The Lord of Spirits Podcast: "As Delivered by Angels"

Date: June 10, 2022
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Main Theme:
The Nature of Textual Authority in Orthodox Christian Tradition
Exploring how sacred texts—biblical and related literature—function authoritatively in the Orthodox Church, their origins, how “canon” is formed, and how we should relate to authoritative texts versus tradition. The hosts delve into the ritual, liturgical, and historical reality of “canonicity,” contrast modern misconceptions, and explain why Orthodox understanding is fundamentally different from Western (especially Protestant) approaches to the Bible and tradition.

Episode Overview

• Purpose: To explain what makes a text (such as the Bible) authoritative in Orthodox Christianity, how canons emerge, and how pre- and post-Christian communities use and receive texts in their religious life.
• Key Questions:
  • What is the nature of “authority” in religious texts?
  • How do texts become “canonical,” and what does that mean?
  • What’s the relationship between Scripture, other writings (apocrypha, fathers), and tradition in the Orthodox Church?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Textual Authority? (01:07–06:15)

• Authority isn't about beliefs or ideas: Both hosts stress early that ancient texts functioned ritually, not as systems of beliefs. A text’s authority was in its use and participation, not as an “object of belief.”
  • “It’s not about here’s a set of truths that are to be believed... here's the correct procedure. Here's the correct way to do this, way to tell the story, the correct way to do the ritual.” — Fr. Stephen (15:25)
• Ancient texts as living rituals: Examples include the Babylonian Enuma Elish and Egyptian Book of the Dead, both enacted ritually, not analyzed as mythology as we do now.
  • Example: The Enuma Elish was celebrated in annual rituals to maintain cosmic order (07:53–09:29).
  • The written form becomes a “monument”—it stabilizes a tradition or ritual, not just a record (10:38–12:53).

2. Scripture Within Community: Ritual, Correction, and Variation (13:10–19:10)

• The Torah is a “ritual manual,” not a law code: The Torah gave procedures for living and worshipping in the community; beliefs are not the focus. Ritual precedes narrative, e.g., the Passover instructions (Exodus).
  • “It’s not a play by play of what happened. It’s a text within a ritual context.” — Fr. Andrew (17:29)
  • “This is not a list of things you’re supposed to do and not to do. It’s, ‘Okay, this bad thing happened, here’s what we do about that.’” — Fr. Andrew (24:56)
• Legacy in modern liturgics: Parallels are drawn to the Orthodox Liturgikon with its instructions to priests—ritual action and moral instructions serve the liturgy (28:32–29:59).

3. Canon Formation is Descriptive, Not Prescriptive (Topically Throughout Episode; cf. 77:09–86:16, 163:00–164:49)

• Canons emerge organically:
  • There is never a council or cabal that chooses the canon; rather, the canon “describes the reality” of which texts communities have been using, reading, and considering authoritative.
    • “This is always descriptive, and not prescriptive.” — Fr. Stephen (83:56)
    • Example: Ancient Jewish and later Christian communities inherit and use what is already occurring.
• The Western & Biblical Canons are not lists decreed or enforced from above:
  • Like the “Western Canon” in literature or the “canon” in fandoms, it’s about which texts have been formative, not which ones are supposed to be formative (77:38–84:47).
• Canons differ between communities:
  • There are different canonical lists in the ancient Jewish, Ethiopian, Alexandrian, and later Christian worlds (100:19–101:21).

4. The Danger of “Textual Fundamentalism” (43:41–46:54; 174:48–175:44)

• Sola Scriptura and Rabbinic Scribe Models:
  • Protestant and post-Temple Judaism place authority in the text itself, in contrast to both ancient Israel and Orthodox Christianity, where authority is in God and the experience of God, mediated through the texts and the living community.
    • “The authority is never in the text itself, it's always Christ who is mediated through the text.” — Fr. Stephen (44:43)
• Authority in experience, not mediation:
  • Prophets functioned without reference to the written Torah because they experienced God directly (38:26–41:00).

5. Authorship & the Organic Emergence of Scripture (48:18–55:43)

• Authorship as irrelevant:
  • Orthodox tradition acknowledges that the books of the Old Testament were written, compiled, and edited over centuries by unknown authors.
    • “It does not matter who wrote the books… because it has been all… how this works.” — Fr. Stephen (69:27)
  • Church fathers often believed in Mosaic origin of the Torah, but not that he wrote every word (65:06–67:47).
• Reception is what gives authority:
  • The form and content that the community receives is sanctified by the Holy Spirit over time—not by signature or time stamp.

6. Canonization of the New Testament (110:19–113:11)

• No voting, no sudden decisions:
  • The 4 Gospels, Paul’s epistles, and most of the NT were circulating and accepted early (by 150 AD at latest).
  • Disputes or doubts were over books unfamiliar or unavailable to particular communities, not over arguments about inclusion (117:00–119:13).
• Mutual recognition and acceptance:
  • When Christian communities encountered one another, differences in canons led to mutual enrichment, not rejections (121:09–121:24).

