134. Stage 2 Mini Series-Caregiver Nightmares: Being Ready for the Predictable Worst Case Scenarios

Summary

The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 134: Stage 2 Mini Series—Caregiver Nightmares: Being Ready for the Predictable Worst Case Scenarios
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rana
Released: December 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode resumes the “Caregiver Nightmares” mini-series, focusing on the predictable “red light” responses that therapists will face in Stage 2 of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT)—especially the challenges that arise in the caregiving system. Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Rana explore how therapists can anticipate, regulate, and attune to typical blocks, and guide both withdrawers and pursuers toward responsiveness and healing. The discussion is rich with practical wisdom, clinical examples, and heartfelt encouragement for therapists facing difficult sessions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Realities of EFT

• Acknowledgment of Therapist Struggles:
  • Both hosts reflect on the emotional and mental demands of extensive EFT training, emphasizing gratitude for the therapists' dedication.
  • “I just want to say thank you for the investment, how hard people worked… The level of engagement and how much people care means a lot to me.” (Dr. Ryan Rana, 01:31)
• Therapist Community and Support:
  • Importance of continued conversation, community-building, and collective learning in the EFT world.

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2. Caregiving “Red Lights”: Predictable Pitfalls

• The Cyclical Nature:
  • Predictable caregiving blocks happen almost anytime someone is in a caregiving spot, notably in Step 6 of Stage 2, but also after vulnerable enactments (05:16).
• Attachment Patterns Surface:
  • “People's attachment strategy patterns show up in predictable ways. And as a therapist, if you can predict what’s going to go wrong, it’s a whole different animal, this whole process.” (Dr. Ryan Rana, 05:39)

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3. Withdrawer Caregiving Blocks

• The Form and Intention of Withdrawer Responses:
  • Withdrawers often “loan out” their own coping strategies (e.g., positivity, avoidance) as a form of caregiving, but this is easily misattuned.
  • Example: A withdrawer encourages their partner to “be more positive” as a means of help (08:16).
  • KEY QUOTE:
    • “It is a form of love. It is literally saying, ‘Hey, here’s what I do. Maybe you try this.’” (Dr. Ryan Rana, 07:10)
• Therapist’s Role in Validation:
  • Strong warning against bypassing the withdrawer’s protective strategy.
  • “You have to have the ability…to empathize, empathize, empathize.” (Dr. James Hawkins, 07:53)

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4. Practical Steps for Working with Withdrawer Blocks

(Starting at 10:44)

• Therapist Self-Regulation:
  • “If you can’t get those first two—curiosity and compassion—the rest of your interventions are going to be off.” (James, 11:05)
• Pre-session Preparation:
  • Practice “layered regulation” before/during/after sessions—anticipate difficulty (Ryan, 11:14).
• Validation in Practice:
  • Move towards validate “three to five times”; balancing over/under-structuring (Ryan, 12:40).
  • “If someone says something like ‘be comfortable in your own skin,’ and the therapist stops them halfway through their first sentence, that doesn’t give enough oxygen to that withdrawer, even though they’re doing something that’s not so helpful.” (Ryan, 13:24)
• Attuned Interruption/Containment:
  • “Assertively but attuned” interruptions after several validations to keep the cycle in check.
• Reframing the Strategy:
  • Reframe the withdrawer’s action as a regulatory attempt that makes sense given their history (James, 14:10).

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5. Debunking Quick Fixes: The Myth of “Hoping”

• Validation Over Agenda:
  • Avoid rushing validation because of personal agendas; “hoping” for a certain outcome is counterproductive (Ryan, 15:46).
  • “When people rush their validation, it’s because they’re hoping for an exact outcome… And that’s deadly because it functions like a yes-but, and a yes-but means no.” (Ryan, 15:49)
• Sue Johnson’s Advice:
  • “If you’re not willing to repeat yourself five times, pack your bags and go home.” (Quoted by James, 15:26)
• Therapist as container:
  • Circle back to the sender, affirm the attempt, regulate the room, and don’t move forward until both partners feel caught and supported (19:40).

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6. Pursuer Caregiving Blocks

(Switches focus at 23:36)

• Pursuer Response Tendencies:
  • When their partner shows vulnerability, pursuers may “up the ante,” doubting the authenticity, or seeking more proof (“kicking the tires” analogy, 24:19).
  • First withdrawal vulnerabilities may trigger a paradoxical lack of receptivity in pursuers; they may protest, dismiss, or distrust the moment (Ryan, 24:34).
• Why It Happens:
  • Past experiences of unmet needs, protest after long deprivation, and fear of being dropped again underlie the block.
  • KEY QUOTE:
    • “It’s like I’ve been chasing this for 20 years…The safety of the therapist accesses emotion from that withdrawer, which is exactly what the pursuer is asking for. But then I get it…this feels like a trap.” (Ryan, 24:49)

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7. Practical Steps for Pursuer Blocks

• Validate, then Slow Down:
  • The therapist should move towards the pursuer with multiple validations (“three to five”), appreciate their fight, and gradually slow down the process as speed is often a “survival” mechanism (James, 29:55).
• Highlighting the Longing Within Protest:
  • Be genuinely curious about the underlying hope and longing that drives the intensity: “They wouldn’t be doing [this] if there wasn’t some kind of—ready for this word, Ryan?—hope.” (James, 29:01)
• Staying Present:
  • Gently point out in-the-moment feelings or bodily responses, helping the pursuer bear witness to their own vulnerability and the partner’s effort.
• 1% Responsiveness:
  • “Can you give me 1% of a reach for comfort for that withdrawer’s pain?” (Ryan, 32:59)

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8. Trusting the Caregiving System

