A (2:15)

That's good. You know, it makes me think in our. The. The opening to our show where Nicola says EFT is a dynamic model, which that's true, but couples therapy and relationship work or helping people heal, even in eit is a very dynamic part, and it does. It humbles us all. So I'm thankful for those people who fight through even their tears. Their tears are just saying that we really want to get this right. That does, and that's a beautiful thing. We need more people that can shed tears over getting something right.

C (2:40)

We'd have a better world if we did more of that and less of the fighting over our differences.

A (2:46)

That's good, man. Well, but here we go. Today's topic.

C (2:51)

Speaking of fighting over differences.

A (2:54)

I thought you set that up on perfect. Ryan, I thought you was on fire today, man. So, man, just want to give a shout out to. It was actually a participant at Dallas who asked a very profound question that made me think about this. And then as Ryan and I talked about it, it expands in so many ways, but I didn't ask her permission, so I won't give any identifying information. But great question about, like, EFT and different cultural settings. But, like, particularly, what if you have a couple who, hey, this is what we want, but this is what they want. So you feel like you're being pitted into a place where you gotta choose who's right, who's wrong. I remember I did a case when I was in training with George as my mentor, and the couple automatically wanted to come in and talk about their differences over jealousy and boundaries with people of the opposite gender or whatever kind of thing. But what they wanted me to solve was whose vision is right? And even one of the partners, she explicitly said that that's where we get stuck at, is determining whose vision is right. And I'm like, well, that sounds no fun, because I don't want to make that determination. And that's a scary thing for therapists. It scared my body that day. I'm like, well, how do I choose? How do I even know who's right? And then if I take a side, then what happens to the other person kind of thing. So that's what we're going to be talking about. What scares therapists when we get pulled into these triangles of trying to decide who's right or what side to take here?

C (4:17)

Yeah, yeah. So the first. My first thought is, I want to put my professor hat back on and define triangulation.

A (4:23)

There we go.

C (4:24)

You know, because triangulation is not necessarily an EFT concept. I think it come, if my knowledge is accurate, I think it came from Bohenian family systems.

A (4:34)

That's why I remember it.

C (4:35)

Generational. Yeah. And it's just where two people are involved in some situation or conflict, and the Anxiety increases to the point where one of them becomes so anxious that they have to reach out for stabilization. Right. And what they do is they engage a third party to lower their anxiety. And so the third party stabilizes the conflict, which sounds good on the surface, but the reality is most conflict is already too stable. Right. So the stabilization that comes from the third party actually starts to cement the distance between the two people. Right. So that's triangulation. Maybe that's obvious, I don't know. But that's kind of what we're talking about today. And that's, that first point of tension is that that is a really kind of a trap situation because, you know, it's easy to do some old school therapist, you know, comment like, I don't know, what do you think? Right. Or to do some kind of evasive answer and then it sounds like a cop out, people get mad at you for that. But on the other hand, if you were to like throw out an opinion, first of all, it's just an opinion. And that's, you know, most of these triangulation attempts aren't on factual matters, they're on opinions. And if you throw out an opinion now you've, now you've entered the triangle. So you've, you've violated someone's alliance and so forth. And, and so at the same time, you know, we in eft, we start with, you know, a reflection of validation that like that's how we start almost every response. And so, you know, that's important here, but it's also important to balance that. And just remembering that the person who triangles you is the, is the most anxious one in the room. So they're fearful, right. And so, but then if I give them what they want and stabilize them, I've hurt their relationship. If I don't give them what they want, maybe I've kind of stepped on their toes some. So it's a trap.

A (6:36)

Exactly. Thank you for calling that out, making the trap so explicit. So what do we do to, in a sense still help this couple? And not because our focus is not so much about avoiding the trap, but the tr. Even the solution is not going to really fix what's brought them in in a way. And also thinking here, Ryan, you made me think about this, helps me remind me of some of Gottman's research that most of the ongoing conflict that happens between a couple, 69% of it is actually unresolvable. A lot of it is rooted in personality or perspective differences in the couple, 69%. And so what we've got to be able to navigate those. Kind of like how even Gottman focuses on is we've got got to change the process about how you connect or disconnect in a way around that 69% of information. And we always talk about this in our training, avoiding that solution trap, which is what they're trying to get you in. Help my partner buy into my solution, which, by the way, one of my clients taught me and she even said it. And even if I get my client to my. Not my client, if I get my partner to buy into this, I'm still afraid that they'll resent me for it. So I'm stuck. I can't get you to buy into my solution. But even if I were successful at that, will it just lead you to resenting me and then the very thing I was trying to protect ends up being endangered anyway? Yeah. So you feel like we have a good enough foundational understanding maybe of this process we're talking about, Ryan?

