135. Stage 2 Series: Finally The Big Show: Step 7-The Hidden Need

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

Episode 135: Stage 2 Series: Finally The Big Show: Step 7—The Hidden Need
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rayner
Date: January 9, 2026

---

Overview

In this pivotal episode, Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Rayner dive deep into “the big show” of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT): Step 7—accessing and expressing hidden attachment needs. While much of their previous content emphasized the challenges, blocks, and cycles in therapy, this discussion spotlights the transformative moment when clients can finally access and vulnerably articulate their true needs to their partners. The hosts candidly share both clinical wisdom and personal growth, offering practical strategies for therapists to prepare and facilitate these powerful, healing encounters.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Paradox of Need in EFT

• Need is Central, But Chronically Delayed:
  Secure attachment centers on meeting needs, yet in EFT, “need” becomes a dangerous question if introduced too early (04:30–06:40).

  “Really secure attachment is actually all about meeting needs… but as couples therapists, the concept of need is a big trap.” – Dr. Hawkins (04:30)

• The Trap of Early Need Exploration:
  If a therapist asks about needs prematurely in stage one, it tends to invite blame and reactivity (05:42).

  “…what happens is, so that's why in EFT—and parallel on this podcast– needs is one of the very last things that we do, because now we have kind of access to it. …It’s very important and yet it's not something you want to do too early.” – Dr. Hawkins (06:40)

2. Developmental Sequence: Math as a Metaphor

• Learning in Order:
  Like mastering mathematics, clients must gain proficiency in the “basics” (handling cycles, identifying primary emotion) before attempting “trigonometry”—expressing deep needs (08:34–09:47).

  “Don’t try to make your clients do trigonometry when they can't multiply three times three.” – Dr. Hawkins (09:11)

3. Seeding the Need vs. Enacting the Need

• Continuous Seeding:
  Throughout the first six steps, therapists “seed” the language of need without yet asking for vulnerability or direct expression (10:21–13:10).

  “By the time you're trying to think about need, it should have been seeded, I don't know, 50, 60 times per person.” – Dr. Hawkins (12:55)

• Readiness is Crucial: Double Green Lights
  Only when both partners are in a “double green” (open, present, nonreactive) state is it safe to enter Step 7.

  “If you’re not familiar with our light system… double green or you don't even consider talking about most vulnerable attachment need.” – Dr. Hawkins (13:27)

4. Preparing for Step 7—Loading Reluctance

• The Pre-7/7A Move:
  Before enacting need, therapists should “load reluctance”—help clients articulate the fear or reluctance that has blocked expressing needs (16:10–18:44).

  “Bringing it to… hyper color green by loading reluctance. Which is another form of enacting a fear of reaching.” – Dr. Hawkins (16:38)

5. Making Need Alive: Avoiding Hypotheticals

• From Hypothetical to Here-and-Now:
  It’s tempting for clients (and less experienced therapists) to talk about needs hypothetically (“if only my partner would…”). True transformation occurs when the need is expressed in the present moment (21:00–32:55).

  “If the client flips it to a hypothetical, I want the listeners to know that’s not a seven. That’s not need work.” – Dr. Hawkins (21:00)

• Concrete Steps for Step 7:

  • Evoking the Body: Focus on embodied, sensory experience to help the withdrawal access need (24:26).
  • Use of Self in Evoking: Therapists may externalize pain, grieve with, and soothe the client to create a safe entry into need (25:00–27:01).
  • Transitioning from Imagining to Acting: After helping the client imagine the needed comfort, therapists must encourage in-the-moment enactments with the partner (“Can you turn and ask for that right now?”).

6. The Simplicity and Power of True Needs

• The Result: Simple, Powerfully Human Requests:
  After all the build-up, the “big show” often boils down to simple but profound expressions: “Could you just put your hand on my shoulder?” (33:22–34:15).

  “Intimate relationships are not complicated. They’re very, very simple—they’re just really hard.” – Dr. Hawkins (34:15)

• Transforming the System:
  These moments reshape not only individual hearts but “the whole rules of their system, their view of self and view of other, which is what stage two is all about.” – Dr. Hawkins (35:54)

7. Working with ‘I Don’t Know’

• When Clients Can’t Name Their Need:
  If, even after all this, a client says “I don’t know,” it’s not failure. Stay with curiosity and use attachment history as hints (38:28–42:14).

  “It is still possible for people, even in step seven, to say, I don’t know. …That’s not a block necessarily. …How would you know? You’ve lived on defense for so long.” – Dr. Hawkins (38:28)

8. Using Attachment History

• Mining the Assessment:
  Look for clues in past interviews: safe people, coping in childhood, what was soothing for younger selves. Bring forward those answers at the right moment (41:05–42:45).

9. Final Wisdom: Presence Over Smoothness

• Therapist Vulnerability:
  Don’t aim for perfect phrasing; aim for authenticity and calm presence (43:12–44:17).

