Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 135: Stage 2 Series: Finally The Big Show: Step 7—The Hidden Need
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rayner
Date: January 9, 2026

Overview

In this pivotal episode, Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Rayner dive deep into “the big show” of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT): Step 7—accessing and expressing hidden attachment needs. While much of their previous content emphasized the challenges, blocks, and cycles in therapy, this discussion spotlights the transformative moment when clients can finally access and vulnerably articulate their true needs to their partners. The hosts candidly share both clinical wisdom and personal growth, offering practical strategies for therapists to prepare and facilitate these powerful, healing encounters.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Paradox of Need in EFT

• Need is Central, But Chronically Delayed:
  Secure attachment centers on meeting needs, yet in EFT, “need” becomes a dangerous question if introduced too early (04:30–06:40).

  “Really secure attachment is actually all about meeting needs… but as couples therapists, the concept of need is a big trap.” – Dr. Hawkins (04:30)

• The Trap of Early Need Exploration:
  If a therapist asks about needs prematurely in stage one, it tends to invite blame and reactivity (05:42).

  “…what happens is, so that's why in EFT—and parallel on this podcast– needs is one of the very last things that we do, because now we have kind of access to it. …It’s very important and yet it's not something you want to do too early.” – Dr. Hawkins (06:40)

2. Developmental Sequence: Math as a Metaphor

• Learning in Order:
  Like mastering mathematics, clients must gain proficiency in the “basics” (handling cycles, identifying primary emotion) before attempting “trigonometry”—expressing deep needs (08:34–09:47).

  “Don’t try to make your clients do trigonometry when they can't multiply three times three.” – Dr. Hawkins (09:11)

3. Seeding the Need vs. Enacting the Need

• Continuous Seeding:
  Throughout the first six steps, therapists “seed” the language of need without yet asking for vulnerability or direct expression (10:21–13:10).

  “By the time you're trying to think about need, it should have been seeded, I don't know, 50, 60 times per person.” – Dr. Hawkins (12:55)

• Readiness is Crucial: Double Green Lights
  Only when both partners are in a “double green” (open, present, nonreactive) state is it safe to enter Step 7.

  “If you’re not familiar with our light system… double green or you don't even consider talking about most vulnerable attachment need.” – Dr. Hawkins (13:27)

4. Preparing for Step 7—Loading Reluctance

• The Pre-7/7A Move:
  Before enacting need, therapists should “load reluctance”—help clients articulate the fear or reluctance that has blocked expressing needs (16:10–18:44).

  “Bringing it to… hyper color green by loading reluctance. Which is another form of enacting a fear of reaching.” – Dr. Hawkins (16:38)

5. Making Need Alive: Avoiding Hypotheticals

• From Hypothetical to Here-and-Now:
  It’s tempting for clients (and less experienced therapists) to talk about needs hypothetically (“if only my partner would…”). True transformation occurs when the need is expressed in the present moment (21:00–32:55).

  “If the client flips it to a hypothetical, I want the listeners to know that’s not a seven. That’s not need work.” – Dr. Hawkins (21:00)

• Concrete Steps for Step 7:

  • Evoking the Body: Focus on embodied, sensory experience to help the withdrawal access need (24:26).
  • Use of Self in Evoking: Therapists may externalize pain, grieve with, and soothe the client to create a safe entry into need (25:00–27:01).
  • Transitioning from Imagining to Acting: After helping the client imagine the needed comfort, therapists must encourage in-the-moment enactments with the partner (“Can you turn and ask for that right now?”).

6. The Simplicity and Power of True Needs

• The Result: Simple, Powerfully Human Requests:
  After all the build-up, the “big show” often boils down to simple but profound expressions: “Could you just put your hand on my shoulder?” (33:22–34:15).

  “Intimate relationships are not complicated. They’re very, very simple—they’re just really hard.” – Dr. Hawkins (34:15)

• Transforming the System:
  These moments reshape not only individual hearts but “the whole rules of their system, their view of self and view of other, which is what stage two is all about.” – Dr. Hawkins (35:54)

7. Working with ‘I Don’t Know’

• When Clients Can’t Name Their Need:
  If, even after all this, a client says “I don’t know,” it’s not failure. Stay with curiosity and use attachment history as hints (38:28–42:14).

  “It is still possible for people, even in step seven, to say, I don’t know. …That’s not a block necessarily. …How would you know? You’ve lived on defense for so long.” – Dr. Hawkins (38:28)

8. Using Attachment History

• Mining the Assessment:
  Look for clues in past interviews: safe people, coping in childhood, what was soothing for younger selves. Bring forward those answers at the right moment (41:05–42:45).

9. Final Wisdom: Presence Over Smoothness

• Therapist Vulnerability:
  Don’t aim for perfect phrasing; aim for authenticity and calm presence (43:12–44:17).

  “Don’t try to be smooth, just be present.” – Dr. Rayner (43:56)

• Model for Caregivers:
  This lesson is as relevant to therapists as to caregivers in couples—being truly present and engaged is enough.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Paradox of Need:

  “The concept of need is a big trap… if you go for need too early, you end up inviting the cycle in.” – Dr. Hawkins (04:30–06:40)

• The Math Metaphor:

  “Don’t try to make your clients do trigonometry when they can't multiply three times three.” – Dr. Hawkins (09:11)

• Double Green Lights:

  “This is the one time in EFT where I will not go towards a block. If I have any sense that I’m about to get blocked, I’m just gonna wave off of need.” – Dr. Hawkins (13:54)

• On Loading Reluctance:

  “Bring it to hyper color green by loading reluctance… another form of enacting a fear of reaching.” – Dr. Hawkins (16:38)

• On Avoiding Hypotheticals:

  “If the client flips it to a hypothetical, that’s not a seven. That’s not need work.” – Dr. Hawkins (21:00)

• The Simplicity of Secure Bonding:

  “I can’t tell you how many [withdrawers] have come up and hugged me… ‘If I knew that’s all it took, I could have been doing this for years.’” – Dr. Hawkins (37:40)

• On Not Knowing:

  “If, even in step seven, [the client] says I don’t know, that’s perfect… we want to massage and stay with [that moment].” – Dr. Hawkins (38:28)

• Final Wisdom:

  “Don’t try to be smooth, just be present.” – Dr. Rayner (43:56)

Important Timestamps

• 02:05 – Reflections on year-end personal/professional “inventory”
• 04:30 – The big paradox of need in EFT, and why it’s loaded
• 06:40 – Dangers of bringing up need too early
• 08:34 – The math metaphor: developmental order in EFT
• 13:27 – “Double green” state and readiness for step 7
• 16:10–18:44 – The pre-7 move: loading the reluctance
• 21:00–24:26 – Dangers of hypothetical enactments; need to anchor in the present
• 24:26–27:01 – Embodied approaches and use of therapist self
• 32:55–34:15 – The simplicity and beauty of enacted needs
• 38:28–39:12 – How to respond when clients ‘don’t know’ their need
• 41:02–42:45 – Using attachment history to inform need work
• 43:12–44:17 – Final takeaways: “Don’t try to be smooth, just be present.”

Episode Tone

Encouraging, reflective, gently humorous, and deeply empathetic toward both therapists and clients. The hosts foster confidence, patience, and humility for therapists facing the emotional intensity of “the big show” in EFT.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode demystifies the “hidden need” in couples therapy—not as a thing to rush or solve, but as a gradual, deeply vulnerable process best approached when both partners are ready. Through stories, metaphors, and specific techniques, the hosts equip therapists with both the mindset and practical moves necessary to facilitate transformative moments at the heart of secure love.