• Leanne Campbell’s Leading Edge:
  • “I’m learning that trusting the process is actually learning to trust that the caregiver system is to trust the caregiving system.” (Leanne Campbell via James, 33:47)
• Natural Capacity for Care:
  • Caregiving responses are instinctual, often just blocked or paralyzed by the cycle. The work focuses on reactivating that innate drive.
  • “People do know how to respond. You’re born with these skills. These are survival instincts. They’ve just become latent.” (Ryan, 34:22)
• Experiential Pathways:
  • Attending to body responses helps reconnect clients to their “blocked” caregiving impulses—e.g., asking “what does your body want to do for your partner?” (James, 35:19; 35:41)

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9. Begrudging Respect

• The Utility of Observed Effort:
  • Witnessing partners struggle against old cycles authentically builds respect and trust.
  • “Intimacy is often built by begrudging respect. Meaning, I am watching how hard my partner is fighting their old tendencies. I see them breaking through for me. So my respect for them just went way up.” (Ryan, 37:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Validating Withdrawer Blocks:
  “If you can’t meet me where I’m struggling, why would I show you even more deep, vulnerable part of me?” (Ryan, 10:31)
• On Therapist Preparation:
  “If you see someone that maybe has trauma history or a difficult cycle, you need a few deep breaths before you go get them…they’re supposed to block me. Get ready to stay with the process.” (Ryan, 11:17)
• On Validation:
  “Sue even said, if you’re not willing to repeat yourself five times, pack your bags and go home.” (James, 15:26)
• On Therapist Mindset:
  “Knowing where you’re going is different than hoping.” (Ryan, 18:13)
• On Pursuer Protest:
  “It’s like, I don’t know, the way the analogy I’ve used is they’re kicking the tires to make sure that the car is really not going to just fall apart.” (James, 24:19)
• Begrudging Respect:
  “I am watching how hard my partner is fighting their old tendencies…So my respect for them just went way up.” (Ryan, 37:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:16: Description of predictable blocks in caregiving roles (pursuer vs. withdrawer)
• 10:44: Practical steps for working with withdrawer blocks
• 12:40: The magic “three to five” validation rule
• 15:26: Quoting Sue Johnson on validation
• 23:36: Shift in focus to pursuer caregiving blocks
• 24:19: “Kicking the tires” analogy for pursuer skepticism
• 29:01: The role of “hope” in pursuer responses
• 32:59: 1% responsiveness meme
• 33:47: Leanne Campbell on trusting caregiving systems
• 37:08: “Begrudging respect” as an intimacy-builder

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Key Takeaways

• Caregiving “red lights” are to be expected and predicted by the attachment system: being forewarned lets therapists stay present and compassionate.
• Self-regulation, layered preparation, and repeated validation are essential tools for therapists facing blocks.
• Both pursuer and withdrawer strategies are rooted in longing and care, even when they present as blocks.
• Validation must be both attuned and assertive; don’t rush for outcomes. Stay with the process, be patient, and contain the cycle.
• Trust that both clients’ caregiving systems are present and can be reawakened; the therapist’s job is to create safety and space for their emergence.
• Progress happens in small steps—seek “1%” bids for empathy, not perfection.
• Validating protective strategies as longings rather than judging them as resistance opens the door to healing and connection.

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Final Thought:
The episode underscores the humility, patience, and perseverance required of EFT therapists, affirming that therapists are never alone in confronting these complex cycles. Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Rana leave therapists with encouragement to embrace the “leading edge” of learning, trusting both the EFT process and the innate caregiving instincts within every client.

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For More:

• Follow the hosts and podcast via their socials and websites as mentioned in the outro.
• Upcoming in-person EFT community events (see timestamp 22:34 for details).

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's one thing to get caught off guard by the things that are just unexpected that happen in therapy, but it's another thing to try and be ready. Like, where are the predictable places where we can see that red light kind of response from the caregiving system show up? Let's help make those things clearer today and how can we be with some of these predictable places? Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson. All right, everybody, it's good to be back with you. And I know we've kind of had some different guests on and some different topics. We took a break from our stage two series and went into a mini series on Caregiving Nightmares. Nightmares took a break on that. Ryan's been on the road just, you know, out there in the EFT world meeting some great people and now we got him back in the studio. So we're going to pick back up with a Caregiving Nightmares and some of these predictable places where those red lights of the caregiving system show up.

[B]

But yeah, well, it's good to be back. That's where I want to do my thank you today because this will be, this will be missed time to. When listeners hear this. That's all right. It's holiday season for us. I'm wrapping up my 2025 year, you know, did about 20, 20 trainings, a little, little more than I probably need to. But I just want to say thank you for the investment, how, how hard people worked. You know, we, you and I, I think, do a lot of the three day, hyper intensive version of course skills on day three, folks are like barely making it to the chair, you know, and I'm like, are they all right and call somebody but, but the level of engagement and how much people care means a lot to me. I know a lot of the listeners on here haven't trained with me in person, but I just want to say we appreciate you, man. Your work, your work matters and we thank you for how much you invest in your community.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with you, Ryan. I've been thinking, like I took the holiday season off for a little, in little ways, but it feels like I wrapped up a season of a. It feels like an athletic season. Like I've been out on the road and it's not just about the Training. It's like, I feel like I've been out amongst therapists, and I've gotten to sit and look in their eyes and hear their stories about what they're facing, the challenges that they're working through. And I will tell you all, you all, in this off season, you've really been on my mind, like, how do I get better? How do I explain this differently? You know, what are the different things that. Whether on this podcast or success and vulnerability, or when we go out into training, even talking to other trainers, just how can we help serve you and make you better? And the last episode that you'll hear before this one is, you know, even Leanne Campbell just talking about, you know, the trauma book. And even behind the scenes, Leanne is not just excited about the book. She's really excited about equipping you all in the EFT world, about creating a piece of work that maybe we could come together and talk about a big thing. When I asked Leanne, she's like, I want community. I want to see if we can help form more community in eft. So.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So anyway, thank you for you all and what you do.