  “Don’t try to be smooth, just be present.” – Dr. Rayner (43:56)

• Model for Caregivers:
  This lesson is as relevant to therapists as to caregivers in couples—being truly present and engaged is enough.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Paradox of Need:

  “The concept of need is a big trap… if you go for need too early, you end up inviting the cycle in.” – Dr. Hawkins (04:30–06:40)

• The Math Metaphor:

  “Don’t try to make your clients do trigonometry when they can't multiply three times three.” – Dr. Hawkins (09:11)

• Double Green Lights:

  “This is the one time in EFT where I will not go towards a block. If I have any sense that I’m about to get blocked, I’m just gonna wave off of need.” – Dr. Hawkins (13:54)

• On Loading Reluctance:

  “Bring it to hyper color green by loading reluctance… another form of enacting a fear of reaching.” – Dr. Hawkins (16:38)

• On Avoiding Hypotheticals:

  “If the client flips it to a hypothetical, that’s not a seven. That’s not need work.” – Dr. Hawkins (21:00)

• The Simplicity of Secure Bonding:

  “I can’t tell you how many [withdrawers] have come up and hugged me… ‘If I knew that’s all it took, I could have been doing this for years.’” – Dr. Hawkins (37:40)

• On Not Knowing:

  “If, even in step seven, [the client] says I don’t know, that’s perfect… we want to massage and stay with [that moment].” – Dr. Hawkins (38:28)

• Final Wisdom:

  “Don’t try to be smooth, just be present.” – Dr. Rayner (43:56)

---

Important Timestamps

• 02:05 – Reflections on year-end personal/professional “inventory”
• 04:30 – The big paradox of need in EFT, and why it’s loaded
• 06:40 – Dangers of bringing up need too early
• 08:34 – The math metaphor: developmental order in EFT
• 13:27 – “Double green” state and readiness for step 7
• 16:10–18:44 – The pre-7 move: loading the reluctance
• 21:00–24:26 – Dangers of hypothetical enactments; need to anchor in the present
• 24:26–27:01 – Embodied approaches and use of therapist self
• 32:55–34:15 – The simplicity and beauty of enacted needs
• 38:28–39:12 – How to respond when clients ‘don’t know’ their need
• 41:02–42:45 – Using attachment history to inform need work
• 43:12–44:17 – Final takeaways: “Don’t try to be smooth, just be present.”

---

Episode Tone

Encouraging, reflective, gently humorous, and deeply empathetic toward both therapists and clients. The hosts foster confidence, patience, and humility for therapists facing the emotional intensity of “the big show” in EFT.

---

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode demystifies the “hidden need” in couples therapy—not as a thing to rush or solve, but as a gradual, deeply vulnerable process best approached when both partners are ready. Through stories, metaphors, and specific techniques, the hosts equip therapists with both the mindset and practical moves necessary to facilitate transformative moments at the heart of secure love.

Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

What about need? We're 135 episodes in. We've hardly mentioned it. Let's talk about needs.

[Podcast Announcer]

Welcome to the Leading Edge and Emotionally Focused. All right, here are some Leading Edge training options to train with Dr. Hawkins. Mark the following dates. February 5th through 7th, Core Skills 1 and 2 in Bend, Oregon. February 18th through 21st, Externship in Houston, Texas. March 5th through 7, Core Skills 1 and 2 in Washington, Baltimore. EFT community. March 11th through 14th, Externship in Atlanta, EFT community. March 26th through 28th, Core Skills 3 and 4 in North Texas, EFT community. May 6th through 9th, Externship in main EFT community. And to train with Dr. Ryan Reyna, we have January 15th through 17th, Core Skills 3 and 4in Huntington, West Virginia. January 29th through 31st, Core Skills 1 and 2 in North Texas. EFT community, Plano in. February 19th through 21st, Core Skills 3 and 4 in Missoula, Montana. February 26th through the 28th, Core Skills 3 and4, Indianapolis, Indiana.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

What about need? We're 135 episodes in. We've hardly mentioned it. Let's talk about needs.

[Podcast Announcer]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

All right, everybody. Welcome back. Good to be back with you. Good to have you in studio, Ryan. And as always, you know, we usually, we, me and Ryan always resist on saying anything that kind of dates the podcast, but I think this one is the end of the year. It's one of those times when I think a lot of us are taking inventory personally, professionally, relationally in so many ways and maybe even spiritually just trying to say, like, you know, what, what did I, what did I learn? What did I experience in 2025? What do I want to aim for in 2026? And so for you as therapists, I thank you because I know when we're doing this inventory, we're not only just thinking about ourselves, because when a therapist thinks about getting better, there's hundreds and probably thousands of people that benefit from therapists that really think about doing their own personal kind of inventories and how to grow. So thank you for taking the time at the end of the year. And one, I'll say this too, thank you for also, it's a privilege for the training dollars you invested in 2025. To. To grow in your craft. Not even just if it's eft any modality. The CEUs Ethics CEUs. You know, just thank you for your investment in this year and how you're already getting your mind and heart ready for the next.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, I agree. Thank you for how you put your heart into this. All the ways that you invest, every once in a while, it's easy to forget. Every once in a while, get a glance of the importance of our work. I was at the mall recently and I had.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That sounds outdated.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. Had a former client come up in a department store with my family there and like, put their hand on my arm and said thank you. Had a tear in their eye. Right. And you, you forget. You forget, you know, that, you know, session 17, where you hung in there just long enough to work with the block and what difference that makes years and years down the road. So. So thank you for your investment. I want to say I want you to trust that it matters, even if it doesn't seem like it. It does. So thank you for your work.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's a good one, Ryan. Thank you for that. Yeah. The little things, that's my hope for in 2026. I want to, like, take the time to just behold the little things more and appreciate good, good stuff. Yeah. Right. But here we are. You're right. How did this happen? But, you know, I guess it makes sense because, I mean, what grabs our attention so much is all the blocks and the mistrust and the reactivity and the stuck places. We've dedicated so much time to that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

