Episode 255: "An Ideal Husband" by Oscar Wilde, Act 4 & Film Adaptations

Summary

The Literary Life Podcast – Episode 255 Summary: "An Ideal Husband" by Oscar Wilde, Act 4 & Film Adaptations

Introduction

In Episode 255 of The Literary Life Podcast, hosts Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks delve into the final act of Oscar Wilde's classic play, An Ideal Husband, while also exploring its various film adaptations. Joining them is special guest Atlee Northmore, a film expert, who provides additional insights into how Wilde's work has been interpreted on screen.

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1. Analyzing Act 4 of "An Ideal Husband"

An Ideal Husband concludes with Act 4, a typically brief chapter in Wilde's comedies that aims to resolve the intricate plot threads. Angelina and Thomas critique the effectiveness of this act, particularly focusing on the handling of Mrs. Cheveley.

Key Points:

• Closure and Character Resolution: The hosts express disappointment with Mrs. Cheveley's abrupt disappearance in Act 4. Despite her significant role and development throughout the play, her exit feels unanchored and unresolved.

  Angelina Stanford [16:10]: "What happened to Mrs. Cheveley? I need to know what happened to her."

• Comparative Analysis: Comparing An Ideal Husband to Wilde's subsequent play, The Importance of Being Earnest, they argue that the latter showcases Wilde's comedic mastery more effectively.

  Thomas Banks [16:41]: "I think Importance of Being Earnest ... shows his comic mastery at its finest."

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2. Satire and Themes in Act 4

The discussion shifts to the thematic elements Wilde employs, particularly his satire on Victorian societal norms and gender roles.

Key Themes:

• The "Angel in the House": The hosts explore Wilde's critique of the ideal Victorian woman, asserting that Mrs. Chiltern embodies the trope of a perfect, morally guiding spouse meant to influence her husband and, by extension, society.

  Angelina Stanford [23:25]: "The angel in the house being... that was very much a topic of conversation at the time."

• Women's Suffrage and Influence: They highlight the play's reflection of contemporary debates on women's suffrage, where arguments against voting were often couched in terms of women's supposed moral superiority and indirect influence through their husbands.

  Angelina Stanford [28:39]: "Women don't need to vote. They already have influence in the public sphere. ... their influence over your husband at home."

Challenges in Satire:

• Both hosts agree that Wilde's satirical intent may not seamlessly translate to modern audiences, potentially leading to misinterpretations of misogyny rather than the intended critique.

  Angelina Stanford [23:25]: "If you don't understand the form... they think he's some kind of misogynist."

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3. Film Adaptations of "An Ideal Husband"

The latter part of the episode focuses on various film adaptations of Wilde's play, evaluating their fidelity to the source material and effectiveness in conveying its themes.

Overview of Adaptations:

• Historical Perspectives: Atlee Northmore provides an overview of numerous adaptations, noting the surprising number of international productions, including Soviet and Argentine versions.

  Atlee Northmore [36:34]: "There are like 40. I think there are 18 or 19 screen versions."

• Noteworthy Versions:

  • 1947 Adaptation: Features Paulette Goddard as Mrs. Cheveley, noted for behind-the-scenes drama rather than its reception.
  • 1969 BBC Play of the Month: Presented more like a traditional stage play with limited cinematic elements.
  • 1999 Film Version: Starring Rupert Everett and Cate Blanchett, this adaptation sparks significant discussion.

Focus on the 1999 Adaptation:

• Directorial Choices: Oliver Parker's approach to the 1999 film includes extensive use of outdoor scenes and dynamic camera movements to differentiate it from the original play's static setting.

  Thomas Banks [49:43]: "He went out of his way to film it as much as possible to distract the audience from any knowledge they might have that this is based on a play."

• Performance and Tone: While Rupert Everett's portrayal of Lord Goring is praised for its charisma, the overall tone of the film diverges from Wilde's lighthearted satire, leaning more towards melodrama and serious romance.

  Angelina Stanford [56:09]: "I found that it went in the direction of melodrama... this is not an Oscar Wilde play."

  Angelina Stanford [60:27]: "None of their lines... came off as light and frivolous."

• Character Dynamics: The film adds romantic tension between Lord Goring and Mabel, which is not prominent in the play, altering the narrative's satirical edge.

  Angelina Stanford [62:19]: "They changed the whole resolution of the play... Now they're on equal footing, which is not at all the satire."

Critical Reception:

• The hosts express mixed feelings about the 1999 version, appreciating the lavish production and performances but critiquing its departure from Wilde's intended satire and comedic essence.

  Thomas Banks [65:18]: "We like it, though. It was a lot of fun."

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4. Final Reflections and Insights

The episode concludes with reflections on the challenges of adapting stage plays to film, particularly regarding maintaining the original tone and thematic integrity. Despite recognizing the imperfections in the adaptations discussed, especially the 1999 version, the hosts affirm their appreciation for engaging with Wilde's work and its interpretations.

Notable Quotes:

• Angelina Stanford [66:28]: "We have a view of the past that is so faulty in its lens... we think, oh, yeah, that's just how they thought."

• Thomas Banks [70:27]: "I’m always happy to revisit Oscar Wilde."

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Conclusion

Episode 255 offers a comprehensive exploration of Oscar Wilde's An Ideal Husband, its final act, and its various film adaptations. Through thoughtful critique and engaging discussion, Angelina Stanford, Thomas Banks, and guest Atlee Northmore illuminate the enduring complexities of Wilde's satire and the interpretative challenges posed by adapting literary works to the screen. Whether analyzing Victorian gender norms or evaluating cinematic interpretations, the episode underscores the timeless relevance of Wilde's commentary on society and human nature.

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Notable Quotes:

• Angelina Stanford [25:26]: "A man's life is of more value than a woman's. It has larger issues, wider scope, greater ambitions."

• Thomas Banks [16:41]: "Importance of Being Earnest ... shows his comic mastery at its finest."

• Angelina Stanford [65:38]: "If you don't understand the play the right way... you think he's some kind of misogynist."

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For Listeners: To engage further with the discussions from this episode and explore more literary analyses, visit HouseOfHumaneLetters.com and consider joining the podcast's Patreon community for exclusive content and resources.

Transcript

[Angelina Stanford]

This is not just another book chat podcast. Lifelong reader Cindy Rollins joins teachers Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks for an ongoing conversation about the skill and art of reading. Well, explore the lost intellectual tradition and discover how to fully enter into the great works of literature. Learn what books mean while delighting in the sheer joy of imagination. Each week we will rescue story from the ivory tower and bring it to your couch, your kitchen and your commute. The Literary Life is for everyone because in the words of Stratford Caldecott, to be enchanted by story is to be granted a deeper insight into reality. Join us for an ever unfolding discussion of how stories will save the world. This is the Literary Life Podcast. Hello and welcome back to the Literary Life Podcast. I'm Angelina Stanford and I am here with my ideal husband who will, who will keep assisting to this proper sphere in life if I, his beloved wife, forgive him.

[Thomas Banks]

I'm not going into politics.

[Angelina Stanford]

Was that not the moral? Did I misread it? Is that not the moral? Ladies, if we just stop judging our husbands and forgive them, they will rise. And this, ladies, is how we shall change the world through our loving and forgiving guidance.

[Thomas Banks]

At home, I'll have to start multiplying scandals.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, guys, it's satire. And we will be unpacking all of this satire today as we finish up our series on Oscar Wild's play An Ideal Husband. So today we'll talk about Act 4 and then we're going to have a special guest join us in the second half.

[Thomas Banks]

I was going to say, but soft, we are observed.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right, we have a low. Hark, what film expert is yonder? We will be joined in a little bit by Atlee Northmore to talk about this particular play in film. So before we jump into that, just a quick reminder, it is still that time of year where the House of Humane Letters is having its annual Christmas sale. 20% off all of those things you've been dying to get. You've had your eye on it all year. Now's the time to act. We also have a whole bunch of gift cards if you're looking for some last minute Christmas gifts. And those will be, those will show up in your inbox instantly and you'll be able to use that. And the sale goes through the end of the year. So if you bought somebody a gift card, they could then use it and get more for their money by taking advantage of the sale.

[Thomas Banks]

Indeed, indeed.

[Angelina Stanford]

So, yeah, the how to Read Fairy Tales class, How to read Beowulf, how to read Sir Gawain. Our various bundles oh, my. How to Retaming of the Shrew. That's a good one. The Harry Potter class.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, the Harry Potter class has been quite popular.

[Angelina Stanford]

And your Augustin class. Jason Baker's. Jason Baker. Sorry, I always get that wrong because I have a friend named Jason Baker. Jason Baxter's Dostoevsky class, at least last year, Star Wars Webinar and Philip's Plato Webinar. I mean, on and on and on and on.

[Thomas Banks]

You know, on that odd note of confusing names of our colleagues, I have a couple times referred to Anne Baxter.

[Angelina Stanford]

Wow. Which is how rumors.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. So, no, but. And then. And then I think, wait, that's a classic movie actress. And Baxter was Eve and All About Eve, my favorite movie, incidentally.

