99. What Scares Therapists: Caution with Blocks: Being Overly Controlling & Shutting Clients Down or Missing Them

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy
Hosts: Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rana
Episode: 99. What Scares Therapists: Caution with Blocks: Being Overly Controlling & Shutting Clients Down or Missing Them
Date: October 21, 2024

This episode explores therapists’ fears about becoming overly controlling when working with client “blocks” (or, as reframed, “anchors”) in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT). The hosts, Dr. Hawkins and Dr. Rana, dive into the balance required to address blocks—how to maintain focus and therapeutic progress without shutting clients down or missing underlying vulnerability. The discussion is both practical and philosophical, providing stories, examples, and conceptual reframes to help therapists reflect on their own styles and grow past their fears.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Dilemma: Activity vs. Attunement

• What Scares Therapists?
  • The episode is prompted by a conversation with colleague Olivia “OJ” Jones, who voices concern about overly shutting down clients when trying to manage blocks (03:00).
  • This reveals a therapist’s fear of inadvertently harming the alliance or missing key client experiences by being too controlling.

Reframing “Blocks” as “Anchors”

• The hosts refer to George Faller’s teaching—describing blocks not as pathology, but as “anchors” representing a client's hesitation or mistrust to move toward vulnerability (05:09).
  • Dr. Hawkins:

    “The client might say, ‘I’m not sure if I want to proceed,’ and they drop an anchor … the anchor is their mistrust saying, ‘I’m not sure if I’m comfortable going further.’” (06:07)

  • The therapist’s job is to recognize when an anchor has been dropped, get curious about its function, and help the client safely “pull up the anchor.”

Therapy is Real, Serious Work

• Dr. Rana shares a personal story of loss involving a real anchor, emphasizing the seriousness and risks involved in these moments, both for clients and relationships (07:35).
  • Dr. Rana:

    “These are real people. We’re trying to do our part to make a space to potentially save, salvage a relationship. And so really, how we manage these anchor moments … goes a long way.” (08:13)

The Core Challenge: How Much Control?

• Focus is Key, But…

  • Effective EFT requires taking control at key moments—actively redirecting, summarizing, or interrupting the process when it helps (10:14).
  • But there’s always a risk. Too much control can:
    • Shut down client emotion/vulnerability.
    • Harm the therapeutic alliance.
    • Make therapy feel done to the client, not with them.

• The Flexible Middle:

  • Therapy “block style” needs to be proportional:
    • Small blocks might warrant a light touch or no intervention.
    • Medium blocks might need more engagement.
    • Big blocks can require significant, focused interventions—“CPR and parts work” (13:00).
  • Dr. Hawkins:

    “We’re not doing CPR and terror work with every single block every session.” (13:02)

Therapist Anxiety vs. Attunement

• Therapists must discern whether a controlling urge comes from their own anxiety or from genuine attunement to the client’s needs (14:25).
  • Dr. Rana:

    “Is that my anxiety? Or is that really an attuned moment to what’s happening in front of me? Important questions.” (14:25)

Case Examples: When to Intervene

• Family Session Example (16:45):

  • Dr. Hawkins shares a case where catching a subtle dismissive moment in a client (“It’s not really that big...it’s not that important though”) led to a transformative session. Timing and focus opened vulnerability and connection for the family.
    • Dr. Hawkins:

      “James, do not let this moment go.” (16:40)

    • The risk paid off—choosing to focus at the right moment enabled real healing.

• Admitting Mistakes:

  • Sometimes trying to “catch” every block backfires, and therapists must make amends for pushing too hard.

Therapist Style and Working with Blocks

• Different Therapists, Different Alliance Strengths:

  • Some excel at warmth and presence (Becca Jorgensen, Leanne Campbell); others achieve alliance through visible determination or intensity (Ryan Rana).
  • All styles have a “shadow side”—gentle therapists must assert themselves, forceful therapists must soften strategically (19:17).

• Session Structure/Habits:

  • Dr. Rana describes using focused cycle summaries to begin sessions and then intentionally making space for clients to share before stepping in with strong interventions—balancing structure and openness for optimal progress (19:29–24:00).