[B]

Yeah. And not to overly use army military analogies. Wait, what were you? Sergeant?

[A]

Yeah, well, one time, Sergeant. Then I got. I got commissioned as a lieutenant.

[B]

Lieutenant. All right, all right, all right, Lieutenant. Sorry, My apologies, Lieutenant Hawkins.

[A]

I think I got a little bit more respect as a sergeant. But anyway.

[B]

All right, exactly. Now, I was actually at a basketball game last night talking about EFT with somebody, and. And, you know, the three. The three modalities. Family, individual, couple, which all are so important. But the question was why we spend so much time with couple, and. And we're facing a brutal enemy. We really are. That's why we train so much. That's why we spend so much time on it. It's so important. But these cycles are. They're. They're tough, man. They're tough. I was on the Facebook page last night trying to answer some questions for folks, and it's like, what they're facing is. It's pretty awful at times. And so I appreciate the courage and. And the fact that probably to do our very best work, we got to continue these conversations and continue to grow together and put our differences aside at times and just like, for the. For the mission, so.

[A]

For the mission.

[B]

Yeah, that's what it's about.

[A]

That's good. I like that state. For the mission. That's good. All right. So. For the mission. Speaking of brutal enemies, man, I think that. But I Think that some of that, it might feel like violent language, but you know what, it feels violent on their nervous system. And so let's go here. You know, we, we started this, this miniseries Caregiving Nightmares, specifically Red Lights. And as we came in, you know, I appreciate this part of Ryan's wisdom. He just, you know, we were talking about where we're gonna go and he just rattled off two things that I thought were, were, I think very important about. Now this is general terms here, but like talking about with what, what's happening in these predictable places in a general way for the pursuit and withdraw. And you said two things that usually what's happening there, you start seeing the withdraw loan out, their avoidance and pursuers upping the ante. And remember, now we're talking about them in the caregiving spot.

[B]

Right? So, yeah, anytime they're in the caregiving spot is what we're talking about here. Step six, meaning like a stage two caregiving spot, but really on the back half of almost any vulnerable enactment when someone, you know, kind of has that red hat trying to share their, trying to share their world, you know, and then the, the blue hat, the caregiving system, anytime they're in that spot, they're, you know, it, it can seem wild and out of control, but really, if you boil this down, people's attachment strategy patterns show up in predictable ways. And as a therapist, if you can predict what's going to go wrong, it's a whole different animal, this whole model, this whole process. And I do think that, yeah, in the caregiving response, withdrawers tend to try to loan out what works for them. And what's sad about that is that is that is a form of responsiveness.

[A]

Yeah, that.

[B]

It's a form of love. It's often misattuned and then both people get, are a part of why that's out of tune. Don't forget that when you see a withdrawal, who has a misattuned response, don't lock in on them and miss the systemic context that the partner's also inadvertently doing things that's taking safety away.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But anyway, yeah, I think withdrawers are like, hey, here's what works for me. I don't know what to do. There's a lot happening right here. Maybe try what works for me. And that's a very normal thing. I mean, we do that as parents all the time. If your kid's having trouble in school and you're like, well, here's the spreadsheet I use. Why would you not give that to them? Ooh, that would be almost unloving not to try.

[A]

Hey, by the way, you hear everything Ryan just said. That's how you might validate the withdrawal.

[B]

Exactly. You better. You better. Because if you invalidate that withdrawer, their moves are better than you. I promise you that they will lock you out. Ask me how I know that. Yeah, right.

[A]

So.

[B]

So they. It is a form of love. It is literally saying, hey, here's what I do. Maybe you try this.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And it comes across in different ways. Sometimes that's advice. And as a therapist, it's easy to get judgy because we're expecting this. You know, we've seen eft beautiful videos. But don't forget, your clients have not finished course skills. They don't. They don't understand this. And if you spend six sessions trying to explain to them, you just largely wasted six sessions. So instead, our nervous system is going to have to learn to tolerate and work with what comes forward.

[A]

And that was another piece right there. So one, it's. You have to have the ability. This reminds me when you came back from Sue's memorial service and David, was it David. I think they shared that. That quote from sue, when your clients frustrate you, you have empathize, empathize, empathize. And so with that, when the pursuer. Because that happened to me in a live. Actually, right. In a stage two live with the pursuer softening. I was going to that step six, and the withdrawal just looks at me. It's like, yeah, I'm a relatively positive guy. You know, I don't really sink down into these things and. And this and that. And so I want to help her, but I mean, maybe she could try and be positive like me and, you know, this. And I was like, hey, I so appreciate that you have that gear to not let life just suck and just to get stuck in this place. And then your best thing you have right there is to try and give her the same thing. Like, maybe it'll help her get out. But then at the same time, you know, but that you. I had to lead out with that.

[B]

Trying to find parts or versions.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But. But again, I think it's important to have that paradigm.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Because if you look at it from the surface, it's going to seem so misattuned, you know, And I had a withdrawal years ago. Who loved the phrase, learn to be comfortable in your own skin. It's kind of a, you know, individuation, differentiation, mindset with jars, love that. Right. Because it makes perfect sense with their strategy. And so. But he would say that phrase a lot. Then it did land awful. Right. Basically telling your partner who's upset, just starting to be comfortable in your own skin. Just differentiate. Right. And. But again, if you can unpack that, like, that's how he survives, or that's what that withdrawer does in their world, or that seems like that's.

[A]

That.