C (8:03)

I mean, it's a lot easier to respond, to define the problem than the solution. Right.

A (8:07)

Got that right.

C (8:08)

Parallel process going here.

A (8:09)

Okay. So as we always like to do, what we're going to do now is we kind of laid the groundwork. We'll take a break here and then after the break, we're going to come back and then this is. We're going to get practical. I'll tell you about how I told the person to address these kind of triangulation issues.

C (8:21)

Looking forward to hearing that.

A (8:23)

All right. Do you like the content that you're hearing on this podcast? Well, we invite you to join us on successand vulnerability.com along with George Fowler and other EFT therapists and supervisors, where you get to get more thorough insight into these concepts and. And actually get to see it done. Once again, join us on success and vulnerability.com and as always, just to tag along with that, we always want to shout out the International center for Excellence in emotionally focused therapy. That is ISEF.com which has a lot of resources on there, a lot of trainings that tell you about trainings happening literally around the world. Several great ones coming up in Europe, some on like ADHD and neurodiversity. I mean, just some good stuff going on. They also have the latest research and articles and newsletters. And there's even the ISEF listserv where you can communicate with EFT therapists from around the world. You can get discounts on ISEF trainings and different events. So once again, we always want to shout out to ISEF.com, the International center for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy. All right, Ray. So this is kind of my approach, and I definitely. This is almost like I want to consult with my colleague and friend here. So when the person asked me the question, kind of like, what do you do? And she just gave me kind of like a triangulated scenario. And so for me, the first answer you've got to do is slow the process down. At least this is for James. I know I'm in danger when I start trying to give my clients fast answers. So I first try and slow myself down to think about what am I being invited into to answer and the way I enter into this dynamic, how is it going to impact the process? So that's just one me taking account of, like, what's happening? Because what I'm looking for is, like, am I trying to hurry up out of anxiousness, to hurry up and calm things down? Because that's not probably the right approach for me personally, but nor do I want to, like, lean out and be completely ambivalent and almost still face the clients. Like, I'm not truly attuned to the energy that's happening in the room. So first is slow down. Then I like to acknowledge the attachment reasons for them even kind of presenting this question or trying to pull me into the triangle, because what I'm seeing in the context, they would not be trying to pull me into the triangle if it didn't serve a function. Just as Ryan just said, if there's anxiety in the room and they're lost, like, my partner's not seeing my good reasons. I think I see my good reasons. Can anyone else see it? So of course they would try and pull somebody else in. Can you see this? My partner's getting defensive or dismissive. Can you see it with me? And so it's okay when they present those questions, to be able to just acknowledge, like, hey, I really appreciate the energy that's even coming up in you now that even moves you to ask me this question about who's right, who's wrong, what do I see? I really appreciate that you need some kind of, like, someone to see. Can anyone see this? Am I crazy? Am I making this up? You know, I'm on the right track. Genuinely acknowledge the good attachment reasons and validate it. Like, I. It makes so much sense to try and figure this out, to try and come up with a solution to try and get your part to at least get on the same page here, because it definitely doesn't feel good trying to Be on two different pages and fighting for what feels like two different directions. That just feels like disconnection to me. So I really appreciate you trying to find a way to solve this. And then the next thing, though, is big. Clarify, clarify. What are the terms we're even talking about? Like, for the couple I was with, with George, they were trying to clarify things around how to handle jealousy. Like, first of all, what do you mean by jealousy? Like, what's the problem you're trying to fix? And when I say problem, like, what is it that's happening in this relationship that makes this distressing for you, that makes you say, I've got to fix this, I've got to resolve it. What's the fear? Here's a big one in eft, I think. Or attachment. What is the fear or pain that you're trying to address? Because many times they're so focused on the solution that we're not even clear about the fear or the pain that they're trying to address. I think. And you tell me what you think about this, Ryan, if we leave the pain and the fear vague and unexplored, we're just going to be chasing our tails here. Because every solution won't really be directed towards bringing comfort to where it really needs to be if we leave the pain and the fear vague. So that's what you need to clarify. One, clarify terms and find the attachment meaning or significance that they're trying to answer. And then two, this is one. You've. I say two. This way more than less than. It's moved on past two, but a big one Ryan and I used to do, if y' all remember, we saw about the Million Dollar Question. I know in a way we've moved on, but it sticks out here for me. So, like, even when it's like some.

