Episode Overview

Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Episode: 133. Special Guest Episode: Leanne Shares About Her and Sue's EFT Trauma Book
Air Date: December 16, 2025
Guest: Dr. Leanne Campbell
Main Theme:
A deep dive into the creation, intent, and application of the new "EFT and Trauma" book co-authored by Leanne Campbell and the late Dr. Sue Johnson. The episode explores leading edges in practicing Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with trauma clients, the writing process of the book, the caregiving system in therapy, and concrete advice for clinicians.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Honoring the EFT Community and Leadership [01:10–03:45]

• Gratitude for Therapists: James Hawkins (Host) and Leanne Campbell express mutual appreciation for the dedication of therapists and leaders, especially following Sue Johnson’s passing.
  • "Thank you for always having the heart of us as therapists and our clients in the front of your heart." — James Hawkins [01:31]
• Leanne's Response: Leanne highlights the global spread and strength of the EFT community.
  • "So many people came together and come together, and this model continues to swell around the globe." — Leanne Campbell [02:12]

2. The "Leading Edge" for Seasoned Therapists [03:45–06:37]

• Clarifying and Deepening the Model: Leanne discusses her ongoing work to clarify what EFT is and make it more transparent for learners and professionals.
  • "We wrote the primer, we did the same in the trauma book to offer moment by moment, commentary about what we were doing and why, and getting really specific and clear." — Leanne Campbell [03:50]
• Continuous Nuance and Growth: Both hosts reflect on how EFT keeps even seasoned therapists learning.
  • "EFT always keeps you sitting on the edge of your seat to be in the present moment, emerging experience." — James Hawkins [03:01]
• Caregiving Response in Couples Therapy: Emphasis on engaging the caregiving system of the client’s partner, not just the therapist.
  • "A response from the therapist is like a flashlight but a response from their partner is like a stadium floodlight." — Quoting Sue Johnson, via James Hawkins [05:05]

3. Trusting the Caregiving System [06:23–06:37]

• Trusting in the natural caregiving impulses within the therapy room builds stronger connection.
  • "Trust the process" is really "trust the caregiving system…emotion is alive in the room and there’s a possibility of connection." — Leanne Campbell [06:24]

4. Behind the Scenes: Writing the EFT and Trauma Book with Sue [07:00–08:44]

• Process of Collaboration: Leanne describes working with Sue as inspiring, intense, and clarifying, marked by their deep focus on trauma.
  • "It was, you know, as you'll read in the acknowledgments and the preface, it was well underway before we lost a giant in the field of psychotherapy and our dear Sue. But, yeah, it was amazing. I loved it." — Leanne Campbell [07:30]

5. Validating Emotional Experience vs. Factual Responses [08:44–10:08]

• Key Principle: Emotional bids in session should be met with emotional attunement, not data or reasoning.
  • "If I make a bid to you or I share my emotion to you and you respond back to me with fact or reason, it's all as though you did not hear me." — Sue Johnson, paraphrased by James Hawkins [09:22]
• Staying in the “same channel” is crucial to meeting clients’ needs.

6. The Therapist as Temporary Attachment Figure [10:31–11:42]

• Avoiding Retraumatization: Therapists should use themselves as secure attachment figures, tuning to clients’ windows of tolerance.
  • "A big part of the answer is in us and using ourselves as temporary attachment figures…keep our clients at their leading edge without overshooting or undershooting their window of tolerance." — Leanne Campbell [10:36]
• Broader Goal: Emotion links self and experience, serving both as target and agent of change.

7. Bringing Yourself into the Process [12:37–16:27]

• Safety First: Leanne emphasizes the primary importance of creating a secure alliance, continually checking in on client safety, especially when working with trauma.
• Therapist’s Felt Sense as Guide: She relies on tuning into her own nervous system responses to client reactivity, using that self-awareness to guide interventions.
  • _"When they are reactive, you use your felt sense of their reactivity to guide your next intervention." — James Hawkins [13:47]
  • "I tune into my felt experience, and then I use that to guide my next intervention." — Leanne Campbell [13:53]
• Going With, Not Directing: Leanne often uses language such as “I’m with you” and “Can I go there with you?” to co-regulate and support clients.
  • "My therapist isn't sending me to go do something. My therapist is going with me to do something." — James Hawkins [16:04]

8. Structuring Trauma Work and Pacing [17:11–22:26]

• Having a Map & Method: Leanne reassures new therapists that EFT provides both structure and flexibility to proceed at an appropriate pace.
  • "There is a path, that we have a map and a method and to give ourselves space and grace to move through that process." — Leanne Campbell [17:13]
• Respecting and Stretching the Window of Tolerance:
  • "We always want to respect the window of tolerance while we try to stretch the window of tolerance. It's a both and." — James Hawkins [18:45]
• Indicators for Deepening: Leanne lists key indicators, like a client’s capacity, process observations, and her own nervous system, as cues for safety and readiness.

