Episode 292: Stop Trying To Have Safe Contact With Narcissists

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Podcast: The Little Shaman: On Narcissists & Toxic Personalities
Episode: 292 – Stop Trying To Have Safe Contact With Narcissists
Host: The Little Shaman
Date: April 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, The Little Shaman explores the persistent and understandable urge many people have to find a “safe” way to interact with narcissists and other unsafe, antisocial personalities. Drawing on vivid analogies and her own experience working with survivors, she firmly debunks the idea that genuine safety can be achieved through strategy with those invested in harm or chaos. Instead, she urges listeners to accept the realities of risk; offers simple, actionable tools for self-protection; and explains why attempts at safe engagement are not only futile, but also emotionally harmful.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Futility of Seeking Safety with Narcissists ([01:01]-[03:30])

• Analogy of Safety Mitigation: The host begins by comparing risk mitigation in ordinary life (e.g., cutting bagels carefully, double-checking parachutes, handling wild animals) to the mistaken belief that “safe” interaction with a narcissist is possible.
• Limits of Control: “Risk mitigation is directly related to how much control you have over the situation. If you can't control all of the factors, all of the variables, you cannot mitigate the risk.” ([03:30])
• Human Wildcards: Unlike physical risks, interpersonal dangers with narcissists cannot be made safe, because humans “are the wildest animal of all” and unsafe people cannot be controlled.

Memorable Analogy: The Turd with No Clean End ([05:00])

• The Little Shaman drives her point home with a striking metaphor:

  “The best analogy for this is trying to pick up a turd by the clean end… Can you pick up a turd by the clean end? No, you cannot. A turd does not have a clean end.” ([05:00])

• This comical but potent image illustrates how there simply is no way to avoid contamination when dealing with unsafe people.

Why Logic and Theory Don’t Help ([06:30]–[09:00])

• Many seek theoretical strategies to outmaneuver narcissists, but “life is not a theory… Risking your safety on a theory is not a good idea, especially when speaking to those with actual experience will show you that it doesn’t actually work anyway.” ([06:45])
• The erroneous mindset of “where there’s a will, there’s a way” is called out as dangerous in this context.

Unpredictability and Manipulation ([09:30]–[14:00])

• You Can’t Outsmart Them: Attempting to predict or control narcissists’ reactions is doomed, as they don’t operate with typical logic or empathy.

  “Narcissists don't always do what you think they're going to do. And sometimes what you think they would do is not what they would tell you they're going to do if they were being honest.” ([10:15])

• Different Reality: Narcissists lack the capacity for perspective-taking that most people use to anticipate the reactions of others. This disparity means strategies based on rationality or empathy fail.

  “You're also probably looking at things in a more holistic way, whereas narcissistic personalities are typically looking at right now. Will this benefit me in the long run? I don't know or care if I'm a narcissist because I'm not thinking about that.” ([11:30])

Acceptance & Surrender ([14:00]–[17:30])

• No Clean Solution:

  “If the situation cannot be predicted so that it can be prepared for and it can't be controlled so that the danger can be mitigated, then it can't be made safe.” ([14:00])

• Intentional Contrariness: Just like a wild animal that avoids capture, a narcissist’s destructiveness is often deliberate – especially resisting anything that would lessen their control.

  “They literally blatantly refuse to compromise or work together. It's as simple and as final as that.” ([15:45])

• No Way to Make Them Understand:

  “You can't make the lion understand that you're not trying to hurt him. He sees a threat to his power and control and therefore his safety.” ([16:30])

• The host compares narcissists to “loaded guns,” always potentially dangerous.

