Episode 278: The Literary Life of Natalia Testa

Summary

The Literary Life Podcast: Episode 278 – The Literary Life of Natalia Testa

Hosts: Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks
Guest: Natalia Testa
Release Date: May 27, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 278 of The Literary Life Podcast, hosts Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks welcome a very special guest, Natalia Testa—a high school student and avid reader—to delve into her unique literary journey. This episode is part of the ongoing series “The Literary Life of,” which aims to highlight diverse readers at various stages of their lives, emphasizing that the literary life is multifaceted and evolves over time.

Summer Classes Overview

Before diving into Natalia’s literary life, the hosts briefly discuss upcoming summer classes:

• Karita Thompson’s Webinar: Nature, Myth and the Musical Imagination starting June 3rd, exploring how music narrates stories and engages imagination.

• Angelina’s Harry Potter Series: Continuing with books four and five during the last two weeks of June, focusing on how the series serves as a gateway to the literary tradition.

• Thomas Banks’s Victorian Lives Lecture Series: Six lectures on five Victorian figures, including Benjamin Disraeli, George Eliot, Florence Nightingale, General Gordon, and Karl Marx, scheduled from June 30 through July 8.

• Dr. Baxter’s Poetry Class: How to Read a Poem like C.S. Lewis and Fall in Love with Poetry in July, aimed at understanding lyric poetry through C.S. Lewis’s favorite poems.

Natalia expresses excitement about all the upcoming classes, showcasing her eagerness to engage in diverse literary explorations.

Commonplace Quotes Segment

The episode features a special segment where each participant shares a favorite literary quote:

• Thomas Banks shares a quote about Queen Victoria's limited education and her strategy to avoid exposing her knowledge gaps during conversations. (Timestamp: 08:25)

• Angelina Stanford presents a quote from Dorothy Sayers' Strong Poison: “Women geniuses don't get coddled, so they learn not to expect it.”

• Natalia Testa offers her favorite quote from Dorothy Sayers' The Mind of the Maker: “As soon as the mind of the maker has been made manifest in a work, a way of communication is established between other minds and his.”

These quotes set the tone for the episode, highlighting the intersection of intellectual rigor and literary appreciation.

Early Life and Reading Beginnings

Natalia recounts her early exposure to books, emphasizing that books were a constant presence in her household. Her first memorable book was The Owl and the Pussycat board book, read repeatedly by her mother until memorized. At around five years old, Natalia received her first library card and delved into a variety of books, from Mary Pope Osborne’s Odyssey for Children to the Magic Treehouse series, which ignited her passion for historical settings like Pompeii and ancient Greece.

Natalia’s early fascination with classical languages and mythology is evident, laying a strong foundation for her future literary interests.

Discovery of Dorothy Sayers and the Lord Peter Series

At eleven, Natalia’s literary journey took a pivotal turn when she discovered Dorothy Sayers through her desire to read a murder mystery. Her mother introduced her to Sayers’ Strong Poison, leading Natalia to become enamored with the Lord Peter series. She highlights the complexity and literary depth of Sayers' work, particularly appreciating Lord Peter’s character—his wit, literary references, and the seamless blend of humor with intricate mysteries.

Natalia shares, “I loved Lord Peter. He could detect, but he was also incredibly well-read and fun,” illustrating her deep connection with the character and the series.

Engagement with House of Humane Letters (HHL) Classes

Natalia’s relationship with HHL began through her mother’s discovery of the podcast in 2019. Initially a passive listener, Natalia became an active participant after her interest was piqued by episodes on Gaudy Night and Enchanted April. Her enthusiasm led her to enroll in HHL’s offerings, where she excelled academically and became instrumental in launching the student-run journal, the Scriptorium.

Angelina praises Natalia’s contributions, stating, “Watching you guys blossom... has just been so amazing,” highlighting Natalia’s role in fostering a vibrant literary community within HHL.

The Scriptorium: A Student-Run Journal

Natalia discusses her involvement in the Scriptorium, emphasizing its role as a platform for students to express diverse ideas through essays, poetry, and creative writing. She describes the journal as a reflection of the student body’s breadth of interests, ranging from Boethius to modern authors like Terry Pratchett.

Thomas Banks adds, “There’s everything from Boethius to Harry Potter,” underscoring the journal’s inclusive and expansive nature. Angelina echoes this sentiment, noting the sophisticated quality of the submissions despite the absence of formal writing programs.

Overcoming Reading Slumps

Both hosts and Natalia address the common challenge of reading slumps. Natalia explains that she often combats slumps by revisiting beloved books or starting new, familiar favorites to rekindle her reading habit. She mentions rereading Enchanted April and The Duchess of Malfi as strategies to regain momentum.

Angelina relates, “I try to give myself something really familiar and comforting... like a children’s classic,” emphasizing the importance of returning to known favorites to maintain a steady reading routine.

Evolution of Reading Interests

Natalia shares her evolving literary tastes, noting a growing appreciation for biographies. Initially indifferent, she began reading biographies after listening to recommendations from classmates. This shift allowed her to explore the lives and contexts of her favorite authors, deepening her understanding and appreciation for their works.

Angelina reflects on her own late start with Sayers’ biographies, highlighting how personal connections to authors enhance the reading experience. Natalia concurs, expressing a “deep kindredness” with Dorothy Sayers through her biographical studies.

Final Thoughts and Encouragement

In a heartfelt conclusion, Natalia offers encouragement to younger readers and homeschooling parents. She advises, “Just keep reading. If you don’t understand it, just keep going,” advocating for persistence and the intrinsic value of engaging with challenging texts.

Angelina reinforces this message, emphasizing that children capable of handling complex literature often surprise their parents with their resilience and capacity for deep understanding. She notes, “Parents of good book students have a lot easier time with that because they see how... they blossom.”

Closing Reflections

The episode closes with reflections on the community fostered by HHL, particularly during the House of Humane Letters Family Summer Camp. Natalia describes it as “the best week of my life,” highlighting the camaraderie and shared literary passion that define the HHL experience.

Angelina and Thomas commend Natalia’s dedication and insightful contributions, expressing their pride and excitement for her future endeavors, including her upcoming trip to Italy through Hillsdale’s summer program.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Banks [08:25]: “She did not like to be left too long in conversation with a single individual in case the gaps in what she knew became obvious.”

• Angelina Stanford [11:43]: “Women geniuses don't get coddled, so they learn not to expect it.”

• Natalia Testa [12:15]: “As soon as the mind of the maker has been made manifest in a work, a way of communication is established between other minds and his.”

• Natalia Testa [75:20]: “I think the familiar familiarity really helps.”

• Angelina Stanford [75:47]: “It's about what you love, what you have taken into yourself, what has become yours.”

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Conclusion

Episode 278 of The Literary Life Podcast offers an inspiring glimpse into Natalia Testa’s rich and dynamic literary life. Her passion for classic literature, combined with her active engagement in the House of Humane Letters community, exemplifies the transformative power of a nurturing and intellectually stimulating educational environment. Through her journey, listeners are reminded of the joys of reading, the importance of persistence, and the profound connections that literature can forge across generations.

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Note: This summary captures the essence of Episode 278, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable quotes to provide a comprehensive overview for those who haven’t listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Angelina Stanford]

This is not just another book chat podcast. Lifelong reader Cindy Rollins joins teachers Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks for an ongoing conversation about the science, skill and art of reading. Well, explore the lost intellectual tradition and discover how to fully enter into the great works of literature. Learn what books mean while delighting in the sheer joy of imagination. Each week, we will rescue story from the ivory tower and bring it to your couch, your kitchen, and your commute. The Literary life is for everyone because in the words of Stratford Caldecott, to be enchanted by story is to be granted a deeper insight into reality. Join us for an ever unfolding discussion of how stories will save the world. This is the Literary Life Podcast. Hello and welcome. Welcome to the Literary Life Podcast. I'm Angelina Stanford, and here with me is the man formerly known as the mysterious Mr. Banks.

[Thomas Banks]

Yes. Yes, indeed.

[Angelina Stanford]

I just feel like you're less mysterious right now.

[Thomas Banks]

I know, I know. Dully predictable.

[Angelina Stanford]

We've been living together so long, and.

[Thomas Banks]

Now you're just, you know all my ways.

[Angelina Stanford]

You're just less.

[Thomas Banks]

The audience knows all my ways.

[Angelina Stanford]

It's true.

[Thomas Banks]

I know.

[Angelina Stanford]

You're basically the transparent Mr. Banks.

[Thomas Banks]

What a disappointment.

[Angelina Stanford]

I know. This is where I have to say, oh, also, we're married, because here is going to come the angry fan mail. What do you mean you live with him? I do. He is my lawfully wedded husband.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, sorry for any misunderstandings on that score.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, well, today we've got a very special episode for you guys. We have another in our series, the Literary Life of. And the Thinking behind that series, when I, when I started it many, many years ago now, was to highlight different readers in different seasons of their lives at different ages, different walks of life. Just really trying to get across the idea that there is no one literary life. It's going to look different for different people. It's even going to look different for the same people in different parts of their lives. And while we have highlighted all different kinds of people, we have actually never highlighted someone who was still in high school. This. This is a first. And Mr. Banks and I did not hesitate. We both knew we really wanted to have this student on the air. She is a very special student to both of us. And so, please welcome to the podcast, Ms. Natalia Testa. Natalia, hello. Welcome. Hello.

[Natalia Testa]

Thank you for having me here.

[Angelina Stanford]

You are very welcome. We are so excited to hear all about your literary life. But before we get started with that, we're going to talk about, just briefly, what we've got going on with our summer class. So let's See, we have. Starting in just a couple weeks. Yeah. June 3rd, we've got Karita Thompson's webinar, Nature, Myth and the Musical Imagination. So she is continuing. Well, I don't want to necessarily call it a series on music because they're all standalone, but she is continuing to lead us thematically.

[Thomas Banks]

Unified.

[Angelina Stanford]

Thematic. There you go. Thank you, dear. She's continuing to explain to us the way music works and the way in which music tells a story. And that's something that I think has been just woefully misunderstood about music in the modern period. It does, in fact, tell a story, it does, in fact, engage our imagination, and it in fact, is built on the building blocks of stories. And so she's going to take us through all of that in her very next webinar. So that's June 3rd, and everything we do is live or later. I've got back, by popular demand, I will be continuing with my series on Harry Potter, gateway to the literary tradition. And we will be covering books four and five this time. And this is going to be in the last two weeks of June. Six classes the last two weeks of June, so you're definitely going to want to check that out. Mr. Banks, you want to briefly say what you've got coming up.