The Importance of Flexibility

• Secure vs. Insecure Attachment:

  • Flexible, adaptive responding is a marker of a secure therapist. When therapists are rigid (over-focused or under-focused), it reflects their own insecurity.
  • Dr. Hawkins quoting Dr. Rana:

    “What’s the first thing you lose when you’re in an insecure attachment? … The ability to be flexible.” (25:01)

• Therapist Growth:

  • Therapists must model flexibility themselves, toggling between business (focus/intervention) and humanity (space, patience), just as they hope clients will grow (26:21).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Reframing blocks:

  • “We really use [blocks] to talk about...when we’re on the path to working with someone’s vulnerability and their body just sends off a little bit of cue of a mistrust...”
    — Dr. Hawkins (05:09)

• The risk of missing important moments:

  • “If you just make a quick validation, or a quick pass, or even just try to have empathy towards [a big block], it’s just going to keep sitting there forever...it’s going to continue to do harm.”
    — Dr. Rana (13:06)

• Introspection on making mistakes:

  • “I catch myself doing this sometimes and it’s like I didn’t need that much control. Is that my anxiety? Or is that really an attuned moment to what’s happening in front of me?”
    — Dr. Rana (14:25)

• How personal styles inform therapy:

  • “You’re not the easiest person to open up to initially, but what really made me trust you is how hard you worked. There was an intensity in working with you...”
    — Dr. Rana, quoting feedback from past clients (19:30)

• Alliance and flexibility:

  • “While we’re trying to help teach and model kind of secure attachment, we also gotta model it ourselves. And that means we, as therapists, have to be able to be flexible.”
    — Dr. Hawkins (25:01)

• Practicing vulnerability with peers:

  • “The worst thing that can happen to you as a therapist is that you begin to hold your own fears out of fear of imposter syndrome or that other people don’t go through it. Our bodies need permission to kind of get these fears out so we can be our most open, kind of available self.”
    — Dr. Hawkins (29:03)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:00 — Olivia "OJ" Jones reframes fear of shutting clients down
• 05:09 — George Faller’s “anchor” metaphor for blocks
• 07:35 — Real-world story about the consequences and seriousness of “anchor moments”
• 10:14 — The risks of not taking control versus being too controlling
• 13:00 — Tangible framework: varying interventions based on the size of the block
• 14:25 — Therapist’s anxiety versus genuine need to intervene
• 16:45 — Dr. Hawkins’ pivotal family therapy example
• 19:29 — Alliance styles and session structure—balancing focus and space
• 25:01 — Flexibility as a marker of secure therapist functioning
• 29:03 — The importance of peer support and sharing therapist fears

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Effective EFT requires “walking the line” between necessary control and attuned flexibility.
• Handling blocks well is a signature of competence, but therapists must always weigh the risk of being too forceful versus too passive.
• Noticing therapist anxiety, reflecting on one’s own tendencies, and being willing to make repairs are all essential.
• Therapists are encouraged to process and share their fears with peers, not hide them.
• Modeling secure, flexible responses is as important for therapists as it is as an intervention with clients.

“There’s good reasons to be scared, and yet you’re not alone in the fear. We got places we can talk about this. We got places we can make space for this. And we’re with you.”
— Dr. Rana (28:42)

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Transcript

[A]

How active can you be as a therapist? How many times can you redirect or interrupt? And what are the potential dangers of doing that? What scares therapists? Back in the series, welcome to the.

[B]

Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy with your hosts, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. EFT is a dynamic model that humbles even the most seasoned therapist. Together, we want to come alongside you as you continually push the leading edge of your understanding and application of this wonderful model developed by Dr. Sue Johnson.

[C]

Oh, I'm getting mixed up, Ryan. It's like I'm pumping into the microphone.

[A]

And everything that's important.

