← The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities
The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities
Episode 290: Dealing With Narcissists: You Can't Win (Here's What You CAN Do)
00:15:35
In this episode, The Little Shaman discusses understanding dynamics when dealing with pathologica...
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Hey everybody, it's Shaman Sister Sin and you are listening to the Meditations and More podcast brought to you by Translational Healing, shamanspiritcenter.com and littleshaman.org that's me, little Shaman. Today I wanted to talk to you about something that applies universally to all situations and relationships involving pathologically narcissistic personalities, regardless of what kind. And that is that you cannot win. What do we mean by that? We mean that you can't win anything at all, ever. Now you might be thinking, oh, come on now. You're always telling us blanket statements are not reasonable or logical. I do, and it's true. This is not a blanket statement. It's an objective fact based on the way that this personality structure functions and the drives and the motives behind that personality structure. You will never get what you want from this person because the only way that they can feel whole and successful in the relationship is by not giving it to you. Does that sound contradictory? That's because it is, but only because the way that you view relationships and the way narcissists view them is not the same. You see relationships as reciprocal situations where give and take is balanced, where people want to give to each other, where sacrifice and compromise are just part of the whole thing within reason, they are to be expected. You see relationships as places where people are safe and supported, where you lean on each other and lift each other up. There's trust, kindness, compassion, understanding, empathy. That is not how narcissists see relationships of any kind. Narcissists see all interactions with other human beings as dangerous engagements, competitions where they will be taken advantage of somehow. If they don't protect themselves at all times. They need other people. Yes, but they don't trust other people. This creates a very stressful internal landscape for them. How do they get what they need without getting hurt or taken advantage of or otherwise harmed somehow? By never bending, never compromising, never empathizing, never listening, never giving an inch to them. This is the only way to have a relationship. People are out to do you dirty from the get go, and nobody is an exception to that. So they have to protect themselves at all costs. It doesn't matter that you haven't done anything to them. You will. In fact, you probably already have. They just don't know what it is yet. Your evil will be revealed to them in time. So they're going to get to drop on you and just assume that you are evil, like immediately. That way they can't be caught off guard and hurt by your treachery. Like they assume the bad thing is coming and they do a preemptive strike because clearly it's coming, because how is it not? The fact that this actually harms innocent people does not occur to narcissists, because to narcissists there are no innocent people. And certainly the people they are interacting with are not those. Look at how rotten they're always being treated. Innocent people. There's a joke. No such thing. This is the basic mindset that you're dealing with when you're dealing with narcissists. And it's the same whether they see themselves as these clever masterminds outwitting all the other manipulators, or as pathetic victims valiantly trying to rise above and survive. The core premise here does not change, no matter what. Other people are bad and I must protect myself at all times. Virtually all of their behavior springs from this pathologically fearful orientation to the world. This is where the need to win comes in, because it really is the need to dominate. Narcissists tend to believe that this is how power works. And you need power because if you have no power, you're weak. And if you're weak, you can't protect yourself, you won't survive. Right? Their worldview is one where all the people are striving constantly to dominate and overpower and impose their will on other people. There are no nice people, There are no good people. There are no innocent people. There are no people that don't have rotten motives, period. Many narcissists cannot even conceive of people who wouldn't do that. And the ones who can conceive of that tend to see it as like a laughable will weakness. There is no longing in these personalities to be vulnerable and share themselves with others per se. I mean, that's like saying a person who is involuntarily swimming with sharks longs to have a bleeding wound. No, they do not. Any glimpses into this person's vulnerability that you do get might be real, but they're almost always going to be followed by retaliation or punishment because they're ashamed of their, quote, weakness. And they need you to know that you cannot exploit that, so you have to be punished for seeing it. This is not a window, it's a door. And you don't want what is behind it. There's nothing there but an 80 pound attack dog that you cannot get past. It's like the Terminator. It doesn't get tired, it doesn't feel sympathy, and it will never stop once the target has been identified. You've seen too much and now they got to get you. There is no reasoning with this and no getting out of it. It just. It is what it is. That is how these personalities work. They may believe that they have a desire to be vulnerable and be seen for who they really are and things like that, but the reality is they don't. Or if they do, they can't tolerate it. So it doesn't matter. They have to punish you if you see the vulnerability, because that's exploiting a weakness. They got to stop that from being true. Now you might be thinking, but that's not fair though. I didn't go looking for their vulnerability. I didn't do anything. And you're right, it's not fair. But these personalities are not concerned with what's fair, only with what works. Listen, you can't be worried about being fair to the people who are trying to kill you. Their whole worldview is self preservation. And they are so consumed with this that everything looks like a threat. The only way to address threats is to stomp them out. And that's what they do. They dominate every single interaction as much as they possibly can, in whatever way they possibly can. Whether that's through weaponized helplessness, antagonism, contrarianism, physical violence, passive aggression, being sneaky, lying, smear campaign, whatever works to ensure that they come out on top and are therefore the survivor in this binary chess match blood sport that they think that they're in. It's important to remember how rigid this worldview and resulting belief system really are. This person believes they have literally seen billions of examples over decades that reinforcements these things. They believe everything they see proves them right. There is no way to address this in any successful fashion because there's no way to get them to adopt another perspective. They see this as manipulative, as if you're trying to get them to gaslight themselves. As a person who does not share this worldview, your tools in this area will not work. They are not suited for the job. You are trying to actually hear and be heard. You are trying to communicate