[Thomas Banks]

Yes, I'm doing a series of lectures, six lectures altogether, on five Victorian lives, drawn from a wide array of experience and background. Benjamin Disraeli, who was a man of letters, bon vivant and Prime Minister.

[Angelina Stanford]

Most importantly, what does one have to do to get the title bon vivant? And can I apply?

[Thomas Banks]

You have to dress like Benjamin Disraeli, I think, if you like, as a young man, he was. He was like very much the fop and the dandy and really a kind of wild eccentric traveler, raconteur. And he became Prime Minister then halfway there.

[Angelina Stanford]

I wouldn't say I'm a wild eccentric, but I'm getting there.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, yeah, we'll work on that. Yeah, absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

Hashtag goals.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, exactly.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm not a bon vivant.

[Thomas Banks]

And George Eliot, author of Silas Marner. She's very respectable. She's more. I think she's more what we think of when we think of the Victorians. Florence Nightingale, the social reformer and also the famous nurse and humanitarian, the soldier General Gordon, and the iconoclast and professional revolutionary, Karl Marx, who's. I won't say a respectable Victorian, but he did live during that period. He was.

[Angelina Stanford]

Was he a bon vivant? I'm just joking. Yeah.

[Thomas Banks]

The life of the party. Karl Marx. Absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, it's hard to imagine him at a party. Like, I can just imagine he would be there. He'd just be like, I'm sorry, has the working class been appraised with these hors d' oeuvres?

[Thomas Banks]

He did enjoy keeping late hours at the pub with his drinking buddies, but believe it or not, I mean, you don't really think of him as being like, you know, the guy who's buying everyone a round of drinks. But, yeah, he was popular in the pub. Always good for that.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, I can see it. All right. And so that is coming up. See, that is going to be on weekdays, June 30 through July 8. And we've got one other thing coming up this summer. Dr. Baxter is back with another summer class. This one's very special. It's called how to Read a poem like C.S. lewis and Fall in Love with Poetry. So he is going to be basing this class by looking at C.S. lewis's favorite poems and helping us to understand what he loved about them and therefore, what we can all love about them. And I'm excited about this class for a number of reasons. One, we've had a lot of requests for classes, classes on lyric poetry and how to understand that better. I think it's a little easier to understand how you enter a narrative poem because it's telling a story, but what do you do with a lyric poem? So I think this is going to really hit the spot. And this is going to be on Mondays in July, so you can find out about Koregia's webinar. My class, Mr. Banks's mini class. Dr. Baxter's mini class at our website, HouseOfHumaneLetters.com click on the webinar Mini Class tab and it will give you all the information you need to find out about that. And again, it's all live or later. So even if you can't make the live sessions, you have the recordings to watch as you wish. All right, Natalia, not to put any pressure on you, but which of these classes are you looking forward to?

[Natalia Testa]

All of them.

[Thomas Banks]

Wonderfully diplomatic.

[Angelina Stanford]

What's that?

[Natalia Testa]

I can't choose.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's perfect. Perfect. I promised to Natalia, guys that this would not be a gotcha episode. So at no point am I going to just look at her very seriously. And so no pressure, but which one of us is your favorite teacher? Like, I. I won't. I won't. See, she'll. She's shaking her head no. She just will refuse. She's. She. See all the wisdom she's Learned as our student. She knows that. She would simply just say, I, I, I can't decide both of you. I love each of you equally, or some other lame thing that I would not believe.

[Natalia Testa]

There is no correct answer.

[Angelina Stanford]

There is no. This is correct. There is no. There is no correct answer. All right. Well, now I guess we should officially start this off with our commonplace quotes. Mr. Banks, would you like to get us started with your commonplace quote?

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. Mine is from a book about Queen Victoria that I just finished. The author is Roger Fulford, who wrote a number of books about Regency and mid century, mid 19th century figures. And he's talking about how Queen Victoria's sort of lack of education. I mean, she was a practically intelligent woman, but kind of had the limited. Her education mainly consisted of, you know, the limited set of accomplishments that a woman was supposed to have. So she learned how to knit, she spoke French reasonably well. Almost nothing in the way of mathematics, some literature, but not too much. Again. And she was very self conscious about this. She was intelligent enough to know what she didn't know, and she was good at guarding it. So he says she did not like to be left too long in conversation with a single individual in case the gaps in what she knew became obvious. Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay. This is really reminiscent to me of the episodes on the Crown we watched where Queen Elizabeth the Second actually still kind of feeling and being very nervous when she had to meet world leaders.

[Thomas Banks]

That I received this kind of parochial education, and yet I'm a world figure and the head of a nation, and.

[Angelina Stanford]

Then how am I going to engage with these people?

[Thomas Banks]

Victoria, when she was going to formal events with her husband, the prince consort Albert, she would sometimes give him beforehand the directive that if you see me get cornered by anyone, make an excuse to lead me to a different part of the room so I can talk with someone else and, like, you know, set your watch and that kind of. He was evidently very good at, like, uncornering her.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay.

[Thomas Banks]

I would.

[Angelina Stanford]

This arrangement with you.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

Let's work out, like, a secret wink or I touch my nose.

[Thomas Banks]

Sure, sure.

[Angelina Stanford]

Or just yell something really.

[Thomas Banks]

Something really subtle.

[Natalia Testa]

I'm just yelling, help, help.

[Angelina Stanford]

And you can come over and that could be my job. Oh, something. I'd love to.

[Thomas Banks]

You should talk to this person over here.

[Angelina Stanford]

Give me a segue out of me, just yelling, help. Randomly say, pardon me, my wife.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, your dress is on fire. Some. Something like that.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. All right, I'm gonna go next. Natalia, we're gonna let you go last. This is my commonplace Quote. And I picked it out especially for you today because our listeners are going to find out that Natalia and I share a great, great love of Dorothy Sayers. And this is a quote I will actually show you. Those of you at home are going to have to imagine because you can't see this, but I'm going to show Natalia. This is a index card, okay. Where this quote is written on and it is placed in my office. I have my favorite quotes. I don't just have a commonplace book, but I. I have my favorite quotes on index cards put around my office in different places. It's my version of the inspirational stir. So you're going to recognize this quote, Natalia, and you're going to know exactly why it has a place on my beloved, you know, section of. Of quotes. This is a quote from Dorothy Sayers novel, Strong Poison. Women geniuses don't get coddled, so they learn not to expect it. She's nodding enthusiastically. You're doing just like Mr. Banks. You. You have to nod by saying, yes. Yes. You know, you can't just. No. Silent. We're not a silent.

[Natalia Testa]

I know. This is gonna happen.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, we're a talkie. The literary life is a talkie. So you have to talk. I love this quote. All right, Natalia, did you bring a quote to share with us?

[Natalia Testa]

I did. I did indeed. My quote is from Dorothy Sayers, the mind of the maker, which you guys did on the podcast, and I just read it. She says, as soon as the mind of the maker has been made manifest in a work, a way of communication is established between other minds and his.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, that's very good. I thought that was her most difficult book by far.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes.

[Thomas Banks]

Of the ones. And I haven't read everything, but I. Of the ones I have read. That's definitely on a different. Different level. A Himalayan book.

[Angelina Stanford]

Exactly so. Exactly so. You know, I don't have a bio. A bio of you in front of me, Natalia. I thought I could wing it. We'll see. We'll see. But Natalia is a rising junior from the great state of Texas. You're from the Woodlands, Texas. Right. Which I, being a southern girl in Louisiana, know it's the Woodlands and not Woodlands, so there you go. Natalia has a great interest in classical language, where she has been an outstanding student. You've won some medals in the national language exam as well, right? Silver medalist, gold medalist.

[Thomas Banks]

National Latin. Did I call it national language exam?

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes. National Latin examination. Yes. Yes. Oh, that's those medals behind you. Okay. Very nice. Yes. So you are. Are you A silver medalist. Gold. Did I get that?

[Natalia Testa]

Believe. I am a silver medalist in the National Latin exam.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay. Still outstanding work. You're going to be in Mr. Banks's Latin 3 class this coming year. We're very excited about that. You are an athlete. Yes. You're a competitive swimmer.

[Natalia Testa]

Indeed. Yes.

[Angelina Stanford]

You have all kinds of accolades and accomplishments which we could, you know, embarrass you by. By. By listing. But most recently, and we're just beyond excited about this, most recently, you were accepted into Hillsdale's summer program to go to Italy.

[Natalia Testa]

Yes, that was. It's very exciting. I'm very excited to go and see all the places I've learned and read about, especially in Mr. Banks's nation's classes.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, we are so happy for you. And weren't there like 300 applicants for.

[Natalia Testa]

That and over 300. Yeah, over 300 applicants. And I actually submitted mine a little on the later side, so I wasn't exceptionally expecting to get in, but.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, that speaks.

[Thomas Banks]

But they chose well.

[Angelina Stanford]

They did. I think they chose very well.

[Thomas Banks]

Can I ask, do you know on the agenda in Italy, what's what, cities or towns specifically, you're going to be.

[Natalia Testa]

Visiting Rome, Pompeii, Lawrence and Venice.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, wonderful. That's a great mixture of regions, too. You could see both the north and the south and the center, too. Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh. Oh, we're so excited for you. That's gonna be absolutely.

[Thomas Banks]

That's wonderful.

[Angelina Stanford]

Just. Just fantastic.

[Thomas Banks]

Can you cram us into your carry on bag, by any chance?

[Natalia Testa]

I think we're trying.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, right.

[Angelina Stanford]

I want some volcanic ash. If you could just like Ziploc bag full of that and just bring it back, I would. I would really appreciate that now. Oh, there's. There's so many. My brain's going in too many different directions at once here. Y' all are going to find out today that I referred to. I have been calling you. Well, how many years ago was it that you were in good books? Do you recall? I was trying to remember. It's been a while.

[Natalia Testa]

I think it's almost three years now.

[Angelina Stanford]

Since I first met Natalia. And we will tell the story of this in just a few minutes. But since I first met Natalia, I have been calling her my mini Me. And so I am so excited to introduce her to our audience. So she's just delightful. Y' all gonna love her. But one of the reasons I called you my mini Me was because we share such an intense love of Dorothy Sayers, and you're kind of the research queen of the HHL student body. I think I can say that with some confidence. And one of the things you're doing this summer, in addition to going to Italy, is you are going to the Wade center, and you're going to put your hands on some Dorothy Sayers manuscripts. Tell us about that.