But here we are. We're finally at the big show.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. I think it's a big paradox, this, this idea of need because on one hand, Right. We're always doing parts or versions on one hand, really secure attachment is actually all about meeting needs. Right. That's what it is. Responsiveness. It's that caregiving system. Right. My body, as the caregiver sees your vulnerability, moves towards you to meet the need. But there's a great paradox on the other hand, because as couples therapists, need. The concept of need is a big trap.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Especially in stage one and even too early in stage two, but especially in stage one.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Say more.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. And this is. This is the part that I don't even like saying sometimes because it doesn't sound humanistic. It's a one up kind of stance a little bit. Because our grounded theory suggests that we already know the need for the most part.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. So as a medic, if someone's really really hurt. And they're crying or screaming or they're in shock. You don't go into. What do you need right now? So much? I mean, other than just like a cup of water or a blanket.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Right, right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Your triaging is based on what you know, not on what they know.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because they're not in a place to tell you. Right. So they don't have. They don't have access. They don't have contact to be able to talk about what they really need from a secure attachment lens. So when you go for need too early, you end up inviting the cycle in is basically what happens. So it ends up being a bunch of blame. Right. So that's what most couples therapists do. They're in session two or three sometimes. Session one. What are you needing for this relationship? Someone. Someone lays out something which is a veiled form of blame. And now the therapist is trying to mediate and negotiate the. The exchange of needs, and that's. It's just a disaster. The cycle takes that over. So that's why in eft and then parallel on this podcast, needs kind of. Is one of the very last things that we do, because now we have that kind of access to it. So it is very important. And yet it's not something you want to do too early.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So that's the. That's the caution of it in stage one is bringing it up too early when they're probably not going to go to it vulnerably. They're going to give you more reactivity. That happened to me. I remember one case, it taught me this lesson really clear maybe a year or so ago, and I was like, you know, kind of like. And so what do you need in this place or what? You know, and like, well, I just need my partner to do their work.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So that way I don't have to talk about these things.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Negative model of other.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Exactly.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So when you go for need too early, you don't get negative model of other. And. And that's not that person trying to be difficult.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Nope.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

They don't know exactly. They don't have access to their own heart. They've not. They've not ironically, in that case, done the work and, you know, individually, inter, psychically, and interpersonally. So the safety level is not high enough for them to be able to look deep inside and go, here's what I'm actually longing for.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah. And then I. My cleanup was. You're right, that's my bad. Yeah, that was. That was a big, really big question to ask in this moment. Because my guess is to ask for what you need so clearly and vulnerably is probably really scary. So then we pivoted to. And what makes that scary? What's the. Then we pivoted to the.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right back to primary emotion. Exactly. Which is where they are. So I think two things. One, I said this on this podcast before. I do think it's a helpful concept. It helps me at least, you know, early on in the process, up through the early parts of stage two, we already know what your clients want, but it's not a vulnerable need. What your clients want is make my partner quit doing their protection move. Right. That's it. Like, quit. Make them quit doing their protection move, which is very tied to the need, actually, if you think about that. Why do they want the partner to quit doing their protection move?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

There we go.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I want the closeness. I want the contact. I don't want to have this most important person in the world not share their self with me. Like, there is a romantic, beautiful, deep need there. It's just way ahead of where they are.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And you know, you've seen this, you know, using a metaphor of mathematics, trying to help people learn eft.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

If you recall that.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Like, math has an order.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It's not an exact order, but it is a developmental order. You have to learn the numbers, you have to learn how to add and subtract them for a significant period of time before you can ever consider things like multiplication, long division. You have to stay there for a period of time for someone to sort of move that to a mastery level before we start going to Pre algebra, algebra 1, algebra 2, then that takes years.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Whoa.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

In math. And then before we ever go to like, a trigonometry, a calculus, I quit somewhere along the way. But you can't fake that. And a couple's ability to bond mirrors that. And so step seven, old school. Step seven in EFT is accessing the deepest, most vulnerable attachment need and asking for it in session right here, right now, today. And so that's trigonometry. Don't try to make your clients do trigonometry when they can't multiply three times three.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Now, that took what I was going to say. That was a great example. It's not trying to get them to do trigonometry when they're in basic math. That is really good. And when we're trying to. And I don't think I could almost hear George in the back of my mind, I'm still going to ask about the Need. But what we need to say for George is he's going to ask about it and. And then he's going to figure out what's the reactivity, all those kind of stuff. But he's not going to try and make you sell out on it and, like, go for it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, that's what George says behind the scenes is he doesn't actually expect him to be able to do it.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And that's a big deal. Yeah. So we're going to. We're going to reference need throughout.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Seeding attachment is another way of talking about need. You know, we. I load. Affect assembly every time almost with longing. I want to have this closeness. I want to know we're on the same page. Boom, here's the trigger happen. Right. So we're not leaving it out. What we're saying is we don't expect people to be able to access it and ask for it. That's trigonometry.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's good.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. So timing's a big deal. And yet you could also push back on us. And I would say you're right, because if we never talk about trigonometry, whenever the couple gets there, do you know what to do? So I want to spend some time talking about that today.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