[Angelina Stanford]

But I would just like to remind our audience that the views expressed by Thomas Banks are not necessarily the views of the house of Humanity.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

So that's. That's what we've got going on. And speaking of, at least Star wars webinar last year, if you missed it, it was such a treat. We had so much fun doing that. A few days after Christmas, I just had a ball watching entire families packed in front of their computer screen cheering and oohing and ahhing and just totally geeking out. And we decided to make that an annual tradition. So last year, Atlee led us through, what is it, four, five, and six. Right. So four, five, and six of the Star wars franchise. And his lens for those was fantastic. We looked at them as examples of a medieval romance. And so he was able to not only talk about Star wars, but to use that to explain how medieval romances work. And it was just a great, great deal of fun. And so this year, he is following up on last year's success with a webinar on the prequels. And this time he will be talking about them in terms of a number of things. I think he's going to look at the influences of film noir and some other things like that, but he's also going to be talking about it in terms of looking at the first three as a Greek tragedy. And he's calling this one the Tragedy of Darth Vader. And you know what somebody said, and we posted and announced the webinar, and somebody commented just the title and the description. I now feel like I understand things so much better.

[Thomas Banks]

Really.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. And she made the point, too, that it is more of a Greek tragedy. If you start the prequels knowing Darth Vader's gonna fall. Right. That does. That fits more with the classic Greek tragedy. Whereas if you make the mistake of starting your children with episode one. Yes. Right then. Then you. You ruin it. You need to know he's the bad guy. But I'm sure Atlee will get all into that. So you want to go to HouseOfHumaneLetters.com and you want to sign up for at least webinar. It's going to be December 30th, but again, live or later, you'll own the recording, so you can watch it whenever and as many times as you like. And you can also go to HouseOfHumaneLetters.com to find all of the information about our Christmas sale. All right, well, shall we jump in with some commonplace quotes?

[Thomas Banks]

By all means. Do you want to go first?

[Angelina Stanford]

I will go last.

[Thomas Banks]

Mine. Mine will need a bit of an introduction.

[Angelina Stanford]

Then I will go first.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

How about I go first. Ladies first.

[Thomas Banks]

That's an idea.

[Angelina Stanford]

Very Victorian. I won't judge you for that. I will forgive you.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm going to get so much angel in the house. I'm going to get so much mileage out of this. Mr. Banks, you just wait. Like every time you turn around, I'm just going to go into my. My Lady Chiltern voice and say, but dear, it is okay. I shall love you, faults and all, but you still need to load the dishwasher correctly.

[Thomas Banks]

That's the most horrifying voice you've ever used.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's all right. My quote. I'm going to be continuing what I've been doing for the last few weeks, giving you quotes from Jason Baxter's upcoming book that we are publishing in our brand new publishing house, Cassiodorus Press. If you have not pre ordered this book, stop everything. Pause this podcast, go to cassiodorus press.com and pre order this bad boy because it is amazing. It is amazing. And check out Jason Substacks, Beauty Matters if you haven't already. He's been posting with chapters from the book and just sharing a lot of resources and getting us all very, very excited about that. And also we got our hands on the book. The printers sent us our first copy and it is absolutely gorgeous and we're so excited. And my first. The just a little behind the scenes info for you guys. My first thought when I looked at the book was, please God, let this be nicer than Amazon print on demand. And it is. And the reason that was my prayer is we absolutely killed ourselves because I did not want to do Amazon print on demand. I wanted to be a real publishing house. And that required a whole Lot of work. Far more work than I had known going in. If I had known how much work. I probably just said we just like, you know, print this on the back of my child's handwritten, you know, Christmas cards and, and send this out, you know, send it off to Kinko's. I would have sent it to Kinko's. Right? That's aging me. FedEx. Kinko's. But once we saw the book, it is absolutely beautiful. I am so proud of it. I'm so proud of the work of our entire team. Atlee did the layout. Jen Rogers has been directing the project and editing. It has been a team effort. Our distribution team is working like mad to get these books out. And as, as being told by the post office that you will have these books by Christmas if they don't get there, I'm just going to say, well, the post office is being. Well, I, for me, I feel like the greatest sign that our country is in decline is how long it is taking to get mail, if you get it at all.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, yeah. It's a nice surprise when you do. Maybe it makes us more grateful.

[Angelina Stanford]

Surprise to get, you know, last year's Christmas cards are slowly making it to our house in 2024. So just, just, just a hoot. Okay, so here's my quote, nice long one to just really wet your whistle. And you're really going to run on over there and pre order this after you hear this. So this is from chapter four called Disappearing Landscapes. What our selfies are doing to ourselves. If I'm right, then we're losing the ability to be moved by still things because we're moving too fast to be quiet in front of them. We might have come to stand before these places of awe, moved by the noble desire to heal our own inner emptiness. But standing in front of them, we don't know what to do. So we start to fidget spiritually and in a desire to do something, we take pictures which we will recontextualize in a fast moving platform. Well, they will make up part of our selfie narratives. The split second contact for other people's violent late night, sad hearted, envious episodes of bottomless scrolling. Here's her in front of a waterfall. Now she's in front of a famous valley. Here's her in Paris. 100% you. If I translate what I see into a series of posts that you can, that you can accelerate through in an act of bottomless scrolling, then you can feel their importance, but only at the price of depth and complexity. And I need a lot of them. Because as I flatten out the images, I have to string them together in a desperate effort to relocate qualitative experience with quantitative amplification. But what is more, when I post these images, the reality is I have forgotten to look at the thing itself. Rather, as I snap that picture, I am already in my mind looking at how you will look at me. I am the sort of person who stands in front of so many things worth looking at. In other words, the attention moves from the phenomenon of wonder onto how I look in front of them. And thus, the life giving, nourishing encounter with beauty I described above is perpetually deferred. And starved for beauty, I participate all the more feverishly in the attempt to consume it. But unbeknownst to me, I am using what I stand in front of merely to amplify the power of my image rather than allowing what I see to empower my interior life. Thus, I starve my inner heart while consuming outer experiences. The whole world becomes nothing but a series of changing backgrounds for my face. Experiences I purchase in order to enhance my social value. In the currency of likes.

[Thomas Banks]

That has to be one of the most depressing passages I've heard in any context.

[Angelina Stanford]

I don't want this going to Jason's head, but, man, every time that guy opens his mouth and puts out his pen, it's poetry. Am I right?

[Thomas Banks]

That is really good. But, my God, he's so good.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, but see, you can see what I actually wrote in the margin here. Like, this is exactly what we do to literature. This is exactly what C.S. lewis talks about when we start making our literary experiences about us instead of what it is we are looking at. We do the exact same thing that he's describing here. And I want to say he very.

[Thomas Banks]

Gently and eloquently eviscerated the spiritual aspirations of probably most people.

[Angelina Stanford]

Talkers everywhere are weeping. Exactly. Yeah. I made a terrible mistake deciding to read it off the draft copy instead of the edited proof copy. In my laziness, I did not want to pull up.

[Thomas Banks]

No, that was very good.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, but I mean, I was. Anyway, pardon me. I was stumbling over typos and the wrong word and other things and trying to figure out, oh, no, what word is that supposed to be? So, my bad. But anyway, it's a fantastic book and really, we're so proud of it. Well done to Jason. And you really need to go get yourself a copy of that. All right, Mr. Banks.

[Thomas Banks]

So this is a passage from an essay by the late, great Clive James called F.R. leavis in America. And it's about the, oh, the mid 20th century literary mandarin, Fr Levis, and how he began as kind of an idol in young Clive James mind and how gradually, through reading him, through seeing.

[Angelina Stanford]

His lectures, oh God, he came to his senses.

[Thomas Banks]

James came to see that his idol sort of had feet of clay, honestly. And how Levis had arrived at the point of, you know, influence and, you know, command in the academic hierarchy that he had kind of not so much through superior learning but through brazen dogmatism and his ability and also kind of amoral willingness to wreck other people's careers when their literary judgments departed from his. So he writes about him. Thus, on top of these particular misjudgment, there was his pervasive indulgence in the language of calumny. Special venom was reserved for fellow critics who arrived at his conclusions before he did. When he finally decided that Dickens was a great writer, he took particular care to vilify any other critics who had dared to say so because they hadn't been right in the right way. He treated D.H. lawrence the way the Scholiasts had once treated Virgil as a voodoo talisman. I already thought there were totalitarian tendencies in all this, but had not yet found the nerve to say so. Hence the strained tone of respect trying to conceal repulsion. So anyway, nice. And he said, and he again, I think he. He brings into this. And Clive James did not know CS Lewis, but there conclusions about Fr. Leavers are kind of similar in that they saw him as a man who was almost kind of like a religious leader who hadn't found a religion and therefore, you know, decided to take up, you know, to exercise his. To exercise his almost sort of priestly sense of himself in the literary.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, that's why Louis Lewis refers to Levi's disciples who actually recall the Levocides.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

As puritans and zealots. And they.

[Thomas Banks]

And they absolutely work because the Spanish Inquisition doesn't exist anymore. We will become literary critics instead.