[Natalia Testa]

Yes, actually, when this airs, I will be with that group. It'll be a couple days before I'm going to the Wade. So several days from now. But, yes, I'll be going to the Wade center, and I'm going to get into a mode, and I'm not going to come out of that mode. They're going to have to drag me away. But the Wade center has the largest collection of Dorothy Sayers manuscripts in the world, and there's too much to see in too little time. But.

[Angelina Stanford]

But, oh, just what a treat. I cannot wait to hear everything about your trip to that. And one more thing, really, before we start hearing your literary life is. I heard rumors. I heard rumors that at the end of the school year, you and your fellow House of Humane Letters got onto zoom, dressed in black and mourned the end of the school year. Is this true?

[Natalia Testa]

Yes. This is a new tradition we have. We all each bring a mournful poem and share favorite memories and mourn the loss of the school year.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, I. I love our students so much. And people listening at home know these are not just super weird. I mean, they are kind of weird, but they're not. They're just regular kids who just love. Love our community here and love the classes and love what we're learning. And it's in every single class I teach the students. No, no, Ms. Angelina, we don't want to break for summer. No, no, no. Let's get rid of Summ. And so now you have this. This funeral ritual for the death of the school year. But then I heard y' all will also the second half y' all spent talking about which summer classes you're gonna take. So. Yeah, we're just the luckiest people in the world that we have students so eager to learn.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, yes, indeed.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, then let us start. We're gonna. We're gonna start with your birth. Were you reading books in the womb now? I'm just kidding. But. So let's start with what was your early life look like with books? Did you. Were you born into a family of readers? Yes or no? Tell us about that.

[Natalia Testa]

I really don't remember a time where there weren't books around and I wasn't fascinated with them. Older than I can Remember, there's pictures of me with books. I don't know. There were always books in the house. My very first memories of a book are actually. And this will come into the journey later, but my first book. And it was a book that my mom read to me over and over again so many times that she ended up memorizing it. And we still have it, but it was the Owl and the Pussycat with the Jambrett illustrations, and we had it as a board book.

[Angelina Stanford]

Now, you're the oldest, right?

[Natalia Testa]

I am.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay. So there was always books. This is very much like. Like, my upbringing. Just always books. And you always were fascinated with them. And you don't remember a time when you were. Now, were you always homeschooled?

[Natalia Testa]

Yes, I've always been homeschooled. I've always been at home.

[Angelina Stanford]

Do you remember learning to read.

[Natalia Testa]

A little? Not enough that there's really substantial. I don't remember, like, really struggling. Like, I know that I did, but I remember wanting to read desperately and, like, being only able to, like, read the pictures and being embarrassed about that. Like, I want to learn to read. And I was 3,4ish when I learned to read. And once it clicked, I never really stopped.

[Angelina Stanford]

Do you have any memories? Like, all of my kids walked around with books pretending they could read before they could read. Was that you, too?

[Natalia Testa]

Yes.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah.

[Thomas Banks]

Yes, I absolutely did that. Oh, that's just I being a middle child. I. I remember seriously envying my sister, not quite two years older than I, learning to read. And then when I learned to read, I seriously held it over my little brother in a really snobby and obnoxious way. And I enjoyed, even when it was completely irrelevant to do so, pointing out that he could not read, even to people like, I didn't know very well. Absolutely horrible. You were probably. You're probably much nicer to your younger.

[Angelina Stanford]

Siblings over your siblings that you could read and they couldn't. You mean you weren't a monster? Like, I'm changing you. Instead of the mysterious Mr. Banks, you're the monstrous Mr. Banks?

[Thomas Banks]

Pretty much, yeah. Actually, the funny thing is, like, have I. Have I told you about the homeschooling documentary I was a part of? Yes.

[Angelina Stanford]

Please tell our audience this story of worst possible possible part of you. So air it all out.

[Thomas Banks]

There was this PBS documentary about home.

[Angelina Stanford]

Which, if anyone can find this on.

[Thomas Banks]

YouTube, please, I really hope it doesn't exist.

[Angelina Stanford]

I want to see this so bad. Please, please find it.

[Thomas Banks]

This would have been filmed in, like, the early 90s, so I'm yeah, let's say. Let's say 1990, 1991. I'm five years old, and I barely. I'm still learning to read at that point. I can't really say that. You know, and they send a camera crew, the PBS people did, to our house, to be one of the families, you know, whose kids are learning in this new and interesting and kind of odd way. And we basically did a lesson, you know, we did a math section and, you know, phonics and reading and that kind of thing. And I. I remember my sole motive this entire time was to try to find some way of my brother being filmed, unable to sound out his ABCs. I know. I don't think. I don't think that actually, like, made it onto the. Onto the final product.

[Angelina Stanford]

Right. Didn't you jump?

[Natalia Testa]

I know.

[Thomas Banks]

I remember going up. I remember going up to a cameraman and whispering to him, my brother over there, he can't read. And it was like. I don't think my parents noticed me do that, but, like, I'm sure they would have been mortified if they did. I'm gonna know now, after I just came on. Yeah. No, like, if I ever get into politics, I'm sure this will come back to haunt me. Yeah. Homeschool. Video Gate, 1991. I was just an awful kid, but I'm sorry, this is not about me. This is not my day.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, now that we've approved that Natalia is just a better human being than you. Right?

[Thomas Banks]

I mean, big prize. Yeah, Big prize there. Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, so you. You wanted to read desperately, and. And you did. So talk to us about what that early childhood reading experience were like. What were some of your favorite things that you were drawn to? Just, like, earliest memories.

[Natalia Testa]

Okay, so I was born in Virginia, and when I was about five years old, we moved to Texas, where I still live now. And that was when I was just starting to read. So I was five. I got my first library card, my name scrawled in big letters on the back.

[Angelina Stanford]

That amazing, important rite of passage.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah. We read picture books. One thing that I remember my mom did read to me was Mary Pope Osborne's Odyssey for Children. And that was my first. Tales from the Odyssey was my first. And I loved the Odyssey, and that was my first with that. And then anything I got my hands on, I would read. And that eventually I got. When I was five, I found the Magic Treehouse books and read them all, up to a certain point, of course, but I was reading one every day, and I liked that each One, they had a different adventure. They went into different books. So one was in Pompeii and one was in ancient Greece, which I was already starting to have a passion for, and ancient Egypt and all these different ones. And I like, there's different worlds out here and can dip into one of them in each manic treehouse book.

[Angelina Stanford]

My oldest daughter really, really got into those as well.

[Thomas Banks]

Did they have those when we were kids or are those newer?

[Angelina Stanford]

They weren't when I was around, I.

[Thomas Banks]

Guess I don't remember those. They sound really cool, though.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah.

[Natalia Testa]

So you, so you.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm skipping ahead, but you feel like your imagination was captured by the ancients pretty early on.

[Natalia Testa]

Yes. We had done a little Latin at home even before we moved. And I just like the sound of Latin. And I liked, I liked reading about Pompeii and Rome and the Greek myths and the Roman myths and Egypt. We all have our Egypt phase typically, but I had the Egypt phase, but it didn't really capture me the same way the Greeks and the Romans did, but it was pretty early on.

[Thomas Banks]

You seem to have a mind that moves pretty, pretty comfortably in the Middle Ages as well. The literature, the poetry, the history. Do you know where that comes from? Or is it just something that came to you, something you fell in love with?

[Natalia Testa]

It's a hard question. I just. It just seems very natural to me. Just kind of feel at home in it.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. I think for me as a kid, there never was a time when I was not enchanted by old things. Like, even as a kid, I had no interest in reading older book, newer books. I wanted the old stuff, the past. The Romans were the first time period that I was enchanted with as well. And I really. My literary life episode was so long that we didn't even get to that. But when I took Latin in the seventh grade, I loved Latin and I loved the Romans and the Roman stories and just the whole Roman mindset. So that, that was the first time period that really captured me. Later it would become the Medievals, which, which I think is so interesting because the Medievals is just, just Rome, Rome Christianized in a sense. And I remember, you know, you, you took. Two years ago, you took Ancient Literature and ancient history with Mr. Banks. And at the end of the year, you and I were talking about, you know, you were going to take Medieval lit and Medieval History this year, and you were kind of like, I don't know, Ms. Angeline, I'm not sure anything can top the anxious. And I remember making my case to you that no, but it's still the ancients. It's just breathed through silver, you know, as the, as Tolkien would say. It's, it's, it's the ancients baptized. And I think I was able to sell it to you that it was still going to be everything you loved about the ancients and just, you know, plus.

[Natalia Testa]

Absolutely.

[Thomas Banks]

My next question is, are you the sort of person who makes reading plans and schedules for herself, or do you, like Samuel Johnson advised, simply read as your inclination leads you?

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, I'm going to make a guess before she even opens her mouth because you are just like such a, like a systematic mind. Like, I imagine that you have spreadsheets and checklists tell. Which. What, what is it? Am I even. There's no, there's no right, right answer. Because I'm not, I'm not a checklist person. I'm not that disciplined.

[Natalia Testa]

I usually make the checklist. I read a couple very methodically, and then I get distracted, so it ends up being as my whimsy takes me.

[Angelina Stanford]

I got you. I got you. All right, well, let's, well, let's, let's go back though now. Let's move you from. I just learned how to read and to like, you know, now you're in, you're, you're, you're a reader and you're, you're moving on through, you know, your ele years. What were some of the books that really meant a lot to you during that time?

[Natalia Testa]

Okay, so we said I was 5. I was reading the Magic Treehouse books, and one of them kind of jump started something that led to other books. The seventeenth Magic Treehouse book is about the Titanic, and I had no idea what the Titanic was. We love ships. I liked the sea and things, but I didn't know that the Titanic sank. So when that book ended, I ran downstairs because it's the middle of the night, and I said, mom, the boat sank. And she's like, what are you reading? And I'm like, She's like, oh, it's the Titanic, honey. But that got me into nonfiction. And that was my first real hyper focus was Titanic. And I had to read all the books about it. I got very interested in submarines and discovering the wreck. I like the history of it. There's also, like the narrative stories, you know, the tragic story, and that kind of moves on. When I was seven, my early life kind of just. It kind of blossomed even more. I was seven, on my seventh birthday, my mom gave me a Kindle and she had put. It was locked down. I Couldn't buy anything or. Look, she put a bunch of random classics on this one. This one Kindle thing. She had gone for three. So there was all the wizard of Oz books, complete works of Lewis Carroll, complete works of Lewis Samuelcott, Andrew Lang's fairy books, Anderson's Fairy Tales, Grimm's Fairy Tales, lots of Kipling. I love Kipling. 50 famous stories, the Secret Garden, the Complete Shakespeare. Great Expectations is on here.