All right, let's do it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And you know, this is why when Ryan just. We were talking about this here, it's. I do think this is important. We do need to talk about. We do need to have. For us as therapists, we need to have an idea of a working concept of the need in our mind and also like to see. Because I want to be able to recognize when the need can't happen and the impact it's having. I liked even in the title, the way we're going to title, this is finally the big show. And the key word in that is not only the big show, it's the part. And I know great wisdom. Right. The hidden.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Hidden need.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Hidden need. It's hidden and maybe I can begin to see it. And I, of course, I come in with a working hypothesis around it. But it is hidden. It is far away. And it's hard to describe something to someone that's so far away and they feel like it's unreachable. So we do need to start making. But I'll say this. Here's how I'm addressing in stage one, when things happen, I do keep saying, like, so this is what your heart needed. You just needed to slow down and then hear your partner just Stay with you and say it's all right to have this fear or something like that. So. But I'm not going big sell out. Like in this moment of pain, I just look at that, good job. Because when you were in this place and you just kind of start blaming your partner doesn't see what's happening in your heart. All they hear is a blame. Or when you shut down and go away, they don't see what you really need is just someone to be able to stay with you and be with you in that place. So good job on you. I'm seeding it the whole time. Then when it comes stage two, so. And because it's my couple, it's like, so, hey, we've been here a lot and I think I'm getting an idea of what you need in this place. But I want to make sure we really stay here when we're in this most painful place where you get these messages about you and you're so afraid of losing your partner. I'm just curious though, but by the way, that's not the first time with me. They've probably even heard the concept. Like you said, it's been seeded along the way. That's a good way to say it. We're seeding it always along the way. So that way we. We can find it in step seven.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Definitely. Yeah. We should have. By the time you're trying to think about need, it should have been seated, I don't know, 50, 60 times per person.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

I love how you put numbers.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

They're sort of made up, but a lot. I'm trying to say. More than three?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You know, more than 10. This should be referenced and seated multiple times. Excuse me. So, you know, it's like there's a reason you plant seeds. Oh. Because in the right season, we're going to harvest that.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Come on. I'm a gardener too.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Okay. Okay. I didn't know.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's right. Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. So that's important. I want to just take a step back really quickly. We ought to have double green lights before we're considering this. Okay. So if you're not familiar with our light system, green light just means openness, presence, non reactivity. The block seasons are kind of mostly over and both people in that session today or double green or you don't even consider talking about most vulnerable attachment need.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's a good safety statement.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

This is the one time in eft where I will not go towards a block. So if I have any sense that I'm about to get blocked, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna wave off of need. This is the only time. Because a step seven enactment is to turn now and say. And you sort of repeat the work in this place. I get scared in this place. Right. What's next? I feel like I'm unlovable. I feel like you wouldn't want me. Can you give me a hug right now and tell me I still matter? Right. That would be, you know, overly fast version of a step seven. I will not ask someone to do that unless I'm fairly certain the partner will respond. And that's not true for 99 of enactments. I will enact into a block all the time in stage one. Otherwise, you just won't do them. But this kind of vulnerability only comes with the double green. So I think that's a really important point that, that I wasn't real clear on early in my training. So we got to have double greens, but we're not going to consider step seven deepest need.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And so I want to think about that too, because one. One thing that gives me a little bit more. Oh, that's right. Was that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's okay. Go ahead.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Okay. One thing I was thinking about was, you know, part of. We're getting some assurance here because even in that step six, the partner showing us acceptance says maybe they could. But here's one. I. I remember it was maybe two, three years ago. I don't know if it came from you or George. Even before the step seven, y' all do something that helps. I feel, clear the way. And you. You do this enactment with. And. And what keeps you from reaching for your partner? Which, by the way, we're referencing some of that in stage one, but it hits different here because we're deep. And it comes right after that step five, where that partner gives acceptance and you're like. And you go back to the finish the mission like. And so what's it like that you went to that scary place where you feel like a failure and your partner says, I will be here with you. I can accept you even in this place. But what keeps. When you get that body check, but what keeps you from showing them this? What keeps you from reaching for their comfort in this place? That's a beautiful thing. I think it helps. Start clearing the way and setting the stage for step seven.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. I know we're going to go to a break in a second, but George teaches this sometimes. And I'll tell a quick George story, but he teaches this as kind of a pre 7 or like a 7A. And it's to me it's just a great way to get a green light. Assuring green light and get it even greener. Right. So he's. It's bringing it to. If you think about the color green, you can bring it to hyper color green by loading reluctance.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Which is. Which is another form of enacting a fear of reaching. Because in this place, when I'm feeling so bad about myself, I feel like I don't deserve to have someone come find me. And if you saw me here, the sense is you wouldn't want me. So that's that deep. It's kind of the end of five. But it also segues us into deep seven to go ahead and enact that and because what it does to the caregiver is like really, really crystallizes. Oh, this is a big deal. I gotta be on my best caregiving self right here. And that's a key moment of a pre7 loading that reluctance.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