[B]

It seems to them that that's been an effective strategy. So all they're saying is, hey, I love you. Try this. This is the best thing I know to say right now. So they really need us to work with that, to find the longing underneath the strategy. By working with the ineffective strategy and validation and interpreting the attachment function of what's going on, honoring that which opens the door and see if we can touch the other part. Who cares?

[A]

Yes. But key, catch the language. Ryan said we get to that part by working with the. That strategy that's happening in front of us, not just skipping past it, not trying to say, oh, no, no, by working with it. That's a huge thing.

[B]

It is. And it's so tempting to just want to bypass it. I think EFT in particular can really struggle with that, you know, because we so want to go to the heart. We so want to work with the underlying emotion. We want to get to the vulnerable. But remember, if I can't work with your protective strategy, I don't deserve to see your vulnerability. Right. Think about that.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

If you can't meet me where I'm struggling, why would I show you even more deep, vulnerable part of me? Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Do you want to go to the practical with that withdrawal piece, or do you want to go ahead and bounce back up to the pursuer piece?

[B]

Let's go ahead and do practical.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We'll do pursuer after the break. How about that?

[A]

Sounds good.

[B]

We just had a little meeting right in front of you.

[A]

Yep. That's right. Process check in right there. Yeah. So let me go back then. So let's go talk about working with. So I think the first move that you have in that one is. Goes without saying, if y' all know me, you have to regulate your nervous system first as a therapist.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To find. To see what's happening and say how to. Curiosity and compassion. That's my. If you don't. If you can't get those first two, the rest of your interventions are going to be off.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. I would even say layered preparation.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

Yeah. I think we need to have A little bit of pre regulation of our system. Before every couple comes in your office different than individuals like any, especially if you see someone that maybe has trauma history or you know, has a difficult cycle, you need a few three or four deep breaths before you go get them. Whether you're letting them in, zoom, or going to the waiting room, you need to go, hey, this is, this is going to be hard. This is supposed to be hard. I can do hard things. They're supposed to block me. Get ready to stay with the process. Other if you're not ready to do that, you're probably going to go do your strategy. Now we have three people doing their attachment protection systems. And so, yeah, that's now that created.

[A]

A graphic for me right there. But anyway, so, so there's, it's a layer for preparation before session preparation, I guess maybe in the moment when it happens.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then maybe even after. How do you talk to yourself to process and make sense out of. Okay, all right, but back in.

[B]

So there's a new, a new series right there.

[A]

You get, I know, I wrote that down. And I, I, I'm like, okay, that happened at 12 minutes in. I'm gonna go pull that segment out. All right, all right, but back in. So one is even just being able to one, regulate yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look at it and have curiosity. But then I think the big practical one here, it's move towards it with three to five validations of what you're seeing happen in front of you and the good reasons why it's probably happening.

[B]

Yeah. And speaking of numbers, there, it's a fine line between using too much specific structure, which can pull you out of a tune mate, or not give it enough structure, which will pull you out of two. Right. So numbers matter, though, just from watching a lot of videos. There is a magic three to five here and just, just something to put in your back pocket. I don't want you literally in there counting, per se. But if, if someone says something like be comfortable in your own skin, and the therapist stops them halfway through their first sentence, that doesn't give enough oxygen to that withdrawer, even though they're doing something, that's not so helpful. Okay, so, but if, but if I, more commonly, if I sit and give the withdrawer their 12th sentence. Oh, now they're, you know, now they're up at the lectern teaching us all how to withdraw.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a lot of therapists are like, oh, tell me more, help me. I want to let this person finish their thoughts. No, no, no, you don't no, that's not their thoughts. That's the cycle thoughts. So about that fourth sentence. We need to get over there and interrupt in some way.

[A]

So thank you for bringing that back. So it is regulate yourself, then there's got to be like a, A, I would say an attuned interruption or something like that where you give assertive. That's right.

[B]

Containing.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. For their protection and for the protection of the, of the process and the.

[B]

Partner keeping the cycle from taking over.

[A]

Then coming in with that validation and maybe even a reframe of the strategy you're seeing in front of you, which.

[B]

Is regulation of them.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So we're pre regulated and then we're using our attachment interpretation validation to regulate their nervous system, which says, hey, you're okay. Yeah, you're important here. I see how you got here. This makes sense. Which just lets their hits that mirror neuron level hopefully and starts their body to slow down on the inside. And most therapists either don't do that or they do one validation and that just doesn't work.

[A]

Exactly. And that's why, you know, I think I was thinking about us and what we do on SV and I want to just go make a quick go back side comment. The reason why we give you some specificity is really, it's more for you as the clinicians because we just want to give you something clear. I think it'll help you feel like I've got something. It's not. I'm showing up to the moment with nothing. I have something in my mind that I've practiced that I can now ad lib in the moment because I've practiced. Does that make sense? And then even with the numbers, what. You know, when you first taught me that, Ryan, you would say three to five a lot. Where that three to five hit me. It didn't become bondage for me. It became a challenge for me.

[B]

And because I wouldn't say three to five validations.