[Angelina Stanford]

Even the complete works of Shakespeare. This. This completely tracks Treasure Island.

[Natalia Testa]

Like, all these different ones. I didn't read all the books, but. And on the. I remember the first book I read on my Kindle was Alice in Wonderland. And it was the first time I'd ever read it, but I was seven. Like that I was. It was. And that enchanted me. It was just what I had loved with Howl and the Pussy, the Owl and the Pussycat. It was nonsense, but it made. It made sense. It made nonsense. I love Alice.

[Thomas Banks]

Genius. Yeah.

[Natalia Testa]

I loved through the Looking Glass. And that was very important. Charlie. Love for me.

[Angelina Stanford]

I love that. Okay, so the Titanic, that's the. That's when we see the genesis of Natalia, the researcher. And do you still kind of approach. I mean, this is how I approach research. Is that still how you kind of approach it? Something just strikes you and you become like. For me, it's like an obsessive need to answer a question for myself. Yeah. Which, of course, once you start doing that, it leads to other questions and, you know, you could like, almost never get to the end of it. And does it. You. That rush. It gives me a rush. Do you just get like a high?

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah. Yeah. It makes me feel really giddy.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, yeah.

[Natalia Testa]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Like, you can ask Mr. Banks. Like, I'm drunk on it when I'm in research mode. I'm just. It's. It's the. It's the highest high. I. I'm sorry. I just don't think anybody on the street pushing anything is going to make me feel as good. When you realize that dopamine, that comes.

[Thomas Banks]

From some research thread, when you're reading through a bibliography at the end of some work and you lose track of time, that's. That's a. That's a kind of intoxication that very few people get. But I think, yes.

[Angelina Stanford]

It's like chasing the footnotes. Right. I'm sure you're the same way.

[Natalia Testa]

It excites me like nothing else does. I love scholarly apparatus and things. I just.

[Angelina Stanford]

Why it's so hard to finish a book? Because I'll find a footnote and then I have to stop find that book, which I just have to say, you are the queen of finding these things online. Like, I will search for something. Like, it's not. There is no pda. It's not online. And then I mention it it in class. Five minutes later, Natalia's got a link in the chat box. Here, everyone. Here's the full text. How did. I don't know. You don't share with us your secret, but you're amazing. You find everything.

[Thomas Banks]

Do you have a J Store account by any chance?

[Natalia Testa]

Oh, yes.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, of course.

[Natalia Testa]

Absolutely.

[Thomas Banks]

You're one of those teenagers. Yeah. One in. One in 500 teenagers maybe may experiment.

[Natalia Testa]

With a lot of Dorothy Sayers essays on there. About Dorothy Sayers.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, I mean, what would we do without our. Without our J Store? No, I don't know. Like, if you. If you've got just, like, connections with the dark web. I don't know. I don't know how.

[Natalia Testa]

Like, I just.

[Angelina Stanford]

I look for things and I'm like, I can't find it. Then I don't know. She's like, oh, here's an Indonesia link or something. Like, you just like, forget American copy. Like, you just have a way. You just have a way. It's.

[Natalia Testa]

It's sit there and try different keywords and basically, Internet sleuth.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, so you're reading a lot of classic children's literature, a lot of fairy tales, a lot of mythology, and anything else during that time period that was very special to you? I was seven.

[Natalia Testa]

So we had this. It was the Eyewitness Classics, 20,000 Leagues under the Sea. Those were great. It's a big book. It's thin.

[Angelina Stanford]

I have it.

[Natalia Testa]

And it had all these pictures, like. And it was, you know, it's not, like, supposed to be the complete work, obviously. It's maybe 30 pages, I don't know. But it's got big pictures of squids and the plot. And I loved this. Love this eyewitness picture book. And I came to my mom and said, I've read 20,000 Leagues under the Sea. And she says, no, dear, that's not. That's not 20,000 links under the sea. So she read a lot of research, and that really paid off. But she found a very excellent translation of 20,000 Leagues. And she put it on my Kindle and I read the whole thing. And the man who had. Who found the shipwreck of the Titanic had written the introduction to it, and it just blew my mind. I loved Captain Nemo in the whole story.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, okay. This This, I, I have a follow up question here because a lot of people who I think are new to homeschooling, new to the idea of the literary life for their kids, they get very, very nervous about, quote unquote, age appropriate and they get very, oh, your face is already telling me how you're going to answer. But they're very nervous about, oh, I don't know, is this, am I giving my, my 7 year old too hard of a book? And what if he doesn't understand every word? So I'm going to imagine 7 year old Natalia did not understand every word of 20,000 leagues under the Sea. So what's, what's your feeling about giving a young child a book that might seem too hard?

[Natalia Testa]

It just goes over. Whatever I didn't understand went over my head. I'm not actually sure how I got through it. There's a lot of just biological, sort of like interludes in that book. But I was highly contextual reader, so when I found out Tolkien was so big on context, I kind of love Tolkien even more. Kindle, of course, has the dictionary setting, which was my secret weapon, but I didn't want to stop and find out. But I could usually find out what the word meant by the context of the sentence. And I just kind of figured it out. Whatever I didn't understand, it went over my head.

[Angelina Stanford]

But you weren't discouraged by that?

[Natalia Testa]

I wasn't discouraged, no.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, me either.

[Natalia Testa]

I was not really discouraged by things I didn't understand, which maybe, I don't know, goes back to my love for Alice or something, but. And then age appropriateness, not a very common first play that I read, but, and I was the one who would stay up late. My mom had to take away the light bulb and the lamp like I would read all night long. And I remember we had not read any Shakespeare plays as a family, but I had the complete Shakespeare on my Kindle. So the first Shakespeare play I read was Macbeth. And I loved Macbeth and it was not too gruesome for me. I loved it. I love tragedies.

[Angelina Stanford]

But, you know, I'm still that way as a reader. And what I mean by that is I'm not put off by what I don't understand in a hard book. I, I mean, I'm reading a hard book right now. I'm reading a Marsha Eliade book. That's hard. And, or even when I pick up a fry, I think people assume I must understand every word. No. And, but I don't try to. I don't put that burden on myself. I get what I get. I, I sort of feel like it's an era of modernity that we think we are supposed to approach these very multi layered, complex books that are essentially going to grow with you over a lifetime. That we're supposed to approach them in the sense that on a first read I'm going to understand everything of it and I'm going to master it. And then we get frustrated when we don't. And so sometimes somebody will read a fry book, for example, and they'll be like, okay, so I'm on this page two and I don't understand this third sentence and I think, think. So just skip it and keep going. Like, like I, I don't approach it that way, thinking I have to master everything. And, and I think that's part of the hang up when we give these books to our kids is we're thinking, oh no, they're not going to understand every word. Well, so what? Neither are you, neither are any of us. Like that's the whole process, right? But obviously something delighted you. You were not put off. Part of it is, I think as a kid you don't know your soul supposed to be put off. Like, you know, like I think back to even like movies I loved as a kid and I watch it now and I think, oh, all of that just went right over my head. What I loved was, you know, this one scene, you know, like that's, that's how it works. So you were obviously enchanted by books. I've got to know though, because I see you. I wish people could see the very, very impressive bookshelf credibility behind you. When did you start building your own personal library? Is that something you've just done for a really long time?

[Natalia Testa]

It started with the Magic Treehouse books. The very early ones are very thin and we would get them and I had bedside table and had a little shelf built into it and my Magic Trios books went on the shelf. And I remember looking at these books and they're, they were mine and I were theirs and I was a reader and that's what I did. And that was like the first bookshelf. But I didn't trying to think when did I start really building? I could pick up random books at bookstores. I've only just started putting them like one place.

[Angelina Stanford]

But well, when you share with us your book hauls you, you find amazing stuff too.

[Thomas Banks]

Very good arrangement behind you too. I mean again this is a moment where we wish we had actually visual aids for the listeners but, but yes, you'll just have to take our word for it that it's obviously, obviously a real connoisseur's collection back there.

[Angelina Stanford]

Before we move on to our discussion of.

[Thomas Banks]

And thank you, by the way, for not arranging them by color.

[Natalia Testa]

That's.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Your face. She's horrified that you would even suggest such a thing.

[Natalia Testa]

Only the lobes can go by color.

[Thomas Banks]

Yes, absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right. You have. You have just an amazing classical library there with your lobes as well. Before we move on to talking about Saint Dot, which we knew we were going to get there any other books that stood out to you during this time before we. Before we transition to good old Dorothy?

[Natalia Testa]

A Wrinkle in Time, actually.

[Angelina Stanford]

Ah. We have another shared love between you and I.

[Natalia Testa]

My mom was reading it to herself, and it wasn't that I was. I would go into her room and I would sit there for a couple hours and I would just read it. Like, it wasn't that I wasn't supposed to read it. I would just go in every day. And I loved Wrinkle on Time. I didn't read any of their sequels at that time. I didn't really finish the series until last year. But I love the Wrinkle in Time being quadruple children books. I really binged those. I was like my first series where the author was alive. That's like the only times the author was alive and I was following the series.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yes. I have to. I have to laugh and tease you a little bit here because you. You were the. Again, we just absolutely adore you. You're such a fun student to teach, and we just like you so much as a person. But one of the things that really tickled me about you when we did the Harry Potter series on the podcast last year. Well, Mr. Banks had said on the air that basically you were too much of a book snob to have read Harry Potter because it was popular. You said.

[Thomas Banks]

Far too much of a snob.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yep. And your mother read him and liked him.

[Natalia Testa]

You.

[Angelina Stanford]

You said, nope, no, I'm a snob. You know, this is popular, therefore I can't like it. And we had to laugh because, Natalia, you had a similar experience where you wouldn't read Harry Potter because it was too popular and you were a snob.

[Natalia Testa]

I read the first three books. I wasn't allowed to read the fourth one until I was older, but I was. When I got to the age where I was officially allowed to read book four, I got distracted by Saint Dot and I had really grown. But I loved the first three Books. But. But then as soon as. After I just read the first three books, it started becoming really popular in my circles. So I just kind of lost interest.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm the same way. I. I don't think it's because. I hope it's not because I'm a snob. We're using the word snob kind of jokingly here, but I think I'm suspicious of anything that's popular, you know?

