Kingdoms of Israel: Reckoning

Summary

The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: Kingdoms of Israel: Reckoning

Date: May 9, 2025
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

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Episode Overview

This deep-dive episode continues the three-part exploration of the history of Israel after the Exodus, focusing on the conquest of Canaan, the problem of the “giant clans,” the conditionality of God’s promises to Israel, the failures of the Israelite tribes, and the rise and fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. The hosts critically address popular misunderstandings, especially surrounding dispensationalism and the relationship between the Old and New Testaments, while unpacking the spiritual reality of Israel through the lens of Orthodox Christian tradition.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mythbusting: The Torah, Human Capability, and Blasphemy

• [04:00–09:31] Fr. Stephen De Young’s Rant on a Common Misconception
  • Topic: The misconception that God gave the Torah to "show we couldn't keep it."
  • Quote: “[If] God gave them this commandments knowing that...they couldn't keep it, but then told them they could, then punished them... That’s blasphemy.” – Fr. Stephen [08:25]
  • Insight: The Torah, according to Deuteronomy 30, was presented as keepable; saying otherwise impugns God’s character and contradicts Scripture.

2. The Conquest of Canaan & The Nature of “Genocide” Arguments

• [10:27–24:27] The Reality of Joshua’s Conquest
  • The conquest was not wholesale genocide but targeted towards specific "giant clans" engaged in abominable rituals (e.g., human sacrifice, cannibalism).
  • Membership in Clans: Based on ritual participation, not ethnicity or “race.” Leaving the rituals, one could become an Israelite or Egyptian, etc.
  • Examples: Rahab and Caleb (an ex-Kenizite) integrating into Israel [21:40].
  • Quote: “What God is commanding is there must be no more Kenizites, no more Girgashites, no more Rephaim... That doesn't mean every single man, woman and child has to die.” – Fr. Stephen [22:24]
  • Modern Application: Discomfort with Bronze Age violence often stems from not grasping the true horrors of the ancient world, where practices like child sacrifice were real and abhorrent even to brutal empires like Rome.

3. Conditionality of the Land and God’s Promises

• [28:08–33:14] The Nature of the Promise
  • Conditional Promises: The land was given as a conditional sign of higher, eternal promises (theosis, eternal life).
  • Loss of Land: When the Israelites (or any nation) become as wicked as those who lost the land before, they too are dispossessed.
  • Quote: “There is a conditionality to the land. And so the fact that this belonged to another group, that other group lost it... That dynamic may remind you of some things in the New Testament...” – Fr. Stephen [30:37]

4. Distribution of the Land and Persistent Disobedience

• [33:53–39:08]
  • The Torah’s system never actually manifested in history (“...it didn’t even start” [33:50]), as tribes like Dan defied their God-allotted portion and seized other lands, sometimes violently and idolatrously.

5. The Case of Dan: Idolaters and Rejection of Their Allotment

• [39:08–47:41] Judges 18 Account
  • The tribe of Dan refused its given land, choosing instead to attack peaceful people in the north; they set up alternate idol-worship and priesthood from the very start.
  • Quote: “Dan is sort of the most egregious example of... those land grants were... pretty much ignored.” – Fr. Stephen [47:56]

6. The Fulfillment of God’s Promises Regarding the Land

• [48:32–50:58] The Joshua 21 Bombshell
  • Joshua 21:43–45 and 11:23 state explicitly that God gave all the land as promised: “Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.” [50:18]
  • Rebuttal to Dispensationalism: There is no “unfulfilled” land promise; God kept His word.

7. The Difference Between God’s Giving and Israel’s Receiving

• [54:14–62:21] Dispensational/Covenantal Misreadings
  • God giving a gift doesn’t mean all automatically receive it; faithfulness is required to possess the inheritance.
  • Quote: “There’s a distinction between God giving and people receiving.” – Fr. Stephen [55:17]

8. From Joshua to Judges: The Descent into Anarchy

• [63:04–65:58] Judges Era
  • After Joshua, Israel falls into chaos: “In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” (Judges)
  • Quote: “To have any kind of good order... requires a king.” – Fr. Stephen [65:35]

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Notable Listener Questions & Call-in Highlights

1. Dispensationalist Interpretation of Joshua

• [68:12–74:14]
  • Question: If the land promises are explicitly fulfilled, how do dispensationalists reconcile this?
  • Answer: Most can’t; they usually sidestep or ignore these passages, treating them as “difficult”; for many, the paradigm is self-reinforcing and not open to biblical correction.

2. “Genocide” and the Amalekites

• [78:41–86:25]
  • The command to utterly destroy the Amalekites is case-specific, due to their hostility and context; it does not license indiscriminate violence, and conversion/mercy was always possible (e.g., Caleb).

3. Third Temple and Sacrifices

• [87:13–91:14]
  • Dispensational hopes for a Third Temple are theologically problematic for Orthodoxy; Christ is the fulfillment, and many Church Fathers linked a literal Third Temple to the Antichrist, not a return to God’s plan.
  • Quote: “When they talk about there being a third temple, it’s built by the Antichrist.” – Fr. Stephen [91:08]

4. Talking to Dispensationalist Loved Ones

• [135:27–140:51]
  • Approach with patience, asking genuine questions, not confrontations; drastic targeted paradigm shifts often provoke pushback. “Just throw out some of these things from another point of view... not to win, but to seed some ideas.” – Fr. Stephen [139:38]

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Later Historical Developments

1. The Monarchies: Saul, David, and Solomon

• [95:32–121:18]
  • Kingship was not a rebellion against God; Deuteronomy 17 provided for it.
  • Saul was a “war chief,” not a bureaucratic king. David solidified the kingdom, completed the mission to destroy the giants, but Solomon’s apostasy resulted in divided kingdoms.

2. The Divided Kingdoms & Their Religions

• [123:26–131:10]
  • Jeroboam created a rival religion with golden calves at Bethel and Dan; the north adopted syncretism and Baal worship, while Judah fared only slightly better.

3. Destruction and Exile: Understanding the Historical Scope

• [141:32–151:04]
  • Israel (the northern kingdom) only existed ~200 years, Judah ~350 years.
  • The Assyrians erased Israel, deported its population, and created the Samaritans through intermarriage.
  • Judah survived longer, but was eventually carried off by Babylon.

4. Collective Responsibility and the “Curse of the Law”

• [153:49–157:05]
  • Paul’s references to the “curse of the law” mean the curse of exile and death upon the collective nation, not every individual’s personal damnation.

5. The 70-Year Exile and Sabbath Years

• [159:52–164:23]
  • Jeremiah prophesied 70 years as repayment for missed Sabbath years (every seventh year of rest for the land) – a sign that God himself would establish the order Israel failed to keep.

6. Looking Forward: The Messianic Hope

• [164:23–168:16]
  • Upon return from exile, the expectation crystallizes: God would restore all twelve tribes, forgive the curse, establish justice, and enthrone the Messiah, whose kingdom and fidelity would be universal and unending.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Blasphemous Readings of Torah:
  “When you say that, I know you haven’t thought it through. I know you’re not intentionally blaspheming. Right, but it is blasphemy.” – Fr. Stephen [08:31]

• On Conditional Promises:
  “There is a conditionality to the land... That dynamic may remind you of some things in the New Testament, like Christ’s parable of the vineyard.” – Fr. Stephen [30:37]

• On the Difference Between Giving & Receiving:
  “There’s a distinction between God giving and people receiving.” – Fr. Stephen [55:17]

• On the “Curse of the Law”:
  “Everyone who is under the Torah is under its curse... They’re either dead or in exile.” – Fr. Stephen [155:47]

• On Modern American Christianity:
  “If you’re ever reading and studying the scriptures and you don’t feel like you’re in a foreign country, you’re not really reading the Bible, you’re reading the traditions, the ways of thought, the ideas that have colonized your own mind.” – Fr. Stephen [182:36]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|---------------:| | The Torah “set up to fail” myth debunked | [04:00–09:31] | | Joshua’s conquest, giant clans, ritual identity | [10:27–24:27] | | Conditionality of land & the Abraham promise | [28:08–33:14] | | Failure of the land distribution (Dan, et al) | [39:08–47:41] | | Fulfillment of the land promises & typology | [48:32–54:14] | | Difference between God’s giving, Israel’s receiving | [54:14–62:21] | | Descent into anarchy and need for a king | [63:04–65:58] | | Dynamics of the Judges and early kingship | [95:32–121:18] | | Division, idolatry, and the north’s apostasy | [123:26–131:10]| | The short-lived reality of ancient Israel/Judah | [141:32–151:04]| | Exile, “curse of the Law,” and sabbath years | [153:49–164:23]| | Messianic expectation after exile | [164:23–168:16]|

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Tone and Style

• Signature banter, inside jokes (“overeducated marsh troll” / “perched atop podcasting tower”), and listener in-jokes (“giant killers, dragon slayers, Hamadryad hackers”).
• Direct, unsparing, but pastoral correction of popular errors.
• Readings and exegesis always anchored in the original scriptural text.
• Passionate advocacy for reading the Bible on its own terms, not through modern paradigms.

