136. Stage 2 Series: What Does the End of Stage 2 Really Look Like in EFT?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy - Episode 136

Stage 2 Series: What Does the End of Stage 2 Really Look Like in EFT?

Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins & Dr. Ryan Reyna
Date: April 1, 2026

Brief Overview

In this episode, Drs. James Hawkins and Ryan Reyna provide a deep dive into one of the pivotal moments in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT)—the successful completion of Stage 2. Drawing on clinical experiences, metaphors from military training, and recent insights from leading EFT trainers, the hosts explore how therapists can recognize (and help clients recognize) the profound shifts that mark the end of Stage 2. They emphasize the transition from effortful "trying" to embodied, instinctual connection, and offer concrete markers of secure attachment bonds, presence, resilience, and internal awareness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Heavy Lift: Moving Through Stage 2

• Recognizing Stage 2 Success: The end of Stage 2 is a significant accomplishment; couples move from “trying” to “trained” in secure connection ([05:00]).
• Marker of Progress: The positive cycle becomes visible, sustainable, and instinctual—the couple can use and return to it on their own ([05:23]).
• Insight: “A couple that completes stage two has what they signed up for when they entered their relationship ... the negative cycle is no longer killing us. At least we haven’t eliminated it, but we can repair it.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([05:56])

2. From Trying to Training: A Nervous System Shift

• Training vs. Trying: Goal is for new patterns to feel natural, not effortful or forced—comparing successful couples to soldiers who rely on “muscle memory” in stressful moments ([08:05]).
• Metaphor: Inspired by the film “Man on Fire”: “There’s no such thing as try. You’re either trained or not.” ([08:22])

3. Behavioral & Emotional Indicators

• Bodily Knowing: Couples instinctively reach for each other and know how to respond to vulnerability, even under stress ([09:11]).
• Self & Other Awareness: “I can see me and I can see you, and I can see us.”—Indicates ownership of the relational process ([09:28]).
• Play and Depth: Moments of laughter interspersed with the ability to quickly go deep and face difficult material together ([11:16]).

4. Mutual Responsiveness and Caregiving

• Both Partners Engaged: Success requires both partners to access deep vulnerability and provide caregiving responses, not just one ([11:49]).
• Switching "Hats": Ability to move between roles of revealing vulnerability and being the responsive caregiver ([12:45]).
• Memorable Quote: “We’re looking for the presence of that secure bond—that if asked to, or in a real life event, I can go deep and not get stuck in blame or avoidance.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([12:49])

5. Self-Knowledge and Internal Work

• Knowing and Being Known: Paraphrasing Leanne Campbell—clients must be willing to know themselves in order to be known by their partner ([14:18]).
• Bringing all Parts Forward: Clients learn to befriend previously shameful or painful parts of themselves and bring them out in session ([15:15]).

6. The Power of Presence Over Performance

• Presence is Enough: At the end of Stage 2, partners realize it’s not about doing the perfect thing, but simply staying present ([30:46]).
• For Withdrawers: “That’s all I had to do?! Really? Why didn’t you just tell me that earlier?” ([31:28])
• For Pursuers: Realization they don’t have to keep pushing—“It’s almost confusing, but a beautiful, beautiful realization.” ([32:03])

7. Developing Resilience & Embodied Stories

• Beyond Avoidance: The goal isn’t to escape discomfort but to embrace it together—“embrace the suck” ([25:41]).
• Battle Buddies: Military metaphors convey the transformation—clients become one another’s “battle buddy” or “wingman”, facing life’s challenges together ([26:54], [27:06]).
• Embodied Story: At this stage, each partner no longer externalizes their story (blaming society, others, circumstances)—they and their partner have intimately shared and embodied their narratives ([28:01]).