[Thomas Banks]

No, I feel the same way. And at the same time, I don't really like that about myself. Because then I think, what if I were alive in 1850 and someone said, yeah, the new Dickens book is really great.

[Angelina Stanford]

Exactly.

[Thomas Banks]

I would have said, no, that's a popular class. No, it's.

[Angelina Stanford]

But see, and I literally think to myself about that, that with Shakespeare, with Dickens, and I would put Rowling in the same category. Like, there are exceptions where something can be both tremendously popular and of a high quality. It's just so rare. And I get burned on things so often. I sort of understand that suspicion about myself, I think so now. Okay, so now you're moving up. Tell us about how you discovered Dorothy Sayers. Because it blows me away that you read her so young.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. What was the first book of hers that you really fell in love with?

[Angelina Stanford]

Tell us.

[Natalia Testa]

Your heart There.

[Angelina Stanford]

Strong Poison. Oh, you started right with the Harriet. Okay, yeah.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah. So let's see, it was. I was.

[Angelina Stanford]

You've been into detective stories before that, or was this just kind of. Oh, this is your first everything?

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, So I kind of spoiled myself that way. So I remember I was walking, you know, among our bookshelves, and there was a book on the Edge. And then. No, I had said, I want to read a murder mystery. I want to. That seems like a fun genre, but.

[Angelina Stanford]

How old are you at this point?

[Natalia Testa]

I'm 11. Okay, you're turning 12. So just a couple years ago, and I said, mom, I want to read a murder mystery or something like that. And she said, we have all these Dorothy Sayers. So I picked up one, and it was strong poison. And I was obsessed, Obsessed with it. It's hard. People ask me this, and I have to think about it. Why is it that I liked her then? Why. Why Dorothy Sayers? Why is it still like, you know, the big part of your life? You know? I think I liked the author's personality. I liked how Vivate, like, her writing was vivacious, but I liked. One of the things I remember really enjoying was she threw out all these literary references at the drop of a hat. I didn't understand. I know I didn't understand half of them.

[Angelina Stanford]

I, I don't get them all as an adult.

[Natalia Testa]

Alice in Wonderland on every other page. And I was like, this is my favorite thing. I love Alice, I love Lewis Carroll, I love the wizard of Oz books. Any, I mean fantasy but like upside down worlds basically. And so. And I loved Lord Peter. He could detect. But he, but it was also like, it was just like a fiction novel, you know, it was a novel, you know, this novel of manners. I know that now. But. But he was also incredibly, incredibly well read and he was just fun and he just, he just saw this young woman in the dock and he was. It was so just a cute story. I was like, I want to hear more about this. Actually I read those books. It was very difficult. It was. A lot of things in my life were changing at this time. It was a darker time. Things were just thrown out of whack. But. And detective novels in the Lord Peter books, order was restored. And I think in that way that detective novels did really save my life then.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, I feel that so strongly. And of course we've argued that on many, many episodes in the both series that we did on Dorothy Sayers, Gotti Knight and Murder must advertise on our episode about, you know, why read detective stories when I feel myself getting out of whack back detective stories is what I turn to. And I know you're the same way. Like I just, they the most comforting thing I could possibly read. And Sayers, I mean you and I have talked about this many times, Sayers in particular because of the world she creates, because it's a novel of manners, because it's so highly literary. That's what blew me away too when I read Lord Peter the first time. It's just like every time this guy opened his mouth it was a literary reference. And I didn't, again, to our, our point earlier, I didn't get all the references. I didn't think I needed to get all the references. She's got so much French and Latin there that she doesn't even translate. But it just all made this beautiful atmosphere to wash over me, this literary atmosphere. And I was just nuts about Lord Peter.

[Natalia Testa]

Are you.

[Angelina Stanford]

Do you crush on Lord Peter too?

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, yeah. And he was funny too. Like there was humor in it. But it was also like, you know, someone had died and someone, you know, the stakes were high, but it was still funny.

[Angelina Stanford]

It was still very self deprecating too.

[Natalia Testa]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And he. Yeah. And strong poison is really halfway through this series. It's really big turning point, which makes me laugh when I think that was where I started, then I went back.

[Angelina Stanford]

I'm pretty sure that's where I started too, though.

[Natalia Testa]

And he is Strong Poison is where his journey really begin. Like it's the turn.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, it seems like a Harriet Vane. And so that completely changes him. When I read the Strong Poison, I was like, I am Harriet Vane. Is that how you felt too?

[Natalia Testa]

Harriet isn't herself in that one. And I was a little put off, but I was also like, she is incredible. And I kind of like her, you know, despite. You're right.

[Angelina Stanford]

I would say I'm more Harry Gaudy Knight than Strong Poison. You're right. You're right. But I mean, I could. I just. I just loved the characters so much and, And. And. And love the world and I mean, there's nothing about them that I. That I didn't like. So did when. Okay, I'm very curious. What happens next? So you read Strong Poison. Do you then decide to make a Sayer's plan? Do you read all of them? Do you read them in order? Like, how did you approach.

[Natalia Testa]

Was completely. Not to say this again, but as my whimsy takes me, I. We only had some of the books.

[Angelina Stanford]

Which, if you don't know listeners, that is the family motto of the whimsies. As my whimsy takes me. So she's being quite clever there. That's what I did too. I just randomly read them, however I found them. But. Continue, continue.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, we had a couple of them. My mom had read. She only had read Gotti Night. And she was like, natalia, you have to read Guy Night. You have to read Guy Night. I wanted to wait until I had read all the other ones first. And I also had a sneaking suspicion that I was really gonna like it. But then once I liked it, I wasn't gonna want to read any of the others. So it kind of wasn't curmudging about it, but. So I didn't read that one till later. But we had. We had Murderous Ad. I read. I think the second one I read was probably. It might have been Five Red Herrings, Clouds of Witness, Unnatural Death. And we started ordering them because I was rapidly consuming them. And then eventually I read Havoc's Carcass, which is the second Harriet Vane and Lord Peter novel. She is much herself. And there's this delightful banter between those two. And that one was probably where I started to say, I am like Harriet and I like and Lord Peter is a lot more. I don't know, he's grown a lot since Tron. Poison habits carcass. And it's a lot deeper but also much funnier in that book.

[Angelina Stanford]

So anybody who's been following the podcast for many, many years, even back before I was married, knows that I used to always say I was Harriet Vane and I was on the search for my Lord Peter and.

[Thomas Banks]

But then you married me instead.

[Angelina Stanford]

See, I knew you were here. Here comes self deprecating remark. What could he possibly have in common with Lord Peter?

[Natalia Testa]

Peter.

[Angelina Stanford]

And I was going to say you always say, no, I didn't marry Lord Peter, but I would say yes. And Natalia, I think you can back me up on here. You, Mr. Banks is the. Is the person with whom I felt like I was recreating the Lord Peter. Harriet. Literary banter. Like they just go rapid fire back and forth with the literary illusions. And you and I do that. So you know. No, you're not the. The second son of the Duke, but you know, we have that vibe. You also like old books.

[Thomas Banks]

I won't argue with you. How's that? I won't stare a literary compliment in the mouth.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, that's. That's more like it. That's more like it. There might be a dead body lying around if you do that.

[Thomas Banks]

Whose body would be really easy to answer then.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Now there you go. There you go. So did you read them all like in. In one? Really?

[Natalia Testa]

You did a space of. I started. It was August and I read whose body last, I think, which is very odd. But as soon as I could get. It was December, so it was like four very rapid fire months.

[Angelina Stanford]

Did you read the short stories too?

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, most of them.

[Angelina Stanford]

Wow. Wow, that is amazing. And at that young age too. Now, did that lead you to reading to some of her other stuff like the Mind and the Maker or her Place? Not that that soon.

[Natalia Testa]

I didn't read Mind the Maker until you did on the podcast. Okay. So like two years later. Yeah, I didn't read anything else. I just reread them. Reread the Lord Peter novels over and over and over again.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's why I wish there were good audios of them. I would just have them playing constantly.

[Natalia Testa]

I know, I know. It's something we need to.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, you can listening. You're like, there are audios. Not in the United States. There's not. Not. I don't know what's going on there.

[Natalia Testa]

Just. You can only find the BBC dramatizations for most of them in the US Ian Carmichael did a lot of them, and you can sometimes find them through libraries, but it's not all of them, and there's really no way to buy them on Audible either. So it's really hard.

[Angelina Stanford]

I was some kind of weird thing, though.

[Natalia Testa]

I know. It's like the Harry Potter audiobooks again. Very much like that.

[Angelina Stanford]

Right, right, right.

[Natalia Testa]

If you can find Ian Carmichael, Scotty Knight, I was able to find it somewhere and, like, digitize it, but he's a great job narrator. You just got.

[Angelina Stanford]

I do like Ian A. Carmichael a lot as the narrator. He's really, really good. No, I enjoy him a lot as Lord.

[Natalia Testa]

One complaint about Ian Carmel's narrating is that sometimes it's hard to tell, like, when the dialogue between the character switches. Like, he doesn't really do voices. But, I mean, if you've already read the book a lot of times, definitely it doesn't matter as much.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's true. So now we're getting about to the age when you started taking classes with us. So tell us the story about how you discovered us. Was it through the podcast? Was your mom a podcast listener? And then she signed you up for the class? Like, tell us a story about that.

[Natalia Testa]

Okay, so this is a story, and it kind of goes back to where my mom was discovering Charlotte Mason and the homeschooling arc. So I was. I was around. I was 7 or 8 when she found Charlotte Mason. And we tried different things, but I feel like it had all looking back now. It always kind of feels like it was unintentionally Sam. But anyway, she start. She was listening to the podcast from the beginning in 2019, and she always had it on, and I was always listening. I was the little ears in the backseat. And so I knew, like, you know how it is with kids. Like, you hear it you or you, like, you know, people have books in their house. It could tell that my mom respected this. And I became a fan girl. Just listening in the backseat. I was like, I want to write them fan letters, but I could never find the fan address. But I was like, she. It's awesome. And then. And when I read Gaudy Night, my mom said they did an episode. They did a series on Gody Night. So I started with the Gaudy Night episodes and fell in love with that. That was really my first dose of the medieval imagination, because all the counterpoint at the end and the Petrarch and sonnets, but. And that was late 2021. I started listening to it for myself. And the next book I read at the podcast I think was the Enchanted April. We were in the car. My mom had. Was my car. My mom would listen to audiobooks in the car, and then she would switch to the podcast episodes. Like, that's what we do on car trips now, even. But I remember, like, taking. I was listening to something else, and I. I had my headphones off during the scene where Mrs. Fisher. And they're. They're eating the pasta, and they're eating the macaroni. Mrs. Fisher's, like, trying to cut it, and the maid is, like, having, you know, shrieking because she's cutting the pasta. It's just a lot of things like this.