Actionable Tools When Contact is Unavoidable ([17:30]–[20:00])

• What You Can Control:
  • Your own reactions
  • Refusing to argue or take bait
  • Exiting interactions

  “They don't sound like a lot. They are massive, massive tools. It's all you really need to be able to do. To be perfectly honest with you, it really is.” ([18:15])

• What You Cannot Do:
  • Make them listen, understand, care, or do anything against their will
• If contact is necessary:
  • Interact as little as possible (“grey rock” method)
  • Process interactions with healthy outsiders or keep a journal
  • Practice reality-testing with trusted, grounded people

The Importance of Self-Care & Support ([20:00]–[22:00])

• Destabilization & Gaslighting:

  "It is extremely destabilizing to deal with someone who is literally in a different reality than you are. This is how the gaslighting works.” ([20:30])

• Protect by Treating Them as Dangerous:

  “It's kind of like that old saying about firearm safety. Treat all guns as loaded and you will be safer. These personalities are loaded guns and as long as you remember that you're always going to be careful.” ([21:30])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On fruitless effort:

  “Trying to find a safe way to interact with an unsafe person is a fruitless endeavor wherein a person is trying to get something from a source that cannot give it to them.” ([06:00])

• On control:

  “Dealing with other human beings is no different in that regard. Humans are not objects that can be controlled.” ([04:00])

• On empathy and belief:

  “They're unable to conceptualize how other people will feel… That's why there are so often all these conversations where you're saying stuff like, do you understand how what you're saying sounds? And don't you realize how people are going to take that? Or do you not see that other people don't do things like that? And the answer is no, they do not.” ([12:45])

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• [01:01] – Introduction to minimizing risks and context of risk in daily life
• [03:30] – Explanation of risk mitigation and its limitations with humans
• [05:00] – The “picking up a turd by the clean end” analogy
• [09:30] – Why manipulation and prediction do not work with narcissists
• [14:00] – Acceptance: Some things cannot be made safe
• [17:30] – What is (and isn’t) in your control; actionable takeaways
• [20:00] – Reality-testing, the destabilizing effects of contact, and strategies for grounding
• [21:30] – Final analogy: Treat narcissists as loaded guns for self-protection

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Conclusion

The Little Shaman’s message is crystal clear: There are no strategies, hacks, or precautions that make interaction with narcissists truly safe. Repeated attempts to do so only lead to frustration and harm. Instead, know your limits, set boundaries, prioritize minimal contact, embrace strong self-protection tools, and always remember reality testing and support. Acceptance of the fundamental unpredictability and danger of engaging with those who are pathologically narcissistic is, paradoxically, the safest path of all.