[C]

Woo. Oh, man, y', all, it's good to be back. Ryan, it's good to see you again, man. Thanks. You know, I know we've been out and traveling on different things, family, professional, but good to see you back. Yeah, it's good seeing you all. It's good when Ryan and I get to go out. We always. I know our hearts are touched and we come back and share stories about you all and how you're taking in the material on this podcast. Also, over on success and vulnerability, and it touches my heart. And here's. You know, we always say thank you. I'm thankful that there are so many therapists that are really committed to being good at their craft. I really have a lot of appreciation for that, you know, that not only do they show up to EFT trainings, which I always think, like, that's amazing because it's not the cheapest thing in the world, it's not the most expensive, but it's not the cheapest. And it's just a time and energy commitment. And then they're also listening to podcasts on, you know, I. I get the always, I listen to you at the gym while I'm walking in my neighborhood, as I'm commuting, as I'm walking into session. And so just want to say thank you for your commitment. Not just one thank you for listening to our podcast, but thank you for caring so much about your clients that you're committed to getting better at your craft.

[A]

Yeah. And I would say maybe a different angle of thank you than I normally do. I just want to thank you for who you are in the world, not just with your clients, but, you know, hanging out with people at these trainings and seeing their heart. You know, I'm thinking about being out in Las Vegas and just watching how people are with other people. The folks who are listening are some of the most caring people in the world. They really are healers and so thank you for being you and given the energy you do to invest in other humans. Means a lot.

[C]

All right, man. Shout out to the places we've been. Montana, thank you so much. Dallas, you've been out in Vegas. Anywhere else you've been that I can't remember.

[A]

Where have I been? We had a local. We had Ali Barbosa trainer out of Mexico City come up and do some efit, which was excellent. It's good to learn from him.

[C]

I have heard so many good things about Ali's training. Seriously, I wish I could have been there.

[A]

It was good. It was really strong. Yeah. So, yeah. Getting ready to do a local training this tomorrow.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then head into South Florida for. For the big training down there. So lots going on.

[C]

Yeah, y', all, thank you so much. But back to this one. So Ryan and I were thinking about getting back into the studio, and we asked one of our colleagues who is a phenomenal therapist, phenomenal human being. We asked, like, hey, so, O.J. when you go into session, what are you afraid? What scares you going into session? And her answer was, like, very profound.

[A]

It was. It is, yeah. She was saying kind of the opposite of what we normally hear. So by OJ he means Olivia Jones, who we sometimes call Orenthal. That's a whole nother story, but you can Google that. But she said actually overly shutting someone down in an effort to handle a block or to keep focus. Do I overly shut someone down? Do I'm interpreting what she meant by that? Both harm the alliance, miss something important about them. Lose. Lose my balance. I thought that was really an astute thing to say. And I like even the way that you asked her the question or did I ask her the question you asked? I did. Okay. Because it was literally like, you know. Cause she was going to get a client, and I'm like, hey, if that was a really tough couple out there in the wedding room, what would scare you? And that's what scared her. So that's. That's a great conversation. I don't know that we have solutions, but let's make a dialogue about it.

[C]

Way to seize the moment, Ryan. So let's talk about this. You know, in a way, I don't know how you would want to title this, Ryan, but, like, it kind of makes me feel like in our effort, which might sound different for me and Ryan to say this, it's. We want you. We talk a lot about block work. I mean, matter of fact, I Think Block School 101 is one of our most popular episodes. Is something that George travels the world teaching and training about. But as we teach and train that we want you to also, like, appreciate the caution that OJ has in how you go about this, working with blocks in a way to not shame or pathologize or shut down your client. We are concerned about that. So we want to talk about that in a couple of different ways. My gut, Ryan, I want to go to George's reframe on blocks first. Then I want to talk about some of your block style work. Is that okay?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I like one day, George kind of. He always pays attention. He listens to feedback as he hears things as he's traveling. And he said, hey, I want to make sure that we're careful not to send this pathologizing message about blocks. Blocks is a term that we really use to talk about something, a process amongst us as clinicians, particularly when we're on the path to working with someone's vulnerability and their body just sends off a little bit of cue of a mistrust where they don't let you have access to that vulnerability. Or even. It's not even that they, they don't let you. They sometimes don't even let themselves have access to it. They stay away from it. And George paraphrased it back to, if I'm going to talk to a client about this process or, or I'm going to talk about the term anchors. And he says that for our clients, it's almost like this picture, like we're trying to take them on a destination on a ship. And then there's a moment where as we're going out to the island on the ship, the client might say, I'm not sure if I want to proceed. And they drop an anchor and the anchor is their mistrust saying, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable going further or I'm struggling to go further. And the orientation of the therapist around an anchor is to notice like, hey, something stopped our progress. What happened? To get curious about what made the anchor, what. What made the client drop the anchor? And then going through a process of helping our client pull the anchor back up out of the sea floor. And even just the other day, Ryan, I was actually watching a clip on social media where they showed the anchor being pulled up and it really does grab the earth and it's a big clump. And as they lift it, there's a sprayer on the end of the ship that sprays all the dirt off so the anchor can be secured again. And they need to make sure that the anchor is ready the next time it needs.

