← The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities
The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities
Episode 282: Narcissists Keep Score
00:15:34
In this episode, The Little Shaman the dynamics in relationships with pathologically narcissistic...
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Hey, everybody, it's Shaman Sister Sin, and you're listening to the Meditations and More podcast here on the Little shaman dot com. Just type in that address. It'll take you right to the YouTube channel. Today's episode is brought to you by trans relational healing, shamanspiritcenter.com and littleshaman.org that's me, the little shaman. Today, I wanted to talk to you about something that virtually everyone dealing with narcissistic personalities encounters eventually. And that is that narcissists keep score. This might not sound like that big of a deal at first, right? So narcissists keep score. They like to win. What do you expect? How can they know if they won or not if they don't keep score? Of course they do that. That's all very true, and it seems really obvious. But the reality is the damage this seemingly small, simple thing does to relationships, to situations, to people, is enormous. And it might not be that obvious, at least at first. It needs to be understood how competitive this situation really is. There is no team here here. There is no we here. It's them versus everybody. And that includes you. It especially includes you, as a matter of fact. This isn't just someone who wants to win in certain situations or during big things. This is a person who has to feel like they've won every single, even just perceived interaction they have with other people. And if they don't feel that way, this affects them extremely negatively. It impacts their self worth, their self image, their identity, even their ability to function. For many normal narcissists, this can be hard to understand for people who don't have this problem, which is most people who are not narcissists but When a person has such a fragile identity, such difficulty sustaining their self worth, such issues with toxic shame, and many other serious problems, the idea that someone has gotten the better of them in any way is very triggering. Someone cutting them off in traffic or getting to the red light first, like really, it creates feelings of powerlessness, worthlessness, shame, and they have to do something about that. They are compelled to take action against these feelings, which is why they can seem so antagonistic and aggressive, often for no reason that anybody can figure out. They have a reason. They think you did something to them. If a narcissist feels that you are somehow above them or you are in a better position, somehow, you could only have gotten there by pushing them down. They react by trying to do the same thing back to you, which is why the entire relationship is nothing but seesaw. Battling for a position. Keeping score is one of the ways that they do that. Not only are they extremely fragile, extremely sensitive, eagerly offended, and looking for reasons to get angry or punish other people, this is how they reassure themselves that they're not the bad guy. As we discussed in Stop Trying to be the Good Guy with narcissists, their entire personality framework is dependent on the idea that they're not the bad guy guy or they're not to blame for anything. Keeping score helps them to see that this is true. Yes, I smashed all of your prized possessions, but you know, you left the milk out. We're even. In a way, this is ridiculous, and they do know that. But in another way, a very real way, this is legitimately how they feel. With little or even no empathy, it's not possible for a person to understand the actual impact of the things that that they do to other people. They know it's wrong. Yes, but knowing something is wrong and even knowing why it's wrong. For example, knowing intellectually that it's wrong because it hurts people does not translate into understanding emotional impact. It's just intellectual knowledge. Yes, I hurt you, but you also hurt me. Like we're even. To narcissists, there are no real degrees to things. If you like something, you love it. If you're irritated, you're raging. If you dislike something, you hate it. If you hurt them, you have wounded them so egregiously that it can't be repaired. A stubbed toe is a broken leg, is a broken back is a broken neck. All pain is the same to them. And since they can't understand the pain of other people anyway, what they might have done to you has no even possibility of mattering in this equation at all. You didn't text me back fast enough, and I burned your house down. We're even. We're equal. Also, what you did to me was actually worse, and you caused what I did to you. So really, I actually didn't do anything wrong. This was all you. You're the bad guy. As insane as it sounds, it's important to understand that if you're dealing with a pathologically narcissistic personality, this lack of empathy is very real. It's inherent to the situation, and it is not going away. It's not something they're doing on purpose or that they can't help, Therefore, it's not something they can stop doing. Their behavior is something they can stop doing, and they should be held accountable for the things that they do. But they literally cannot understand your pain or care about it. Don't waste your time trying to make them. They cannot do it. That part of their makeup is missing. It's like trying to force somebody with no eyes to see something they can't. And it doesn't matter how hard you try to get them to do it, or how much you tell them that they could see it if they really wanted to, or if they really tried, they can't. If you believe that the person you're dealing with is really, truly a narcissist, then you need to accept that they genuinely do not have the ability to do this. And because they don't, they won't be able to even understand what you're trying to do. You might as well be trying to get them to see a purple dragon in the sky. They can't see it, and they're only going to view your attempts to convince them that it's there as some kind of trick. You're wasting your time. When you're dealing with someone that keeps score the way that narcissists do, it means that you're dealing with someone who marks every look, every word, every shift in body language, every minute movement of an eyebrow, every silence. They don't like everything they think that you've done wrong, ever. And they're tallying it up into a bigger and bigger and bigger pile. Your list of crimes grows bigger and bigger and bigger, eventually burying you completely. Often before you ever even realize there is a list, and long before you realize how much stuff is actually on that list, by the time you realize what's been happening, you've already been tried, convicted, sentenced. The evidence is all stacked up on their side. And it has been that way for a long Time. You can't get out from under it now. It's too late. They have been putting this all together in their minds with absolutely no pushback, no dissenting voice, no voice of reason. They've convinced themselves completely. This is extremely disorienting and confusing for people to learn that someone has been keeping a running tally of all of the things they think that you have ever done wrong to them just in general. Real, perceived, imagined is not just upsetting, it's completely destabilizing because it's almost impossible to wrap your mind around. This person who claims they care about you has been keeping track of every single negative thing that's ever perceived to have happened, happened between you or that you've ever done, ever. What? What's