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Transcript

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Hey everybody, it's Shaman Sister Sin and you are listening to the Meditations and More podcast today. I wanted to speak with you about something that many people engage in when dealing with narcissists, and that is trying to find a safe way to interact with narcissists and other antisocial types of personalities. Trying to find a way to do something that could hurt you is always the best plan, and it's the natural thing to do. We should always take precautions and do things in a way that minimizes danger and risk. You don't cut through the bagel while you're holding it in your hand. You don't leave the handles of boiling pots sticking out on the stove where somebody's going to wreck into it and knock it over. You carry scissors and knives pointing down, or you're supposed to. By doing that, you are attempting to minimize the amount of injury that could be caused if there's an accident. There are some things that are more dangerous than other things. When skydiving, for example, people double and triple check their parachutes. They take every precaution they can to make sure that this dangerous activity is the least dangerous it can possibly be. Same with bungee jumping or diving with sharks. These things are very dangerous, but with proper care and management, they can be made less dangerous. They can't be made safe. And there can still be accidents because the danger cannot be mitigated completely. In the end, you're still jumping out of an airplane from thousands of feet in the air. Like that's dangerous. And then there are some things that are always extremely dangerous, no matter how careful you are Defusing a bomb, for example, confronting a wild animal. Precaution and preparation will only take you so far in these situations because there's a wild card element to the situation that cannot be controlled. The only way to completely mitigate the dangers of these kinds of situations is not to engage in them at all. Which brings us to narcissists. People are always looking for safer ways to interact with narcissists. There are hours upon hours of content pontificating about all the ways and all the things to theoretically do this. And maybe in theory it would work. But life is not a theory. It's real. And in the real world, risking your safety on a theory is not a good idea, especially when speaking to those with actual experience will show you that it doesn't actually work anyway. Lots of things should work in theory. Many of them still don't. As you can see from our examples, risk mitigation is directly related to how much control you have over the situation. Risk mitigation is about control of variables. If you can't control all of the factors, all of the variables, you cannot mitigate the risk. This is why, for example, confronting wild animals usually involves darting them with tranquilizers or otherwise making it so that they can be controlled. Otherwise it's just too dangerous. Dealing with other human beings is no different in that regard. Humans are not objects that can be controlled. They have all their own feelings, all their own thoughts, all their own beliefs, motives, agendas. They do what they do, regardless of your preparations and predictions and precautions. Because of that, the risk of dealing with them will never be able to be completely mitigated. That's just not how it works. Humans are the wildest animal of all because of that. To put it very bluntly, there are no safe ways to engage with unsafe people. It just is what it is. If someone is choosing to be unsafe, there's no way to mitigate that. You can keep trying to find these ways and it's going to keep not working. The best analogy for this is trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. That sounds silly, and you know, I'm being a little funny here, but think about it. Can you pick up a turd by the clean end? No, you cannot. A turd does not have a clean end. You can look at this situation any way you want for as long as you want, and a successful solution will not materialize because what you're trying to do is not possible. Like trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Trying to find a safe way to interact with an unsafe person is a fruitless endeavor wherein a person is trying to get something from a source that cannot give it to them. Wanting this to be possible has no impact on whether it actually is or not. Where there's a will, there's a way does not apply to everything. It just doesn't. Unfortunately, we hear that all the time when it comes to narcissists. There's gotta be a way. There has to be a solution. That's admirable and it's understandable to feel that way, but it's also false. There doesn't have to be a way, There does not have to be a solution. Some things just can't be done. It's just how it is. And the faster we can accept that, the less time and less energy we will waste on trying to pick up this turd from its non existent clean end. The idea that there's always a way to do it has value, but not in this context. Because we're not talking about shipping a car overseas or refolding a map the right way. We're talking about trying to maneuver a human being who has all their own motivations, and specifically a human being who is invested in being controlling and contrary. Literally on purpose, just to make sure you don't get what you want. There is not always a way to do it in that situation because the other person involved is making sure that it cannot be done. Despite what some people may believe, there's no real way to circumvent that. You can get reactions out of narcissists. Sure, you can provoke them, you can force them, force action out of them, but it can be difficult to predict exactly what those actions are going to be, despite them having a pretty rigid internal infrastructure in many ways. Because of that, narcissists can be very difficult to maneuver or manipulate. In order to successfully manipulate or maneuver another person, they need to react how you want them to. Narcissists don't always do what you think they're going to do. And sometimes what you think they would do is not what they would tell you they're going to do if they were being honest. As an example, you might think, well, if I do A, then the narcissist will do B. Because of C. However, you might be misjudging how much the narcissist actually cares about C or how they're looking at the situation overall. For instance, many people believe narcissists will automatically do the thing that preserves their image or benefits them. This