[A]

Three to five validations. Sometimes sue even said if you're not willing to repeat yourself five times, pack your bags and go home.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Because she's saying the first few times. The amygdala, the fear center of the brain, does not let your. Your most well crafted formed intervention. It doesn't get through.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That you. It's not. She said even. She said she doesn't see her clients seeing it. What she. They don't hear what she's saying till about the fifth time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that says something.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm doing something recently at core skills, which is getting me made fun of. So then I like it. I'll be in the middle of a demo in these situations, and I'll be like, and what are we hoping for here? And someone from the group says, well, go vulnerable or. And I'm like, trick question. Don't hope. So, like, by the time you finish core skills with me, I've said don't hope like 25 times, which is a funny thing because hope is such an important part of life. It really is. I'm doing a big talk tomorrow at a company, and we're going to talk about hope as one of the cornerstones of mental health. So I'm pro Hope. I'm team Hope. Except for this situation. Because when people rush their validation, it's because they're hoping for an exact outcome. They have an agenda. I'm trying to force this, which means I'm not really present with what is happening. I'm already two steps ahead of you, where I want to see you go. And that's deadly because it functions like a yes, but a yes but means no. So basically, I see your block, I give you a quick validation, but try to move you really quickly. And what I basically said is, no, I don't see you. I don't see your concern. Do it more. So I'm actually now training you experientially to block more. And that's a no. No. So when someone has a red light in a caregiving system, it's never a bad idea to go back to the sender, wrap another tourniquet. Hey, you're doing it. I want you to know you did a great job. I so appreciate you, what you did and your courage. I love that you're giving me time here. This is right where we're supposed to be. We're looking. We got the engine, we got the hood open. We're looking at the engine of this cycle. We're doing great here. Okay, so let me come back, right? So. So to spend time there, because if I don't unload your concern there, I'm sending you home with it loaded. So to really contain a space to spend three to five rounds of the positive intention of what you're trying to do, what you're trying to say, which lets you regulate and lets you come back in the room. Okay? And then we are prepared. We know where we're going. You know, thinking about finishing the mission or whatever it is to see if I can get some green response from you, to see what you can do. Can you can. You have a little bit of empathy and then we're going to pass that over. That's. That's our direction that we're going. But that's different. Knowing where you're going is different than hoping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Hoping is that my body's trying to. Trying to really, really make this go. And. And that doesn't sit well.

[A]

Yeah. I might know the mile markers and the exit signs and all those things for going from here to south Arkansas. Look, I'm giving you some geography of Arkansas, but even though I know that that's the path and like when I'm getting ready to take that exit towards Little Rock, I don't want to go to Fort Smith. I know it. But I still have to be prepared for whatever happens in the middle on the road. I think that's one of the analogies that come up for me with that.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I know where I'm going. I'm ready for whatever happens on the road. Because it might be a flipped over car on the side of the road. That happened to me a couple weeks ago when I got to slide down an icy road. That was fun.

[B]

That sounds not in south Arkansas.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. For sure.

[B]

Picture we're looking at this red light, this caregiving nightmare where the withdrawer has a very vulnerable partner. And instead of just doing the very simple thing that secure people do, which is to reach over in comfort.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Solace.

[A]

And can I get one more thing you said that was good because it ties back to something we said on the last time we did caregiving. I liked when you said it. We need to spend some time with that withdrawers caregiving system. That's locked up. But you gave a look. But remember we said last week I used that Michael Preston thing about we're on the shot clock kind of thing. Right. So. But then you. I liked how you said it's when you recognize it's going to take some time. Go back to the sender and remind them you did exactly what you were supposed to do.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

This is the cycle showing up and we need to see what the cycle is doing and what it's doing to your partner. Right here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then go back over.

[B]

Yeah, we talked. We talked last week. In core skills. If you have a really deep cycle send and you have a really strong red light, you may need to layer three tourniquets on the initial sender. Just making sure their nervous system feels caught. Understood. Seen. So that number one, you don't do damage. That's important. But strategically Tactically, I want them to have enough positive reinforcement that they do it again next session. And so that's key. So.

[A]

And can I say one more? And I think we've made this clear, but I want to make sure y' all get this. And we don't ever want to put the sender in a spot where they have to give up who they are to comfort the. The block caregiving system with no acknowledgement that they were dropped. Does that make sense there? Because I think that has been the move. Sometimes in a mistake, it's, oh, you can't do it. Then you go over to the block caregiving system and what's so hard here, I just get so scared because this is what happened for me. Okay. And then you turn right back to the. You have them. Could you turn to your partner and say right now that I just get so scared because this place in my life or this and that. So to me, to clean that up is almost like we've talked about this with a ditch enactment. It's not just to have the sender respond to the withdrawer's fear, but to be able to have the withdrawal say, hey, this is what's happened to me. I get afraid, but I notice how that lands on you. It still needs to be some form of acknowledgement of the sender and. But not making the sender have to only comfort the caregiving system.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. Anyway, I don't know if I said that clearly, but I think so.

[B]

Okay, so big picture before the break. Number one, we're regulated. We don't let this surprise us. Remember, if. If caregiving systems were smooth and attuned, they would have never called you. So your clients are doing their job by showing you where they're stuck. Right. So we're going to, we're going to regulate ourself. We're going to move towards this block in the function of Parks. To me, in my little pea sized brain here, I have the part of them that's away from their partner as the blocking system that I'm gonna contain and I'm gonna validate multiple times and then I'm gonna move back towards the part of them that's towards their partner and see if I can get 1% of empathy online. Even if 99% is blocked and upset or just trying to do avoidance or whatever it is, that's fine. And I want to be fine with that. Can they do 1%? Because what you find is couples who live in cycles get into all or nothing rigidity. Either I Got to do it perfectly or I'm not going to do it at all or I got to completely agree with you or I can't play and when. But that's, that's so security is just the ability to tolerate all that.

[A]

All right, Ryan, let's take a break.

[B]

Hey, I'm excited about an upcoming event here. I'd like to invite everybody to. There's a new or relatively new EFT community called Hampton Roads eft. There's actually experienced EFTERS there, but they're reorganizing into a community and they're going to have a big launch. First ever EFCT externship. This is gonna be in person in Virginia beach. And this is gonna be. To my knowledge, I'm probably wrong about this, but the only time EFT has been taught in view of the ocean. So I don't, I don't, I don't mean in a city next to the ocean. I mean literally a hotel on the beach. So we're excited about that. That's going to be Virginia Beach, Virginia, September 15th through the 18th, 2026. That's going to be with me in the new community. It's going to be a small externship. It's a first time launch and we would love to have you repeaters if you've done externship already, 50% off, come repeat, go get your fundamentals again like I did 30 times. And please tell your friends. So we'd love to see you in Virginia Beach, September 2026.