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Final Thoughts

The episode concludes by challenging listeners to question their inherited paradigms, experience the “strangeness” of the Bible, and to recognize that membership in God’s people is always about fidelity and transformation, not mere identity or biological descent. Promises are kept by God, but only received by the faithful – a message vital for understanding not only ancient Israel, but Christian identity today.

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Next Episode: The story continues into the Second Temple period, with exploration of how messianic hopes evolved as Israel reckoned with disaster, restoration, and the eventual coming of Christ.

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For further questions or to share thoughts, listeners are invited to email, join the discussion group, or leave a voicemail (see episode’s closing notes).

Transcript

[Narrator]

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand and not to fall. And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him. And they will praise and bless and celebrate with song the lord of spirits. First Enoch, chapter 48, verses 4 through 5. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits, angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Christ has risen. He truly is risen. Good evening giant killers, dragon slayers, Hamadryad hackers. You are listening to the Lord of Spirits podcast. My co host, Father Stephen DeYoung, the over educated marsh troll is with me straight from the swamp in Lafayette, Louisiana. And I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damick in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, perched precariously atop the arcane tower of podcasting, hovering dozens, dozens of stories I above a disused gateway to the underworld. And we are live. If you're listening to us live, you can call us at 855-237-2346. You can talk to us. We're gonna get your calls beginning in the second half and Mike Tin Pandeadpandagan will be taking your calls. I should say, by the way, just as a side comment that we have sold out all of the rooms for the Lord of Spirits conference, but there's still plenty of commuter tickets available so you can head to store.ancientfaith.com events to get yours. That's the first weekend of October at the Antiochian Village.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then you could just goblin mode and sleep in your car and come wandering into the village every day.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You may not sleep in. Well, if you're going to sleep in your car, you may not be in the parking lot of the village. They will find you. They will expel you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're not a cop. Come on, man. The local constabulary will be contacted. Just going full Karen on the parking lot at the village. That's right. Don't you have.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. So tonight we're going to continue our three part series on the history of Israel. This is part two. We're going to pick up after the Exodus. Before we start, though, Father, there's something that's been bothering me. Just a big lacuna in my head. I know that, Professor.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I don't believe that this has really been bothering you that much.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It has. This is a question that came up in my head today. It did. So Professor Bart Ehrman has been anointed as a friend of the show. But. But I have to ask whether. Whether there are others. I mean, are there qualifications for this? There.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There are no other friends of the show.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He is the one and only friend of the show.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Solamente Bart Airman.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because being part of the show gives you the right to call in at any time.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

For any amount of time and be put through.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, we've gotten close. We've been contacted by a relative of his, a fairly close relative.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He is the only friend of the show.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you notice we haven't taken shots at him, though. We've taken shots at some other people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's true. I mean, you've occasionally disagreed with him.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, but.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So he's a friend of the show. So before we start, I need to get something off my chest.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, oh, okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that's related to a comment that we've got. We got on some of this stuff with the last episode.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, it's not the one you think.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, man. I know. I kind of love. I love dispensationalist tears, though.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I do the. But this is a comment that we've gotten. I've gotten at least on other things in the past, talking about the Torah and stuff. And that is this comment where someone says something on the order of God gave the Torah to show that we couldn't keep it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, yes, this is totally a thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that we needed a savior. Okay, now look, I know somebody taught you this, Right. This is just what you're taught.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You haven't really thought about it. Same thing for them. The person who taught it to you. Probably it was taught to them and they never thought about it. And on and on and on. Right back to Martin Luther, who thought about it and should have thought better. Let's think about this for a second. What are you saying when you say that? Okay, you're saying God came up with a list of commandments that no human could keep. Okay, well, he certainly could do that.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That wouldn't be hard. He's God.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He could come up with a list of commandments that no human could keep if he wanted to.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But you're saying he did this, that that's what the Torah is.

[Interjector/Co-host]

And he.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Did that to show something to us. So first of all, what you're saying is that in Deuteronomy 30, verse 11, where God says, what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Ooh.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And continues to elaborate that they have a choice to keep the commandments or not.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're calling God a liar. You're saying God gave them this commandments knowing that. Not that they would. Not knowing that they wouldn't keep it, but knowing that they couldn't keep it, but then told them they could. Then told them they could, and then when they didn't, he punished them for it. And let's be clear on what that punishment was in the Old Testament. We are talking about thousands of human beings like you and me, okay, who were gutted, massacred, raped, taken into slavery, women and children, okay, suffer this horrible fate for not keeping commandments that God gave them, knowing they couldn't do it. And why did God do this and then lie about it and then massacre all these people? What was all of this mayhem for? All this mayhem was so that you, bourgeois 21st century American would know that it's not enough for you to just try to be a good person. You need to believe the four spiritual laws.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

See, I thought you were going to say, like, you know, it's all for his glory.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, not even that. The Calvinists are ahead of you on this one. Yeah, it's so that you would know. Oh, hey, I shouldn't bother trying to keep that Torah thing or keep the commandments.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Look at what happened to them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I should just believe the four spiritual laws. Thank you. Thousands of dead children.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm also trying to map that on to, like, parenting. Right? Like, what if I made rules for my kids that I knew that they could not keep and then I.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then lied to them and told them they could.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Lied them and told they could, and then punish them severely when they did not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes. So that the next generation. So that a future generation of daymics could look back at this object lesson you enacted and say, hey, you know what? We should just depend on the love and mercy of our parents and not try to be good.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is blasphemy, guys.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Blasphemy. Blasphemyou.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. What?

[Interjector/Co-host]

What?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When you say that, I know you haven't thought it through. I know you're not intentionally blaspheming. Right, but it is blasphemy. What that says about God is blasphemy. So stop saying that.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It contradicts scripture. It says that God is a liar.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the level of like modernist arrogance required to think that all of these Bronze Age people's lives and souls were just expendable so that you could learn a moral from the story.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is kind of obscene. So don't post that comment anymore. And if that is like a load bearing piece of your paradigm, which I know for some of you it is, that no one can keep the Torah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like you're going to have to rearrange your paradigm because we're not done with that idea tonight.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We're not done with that idea. Because the flip side of that is the people in the Bible who did keep the whole Torah and the Bible says they did.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that whole paradigm you're working from that would cause you to make that comment needs to just go out the window. Contradicts scripture. It's blasphemous. We don't need it.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We don't need it. We don't want it. We shouldn't have it. So there we go. Now that I've called half of our audience blasphemers.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

On with the show, you're on notice. Okay, so how about that Joshua guy?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They did not get a tip of the hat. They got a wag of the finger.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So you like that segue? So about that Joshua.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Hey, how about now for something completely.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Different.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Although not completely different. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Last time on Lord of Spirits. Now if we were professional, we'd have some clips to play, right? Like edit together to a montage to recap and get us caught up to where we are. But basically we're in Israel's history at the point of Israel entering into the land of Canaan, which means Joshua, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or if you're reading in the Greek, Jesus, just. And you know, if you're one of those types, you know, I don't know which is more annoying to me, the people who insist on calling Jesus Yeshua or the people who insist on calling Joshua in the Old Testament Jesus.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, my favorite.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're both up there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

My favorite though are the people that like insist on something like Yahushua or something like that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, that's even worse.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right. I know. I'm like a lot there, buddy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's heading into like black Hebrew, Israelite, how to pronounce Yahweh territory, right? That's. Yeah, so. But yeah, so we were talking about Joshua the son of Nun, right? Not Jesus the son of Navi. Yeah, get out of here with that. You're not Greek. It's cultural appropriation.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And if you are Greek, you should be saying yes, anyway.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. And obviously we're not.