is theoretically correct. However, if you don't know exactly what they think that would be and why. You could be totally wrong about what specific action they're going to take. It might be very obvious to you what action would preserve their image or benefit them the most. But you're not a narcissist. You don't look at things the way they do. You don't think about things the way that they do. As you can tell from their behavior, their ideas about stuff are often weird, unrealistic, unreasonable, or just plain wrong. You're also probably looking at things in a more holistic way, whereas narcissistic personalities are typically looking at right now. Will this benefit me in the long run? I don't know or care if I'm a narcissist because I'm not thinking about that. I, I need benefit right now. I can't think about how my kids are going to see me when they're adults. If I do this right now, when they're five and six, that might as well be a million years away in another galaxy right at this particular moment. So while you are likely correct about what the right answer or response would be here in order to achieve what, you know, their goals or whatever are, they might not actually see that. You are probably also coming from a place of empathy and mentalization, meaning you are able to understand how people outside of you or the situation might feel about it or like where they're coming from and how they're going to see it. These personalities cannot do that. They're unable to conceptualize how other people will feel, where the other people are coming from, or how like stuff is going to look to them. That's why there are so often all these conversations where you're saying stuff like do you understand how what you're saying sounds? And don't you realize how people are going to take that? Or do you not see that other people don't do things like that? And the answer is no, they do not. Therefore, trying to maneuver narcissist relies on you relying on them to have the capability to act in accordance with skills and abilities that they don't actually actually have. They can't be predicted in this way because of that. If the situation cannot be predicted so that it can be prepared for and it can't be controlled so that the danger can be mitigated, then it can't be made safe. Situations with narcissists cannot be predicted with any real degree of accuracy other than to know that it's probably going to turn out bad. And they cannot be controlled because not only is this person a human wildcard, but they are intentionally contrary and combative. They literally blatantly refuse to compromise or work together. It's as simple and as final as that. It's like if the lion knew that you were trying to shoot him with the tranquilizer dart and so he refused to go into the space where you could hit him because he refuses to cooperate with that, even though you're actually trying to help him. There's nothing you can do here. It's maddening, but it's what it is. You can't make the lion understand that you're not trying to hurt him. He sees a threat to his power and control and therefore his safety. It sounds so stupid, but pathologically narcissistic people work the same way. There's no way to make them understand they're not going to believe you. And there's no way they're going to surrender control like that anyway. Not only does their ego summarily reject that, but it's perceived as a threat. If someone gets you down, they're going to go right for the throat, like that's what these personalities believe. And nothing's going to change that. It just. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with a narcissist. You got to stop trying to find a safe way to interact with this person. There isn't one. The only thing you can do is accept the risk as part of the interaction and use what tools that you have to deal with it. Obviously, the best tool is like, just don't, right? But if you choose to do so anyway, or if you're forced to do so for some reason, remember what you can do. You can control your own reactions. You can refuse to argue or take debate, and you can exit the interaction. Those don't sound like a lot. They are massive, massive tools. It's all you really need to be able to do. To be perfectly honest with you, it really is. It's also a good idea to remember what you cannot do. You can't make them listen. You can't make them understand. You can't make them care. You can't make them do anything. Anything. You're only going to frustrate yourself trying and it doesn't work anyway. Interact as little as possible. Practice the gray rock method. When you do find someone to process these interactions with or write them down in a journal. Later, try to keep yourself grounded and engage in reality testing with other people if you possibly can. Other people who are not narcissists, who you trust, for example. We do it in the support group all the time. It is extremely destabilizing to deal with someone who is literally in a different reality than you are. This is how the gaslighting works. It's very important to make sure you are taking care of yourself in these ways. In the end, situations with unsafe people cannot be made safe. It's kind of like that old saying about firearm safety. Treat all guns as loaded and you will be safer. These personalities are loaded guns and as long as you remember that you're always going to be careful. It won't always be enough, but it's better than nothing. I hope this clears a few things up for you. As always, I look forward to your comments, questions and suggestions, so please keep those coming. I take appointments online, over the phone, via text, via messenger, via email, and through Skype and Zoom for clients worldwide. So if you're interested in speaking with me one on one, you can visit little shaman.org to do that. I teach workshop seminars and clinics, so if you're interested in seeing what we are running, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that. I have several books in publication, so if you're interested in picking up a copy of any or all of those, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that or find them on Amazon.com and if you're interested in joining our support group with access to exclusive content, weekly support meetings, and more, you can visit littleshaman.org to do that as well. All of these things are also available in the links in the information section of this video. You've been listening to the Meditations and More podcasts brought to you by Trans relational Healing and littleshaman.org. that's me, little Shaman. May the Great Spirit bless you. Have a beautiful day.