7. Category of Apocrypha and “Private” Literature (137:32–144:15 and 154:13–156:19)

• Three categories of texts in Orthodox usage:
  • 1) Publicly read in Church (canonical Scripture)
  • 2) Read in private for spiritual edification (apocrypha, fathers, etc.)
  • 3) Not to be read (heretical or disapproved texts)
• Apocrypha ≠ heretical or suppressed:
  • They are edifying, often encouraged, but not read liturgically. Example: Shepherd of Hermas “ought to be read, but not in the church” (142:25–143:55)
• Monasteries preserve ‘non-canonical’ texts out of spiritual purpose (155:15–155:53).

8. Living Tradition and the Role of the Holy Spirit (163:00–166:49)

• Tradition is not transmission of raw data or a secret code:

  • It is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
  • The received canon, liturgy, and doctrines are recognized by the Church in retrospect, not constructed in anticipation or as a checklist.
    • “So what holds authority in my church community is...what holds authority in my church community… it's descriptive. This is just the case.” — Fr. Stephen (165:04)

• No office, synod, or group determines canon or tradition:

  • If a synod tried to declare a new canon, the Church’s gradual, Spirit-guided reception or rejection would ultimately decide (166:01–166:29).

• Church councils and validity:

  • Reception history is decisive. The Council of Florence “looked” like an ecumenical council but was never received—so not ecumenical.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• [15:25, Fr. Stephen:] “It's not about...truths to be believed...it's that here’s the correct procedure. Here’s the correct way to do this.”
• [31:12, Fr. Andrew:] “Liturgical change, adapting to the particular needs of the context. Yeah, it's okay, everybody.”
• [44:43, Fr. Stephen:] “The authority is never in the text itself, it’s always Christ who is mediated through the text.”
• [83:56, Fr. Stephen:] “This is always descriptive, and not prescriptive.”
• [87:00, Fr. Stephen:] “There has never been in the Orthodox Church any council, any emperor, any...group... who went out and decreed, ‘These are the canonical books.’”
• [107:37, Fr. Stephen:] [On Josephus and his hyperbolic canon witness] “The baby comes out from its mother’s womb, recognizes the authority of these 22 books, and no others. Recognizes them specifically. It’s the proclamation of God...”
• [163:17, Fr. Stephen:] “We're talking about the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, which is an ongoing thing.”
• [179:43, Fr. Andrew:] “When we attempt to create a system that is the basis for how authority is assigned, then that's a kind of trying to get a handle on things that is actually stepping away from the way that the Orthodox tradition actually works... The task is to try to understand the tradition...”
• [191:39, Fr. Stephen:] “The reality of the churches that exist, the reality of what the Holy Spirit has done through history, the reality of the lives lived by the saints before us. All of that reality is our basis. And then we take that reality and we apply it in reality.”

Important Timestamps

• [01:07] – Introductions, textual authority, ancient texts
• [07:53] – Babylonian & Egyptian ritual texts: ritual vs. mythology
• [13:10] – Bible as ritual/liturgical text; authority & correction
• [31:12] – Liturgical adaptation—Deuteronomy’s context
• [43:41] – Rabbinic Judaism & Protestant sola scriptura models
• [48:18] – Authorship and textual history, why it doesn’t matter
• [83:56] – What is a canon? Canon as description/recognition, not rule
• [110:19] – New Testament canon: organic, never voted
• [137:32] – Non-canonical, apocryphal literature: private vs. public use
• [154:13] – Reception and transmission, role of monasteries in preserving
• [163:00] – Holy Tradition as living, Spirit-filled, not data-transmission
• [179:43] – Critique of systematizers and the need for spiritual humility
• [191:39] – Final word: Reality, tradition, and living the Orthodox faith

Tone and Style

• Candid, conversational, mixing scholarship, personal experience, and wit.
• Frequent asides, humor (especially about pop culture and wrestling), but always returning to substance.
• Critical of ideology, legalism, and rationalist/systematic approaches to tradition.

Summary Takeaways

• Orthodox canonicity is about how texts function liturgically, communally, and spiritually—not who wrote them or when.
• Authority comes from Christ, experienced in the Church by the Holy Spirit, mediated through—but not limited to—canonical texts.
• Tradition is a living thing, not a system. The canon, councils, and saints become authoritative by reception and continued life in Christ’s Church, not by decree or theory.
• Orthodoxy resists both materialist and idealist distortions. Reality—of text, worship, life, and salvation—is always the ground.
• Humility, patience, and participation in the actual, received life of the Church is the path—not systems, not control, not “correct opinions” for their own sake.

For more:

• Listen to the episode or find more resources at Ancient Faith’s Lord of Spirits page.
• See Dr. Jeannie Constantinou’s Guiding to a Blessed End for history of Revelation’s canonical reception.
• Explore OrthodoxIntro.org for basics of Orthodox faith and canonical tradition.