C (13:12)

They call it the fray now, right?

A (13:14)

The fray. Now, there you go, Ryan. What I want to find out is, is when y' all try to talk about jealousy or money or gender roles in the home or whatever, when you try to talk about this, what happens to. In your relationship? Like, I literally want to see if you can. Like, how do you bring it up? When you bring it up, how does your partner respond? When your partner responds like that, then what you do. Because what I've got to see is, is what keeps the solutions you've already tried, what keeps them from working? How does this, when you talk about this, how does it make you two get even further apart versus bringing you closer together? So those are kind of my go to Practical ways of how I broke that down for the person. And I'm sure there's more I could go into now.

C (14:00)

That's great. I don't really have a ton to add. I think that's right on. You know, the first thing that comes to mind for me is just like, this is a tangent, right when this has happened, we've left the map, we've left the interstate, you know, in Arkansas. I'm out in a bean field or a cow pasture or something like, hey, wait, what are we doing out here? You know, we were going somewhere with this. So this is a tangent. This is a, this is a distraction move. And so we want to get it back to focus. I think the topic is, how do you do that? And that's what's challenging is, you know, because EFT isn't a direct, top down, call you out kind of model. We do push the edge, but we're going to do that with you instead of against you. So. But it is a tangent. This is a stopover when we could be making progress. So honestly, part of me wants to get back on focus as soon as we can. How do we do that? And I think responding to the emotional tone in the room is a good move. You know, I so appreciate what you're trying to do right now. You know, if we could somehow figure out how to get on the same page here, we could make progress. Is that kind of what you're saying? And for me, I'll just sometimes be direct and say, look, I don't have an answer that's going to satisfy you right now. I'm going to tell you that right now. But I do want to be curious because I'm sure there's a good reason that you're fighting for this, because we're on different pages here. And when. And when we're on different pages, what it probably says to you is we're not going to be close. So what sucks about this is I think what you're trying to do is to get on the same get close with your partner again. But we have this topic that's sort of driving us apart. Is that right, Ryan?

A (15:43)

That was. I like that one. I want to go back to the very first thing you said. I want to challenge the listeners right now. I want you to picture that was the honest moment and transparent and vulnerable moment. I think for Ryan to say, I don't have an answer that probably will satisfy either one of you. Yeah, I could see some therapist right now. Least this was a thought that went through My head. But aren't they going to be mad at me? Isn't that what I'm supposed to do around you? Are they going to fire me? So. But that's. I appreciate your willingness to come out and be honest with them. I don't think I have an answer that's going to satisfy either one of you right now. And then you redirect it back towards the attachment frame of. You reframed it in a way.

C (16:22)

Yeah. You know, I think sometimes you can blame the cycle. You know, this topic X that's coming up, I can see that we're in the cycle right now. And I'm trying to find a way to make sense of the good reasons you have to work through this without getting caught in the same cycle that you do or, you know, in some cases. I think it depends on what we're talking about sometimes. But I think you can model what secure behavior would do. Right, Right. Because when two people are secure and we have a difference, what happens naturally? Well, there's a flexibility. We can look at the one side and we can look at the other side. And so you could actually reflect both positions in some content areas. Some content areas is not so much.

A (17:05)

And thank you for that caveat, Ryan. Like as we say this, Ryan and R are being general weather process right now. But we're not saying like this answer will fit because I'm sure somebody like. But what about. Great, I'm glad you found that nuance. Now how would you change this to fit that?