All right, let's take a quick break.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. As I've mentioned before, I have a couple of events here that I want to share with you, invite you to January 15th through the 17th, 2026 in Huntington, West Virginia. We have a couple seats left open For Core Skills 3 and 4 if you want to jump back in. So you're invited then. The big one I'm excited about. James and I were talking just before about what a pleasure it is to help new communities try to grow eft and Hampton Roads EFT community out in Virginia is doing a great job. They have experienced clinicians, but they're going to launch the first time their externship with me and a very small. It'll be a cozy group. September 15th through the 18th, 2026. So it's going to be a great group and small and new, which is always fun. And an added bonus, this is going to be in VA beach out there with the Navy SEALs. We're going to be literally at a hotel on the beach. Virginia Beach, Virginia, September 15th through the 18th, 2026. Repeaters get 50% off. Please tell your friends.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Do you need helpers? All right, back in. So I like that. That's. And that was a big thing for me, Ryan, that ability to even have that little. Before I go into the seven of what's the reluctance? What's kept you from even considering that your needs can be an option on the table to have discussed with your partner?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And I do feel like it helps set the table. I never thought about how it awakens a caregiver, which makes sense Right, it does.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I think it's mostly for the caregiver, actually, because as the caregiver, we. Let's don't talk about them. All of us have cycles. And when you're in the cycle with your partner, you really don't see their pain. Even if they get more tuned in and they can kind of let you know there's some fear. We don't have access to the worst of their inner dialogue. Right. Where there it gets dark on them. And I think that's. I think it's true for everybody, actually, but particularly a clinical couple. And so we are really expositing the worst of this person's suffering and we're bringing it forward to the partner. Love your quote. I heard it in the last episode from Sue. The response from the partner is a flashlight. The response from the partner is like a stadium light. That's well said. So we're trying to bring all of this forward now. Deepest pain, deepest fears. Worst of the negative model of self. The deepest fears of reaching. Like, I have to hide myself. I have to hide this part of myself for sure, because you wouldn't want the parts of me that are ugly. My withdrawers often use the word gross. This deep sense of rejection, self rejection. Right. And now we're bringing this forward, ironically, as a way to load the deepest attachment need and prepare that caregiving system to show up. So it's. It's a. It's a great pre 7. The quick story I was going to tell you.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Trained with George hundreds of times, and George's does so many things. Well, preparing when you co. Teach with him is not one of them. And so he gives you almost 20 seconds before you got to go teach a section or do a role play, which ended up being really good for me. And now when I mentor people, I do the same thing to them. And they're mad. They're like ready to call somebody on me. Like, you got to give me notice. I'm like, I don't, I don't. And George was right, you know, to be good at this, to teach this, you got to be able to do it spontaneously. Right? So he threw me out to do a step seven in a role play. 20 seconds notice. I'm like, all right. And so I would. I would start it and he'd be like, no, no, no, reset that. He reset me like 10 times. Finally I'm like, just come up here and do it yourself. And so he didn't, but he's like, what I want to see you do is to load reluctance. Ryan first, like, okay, I need to see you kind of do another round of that fear of reaching to do the Pre 7, he wanted me to say, or he wanted me to have the client, the one I'm going for, about to go for need on to say in this place where I'm feeling so gross, I feel like you wouldn't want me. Go ahead and enact that and then recheck my six. Like, what's behind you or what could get you. I'm going to check my six here and make sure they're green. And now we have double greens. And now find a way to creatively load the need, which we're going to talk about now. To load that need. Then the hardest part is to make it alive right now. And what happens is, even in stage two, for people who are double green, a therapist who's not running enough control, which I know we don't like to do, that the. The cycle, even if it doesn't get them into blocks, we'll flip this to a hypothetical. And if. And if the client flips it to a hypothetical, I want the listeners to know that's not a seven. That's not need work. Meaning when it gets this dark for me, it would mean a lot if you could, you know, reassure me. Give me a hug. Okay. Those are good things, reassurance and hugs. But what happened is I just flipped it into a hypothetical. One of the unique things about EFT is we don't spend a whole lot of time talking about what the couple is going to do. Yeah, we do it now. And so step seven is, I think, the one, maybe the most awkward EFT move. It's absolutely the most awkward role play in. In trainings, people come in with a sense of failure. I'm like, I get it. It's all right. So my big advice that people are finding helpful is quit trying to be smooth. Quit trying to be smooth. You don't have to be smooth with your language. You can jumble this up. You can say, hold on a minute, I said that wrong. Let me come back. Just get it right. Just get it right and take your time. Okay, So I think again, fighting the hypothetical. So the two things that we're up against, if we have double green, that would be the main part of the hard work to get here, to get to the double green. But then it's the. To fight not making it hypothetical and. And making it alive in the room right now. Right. So that's what's tricky. So some people take a simple Approach. And there's nothing wrong with simple. Maybe Occam's razor, the most simple is the best way. Maybe I don't do it. I don't like it, but maybe it works, which is just to even. Just talk about the body. So in stage two, one of the battles do an episode on this. Actually in stage two, one of the battles is the couple is actually not in a painful place. And then. But then we have to continue to reenter pain. And we'll do an episode on. On using the body to do that. And I'll do some Gail Palmer quotes. But today I want to talk about how you load a need. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this, and I can share mine as well. But some people take a simple approach, which is to say that sensation in your body, that fear right now, what is that place needing? And that's kind of helpful.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because it takes them sort of out of their head. Not that we're going to say that to the client, but, you know, ask for. Particularly for a withdrawer, say, what do you need? They don't know. They survive by getting rid of their needs. So asking a withdrawer about what they need, they have no idea. And pursuers, it's a parallel process. They survive by focusing on other. So to stop and go, what am I needing? That's not. That's not a request of their withdrawal. Change is the equal tension for them. So this is hard for both people.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I probably for me, in step seven, I think my go to first and foremost, you know, my style, Ryan, It's. I use me a lot to embody the visceral sense. And I'm stealing some language from Leanne now, but I definitely use me to embody their pain outside of them, externalize. And I just keep like, oh, my gosh.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So you grieve with them.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