8. Marking the Moment and Encouraging Self-Validation

• Celebrating Effort, Not Just Outcome: Therapists should validate the process and resilience shown, not only the solution achieved ([22:20]).
• Marking Progress: Retrospective marking helps couples recognize and revisit their new, secure patterns ([29:27]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s no longer about trying. It’s about training.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([08:05])
• “You start to see that they have the muscles to go do this, and that gives me that confidence ... they’ll just use that same muscle.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([11:16])
• “You must be willing to know me in order to be known by you.” (paraphrased Leanne Campbell; brought in at [14:18])
• “I have a battle buddy now. They will face the cycle with me.” – Dr. Ryan Reyna ([26:54])
• “Most people work way too hard at their relationships ... when they finally get it, they’re like, all I had to say was, ‘I don’t know what to say right now, but I’m here. I got your back. You’re not going to be alone anymore.’ Boom. That’s it, y’all.” – Dr. James Hawkins ([30:46])
• “Sue built a model from couples, not just for couples ... She delineated the essential element process and helped us set the table so couples could have that beautiful, seductively simple moment.” – Dr. Ryan Reyna ([32:16])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | | ------------- | --------------------------------------------------------------------- | | 05:00–08:05 | Signs a couple is moving out of Stage 2; what "success" looks like | | 08:05–09:28 | The shift from trying to training; metaphors of military/skill-building| | 11:16–12:45 | What mutual vulnerability and caregiving look like in practice | | 14:18–15:15 | Leanne Campbell’s insights on self-knowledge and relational growth | | 22:19–23:49 | Validating process & presence over outcome | | 25:35–27:07 | Resilience, “battle buddies,” and embracing discomfort together | | 28:01–29:27 | The shift from disembodied to embodied stories | | 30:46–32:03 | The beauty and simplicity of true presence in secure connection | | 32:15–32:53 | Sue Johnson’s model: “from couples, not just for couples” |

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Summary Takeaway

End of Stage 2 in EFT is not about perfection, but about transformation: partners begin instinctively reaching for and responding to each other in ways that are deep, resilient, and authentic. The therapists’ role is to help mark, celebrate, and consolidate this new positive pattern. The process is less about learning new tricks and more about training new, embodied habits of connection—and knowing that simply being present, even in pain, is enough.

For therapists and clients alike: Secure bonds are simple, not easy—requiring vulnerability, presence, and a willingness to “embrace the suck” together as battle buddies in the journey of love and healing.

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Transcript

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All right, I got three events I would love to have you join or please request that you share with your fellow professionals. I have three externships that'll take place inside of two months, so we will be busy. The first one is the Mothership, the Arkansas EFT Center Externship. So many people that you know and love. Hopefully love will be with us. That's August 1st through the 4th, 2026 in Arkansas. The second one I'll be in Scottsdale, Arizona September 3rd through the 5th doing an externship with those great folks. And last but not least, one I'm super excited about is the Hampton Roads EFT community. That's in Virginia Beach. An externship literally on the beach. That's September 15th through the 18th, 2026. Please join us. All three will also have discounts for repeaters. Come check us out.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Awesome. I have a few events to talk about too. I wish I was good as ran. I have the dates in front of me but that's okay because you can go to my website Doc Hawk L LPC and you can find out all the dates and find registration links. One, I'll be doing externship in Maine and that'll be a beautiful place. Also Alaska. Doing an externship there if you want to come and maybe go hike in the mountains, see a moose, chase a bear, let an eagle land on your shoulder. Come to Externship in Alaska and I'll be doing core skills. Let me make sure I Get this right. 3 and 4 in Bend, Oregon. Another beautiful place. If you just want to get away and relax and see some beautiful mountains, that's a place to go. And of course always raise the fun and Keeping it Hype place in Houston. We'll be doing core skills one and two there. Yeah, so the main one will be in May. Alaska. Externship is in August, Bend is in May and Houston is in June. But here's one that's fun. It's online. I'll be doing attachment injury repair model training with the Leanne Campbell online through the Vegas Lost the Southern Nevada EFT community. But once again you can find out about all of these and more things that Ryan and I are doing on our website. Thank you so much.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapists. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

All right, y'. All. So we're moving into a place. Thank you, man. We've got Grant. I've gotten a lot of. Well, that's right. Before I talk about this episode, we got to do our thank yous. Almost forgot that.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Let's do it.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And so I want to go with my. I say this to people at the end of training, and I tell them. I'm like, I do say this to every community, and I mean it. But I mean this for all therapists, whether you go to eft, thank you for what you do. And I learned to say, I say thank you on the behalf of clients, because I do. The EFT training does cost money. It costs time, and it is experiential. It kind of. It pulls on your nervous system. And I just really, as a military member, I think I really respect the sacrifice you make on the behalf of other people with your time and with your energy and the fact that you're listening to this podcast episode, because chances are this is not available hour for you while you're listening to it, but you're doing it because it tells me something about you. You really care about being good at your craft, and I respect that. And so even that at times, while the cycle may kick your butt in the office and you might like, oh, I suck at this, but you care. And the fact that you care means a lot to me. And on behalf, I think it should mean a lot to your clients as well, too.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