and be understood. You are trying to resolve an issue. You're trying to understand them. This person is not doing any of those things. If you don't believe that, think about conversations you've had with the narcissist in your life. Forget about whether they agreed or they disagreed or they lied or whatever you know was the thing. Did they ever once really appear to be trying to understand anything you were saying or your motives or your perspectives at all? No. Right. Because they don't care. That's not their goal. Their goal is winning. And the way they win is by making sure you don't get what you want, whatever that is. They make sure they don't actually hear anything you say, don't compromise with you in any way, don't do anything you want, and don't allow you to, quote, manipulate them out of their position or what they think. Think about that for a second. What that actually means, what this person believes that listening to what you are saying would be legitimately harmful to them, or that understanding or God forbid, being influenced by it is you manipulating them. This means they have to make sure that does not happen. You will never change their mind or convince them of anything, ever. That's not how this goes. The more you try to do that, the more sure they become that you're just trying to screw them over and win. And you're like, I'm just trying to have a relationship with you. That's all. I just don't want there to be all these problems because that will end our relationship. Like, what part of this do you, like, not understand? The answer is all of it. They only understand the winning and losing part. The fact that this makes no sense doesn't matter because what exactly are you winning? That can't really be explained or defined by narcissists. But losing is easy to define. Losing is compromising and being forced out of your position and being dominated and bullied and you know, whatever else they think it is. You can see why relationships do not survive these situations. How can they? These personalities are literally programmed to hate and feel harmed by and refuse to do the basic things that make communication between people successful. Anyone who has ever asked a narcissist, for example, to be more respectful or be more fair or be a little more decent has been told right to their face that they don't deserve that. Or they've played that rotten game where the narcissist comes up with all these really quote, unquote fair and logical reasons why they don't have to be fair or decent or respectful either to other people in general or to you in particular, or both. This is pointless and frankly, it's gross. These are grown ass people we are talking about here. But as difficult as this kind of stuff might be to hear, sometimes it is very valuable information. When you ask an adult to be more respectful or fair and they give you reasons why they don't have to do that, you should believe them. Not that they don't have to, because they do, but that they're not going to. Because they're not. Because what exactly is the argument here? It's an easy trap to fall into, but you got to try not to, because the reality is there is no argument for not treating people with basic respect, fairness and decency. Anyone who thinks that there is is probably somebody you don't want to be around. Now, there are some people who don't feel that the narcissist in their lives deserves basic fairness or respect, and that's understandable. They also probably don't want to be around them either, to be fair. But it just might not be the flex that some people think it is. There really is no winning in out assholing or out mistreating somebody. In some ways you could even say the narcissist wins in that scenario because now the other person is acting like them. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do, but the truth is, acting outside your character is almost never a win in the bigger picture. Also, the plain truth is these personalities love nothing more than being validated in their belief that everyone is as miserable and nasty as they are. That is exactly what they are looking for and in many situations is what they're like trying to do. They're trying to create that. Then they have a justification to act the way that they do and to be 10 times worse, because now you really deserve it. Getting in a pissing match with someone who has no limits and no scruples is usually a pretty bad idea. It is a much bigger win to leave them in the rotten little world that they have created for themselves. That is perhaps the one place you can win and do win in these situations. No, you might not feel like you won in any ego or emotionally validating way in the moment, but justice often does come anyway. As narcissists get older, what we tend to see is that fewer and fewer people are willing to tolerate them. Their tricks don't work anymore, their stories don't sell anymore, and the maturity gap between them and other adults is just too big. Many of them end up alone because of this or being forced to rely on people who hate them. This doesn't always happen, but it does happen a lot. I have talked to probably thousands of people by now. I hear it all the time. Regardless, though, you can't win in your direct interactions with narcissists in the way that most people would think of winning. You can win at life in a way that they cannot. That's much more important. To be honest, beating a crazy person at the crazy game again. Not that much of a flex. You know what I mean. These personalities will never know love or trust or joy or bonding or true peace. Ever. And you can. You will. You can be hurt, yes, but you can heal. You can survive, you can thrive. You can come out stronger, smarter, more open, more loving, more self aware, bigger, badder, better. These are things pathologically narcissistic personalities will never achieve as long as they live. And these are the things that matter. The narcissist greatest trick is weaponizing your own ego and emotions against you in true parasitic form. They don't even have their own weapons to hit you with. It really is all in you. Don't let your idea of winning be defined by someone who thinks that admitting they made a wrong turn is a catastrophic event of failure and shame. It's ridiculous. You're playing in a different league. You are bigger than that. Don't let this person make you forget it. I hope this clears a few things up for you. As always, I look forward to your comments, questions and suggestions, so please keep those coming. I take appointments online, over the phone, via text, via messenger, via email, through Zoom and through Skype for clients worldwide. So if you are interested in speaking with me one on one, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. I teach workshop seminars and clinics, so if you're interested in seeing what we got going on, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. I have several books in publication, so if you're interested in picking up a copy of any or all of those, you can find them on Amazon.com or littleshaman.org and if you are interested in joining our support group with access to exclusive content, weekly support meetings and more, you can do that through littleshaman.org as well. You have been listening to the Meditations and More podcast brought to you by trans relational healing, shamanspiritcenter.com and littleshaman.org that's me, the Little Shaman. May the Great Spirit bless you. Have a beautiful day.