[Interjector/Co-host]

We're not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We've got a through line. If you listen to the last episode, and if not, press pause on this live episode and go back and listen to last two weeks ago's episode. No, so the thing we need to take into account when we're talking about the conquest, Joshua's conquest, for a number of reasons that we're going to get into, is Joshua's conquest is not about the Israelites depopulating completely a piece of land.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not everybody is either killed or removed. In fact.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is how it will get framed to you by people who haven't actually read the Bible, mostly. But that is not what happens here in the Bronze Age. Maybe happening now, but it's not happening. It didn't happen then.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right, okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It didn't happen then. So that's not what the story is about.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The, the, the atheists who throw this out as an argument are fascinating to me.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because only, like really conservative scholars, which is a small minority of biblical scholars.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Really conservative, mostly Protestant conservative biblical scholars, hold that everything in the book of Joshua is literally true. I'm not saying I don't. I'm just saying that's a minority among scholars.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Most scholars, biblical scholars are more liberal than that. We'll say.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Most will say it's some kind of metaphor or.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or at the very least that there's like hyperbole and stuff.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, when it says these people were completely destroyed, that's just sort of like saying, you know, our football team completely destroyed the other team.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's not literal.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, Right. So, so yet when an atheist wants to make this argument, they argue as if like, everything in the book of Joshua is historical fact. Why they believe that as an atheist, I don't know.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, okay, but this is a common problem with atheist arguments is like they read the Bible like they're a fundamentalist and then like, like, yeah, that's not how people read the Bible. But anyway, so that's how it gets presented to you is just this genocide. God commands them to go and genocide everyone living in this area because he's giving them the land. Okay, now we already saw last time a little bit when we Were talking about the other Abrahamite groups, the Mites, the Moabites, the Ammonites at all Midianites. The Ammonites being the descendants of Ammon.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not like the little fossil critters that there were a list of peoples who they had displaced.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Specific people groups.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Had been driven out before them. Not everyone who lived there. And this is the case for Israel as well. In terms of the land of Canaan, it's not every person who lives in Canaan, every man with a child Gator is going to get massacred. That's not.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It was not just like sort of a. A genocide, you know, kill and drive out every person to take this land.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But there are particular identified groups that this is true not only like in the book of Joshua, but this is true from the time the promises are given to Abraham.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So like in Genesis 15.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

After God makes the covenant with Abraham with the split animals.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Talked about on the show before.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Pretty memorable moment. Like how gives the promise in a movie.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, the movie, the life of Abraham.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The camera just pans away yet. So Genesis 15, verses 18 through 21 says on that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying to your offspring, I give this land from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So already in there, it's not just, hey, this geographic piece of land, but it's. There are these groups, right. Giant clans, right. Who are living in a. Who you are going to drive out and displace and take the their land.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

As a judgment that's there. And remember, as we mentioned Already, Deuteronomy chapter 4, when Israel is drawing close, is growing close to these nations in the Transjordan, who are also Abrahamite nations, they're told you're not to don't take any land from Edom because God gave Edom that piece of land which is a piece of this land that was given to Abraham, that has been given to his descendant Edom. But also listed there are the names of the giant clans that the Edomites drove out.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you can't separate these two things in scripture. These are not two separate things. Taking possession of this land, driving out the giant clans. They're. They're one reality.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You can't separate the two. Not, not two separate Things.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now obviously we have a whole episode on giants.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Indeed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We're not going to rehearse that whole episode. Now press pause on this live broadcast. Go back and listen to that episode as well.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Welcome back from your three hour trip.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. But a couple of things that are important reminders for this. Number one, what made you a member of a clan, what made you a particular ite.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Of whatever kind.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Was ritual participation in the rituals of that people. So remember as we talked about last time, what made you an Israelite was if you were male, being circumcised, if you were female, being the wife or daughter of a circumcised male.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. You're not just born into it. There has to be a ritual process.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then eating the Passover.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Every year. That's what makes you an Israelite. Well, likewise, there were rituals among all these other people groups. The Egyptians had a ritual life that constituted them as Egyptians.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Et cetera, et cetera. That's how this was viewed. So the giant clans who are being singled out have a particular type of ritual life which includes human sacrifice, cannibalism.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sort of gross sexual immorality in a pagan worship context.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All of these, all of these things together. These aren't just, oh, some of them do these bad things.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Participating in these things as a group is what makes them a Gurgaonite or a ref.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's what makes them. That. That means two things. Number one, no one who's participated in those things is innocent.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But number two, anyone who stops participating in those ritual acts and goes and joins another people is no longer one of those people. So a Gurgaonite who stops participating in the human sacrifice and the sexual immorality, etc, going on among the Girgashites and goes and moves to Egypt and begins to participate in the ritual life of Egypt is now an Egyptian.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Remember, we know DNA exists. There's not a context, a concept of heredity yet. There's not a concept of ethnicity yet.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You are a member of a group, but you're a member of that group because you're participating with that group. And this is this reality, right. That someone can leave the Girgashites and no longer be a Girgashite. That someone can leave a giant clan and become something else.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is right there in the text of the Torah and Joshua you have.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, there's a big example. Yes, Caleb. Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Who's not probably, you know, almost certainly not a descendant of Abraham in the in the biological.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, he is not.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because. Because he's identified as a Kenizite, which is one of these other groups, one.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Of these giant clans.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, man. So he's an ex giant, not just a pagan group.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When he's first introduced, he's a Kenizite, one of those groups who was in that list from Genesis 15 we just read. He's one of those people. But by the end of his story in the book of Joshua, he's an elder of the tribe of Judah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He is no longer a Kenneth.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So what is being commanded here? What God is commanding is there must be no more Kenizites, no more Girgashites, no more Rephaim.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No more Amorites. That doesn't mean every single man, woman and child has to die. Yeah, that means they have to no longer practice those rituals.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, like. Like Rahab and Jericho. Right. She's no longer. I don't know what you would call those people. Jericho. Ites.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Rahab is named after one of the chaos dragons, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That serves Yam. They're like Lotan, AKA Leviathan and Rahav. That's where Rahab's name comes from.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So she becomes part of Israel and indeed an ancestor of our Lord. Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So again, this is not about the humans. It's not about genetics, it's not about any of that. Those concepts didn't exist. This is about, and if you read closely, God keeps talking about, you must put an end to the abominations of these groups.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So if all of the Girgashites are either dead or have stopped being Gurgaonites and there are no more Girgashites, The Girgashites have been wiped out. From the perspective of scripture, that doesn't mean a bunch of them are going to get killed. Because a bunch of them, you know, you can imagine people who frequently practice human sacrifice of their neighbors and enemies probably aren't going to just be like, yeah, you know, you're right. We should knock this stuff off. Let's all go become Israelites.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like some of them ain't going to go quietly.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right. So. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But as I've pointed out to people several times, if you knew for a fact, you know, people get very concerned.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, this is horrible.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

How can you kill those people?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If you knew for a fact that your neighbor was sacrificing people, sacrificing humans to a demon and participating in cannibalism, your next door neighbor, would you just.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like pray for him it's just their culture, man.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or would you, like, sit there and pray for him and be like, oh, show him the error of his ways, Lord? Or would you call the police?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm thinking you would call a bunch of men with guns and women, and those men and women with guns would go into your neighbor's house and they would stop your neighbor from killing any more people, from sacrificing any more people. And if the only way to do that, or if he resisted them and attacked them, they would shoot him. And I submit to you that if that's what happened, and that had to happen to stop him from killing people and eating them, you would not feel that bad about it. If you were a very kind soul, you would pray for his soul after his death. That would be a good thing to do. But you would agree that the murder and stuff needed to be stopped. That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about just random men, women and children minding their own business, and all of a sudden these Israelites come flying out of the woodwork and slaughter them all. Okay, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about putting an end to nightmarish horrors.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And also, if you're. If you're concerned about women and children in that part of the world in the Bronze Age. How about now? Okay, but we'll continue. I know you don't want to comment.