[Angelina Stanford]

Exactly. Exactly. All right, well, let's turn our attention to Act 4. It's a very short act, as you would expect in a comedy. Everything gets sewed up, it's light. We have our happy ending. We have the double fairy tale ending of a wedding and also a reconciled wife and husband. You know, everything's hunky dory, everything's right in the world. Sewn up too neatly perhaps.

[Thomas Banks]

I think actually not neatly enough. I think that there are a couple of failures in this last. I don't think they handicapped the play I think it's still a very, very fine comedy. I don't think it's quite on a level. The same level as An Importance of Being Ernest, though. I think that one, which actually came immediately after this, I think he wrote them within a year or two of each other. That one, I think, shows his comic mastery at its finest. This one, I think, has just one or two. One or two threads that might have been sewn up more neatly, but in.

[Angelina Stanford]

Particular, we both felt like. What happened to Mrs.

[Thomas Banks]

Disappears? Yeah, she. I mean, she is. She's defeated.

[Angelina Stanford]

That I don't recognize.

[Thomas Banks]

She doesn't. She doesn't compass her, you know, compass her designs of, you know, wrecking Sir Robert's career, nor is she able to convince him to take up a position other than the one he already holds. But, yeah, she just kind of disappears. I mean, it's like he just sort of forgets about her as a character.

[Angelina Stanford]

It struck me like a hanging thread, too.

[Thomas Banks]

I think she needed to be. I think she needed to be exposed publicly.

[Atlee Northmore]

I don't.

[Thomas Banks]

I don't mean like her life needs to be destroyed and she needs to be set off to, like, you know, a work camp or something. I don't mean that, but I think she needs to be visibly humiliated in the final act. I think that needed to be part of the denouement and was not.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, I agree. I. I've never read this before, and I was. The way he set it up, I was expecting it. And again, it didn't even need to be a big scene. Like, I'm thinking about Much Ado about Nothing.

[Thomas Banks]

I was actually thinking the same thing, right.

[Angelina Stanford]

Like, Shakespeare just has a line.

[Thomas Banks]

Don. Don. John.

[Angelina Stanford]

John. And just. Just as one saying, the guy, yeah, he ran out of town and then we caught him. The end. Like, but. But he doesn't leave it hanging.

[Thomas Banks]

Just like, disappear. Yeah, that.

[Angelina Stanford]

I think I was shocked when I got to the end and it said the end. And I was like, wait, what happened to Mrs. Cheveley? I need to know what happened to her.

[Thomas Banks]

Also when. When Lord Robert has resigned and, you know, he's. He's offered a cabinet position and, you know, he. His life could improve even more than it already has. But he says, no, I've learned my lesson. I've pursued my ambitions too much, and I think I'm just going to retire into private life. I think he should be allowed to do that. It seems that he should have learned by this point in the play that putting all else beside his sacrificing all else or being willing to sacrifice all else to his political standing and professional advancements. This has almost ruined his life and the lives of others around him. But now he's going to remain an even more exalted position in the British government. And I.

[Angelina Stanford]

So I read that maybe I'm, maybe.

[Thomas Banks]

I'm reading too much into that.

[Angelina Stanford]

I read it just a little bit different.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

So I read it, and this surprised me because we had watched the film, which we'll talk about in a little while, but the film plays this differently than the stage directions are written here. And the stage directions say that as he's saying, I guess I won't accept this position. He's looking at his wife, and she gives him sort of a withering look, and he's like, okay, no, I definitely am going retire. I'm going try. Right? That's the plan. That's what my wife says is the plan. So I got the sense that she was in control of that. And then she withdraws that later and says, okay, you can take it. And he says, all right. And so I thought that this was less about. This was less about Lord Chilton's whether or not he was getting his personal ambitions and more about who was ruling the roost and that she, she had to withdraw her judgment from that and forgive him. Again, that's part of the satire. I'm not suggesting that, like, this is, like, the moral of the. No.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. Like how it should be.

[Angelina Stanford]

Right. But, but, yeah, No, I actually thought he did not want to give up public life. And so that we're supposed to think of it as it.

[Thomas Banks]

His wife sort of prompted him into this.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, she, I think she bullies it. I have to find the exact line. But it says, she gives him this withering look, and he, so he takes it back and says, no, no, I'll just retire from private life. So then later, when she says, you don't have to, he's like, oh, really, dear? I don't. Yay.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, I, I, I, I'm not convinced, I guess. I, I, I, I think that that was an error of dramatic judgment. But that's, Again, it's, it's not a huge one. It doesn't, it doesn't ruin the play for me.

[Angelina Stanford]

I agree. Not, not huge ones. My feeling is similar to yours. I enjoyed it a lot, but honestly found the fourth act to be a little disappoint. Not on the level of the Importance of Being Earnest. Yeah. Not on the level of the rest of it.

[Thomas Banks]

Importance of Being Earnest is, I think that's just a.

[Angelina Stanford]

It's a masterpiece.

[Thomas Banks]

Perfection in dramatic construction right there. Yeah, I think that that is. And yes, here it feels. It feels as if he.

[Angelina Stanford]

It's just a little.

[Thomas Banks]

He lets something of the wind out of his sails here at the end here. And, yeah, he doesn't quite know what to do with all of his characters. I mean, that's fine. But I would give this play. I would give it probably an A minus if I were grading it.

[Angelina Stanford]

And that's what happens.

[Thomas Banks]

Things like that are kind of arbitrary.

[Angelina Stanford]

He just didn't know what to do with her.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. Because, I mean, again, it would equally spoil the tone of the play if, like, the police came and arrested her and she's going to be sent off to women's prison. That would be too much of a punishment. But, yeah, she needs to know. We need to see in her face.

[Angelina Stanford]

That she is defeated or that she's not defeated. We need something. We need to know something.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, or like, she's. Or maybe like she's just going to be one of these villains who kind of goes off and we have the sense that she's going to, you know, get involved in some plot somewhere else.

[Angelina Stanford]

I felt like we spent so much time at the beginning of this play developing Mrs. Cheveley, her backstory. She's got some kind of dishonest backstory. There's something that went on with her in the Baron. There was so much buildup for her to just not even appear in Act 4. I was like, what is happening? Especially because she was way more developed than Mabel was. And so for Mabel to take the forefront at the end, I just felt like, whoa, whoa, whoa. What just happened?

[Thomas Banks]

Yep. Yep. I feel much the same way.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, it was a lack of balance there, but lots of fantastic lines. Lots of fantastic lines. All the conversations between Lord Goring and his father are absolutely hilarious.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, that. That is. Yeah, that's something that the play could even stand more of, I think. Yeah. Their diamond, their dynamic, I think is one of the. One of the more inherently funny in the play. And. And the father gets to name the play. He says, if you don't make her an ideal husband, you'll hear a word about it from me at the end. But I mean, you know, I mean, at the end of this, we know there are no ideal husbands, there are no ideal wives. And, you know, idolizing your spouse is going to have. That's going to have consequences somewhere.

[Angelina Stanford]

So I want to talk about the satire in Act 4, and it is exactly what you say. There's no ideal husbands, there's no ideal wives. I like satire a whole lot. I like Oscar Wilde a whole lot. The woman question is my favorite of the Victorian issues to think about and look about in literature. And I see exactly what he's doing. But I gotta tell you, and maybe this is like a shocking, scandalous thing for me to say, I felt like it was a little heavy handed and it didn't work.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay, I, I actually wouldn't argue with that. I, I think that, I think that at the end, I think he probably should have given Lord Goring the last line rather than Robert and Robert's wife. It seems that, yeah, it ends with, I don't know, maybe he felt the need to tie everything up with a little, you know, touch of a note of matrimonial bliss or something like that. But, yeah, I think he probably should have ended it with, with Lord Goring saying something witty and devastating.

[Angelina Stanford]

And I, I almost hesitate to say that I didn't think the satire worked at the end because it was too heavy handed, because maybe that's not fair. Maybe, maybe it does work in 1895, it just doesn't work in 2024 here on the eve of 2025. But I also feel like I have read a lot of Victorian novels and I know a lot about the role of women in those plays. And yeah, again, I just, I felt like it, it was just a little laid on a little bit too thick for me. At the same time, I do want to talk about what he's satiriz. It struck me that this is an example of what I'm talking about when I say if you don't understand the form, you're going to read the story backwards. And if somebody does not understand exactly what he said rising here, I think they would read Act 4 and just be furious with him and think he's some kind of misogynist and not realize that those are satirical lines. So this was all very funny to me when Lord Goring is telling her, look, that you have to forgive him, and he gives her that speech. And then when Robert walks in, she, she repeats exactly what he said, word for word. A man's life is of more value than a woman's. It has larger issues, wider scope, greater ambitions. Our lives revolve in curves of emotions. It is upon lines of intellect that a man's life progresses. I have just learned this and much else with it from Lord Goring. And I will not spoil your life, nor see you spoil it as a sacrifice to me. A Useless sacrifice. So this is obviously Oscar Wilde.