C (17:19)

Right. Yeah, but I like your answer really is. My answer too is like, how do we get this back to fray? Because clearly this is clearly the. Clearly if this is happening, the repair attempt has failed and there's an affect assembly, a tempo if you, if you want to use that about this. Right. And that's if that if they're putting this kind of energy out this, they're saying, this is where I need you. This is where we go into chaos as opposed to organization. So.

A (17:48)

Wow, thank you, Ryan. That's good. So if I'm going to summarize kind of again, it's, you got to slow the process down, the immediate process happening in the room. So that way you can put yourself and your nervous system in the most attuned place you possibly can. And I would take this one from Ryan too. And it's good, like if your clients do that in the moment in your office, slow down because you probably just had a live trigger or something that happened to make them go to that behavior to pull you In. And that's a classic sue move. So hold on, hold on. I think I just noticed something that happened here as we were talking about this, and it kind of hit your body. It's like you got my attention saying, james, James, this is what I'm fighting for. Can you see this? Help my part. Help me help my partner see this. Help me. I'm having my Jerry Maguire moment right now, if anybody remembers that movie. Right. But anyway, help me help my partner see it. So slow down the process. And I like what you said, Ryan. And you've got to, though, is you've got to acknowledge the emotional energy behind the pull for triangulation. Meet the function of the signal to help calm them down, settle them down. And then I agree with Ryan's answer. Be honest, though. Don't try and lie to them. Don't pretend like you secretly have, like, a draw for in your back pocket and you're just waiting to uno out. Right. But let them know, like, hey, I don't think I have an answer that will. Will do. Really do you justice here.

C (19:12)

Yeah.

A (19:12)

Or definitely not your relationship. So can I slow down and then reframe it? And like, I like Tyrann. Get them back on the highway of attachment, because that's the only way we'll make it to our destination. Yeah, I like that.

C (19:23)

Yeah. I mean, I think if I run it, if I run a T shirt shop and someone comes in and orders a Jeep, I'm not going to try to try to start cutting up a box to make a Jeep. We don't sell Jeeps here. We're a T shirt shop. You know what I mean?

A (19:37)

Yeah.

C (19:38)

So I think. I think just being honest is not a bad policy. But as you were saying that it was kind of cueing my thought, you know, back to that, how we started this whole episode, you know, when triangulation happened, if. When triangulation happens, if we go back to the base of the model, the most anxious person in the room has exceeded their tolerance, and that's why the triangulation attempt is happening. And so I think if you can. If we can get past the. The trapped feeling or maybe even being annoyed with the client and let that build compassion for us, you know, that, hey, this is really hard right now, then. Then I think that gives us a chance to catch some of that emotional energy without getting lost in the content, you know, because. And it. You could even. You could even track an attachment meaning with that. Right. Because when your partner, the most important person in the world, has a completely different perspective on you that sends what message about who you are in their world?

A (20:36)

I'm on the outside. I'm wrong.

C (20:38)

Exactly, Exactly. And so that. That's awful. That's the opposite of what you're coming here for. And I so appreciate this about you. So just lets you work with them to be with their experience than. Than just getting stuck in the trap. Which is how it feels, though, does for me, you know, really early on.

A (20:57)

So.

C (20:57)

Yep.

A (20:58)

Well, y', all, thank you so much. And once again, I know Ryan and I, we really do mean it when we say thank you and we. But I think for, like, I was just thinking Ryan, you know, was in Dallas and just had so many people come up and say, hey, I just want to let you know I'm a grad student and your podcast has been helping me understand couples therapy. Or, you know, I was almost done with this of seeing couples, but your podcast, it just feels I listen to you on my walk, on my hike, on my drive, and it feels like you're going in a session with me. I want you to know me and Ryan take that pretty serious. Which is even why we upgraded our equipment to have better sound quality, because we figure, like, you're already given so much of your life and energy, we want to help, you know, really come alongside you and support you.

C (21:40)

So, yep, that means a lot. I mean, if that's true, then. Then we're successful. If there's people who are willing to continue to take some couples, even if it's just one or two, then that. That meets the mission of what we're trying to do. So thank you for what you're doing.

A (21:55)

All right, y' all take it easy.

B (21:58)

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at Push the Leading Edge and you can follow us on our Facebook page at Push the Leading Edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional Training and on his website, ryanrenatraining.com. you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc hawklpc. You can also check out his website, Doc Hawk LC lpc.com.