it towards me, all your anger and frustration. I'm like, that's a bold statement. But, you know, when I'm thinking about is a new maybe EFT therapist that's working with trauma and they're getting overwhelmed in the work with trauma. What do you want them to hear from this book that might help them?

[C]

Yeah, I think that there is a path, that we have a map and a method and to give ourselves space and grace to move through that process. And that if we think about what we're doing in E fit, we talk about expanding the self in EFT more generally, we talk about moving our clients into a felt sense of security with themselves and others. And when our clients have lived in a world that has been dangerous or somehow colored by deprivation and oppression, marginalization, it makes perfect sense that it's going to take time and that we can pace the process accordingly. And yeah, in the context of trauma, oftentimes people will do a piece of work, they'll take a break, and it makes perfect sense. Makes sense. If you. We think again. Attachment theory is developmental theory and a theory of personality that people move and grow and then they integrate and consolidate. Our model is set up for that, but I think we don't always. I think sometimes we feel a sense of urgency.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That maybe puts pressure on us because we, you know, we can feel and know our clients pain and we want to help them move through it. And I think just to really trust the process and to respect, I think the time it takes.

[A]

I like that. I like. You said that when we did our intergenerational trauma course, you said something of, we always want to respect the window of tolerance while we try to stretch the window of tolerance. It's a. Both and Right. Oh, that's good. I love that.

[C]

And we have a. I mean, I think that is the question that comes up most is how do we stretch it without. You know, of course, we're all in this profession. We don't want to do harm. We want to help our clients and be of benefit.

[A]

Mm. And once again, I know it might be different for, you know, different therapists. The therapist client to Client situation. Situation. But just I want to stay there. So, like, what are some indicators that tells Leanne, Like, I think it's safe to deepen. Or maybe it's not clear like, it is safe. It's like, maybe I just have to create some safety. But, like, what are indicators that tells you, like, it's okay to deepen right now with this maybe person that's dealing with trauma?

[C]

Yeah, I think I pay attention to window of tolerance within the session, but also in the person's broader sociocultural family context, where, you know, all the. And we do that, we tune into that with care, like we've talked about together, James, many times. And then within the session, I pay again, I pay close attention to what's happening inside of me, and I use that as a guide and an instrument in the process. And I pay very close attention to all the process elements that help us to know where our clients are emotionally and relationally. If we're working with couples, I pay attention to the partner in the room at the degree to which that person is a resource in efit, I pay close attention to the capacity of the client, what's happening. And when I listen to myself, I find myself over and over and over again getting emotion up and running in moves one and two. First ordering it and assembling it, and then deepening it and then letting the client know. Transparency offers agency. So letting the client know that this is what we're doing. Sue talked about that as well. That, you know, the best surgeon won't just, you know, or the anesthesiologist is going to tell you what's going to happen.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And. And then inviting the person to stay there as long as they possibly can.

[A]

Whoa, that's a good one. So I like that. I want to catch that sequence. You. The order assembly deepen. But. And then also you. You're all. You're not only you paying attention to them, but you're paying attention to what's happening in you. What a holistic. And I hope the reason why I want to draw that in when I go to trainings, you know, and I get why people are asking, like, what do I do to the client? It's like, hey, before you want to just do something to the client, don't skip your nervous system. Your nervous system is always trying to inform you about what's happening in the room, just like we teach our clients that. And so the best part of that's going to inform your next intervent is your own nervous system. If you skip your nervous System you're behind on your next intervention is something I've said. So that's about the third time I've heard you say, I pay attention to me, I pay attention to me. I pay attention to me. You don't just skip over yourself, which is probably really huge in trauma work. Yeah.

[C]

Yes. And if you feel quote, unquote resistance, I always offer an explanation for why we're doing what we're doing. So then the client has agency and predictability.

[A]

I like that. Transparency gives agency. We just did a podcast with Nicole on Transparent. I wish I would have had that quote, but I liked it. And I got that from Lisa. Lisa always pushed me when she said, james, just be transparent. If you're having an emotional reaction in session, just make it known to your client. And one, it'll help your body restabilize, but it also lets them be in the process with you. But I like yours. Now, transparency gives agency, which is really big for the traumatizing because somebody took away, in a non transparent way took away their agency.

[C]

Exactly. And then also lots of summaries and reflections offers us an anchor and our clients.

[A]

Okay, well, that definitely took care of one of my questions because Leanne, you are so brave. And I think you said one time, sue said, leanne, you are sure impatient because you are ready to go for that emotion. But even here. But I see now because I'm going to say, how do you help regulate that sense of bravery that you have to welcome the distress with deepening them too quick. But part of it is you're paying attention to them and to you to not go too far too fast is what you're doing there.

[C]

Exactly. And we have a whole host of interventions that can allow us to back up and slow down reflections, validation, slicing it thinner, processing, you know, the part of you that can move forward in this way, that can take it in the part of you that cannot.