[Thomas Banks]

Well, yeah, Also the fact that she says, I have just learned this and much else from Lord Goring, the idol fop, who's not exactly a philosopher of much weight.

[Angelina Stanford]

It's a great line, too, about the philosopher under the dandy. Yeah, that was. Oh, that was a stage direction. That was so good. That was so good. So, yes, this is obviously the Victorian view that a man's life is of more value than a woman. But I think the biggest thing he's going at Oscar Wilde is going for here is again, the idea in the late Victorian age, late 1800s, that they're really reconsidering the role of women. And you are starting to see a lot of writers poke at the angel in the house idea. The angel in the house being. Again, we talked about this really at length in things like the Dracula series and Agnes Graham probably, probably talked about it in some of the Austen novels as well.

[Thomas Banks]

But Dickens also, I think.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, yeah, we talked about it at hard times a whole lot. But in a nutshell, the angel in the house is the concept that a woman is going to be this perfect, pure spiritual creature, this house ornament, this angelic being, and that she will guide the moral temper of the home and through that, the moral temper of the nation. And Oscar Wilde is absolutely going for that with the throat where she gives that speech at the end. And this, ladies, is how ladies will change the world. We rule the world by forgiving our husbands and loving them and ruling through them. So this was actually. Now there's a lot more to the whole angel in the house. I mean, honestly, women were treated as less than human, you know, overgrown children. Honestly, house ornaments. We talk about trophy wives like they were. They were literally called house ornaments. That was. That was the ideal. But by the time you get to the late 1800s and we do see Lady. Lady Chiltern and being involved in that, and the. The other older woman's talking about the modern woman in one of the earlier acts and kind of poking at that and saying, oh, well, you're a modern woman. You do start to see women pushing against that and they start to get involved in a whole lot of causes. Women's suffrage becomes a huge, huge issue. And that was a lot of the conversation around women's suffrage. I mean, bosh, the people in England did not get the right to vote until even after the women of the United States did. So their suffrage movement went on a very long time. And really, the women in France, I.

[Thomas Banks]

Actually did some research France after World War II.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right. In the 1940s. I know. I did a research.

[Thomas Banks]

I can tell that Switzerland women, I believe, were allowed to vote in national elections after 1970. I do not know why, why that is the case in Switzerland.

[Atlee Northmore]

But.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, there you are.

[Angelina Stanford]

Wow. So that was a lot of the debate actually around the question of should women vote. So those against the woman's vote were basically saying, look, you, you do have influence in the public sphere and you have influence by the influence you have over your husband at home. Sweet and wonderful temperament, your angelic being, your perfection. He will rise to whatever standard you want him to be because you're just so spiritual and perfect and loving and you guide him, you lead from behind that kind of idea.

[Thomas Banks]

I've agreed with you that Wilde here has a satirical purpose. I don't think he succeeds in making Mr. And Mrs. Chiltern with their professed ideals of, you know, domestic perfection again and how they're going to help each other mutually lean on each other like, you know, the, the stones in an arch. I don't think he succeeds in making that funny at this very last.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, I agree with you.

[Thomas Banks]

He could have done more, I think.

[Angelina Stanford]

I mean, when I say it's too heavy handed, like it's too preachy instead.

[Thomas Banks]

Of being funny, it almost seems, I think, like, yeah, it seems he's someone a little bit more mean spirited. Maybe someone more like George Bernard Shaw probably could have done more with this last scene.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, I think, because I think wild, actually. I mean, he's a very tactful writer in a lot of ways. And I think he knows how far he can poke fun at the moral conventions of his age where like maybe he thought, here I'm being a little bit too transgressive, maybe I should dial it back a bit or something. But that's, that's the impression it leaves with me.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, he really plays up the stereotype and maybe he's just hoping everybody's gonna laugh sort of on their own. See how ridiculous it is? But let me finish my thought though, about women's suffrage. So that was, that was one perspective. Women don't need to vote. They already have influence in the public sphere. Yeah, how they influence their husbands. And then over and against that, the suffragette movement, well, they took the angel in the house movement and they just ramped it up. And this was a clever argument. They said, well, if we have all this great spiritual influence, then we should just directly influence the nation. Let's Just cut out the middleman, let us vote. And some of the campaign slogans at the time for women's suffrage were things like, give women the vote and end war, because no woman would ever go to war, you see, like Queen Elizabeth.

[Thomas Banks]

Like Margaret Thatcher would never. Like if they're one of the Falklands.

[Angelina Stanford]

Exactly. Insert all female dictators. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's never been a Bloody Mary in history. What are you talking about? Only. Only men do that. But, see, that's good satire right there.

[Atlee Northmore]

But.

[Angelina Stanford]

But that. But. But a lot of this, like the woman's moral influence on the home, on the nation, on the world, that was very much a topic of conversation at the time that he's writing this, but I agree with you. I don't think he quite pulls it up. I don't think it's funny.

[Thomas Banks]

Here's something interesting. You see, opposition to women's suffrage on the part of. It's an interesting mix of political parties because there was a fear. I mean, depending on what country you're looking at, that all the women would become a prop for one party and, you know, basically drive the other out of business. So it's actually kind of interesting. In France, for instance, a lot of the resistance to women's suffrage comes from the more progressive political parties at the time, paradoxically, because it was feared that, well, women are, you know, on the whole, more religious than men. You know, in. In Catholic countries, this tends to be true, and therefore will probably just vote as the, you know, the Pope and their priests tell them to. That was actually a concern, which I find things like that kind of interesting.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, it is interesting because, of course, it goes the other way now. The assumption is that women will be more progressive and.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, that.

[Angelina Stanford]

And then when they sometimes don't vote that way, it shocks everybody. It shocks everyone that, yeah, women actually are different from one another and don't all vote exactly the same way, just like men. Shocking.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right. Anything else we want to say? I mean, I think. I thought the first three acts were really. Oh, yeah.

[Thomas Banks]

Amongst the strongest stuff that I think. I think she left it down.

[Angelina Stanford]

In the first three acts, you set the bar. And then. I didn't think. I didn't. Didn't think he quite delivered.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

We are almost never negative on this podcast.

[Thomas Banks]

It's really shocking. I think also this play, I have a feeling that it might. If he didn't also write the Importance of Being Earnest, this one might be one of those instances where it stood higher in people.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, so you think just because in comparison. Yeah.

[Thomas Banks]

Samuel Johnson remarked about Paradise Regained, John Milton's sequel to Paradise Lost, that in many ways it's actually a very strong poem, but because it's the sequel to Paradise Lost, everyone likes to take shots at it. And victim of. So these. So, yeah, these. I think you have similar characters, similar dramatic situations as you have in the Importance of Being Earnest. Similar kind of comic tone and light satire. And the superiority, I think, is. Yeah, the superiority of the. Of the later play to this one is, I think, pretty. Pretty easy to trace.

[Angelina Stanford]

Anyhow, enjoyed it.

[Thomas Banks]

I like it, though. I like it, though.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm glad we read it.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, I. I wanted to read this one again for a while, I think.

[Angelina Stanford]

I also thought that something more would be made of the letter, but it was just, you know, because you have. You have that Shakespearean, you know, mistaken thing. And he thinks it's. Robert thinks it's about him. And so he's like, oh, you do forgive me. And she's like, I do. And then later she's like, it wasn't actually.

[Thomas Banks]

It wasn't. It was for scoring. And then he's like, oh, well.

[Angelina Stanford]

And Lord goring says, well, Mrs. Cheveley tried to. She was going to use it to try to suggest something. And Robert's like, well, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. My wife is perfect and wonderful and she'd never go with you, you idiot. So, like, it just kind of. I don't know, fell flat, maybe. I was just.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

And for something a little.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, that was kind of a. Kind of a damp squib, I guess.

[Angelina Stanford]

But on the whole, though, what's that.

[Thomas Banks]

Metaphor is a damp squib, a firework that doesn't go off?

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, I don't.

[Thomas Banks]

I think that. I think it is perhaps. Yeah, perhaps.

[Angelina Stanford]

But on the whole, I did like it and it was very clever and I enjoyed it. I just. I was a little surprised by the fourth act. But that leads us, though, into talking about some of the decisions that the director made in the film version.

[Thomas Banks]

Yes, it does.

[Angelina Stanford]

I see there's a knock on the door. Loaf. What Light breaks from yonder podcast studio Atlee Northmore, is that you?

[Atlee Northmore]

Well, hello. I just thought I'd pop by and.

[Angelina Stanford]

Say hello, because these are the people in your neighborhood.

[Thomas Banks]

Are we going to introduce, like, some creepy puppets onto the podcast as well? Yeah, because he was joking before we.

[Angelina Stanford]

Recorded about being on Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Look for the helpers, children.

[Atlee Northmore]

And here's the Daniel Tiger section and the. The King. What's the king's name.

[Angelina Stanford]

I forget your little trolley. Ding, ding, ding. It's at Lee Northmore.

[Atlee Northmore]

There's this little postman coming by.

[Angelina Stanford]

Welcome to the podcast.

[Atlee Northmore]

Thank you. I miss being here. It's been a while.

[Angelina Stanford]

Star wars webinar.