[Interjector/Co-host]

On that, but.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Seems the Bronze Age inhabitants of the land seem to get a lot more sympathy from a lot of contemporary people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think it's. I mean, probably a lot of it. Current inhabitants. Yeah, because I think people. I think a lot of it is that our culture, our world really has been so Christianized that it's hard to imagine that there are whole cultures that are built on doing that kind of horrible stuff. But, but yeah, all the evidence that exists points to that being real, you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Know, and even cultures like that existed not that long ago.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And even, like. Like the Romans, for instance, who are a brutal, predatory, apex predator of the Mediterranean. Right. They look at groups that they're aware of in their time, child sacrificing groups, and say, those are freaks.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, if the Romans think you're a freak, you're pretty bad.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And. And. And that's. That's the. These are the groups that are being driven out of Canaan, you know, and being. Being, you know, that this way of life has to end.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. So.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so this is the story that's being told. Now, if you want to say to me, hey, all that giant stuff is nonsense, that story of Joshua isn't true, I'm going to say, well, okay, fine, you can believe that. But then it's kind of hard to criticize the Bible about a story that you don't think is true. Seems weird because that's the core of what's going on.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But also.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why is this important?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because you and I have never met a Gurgushite or an Amalekite or any of one of the Anakim.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We haven't met any of these people groups.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're long gone. So why is it so important that this is preserved in the text over and over and over again? And as you read through the Torah in Joshua, it is over and over and over again that you get this list of people groups of the giant clans.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Why is it so important that that's there and that the names of these groups, long extinct, are preserved there? And it's making a point.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the end of the Torah and the blessings and curses there put a finer point on this point. But from the very, very beginning, the land, which, as we said last time, is a sign, Israel coming and taking possession of the land was a sign to them of the truth, of the larger promise of becoming like the stars of heaven.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Of eternal life, of theosis. That's larger promise. Taking the land is this sign.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the land always had this conditionality attached to it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's not an automatic or unconditional thing.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That land had been given by God to those groups.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now that God wasn't involved.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Everything that a creature has, they have because God gave it to them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But now, because of their wickedness and their abominations, they're being driven out.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that implies what? You know, Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28:30 are going to state plainly that if and when Israel becomes like them, they too will suffer the same fate.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Same with Edom, same with Moab, same with Ammon, same with Egypt, for that matter. Same with every nation in the history of the world. There is a conditionality to the land. And so the fact that this belonged to another group, that other group lost it.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is a reflection of that conditionality. That dynamic may remind you of some things in the New Testament, like Christ's parable of the vineyard.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Where at the end, the vineyard is taken away from the wicked men and given to Others who will bring forth fruit from it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this is a paradigm that's in scripture.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That there is a conditionality to the promises of God.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

These are not inalienable rights.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Or rights at all. They're gifts.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it's also important because this involves some of the most boring parts of the Old Testament and therefore the least read. This involves a big chunk of the Book of Numbers and the latter part of Joshua, after all the exciting battles are over, that this isn't just, okay, Israelites, here's land.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, it's. This bit is for y'. All. This bit is for y'. All. You know, it's. It's. And this is from God. This is straight from God. God says, this tribe gets this part. This tribe gets this part.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And even beyond tribes, it gets way more granular than that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's this clan within the tribe and this family within the clan.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And it's very notable, of course, that, like, the Levites do not get land because, as it says, that their inheritance is God himself.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so it's very particular. And then the whole system of the Torah is set up around the idea that that land belongs to that family. Remember, every 50th year, that land, all that land is supposed to revert back to the original family ownership.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Big. That's the jubilee year. Right. That's the big economic reset.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Every 50th year, it's supposed to all go back every seventh after seven sevens.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So seven sets of seven years, seven Sabbath years, then you have the jubilee year. We can come back to this later. Israel never celebrated the Sabbath year, let alone the Jubilee.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So again, this order in the Torah that was set out for what Israel was supposed to be never actually came to fruition. Never actually existed. But that's what's in the Torah. That's what God commanded.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That these very particular. And it's not just. When I say it never existed, I don't mean. Well, yeah, when it started out, God gave them the land and they all moved into it. But then very quickly, it went awry. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It didn't even start.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right. Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So very early on, as soon as they defeat Og the last of the Ref, and Sihon, the king of the Amorites, Right? And it's not. It's not Christmas till Aug's dead. But as soon as they defeat them, Reuben Gad the tribe say, hey, you know what? We kind of like this land in the Transjordan. Good luck, y'.

[Interjector/Co-host]

All.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So this is. This is the land that's east of the Jordan river, everybody.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like, not Israel proper.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes.

[Interjector/Co-host]

That.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That Og and Sihon had taken from the Moabites.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean, this is. This is the area that now is the country of Jordan.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so you remember when Trans and Sis were just talking about the. The Jordan River, A happy, simpler time, the garbage. So that's. But Reuben and Gather sort of a settlement that gets negotiated where they're kind of allowed to do that, but only after they come and help with help the other tribes take. Take their portions. But even then, there's some dicey stuff. Like they build an altar over there. And the Israelis go, hey, what's with the altar over there? They're like, no, it's. It's a replica. So that when our kids ask us what the altar looks like, we can point at it and say it looks like that. That's literally their excuse. Yeah, that's. So there's a lot of dodgy stuff going on there. But then you get the tribe of Dan, which goes beyond dodgy. So we talked a little bit about the origins of Dan last time, that these are. Are actually primarily one of the Sea peoples, if we want to talk about, for the perspective of modern ethnicity. But the Danites now what happens is God says to each of the tribes, he lays out these land grants. That's before they actually take the land. And the tribes are supposed to go and take the land that God is directing them to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's not like God said, look at this lovely pad site I have approved for you to just build on. There's people there and the tribe has to go and do battle.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And God says, I'm going to lead you into battle when there's battle.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But you go and take possession of it. And they're supposed to be faithful to that. And that's how they're actually going to receive their inheritance, receive their portion.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So God, as with the other tribes, directs Dan toward a particular piece of land. And then things happen.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. They don't like that land. Yeah. So what you get in Joshua 19, starting with verse 40, this has a lot of good fun Middle Eastern names. The seventh lot came out for the tribe of the people of Dan according to their clans and the territory of its inheritance included Zorah, Eshtaol, Irshemesh, Shaalabin, Aijalon, Ithla, Elon, Timnah, Ekron. Don't get triggered because it said Elon, by the way, gibbethon. Baalath, Jehud, Benabarek, Gathrimon, and Mejarkon and Rakon. With the territory over against Joppa, when the territory of the people of Dan was lost to them, the people of Dan went up and fought against Leshem. And after capturing it and striking it with the sword, they took possession of it and settled in it, calling Leshem Dan after the name of Dan, their ancestor. This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Dan, according to their clans, these cities with their villages. So not only did they not take the places with all those fun names, they went over to this other city.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Instead and took this city. And we're going to get more detail on that in a second, but obviously I don't have the ability to draw you a bad map over the radio here, but where's Joppa?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that's on the coast. Well, that's where my wife's ancestors are from now it's called Jaffa.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And where's the city of Dan?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm not sure about that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In the extreme north, nowhere near the coast.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, there you go.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it's not. I mean, like, they went to a different spot with all the BAAL people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Up there up north?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, it was arguably, yes, but they were arguably given a better spot.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But didn't go take it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Seacoast is good.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Rather than taking the land that God was going to give them, they did something else. And so now in Judges 18.