9. Transparency and Agency in Trauma Sessions [22:12–23:35]

• Transparency: Being open about the therapist’s reasoning gives clients agency and predictability.
  • "Transparency gives agency…Especially for traumatized clients, somebody took away, in a non-transparent way, their agency." — James Hawkins [22:26]
• Backing Up If Needed: Leanne uses interventions like slowing down, validation, and slicing experience into smaller parts when signs of flooding arise.

10. Validating Trauma Responses as Strategies, Not Flaws [24:43–28:53]

• Normalization and Psychoeducation through Validation:
  • "Validation is our form of psychoeducation…that response has a history outside the relationship, which takes some of the blame that person has often felt off." — Leanne Campbell [24:43]
• Empathic Reframes Encourage Compassion: Using developmental and contextual language helps the non-traumatized partner shift from blame to compassion.

11. Hope, Resilience, and Identity Beyond Trauma [29:33–34:33]

• If You Remember Only One Thing:
  • "Hope and belief of the power and potential of human connection and healing…That's what Sue would say, too, I think." — Leanne Campbell [29:33]
• Sue’s Message to Trauma Survivors:
  • "It's not you. You are not your trauma. Your trauma does not need to define you…Our clients say it to us. I am not my trauma. My trauma no longer defines me." — Leanne Campbell [33:10]

12. The Book and Launch Details [34:33–36:01]

• Book Launch: January 8, 2026 in Victoria, BC, in-person and online, with prominent EFT leaders celebrating Sue Johnson’s last formal publication.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Caregiving System:
  • "Trust the caring system…emotion is alive in the room and there's a possibility of connection. We can 100% rely on that." — Leanne Campbell [06:24]
• On Therapist’s Presence:
  • "You bring yourself forward so well…when you say it begins with us, what does that look like for Leanne, in your way of working with EFT and trauma?" — James Hawkins [12:02]
• On Validation and Psychoeducation:
  • "Validation is our form of psychoeducation. Really. When we validate…it offers the partner an understanding that this response has a history outside the relationship." — Leanne Campbell [24:43]
• On Hope and the Book’s Core Message:
  • "Hope and belief of the power and potential of human connection and healing…and that's what Sue would say, too." — Leanne Campbell [29:33]
• On Identity and Trauma:
  • "It's not you. You are not your trauma. Your trauma does not need to define you…my trauma no longer defines me. I can be separate from what happened to me." — Leanne Campbell [33:10]

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 01:10 | Introduction of Leanne & gratitude for EFT community | | 03:45 | Leanne describes her “leading edge” — clarity and specificity in EFT | | 05:05 | Stadium floodlight metaphor for partner’s caregiving | | 07:00 | Leanne on writing the Trauma book with Sue | | 09:22 | On responding to emotional bids with emotion, not facts | | 10:36 | Therapist as temporary attachment figure for trauma clients | | 13:47 | Using therapist’s felt experience to guide interventions | | 16:04 | “I’m with you” — therapist’s co-presence in trauma work | | 17:13 | Giving space and grace — pacing trauma work | | 18:45 | Balancing respect and stretch of the window of tolerance | | 22:26 | Transparency enables client agency | | 24:43 | Reframing trauma responses as strategies, not flaws | | 29:33 | If you remember one thing: Hope and human connection | | 33:10 | Sue Johnson’s core trauma message: "You are not your trauma." | | 34:33 | Book’s release and launch party details | | 36:01 | Leanne’s final gratitude and closing remarks |

Summary Table: Practical Takeaways for EFT Therapists

| Principle/Insight | Application in Practice | |------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Therapist as secure attachment figure | Use self-awareness and regulate presence to be a “safe haven” for traumatized clients | | Validate, don’t pathologize | Frame trauma responses as adaptive survival strategies, not flaws | | Move at the client’s pace | Respect and gently stretch the window of tolerance; be transparent about process and rationale | | Use self as instrument | Regularly check in with your own nervous system and let it guide interventions | | Stay in the emotional channel | Respond to emotional bids with emotion, avoiding factual or rationalizing replies | | Offer hope and resilience | Infuse sessions with belief in human connection and healing, and reflect resilience wherever possible |

Final Words

The discussion is a rich interplay between honoring the legacy of Sue Johnson, the practical and emotional nuances of doing trauma work in EFT, and Leanne Campbell’s unique insights into the therapist’s role as both mapmaker and traveling companion. The book emerges as both a practical guide and a beacon of hope, resilience, and community in the ongoing evolution of emotionally focused therapy.

If you take away only one message:
“Hope and belief of the power and potential of human connection and healing.” — Leanne Campbell [29:33]