[A]

When it's up out of the water.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

Which was kind of cool. And I'm sitting like, oh, here we go. Anchors really do have a use and a purpose. And it's like, as therapists, how do we work with our clients around some of these anchors or blocks, in a way. So that was a good reframe to say the anchors are the mistrust. That's something we talk about with our client. And how do we go through the process of helping pull these anchors up, not just in a way of get over it, move forward, but like, hey, there's a good reason this came up. How do I help make your body feel safe and. And trust the process to keep moving towards the island of connection? You have anything on that, Ryan?

[A]

Man, there's a lot to say. I hate when that happens.

[C]

Ryan's brain is kind of glitching. He's rubbing his head now.

[A]

Yeah, Well, I have a trauma story around that. Yeah. So I have a friend. I don't know if I'm like, I'm sitting here going, am I going to say this or not? I have a friend whose son drowned.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

At the lake. It's a terrible story. I think about it fairly regularly. And what was happening is they were. As I dropped my notebook, they were on a boat, and their anchor got stuck and he dove to get it and drown. Right. So there's the trauma of that. It's been years and years and years ago, and the person's doing as well as they can, but there is danger.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

And working with these anchors in the process, I don't mean to make that too, like, you know, morbid, but these are real people. We're talking about the therapeutic process. We are trying to do our part to make a space to potentially save, salvage a relationship. And so really, how we manage these anchor moments, these blocks, goes a long way. I often say, I'll teach this Thursday of this week. You know, if you're going to be an eft, once you have the process in your bones, you know, like, I never think about tango because I've been doing this a long time. And so my body just sort of organically, because I've been trained. No.

[C]

Dance to tango organically again?

[A]

A little bit. Yeah. I have people watch my videos. Like, you did three tangos that session. I'm like, I never. That never crossed my mind. But I know I'm trying to go deeper, you know, I'M expecting blocks. I'm trying to get as deep as we can, and then we're going to enactments, and then we're obviously we're going to process them. I don't forget to do that anymore, though I did early on before we offer summary and, you know, start over. So, anyway, all that to say once you have that in your bones, what separates, you know, a beginning EFT from a proficient eft or to a really competent to a pro is really how many blocks you can manage. I still. I still maintain that it's the thing. And yet there is danger on both sides, like most things in life. And I think sometimes as trainers, we get stuck trying to emphasize one side or the other, when in the reality it's both. So I love that she brought this up today. You know, I think about focus, which we often say on this podcast, is the. Is the hardest, most, most difficult, most important.

[C]

I'm not wearing the bracelet today. I look down, I'm wearing. I'm actually wearing a leading edge bracelet. Ryan, have you gotten to see these? Sorry, I don't know.

[A]

I guess I'm not connected enough with those podcasts.

[C]

When we come out, I'll have. I always carry swag with me. All right. All right. I don't know if maybe my nickname should be SWAGU or something like that. I don't know.

[A]

Anyway.

[C]

No, but it's. I won't.

[A]

What the other one say.

[C]

The other one says focus is. Is the difference.

[A]

Okay. Focus is the difference. I like that. I like that. I like how flexible that is, too. Because one side of focus is you got to take control at key moments.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

And one of the markers of an inexperienced EFT is, is a moment comes by where they need to take control and they hesitate, usually for really good reasons, whether it's, like, not my personal style or they want to be more humanistic, whatever it is. But, you know, the. The cycle's about to rip you off the trail, the road, the map, and. And we hesitate, and next thing you know, we're in trouble. And then what happens then is people. People, you know, think, oh, it's because of this big content thing, is why it's not working, as opposed to I missed the moment here.