[Interjector/Co-host]

There.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is a much more detailed version of the same story.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, so strap in, everybody. This is more than like five verses. In fact, this is Judges 18. In those days, there was no king in Israel. That's always a clue right there when it starts that way. And in those days, the tribe of the people of Dan was seeking for itself an inheritance to dwell in. For until then, no, no inheritance among the tribes of Israel had fallen to them. So the people of Dan sent five able men from the whole number of their tribe from Zorah and from Eshtaol, to spy out the land and to explore it. And they said to them, go and explore the land. And they came to the hill country of Ephraim, to the house of Micah, and lodged there. When they were by the house of Micah, they recognized the voice of the young Levite, and they turned aside and said to him, who brought you here? What are you doing in this place? What is your business here? And he said to them, this is how Micah dealt with me. He has hired me, and I have become his priest. And they said, to him, inquire of God, please, that we may know whether the journey on which we are setting out will succeed. And the priest said to them, go in peace. The journey on which you go is under the eye of the Lord.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Pause a second.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So we're already a point. We're not that far into Israel's history. We've got wandering priests for hire.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is just some guy from the tribe of Ephraim just hired this Levite to be his priest.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You're a Levite? Come do the magic stuff for us.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you notice they said, inquire of God. It doesn't say. He went and inquired.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, he just said, oh, it's good.

[Interjector/Co-host]

You're good. Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He just gave him the whammy.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Then the five men departed and came to Laish and saw the people who were there. How they lived in security after the manner of the Sidonians, quiet and unsuspecting, lacking nothing that is in the earth, and possessing wealth. And how they were far from the Sidonians and had no dealings with anyone. And when they came to their brothers at Zora and Eshtao, their brothers said to them, what do you report? They said, arise and let us go up against them, for we have seen the land. And behold, it is very good. And will you do nothing? Do not be slow to go, to enter and possess the land. As soon as you go, you will come to an unsuspecting people. The land is spacious, for God has given it into your hands. A place where there is no lack of anything that is in the earth.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So they go and they find this city and its environs.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The farmland around it. And they say, these are peaceful people and they're some kind of Phoenicians. That's the connection to the Cydonians. But they're far away from Sidon, so the Sidonians won't be able to get there and help them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's like Vikings visiting Lindisfarne.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. They're literally just like, oh, I smell a prey animal.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Come, let us pick on someone not our own size. Okay. Yes. So 600 men of the tribe of Dan, armed with weapons of war, set out from Zorah and Eshtael and went up and encamped at Kiriath Jerem in Judah. On this account, that place is called Mahanadan. To this day, behold, it is west of Kiriath Jearim. And they passed on from there to the hill country of Ephraim and came to the house of Micah. Then the five men who had gone to scout out the country of Laish said to their brothers, do you know that in these houses there are an ephod, household gods, a carved image, and a metal image. Now, therefore, consider what you will do. And they turned aside there and came to the house, the young Levite at the home of Micah, and asked him about his welfare. So let's pause here. How they paying you there, buddy?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Pause again, just to make clear, Right? He's. He doesn't have an altar out there, and he's offering sacrifices to Yahweh and just doing it in the wrong place.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

New.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He has his own ephod, like the high priest.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Household gods, plural. An idol, a carved idol, and an idol made of metal.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so then I say, hey, this is all valuable stuff. By the way, this guy. Let us stay with him while we're on our way to the city. Let's rob this guy.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Oh, damn.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Yes. All right. Now, the 600 men of the Danites armed with their weapons of war stood by the entrance of the gate. And the five men who had gone to scout out the land went up and entered and took the carved image, the ephod, the household gods, and the metal image, while the priest stood by the entrance of the gate with 600 men armed with weapons of war. And when these went into Micah's house and took the carved image, the ephod, the household gods, and the metal image, the priest said to them, what are you doing? And they said to him, keep quiet. Put your hand on your mouth and come with us and be to us a father and a priest. Is it better for you to be priest to the house of one man or to be priest to a tribe and clan in Israel? The priest's heart was glad. He took the ephod and the household gods in the carved image and went along with the people. So they turned and departed, putting the little ones and the livestock and the goods in front of them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This was the first priest to move from a tiny church to a bigger church.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There you go.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

His heart was glad because he saw more money.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Indeed. When they had gone a distance from the home of Micah, the men who were in the houses near Micah's house were called out, and they overtook the people of Dan. And they shouted to the people of Dan, who turned around and said to Micah, what is the matter with you that you come with such a company? And he said, you take my gods that I made and the priest and go away. And what have I left? How then do you ask me, what is the matter with you? And the people of Dan said to him, do not let your voice be heard among us, lest angry fellows fall upon you and you lose your life with the lives of your household. Then the people of Dan went their way. And when Micah saw that they were too strong for him, he turned back and went to his home.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So they threatened to kill him.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right? We don't want to hear, you know, shut up.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Straight up. Rob this guy, gave him shelter.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Angry fellows will fall upon you. But the people of Dan took what Micah had made and the priest who belonged to him, and they came to Laish, to a people quiet and unsuspecting, and struck them with the edge of the sword and burned the city with fire. And there was no deliverer because it was far from Sidon and they had no dealings with anyone. It was in the valley that belongs to Beth Rohab. Then they rebuilt the city and lived in it. And they named the city Dan after the name of Dan, their ancestor who was born to Israel. But the name of the city was Laish at the first. And the people of Dan set up the carved image for themselves. And Jonathan, the son of Gershom, son of Moses, and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land. So they set up Micah's carved image that he made as long as the house of God was at Shiloh.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this Levite was not from just any clan among the Levites. He was a descendant of Moses.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right. Just a few generations.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So things went south very fast.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In terms of religion. Right. This is. This is bad. And make no mistake about what we were just told there in Judges. I know people have. A lot of people haven't read this chapter of Judges because you get to the end of the Samson story and you stop because it gets weird and violent and not as interesting and fun.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Although the Samson story is so kind of weird and violent as well.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, yeah, but, you know, people try to make him a hero, so. But this. This is the priesthood of D. Dan has its own priesthood from this point. So from just after the time of Joshua, right, until the northern kingdom of Israel and the tribe of Dan ceased to exist under the Assyrians. That whole time, they have their own priesthood based on idolatrous shrines in the city of Dan. They are not participating in the religion of, well, anything like the religion described in the Torah, and not even the malformed version of it that was going on in Judah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Just Dan idolatrous start to finish. Samson being from the tribe of Dan, remember?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that's, that's. So Dan is sort of the most egregious example of.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like those land grants were, were pretty much ignored.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A lot of the tribes failed to take what they were supposed to. And then some of them, like Dan, just went predator and went and stole some other land in cities that they weren't supposed to. Nonetheless. Sorry, dispensationalist friends. Yes, I know, I know you took the last episode a little hard.

[Interjector/Co-host]

But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is, this is not going to be good for you.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Some more if I was hammering at a weight bearing pillar before.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Brace yourself. All right, so we're going to read some Bible to you at the end of the book of Joshua.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep. Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What is the result, according to the book of Joshua, of what Joshua accomplished during Joshua's lifetime in the late Bronze age?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. Joshua 21, starting with the verse 43. Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and they settled there.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Pause a second. I would like you to read that verse one more time.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and they settled there.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So all the land that was promised as of Joshua, chapter 21, verse 43, had been given. The Hebrew kal ha'. Aretz. All the land.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I was gonna say. I know enough Arabic to know that that means all the land.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, the whole of the land.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That he had sworn. Right, Yeshua.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's no way around this. Okay, continue with verse 44.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, verse 44. And the Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them. For the Lord had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one word. Of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed. All came to pass.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Let's get that one one more time.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not one word. Of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed, all came to pass. I mean, that's one debar. I would say perspicacious.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Not one debar.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not one word. Of all the good promises the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed, all came to pass. It all happened.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All the promises related to the land were fulfilled as of Joshua 21:43. 45. It's right there. Yeah, it's right there in the original languages. It's right there in English. There is no way around it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So sorry, dispensationalists.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Your whole system contradicts the Bible. The premise that there is some land that was promised to Israel that God didn't give them contradicts the Bible.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