[Atlee Northmore]

I am, too. The more I do research, the more fascinating I think the story of the prequels is. And hopefully people aren't going to throw rotten tomatoes at me for being positive about the prequels.

[Angelina Stanford]

But, no, I think you've had an excellent take for the prequel. Some of my students were joking, and someone asked me, how did they put it? Ms. Angelina, is Atlee going to redeem Jar Jar Binks? And I said, not if he wants to keep working for me.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, somebody asked me about that, and I. I said, talk about an impossible task. That's not. That's not gonna happen. We'll talk about Jar Jar, but not at any length, because it's a sore subject still.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, well. Well what? It's too soon, guys.

[Atlee Northmore]

It's too soon.

[Angelina Stanford]

Too soon. I actually saw that first one at the movies. Like, a lot of people was excited, went and got it, and I never go to the movie, so that was, like, a big deal.

[Atlee Northmore]

That is a big deal. It was. It was a huge hit until it wasn't. So. Yeah, everybody went to see it.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, everyone went to see it. Everyone spent money on it. And I've. I don't think I've met a single person who claims to like that film.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, I liked it, but I was four years old, so.

[Thomas Banks]

You're four years there was that.

[Angelina Stanford]

You were Jar Jar Binks, his prime target, right?

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, I was definitely who that. That one was made for. And I'm so sorry.

[Angelina Stanford]

I actually liked the third one, though.

[Atlee Northmore]

No. The third one? Yeah. Especially with all the. The Greek drama is.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, No, I like that a lot, so I'm looking forward to it. All right, well, speaking of movies, let's talk about some of the film versions of An Ideal Husband.

[Atlee Northmore]

Okay. I honestly thought there would be one or two. I don't know why I'm always surprised when we do this. And there's like 40. I think there are 18 or 19 screen versions.

[Angelina Stanford]

What?

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. Of An Ideal Husband versions.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. I mean, and they're from all. I don't think there's one. There might be one US based production, but they're all from the UK a lot. From Germany. I don't know.

[Thomas Banks]

There's a Soviet version from, like, 1975 or 1980. I'm trying to think, like, how do you have a communist version of an Oscar Wilde Victorian comedy where you have of English capitalist aristocrats as the. All the characters, basically you leave the servants, overthrow them. I don't know. Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Anyway, that Mrs. Chiltern is into. Right. I just went out to the local labor union.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, well, my favorite part was going through the 60s and seeing that they had in. There were three in succession from east and West Germany and that. I just thought that was so strange. Yeah, there was one in. There are a couple in Spain, I think one in Argentina. Yeah, One of its earliest ones were from Argentina, which I thought was funny with the. The canal scheme.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, that's.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, yeah. Hey, that's us guys.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, we got a shout out.

[Angelina Stanford]

We got a shout out.

[Thomas Banks]

That kind of reminds me of. I think it was. Hugh Laurie was on television a while ago and I guess he had. He was doing a stand up bit and made fun of the Belgians in some context, kind of poking a bit of fun at Belgium. And then when he visited Belgium, he had several Belgian people come up and thank him for doing this. Because no one ever mentions our country. And it's nice to know that like you and an internationally renowned comedian know who we are.

[Angelina Stanford]

So that is the age of like any publicity.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, that's really good to hear because I remember a few years ago, think there was something about Belgium mentioned on here and I, you know, I thought we were going to be canceled in Belgium, so that's, that's good to know.

[Thomas Banks]

No, no, we're huge in Belgium, man.

[Angelina Stanford]

Huge.

[Thomas Banks]

If you, if you know, you know. Yeah, yeah.

[Atlee Northmore]

So, yeah, I mean, as early as 1935 we have screen adaptations, but kind of the major ones and the ones that I was able to get my hands on were the 1947 with Paulette Goddard as Mrs. Cheveley, which was, I think was excellent casting considering her. Some real life drama that was going on back behind the scenes.

[Angelina Stanford]

Also right before she tried to be Scarlett O'Hara.

[Atlee Northmore]

I think it was after, because Scarlett O'Hara was 1939.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, but you just said 1935. 47.

[Atlee Northmore]

47, yes, yes. Oh, sorry, the first one. The first 1935, that was. That was also ger. So.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, no, I got you. Sorry, my bad.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, this is after. But actually Vivian Lee was set to play Mrs. Cheveley and then somehow Paulette Goddard, I guess. I guess got her revenge. Yeah, payback, rightfully so. Yeah. And so there was a 1969 version that you can watch online. It's this. It's Part of a BBC Play of the month. That was. It was okay. Any. Everything I watched was kind of just okay, except for the. The next one, which was the 1999 film version which we're going to talk about with Jeremy Northam and Cate Blanchett.

[Angelina Stanford]

And so I watched that when it came out. You too, right, Mr. Banks.

[Thomas Banks]

Yes.

[Angelina Stanford]

And you were like two.

[Atlee Northmore]

That was. That was. It was released on my fourth birthday.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, okay. So you're saying you didn't. You went to see Star wars instead. That's what you're telling your audience.

[Atlee Northmore]

I had to wait to see Star wars until it came out on tape.

[Thomas Banks]

That was a big moment for Oscar Wilde. I mean, I guess it was about the centenary of his death, since he died in 1900. But the Stephen Fry Oscar Wilde movie came out at that time. There was An Ideal Husband, then there was that by the same director, the Importance of Being Earnest, which came out like a year later.

[Angelina Stanford]

That in General, in the 90s, you have all of those Merchant Ivory films.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah.

[Thomas Banks]

There was a market for it.

[Angelina Stanford]

The market for a lot of period pieces, a lot of literary adaptations, drawing room comedies and got big name actors.

[Thomas Banks]

Yep.

[Atlee Northmore]

So it all stems from that. That 1995 Pride and Prejudice. It's still. I can. You can see the. The trajectory of it. Like as soon as that came out, it just exploded.

[Angelina Stanford]

And you guys should go listen to. We will link it below. But we had at Leon where we talked. We did a whole episode on different Pride and Prejudice film adaptations. So you're right. You're right. That. That 951 opened the door for all of. Suddenly people are interested in period pieces. Do you think that people are as interested now as they were?

[Atlee Northmore]

I think it's coming back. I think. You know, I've never seen Bridgerton. Yeah. Downton Abbey. Bridgerton is a big. I've never watched it. I don't care to watch it. But it's. And there's been kind of a resurgence with the 2005 Pride and Prejudice. Like things like that are starting to come back. So I. I don't think there'll be any good, but I think we're gonna see a kind of revival of period pieces like that.

[Thomas Banks]

We tried to watch the most recent Persuasion.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, Keyword is tried. We did not make it very.

[Thomas Banks]

Fifteen minutes in, I think. And then we were both throwing objects of.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. It's like Anne Elliott is something. Bridget Jones.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. Right.

[Angelina Stanford]

It was. Yes.

[Thomas Banks]

A lot of breaking the fourth wall.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. You guys are talking about the Dakota Johnson.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes. And it Was like, okay. Dakota Johnson played Anne Elliott like she was Jim from the office. Like, seriously, someone would say something. She just turned to the camera, raise her eyebrows, like, what is happening right now?

[Atlee Northmore]

I saw, I saw a review for that that said Dakota Johnson is miscast because she has a face. Face that she looks like she knows what email is.

[Thomas Banks]

That's actually kind of good. Yeah. Wow.

[Angelina Stanford]

Your face is hysterically inaccurate.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, no, that's true. Like certain people. Yeah, that's right. Gosh, that's, she just looks modern.

[Atlee Northmore]

She can't help it.

[Angelina Stanford]

I feel like that's a great Shakespeare line. Your face, madam, is a malaproprism.

[Atlee Northmore]

That'll show up on a magnet someday.

[Angelina Stanford]

It will. All right, go ahead, Go ahead.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, so we get the, we get the 1999 version directed by, written and directed by Oliver Parker. And he ended up doing Importance of Being Earnest, like you said. And he also did the early 2000s adaptation of the Picture of Dorian Gray, which I haven't seen, so I can't say if that's good or not, but it's not. It's not.

[Angelina Stanford]

We did see it. Colin Firth.

[Thomas Banks]

That was Colin Firth and whoever played Prince Caspian.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right, that guy.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yep, yep. Poor thing. Can't, can't catch a break. But yeah. So doing just briefly touching on the, the 1947 version, there was the only thing really exceptional about it was the behind the scenes drama that was going on. It apparently was not received well. It was made in England right after the end of World War II and it caught a lot of flack for its extravagant spending. And people were kind of not interested in seeing period dramas at that time.

[Angelina Stanford]

Not on message for the spirit of the nation.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yes, exactly. Paulette Goddard also apparently caused a lot of drama. She brought her own hairdresser from somewhere in Europe and that caused a union strike with the hair and makeup people who said that they could do their.

[Angelina Stanford]

Job just as well. I want you to write just the behind the scenes scenes of this because you got, you got everything. American starlet shows up to England during a time of national crisis and pulls a full. Megan Markle and the British public are upset. I, I, this is going to be a NETFLIX original.