I am really getting a sense of how painful this is. But, hey, I know I'm saying painful, and it probably is going to what you're saying in the body. But even as I say that, I feel it in my gut. But where do you notice it right now when you're in this place and these messages just keep closing in on you? It's like a deadly script that just keeps running through your mind over and over. It's like, what if I have, like, a person that's in the sports? I'd be like, this is like the ticker on ESPN from hell. It's just telling you all over and over again how much you fail how much you. How much you suck. And you just see it run across your screen all the time. It's all. The show is still going on. But that ticker just keeps saying, but underneath, this is who I am. And that's hard. But I just want to stay here. Can we just for a moment, when the cycle is going, you never get to slow down. You just have to hide this and that's what takes most of your energy. But if we weren't hiding and we just could be curious, like, what is it like inside of you? And I will get that potty part and just. We're going to be curious here. If we could listen to that part of you right now, I wonder what it would cry out for that would bring comfort to you right here, right now. And I don't expect you to know it right away, but we're going to stay here together and we're going to figure it out. And I just start setting the stage like that and I'm just going to go. I'm not in my mind. It's. We're going to wander for a few moments, but. But that's my walk into it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So I love it. That's great stuff. That's a good review right there. Literally and figuratively. Like, you're re teeing the whole thing up and repetition is really important because you just went through all of the stage one work with me in a sentence. The work that you've done with me.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Exactly.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And then you drop me. I love the ticker. ESPN ticker with all the negative models of self. So you're just walking me into that dark place. So you're staying the scene and you're evoking. So that's a really important point.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You don't want to just start grabbing. You don't want to just ask someone what they need without a significantly large evoking process. If they're answering your question in summaries, you're not anywhere close to the spot. So some people get confused early on in eft. So you do a lot of evoking, a lot of use of self and.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So forth scenes I really want.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And then you're trying to sort of excavate the deepest, most vulnerable attachment need in that place.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah, got it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah, that's good. So I think that's an awesome thing. You know, right back to that time when George put me in that role play with 20 seconds and I messed it up. You know, it's funny. You don't forget things like that, though. Yeah. So he actually He. I guess he and I kind of co. Did this. We set up the use of a hypothetical.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Because it does very similar things to what you just said. And then there's a con of it. I'm going to come back to the. To the con of this. But, you know, once again, when you have someone in this place, we have double green lights. A rationale is to say things are so much better, but for so many years, this was not this way. And you can even remember that right now. That's pretty key. And we're going to do an episode on that later. But, you know, can. Can we just spend a few minutes talking about that painful place? Right. And so kind of what you just said, we kind of repeat the work. We try to evoke this again. We're using self, we're slowing down. This is all stage two. So we're deep and slow and risky V all the time. Right? And so then one option is to say, so I just want you to imagine that today's, you know, Wednesday, that even though things are so much better, we know the cycle doesn't give up, Right. And next Tuesday you come home from work, right? And it's been a bad day. We really haven't connected if it's a pursuer in particular, we haven't connected in two and a half days. And there's a part of you that starts to question, does this work even done anything? Or if it's a withdraw or feeling like you're always disappointing your partner and it's that just dark heaviness. You get out of your car, right? You walk into your home and it's just like, this sucks, man. We're not better cycles. One, my partner doesn't care, right? And so as you, as you play that out, it's not hard for someone to remember this because I've spent the last at least seven years evoking. Right? But I'm in a hypothetical. And so you're in this terrible place. You're feeling really disconnected from everything. You know, life kind of sucks right now. And you walk in the kitchen, maybe you got groceries in your hands, you put things on the counter, and it's just this place of incredible defeat. You could repeat their medal of self again or their fears, but this time, something happens. Your partner is in the den, and your partner catches this somehow. We've done enough work in our office that they're able to recognize this with you. And they see, oh, my partner is in that horrible, torturous dungeon again. And the partner is not hesitant Right now, your partner walks right over to you. Excuse me, and says or does the perfect thing to comfort that horrible, painful place. What is your partner saying or doing right in that moment which takes that awful pain away? Right. So you see what we're doing there?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Instead of trying to get them to manufacture what they need, I'm trying to get them to imagine what they need. And people are pretty good to say, he would just. Or they would just. Or she would just. And usually it's beautiful. Comfort, Contact, man.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So it's not like a negotiation. It's not like a, here's what we need to work on. You know, positive startups, academic stuff. It's usually like they would just tell me I still matter. Or they would look me in the eyes and put their hands on my shoulders and say, you know, I got your back. We're in this together. Or some people with big tears just say. They would just put their arms around me and say nothing. And I'm like, beautiful. You just touched your deepest. I don't say this, but I'm just thinking we just touched your. Your most vulnerable attachment need. That is the hold me tight moment that. That Sue's given us. Right. There's. That. There's that set. So the beautiful part of that is it's evoking. And everyone can imagine being in that place and walking in the kitchen and. And being alone. That is the experience of being in a cycle. We all can relate to that. It's easy and it's organically evoked through a hypothetical. That's the good news. Here's the bad news. It's in a hypothetical. So there's the con of doing it that way because we have it in their living room, imaginarily, next Tuesday. But today's Wednesday. Right. It's five days before this alleged event happens. So now we have to find a way to reclimb back into the moment and get them to ask for now. So if they said they would put their arms on both my shoulders, look me in the eye and say, I got your back. I believe in you. We're in this together. Let's say that's what they came up with. Now, my challenge is to get them to do that now in session.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right. Which to me is to reenter the body and talk about. It's here, right now, today, in this room. And can you turn and ask for that right now?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's the key to that. The re entry.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