[A]

All right, Ryan, welcome back. So now we're going to switch our focus to that pursuer one. And once again, just to reload you with some of that language on the pursuer side that some of the tendencies with the pursuer in that caregiving role when they're red lighting is they're just up in the ante in that moment. And the ways I think I've seen that is almost like. It's like even when the withdrawer is trying their best to send over a vulnerable signal. I don't know. Tell me if this outlines. When I see it, it's almost like the pursuer is like, is this real or not? It's like they. It's like, I don't know. The way the analogy I've used is they're kicking the tires to make sure that the car is really not going to just fall apart. It's not like a cardboard kind of facade, in a way.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I tell people I'm just coming off of two rounds, of course Skills. So sorry, I keep going back to that. But I tell people, one little intricacy in eft. And this is mostly in stage one. But the first several times the withdrawer goes into vulnerability, expect that pursuer to lash them. Doesn't happen every time, but I would say the majority of times the pursuer body has a very paradoxical response to withdraw our vulnerability. Right. It's like, I've been chasing this for 20 years. They never let me in. They never let me in. They never let me in. The safety of the therapist and. Or the skill level of the therapist accesses emotion from that withdrawer, which is exactly what the pursuer is asking for. But then I get it. It's a little bit like that dog chasing the car, you know, it's like I feel a little run over by this. Right. Like, really, I've been trying to get you to open up, you say you love me, and now this, you know, bald therapist in five sessions. As you dropping into your deepest vulnerability, this feels like a trap. So for a lot of therapists, that can be very frustrating. So see it coming. That's the first piece kind of right back to regulating ourself.

[A]

I like that that trap one resonates because. Does this mean I'm a bad person? Does it mean, like, because they've been living in this relationship feeling like, I don't know, like they're the only. They're the ones that have needs that don't get met. Then when the withdrawal starts talking about, hey, I have a scary place too. Yeah, I have needs to. That sometimes it'd be like, wait, how do I make room for this now? This is. This is new to our world.

[B]

Right? Or yes, yes. Well said. And the. The pursuer protest, which is really common, is, okay, you only do this in here, but you don't do it at home.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

As if. As if the therapist has a new move to make them do it at home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So. But that's. That's really common to some degree. We just got to tolerate that, validate that and move. Keep moving forward.

[A]

That part of the protest and my usually move towards that one is, you're right, you have always wanted this. You've put out so much to try and get this. It feels like gotten so little in return or you've had the door slammed in your face.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I totally get why this could be like. Yeah, can really catch us off guard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I really appreciate that.

[B]

Exactly. So it's really a parallel process. Both people are learning the Strategy that works for them. Right. Pursuers have survived by putting more intensity out, more control out, more energy. Right. They're great workers that no one questions the pursuers amount of energy they put in. So then the partners, it gets vulnerable and here it comes, more protest comes forward. So. So it is a form of love. It is them trying to, to make something good happen. But it's very misattuned. Right? So it feels bad on the therapist's body, especially if you don't see it coming.

[A]

You know something that's. I think I found some more compassion from my clients and it comes from my own personal life. I just have this realization, which I know it's true, but it just, it became clear they don't know that they're.

[B]

Doing it right for sure.

[A]

Y' all better take, take that. They don't know. They don't know. They usually don't know until afterwards. And they're either playing the tape back and then it's still too hard to look at, right? Especially from the pursuer seat. Because remember, what's one of the things that pursuers trying to guard from being too much, Being seen as a monster, having their emotions out of control. So then when they see a moment where their high nervous system gets hijacked and maybe their partner doesn't receive something good on the other, on the, on the end of them, that could be a little bit shaming for them. So you have to be careful. Like they're already going to feel it. So don't make sure you don't double down with the cycle and double down on your own. Shame on the pursuer nervous system there, right. That remember, their energy has been their attempts to stay alive.

[B]

There you go. So now I'm just doing what I've got to do to survive. Right. But it can function as if they're up in the ante. Meaning I'm asking you to come to level three. You come to level three and it's not enough. Now I need level four. Right? And you do level four and it's like, no, it's not enough. I don't trust this. Right? And so really I think the longing beneath that is I want this to be so different. I want to know that we're at a completely different place, that you're not going to drop me again.

[A]

Huh? Right. I like that move. Being curious about the longing in the protective strategy. I mean, I know we say it, right, but I don't know why I felt it when you said that is can I be curious with the Pursuer. Or with the withdrawer about the longing inside of their protective strategy because they wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't some kind of ready for this word, Ryan. Hope.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Did you. You know, you didn't get to hear, probably Leanne said, we just did it. But the part where I love this is Leanne's humanity coming through again. I said Leanne with this EFT trauma book. If some. If people could only remember one thing out of the whole book. What do you want? And I'm thinking, like, oh, she's going to get this high technical point and all she looked and loved. Leanne's transparent. And just tears came to her eyes. And she said hope. She said, before sue died, that's one of the titles we wrestled with, was something about, like, hope for humanity.

[B]

Man, that's deep. Yeah, that's deep. Yeah, that's good stuff. And yet Hope in the Block caregiving system is a problem. Right. Because I continue to ask my partner to go more and more and more to prove to me that you're safe because you've hurt me all those times. And yet it's a huge saboteur.