[Atlee Northmore]

I would watch that over and over and over hard.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, exactly.

[Atlee Northmore]

I'm on.

[Thomas Banks]

It's kind of like a. Oh, the Marilyn Monroe thing. Yes, a little bit like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Atlee Northmore]

Another one I watch constantly.

[Angelina Stanford]

A fantastic film. We all like it.

[Atlee Northmore]

It was really great. Also, Michael Wilding was in it as Lord Goring. You know, he Was, you know, a good British actor married to Elizabeth Taylor for a little while.

[Angelina Stanford]

One of many.

[Atlee Northmore]

One of many. Yeah. I guess you can't really count him part of this.

[Angelina Stanford]

Actors known as Taylor's ex husbands.

[Atlee Northmore]

And then playing Mabel was. Oh, no, my screen's gone. Glynis Johns, you might know her from the Court Jester or as the mom in Mary Poppins.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, yes, of course.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yep. But I know Glynis Johnson.

[Thomas Banks]

I. I cannot think of another thing with Paulette Goddard. Am I just danced there.

[Atlee Northmore]

The women in 1939.

[Thomas Banks]

Of course. Yes. All right. Yes. Okay.

[Atlee Northmore]

And is it Modern Times with Charlie Chapel and her husband?

[Angelina Stanford]

Right.

[Atlee Northmore]

They were married for a little while.

[Thomas Banks]

And the stable of women who were.

[Atlee Northmore]

Sensing a theme here for this movie. Yeah, but, yeah, it was an okay adaptation. It. It stuck to the storyline pretty well. It changed a few things, but it just felt kind of stale, like it wasn't picking up the right tone for the play. You know, you can watch it if you want to, but I. You could skip it also. That's all I'll say about that one. And then you get to the 1969 version, also available to watch online. So this one was interesting because it was part of Play of the Month. Like I said before, it was a sort of special thing that BBC put out. And it is. It's shot more like a play. Like, you are more aware that it is on some kind of sound stage. And, you know, it's not supposed to be hyper realistic. Like probably the 1947 version was, so that they did a better job. The acting was a little better. Something I've noticed in other versions on the screen, there are weird age gaps between. Mainly between Cheveley and Goring. Like, Somehow she's like 20 years older than him. And, you know, you're led to believe they had a romance, you know, like a decade ago or however long it was. It just kind of. It didn't make sense to me. So that was. That was really my only beef with the 69 version. But it was decent. Like I said it was. It was basically like a. Like a play. And then I. So I watched four versions. There was a 2018.

[Thomas Banks]

You've seriously done your homework, by the way. I look foolish in hats, but if I wore hats, my hat would be off to you, so.

[Atlee Northmore]

Well, thank you. Yeah, I just, you know, any excuse to watch a movie is okay with me, but so I kind of watched. It was a filmed stage version of the play with an audience and everything. And so that was kind of my. My My base, my sort of palate cleanser to kind of, you know, get a sense of how it's actually supposed to be seen. And even that kind of, it didn't seem to pick up the right kind of light hearted tone in the right places. And it got laughs. But I, I don't think it, I don't think they were trying to get laughs. And so that was kind of uncomfortable and awkward, but it was, it was decently, decently acted. And the actor who played Sir Robert, he is actually the younger brother of the director of the 1999 movie. As complicated as that sounds, I don't know how that happened. But anyway, on to the 1999 version. So at this point Oliver Parker had adapted Othello for the, for the screen.

[Angelina Stanford]

Excellent.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, it did really well.

[Angelina Stanford]

Kenneth Brinna, Larry Fishburne.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. And so he, Oliver Parker used, he was a stage actor at one point and he also was a stand up comic. And so he was very, very in tune with the sort of plight of the performers or whatever. He was very, very conscious of making sure that the, there was some kind of actors support as a, as a director and that a lot of actors really love that obviously when a director knows what he's asking of them, what, what, what, what acting really is. So I think they got along really well doing this. But he says he, the reason he wanted to, he didn't want to do An Ideal Husband at all. He had to be kind of convinced to do it. And so he wanted, he said part of the reason he wanted to do it is, is to make sure he was stirring it a little bit. I don't know if, as far as an adaptation goes, I don't know if I agree with changing things and you know, just for the sake of changing things. But I think where he might have fallen short there, I think he still did an overall good job with this 99 film. So I didn't know one thing that.

[Thomas Banks]

Angelina and I were watching this the other night and it seemed he went out of his way to film it as much as possible to distract the audience from any knowledge they might have that this is based on a play. So certain scenes, for instance, he films in big public areas where there's lots of people milling around and there's nothing, nothing that would suggest a stage. Whereas, you know, the same scene in the play itself, there's maybe four people all together and they're in a drawing room somewhere. So like he does more outdoor scenes. I know in the movie, I mean there are no outdoor scenes at all in the play itself. So he seemed, I don't know, maybe self consciously untheatrical or determinately untheatrical.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, I think there's a tendency. This is the first, I think this is the first play that we've talked about that's been adapted into movies. So I don't think we.

[Angelina Stanford]

About the Importance of Being Earnest.

[Atlee Northmore]

Oh, I meant me. I don't think I was on that one.

[Angelina Stanford]

Were you not on that one?

[Atlee Northmore]

I don't think so.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay.

[Atlee Northmore]

No, carry on. Yeah, but you know, the, the nature of adapting anything is about kind of recognizing the, the limitations and the strengths of your, your medium. So like what, what can a, what can a film do that a play can't? And are you going to take advantage of that or are you just kind of going to kind of let it go to the wayside? But watching this movie, it was all about movement. Kind of like you were talking about. It was very fast cuts, fast editing, a lot of characters moving around, milling around, a lot of camera movement. It was just, it was just very high paced and just trying to. Yeah, like you said, just kind of trying to distract you from the fact that you're watching a play and you kind of forget like they're getting even getting dressed is, is really happening really fast. Dancing, walking, they're fencing for a little bit, posing for paintings, walking in the streets, going to see the plays.

[Thomas Banks]

Designer in the play. I will say the costume designer deserves high props. Yeah.

[Atlee Northmore]

Oh, absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah.

[Atlee Northmore]

If anything.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. It's visually distracting almost. Yeah. Just how gorgeous everything is.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. This was one of those movies where they had to have like real jewels, like, like real like diamond necklaces and things. And there were like guards off to the side, like kind of just hovering over everybody, making sure they were.

[Thomas Banks]

The actors didn't run off with any props.

[Atlee Northmore]

Right? Exactly.

[Thomas Banks]

Like actors are, want to do, as we all know.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. Actors take stuff from there. I'm like, are you not going to get in trouble for that? But yeah, a lot of the, A lot of the advantage taken with, with doing this film was in its, in its ability to show movement and something, something I really liked. I don't know how you guys feel about it, but the, the conversations, the speeches in the play are kind of spread out over what seems to be like longer periods of time in the movie. So you know, they might have the full conversation that happens in the play, but they're making it appear as though they're talking about this all night. They're talking about it. At the theater, they're talking about it while they're getting ready for bed. They're talking about it in the morning. It's all the same dialogue, but it's kind of spread out, so it makes it seem almost like a bigger deal. And instead of just like an instance of, you know, some small conversation. And I. I really like that.

[Thomas Banks]

Break scenes up a good bit. I noticed that.

[Angelina Stanford]

But I would. I would agree that that's the difference between a. The theatrical performance in a film.

[Thomas Banks]

Sure, yeah.

[Atlee Northmore]

I mean, you have. You have so much more available to you in a film than you would necessarily in. In a play. Like, if you're watching something and it's. There are a lot of quick cuts, you can't do that in. In a play. Like, if you're watching something happen and there's something kind of tangentially going on that you need to be aware of, you can't really do that very easily in a play where you can. In a movie. You just film it all together and then just intercut and kind of play around with it. And there's no. There's no, you know, there's no trouble that way.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, speaking of the scenes where they break up the speeches and we thought the scene in the theater, it was very, very well done that they're all. Instead of watching the play, they're all watching each other, spying on each other. It was very, very good.

[Thomas Banks]

We should remark that the play they're watching is the Importance of Being Earnest.

[Angelina Stanford]

And we both thought that was very close. I caught it before. I caught it before you did. As soon as we opened, I said, they're watching the Importance of Being Earnest. And so especially at the end when they have Oscar Wilde come out, I thought that was a really nice.

[Atlee Northmore]

That was. I really like that touch. That was. That was fantastic. And the guy who played Oscar Wilde, he did a great job for the five seconds he was on screen. But, yeah, if you haven't seen the movie, when they're in the theater, they're kind of looking out, using their eyeglasses to kind of look at each other instead of watching the play. And it kind of is able to put this pressure on the characters that they're always being watched. They're always in sort of the public eye. And that's another thing they did really well.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, yeah, you're right, exactly.

[Thomas Banks]

Wearing masks.