[C]

That's good.

[A]

Which we all do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And at the same time, there's that. That Olivia is pointing out is there's also risk on the other side that I'm trying to be so focused that I'm interrupting, that I'm keeping us on the right map. And do you lose the person or do you lose the emotion that was there? Because when someone blocks or an anchor is thrown, there's a lot of hurt there. There's a lot of vulnerable pain around and underneath that. And sometimes we can focus it so much that we miss how resourceful this, this emotion is. So I think this is a really important discussion.

[C]

I like it, Ryan. And I think one, thank you for adding the seriousness to it. So that way we're not, we don't want to just talk about this as a concept. This is real live people and this is, this is serious work. So thank you for that. You know, working with blocks, we don't want to be too nonchalant with it. Which is the other caution coming back.

[A]

To, to like a tactical.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Like almost like we're doing therapy to the person versus with them.

[C]

That's right. That's right. So I, the concept that you talked about a while ago that I really appreciate it was that was, I think maybe give some, take some pressure off a therapist. When you talked about block style work and you, something you said a moment ago was taking control at key moments. And there are key moments, there are some moments that have a little bit more weightiness, a little bit more vulnerability, a little bit more juice to it. And so the key, I think with this, when you said the block style, it's reacting towards the block or treating the block based upon where you are, the depth of where you are in session. So some blocks it might be, I might have a little small reaction to it or maybe even nothing to maybe a medium block might get a little more serious response. And then if it is a big block, that's definitely where we start pulling out CPR and parts work and terror and all that stuff.

[A]

And holding right there.

[C]

Exactly. We're not doing CPR and terror work with every single block every session.

[A]

And yeah, you're exactly right. And yet when it's a big block, if you just make a quick validation or a quick pass or even just try to have empathy towards it, it's just going to keep sitting there forever. And which is one thing that it's there in your sessions forever, but it's at home.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

It's going to continue to do harm to these people. You know, so when it's big, you got to get it stopped. But if you, if you do a big stop every time, then what. Then what Olivia is concerned about can happen.

[C]

Exactly. Shutting them down and you just keep stomping on everything, you know, There are some. I even felt myself a little bit today in a session where it was a just a couple was just kind of struggling and kind of doing something and I almost found myself like, wait, James, why are you activating so much? Give them a little room to breathe and like find a spot and pick a spot. But you don't have to like stomp on top of everything. That kind of pops up.

[A]

Yeah, well, cycles will train you to do that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you know what it feels like when the cycle takes over your session. And it's not just that it bothers you, you see it hurt them. So if you have, if you have the moves, then you're prone to over control. But I love that you caught that. And I catch myself doing this sometimes and it's like I didn't need that much control. And is that my anxiety?

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Or is that really an attuned moment to what's happening in front of me? Important questions.

[C]

Yep, it came back. Yep. And we're going to take a break because it take me back to a story where you told me about in Memphis. Sometimes it's like being willing to like kind of sit back and not have to make something happen. That's the key we want to watch out is when you're trying to make something happen and force it instead of coming alongside your client. But when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about kind of the other side and some of this block style work. It's an honor for Ryan and I to get to come to you on these airwaves, to meet you, where you are, with you and your clients who are pushing the leading edge in your clinical work. And we're thankful for this opportunity and for the work that you do. And we want to invite you that if you believe in the concepts of this podcast and you find them helpful as we do, we just invite you to be able to invest and to help keep this mission and this project going. You can support us by going on Venmo and looking for that's at LE F T P O D C A S T left podcast and you can show your support once again if you yourself are in a hard position or you serve maybe less resource population and therefore affects your fees. Please don't worry about giving, just continue to enjoy. But if you can, we invite you to help support this mission and keep it going. Thank you so much. All right, so back to block styles. You know, there are some times when my client might do a little something, like if I'm just kind of in a moment where there's not really emotion, but I'm trying to get access and it's not really alive in the room if they block. I might not even make a comment in a way in that moment if there's no live kind of like vulnerability. Me personally. Right. But like today it happened in a family session where I noticed something where I was trying to access the kids, the child, it's an adult child, but access their vulnerability. And they kind of just made a comment like there's tears in their eye and their parents were available. There was even tears in the parents eye and the kid made a comment of, well, but it's not really that big. It's not that important though. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. My, my body said, nope, this is the one. James, do not let this moment go.