[Angelina Stanford]

You're Italian. Sicilian, I should say. Yes, it's your Sicilian. This would have really bothered you that they were cutting the pasta with a knife.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, yeah. And I was like, this is funny. So I went and listened to it, and I just. I reread that all the time.

[Angelina Stanford]

But that's another comfort book. That. That's an amazing book. All right, so then you started. Then your mom signed you up for good books, and so you did come. So not everybody comes into the class knows who we are. So you did come in already knowing who I was.

[Natalia Testa]

I knew who you were, and I knew that you liked Lloyd Peter and Harriet Bane as much as I did.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay, okay.

[Natalia Testa]

There was kindred. I was like, this is going to be awesome. And I. Yeah, I. I have a.

[Thomas Banks]

Title to run by you. I have a feeling you'll probably have heard of this one, because it features a character who is kind of loosely based on Dorothy Sayers. It's a novel called the Towers of. Of Trebizond by Rose McCauley. You do know this book. Okay, yes.

[Natalia Testa]

You mentioned on the podcast once, and I read it last year, and it is really funny. And Aunt Dot is definitely Dorothy Sayers.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah. Yeah. Once. Once you know that Rose McCauley knew Dorothy Sayers personally, it's like, oh, yes, this is kind of a. Yeah, this one's kind of on the nose, which.

[Angelina Stanford]

If you've ever listened to the podcast and wondered why I call her Aunt Dot sometimes, it's because of that book. She's. She was definitely not.in real life, but she was the character aunt.in that book.

[Thomas Banks]

I guess you could say this for more authors than just Sayers, but she really is an author who doesn't have any parallel in our own time. Just when you take into account all the things she did, someone who is a translator, a medievalist, a writer of. A writer of mysteries. Mysteries on a different Level. Popular apologist. Yes. Playwright, also. That's an important part of her. We should do one of her plays. I think it's like the Man Born.

[Angelina Stanford]

She's the most proud of her plays.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Underrated.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's why she stopped writing the Detective.

[Thomas Banks]

Her first book was actually a collection of poems.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's right. Which is out of this one that Carl's Williams reviewed. Yeah.

[Natalia Testa]

I don't know.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's how she met Charles Williams. He did a review. He did a review of her poems.

[Natalia Testa]

It's one of her books.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, but, yeah, her lectures. Her public.

[Thomas Banks]

Public lectures on Dante.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, her. Her published lectures on Dante are just.

[Thomas Banks]

Even if she had never translated Dante herself, she would be a major figure in Dante's scholarship.

[Angelina Stanford]

She was such a mind.

[Thomas Banks]

But, yeah, it's. It's just we don't have anyone, like, doing all those things.

[Angelina Stanford]

And she wrote advertisements and she worked.

[Thomas Banks]

For an ad agency.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, it's like, pays to advertise.

[Angelina Stanford]

Indeed, indeed. All right, so let me. I gotta tell our listeners this story, though, of my first memory of you, which is the first day of good books. So I. I come into class and, you know, I'm looking at my zoom screen, I'm looking at all these little boxes of my students, and I see right away that one student has. Has as her name in the box. Harriet Vane. Of course I'm gonna notice that, because Harriet Vane isn't me. I'm Harriet Vane. Who is this child stealing my identity. And you had the camera angled down low, like it must have been a laptop or something. It was down low and you were, like, sitting on top of it. You were so. You had the most intense face. You had a Harriet Vane hat on. You were so serious and. And you were just on top of the camera and you were so intense. Of course I was.

[Natalia Testa]

Is.

[Angelina Stanford]

Is. And was the most intense child. Mr. Banks still thinks I'm intense, but I am positively mellow now compared to what I was at 12 years old. I always. He laughs. He just laughs when I say, no, I'm so mellow now. I'm actually a really mellow person now.

[Natalia Testa]

See?

[Angelina Stanford]

Hear that laugh. I really am, though, compared to what I was.

[Thomas Banks]

The parallel that always occurs to me when you say that is Samuel Johnson at one point in Boswell says, I really am a very mild mannered and shy fellow. And it's like this wonderful, like, do you know yourself?

[Angelina Stanford]

I am, though. I totally am. So I'm looking at you, and you're so intense, and you are just hanging on Every word. And you are all over the chat box. And you had this vibe of, I am not a child in this class. I am a 35 year old adult. And you know, you and, and I knew right away, right away, like, this is, this is somebody who wants to be spoken to equal to equal, which of course you know about me that that's how I teach all my classes. But you just absolutely delighted me. And then I was so impressed with you, the stuff you would say in the chat box. And I would think she, you. I remember thinking, I, I must have misunderstood. Surely she hasn't read Gaudy Night. You're like, oh, I've read it 14 times. And, and you would always be quoting Dorothy Sayers to me in class. Just, I was just delighted, absolutely delighted with, with all of that. I hope Good Books lived up to everything that you hoped it would be.

[Natalia Testa]

Oh yes, and I was very fortunate to have. I, I'm still friends and very close pen pals. I talk to my classmates from Good Books every day now. Still remarkable group of people. I started, I started. Yeah, Food, books was everything.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, but seeing those friendships develop, it's such an important thing for me. And so then of course you, you've moved into the high school classes now. You've completed your freshman year and your sophomore year and you've taken a bunch. Just you. I feel like. Is there anything we offer that you haven't taken? I mean, my gosh, you take everything. We actually had to have a talk with your mom this year about not taking so many classes next year because, because you, you take everything. You're just so intense and so driven and, and, and so bright. And we, we love all this about you. But you were also involved this year in getting our student journal off the ground, the Scriptorium. And I know that. So this is our student run journal, the Scriptorium. It's available on our website and it's completely student run, student edited, student submissions. I mean, I'm, I'm hands off about it, but I know that writing is very important, important to you and it's, it's very big, big part of your literary life. So tell us about, about all of that.

[Natalia Testa]

I have always loved words. I mean, it's probably been enchanted with books, but I love what they mean. Actually, when I tried reading about Dorothy Sayers herself, I was really resonated for again because she, she was huge, especially with her tussles, the BBC about not speaking down to children and not dumbing down the language. And when she was little, she Was enchanted by big words. She didn't know what they meant. Like apostolic church. Like random words in the creed, like transubstantiation and, like, stuff she heard, like Athanasius. She's like, I don't know what that means. That's fascination. But anyway, when I was seven, I started writing short stories. And I'm a fiction writer. I write a lot of fiction. I write a lot of letters, but we never did a writing program. And I love grammar and I love punctuation, and I love. I get. You know, it's the same thing with footnotes, indented paragraphs make me happy. And I like semicolons, even though I misused them. But. And em. Dashes. But I feel like if we had done anything like writing program, I wouldn't have that organic passion. I don't know.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, a writing program, at the end of the day can't teach you how to love words. And. And I think that's really what you have to. Have to be a good writer. I definitely encourage anybody to go and look at the two issues of the Scriptorium that have been published on the website. I think you're going to be very blown away with the quality of writing. And these. We don't offer writing classes. These are not students who've had formal writing.

[Thomas Banks]

Just the breadth of interest that you see in the various essays and articles that appear in the Scriptorium. I mean, there's everything from Boethius to, you know, this odd aspect of Tolkien that no one else knows about, to Samuel Johnson to.

[Angelina Stanford]

To Harry Potter.

[Thomas Banks]

To Harry Potter.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. And everything in between.

[Thomas Banks]

Yeah, It's. It's this. It's like.

[Angelina Stanford]

And we have nonfiction and fiction. We have poetry. Just.

[Natalia Testa]

Just.

[Angelina Stanford]

Just the.

[Thomas Banks]

I'm trying to think of another magazine by and for young people to compare it to, but there aren't any. So there you go.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, you know, I am a firm believer, and I know that this is. This is tough for a parent because you're told all the time, kids have to have a system. They have to have a program. Right. Which. I mean, come on. Shakespeare didn't take a creative writing class. That's not how this worked. None of these guys did. No one before the Modern period had composition classes. Classes, in fact. Well, I mean, this is a whole other story, but the modern composition class comes out of World War II out of the fact that soldiers on the GI Bill were going into college, and they had not come out of college preparatory schools. In other words, they hadn't read a whole lot, and they Weren't, didn't have a great basis of language. And so they, they had to create a class to kind of be a stop gap fix kind of thing. But if you have a language rich environment, that is what a child needs. Not, not a program. And it, I, I know there's so much anxiety around the whole question of writing, but in my experience as somebody who is a professional writer and who has also taught writing in a college and who has all these students now and all these years of experience, 32 years. Writing is simply putting your thoughts down on paper. And see, Natalia is nodding along. Yes, she is. The difficulty people have with writing is not that they don't how, know how to do the five steps to write a paragraph is that they don't have clear thoughts. It's not that they don't know how to put it into a good sentence. It's that it's not a clear thought in their mind. That is where the work has to be done. And when I look at something like the scriptorium, what I see is students who have had their minds fed deeply in our classes and have spent a lot of time thinking about these things when they're given the opportunity to write them, it comes out. It comes out and makes sense because it makes sense in your head. Does that track with your experience, Natalia?