[Angelina Stanford]

Not just the actors on the stage, but the people in the audience are also performing.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, right. And even. I even noticed. So in. In the play when. When Mrs. Cheveley is. Is initially threatening to. To blackmail Robert there. It's all happening in one space, but in. In the film, again, they're. They're spreading it out a little more. They start out in his. In his study, in his office, and it's a very private sort of conversation. But the last half of their talk where he's kind of begging her not to do this and not to make him do this, they're having it while they're serving themselves dinner and they're out in front of, you know, the entire party. And it's sort of. It again, adds that kind of pressure and that kind of the. The threat of being ostracized from all the people. Like, you're kind of. You're kind of set against this backdrop of being just a constant reminder that, you know, this is a real situation, these are real people, and they're going to have to face consequences of, you know, public scandal.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's. That's. That's very interesting.

[Thomas Banks]

That's a good observation.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, that's very interesting. You know, I saw it in 99 and I. I saw the film before I had ever read the play, and my memory of it was that I liked it, but I actually did not know it was a comedy. Comedy.

[Thomas Banks]

Well, you didn't know it was a comedy.

[Angelina Stanford]

I didn't know. Yeah. So, like, we talked about this when we were watching the film, that the.

[Thomas Banks]

Film, some scenes are a little bit.

[Angelina Stanford]

Makes everything so much more serious than the play. So I've been listening to an audiobook version, which is a full cast dramatization. Very, very well done. Lots of big name actors. And I mean, the dialogue is zippy and boom. And it even has a laugh track. Okay. So, like, you're just very aware that this is funny. Everything's very light and funny. And the film honestly jarred me. When we put the film on, I was like, whoa. Just completely. Much more serious.

[Atlee Northmore]

It gets. Yeah, it gets very dark.

[Angelina Stanford]

It gets very dark. Much more serious. And then they play up all like the love scene stuff and the sexual attraction and all of that. And I just found that very. I'm gonna be honest, off putting because I just kept thinking this is not the spirit of the play. Trying to make the stakes be so real and trying to make it, like, sell to the audience why these, why you want to root for these relationships? Like, I felt like it just. It went in the direction of melodrama. Like, I'm not saying I didn't know it was a comedy in the sense that, like, I thought it Was a tragedy. Okay.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

I mean, I, watching the movie, I did not think this was a light hearted, witty, frivolous kind of story. Intentionally like satirical. It does not come off as a satire at all, I thought, in the film. And it comes off as a straight period piece love story. That's, that's how almost more like something.

[Thomas Banks]

Henry James would write.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, yes. And see, it's so funny that you're talking about the time and the movement. I mean, I see what you're saying and I don't disagree. At the same time, I felt like everything was vastly slowed down in the film.

[Atlee Northmore]

Oh, okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

And so like this, the conversations between Lord Gehring, Lord Goring and Mabel, which in, in the dramatized version I listen to, are just, just extremely, just popping, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, back and forth. And she's in and out of the room and zip, zip, zip.

[Thomas Banks]

More his girlfriend.

[Angelina Stanford]

And it's very. And it's, that's why I was kind of shocked that she turned out to be the love interest at the end because there's none of that in the play. It's just zip, zip, zip, boom, boom, boom. Like, you know, she's like a bee buzzing around and she gets a snarky comment out of him and then she's off. So to slow all that down and all the long smoldering stares between the two of them were that we're looking at each other, we're almost kissing, but we're not and burning up the page kind of stuff. I was like, what is, what is happening? This is not, this is not an Oscar Wilde play.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, I think I do agree with that to an extent. Only because. Yeah, no, I'm just trying to be very careful.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm curious, what are you gonna say? You can tell me I'm wrong.

[Atlee Northmore]

Only. Only because I've watched these other versions that were so deadpan, dramatic, the, the comedy was almost completely missed in the performances. So like, to, to see this and kind of feel the more light hearted parts of it, to me it's like, well, at least they.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, that's tried.

[Thomas Banks]

That's right.

[Angelina Stanford]

So I thought Rupert, ever as Lord Goring was fabulous.

[Atlee Northmore]

Oh yeah, he was fabulous.

[Thomas Banks]

He basically justified the existence of this.

[Angelina Stanford]

Correct.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. I didn't think any of the other actors had quite as much to do. I mean, maybe it's. That's the nature of the play itself.

[Angelina Stanford]

Most of the best lines, that actor Rupert Everett sold those lines as being frivolous. Like, yeah, he, he was good.

[Thomas Banks]

They were written for him.

[Angelina Stanford]

He Was really good. But like again, fantastic cast. Fantastic. I know.

[Thomas Banks]

That's such a good assembly.

[Angelina Stanford]

Cate Blanchett, Jeremy Nordstrom, all beautiful to watch on. On, you know, in period costume. I. I will say I didn't think none of their lines in the film played like they played on the page. You know, like, like they didn't. They didn't come off as light and frivolous. They all just seemed way too serious.

[Thomas Banks]

I will. Okay. I will say though, I think that Julianne Moore, the one American amongst a bunch of mostly all of those actors. Yeah, I thought, I thought she played an English woman credibly.

[Angelina Stanford]

She did.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. I thought she pulled that off.

[Angelina Stanford]

But she wasn't light hearted in the delivery of the line. None of them were like. It just. It was. I'm not saying it was a failure. It was a choice. The film made a choice. Right. And so even with. So let's even go back to Rupert Everett, who I think is just was fabulous and he was my favorite part of the whole film, just watching him. But they also gave him so many smoldering looks and kind of sexy lines. And none of that is in the play.

[Thomas Banks]

And you can be Lord Byron or you can be Bertie Wooster, but you.

[Atlee Northmore]

Can'T really be both at the same time.

[Angelina Stanford]

Right? That's exactly right. And so now, now it could be that they felt like in the play his ending up with Mabel is too abrupt. Maybe they felt like, you know, because I thought that. I thought it was too abrupt in the play. So maybe they felt like they needed to sell it to the audience and so they. They put an attraction there.

[Atlee Northmore]

That's. That's what I figured was going on. Because if you put it in a. In a movie and you just kind of make a surprise ending that you weren't necessarily expecting, people feel kind of cheated out of that. That. So I think that what they wanted to do was sort of plant the seeds a little more. And I think Rupert Everett, I think he was a huge selling point for this movie as far as. Like the marketing people went. Like, if you look at the poster for this movie, it's a picture of Rer Everett just surrounded by all the female characters. Like he's Don Juan or something like that. So it's kind of. I guess they want to put him more. They intercutting him in the movie constantly and you know, just making him a. Like even a larger presence and I think than he is in, in the play. At least you know, towards the beginning. I think it's more to kind of sell that smoldery, fiery, passionate kind of love story.

[Angelina Stanford]

I would be willing to accept that as fair. I would. At the same time, they played up so much the hot and spicy between him and Mrs. Cheveley in the movie. That disappearance in Act 4 was even more shocking in the film than it was in the play.

[Thomas Banks]

I'd agree there. Yeah.

[Atlee Northmore]

I don't know. I think they did. They sort of added her a little bit more in Act 3 of the movie. So when you're in a movie there are three acts and in a play there's three, four or five, it depends. Like this one was four. But they, they did add her like a little, nice little tail part in the end. It was kind of like she lives to scheme another day kind of thing. She leaves thinking that she's about to ruin their lives still because she sent the letter to Robert children to. From Gertrude to kind of cause strife in their marriage. And so she thinks she's like setting off a bomb.

[Angelina Stanford]

And that was another. That was another big difference plot wise. So they left out the brooch altogether. They left that out and her being a thief. So you never really know what it is that Lady Chiltern was objecting to. And the other thing was they. They changed the whole resolution of the play and they make her lie to her husband and then she admits she lied and then he can forgive her. And so then now they're on equal footing. They forgave each other, which is not at all the satire. That's a different kind of satire. So that was quite different. And also I think they played that last scene much more like you read it, where he wants to retire. In fact, in the film they do have him retire.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. Because he's not looking at her when he.

[Angelina Stanford]

When he declines stage directions specifically say, I'm going to find it. Sir Robert Chiltern is on the brink of accepting the Prime Minister's offer when he sees his wife looking at him with her clear, candid eyes. He then realizes that it is impossible. I cannot accept this offer, Lord Caversham. I have made up my mind to decline it. Yes. And so that's part of the satire is. Is it has to be clear that she's leading from behind. Right.

[Atlee Northmore]

She's right.

[Angelina Stanford]

She's controlling her husband with her influence.

[Atlee Northmore]

Right. Instead of kind of being reactionary or, you know, just kind of.

[Angelina Stanford]

I would say definitely in 1999, I did not understand that this was a satire. Like, it didn't play that way to me. Whereas the Importance of Being Earnest I Like, I got that the first time.

[Atlee Northmore]

Right. You know, from the. From the very start, you know, there's.

[Angelina Stanford]

A very, very different vibe between this film and. It's the same director, this film, the Importance of Being Earnest.

[Atlee Northmore]

Except this one was before, so he might have.

[Angelina Stanford]

So. But he. He obviously made the choice to play up all of that light humor stuff in. In that one as opposed to this one.

[Atlee Northmore]

And I. I can't necessarily.