[A]

I love the certainty of that, you know?

[C]

Yep. Because everything had took a lot of work to one work through the clock. The parents blocks to get to that moment where they were open and available. And then once we access the child, I'm like, no, this is the moment. If I let this go, I don't know when this family gets another moment like this, when the cycle has finally been calmed down and their vulnerability is able to come through. So in that moment I just kind of went to the child like, hey, I can really appreciate what your body's kind of trying to do. You see the predicament your parents are in and there's a part of you, you feel your emotions starting to come up and you just kind of say, well, it's not that important. But even when you say it's not like it's not that important, I almost feel like it's almost like, like, wow. It's almost like I'm not that important. I'm not that important to kind of cause my parent any problems. But I see this sadness in your eyes that kind of tells me that this really is important. So I'm just kind of curious. Can we stay here and get really curious about these tears that are coming out right now in a way that help you share this with your parents in a way that they've never really been able to understand you. And that was pivotal because once that moment broke, Ryan, it just became enactment after enactment after enactment. The child was able to send out a clear, vulnerable signal to something that they went through in their childhood. The parents were able to like, they, they, they, they finally got out of their defense and like, I'm so sorry you went through that. I had no Idea. And I'm like. But that to me was like, I didn't kind of ruin the alliance before, but this was a moment. It was worth it. It was worth taking the risk to kind of like, I can't let you just kind of blow past this moment.

[A]

Yeah, that's beautiful. And. And then that installs that corrective experience in your body, which helps you want to do more focus moves 100%, you know, so that's. That's a beautiful thing. And if you just miss that, I promise you, they had their cycle would have, like, filled it with a bunch of words, and in two minutes later, they would have been somewhere else.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Right back to the same stuckness. So. So there's your argument really, for focusing this and then the other side is what?

[C]

Yeah, and I've done that before. I think I Maybe even today that think about. I'm like, oh, I just. Why did you have to. Why couldn't you just let that one go, James? Like, it wasn't really, like, it didn't contribute anything. I can see how it kind of ruptured with the client. Now I gotta go and make some amends. Like, I'm sorry, I kind of jumped in too quick there. Can we reset kind of thing. But, you know, so that was the one I was like, huh. So I had this moment where, like, make a clear choice versus one where I felt myself kind of trying to be too active in a way. I don't know. That's kind of like my take on the block style work.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[C]

But what do you got, Ryan?

[A]