It means a lot to me as well. It's easy in this profession, and I'll be honest with you, I've done it a few times to just kick things into neutral. Come in, have a chat with people. Don't overthink it. Just, you know, be with people. And maybe there's some wisdom to that sometimes, but I really respect how hard you work at this. If you're listening to this man, you're. You're the salt, because you care. I just watched a video this morning of someone on the west coast, and they were trying to get into a draw re engagement with this person with a lot of shame, and they're getting blocked constantly. And this awesome therapist just keeps validating but leaning in and resetting and resetting. I'm like, man, that's impressive. We need more versions of him in the world, this therapist. And so I so appreciate how hard you work and how hard you train and continuing to pursue excellence. Our clients deserve the very best, and you're the best. So thanks for being with us.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Oh, that's sweet.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Thanks for what you do.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah. So thank you for also the feedback we've gotten about the stage two series. It was fun for Ryan and I, and we just want to take some time to slow down and help. So we're kind of transitioning out of it. But today we're going to talk about kind of like, what is happening at the end of stage two. But. But we also. We want to bring in, and we. We're going to have some interviews. I won't say their names because I don't want to put them on the spot if they tell us no, or maybe I'm protecting my own ego there. I don't know. But I want to pull in some of the experts who have had really pioneered this for eft. So hopefully we'll be able to get them in for some interviews here.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Excited about that.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

But, Ryan, let's get to this part. You know, I do see it, like, you know, that's a heavy lift. One just to even make it through stage one is a heavy lift. Then let's say you do hang in there. You get withdrawal. Re engagement. You get the pursuer softening, kind of. What is Ryan Rayna noticing? What are you looking for to tell you? Like, man, I think we have really helped restructure the bond. There's a new positive cycle that they can trace now and they can go back to, like, what are you recognizing there?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I mean, you just said it. We can see them have the positive cycle and use the positive cycle and stay in the positive cycle. Right. And that starts to move us to stage three. I want to say, practically speaking, I try to teach this at core skills because, like, I don't know, 40% of my cases, sometimes a little more than that, I get fired around. Around the second or third session of pursuer softening. And just. It's a consistent pattern that I see over and over and over. And I think it's a good thing. Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah. I never know. Yeah, that's. That's it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. I mean, they've done so much work at that point. They've done so much deep work, they can feel the positive cycle. Therapy is expensive at every level of that word. And so sometimes people just fire you when they're ready. But I do think it's as sue often says it is. It is important to go forward with consolidation, as we'll talk about in future episodes. Episodes, to make sure we really nail down these. These new pieces. But I really think we. We start to know that stage two is over. The couple now has what they wanted. Right. A couple that completes stage two has what they signed up for when they entered their relationship. And that's not only a lot. The negative cycle is no longer killing us. At least we haven't eliminated it, but we can repair it. And it's not just the fact that it's more positive. What, what stands out to me is we have the installation of these deep bridges. You know, we have the experiential installation where when life hurts us deeply, we are practice now at going towards the other, and the other is practiced at responding under greatest pressure under the most negative, most painful, vulnerable areas of our life. We've just gone there. Now. If you think about all of stage two, you're probably thinking about 30 something enactments that are really deep. And so now the body just knows what to do. It's like riding that bike. And so now that we have that, that's your security. Because now when life hurts us at that level of depth, we just do what we do. Right. So instead of talking about emotion, talking about relationships, philosophy, psyched, this becomes instinctual. So I think about military training and how you put soldiers under great pressure over and over and over. And that no longer feels like great pressure. Now it just feels like another day at work. And I just do what I'm trying to do. So it's not about trying, it's about training. And so that's what we're trying to do with that deep experiential work.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I love that, you know? Yeah, that's good. It's no longer about trying. It's about training. That's good because I almost would try. It's not really who you are. It's something you're trying to perform through.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And survive.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Well, we know it's the wrong part of the brain.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

