Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy - Episode 136

Stage 2 Series: What Does the End of Stage 2 Really Look Like in EFT?

Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins & Dr. Ryan Reyna
Date: April 1, 2026

Brief Overview

In this episode, Drs. James Hawkins and Ryan Reyna provide a deep dive into one of the pivotal moments in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT)—the successful completion of Stage 2. Drawing on clinical experiences, metaphors from military training, and recent insights from leading EFT trainers, the hosts explore how therapists can recognize (and help clients recognize) the profound shifts that mark the end of Stage 2. They emphasize the transition from effortful "trying" to embodied, instinctual connection, and offer concrete markers of secure attachment bonds, presence, resilience, and internal awareness.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Heavy Lift: Moving Through Stage 2

• Recognizing Stage 2 Success: The end of Stage 2 is a significant accomplishment; couples move from “trying” to “trained” in secure connection ([05:00]).
• Marker of Progress: The positive cycle becomes visible, sustainable, and instinctual—the couple can use and return to it on their own ([05:23]).
• Insight: “A couple that completes stage two has what they signed up for when they entered their relationship ... the negative cycle is no longer killing us. At least we haven’t eliminated it, but we can repair it.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([05:56])

2. From Trying to Training: A Nervous System Shift

• Training vs. Trying: Goal is for new patterns to feel natural, not effortful or forced—comparing successful couples to soldiers who rely on “muscle memory” in stressful moments ([08:05]).
• Metaphor: Inspired by the film “Man on Fire”: “There’s no such thing as try. You’re either trained or not.” ([08:22])

3. Behavioral & Emotional Indicators

• Bodily Knowing: Couples instinctively reach for each other and know how to respond to vulnerability, even under stress ([09:11]).
• Self & Other Awareness: “I can see me and I can see you, and I can see us.”—Indicates ownership of the relational process ([09:28]).
• Play and Depth: Moments of laughter interspersed with the ability to quickly go deep and face difficult material together ([11:16]).

4. Mutual Responsiveness and Caregiving

• Both Partners Engaged: Success requires both partners to access deep vulnerability and provide caregiving responses, not just one ([11:49]).
• Switching "Hats": Ability to move between roles of revealing vulnerability and being the responsive caregiver ([12:45]).
• Memorable Quote: “We’re looking for the presence of that secure bond—that if asked to, or in a real life event, I can go deep and not get stuck in blame or avoidance.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([12:49])

5. Self-Knowledge and Internal Work

• Knowing and Being Known: Paraphrasing Leanne Campbell—clients must be willing to know themselves in order to be known by their partner ([14:18]).
• Bringing all Parts Forward: Clients learn to befriend previously shameful or painful parts of themselves and bring them out in session ([15:15]).

6. The Power of Presence Over Performance

• Presence is Enough: At the end of Stage 2, partners realize it’s not about doing the perfect thing, but simply staying present ([30:46]).
• For Withdrawers: “That’s all I had to do?! Really? Why didn’t you just tell me that earlier?” ([31:28])
• For Pursuers: Realization they don’t have to keep pushing—“It’s almost confusing, but a beautiful, beautiful realization.” ([32:03])

7. Developing Resilience & Embodied Stories

• Beyond Avoidance: The goal isn’t to escape discomfort but to embrace it together—“embrace the suck” ([25:41]).
• Battle Buddies: Military metaphors convey the transformation—clients become one another’s “battle buddy” or “wingman”, facing life’s challenges together ([26:54], [27:06]).
• Embodied Story: At this stage, each partner no longer externalizes their story (blaming society, others, circumstances)—they and their partner have intimately shared and embodied their narratives ([28:01]).

8. Marking the Moment and Encouraging Self-Validation

• Celebrating Effort, Not Just Outcome: Therapists should validate the process and resilience shown, not only the solution achieved ([22:20]).
• Marking Progress: Retrospective marking helps couples recognize and revisit their new, secure patterns ([29:27]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s no longer about trying. It’s about training.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([08:05])
• “You start to see that they have the muscles to go do this, and that gives me that confidence ... they’ll just use that same muscle.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([11:16])
• “You must be willing to know me in order to be known by you.” (paraphrased Leanne Campbell; brought in at [14:18])
• “I have a battle buddy now. They will face the cycle with me.” – Dr. Ryan Reyna ([26:54])
• “Most people work way too hard at their relationships ... when they finally get it, they’re like, all I had to say was, ‘I don’t know what to say right now, but I’m here. I got your back. You’re not going to be alone anymore.’ Boom. That’s it, y’all.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([30:46])
• “Sue built a model from couples, not just for couples ... She delineated the essential element process and helped us set the table so couples could have that beautiful, seductively simple moment.” – Dr. Ryan Reyna ([32:16])

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | | ------------- | --------------------------------------------------------------------- | | 05:00–08:05 | Signs a couple is moving out of Stage 2; what "success" looks like | | 08:05–09:28 | The shift from trying to training; metaphors of military/skill-building| | 11:16–12:45 | What mutual vulnerability and caregiving look like in practice | | 14:18–15:15 | Leanne Campbell’s insights on self-knowledge and relational growth | | 22:19–23:49 | Validating process & presence over outcome | | 25:35–27:07 | Resilience, “battle buddies,” and embracing discomfort together | | 28:01–29:27 | The shift from disembodied to embodied stories | | 30:46–32:03 | The beauty and simplicity of true presence in secure connection | | 32:15–32:53 | Sue Johnson’s model: “from couples, not just for couples” |

Summary Takeaway

End of Stage 2 in EFT is not about perfection, but about transformation: partners begin instinctively reaching for and responding to each other in ways that are deep, resilient, and authentic. The therapists’ role is to help mark, celebrate, and consolidate this new positive pattern. The process is less about learning new tricks and more about training new, embodied habits of connection—and knowing that simply being present, even in pain, is enough.

For therapists and clients alike: Secure bonds are simple, not easy—requiring vulnerability, presence, and a willingness to “embrace the suck” together as battle buddies in the journey of love and healing.