Well, I was just. I've said this before on here, you know, we all have to. We all have to work with what we have, and we all have different things, you know, So I love Becca Jorgensen's training on using warmth.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know, and I love, like a Leanne. And other people have this great presence. I don't really have that. I mean, I try to be warm, but that's not what wins for me. Let's just call it what it is. And so I've had the. I've had the really cool opportunity to interview people who worked with me 22 years ago, 18 years ago, and just say, hey, what was, you know, how you doing and what worked and what was it like to work with me? And to a person, what they say to me is, you know, you're not the easiest person to open up to initially, but what really made me trust you is how hard you worked. There was an intensity in working with You. So I always knew coming into your office, you were going to fight for us. So I say all that to say alliance can look different in different ways. What gets you into attunement, what builds that sense of trust? There are really different ways to do this. It's not always soft empathy. I think it can vary based on how the talent that you have and sort of what you bring to the table. That said, well, we also have to know what's on the shadow side of that. Right? So if someone has this just loving, warm presence, they have to also be assertive and know when they're going to have to step out of that role and say, hold on, we're stopping. Right? And then the same for me, I have to recognize even if I might feel small on the inside, I don't ever look small. And so I have to find ways to. To sort of strategically soften and humanistically soften. So one of the ways that I do that, maybe if you're listening and you're huge like I am or something, you know, I'm really a fan base purely on the clock, which we're all on one of those of getting my session started with a lot of focus around a little bit of cycle summary. How's your relationship right here, right now, today? Even in. Even in the last three weeks, I've been noticing how sometimes I don't get that. This is a sidebar here, how I sometimes don't get that question answered Exactly. And I find that those sessions to be less focused. So I'm like, hold on, I didn't. So I'm throwing in bottom line. I didn't get your bottom line exactly regarding your relationship right now, today with the person sitting next to you. So your heart towards their relationship right now is what. So forcing the bottom line. Right. Which is a heavy focus move. And then for me, my next move is a little paradoxical because if they're not about to hurt each other, I'm going to try to chill out for 10 minutes and just sort of give space for them to use a little bit of story for them to feel heard, for me to like validate and reflect and just chill right up into that, like, 15 minute or so. And that's really helpful for me to stay out of this warning thing that Olivia's bringing up today. So that's. That's one for me for sure. And, you know, I've got a case that I'm working right now. It's relatively new, and I, I want to tell you kind of two sides to this. I just recently completed my fifth session, and it was one of the best fifth sessions of my career. It was really a strong session, and it's a tough case. They almost broke up, you know, like not very long ago, like a month. And they're very sore. There's lots of pain there. There's lots of problems around it. And so the session five was really. It was really beautiful. An enactment where they both stood up without me asking them to. And it was just a lot of cool things that happened. But I walk away going, I'm not sure that I caught that person's emotional state. Right. So I'm going to see them today, actually later today. And so that's one of my goals here. I kind of have penciled in. Hey, make sure you capture that pursuer's experience. Because what happened is, as certain doors opened, I did enough focus moves to keep them moving a certain direction. And I'm not going to apologize for that because it needed to happen. And there was a great beauty and how the cycle had confused these signals. And once we got those wires uncrossed, they were like, of course I'd want to be there. Right. And can you feel it right now in your body? What do you think your body wants to do? My body wants to hold them or whatever. I'm like, oh, okay, right. So I'm not sorry for that because that hug was needed big time in a desert of love. We had a shot there, and yet there's a shadow side to everything. You know, it did. The amount of focus that was necessary to create that experience, that I really capture their experience, the emotions below that. So that's something that I think is. I think it's less about an answer and more about a process that we're always paying attention to that because there really is a risk on each side. Because if I throw away the focus and I just, like, I'm going to fully lean into the person's emotion in every situation, every time I'm going to hurt that person, ironically, because the cycle is going to be too strong. I never got it stopped enough. So maybe with that one person, I aligned or over aligned, maybe I got their experience, but I didn't make a space for something new to happen. And yet if you over focus it, which we're all at risk of doing, then you can miss very important points of pain. So that's what comes to mind for me.

[C]

Wow. Ryan, thank you for that. Thank you for the story, seriously. And one, thank you for your commitment to, like. Because if you Hear that? Ryan doesn't just close the books on a session and not replay it in his head. He went back and thought through that session, said, hey, there's some things that are good, but what could I do better? And now he's going into the next session, at least with some focus, to go towards some target, which is cool. Also, what you. When you said that, Ryan, it reminded me. I remember when you. You asked at a training. What's the first thing you lose when you're in an insecure. When you're kind of like an insecure attachment? And we're all like, what is Ryan asking? What is Ryan asking? And he said, the ability to be flexible. And as you're saying that, what hit me was, oh, that's right. While we're trying to help teach and model kind of secure attachment, we also gotta model it ourselves. And that means we as a therapist have to be able to be flexible. And flexible means there's times for focus and there's time to read the moment and say, when I don't use focus, as when I. When I can tolerate not holding a very rigid focus kind of thing, and allow the process to kind of unfold and to develop. I don't know if I'm saying that right. If that's landing for you.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's, that's Sue's stuff, not mine, of course. But yeah. And insecurity brings about rigidity. When security starts to come back in, that exploratory kicks on, you become flexible. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I liked. And I think it does. It does make something. It does allow space for the humanity of the work and to be with clients. And it also does say, but there's time for business. Yeah, you're a professional. They paid you for something. And not just to be working, but it's like, the way I say it, it's like, I'm not. I'm not. Ryan's probably definitely more of a football person. But it's like with running backs, they teach, like, just because you're fast and strong doesn't mean that you're going to be a great running back. A running. A great running back actually has patience and they know when to hit the gap up the guards, pulled over the tackles, done their job, shoot the gap. And sometimes for us as therapists, we got to know, like, hey, it's been nice. It's fun that we're having this casual conversation. We're kind of talking about some good stu. But then it's like, oh, there it is. And so that's why I appreciate OJ's willingness, because she is a very focused therapist herself. She's brilliant. She's done a lot of work. But for her to have that, like, hey, even in all my brilliance and all my good stuff, is there ever a moment when I use it too rigidly to the detriment of my client? So.