If I'm having to consciously try, there's a really good chance that the cycle is going to win those moments. I think I got that from a movie, by the way. That's the great EFT therapist, Denzel Washington. But one of my favorites of his is a book called. Not a book, a movie called man on On Fire.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Where he's a bodyguard. He's taking care of this sweet little blonde girl and she's a competitive swimmer and she flinches when she comes off the blocks and that costs her to lose the race. And there's this scene where he's hitting bricks together, trying to desensitize her from the sound. And she talks about how I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm Trying Creasy. And he goes, there's no such thing as try. You're either trained or not. And I think about that as both clinicians and especially for our clients in this deeper stage two work.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's good. I forgot about. I watched that movie on the way to a training one time. That was good. And I like that because it's almost like. So now when I'm thinking about what you almost see now that I'm gonna stay with that image is like the bricks clack of the negative cycle. And you see them. They don't. Like. They don't. I won't say I want to be careful. It's like their body now knows how. Like, oh, hey, that thing happened right even right here. And I'm getting. It's like they start now just putting themselves out there in a new and different way. And they also, like. They start talking like, but I also see how this lands on you, and I see how this hurts you. And. But I'm still in this place. They just start. They talk about in a very vulnerable, clear, in the moment way. And you're like, hey, you guys, did you see what just happened? Like, you took a risk to speak up. What was For. What was coming up for you in this moment, and you invited your partner directly towards your heart. And even while you were doing that, though, you were so conscious and aware also of how it might land for them. You didn't even give this cycle a chance. It's like you got ahead of it before it got the chance. But not from a fearful place, but from this grounded, authentic. I can see me and I can see you, and I can see us. Wow. I think y' all got it. I think you got it. I don't know. That's one.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I love it. You know, and my couples. I'm just trying to think practically here. There's a. There's a mix of, like, deep, deep, deep, and then laughter before, before, and after. Because I'm doing a lot of platforming in stage two. So instead of just asking the next question, trying to go deep, I'm going to stop and I'm going to reintroduce our next set of moves. Right? That's a. That's a soothing from her trauma book. So I start. I start withdrawal reengagement the first couple sessions with that, I start pursuer softening the first few sessions of that. And there's really not a cycle in the room. That's one of the ways, you know, you're not in stage two. Is there's just not a cycle very often in the room. And so usually they kind of laugh and be like, all right, it's your turn to go down to the darkness. Yeah. Kind of giggle. But then, more importantly, then they go, do it.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You know, and it goes from funny to, you know, four minutes in. It's like I'm now turning, facing the demon, so to speak, facing the dragons. These painful memories. My deepest shame, my deepest fear that maybe there's something about me that's not so lovable. They just can go do it. You start to see that they have the muscles to go do this, and that gives me that confidence that. That the next time the cycle comes in or something sends them backwards, they'll just use that same muscle. So that's what we're looking for. And it's. It's really important that we have it on both sides.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Most of our couples, you can get one of them to do that kind of work in stage one and not the other. And people often think it might be the pursuer, but I don't find that to be true. I think it could. Just depends. But it's that stage two couples that both of them can go deep and both of them can get the blue hat on that caregiving, comforting response. And that's what we're looking for, is that the presence of that secure bond that if asked to and. Or in the. In a real life event, I can go deep and not get stuck in blame or avoidance. Right. And I can turn towards you and let you see that intimate experience of my vulnerability, and you can set aside what else might be happening for you and come forward, your presence a r E, as sue says, and comfort me. And then we can switch hats and do it on both sides. That's ultimately, practically speaking, what we're looking for in stage two.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I want to add one more wrinkle into that. I like that, Ryan. I hope she's okay with this, but I got to talk to Leanne this morning for another meeting, for something else we're going to do together. And she said this one phrase. I'm like, oh, Leanne, that is amazing. And I'm a paraphrase what she said for here for a moment. Not only are they able to one, I like what Ryan said. I don't want y' all to miss it. A good indicator is their caregiver is online. Their caregiving system is a whole. I want. I don't want to say. Yeah. The blocks to it are the other it just has this way of showing up, even almost in a way, their caregiver starts making space for potential pain without the partner. Almost even sometimes sending a signal for like, hey, I know that you know, I do know more about your story now. And I know as I say this, I want you to know, like, they almost are like their caregivers already. They're trying to speak and be there for the partner. Because, you know, like sometimes in stage one and I want to be careful, I say this sometimes I'll get from pursuers. It's like, well, why should I have to tell them this? They shouldn't. They just know. And there is this place now in stage two. I'm going with the withdrawal here. Like the withdrawals caregiving system almost does that. Like, hey, I am aware of this and I'm willing to take the risk to talk about it and try to be show up for you, even if I could get it wrong. But let me go back to the Leanne comments. Sorry, my brain's kind of going. But I want to catch this, though. It's. They also have the ability to be more present with themselves because Leanne said something is like, I. I must be willing to know me in order to be known by you. That was huge. Y' all need to catch that phrase. I must be willing to know me