[A]

Okay, well, I think those questions help me get it overall. Let me make, let me say this too. Let me ask, like I want to get into the practical part maybe of this interview for a moment and hit some of those trauma questions I've, I've heard on the road. So, you know, one that kind of comes up is you want to be careful of not making the session and the struggles in the couple's relationship. You don't want to make it about, oh, well, the trauma. The trauma, like always, like the trauma is the problem and the other partner just has to be there to help the person who's gone through trauma to help them heal, you know? So how do you help couples maybe have an empathic understanding of trauma and that trauma responses are not really character flaws, but they are survival strategies.

[C]

Yeah. In one of the Q and A's I was doing with sue, we would riff. It came to me that validation is our form of psychoeducation. Really. When we validate the reactivity or the response of one partner, that offers a way of seeing that behavior or that response through the lens of attachment, which can be validating for the partner, but it also offers for the person. Sorry. But it also offers the partner and understanding that this reactivity or this response or this way of being and relating has a history outside the relationship, which takes some of the blame that that person has often felt off. And it engenders compassion for both partners.

[A]

Oh, that is good. Can I want to share an example? I had this maybe a couple months ago in a marriage intensive. And the person, in a way. Let's see. I want to keep this story general in a way, but I mean, this one, we hear a lot in counseling of being that young child and their emotions being kind of felt attacked and they were made to feel super small, like, you're too much. And just. And I remember, like, the other partner was like, I can never figure it out. She's all. With this and she isn't that. And like, I'm like, whew. So. And then the other. And then the partner, she's like, yeah, I don't. I don't want to have to tell you what I need. You should just figure it out. And I can never figure it out every time. I guess I'm just always. And I said, hey, can I try on what I think I'm seeing? Which is, by the way, a Sue line, if anybody's ever heard. Sue's like, can I try on what I think I'm seeing? I was like, I just picture that little girl growing up in her home. And she would have pain and she would have needs that would come up, but when they would come up and she would express them, instead of being met with comfort, she was met with conflict that told she was too bad and too much. And not only was that. And so now in that little girl learned that rep after rep after rep, that to have need and vocalize it, not only are you already hurting, it could bring more pain and rejection. And so what now tell me if I'm getting this right. It is so intuitive of you now to not take the risk to put it out there so directly because My guess and tell me if I'm getting this right, that if he could guess at it, he could figure it out, then maybe it shows he's willing and it's a little bit safer. So I get the good reasons why you don't want to tell him. You're not trying to be difficult. You're not playing the game of, like, the. Where you put the ball under the cup and guess where it is. You're not trying to do that.

[C]

That.

[A]

But this is your strategy to not have your heart be hurt where it's already hurting. Am I getting kind of close? And she was like, yes. And he looked at me like, I never looked at it that way. And so I. It was. Would that be an example of maybe saying, like, hey, this is a strategy? And then it did evoke empathy for the partner. And also it got her to have some more, like, oh. Because I did say to her, but if we stay here and you never say it, then you're gonna have to be just relying on him figuring it out. And what is that like for you waiting for him to figure it out while you trying to protect your heart? She's like, well, that's been difficult. So I get why it's hard to do something different. I get it.

[C]

That is so beautiful. And that evokes compassion, the antidote to all the shame and blame that so commonly accompanies trauma.

[A]

Thank you, Leanne. Well, thank you for helping setting examples. But is some of that scene work sometimes? And even, like, I like when we at the trainers retreat, we talked about not just parts, but I like your use of versions, because even that helped her. I said, hey, there was this version of you developmentally at that time that this is all she knew. But now there's another version of you that's older, wiser, and stronger, but still has the fears of that little girl that are present. What would the older, wiser version of you say? And that was another one that helped her.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Nice. Thank you for the versions. Language, Leigh. And that helped me out big time.

[C]

Yes. Well, again, it's clarifying. You inspire me.

[A]

I.

[C]

Yes. It helped me to. That conversation.

[A]

Oh, man. Leanne, thank you so much. I. I feel like I need to get back in. All right. I want to ask this one. This one. It's like a. I don't want. I don't want to end this conversation. I wish I could just keep going and going and going, but, like, if somebody remember only one thing from this book, if they just carried away one like, man, you know what is a one thing, Leanne, that you wish that they would hold on to from this text.

[C]

I think hope and belief. Hope and belief of the power and potential of human connection and healing and. Yeah, I think. I think that's what we would both say. That's what sue would say, too. Think.

[A]

Oh, that touched you, that hope?

[C]

Yeah, I think, because, Well, the book, you know, finishing the book without sue has been emotional. There's that. But then also just, you know, we debated various titles, and one of them was around stories of hope and resilience. And so that's part of what we want this book to be, is a story of inspiration for clinicians, but also of hope. And.