[A]

And yeah. And thank. Thank you, Olivia. And to the point where it makes you not want to do it. Right. That's the point of this whole series because, you know, for us, just thinking about mission, we need some of our talented healers to stay with couples and, you know, have a remnant of your practice where you're willing to do this. It's harder. I don't care what anybody says. It's the only time I've ever had direct conflict with Sue Johnson. At one point, she's like, it's not that much harder. I'm like, it is. Yeah, it is. You know, it may be a little while since you've seen a couple, sue, but everything else, she's probably right, but I'll stay with that. It's hard. It's harder on your body, it's harder on your, you know, even what you think about before you go get the cup, what's different? And yet I hope we. I hope that people will continue to do this because our communities desperately need it. And yet, if we don't have a space to sort through what scares us, next thing you know, you're just going to want to work with individuals and not a thing in the wrong way world. Not a thing in the world wrong with that, except to say, what about the need of our communities kind of bleeding out here? So there's. There's good reasons to be scared, and yet you're not alone in the fear. We got places we can talk about this. We got places we can make space for this. And we're with you.

[C]

And so that's good. Right? When you said, I feel like. I feel like you just did a tango move 5 with the what Scares Therapist series.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

It feels like it. I know Ryan really likes this, this series, y'. All. Every time I'm like, hey, I think it's time to move on. He's like, I got one more, got one more, got one more.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's scary.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And in many ways, that fear mirrors what the couple's going through, so.

[C]

And I want to catch something else. Ryan said, you know, I want to encourage you. We do this here at our practice here in northwest Arkansas, but I want to encourage you. If you have colleagues, talk to them about the things that scares you. The worst thing that can happen to you as a therapist is that you begin to hold your own fears out of fear of imposter syndrome or that other people don't go through it. I think we kind of create this almost. I think it's happened to me. Like, we do so much work of. Our work is confidential and in secret. And so we think we're the only ones that have these fears when our other colleagues do too. Our bodies need permission to kind of get these fears out so we can be our most open, kind of available self. And I feel like we have to hide it. Yeah. So that's my encouragement. And also I'm excited about a. We're not sure if we're going to do it as a series or is it just going to be an episode. We're talking about it, but I'm excited. So I'm gonna say it on the episode.

[A]

Right.

[C]

What? Like, kind of like what to think about before you go in session. And that's where we really. Ryan and I have been hearing you all, where you're saying, like, we're with you in session. You kind of hear us as like those temporary attachment figures in a way on your eft journey. And so the idea is we want to help you. Like, how do you. I'm sorry, this reminds me of an old song I used to listen to Louisiana called get your mind right. And it's like, how do you get your mind right before you go into session? You know, I think we all need some help with that. So I'm looking forward to that series of coming along therapists to get their mind right before they go in session. We might even label that get your mind right, get your mind right.

[A]

Sounds fun.

[C]

All right, y', all, thank you so much. Appreciate you.

[B]

Thank you for listening. We hope this experience helps you push the leading edge in your work to help people connect with themselves and with each other. Please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star review. You can contact us at pushtheleadingedgemail.com and you can follow us on our Facebook page at push the leading edge. You can follow Ryan on Facebook at Ryan Rayner Professional training and on his website, ryanrenatraining.com. you can follow James on Facebook and Instagram at Doc Hawk LPC. You can also check out his website, Doc HawkLPC.com.