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, absolutely. We have, the student body here is so diverse and everyone is so interesting and we all have different, different perspectives, but we have, you know, we're taking all this information out of a fire hose and we're like, oh, this connects to something else. Science of relations. And you want to talk about it, you want to write about it.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's been, that's been so fun to watch. Again, there's nothing artificial about what we do at all at hhl. Nothing. We don't, we do things. You're laughing because I do. I, it's me, I do things differently than everybody else. We, we don't have the kinds of assignments, we don't have the kinds of grades. What we do. I was just talking to a college professor about this last week and I said it's not, we don't really teach high school. We teach grad school for high schoolers. Yeah, you're nodding. Say it. Nod into the microphone, Natalia, say yes. Yes is, it's true though. Like, we give y' all so much deep, deep knowledge and then what I watch y' all do with that. So we have a student forum. I watch y' all talking about it constantly and I just lurk in there and just get delighted watching all the connections that you're making and the way that y' all ping off of each other and you'll each go and kind of hyper focus on different aspects of what you're learning, and then you share it together. You share it on zoom meetings with each other, which is all done off campus. Like, you know, all of the. All of the. The quote unquote discussion classes that everybody wants to have and that are so artificial and gimmicky. Like, we just have it naturally. Y' all do it off campus. You're feeding on these ideas. I loved that when you guys wrote your midterms that y' all made a Google Doc and you shared and like, you, all of you just read each other's and then discussed it. Like, that's, that's not what high school. Like, that is what grad school is supposed to be like. Like, you know, you each did your research and you presented this amazing paper and then you shared it with each other, and y' all discuss the ideas and, and, and just the feeding never, never stops. And just watching you guys blossom. And you've been such an essential part of that. You've just been in the middle, middle of all of it, getting all of that done. I'm really, really proud of the work you guys have done with the scriptorium. It. I mean, I'm not coming out really well. I mean, I'm not even going to pretend I cried. I cried when I read it because I'm just overcome. I'm overcome by the way you guys have taken these things into your heart and made it your own. I mean, at the end of the day, right, it's not how much you know, it's how much you care. Right? That's Charlamason. It's. It's not about what you can spit back on a worksheet or a test. It's about what you love, what you have taken into yourself, what has become yours. And that is what I see you guys doing. And it just absolutely blows me away. You know, usually on the podcast, we ask our guests, guests, was there a point in which you laid whole and claimed the literary life for yourself? But it sounds like you never didn't do that.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, I mean, I remember there being a moment where I saw the books on the shelf and they were mine, and this is what I was, what I did. But. And when I had the Kindle, it was more of like, I stay up on. I read, I read these things, internalize them. But internalizing was really It's. We were writing written narration. You know, we were writing narrations and doing narrations. And you kind of see how. I think. What's one of the things I like about Dorothy Sayers is I think we've said, you said this on the podcast before, but she's not laughing at all these other authors. She's laughing with them, and she's, you know, she's having jokes with Lord Peter, and she's enjoying this atmosphere of things that have come before in this great tradition and seeing the student body kind of, you know, we laugh at these. We're very familiar with. They're like our friends, and we like to share them with each other and how they connect in different ways.

[Angelina Stanford]

And you guys bring so much. I mean, I know people probably think, oh, you know, Angelina and Thomas, that, you know, they know everything. We do not. We absolutely do not. And. And it's my favorite, favorite part of teaching when you guys. This is even true of good books, when you guys make a connection that I didn't see. Are you bringing, especially now. I mean, gosh, students like you and I could name a few others who have just really jumped into the deep end of research. And you'll come into class with stuff that I haven't read and knowledge that I don't have, and you add it to the class and it just. It just feels so alive and so vibrant, and we're all just learning, learning, and it's. And it's so amazing. But lest anybody listening to this think, well, Natalia is just a genius and my child can never be like this. You're a regular human. She's laughing because she's. You really are a regular human. And I would imagine, like all regular humans, you go through slumps. Okay, tell us.

[Natalia Testa]

Absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, so what's a reading slump for you and how do you get out of it? Because I definitely go through reading slumps. I. I like hyper focus and then crash. I bet you're the same way. And then I have to get a complete 180 on what I read. But go ahead, tell us about how you handle that.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, it's very similar to that. Usually I'll be reading probably too many things at once, or I'll be following too many things, and I'll just stop. I'll just start. Like, I don't know, I get in a slump, I stop. It's either too. I don't know. I don't know if I've been reading one thing for a long time, and then it just gets. Get Slumped out, or I'm reading too many things at once, or. And then when I'm in a reading slump, usually I start even more books, but usually they're rereads. I reread Enchanted April. Really love to say nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis, which one of my classmates recommended from Good Books. And I read that over, over and over again. And I always go back to a Lord Peter novel in the end. Something familiar that I know I like, and that kind of gets me started back on.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, I do something really similar, and I think I. I wonder what's going on there. Like, I think the familiar familiarity really helps. Right? Because I. It doesn't. So if I feel burnt out, I try to give myself something that's just gonna, like, get me in the habit of turning pages again. Like, I know. You know what I mean, right? Like, you're so burned out, you feel like I. I don't have any more brain space. And so I'll read something really familiar and comforting. And that's a deep love. And it just. It just gets me back into the rhythm without taxing my brain too much. I think rereads are really good for that. I think children's classics, for me, it's a. It's a Golden age detective novel or a PG Wodehouse. Like, that's my.

[Natalia Testa]

That's my go to since one of the books, when I was really young, my sisters and I. There's a wonderful audiobook of the Winnie the Pooh stories. Stephen Fry did it and Judi Dench. And we. We listened to that. We've listened to that almost every single night for the past seven or eight years. And it's kind of just. That's also a go to because we know the stories very well now, more so obviously than we used to. And it's this place of familiarity that we always go back to in children's.

[Thomas Banks]

Lit that makes very good sense. So, next question. Whether in school or just reading on your own, is there any genre or class of books which you didn't at all care for at first, but which you have slowly come to like to appreciate?

[Natalia Testa]

Seems actually kind of funny. I like a lot. I like most books that I read, but I did not read a lot of biographies until I read. Listened to why I read biographies. And I have not stopped reading biographies since then, so.

[Thomas Banks]

Well, hear, hear.

[Angelina Stanford]

That's very interesting. So now you like them.

[Natalia Testa]

I just like what I was. I. I don't know why I didn't read biographies. It wasn't that I didn't like them. I just didn't. I just read the work and enjoyed it. But since then, I really. One of my classmates, she recommended the Queen Victoria Light and Strachi biography, which I adored. I've started, like, reading all the Dorothy Sayers biographies.

[Thomas Banks]

Didn't Sayers, who's her protege. Barbara. Barbara Reynolds finished the Paradisio. Yeah. I think hers is supposed to be quite good.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, that's, yes, it is good, but it's a little more squeaky clean.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, okay.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, yeah, I've read a bunch of Dorothy Sayers biographies. I've, I, I, I must have been maybe 31 when I read my first Sayers biography. And this again, like, unitally, I, I'm much less like Mr. Banks as a reader. Like, I, it takes me a long time and to pick up a biography. And again, like you, I'll be like, I don't know why I didn't. I just obsessively read the Lord Peter novels over and over and over and over. I think part of it is I always feel like I know the author through their work, you know?

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

But that was the first time I read a biography of hers, and I'm pretty sure it was the Barbara Reynolds. And that is when I walked away and I thought, I, I think I might be Dorothy Sayers. I, I think we might be the same person. You feel that way about her? Like, there's like just like a deep kindredness there.

[Natalia Testa]

Deep. Yeah, deep kindredness. The more I read about her early upbringing, I feel better.

[Angelina Stanford]

Was so much like what you're describing. Right. She just had access to her family's library. She's pretty much self taught. She's reading Wonderland.

[Natalia Testa]

She wants, she used to claim this, and it's probably not necessarily true, but she used to claim that Lewis Carroll peaked in her perambulator when she was little. And her family was very close friends with Lewis Carroll. They were in the.

[Thomas Banks]

I didn't know this.

[Angelina Stanford]

I want that story to be true.

[Natalia Testa]

So good. She was also Dorothy Sayers was. This can be related to William Haslett, the essayist.

[Thomas Banks]

Wow.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah. Also, I really love this. Her, the late part of her family, her mother's family, the Lays. She was related to Percival Lay. And he, he, he wrote the comic Latin grammar and the comic English grammar. And you can kind of see where her funny side comes in. But there's also like the Hazlitt side from the Sayers line where it's more like the essayist and they kind of harmonize.

[Angelina Stanford]

Mm. You see What? I mean, guys, about her being the research queen like you. You just said things Mr. Banks didn't know. You're amazing. N You. Okay, last question.

[Natalia Testa]

You.

[Angelina Stanford]

You've listened to a lot of the podcast. You know, the kinds of stuff we talk about. You know, the kinds of things that our audience struggles with. Do you have some words of encouragement either for students themselves who maybe are a little bit younger than you, or even a mom who has kids younger than you, because, like, homeschool moms have got to be some of the most anxious people in the world, and I'm not. I don't mean that as a criticism. It's just an observation. Like, we, we put a ton of pressure on ourselves for all the right reasons. We want to do well by our kids. We, you know, we don't want to make mistakes. We want to get this right. The, the culture puts a tremendous amount of pressure on us. There's so many competing voices. It's just really, really hard. I'm. In fact, I find myself often thinking, thank goodness I raised my kids before the age of Instagram, because I think comparing myself against all the, you know, even though, you know, they're fake pictures in perfect homeschools, you know, it's just impossible. And so because of that, I think that moms will listen to us and listen to Cindy and think, okay, no, no, they're right. I should give my old books to these kids. And. But then there's so many other voices, and the kid maybe is resistant or struggles, and they're like, well, no, no old books. This is too hard. Just, just Children's illustrated classics. What. What would you say to somebody like that? What would be your. Like, if this is your chance?

[Natalia Testa]

No pressure. My only advice I really have, I think, is read the old books on a bridge and keep. Don't. Don't stop reading. Just keep reading. If you don't under. If you don't understand it, like, just. You can just keep going, like 10 seconds. Honestly, mind the Maker is huge, but I'm not talking about giving your kid mind the Maker, but I don't know, just read the old books. They're there for a reason.

[Angelina Stanford]

They are. And the thing is, like something like 20,000 Leagues under the Sea, kids did read that. 12 year olds read Jane Eyre. 10 year olds read Jane Eyre. Like, it's us who think, oh, my child can't handle that. I think, think. I think parents of good book students have a lot easier time with that because they see how. I mean, I, I teach good books pretty Much at a graduate level, too. I just use different vocabulary. Yeah, you're not in your head. Like, it's all the same concepts. It's just I. I make it an easier vocabulary, and I make easier examples. But what we see in good books is those kids rise to the level because they're being given real food, and they just, you know, they.

[Natalia Testa]

They.

[Angelina Stanford]

They're properly nourished, and they. And they blossom. And I think it surprises the parents in the best kind of way that, oh, they're capable of so much more than I think they are.

[Natalia Testa]

So, yeah, I think Family Camp did a really good job of showing that.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, we didn't even talk about that. We. We all met in person this last year at the House of Humane Letters Family Summer camp. That was a ball.

[Natalia Testa]

Best week of my life.

[Angelina Stanford]

Wait, what?

[Natalia Testa]

Best week of my life.

[Angelina Stanford]

It was San Salvatore, wasn't it?