[A]

Thank you for highlighting resilience in. In the trauma work. I love that hope. You're not just stuck in what happened to you, but there's hope. There's hope. Yeah. And that's something about. I appreciate your heart. You know, you definitely embody that for your clients, that hope and hoping for them and hoping for humanity, hoping for this model, hoping for the trainers, community leaders, all that hope. Yeah. Thank you. And, you know, thank you for that piece of. You know, I'll just. I'll say it again, but I am. I'm thankful to you, to Gail, to John, to Jim Furrow, to the whole board. Just the way y', all, like, you kept the fire of sue alive because she was a fire. But it makes me think. I think of, like, an Olympic fire, right? It's like this. Like, it's about unity. It's about this, like, coming together to accomplish great things, a sense of source of hope and inspiration to the world that we can all participate in this great thing together. And I appreciate sue for inviting, like. And I think that's what she did. Like, you know, she invited you into the. The EFIT work. She's invited you into this Trump. She's invited us all. Like, we all are here because in some point, especially the early trainers like sue invited us, and then she invited trainers who are now inviting new trainers, you know, in a way, and we're inviting new communities. You know, it was amazing when John at the trainers retreat was, like, finding out about all the communities we didn't even know about that have formed. And. But, yeah, just. Thank you for just carrying that. And finished. I couldn't imagine what it was like for you to finish that work with that significant attachment figure, you know, not being able to be right by your side. But as sue would say, I know she's a cast of one of the many, the Cast of characters in your head that you carry with you. Leigh Ann. Yeah, man. And you know. And I know this might sound. But if I were to, like, embody and maybe words from sue as I'm sitting in the room and someone's dealing with a narrative of trauma, I wonder what my. Like, even for you, like, what do you hear Sue's voice say to you when you're maybe working with that traumatized client? I know I'm going off script here, but I just. I love embodying people's voice. Like, I hear your voice in session sometimes. And George and all the many trainers, even the ones I saw in videos from. I remember when I first met Lisa, I said, lisa, you're an og. She's like, what do you mean? I said, you're an original gangster. Like, I remember listening to you to learn eft at the beginning. But anyway, back to you. But, like, you know, what would you. What do you hear Sue's voice say to you in some of those moments, working with trauma?

[C]

Well, The words that come to mind most immediately, as you were sharing so beautifully, is it's not you. You are not your trauma. Your trauma does not need to define you. And I don't. You know, we don't say that initially, but as we move through the process, our clients say it to us. I am not my trauma. My trauma no longer defines me. I can be separate from what happened to me.

[A]

That makes so much sense. That does typify eft. That's what we do in stage two, right? Where that negative view of self, the thing we fear, becomes our identity. I'm worthless. I'm not enough. I'm a failure. I'm inept. Then all of a sudden, it's like, this is a fear I have. It's not who I am. And the only way we find out the difference in that is when we're able to one confront it ourselves and invite others to confront it with us. And that way, we don't. I like how one pursuer, she taught me this. She's. When we get the words of others to replace the words that we have carried around in our heads about ourselves.

[C]

Brilliant. I love it. And that's what offers hope.

[A]

Ah, thank you. So that's what the hope is that you're hoping for there, Leanne. Let's. Before we go, I definitely. So the book is the. I think it's out now. Amazon told me mine is on the way.

[C]

I've seen fantastic.

[A]

I've seen some people. Like, there was a holiday party and they had gave away that saw people with the EFT trauma book at the holiday giveaway party. But yeah, I think you can get it on Amazon, probably most of your local book places you can go online, you can get it. Hey, you know what? We probably need to have a EFT and Trump, like have a book reading party and get together in groups and community and talk about what we're learning. But Lee, I think you're having like a book launch party. Can you tell us maybe more about when that is? And I'll make sure to get a link and we can put it in the show notes here so people can be at that book launch party.

[C]

Fantastic. Thank you. Yes. It's January 8, 2026, in person and online here in Victoria and we're going to hear the voices of our one and only George Folly, Mario McClenser, Jim Burrow. Yes. And David Fairweather and Gail Palmer. So, yeah, really excited to gather and to celebrate, as Eliza says, one of our amazing ISF team members, a moment in history, Sue's last formal publication.

[A]

Yeah, that felt that one. Yeah. I feel like I just want to grab the book for an attachment significance now. Yeah. Like what was, you know, what were like some of those last formal thoughts that she was going to give away to the world.

[C]

Exactly. Her parting gift.

[A]

Jim Perot said parting gift. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Leanne, any last words, comments, thoughts that your heart wants to express? Are you good?

[C]

No, just enormous gratitude, honestly, for all you bring, James, you and your community and team members. And yeah, I love your podcast I shared with you earlier. I listen to it all the time and it's brilliant and inspiring and clarifying as well.

[A]

Thank you, Leanne and y', all. Thank you so much. And Ryan, hopefully we'll, we'll be able to get him back in studio here. We'll get back into our stage two series of which we also started a miniseries within on Caregiver Nightmares. We'll be glad to have him back in. Thankful to Nicola for helping hold it down. Thank you, Leanne for coming in and once again, thank you all for letting us join you on your leading edge so you could join your clients on their leading edge because we want them to be able to have success in their vulnerability. Thank you once again. Appreciate you all.

[B]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave comment a us a five star review. You can contact [e-mail] and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and on his website, ryanrenatraining.com you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram and at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website Doc hawklpc.com.