more often, when you hear the list of supposed grievances, so much of it tends to be misconstrued, misinterpreted, misunderstood, blown out of proportion, or just plain not true. People are shocked and hurt to hear that someone they care about has judged them this way, has been thinking of them so negatively, has built up some such resentment and contempt many times without ever making it known until that very moment. This is a trauma. It really is. And it's a trauma every single time it happens, which can be hundreds or even thousands of times over the course of the relationship. It's a betrayal, it's an invalidation, it's a shock. Trauma is anything that overwhelms your ability to cope. And things like this can be so shocking and so confusing that people cannot cope with them at all, at least at first. And that makes sense. How do you cope with this? Someone you care about has suddenly revealed themselves to be just a crazy person who believes things that are not true about you, about the relationship, about life and the world and just people in general. And they're now punishing you for that. They hate you for that. What exactly is a person supposed to do with these things? Perhaps even more painful too, is when it becomes obvious that this person refuses to clear up any misunderstandings. They refuse to accept any apologies, they refuse to listen to any explanations. They refuse to resolve things in any way. They refuse to feel better or let other people feel better. They refuse to protect the relationship. They refuse to view you positively or give you the benefit of the doubt. They refuse to let anything go. They refuse to do anything or make any effort at all. They simply want to be angry and they want to punish you forever. This is a terrible mischaracterization of a person and it can never be corrected. That's very painful. It's traumatic. It hits the core wound every human being has of not being seen and not being heard. But more than that, maybe it's an assault on reality. It's very destabilizing to continuously be told that you're something you're not. To be reacted to as if you are someone other than who you actually are. Our communities are what keep us grounded. The people in our environment are how we engage in fundamental reality testing. The way they react to us and the reality that they reflect back to us helps validate our own reality, helps ground us in what's really going on. They are how we check ourselves. That's how we validate our reactions, assess our emotions and many other things. If the people around us are reflecting back to us something that contradicts or invalidates our experiences, this is extremely disorienting and destabilizing for people, especially over time. It makes it difficult to know whether how we're reacting to what we're perceiving is accurate. This causes an extreme amount of stress in human beings. It's very damaging, not just to relationships with other people, people, but to people's relationships with themselves. It causes confusion. And for people to start doubting their own ability to perceive reality or discern the truth from their experiences, that's the big danger for gaslighting. The narcissist drive to keep score exacerbates this enormously. These relationships can become nothing but a constant recitation of everything someone has done wrong. Some of it real, maybe, but much of it exaggerated to ridiculous proportions or even flat out imaginary. A never ending stream of negative, horrible, just rotting garbage being thrown on top of somebody all the time with no way to get out from under it or stop it from happening at all. Interestingly, this is probably very similar to the narcissist perceived experience of the relationship as well. They very likely feel the same destabilization and disorientation that you do and for what they believe to be the same reason, because they think they are being seen as something they are not. The big difference here, of course, is that they're fighting the reflections of actual reality and you are fighting delusional mischaracterizations based on the perceptions of a person who mistakes paranoia and fear for intuition. But in terms of how this feels to somebody, that actually doesn't matter very much at all still feels the same. This is why when you try to tell them what this is doing to you, very often they just respond with this is what's happening to them. It's very possible they believe that after all, the reflections they receive from their environment don't match how they seeing things most of the time either. The fact that they're not seeing things clearly once again has no impact on how this feels to them. It's very important to understand that, because it helps to illustrate how futile trying to work with this really is. They are just as entrenched in their way of seeing things and their beliefs about what they're experiencing as anybody else. More so, in fact, because to change any of these things does not just represent a change in point of view for a narcissist, it represents a fundamental threat to their identity as well as a loss of power and control. To put it simply, if they look at things differently, if they entertain other perspectives, you won and they lost. You succeeded in manipulating and gaslighting them into believing something that's not true. You fooled them and they fell for it. This is very sad to many people, and it can be extremely difficult to accept that somebody really is this way. That this person is simply not willing to do anything differently. Even in the face of complete and total failure, even just simple things like letting the other person talk. Not only are they not willing to do anything differently, they double down even harder on doing the same failed thing to prove that they're not wrong. They never see that this refusal to change or evolve or grow is the problem. If you're dealing with a narcissist who is keeping score, and if you're dealing with a narcissist of any kind, you are dealing with that. It's important to remember that their thoughts and opinions don't define reality. It's hard and it's hurtful, but you can't force them to change these things. They think what they think, they believe what they believe, they feel what they feel they're going to do what they're going to do. Nothing is going to change that. As you very likely already know. The only thing you can do is hold on to your reality and decide if you can have someone in your life who lives in a completely different reality than you do. Most people find that the answer to that is no. Hope this clears a few things up for you. As always, I look forward to your comments, questions and suggestions, so please keep those coming. I take appointments online, over the phone, via text, via messenger, via email, and through Skype and Zoom for clients worldwide. So if you are interested in Speaking with me one on one, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. I have several books in publication. So if you are interested in picking up a copy of any or all of those, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. I teach workshops, seminars and clinics, so if you're interested in seeing what we are running this month, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. And if you are interested in joining our support group with access to exclusive content, weekly support meetings, and more, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that as well. You have been listening to the Meditations and More podcast here on the little shaman.com brought to you by Trans Relational Healing, shamanspiritcenter.com and littleshaman.org that's me, little Shaman. May the Great Spirit bless you. Have a beautiful day.