If you need to take a moment, you can pause and come back.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You could go read this for yourself. You could read it for yourself in Hebrew. You can read it for yourself in Greek. Yeah, I did again today. Just making sure it is not ambiguous. There is no ambiguity. There is no wiggle room here.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is it. Now, as we mentioned before, there's another bit that's inseparable from that.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Taking the land is inseparable from what? From dealing with the giant clans. Joshua 11 talks about that.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, so we're backing up now 10 chapters. So Joshua 11, starting with verse 21, and Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Deborah, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel, Joshua devoted them to destruction with their cities. There was none of the Anakim left in the land of people of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath and in Ashdod did some remain. So Joshua took the whole land according to all that the Lord had spoken to Moses, and Joshua gave it for an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal allotments. And the land had rest from war.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, number one, right, here's that inseparable piece, the Anakim, the giants, right, Were all driven out. There are a few stragglers. We'll come back to them a little later in this episode. Indeed, who fled to some of the Philistine cities. The Philistines had five main cities. Gaza got, and Ashdod were three of them. And so some. Some did flee there.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But within the land given to Israel, there were no giants left. And so, once again, Joshua 11:23, Joshua took Kal Ha'. Arts. The whole land, all the land, according to all that Yahweh had spoken to Moses. Okay, all of it. And he gave it for an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal allotments. So notice, remember, the land is a sign of the future, larger promise, but the sign of the land. That inheritance is received and distributed by a guy named Joshua or Jesus. If you're being pedantic about the Greek.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We could split the difference and use the Aramaic. Yasua.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, no.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that's an important, you know, not to hammer on the typology like a little bit too obviously.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, but now, so we've talked about these two things we talked about. On the one hand, God gave these allotments down to the clan and family. He gave them, he gave it all. He gave all that land.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the Israelites did not take possession of all that land, even their share.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

As we talked about last time, our dispensationalist friends leave out the fact that that was promised to Abraham's descendants. He's the father of many nations. So Moab got a piece of that, Edom got a piece of that, that, etc, but even just the peace from Canaan that was supposed to be given to the Israelites, they never took possession of the whole thing.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But we're told God gave them the whole thing. Promise fulfilled. This is what our dispensationalist friends are pointing to when they try to say that the promise hasn't been fulfilled. They say, well, Israel never took possession of that land, therefore God didn't fulfill his promise. This is a problem.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But yeah, because that's not what it says.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because what the text here explicitly says is no, God fulfilled all of the promises, but the people did not take possession of them.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Meaning there's a distinction between God giving and people receiving.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This is a good, sorry, Calvinists moment.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes. Because ultimately, as far as dispensationalism is from Calvinism, it was invented by a Presbyterian people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It comes out of Calvinist covenant theology. It's a warped version of it, but that's where it came from.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's the critter what spawned it.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so what's happened here is that people have taken Luther's reading of St. Paul, which is wrong. Which is the idea that there is no distinction between God giving something and a person receiving it, which is made even more ironclad by Calvinists than it was by Luther.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That the human is inactive, the human is passive. So if God gives you faith, you have faith. You don't have to voluntarily or otherwise receive it.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In the Calvinist system, God regenerates you, meaning you are dead and could do nothing. Now, I don't know where they're getting that definition of dead. Last I checked, that meant your soul and your body were separate. But their version of dead is that you're an inanimate object and God then acts upon it to regenerate you.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So they take that bad reading of St Paul, there is no distinction. And they try to read that back here into Joshua and say, well, if God gave them the land, that they would have had to receive it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Therefore he can't have given it to them. And so with the text that we read repeatedly, explicitly said that God gave it to them, their whole view kind of shipwrecks.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is what I've talked about before when we did the episodes on how to read the Bible, about reading the Bible forwards, not backwards.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Don't come to some understanding, you think works of something in the New Testament and then try to read it back into the Old Testament. Understand the Old Testament and then you will understand the terms and ideas and patterns that the New Testament writers are using to talk about Christ.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this pattern in Joshua of God giving and the people not receiving is crucial to understanding what St. Paul is actually saying in like Romans.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Because I mean, and I imagine some people might look at this and say, well, I'm using the New Testament to understand the Old Testament. Which.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, that requires you to understand the New Testament first.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. It's like, well, why, on what basis are you understanding the New Testament?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, 16th century.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Paradigms.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you're actually using John Calvin to understand the Bible, using the Calvinist tradition or the Puritan tradition or some other tradition to understand the Bible. That's what you're doing. You're not using the New Testament to understand the Old Testament, you're using that tradition to understand the whole bible.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So St. Paul's one of his central arguments in the Book of Romans is.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He has non Christian Jewish people arguing to him, as many Jewish people will still today. By the way, if Jesus is the Messiah, why haven't the Jews accepted him?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If God sent his Messiah, if God gave his Messiah and giving and receiving are the same thing, why haven't the Jews received their Messiah?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And central to St. Paul's argument is, no, there's a distinction between God giving and people receiving.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. You can give a gift that the person doesn't accept.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the people in Joshua, the tribes, the clans, the families who receive the inheritance that God allotted for them are the ones who what? Who were faithful, who faithfully did what God commanded them to do when he commanded them to go and take possession of that land, when they were faithful to that they received it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, yeah. This is one of the themes in the Torah. If you do this in obedience, then you will get this. If you do not do this, then you will not get it. And you might even have bad things happen to you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the ones like Dan and several of the other tribes who were not faithful, did not receive it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Did not receive the land that God had allotted to them. Did not receive the inheritance.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like in Dan's case, not only did they not take the land that they were supposed to take, they were obviously idolaters.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Yes. They're faithless in countless ways.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So St. Paul says, now we have a new Joshua.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A new Yeshua, a new Jesus.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who has received the inheritance from God and distributed it, but who receives it.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The fact that he did that doesn't just automatically mean that everyone receives it. Those who are faithful receive it. Those who are faithful receive their share of the inheritance. It's one of the central arguments of Romans and it's drawn from this paradigm in Joshua. But you got to set aside stuff like dispensationalism that's unbiblical, that contradicts what the Bible actually says, and go with what the Bible actually says, which is that God can give you a gift, God can allot you an inheritance, and if you are unfaithful, you will not receive it. But if you are faithful, you will receive it. It's really simple. And once you start thinking that way and go back and actually read the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, that way you won. You'll start to wonder why you had all of that silly systematic stuff in the first place. Because it's pretty straightforward. Leave there in the Bible, once you're just reading it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you're not tying yourself up in knots to try and make some system like that work that just doesn't fit. Or in this case directly contradicts what the text says. So. Yes. So land promises done fulfilled.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Was a sign of what was to come. But not everyone received the benefits of those problems. Only the faithful did.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And then, I mean, and then the next book after Joshua.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It doesn't go super well.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then. Yeah. And then we get into the period of the Judges, part of which. So the period, the Book of Judges is not in chronological orders. We just saw an example of.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Chapter 18 takes place before most of the other events in that book because it's giving a finer description of an event that happened in the Book of Joshua.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the Book of Judges is kind of all over the place that way, which is fitting because it's describing a period of just anarchy.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It says in those days there Was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes. This is not some sort of like a democracy. Yeah. Or anarcho capitalist paradise where everyone just gets to govern themselves.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Everyone is free.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Free to live a life that is nasty, brutish, and short.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. I mean, and like, if you read through Judges, like, you know, people, you should just try to sit down and just read the whole Book of Judges in one shot. Try that sometime rather than just a few verses. Whatever. Read the whole thing. You can watch. It just keeps getting worse and worse and worse.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. The mayhem continues to escalate.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, we stopped in 18. We didn't get into the concubine being chopped into pieces or the Israelite civil war or. Yeah. You didn't know that stuff was in there because Sunday school stopped after Samson. I know. Right, But.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And. And gang rape. I mean, she. She gets gang raped first, and then they. I mean, it's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Horrible, horrific stuff in the Book of Judges.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that's showing the way everything was just chaos and mayhem, which is what the. The exact opposite of what the Torah was aimed at. Right, right. And there's this descending quality of the Judges, you know, the nadir of which is Samson. People love it when I talk about Samson, but we did a whole episode where we talked about him that enraged a lot of people. All of you continue to cope and seethe. Everything we said in that episode is true. But the thrust for our purposes tonight, the thrust of where we get in the Book of Judges, is that to have any kind of good order, let alone the kind of holy order that is described by the Torah in a society requires a king.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Requires some kind of hierarchical leadership.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not just chaos.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep. Yep. Because it turns out that everyone doing what is right in his own eyes is not great. So on that bombshell, we will take our first break, and we'll be right back with this episode of the Lord of Spirits.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-23-7-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The centuries after the Protestant Reformation brought about a radical reinterpretation of The Epistles of St. Paul, disconnected from any historical reality. But Paul operated during his entire life as a faithful Pharisee within the Roman Jewish world. In St. Paul the Pharisee, Jewish apostle to all nations, Father Stephen DeYoung surveys Paul's life and writings, interpreting them within the holy tradition of the Orthodox Church. This survey is followed by de Young's interpretive translation of St. Paul's epistles, which deliberately avoids overly familiar terminology.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

By using words and ideas grounded in.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

1St century Judaism, DeYoung hopes to unsettle.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Commonly held notions and help the reader.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Reassess St. Paul in his historical context. Available now at store.ancient faith.com Again, that is store.ancient faith.com.