[Thomas Banks]

I thought his. I thought his Importance of Being Earnest was all, on the whole, more successful. We really. He adds a musical bit in that, which is not in the original. But other than that, I don't think he had his. There were quite as many missteps. This one wasn't terrible. I thought this was fine in most respects.

[Angelina Stanford]

That is interesting what you say, though, Atlee, that in comparison to the ones that came before it, it was lighter and funnier.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah. And I can see where.

[Thomas Banks]

Was it Ibsen or something?

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes, exactly. The yellow wallpaper. Lady Chiltern is given a rest cure and loses her mind.

[Atlee Northmore]

I think if you're not reading this the right way, if you're not reading the play the right way, like. Like with you guys. Like, I personally might not have necessarily known that this was supposed to be a satire because, you know, you can possibly read those. Those serious parts as serious and not more.

[Thomas Banks]

And we're not surrounded by Victorianism anymore. So it's not as obvious, it's not as immediately obvious to us as it would have been to this play's original audience.

[Angelina Stanford]

And I think we have a view of the past that is so faulty in its lens that when we hear these over the top lines about a woman's life is not as important as a man, we think, oh, yeah, that's just how they thought. That's just what they thought back then. They're not realizing this is obviously, I mean, not. Not just satire, but almost like a lampoon, a spoof, just like over. Just really over the top.

[Atlee Northmore]

Well, if you had a character say things like that today, it would. It would be taken as, you know, they were the villain and like, they wouldn't. It wouldn't be. There would be no way that that would be taken.

[Angelina Stanford]

Look at Lady Chilton internalizing Lord Goring's misogyny saw in this way.

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, I think. I think on the whole, as compared to the other more serious, kind of almost lackluster versions, I think. I think this 1999 version kind of stands. Stands out.

[Thomas Banks]

I want to check out that East German version, though.

[Atlee Northmore]

I do too. There's There was a. I don't know why they did it, but there was another version made either in 1999 or 2000. It was. I think it was a major release. And it was James Will Be as Robert Chiltern, and it apparently bombed. And I want to see why it bombed and why it didn't do so well.

[Angelina Stanford]

What year?

[Atlee Northmore]

1999 or 2000.

[Thomas Banks]

Like the same year as this one?

[Atlee Northmore]

Yeah, it was, oddly.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, I never heard of it.

[Atlee Northmore]

Probably for good reason.

[Thomas Banks]

Every once in a while, there's that odd pair of movies which are about, like, the same subject or set in roughly the same time that come out simultaneously and one buries the other.

[Atlee Northmore]

Ants in a Bug's Life.

[Thomas Banks]

Okay, I was gonna say. I was gonna say Braveheart and Rob Roy.

[Atlee Northmore]

Oh, yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Saving Private Ryan and the Thin Red Line.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, like, actually, the Thin Red Line, I think, is a better movie than Saving Private Ryan. I think Rob Roy is much better than Braveheart, but. I know. But again, we're in the minority here.

[Angelina Stanford]

Team Rob Roy.

[Thomas Banks]

Final thoughts, at least, but your authority here is always welcome.

[Atlee Northmore]

Oh, I don't know if I have authority. I don't know. I think, like I said, I think in general, it just. It just. It was lighter. It was more comedic, even if it got the satire part of it wrong. Does it make it a good adaptation? Probably not, if you're trying to focus on kind of what you guys are talking about, where you're, you know, talking about the Victorian didacticism and poking through. What did you say? The veneer of respectability. I don't think it hits where it's supposed to hit as sort of a accompaniment to the original play. I think it was a fun movie.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, agreed.

[Atlee Northmore]

It was a lot of fun.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's our feeling, too, I think.

[Thomas Banks]

Just the lavish beauty and the step decorations. I think that. That those sort of things go very.

[Angelina Stanford]

Small to two people who are huge suckers for a period drama. Okay.

[Atlee Northmore]

Like, absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

You know, we. We don't regret that we immerse ourselves in gorgeous imagery and costumes and, I mean, we live in an 1895 house. This is an 1895 play. It was set in 1895. So the whole time we're like, oh, look at that face. That would look great in our living room. Like, no, we were looking at it for, like, decorating tips. So we. I mean, we enjoyed it. We're not sorry we watched it. We just, like, yeah, it is fun.

[Atlee Northmore]

If you want to. If you want to go. And, you know, some of these are on YouTube, if you want to watch them. And kind of. It's fun to watch the costumes, how different they are from each other, like, over the decades, like the 60s. Everybody's in, like, bright, garish pink and yellow, like, very. It just feels like Summer of Love. Yeah. Kind of flower child kind of. Kind of costumes.

[Angelina Stanford]

As much as Goring in his sexual.

[Atlee Northmore]

Revolution, periods, beads, all his button holes are like, just give.

[Angelina Stanford]

Give peace a chance. Maybe.

[Thomas Banks]

I can imagine Lord Goring, like, refusing to get out of bed ostentatiously, like the John Lennon the love in at a luxury hotel.

[Angelina Stanford]

That is Lord Goring right there. We're protesting poverty. When's room service getting here?

[Atlee Northmore]

Oh, gosh. But it. It is fun to. It is fun to compare and contrast. And, you know, I think if I wouldn't have watched the other ones, I would have kind of been more in your camp, where it just kind of missed the mark in a lot of places. But compared to the others, it was just.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot. Well, Mr. Banks, any final thoughts from you?

[Thomas Banks]

No, I mean, other than. Other than those I've already shared. Yeah, I. I'm always happy to revisit Oscar Wilde. And it's been. It's been four years, five years, perhaps. That was one of the first things we did together, I think.

[Angelina Stanford]

Has it really been that long? Were you really not working for us Atlee, when we did it?

[Atlee Northmore]

I don't think so.

[Thomas Banks]

It was. It was in the beat. I think it was right before era of how. Before Athlean.

[Atlee Northmore]

You're trying to remember a time before me, aren't you?

[Angelina Stanford]

Ah, there isn't a time before. Always have. You've always.

[Thomas Banks]

How do we survive without Atlee for a couple of years?

[Angelina Stanford]

Not surviving at all. Atley, thank you so much for coming on today. It is always a pleasure to talk about film with you.

[Atlee Northmore]

Thank you for having me.

[Angelina Stanford]

You guys at home should definitely go sign up HouseOfHumaneLetters.com for at least Star wars webinar. I think my final thought is I'm always glad when we can revisit these kinds of things so we can continue to teach about different genres, different time periods, understanding more of the context. I personally am most gratified when I hear feedback like, okay, now I understand all these other books, because that's really the point. This is, you know, this podcast, just like it says in the opening, is an, you know, ever growing conversation. It's an ongoing conversation. So it's never just like we're just talking about this book. Always. We're trying to introduce you to the world of literature. And and so I, I, you know, I'm glad we did this series. I enjoyed it, I enjoyed the play. I mean to say that it's not the masterpieces other one. I mean that's like when we sit around here and go, well, I don't think that this Shakespeare play is quite as good as this other Shakespeare play. I mean it's still better than everything else. So it's still fantast. I'm, and I'm glad and I'm not sorry we watched the film. It was beautiful film and I enjoyed it. So yeah, I'm glad and thanks, thanks you guys for listening. And next week we have a special treat for you. Cindy Rollins will be back. Ah, pause to hear the cheers. Yes, Cindy will be back.

[Thomas Banks]

The Return of the Queen.

[Angelina Stanford]

The return of the Queen, exactly. All hail Cindy. And she'll be back for our episode Our literary lives of 2025. So we'll be able to catch up with her, find out what she's been reading, find out what we've been reading and just kind of sum up our year. It is almost over December 2024. We are nearing the end. And so thanks as always for going on this literary journey with us, for letting us be a part of your literary life. A huge shout out to our Patreon, who is just amazing. You guys are amazing. You blow me away. It doesn't seem to matter how obscure the reference is. If we make it, you run out by the book and read it. You guys are just an amazing inspiration to me about what it means to have a literary life. And watching you guys grow in your understanding and just really grow as people, as you immerse yourselves more and more in the literary life, it is a wonderful thing to be to have a front row seat to that. So thank you all for being a part of this with us. And you too can join that amazing community if you Join our Patreon patreon.com the Literary Life Stick around to the end of this episode. Mr. Banks will have a special poem for you. And until next time, keep crafting your literary life because stories will save the world. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Literary Life podcast brought to you by our loyal patreon sponsors. Visit HouseOfHumaneLetters.com to find Angelina and Thomas and to sign up for our newsletter with podcast schedules and more. And keep up with [e-mail] Join the Conversation at our member only Patreon forum or our Facebook discussion group. Visit patreon.com thelittle literary life to find out how you can sponsor this podcast and get great bonus content. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review, and check out our sister podcasts, the New Mason Jar and the well Read Poem. And now for a poem read by poet Thomas Banks.

[Thomas Banks]

A selection from the angel in the House by Coventry Patmore. Lo, loves obeyed by all. Tis right that all should know what they obey, lest erring conscience damp delight and folly laugh our joys away. Thou primal love, who grantest wings and voices to the woodland birds, grant me the power of saying things too simple and too sweet for words.