[Dr. James Hawkins]

and know all the versions of me.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

There you go. Leanne would also say, and then she pushed it even. Then she even pushed it further. This is where it becomes very holistic wraparound. Then she said, and not only must I know me, but then you are also willing to help me when I struggle to know myself. But she doesn't skip over that first part. You do have to. Our clients do need to have an ability to know themselves. So at this stage, too, some of the things that would bring them pain, that would bring them shame, or cause them to not want to go inside themselves, you see them befriending those parts of themselves even more, and they bring it out. They talk about it because now they're not afraid of their inner world anymore, or I shouldn't say anymore. But it's definitely. It doesn't have the grips on them like it used to because their body says, I faced the thing that feels like it would annihilate me. And it didn't. It didn't. It's almost like the cycle lied to me because the cycle's like, you're going

[Dr. James Hawkins]

to die and I'm no longer alone.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

There. There you go. And that's the other one. That's the other resource. And even if I do go there and it gets overwhelming, it makes me think in the military, even if I do take this risk, I will not be left outside the wire. Somebody, my partner, will come for me. They will come to get me. So I think the other individual piece is so important to also notice.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Beautiful. Let's take a quick break.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

So just jumping in here, man, I am so excited to announce. Let me make sure I get this right. Yes. October 1st through the 3rd, guess what's happening, y'. All. Another round of the SV Focus Lab. Right now. The theme is Going into the Fire. That could change. But you say, what is the SV Focus Lab? The best way I can describe it is we as a team, we're always trying to push our leading edge. We're always trying to refine ourselves. And I think of the SV Focus Lab is. Is our chance to try on what's the. The kind of like the latest thing that we're working on that we're refining and we're taught, and we're inviting the room of therapists there. Can you come and join us and be a part of this process? So we talk about it in the kind of teaching format. Then we put you into role plays to role play it. Then we bring you back in and process after the role play, how could we tweak this even more? And sometimes we might even put you back into the same role play to help tweak it.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I get a lot of feedback that it's the best training people ever been to. And I think my favorite part of it is it really is a laboratory where we're learning together. So we're not just like teaching ideas that we think we have down. We're. We're trying to show you our leading edge in the things that we're studying, whether it's the sexual system and how to hold that. That in the Fire, which I think will be a feature and. And many other things. So we'd love to have you join us in person or online in Fville, Arkansas, October 1st through the 3rd, 2026.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And I want to add one more part to it. Here's the other thing that was great, the community bonding. We put you down in the middle of a beautiful place in downtown Fayetteville at this beautiful hotel with great restaurants, walking paths, farmers market. Man, we had so many different communities that form relationships at the Focus Lab. So we are trying to be at the heart of what EFT is. We're trying to do very focused learning in a community of connection. We'd love to have you there once again. You can go on successandvulnerability.com to find out more and get some of your comrades from your community to join in. Love to see you there. All right, Ryan. So back in. Oh, that's right. Where were we on that last? I got so excited about the Focus

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Lab announced while you were quoting Leanne.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Oh yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You got to know yourself to have someone else know you. So that's a great reference to that intrapsychic work. And I think that's the part that gets a little tricky, you know, because again, what looks deep for one person may not for another. You know, you were just in a talk about neurodivergence and. And so forth. And so we're not trying to compare one one case to the next. And yet I definitely don't want to leave it short.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's good.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