[Narrator]

We'Re back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 8-55-AF-RADIO.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Hey, welcome back, everybody. The call board is lighting up. We have some excited people, I hope. Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I wonder what I said.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, no, it's good. It's good.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I think it'll be good.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. And actually, one of our callers is even named Dan. That's very.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, sorry, man.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, no, we're not going to take you first, Dan. Sorry, you're not first. You're not first, but we do have someone, we do have Brennan from Jacksonville, Florida, who has a question about dispensationalists reading Joshua. So, Brennan, welcome to Lord Spirit's podcast.

[Caller]

Thanks. Father Andrew, can you hear me?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, we hear you. What is on your mind?

[Caller]

Well, first, I just want to say I met you when you came to our parish in Jacksonville and I came up to you and I said, father Andrew, I love your work, but you were way too soft on Dr. Ortland and you told me. I think you have me confused.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, probably with, you know, the, the marsh troll that I'm working with here tonight.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And for the record, it's because Ortland was still had, had the shine was not off of his nice guy act yet. And so part of why I think that interaction was a success is I got his veneer to crack a little.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I thought the Internet just existed in the eternal. Now everything is happening right now on the Internet. But that's not why you called, Brennan. Surely you wanted to talk about something other than Dr. Gavin Ortland, the Van Hagar reference.

[Caller]

Of course. I just wanted to apologize, especially the Father Stephen.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, that is an indignity. I was gonna say he doesn't have feelings.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He doesn't have feelings, so you don't have to apologize to him.

[Caller]

So my wife and I have been loving your podcast and we have a running joke at our catechism class that we have to mention your podcast at least Once. And I just wanted to ask about the ending of Joshua, because I read it. You said in your last podcast that the ending of Joshua says that all the land had been given to Israel. And I found it. And I just thought, what would. My dispensationalist friends who even served in Israel for decades, they definitely read that, but how would they respond to that? Are there some promises in the later prophets that allude to that? Like, what is their hope still in if it has already been given to them?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, I. Yeah, I mean, obviously we think it's a profound misreading of the scripture, but I mean, some of the way that it's interpreted, a lot of it, Frank. And we don't need to go back into this deeply because we talked about in the last episode, but a lot of it is bound up in modern geopolitics, like the sense of, well, you know, all the promises haven't been kept. And so therefore, you know, we need to let the modern. We need to support the idea of the modern nation state of Israel taking these particular pieces of land. You know, that is one of the ways that it often is. And so, I mean, dispensationalism has had a big impact, frankly, on the foreign policy of the United States. But I personally don't. I mean, maybe you know about this better than I do, Father, but how they, how they, how they, how exactly they read that stuff to make it all seem like coherent whole to them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So when I point that out to people, I mean, I just have to be honest. I have not gotten any kind of real answer. I've gotten a lot of cope.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, and I've pointed this out to people who are teaching this stuff. We're going from like, church to church doing seminars, right, with like, you know, PowerPoint presentations about dispensationalism in the end times and stuff. And I point this out to them in Joshua and like, they've never seen it before and I get a lot of stuff. Well, that, that must be referring to a different set of promises. And like, what set of promises? And then I point them to the. Not one word of all the promises, right? It's like. And I don't get anything. But I think like Father Andrew said, you know, it's an obvious problem and they brush it aside and they don't read it and they don't, you know, and I mean, hey, if you're a dispensationalist out there and you can. You have a really good explanation of that verse that you Think you can conv. Call in? Yes, but because I haven't heard one. I'm just being honest when I, when I point this out to people. But I think Father Andrew is pointing at something that's important because the, there's a sort of hermeneutic circle, right. Where they say, okay, well, dispensationalism before 1948 predicted that there would be a new nation of Israel, and now there is, therefore it must be true. And the reason I say it's a hermeneutic surgical is that that validation has then led to political support for Israel, which has led to, you know, political, US Political and monetary support for Israel has led to further success for the nation of Israel, which then is interpreted as further proof that dispensationalism is true, which leads to more support for Israel.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it just forms this circle, right. This sort of self validating circle. And so I think the focus is on that, not on these things that might disprove it. It's sort of the same thing I find with my Calvinist friends when I take them to certain passages outside of Romans 9 through 11, Ephesians 1, you know.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Romans 3, Romans 5.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Take them outside of some of those passages that they're used to reading and show them something that seems to very obviously contradict Calvinism. You get the, oh, well, this is a difficult passage to interpret.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so we need to use these other clear passages in these other places to interpret that difficult passage. And by interpret that difficult passage they mean ignore that because these other ones seem really clear to me.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, yeah, and so I think there's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A little bit of that going on with dispensationalism too. They have their proof texts and they say that those are quote unquote clear. But I don't know how you get clearer than what we just read in Joshua.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. And I think for most of these people, I believe that they come by these interpretations honestly. And by that I don't mean that they honestly sat down and studied it and you know, although maybe they did, but rather that this is, this is the tradition that they received. And so it's, it's self evident to them. I mean, honestly, like, like this goes all the way back to the Reformation really when a lot of the big debates were happening between Martin Luther, like in these first few years. Right. Right after, you know, 15, 17, these big debates were happening between Martin Luther and these Catholic apologists that he, he had conversations with and debated publicly. And this kind of stuff they would say look, you can't just say that that passage of Scripture means that. That's just your opinion, buddy. When we've got, you know, however many centuries and thousands of years and everyone in the Catholic Church saying this. And he essentially said in response, and I checked this because I was curious about it, because it, I couldn't believe it initially, but I checked this. And he essentially says in response, what you hear almost every single evangelical say these days about how it is that they know that their interpretation of Scripture is true, which is essentially, the Holy Spirit illumined me and I know it's true, which solves no hermeneutical problem. It doesn't. Because when you have people disagree and each person says, oh, this is what the Holy Spirit is telling me. Okay, well then which one is the Holy Spirit with? Or is he inspiring all of them to disagree with each other? I mean, that doesn't make any sense. But I think that most people, it's, they think that this just simply means that, that the Bible means this, the dispensational is obviously true, that Calvinism is obviously true, because when they read the Bible, that's what they see, because frankly, that's what they've always been trained to see. And in Luther's case, he wasn't always trained to see that. He came up with a lot of that stuff. Right. But everybody else from then on that's an inheritor of the Reformation has inherited that, or has inherited whatever particular interpretation they're part of the, of the Reformation churches has, has adopted. You know, so, yeah, I, I mean, most people, if you say, if you were to say to them the stuff that we just said about those passages in Joshua and elsewhere, who are in the dispensationalist world, most of them would simply say, well, you're wrong, or whatever. A few might say, huh? And then we could have a conversation potentially. But, I mean, but most people are impervious to having their, their paradigms punctured, completely overthrown. Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A short period of time. That's a rough to go through.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right. Think of how many. Like if you were a diehard dispensationalist, think of how much you would have to change about your opinions, especially right this moment, you know, to, to give that up. It's a lot. It's a lot. So I hope that helps. Brennan.

[Caller]

Definitely. Thank you, Fathers.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, thanks for calling. Okay, next we're going to take John, and it says from la, but I don't know, is that Los Angeles or is it Louisiana? Where Are you John?

[Caller]

Hey. Hey, Fathers. Los Angeles.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Los Angeles. The other la.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Are you literally in Los Angeles?