[A]

And I think. Tell me if this is one strategy I've used in the practical way with the pursuer in that one is definitely. It is still going towards them with a lot of validation. And then I would say, normally we'd say slow down with withdrawals, but even here, I need to slow down with that pursuer because speed becomes, in a way, is trying to keep them alive, but it becomes their enemy because they don't get to see what's happening to them. So I want to slow it down. And. And I love how you said it's. And I love what your energy is telling me right here, right now, right in this place.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I have to, like, show them the present moment, because the pursuer usually either goes back to when it's always failed them or to. We won't be able to get this back again. So I need to put this through the test right now with the therapist. To protect the future.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And pursuers are visionaries. That's something that really helps me understand what's going on for them. Like, they hold this vision.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of how good it could be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they say things like. And I do think pursuers are a little bit less likely to have affairs, for instance. They do, but a little less likely. I really think they often. They often say. And I think more often feel, I don't want anyone else this is the person I really want. This is. And I know how good they could be if they could just do these two or three things right. And that is such a trap for them because it's hard not to push for how great it could be when I believe in my partner so much, and yet I can't set aside the two or three things they need to improve to create the safety for the person to organically move towards growth. That's what cycles do to us.

[A]

Whoa. Yeah, that was another statement right there. That's a good line.

[B]

Yeah. So I think. I think with those pursuers, right back to the point, we have to find a way to come towards the misattuned up and upping of the ante, increasing of the pressure and find a way to honor that beautiful energy. It helps if you believe it. So I love this about you. You fight so hard for this relationship. And when you're pushing your withdrawer to work on themselves, go deeper, share their heart, learn to validate me. That's your body trying to say, this is important. Here's how much I believe in you. I love how hard you fight for this relationship. Your push is the way you're fighting for the relationship. If more people in the world fought for relationships the way you do, we would have a completely different world. And I believe that is true. So there's me, there's four or five validations I gotta love on this protective protest to see if I can emotionally regulate their body, to see if they can come back in the room and be present right now. Can you give me 1% of a reach for comfort for that withdrawer's pain?

[A]

Ooh, wait, wait, did y' all hear that? Can you give me 1% of a reach or of comfort?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. That's all we need. That's all we need. 1% going back and forth. It's like blood going to the new organ.

[A]

Yesterday I'm going to start doing. When we have guests on the show, especially, you know, someone like Leanne, you know, for sure. But I said, hey, Leanne, what's your leading edge in eft right now and what are you doing to work on it? And her answer kind of caught me off guard. She's like. She said something like, I'm learning now. And she gave no credit to leading edge and to sv. But anyway, I would just give credit to all the many trains. Anyway, she said, I'm learning that trusting the process is actually learning to trust that the caregiver system is to trust the caregiving system. I was like, what?

[B]

Say that again.

[A]

I'm learning that part of trusting the process is trusting the caregiving system, which makes sense, right? Is. And I like that because, you know, me and Ryan even jump into this. It's like, we put so much trust in a person, putting out a signal for vulnerability. But do we trust that the caregiving system is really more powerful than we are? That goes back to that quote from Sue. The response from a therapist is like a flashlight, but a response from the partner is like a stadium floodlight. But what we're talking about today is there are some predictable reasons why they don't turn on the stadium lights for the game.

[B]

And it is key what she's saying here, because people do know how to respond.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And people do know how to share. So the cycle will convince you. They don't know what to do. They don't have skills. But you're born with these skills. These are survival instincts. They've just become latent. They've become paralyzed. They've lost access to them. So I love what she's saying. It's there. It's the most natural thing in the world to see someone in vulnerability, to stop and care for them, man. No one has to be taught to do that. What we have to do is to re. Experience it so that they're like, oh.

[A]

Yeah, this is me, and I want to say something. This I want to give. You might give credit to some, but you and Chad. I remember one time we were in an SV meeting, and you and Chad kept showing talking about your different lines of going towards a caregiving, somatic experience of the moment. And what I loved about the sign of what you and Chad were talking about was y' all were tapping into, I don't know what the right way to say it, the inbuilt human nature to want to care. But the cycle has kind of muted that in some people. And so what you. What you and Chad's questions of is kind of like, tell me if I'm getting the language right. It's so. Hey, I'm kind of curious what's happening in your body right here, right now for your partner, as your body sees their fear, what does it want to do? What does it want to say? Or you did one, too. I saw you in a. Hey, that's just. That tells me that's your body's way of trying the best it knows how to be here with your partner. So can we stay with that? Because if your body could speak, if it could do something on Their behalf. And what I loved about that was you and Chad are believing that there's something in there that the negative cycle doesn't give them space and curiosity to explore or to take a risk with. To say, I don't know if this is what you want, but this is what my body wants to do for you. And you know why I like that now, Ryan, where it's helping me in my work. I don't know if I've gotten to tell you in Chad this, I find the sender trusted more because I say, what is it like when I go back to the body out. So how. What was that right there, right now? What is it that your partner did that brought that comfort? And you know what they say to me? I saw them working in front of me. I saw how much they fought to stay with me.

[B]

Well said.

[A]

I saw how much they fought to consider me.

[B]

Yep, that's. That's. That's good old. Nobody tell. Nobody tell. I said this. Oh, that's good old. That. That's really one of the nice points that David Schnar used to make. Who's Mr. Differentiation? Bow and all that sex guy. Uh, but he called it begrudging respect. Oh, that. Intimacy is often built by begrudging respect. Meaning just what you said. I am watching how hard my partner is fighting their old tendencies. I see how hard this is, and I see them breaking through for me. And so my respect for them just went way up. So he listed that as part of differentiation. I'm listening. As part of experiential therapy. So instead of talking about the bond, let's do it. Because you can't develop begrudging respect. Talking about bonds, talking about emotion, talking about even repair. Although that would be my favorite of those. Those three or four topics. But there's nothing like, let's get in the arena. Let's. Let's create some safety for this person. Let's love on their protection system, and let's see if we can create a space for that 1% to come forward. Because the partner, seeing them fight for that 1%, it changes the view of other. Yeah, it's like my respect for you increases. I know that your mom hurt you in this way. I remember this. And so to see you fight to come forward, and that's a powerful intimacy builder. Nice point.