I want to go as deep as that person possibly can in stage two. And it is. It is connecting with self so that we can help the caregiver be a R E. And it's so tempting to want to teach stage one couples to do that or even go for it in stage one. That might be the biggest mistake that I see. Or one of them. And they can't do it. You know, we got to be present where they are. But when it is open, we don't want to hesitate also.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's right.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

We don't want to treat people like they're fragile. We want to go get it. And so as deep as we possibly can to get them to connect with self. In particular those versions of self, that six year old little boy in the basement where life is falling apart, that, that, you know, nine year old little girl, gender, gender, whatever. Where. Where life has really hurt them and they learned to get rid of their hopes and their needs. Right. That's that we're trying to go get those moments, even open a scene and invite all three of us into the scene and do series of enactments. That kind of work is so raw and vulnerable. Most people never have that discussion and certainly most people never had that discussion with anyone else. So this is a deeply intimate, almost sexual experience. Obviously not being literal there. That happens in our office. That is truly transformative. And that's why EFT has the relapse rates that it does.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Exactly.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Is because these. It's hard to have that level of conversation and not be moved and changed. Transformative.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And I think it. And then the other byproducts I think is it produces and Maybe you said this right, but it produces a sense of confidence now because it's almost like they're like, but I don't, like I remember one client, I don't know if I'll in stage one, but I don't know if I'll have what it takes to be there. Stage two is you did it. We didn't talk about it. You didn't read a book about it. You didn't watch a video about it. We didn't just go to a conference about it. Right here, your partner went deep down into the basement and look at what you did. You rappelled down the walls, you went into that place, you grabbed hold of them. And not only, I wouldn't say you lifted them out. You each, you both were able to come out of that place. The cycle did not get the best of you, but that's what the cycle made you feel in stage one. So I also see that sense of they start to feel like, we can do this. Yes, we, I can do this, we can do this.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And we have the installation of that positive cycle. It's done experientially. So I get that question a lot is when we, when we start working with positives, well, you can work with it in small ways along the way, but really what we want to do is to produce it organically. And so now that we have that withdraw re engaging, it really helps that pursuer soften and stay present as opposed to over focusing on other to help them change. They can set that aside and really let their heart come forward. And as that pursuer comes forward in a softer way, it really helps that withdraw stay engaged so that withdraw doesn't have to go perform or change the subject or divert or go away. And then so the more that withdraw engages, the more that pursuer softens, the more that pursuer softens, the more that withdraw engages. And now this becomes this new way of being in the world that reshapes people's sense of self. Right? I am lovable because the most important person in the world continues to choose me. So it's a people making sort of thing. And this new positive cycle becomes this resource that we can use when life hurts so that not if, but when life throws really hard things our way, I experientially feel that my partner has my back and we can use this positive cycle knowing that my partner, if I'm a withdrawer, my partner will come to come be with me as opposed to come fix me. And if I'm a pursuer, I know that my withdrawer is not going to leave, that they'll step into the fire with me, and that no matter what happens, we're going to do it together.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Right?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And that's secure bonds.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Right? I like those two words you just said. And I just wanted to go because I was like, man, I want to talk about this other thing I learned on the road. And I want to. What Ryan just said was with me, not just fix me, me. That's a big deal. You all. Here's what I wanted to bring the context. It's. So this is something people push me on a little bit about my validation, where I could probably grow in it. I don't want to just validate. Look at what you did in the sense of the outcome in State two. I think there's a part where we should validate. Look at how you stayed with your partner. And what I'm validating is your ability to hold your effort, which is kind of going with some of the research on growth mindset. You know, if we just keep validating people only for outcome, then if they can't get the outcome, then what? Especially eft, is like, we were saying, like, look at how you stayed there for 30 minutes, I walked around in the basement of your pain. And look at how you stayed with you, but also with other partner. Look at. For 30 minutes, we walked around in the basement of your partner's pain. And you didn't try and fix them. You didn't try and talk them out of it. You just hung in there with them. You stayed curious. I love that you are able to stay in that place. Look at you. You're like a. You're like a person. Like, now you can hold your. Like, this is. Like, this is Ryan, like, Navy seal. Like, look at you. You went down there, you had your feet all tied up, you had the tank on, and you were able to hang in there. You didn't panic, and you stayed with it. You helped your partner get their equipment off of them. And look at y'.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