If you don't do the re entry, I feel like it can still be a good beautiful moment and beneficial. But that re entry is key.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I'm not even sure it's a good beautiful moment. I agree with you. Because it's just going to sound like a demand or another because that's kind of what they do anyway.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Fairy tale, a movie.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Or even a criticism. Yeah. Because it's kind of, if it's not done organically, you can kind of come across like, here's what you're not doing for me.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

But also, you know what I find with this, Ryan? You know, and it's so funny. Here's the thing that I was thinking about. Out of the 130something episodes we've done, talking about all the hard work and then we get to this beautiful moment and it's something like, could you just put my hand. Your hand on my. I'm like, what? This is what we're gonna do.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That is so true, James. But that's the beauty of it is it's simple.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

It's the beauty of secure. I know this sounds weird. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. And this helped me with the remember, like I always believe it's just there. It's just the pain and the fear of the negative cycle. Buries it. And then it's made it go really distant. It's almost like you ask someone like, did you dream about being at as a little kid? And they're like. And it's like, oh, I did want to be a fireman, but I just wanted to help people. Like. But it's something that they've been come so distant from. And it's weird when someone asks them to go back, especially in a scary place.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You're so right, man. But because as. As hard as cycles are, intimate relationships are not complicated. They're not. They're very, very simple. They're just really hard. It's not easy to ask for the person who's hurt you a lot of times and the person who means the most in the world to put their hand on both your shoulders and look deep in your eye and let me know I matter. And you got my back. That's actually, that's trigonometry. Like it. You can't fake that. You can't. You don't get to just have people do it in session seven because you want them to. Right. I mean I see people like, why don't you have them do it there? I'm like, can you go home and do it tonight? Oh, well, like, yeah, exactly. Me either. So that's not. I'm not trying to be mean there. I'm just saying I actually don't want couples to do this in stage one, okay. Because even if you could, and some clients are so motivated and so lovely people, they might skip mathematics and multiplication and algebra 2 and just go do a trig problem with you. But the problem is we don't have the muscles develop. They don't know their cycle. So the cycle is going to get them. And now. And now when the cycle gets them, it's going to hurt them even more. So this is not the message. This is not. Skip all that. The message is when you have all those muscles built now let's learn to facilitate these hold me tight, deep corrective bonding events, which reshapes not only the people, but the whole rules of their system, their view of self and view of other, which is what stage two is all about.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And this is something I want to say about that hypothetical, the way you laid it out. Right. This is why I like the work we do on this podcast with success and vulnerability and even just with other, you know, other people. When you get to sit and talk, what I like is I analyze that move. Here's what I think it does too, that I like the move I'm doing says look within.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

You start with the look without. And it's almost look at the possibility of that person and imagine a possibility of them actually comforting.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Instead of just letting them imagine you're not gonna do it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So you. And then you get them to actually visualize it. So I think there is something to. I that's. I'm just trying to find all the. The parts about that that I. I do appreciate. And it does say, like, what would they be doing? Like, let's reimagine. Let's not just talk about all the ways they failed you. They've got it wrong. Like, literally. Yeah. Could you even imagine. And some of your clients, they don't ever get a chance to really, truly imagine the good. And I'm a big person. Like, if I set a goal, I have to find some way to imagine. Like, even when I was going for my PhD at the school where I went, they had a doctoral robe that was downstairs. I would, after every final exam, I go look at that doctoral robe because I was imagining graduation day. I imagine the hooding ceremony. I imagined on that kept me going.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

So I just, I like, now we have Doc Hawk.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

There you go. Now you have Doc.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Hope matters.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So I like that. That and then the part that makes it so good is not only do you get them to look as their partner as a potential comforting source, then I'm thinking about the partner over there listening. They're sitting there like. Because they're probably like, I don't know what to do. I've tried everything I thought to know. And so it's like at that moment, if I'm a withdraw and I'm hearing my, my, my, Nicole, is it. I'm like, I'm taking notes. What do you. What do you want me to do? Yeah, because now I'm finally going to get it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Oh, that's the, the, the strangest experience. When I finish an eft with those withdrawers. As Chad Imhoff says, withdrawers always leave the room last. Right? Not always, but most of the time. Withdrawers leave the physical. If they're. If you're in person, they leave the room last. I can't tell you how many of them have come up and hugged me and the partners now left the room and they'd be like, if I knew that's all it took, I could have been doing this for years. It's not entirely true.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Their partner's nervous system has to be open to it. So it's not as simple as if you would just do these three things, it would work. But for them, they're like, that's all. Because with jars bring in a set of encyclopedias of all the things they've been working on and none of them work. When really we could have solved it in less than a paragraph.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