[A]

And can I also say this one? Because also, it helps me on the pursuer side. They up the Annie, because here's what I've heard from some pursuers in the caregiving role. It's well yeah, Those are just words. And so by showing the work of the caregiving system of the partner on the other side, it's like, I know you heard the words, but could your body see how the fear, how maybe the confusion, the lostness came up and could you see. And they almost started going that way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then I came in and helped them, but could you see how their body converted back over for you? So for right now, that's the action I want you to see, because that's the action you need to know if you can trust them or not. Are they willing to do something different for this relationship to be different? Not just the words, but even in the midst of distress, instead of just shutting down, they fought to stay good. So I'm turning it into their words is action.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, with pursuers thinking practically here, I know we're going a little long here, but. So one of the phrases I don't like eft years to use. So if I have any influence over your practice, take the phrase you're going to your head out of your language. It's bad. It's bad. We all see it and notice it, but that's a big shame comment. It's not helpful.

[A]

And by the way, their ability to try and make sense out of things is a superpower for sure on both sides. That's right.

[B]

But that's what happens. Right. So the withdrawer shares something somatic and vulnerable. The pursuer went to their head. I'm not going to say that. I'm just going to observe. So when they say it's just words, they just left the room. They just left the room to go meta. Talk about the process. And all their body's really saying is, I so want that. But, but the last 10 times, I'm sorry, I'm going to use a house metaphor here. The last 10 times we turned the water back on, it flooded the our house. So now I'm going to do lots of drains and lots of plumbing and lots of glue and lots of plumber's tape to make sure this doesn't happen again. I need it to get. I need it to be a very high bar to prevent being dropped again. Right. So it makes good sense. But they also left the room to go make that comment. So I got to go leave the room with them. Maybe after a tourniquet on the withdrawer now and in the, in the hallway. I've got to spend three to five times honoring this. I so appreciate what's happening for you. Even right now. Your body Sees the risk. This is the most important person in the world in a very tender moment. If this is a trap or a trick, it would be devastating for you. So I so appreciate what your body just did. I love this about you. You're not someone who's going to settle. You push for things to be as they're supposed to be. You're kind of a redeemer in the world. You want things to be right. Right. So finding a way to regulate their emotion by validating the strategy. And then the great thing about pursuers is there's a resource in front of you at all times. So when the withdrawer shows a tear, shows vulnerability. Pursuers cannot not feel withdrawers. Probably true for them, too, but they are more practiced at just sort of icing that over. Pursuers are going to feel something. So if we can slice it so thin, so even just set aside all the validation because there's a cognitive layer to that, and just be like, hey, I want to. Can you give me two minutes here? Repeat the withdrawers roll. I'm sorry? Repeat the withdrawer's words, but then point to when you saw those big tears, when you heard their voice crack, did you notice anything in your body? So just trying to slice it then. I'm not looking for the pursuer to agree. I'm not looking for them to, like, you know, add trust, these big concepts. I'm just asking them to give me two minutes to pay attention. When there was that painful place, did you notice anything in your body? And that usually is a fairly, you know, a fairly convertible moment to get them to pay attention to their. Their empathic response and then hopefully convert that to a little bit of responsiveness.

[A]

You all, thank you for letting us. I know we went a little long today, but I, you know, I hope this is a big thing for you, because the reason why I. I think it's good is this is where I see many people that are training because you really care about your clients and you want to be a safe person and protect them, that sometimes these enactments can feel so scary, you start hedging your bets to protect them. Ryan and I, I think our heart here is we want to come alongside you to where you don't have to hedge your bets and stay away from the enactment, but eat. Because many therapy. But what if the partner can't? But what if they can't? Go ahead and say they probably can't. And here's how I'm going to help them. You ready?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They might not be able to, but here's how I'm going to help them. And by the way, let me say this too. We are in stage two. So you've seen proof that they can. It's just at this new level of depth, it might re reawaken some of those blocks just because this is a different level of experience for them.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and I would just say to. To cap it for me, occasionally I see people, either literally or figuratively, say, I don't want to deal with this block work. I just want to work with the emotion. Here's what I want to say about that. Number one, it's not about you. It's about meeting them where they are. But working with the blocks is emotional work.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's emotional work that the, the emotional dysregulation is what's showing up on the surface as this misattuned block. So the ability to stay flexible in that moment to be with that. This is being with them, to work with their blocking system.

[A]

And I would just want to drive it home. That's one of my favorite quotes from Sue's a tip book. Right. It's is trying to access emotion. You are going to get blocked. And sue would say in the book, she said, your job is to go ahead and kick start the process. Like, literally sue is saying, hey, I want you to go on a journey where you're going to get blocked and go ahead and get it started. You're going to go towards a block. We ain't making this up. This ain't a George Ryan James thing. Super. I'm like, suit does. She's not even like, go back. I'm not even hoping for a clear path today. I. I'm assuming that if I try and go for your emotion, at some point you're gonna block me. So let's get going.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

All right, y', all, thank you so much. Thank you for letting us being with you on your leading edge so you can help your clients on the leading edge so that ultimately we can all have success and vulnerability. Appreciate you. Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Raina Professional Training and on his website, ryanrenatraining.com you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website, dochawklpc.com.