[Natalia Testa]

Absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, that was quite literally, actually.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

I mean, you guys were amazing. Y' all stayed up late every night reading to each other and talking about books. And then, y' all, we put on that Shakespeare night. It was just. It was magic. It was magic again, just to see. To see what the literary life looks like. And, you know, so many of the parents after the camp said, you know, they love their kid in the classes. You know, they believe what we say on the podcast in the classes, but there was something about seeing all of you in the same space, and it was just so obvious to everyone that you guys were fully alive in a way that most people your age aren't, because you're just not nourished.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah. And this is one thing I love about the student body. I've noticed, you know, the name of, you know, it's Humane Letters. It's humane and, you know, see it. And, you know, a lot of these people, you know, I see them in the. You know, a lot of people like, our relationships and good books started. I liked, like, what they said in the Canvas forums. I respected their mind. You know, they could talk about, you know, Shakespeare and Tolkien, all this stuff. And I was like, you know, they're obviously very brilliant people, but they're also just. They're just high schoolers like me. They're also just fun people. We can laugh, we can, you know, cry. We can talk about. We're just fun people to hang around. And, I mean, it happens all the time. We're like, I know. If only I had a group that would, you know, want to go hiking for me on this long trail. I'm like, oh, we'll do that. Like it's. And seeing that family campus. We didn't just talk about books. I mean, we did talk about books, but we were silly. We hung out. We. I don't know.

[Angelina Stanford]

You stayed up very late. You sang the soundtrack to Les Mis, you know. Yeah, exactly. No, that's. Exactly. No, I'm glad you made that point because I don't want anybody thinking we are somehow an online school for brilliant people. I really don't think it's that. I think that you guys are ordinary high school kids, kids who've actually just been given a life giving education, and that's why you look so different. That's why your. Your minds seem more alive. But I think it's what anyone's capable of.

[Natalia Testa]

Oh, yes. Yeah. And meeting these people and seeing us was really when I started to become like, literally alive is the word. Like, it's lively.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, that. That. That's what we saw too. It was a treat.

[Thomas Banks]

You meet other people and you say, you too. You have this particular delight, you have this particular joy, and you like some of the same what I thought were esoteric things but turn out to be simply human things, as I do.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yep. But like you said, the science of relations, y' all then turn around and. And I mean, I feel like I should say just as often as somebody's like, oh, this is like Boethius or this is like Shakespeare. Somebody else will say, this is like the Mandalorian.

[Natalia Testa]

Right? Yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. Like, it's not all esoteric stuff. It's the science of relations. And we're learning these things and we're seeing this deep connection between all these different things and the world just. It feels. Feels more alive and it feels more orderly and that you can understand more of it. And it's just. It's been so good for me to. To watch you guys and to watch you. Natalia, you're such an interesting person, and I'm so glad that we got to introduce you to our audience. And of course, I can't let you go without asking, who's your favorite teacher? I'm just kidding. Just. I'm just. It's obviously me. I'm just kidding. I mean, I call you my mini me. It's a lot to live up to, Natalia. But you.

[Natalia Testa]

You.

[Angelina Stanford]

You really are. You are the. You are the only student I have ever called my mini me. So there you go. We just have to find you a mini Mr. Banks one day. And don't cover your mouth with laughter. We want to hear that, Natalia. We want to hear you laughing. Somebody listen. Is going to not know you laughed and think this woman's crazy.

[Thomas Banks]

There's a chilling thought that there is. That there could possibly be a mini Mr. Bank. I think the world is badly afflicted enough with just one of me.

[Angelina Stanford]

I wouldn't say just, you know, notice if any of our. Our students are, like, shaming their younger siblings. Don't. Don't look for that. That I didn't know about. That that was the bait and switch of our marriage right there. I'm just kidding. Natalia. Anything else do you want to say about what your reading life is like now? I mean, I get the sense from you that your reading life is very broad. Like me, you're just as likely to be hyper focusing on a whole bunch of nonfiction as you are to be reading the same fiction books over and over. Is there anything in particular you're reading right now?

[Natalia Testa]

I'm. Been on a big Jane Austen kick this spring. I reread all the ones I've read and re read. I'm reading through the ones I haven't read. So right now I'm reading Emma. I'm chasing a connection. So I'm reading lilith by George MacDonald. I'm also reading the Fairy Queen, book three, because that was mentioned in medieval lit, so I had to go read it. And then I was reading Lewis's early letters, like just these random, random things across the board. I'm always re. Listening to God Night. Always. Yeah, I've always. I've been rereading Dorothy and Jack, which is a great biographic amend that you had Gina Delfonso on the podcast discuss that, um, very accessible work. Um, about their friendship. Yeah, yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Mr. Banks, did I ever tell you that Natalia has her own Dorothy Sayers discord? I'm on it. The cool kids are on it. I'm on it.

[Thomas Banks]

I'm obviously not cool, but it's where she.

[Angelina Stanford]

It's where she. She just puts all her amazing research search on Dorothy Sayers. It's. It's quite an accomplishment.

[Thomas Banks]

Oh, very good, Very good.

[Natalia Testa]

The brain dump.

[Angelina Stanford]

It's the. Yes, the Dorothy Sayers brain dump. But it's amazing. No, it was. I think it was you who put me on to all that looking for the Alice in Wonderland stuff. And just in the last, like, I don't know, six months, I started rereading a bunch of Sayers and just the Dorothy.

[Natalia Testa]

Oh, yeah.

[Angelina Stanford]

Alice in Wonderland stuff was everywhere. It's everywhere. And, you know, sorry, I forgot we're on a podcast. This is how Natalia And I just have conversations outside of class, but, you know, did you listen to the episode we did with Peter Hitchens?

[Natalia Testa]

Yes, I did.

[Angelina Stanford]

So then you heard him say that he lives in Oxford, and if Sayers lives in Oxford. And when he said that, when you walk through Oxford, you're literally seeing Alice in Wonderland. You're seeing all the spots that, that helped me to understand so much of what was going on with all of the Oxford authors, particularly Sayers, and why there's so much Alice in Wonderland. It's just. Just because it's everywhere. It's the air they breathe in Oxford.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah. That was really. That was really interesting.

[Natalia Testa]

It's one thing I love about the. The Connie Willis book, to say nothing of the dog. It's Oxford time traveling historians.

[Angelina Stanford]

No, I've read that. That's a lot of fun.

[Natalia Testa]

I have a theory that it's Alice in Wonderland, the whole book, but.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, I love Natalia. I love your theories. When Natalia puts together a theory, I listen because it's always very good and very interesting. Well, Natalia, this has just been a delight. Thank you so much for joining us and, and sharing with our audience about your literary life and loves and, and. And our shared love of Dorothy Sayers. Anything else you want to say before we sign off?

[Natalia Testa]

I. I don't think so.

[Angelina Stanford]

Okay. I want to just make sure you're not gonna message me right after and say, I forgot to talk about this book. No, we get it. We got all the good ones.

[Natalia Testa]

I'm thinking.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, every single pod. We've been doing this for how many years now? After every episode, I. I walk away and think, oh, I forgot to say this. So, I mean, it's just part of it. It's just part of it.

[Natalia Testa]

Yeah. Very excited for all the summer classes and Latin three and all the other classes in the fall, so.

[Angelina Stanford]

Well, we are excited to have you for another year as our student. And again, thanks for joining us us today on this summer day and just have the best time in Italy.

[Thomas Banks]

We, we.

[Angelina Stanford]

We are so excited for you. We want pictures, we want letters. We want postcards. We want volcanic ash in a Ziploc bag that don't end up in Italian jail or anything. But I mean, if.

[Natalia Testa]

Oh, yeah, another thing.

[Thomas Banks]

That's one of the best ways to learn a foreign language to end up in jail is to end up in jail for a few days.

[Angelina Stanford]

There you go. Get that Italian credit. Don't listen to him. That's terrible.

[Thomas Banks]

Bad life advice.

[Angelina Stanford]

All right, so you can find out about all of our summer classes. And maybe you could be Natalia's classmate, too. Did you want to say something?

[Natalia Testa]

I love how the student body writes letters to each other.

[Angelina Stanford]

And that's one of my favorite things to also about you guys, that all of you write long, long letters to each other. We have quite a. Quite a sophisticated mail system going here. You're right. That is another really good. A good practice because y' all write letters where you're talking about ideas and things, digging through ideas with each other.

[Natalia Testa]

It's also like, what do you do last week? It's all. It's all very humane.

[Angelina Stanford]

Yeah, exactly.

[Natalia Testa]

Here. Another of Natalia's theories, but a lot of theories that letter writing is also stories. So letter writing is a form of stories. So no way letter writing will save the world.

[Angelina Stanford]

Oh, I love that.

[Natalia Testa]

No, I absolutely cross road and stuff.

[Angelina Stanford]

Exactly. No, I love that. I love that. All right, so you can head over to HouseOfHumaneLetters.com to see what our summer classes are and to go ahead and write. Register for that and maybe Natalia will end up being your classmate. And next week, we're gonna rebroadcast our Harry Potter series so everyone can remember what we talked about on that podcast series as we move into the classes on book four and book five. So I hope to see a lot of you guys there. Mr. Banks will be reading at the end of this episode a poem that Natalia chose specially for this episode. It's the poem that Harriet Vane starts to write in Gaudy Night, her sonnet. And she can't figure out how to finish it. And so Lord Peter finishes it. And so that will be at the end of this episode. Again, thank you, Natalia. Thank you guys for listening. Shout out to the entire student body of the House of Humane Letters. And until next time, keep crafting your literary life, because stories will save the world. Thank you for listening to the Literary Life podcast brought to you by our loyal patreon sponsors. Visit HouseOfHumaneLetters.com to find Angelina and Thomas and to sign up for our newsletter with podcast schedules and more. And keep up with Cindy at least. Morningtimeformoms.com Join the conversation at our member only Patreon forum or our Facebook discussion group. Visit patreon.com theliterarylife to find out how you can sponsor this podcast and get great bonus content. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review and check out our sister podcasts, the New Mason Jar and the well Read poem. And now for a poem read by poet Thomas.

[Thomas Banks]

Sonnet from Gaudy Night by Dorothy Sayers. Here, then at home, by no more storms, distressed, folding, laborious hands we sit, wings furled. Here in close perfume lies the rose leaf curled. Here the sun stands and knows not east nor west Here no tide runs. We have come last and best from the wide zone in dizzying circles hurled to that still centre where the spinning world sleeps on its axis to the heart of rest. Lay on thy whips, O love, that we, upright, poised on the perilous point, in no lax bed may sleep, as tension at the verberus corps of music sleeps. For if thou spare to smite staggering, we stoop, stooping, fall, dumb and dead and dying, so sleep our sweet sleep no more.