All.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Y' all both came back up to the surface. I so appreciate the effort I just saw with both of you to stay in that really painful, scary place. Wow.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And now look what you've shifted. I feel different as a swimmer. I feel different in who you are as a swimmer. But also, water is no longer scary, Right? And so I have a friend whose father is a Navy seal, and she. She tells stories. Carrie. She tells stories. When she would go to a swimming pool as a little girl, he would jump in the deep end and stay down there and sit on the bottom of the pool for like four minutes. It'd freak them all out. And he'd come up laughing. You see, if you put me under that water for four minutes, I'm freaking out. I'm not going for 40 seconds. Right. But it's different. It's, it's a nervous system shift for him. His body has been so much experience in super scary places in water that water is no longer scary. Right. And also his view of self as a swimmer is, is it's shape, it's, it's change, it's remodeled, it's restructured. So that's, that's our theme here. And so, and this is important because our clients live in water, right? They live in stress, they live in lack of safety. As much as we want to talk about being advocates, the fact is the world's never going to be a just place. We have to be adaptive and we have to not leave each other alone in the, in, in all the forms of injustice. Whether it's something big, like a cultural inequality or something small, like, you know, someone was really awful to me in traffic like that. That's. These are these moments where, that's where we're sending our clients into. So we, that's why, that's why EFT isn't just about making safety. EFT is about going towards their risks and having corrective experience in the pain because that's where they're going to live.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

I love that like that. I love the emphasis on. So that's also another marker is you see resilience now.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yes.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Not just getting out because we. I don't want to be careful. It's not only about teaching our clients to get out or avoid. Of course we should know that as experiential or attachment based therapists. But it's like, look at your resilience hands. You stay. Even when it got uncomfortable, you didn't give up on you. You stayed there. You tried to find your words. Look at that. And even when, or even when you're partnering, you weren't sure where they were, you weren't sure where it was gonna go, but you were resilient. You stayed in that discomfort. It wasn't just about escaping. It wasn't just about getting to the good moment. You were willing to like in a way. I remember when I was deployed, I was embraced with the rangers. And the rangers, they always had this phrase, this is a way of kind of like, they're just like, embrace the suck. Yeah, it sucks. We don't have the right equipment. So what? Embrace the suck. They. They put. They dropped us in the wrong zone. Embrace the suck. It is super hot out here, and the AC is broken. Embrace the suck. And. But part of it is we're embracing it together. And that's a part of what helps those Rangers do things that most people don't want to do, is we are all embracing it together, and that makes it in some ways, more bearable.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. Having a battle buddy is different than having a buddy. That's what they call them.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's a good one to use for our end of stage, too. It's like, I got a battle buddy now.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Right.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

They will face the cycle with me.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

That's right. Navy calls it swim buddies, army calls it a battle. But I literally use that term if you don't know military. So you. You know, one is none.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

In Air Force, we call it your wingman.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

There you go. There you go.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Where's your wingman?

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. So one is none. That's a phrase that in the SEAL community. And if you're from. If you're from outside the U.S. we're talking about U.S. military stuff here. Sorry, but I hope it makes sense. But one is none. So if I'm by myself, I'm not even here. Right. It's. It's this us. And having a battle buddy is a very different thing than just having a friend. And in stage one, we're trying to help transform that negative cycle from an enemy to a friend. In stage two, we're experientially creating battle buddies. You cannot become a battle buddy outside of fire.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Nope.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

You have to go towards darkness. You have to go towards pain. We have to. My nervous system has to experience you showing up in that place. Which is why it's so crucial in stage two that we're not just using stage two terms. Like it's got to be embodied for. For stage two to work.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