I resemble that statement.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Exactly. It's less than a paragraph. What a good withdrawer has to do in a secure bond. But it's not that simple. There have to be an openness to the process and so forth. So I want to go back, though, because I like part of what you said there. Like all of what you said. But I want to comment on part. It is still possible for people, even in step seven, to say, I don't know. Yeah, and that's perfect. Just say that's perfect. I love that. I'm not sure. Right. Here we are, right where we're supposed to be. This place of hanging out and this curiosity. I see what the cycle's done to you. How would you know? You've lived on defense for so long, it's hard to even imagine. Right. So don't let that throw you off. That's not a block necessarily. It's just a moment that we want to massage and stay with. Take your time.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yep.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

We're about to enter a season of lots of positivity with this couple. So it's an exciting time. But I want to say this. I'm great when the client doesn't know, but as a therapist, I'm not as great. And we're going to wrap up here shortly, but I want you to have an idea. And so I had a training recently. Someone a core skills four was asking a question and the conversation went a good direction. So let's take this all the way back to little Jimmy. Right? So if you haven't, if you haven't heard that metaphor, I'm not going to go through the whole thing. But it's just a hypothetical story about a three year old little boy who falls down on a playground, has a serious injury and a caretaker mom and this metaphor and how they dance. And so little Jimmy has to get that clear signal out. We want mom to be a R E, accessible, responsive, emotionally engaged. And, and so most people at trainings will say things like, I feel lost in eft. I'm like, you're never lost in eft. You can be stuck but not lost. And what do you mean, Ryan? And it's like, well, because it's little Jimmy and we work one little Jimmy at a time. So to the bottom line, we're talking about needs. What, what are the variety of things that mom might do with little Jimmy that are good and if your client doesn't say one of those things, keep helping them. Keep helping them. Right? Because I don't know, little Jimmy might be different culturally. Little Jimmy may want a few less words. Little Jimmy maybe really crave touch. Little Jimmy may not crave touch as much. Little Jimmy may want to hear that mom believes in him. Little Jimmy may want mom to shut up and just give me a hug. Right? So this is the nuancing of need. But all the needs should be things that mom would do with little Jimmy.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You understand? So it should be in that category.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And to say that one, we do have an idea because remember you, you heard this in the assessment when you asked that question about, hey, who were the safe people in your life and what was it that made them safe? Hey, when you went through hard things as a kid, I wonder how did you cope with that?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Perfect.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And then, and then how did people respond to you that made you trust them? And then the one I like that you added in Ryan and let's say that version of you walked in the room today and sat right on the sofa here. What do you think? You know, Ryan, does this Thing like what do you see on their face? What do you see with them? But then when you added that that's pivotal here for step seven is I wonder what do you think? What would you tell them now? The verse, your version now what would you say to them now that they needed to hear? And I pay attention to that question because that is to me that's going to come up in step.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

They just gave you a little teaser of step seven. Nice.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And I'm like so I remember one with jar. He's like oh, you're okay buddy. Yeah, just like you are.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You're going to be okay.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

I was like hold that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Nice.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Stage two came.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I'm like a note of that one.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

So I'm like hey man, I'm just kind of curious. And he hit me with I don't know. Okay, you don't know. I'm let you. I'll let you have your organic chance. I'm just kind of curious though because this reminds me when you told me about that younger version of you and what did that younger version of you need remember that about that hand and those words. But that was too scary to ask for because what would it be if you asked for that now in this relationship? But even I'm just kind of curious. Would you. Would that comfort you from your partner? So I start. I will I might kind of push and supply but is I do have something from that assessment.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I love it, man. I'm actually doing a one day online in May. I think it's the 22nd on using attachment history through the process. You just did it beautifully. So. So what it tells you.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Welcome. Can I get 50 exactly 50.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Not 50%. No. But it does tell you people actually do have it somewh. Yeah, it's there.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

It is.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It's there.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

It truly is.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But doesn't it doesn't mean we need to rush into it.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

But we need to be ready for it when it's there. So lastly for me we have to get it out of the hypothetical into the room and that is awkward. So don't try to be. The best thing I ever got for me is quit trying to be smooth. Ryan, call for time out. Just say hold on a minute. Give me a chance to think. This is an important place. In fact, that's a way to heighten a moment. If your therapist stops and says hang on a minute, I need to think. This is a really important place. Both people are going to double their engagement so feel free to go super slow, super smooth. We have little Jimmy. We have mom here. How do we get it alive in the moment and not make this a summary or hypothetical?

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

That feels like a good quote for the year in a way. Ryan, you don't have to be smooth. You just have to be present.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And the same thing for with Josh. You don't have to be smooth, you just got to be present.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Bumper sticker right there.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

You don't have to be smooth, you just have to be present.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Nice.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

And imagine if our world really embodied that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

It would be different.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. I mean, a caregiver that says, I don't know what to say right now, but I'm here, I'm with you. Like, that's beautiful. That's perfect.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

By the way, that's a great caregiving response because it's saying, I am ar.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It is.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Don't have to be smooth, just be present. 2025, wrapping up AR for me, baby.

[Dr. Ryan Rayner]

All right, y', all, thank you so much for who you are, what you do, and. And thank you once again for allowing us to help be with you in this step seven moment in the big show to help your clients have success here on the leading Edge. Thank you so much.

[Podcast Announcer]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at pushtheleadingedge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner professional training and on his website, ryanraynatraining.com youm can follow James on Facebook and instagram @doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website doc hawklpc.com.