That's another good principle. I think that's a great one, Ryan. Their story is now embodied. That's a big one. I know you talk about disembodied stories, but that is a big one. I want to give. That's even goes culturally too, because I think about some minority clients or people who suffered oppression or margin. Whatever you want to use there. But now they have more of a. It's instead of an externalized story where society owns the story about me and they're forming the store of me, and now I'm fighting their story. They have an embodied story of self now. And like, I'VE embodied my pain. I've talked about my disappointments and these things. I've done this, I've done that. And not only have I, I've also been able to invite my partner or partners to be there with me in that place. So I like going back to yours. At the end of stage two, they have more access to them. They've done work with different versions of themselves to then really, truly find themselves. And. And now they also have their, you know, still using that term, but they have their battle buddy who can face the cycle with them. That's good, man. This is good. I think if we're just talking about this, I think it's. Sometimes we could just take it for granted. I just appreciate taking this time to even help me put. Once again, it did really push my edge to get even more clear and fine words, because it is at the end of stage two, I don't want to just let that go so lightly. That's another I want to say here. We've got to learn how to mark these moments for our clients. And people say, James, why do you go after they. You've done that, why do you go back over it so much? Yeah, I'm installing it so they can find their way back there again.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

And, and the, the. The present. Simplicity is so key, which is another reason why a year. A year ago in stage one with this couple, I don't want to teach too many concepts. It's not what works.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

They're drowning.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

They're drowning anyway. But even looking back, now that we're at this safe, secure bond, it's still not what works. Someone isn't your battle buddy because they're technically superior. It's their presence. It's that you know they're coming. When it hits the fan, you're not going to be alone. Right. And so couples often say that to me, as stage two is ending, they'll look at me and go, I can't believe this is all it took. You know, it's a. It's a message we don't get to the general population very often is most people work way too hard at their relationships. Actually. Yes, there's a place for intentionality and working hard at your relationship and priorities. That usually sounds like, you know, something a schoolteacher would say. So, you know, I only want to say it to my couples, but most people are. Have 50 ideas and they're working too hard at them. Yeah. And when they finally get it, they're like, all I had to say was, I don't know what to say right now, but I'm here. I got your back. You're not going to be alone anymore. Boom. That's it, y'.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

All. That is another. It seems so simple, but that is profound. At the end of state, especially, I'll go with. With jars for a moment. And that's even hits my personal story. Like, wait, I don't have to figure. Like, I trust that my presence is powerful enough, and I'll tell y', all, if it wants to help people. Say, James, how did you learn? I had to learn that even as a therapist is. I didn't have to outsmart my clients. I didn't have to, in a sense, outsmart the cycle. Just me being, like, completely a human that's empathically attuned and present. It creates enough space for them to. To do brave things. So I love that with withdrawals, when they're like, man, I wish I would have. That's all I have to do is just be here for you, You. And now I'm right here. You need. You need me to do this again tomorrow? I'll be right here.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah. And it is usually withdrawers who are looking at me and going, man, that's all I had to do, really. Why didn't you just tell me that earlier like I did? You couldn't hear it, right? You don't do any good to tell them that. But they're like, that's all I had to do. But pursuers the same way in just a different way, because their. Their life has taught them, you better push, and you cannot take the pressure down or else. And they get it, and they're like, oh, man, I don't have to keep pushing, right? It's like. It's. It's almost confusing, but a beautiful, beautiful realization.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

But then that's how the cycle lied to them. You got to do all these things. You got to learn all these tricks to read the next. And the books are great, but then it's like, they're like, really? And that's the part I keep. I said, you know what, y'? All? I learned something different about Sue.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Sue built a model from couples, not just four couples. And what I mean by that is she's not saying, like, oh, come learn this, and this is how you should do relationships. Like this, which is making it complicated. She just really helped delineate the essential element process and helped us, as therapists, set the table so couples could have that beautiful, seductively simple moment.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Yep, Exactly.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

Yeah.

[Dr. James Hawkins]

Y'. All secure bonds are not complicated. They're hard because they require a lot of slowing down when your body wants to speed up and they require a lot of vulnerable presence. But they're not complicated. You show up, you win. EFT is all about responsiveness.

[Dr. Ryan Reyna]

And on that note, y', all, thank you so much once again just for listening and being part of this and pushing the leading edge with us. Even we had to take time off because we were on the road. We really appreciate you so much. Thank you.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Reyna Professional Training and On his website ryanrenatraining.com you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website Doc hawklpc.com.