[Caller]

Yeah, literally mid city.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow.

[Caller]

Is this the first person from Los Angeles?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I don't know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I grew up in Southern California, so I just know that most of Los Angeles is not actually Los Angeles.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But you are actually in Los Angeles.

[Caller]

Right in the smack middle. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, my first thought when you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Said that was like, boy, I hope he's okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I hope he's not ducking, you know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In some alley somewhere calling us, you know.

[Caller]

Anyway, no, I'm on a sidewalk.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Actual Los Angeles is not that bad compared to some other.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah. Areas.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm stereotyping. I know, but I recently went to Northern California and I. Anyway, we won't go into that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that's a different state. Northern California is a different state.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It kind of is. It kind of is. And they tried that several times, actually. So, John, it's my understanding that you have a question about the Amalekites. Is that right?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah. So this goes back to an earlier part in the conversation where Father Stephen, you mentioned that it was never commanded for the Israelites to go in and just massively slaughter everyone, but rather it was more about the ending, the ritual practices of these giant clans. And so my question is, there's a verse in Samuel that mentions the Amalekite and is often used today in some unsavory contexts to justify, you know, genocide and other things. And it mentions Saul speaking to. Or no, Samuel, I believe, is speaking to King Saul and is commanding him to not spare the women and children of the Amalekite clan for what they did to the Israelites in Egypt. And so my question is, how does the Amalekites differ from the other giant clans? Or do they? And how should we confront the people who use this verse to justify some despicable things today?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, well, I mean, I'll answer the second bit and then I'll let Father Stephen take off from there. I mean, God commands certain people that are not me to go and do something with other people that are not in front of me and have been dead for many, many, many millennia. And I'm supposed to look at that and say, oh, God is clearly letting me do this other thing to these other people. In fact, I'm supposed to do that. Like, no, not every commandment that God gives applies to every single person in every single situation. It just doesn't. You know, God sometimes says, go do this to these for These people and not for everybody. So there is no general commandment in.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The Bible to take vengeance upon your enemies.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. In fact, it literally says the opposite.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Quite the opposite.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In the Old Testament.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Right, right. I mean, there's hardly anything new in the New Testament in that sense.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So, okay. Yeah, Father. I mean, the Amalekites and the. And the other giant.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The Amalekites are a giant clan. There are a couple of things that are interesting about them. One of them is that technically they're Abraham. They're an Abrahamite giant clan. They actually come out of the.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And their forebear, Amalek, was born through relations between his father and someone who is called the daughter of Lotan.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The daughter of Leviathan.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That gives birth to Amalek.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The original. And so the main thing that separates them from the other giant clans is that they were uniquely belligerent toward Israel. It wasn't that they were somewhere sinning and God brought some Abrahamites to judge them. It's that they tried to exterminate Israel when Israel was at Mount Sinai. They attacked Israel to slaughter it at Mount Sinai while God was present on Mount Sinai. And the text actually says, when God is commanding that the Amalekites be destroyed, that they dared to lay a hand upon the throne of God. And so they were sort of uniquely belligerent toward Israel among the giant tribes and made it their goal to exterminate Israel.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And in a lot of the. I was saying a lot of the hymns related to the Feast of the Cross, Amalek shows up over and over again. You know that the Israelites defeating Amalek is connected with the cross defeating all of the demonic power.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because that's. That's the episode where Joshua. So they had to hold that. And Aaron had to hold his arms up.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When they fought Amalek at Mount Sinai. So what's going on then with Saul? And we're going to touch on this briefly in a little bit, but only very briefly, so it's fine to talk about it here. What's happening with Saul is that Saul has. There aren't many Amalekites left at that point. And Saul has captured the king of the Amalekites, basically their head, their leader, their chieftain.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This guy named Agag.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's a great name.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And this whole scene, by the way, in House of David is one of the few things I did that actually made it onto the screen, as far as I know, in terms of consult, but.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, I still have to watch that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But the actor might be doing an actual ugaritic death curse in that scene that I consulted with him on how to pronounce. But anyway, so Saul had captured sort of their chieftain, Agag, and the commandment from God had been that Saul was acting as God's judgment against the Amalekites.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so this was not, like, about taking prisoners, taking slaves, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This was about, you are executing justice.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But what Saul had done.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What Saul had done was he had taken the king, their chieftain, as a captive and was parading him around to show how great Saul was in having won this military victory. He had taken the women and children as slaves. The women probably sexual slaves, probably concubines for himself. And he had taken all their livestock and stuff as sort of booty.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

None of which he was supposed to do. And so it's actually kind of a funny scene for Samuel because Samuel shows up and says to Saul sort of like, hey, I hear some animals nearby. Those wouldn't happen to be the Amalekite livestock, would they? And Saul's like, you know, I kept a few of those alive so I could offer a sacrifice to God. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I hear bleeding in Amalekite.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And it's sort of doing this whole song and dance. And that's why there's this judgment against Saul from that episode, because rather than serving as the minister of God's justice, which is what the Israelite king was supposed to do, he was in it to enrich himself, to display his own power and wealth for his own sexual gratification, etc.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So he was behaving in this kind of obscene way in general, but especially when he had been given this. This other command.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This other command that there should be no more Amalekites. And the language there about not sparing the women and children is the same language you see in Joshua. And yet we see Caleb.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. He converted.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So conversion would still be possible there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Well, John, I hope that helps out there in Los Angeles proper. It does.

[Caller]

Yeah. No, that. That really clarifies it. Yeah. Well, thank you, Father, so much. That really puts some questions to these and difficult questions to these. So thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Great, Great. All right. Thank you for calling. Okay. We're going to take one more call, and then we're going to move on. So we have Cole calling from the great state of Texas. Cole.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, no.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow. Yes, Cole. Yeah, Cole. He's all that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Cole.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Welcome to the two Floor Spirits podcast.

[Caller]

Evening, Fathers.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Good evening.

[Caller]

My question. I have evangelical friends that have told me about the potential of a third temple in Israel and how they're obviously, for eschatological reasons, they're pretty excited about it. And there being sacrifices in the temple and all of the things that would entail a third Temple. How should we respond to that? And is there not an issue with there being sacrifices potentially? This is probably a fairytale thing, but is there. Are there. Would there potentially be issues with there being sacrifices in a physical temple like that? And I know that in Orthodoxy, we obviously have sacrifices of incense and, you know, the Eucharist is a sacrifice. Would that be a problem for us, or what would be the answer to that?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Dispensationalists in Texas, huh? Who'd have thought, right? So, I mean, a bunch of things. One could say, number one, Christ is that temple. You know, he. He says that the temple of Ezekiel is Christ. But also it's been traditionally held by Christians that the animal sacrifices of, you know, the Temples of Solomon and the second Temple, that those were essentially a temporary thing to stand in until the sacrifice himself, that is the Lord Jesus Christ, our Messiah, until he came. And so it would be attempting to kind of turn back the clock, as it were, but it would also. I mean. Yeah, it just doesn't make sense on multiple levels from a Christian point of view. And. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there. There have not been animal sacrifices in Jerusalem since, you know, the year 70, roughly. Although, as Father Stephen has pointed out before, there continue to be some animal sacrifices at a temple near. Was it Alexandria, Father? Is that right?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In Leontopoulos.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. A Jewish temple near Alexandria in Egypt that was not the temple in Jerusalem. But, yeah, I mean, this is. This is kind of the. A big piece of the standard dispensationalist view of the end times, you know?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. The original Scofield reference Bible in the notes says that when Jesus returns during the millennium, they're going to sacrifice animals to him there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's so weird. Yeah, yeah. He is the sacrifice.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Notice I said the first edition.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, does it get edited out into later versions?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, because they could justify.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. And I also should add, for the record, most religious Jews don't think animal sacrifices should be reinstated. So, once again, dispensationalists don't even understand Judaism.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Right. There's this.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Bizarrely, there's this.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There's a simulacrum of Judaism that a lot of these people have that has nothing to do with actual Judaisms.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So we do have to talk about, though, in this context, the fact that you do find the Church fathers talking about a third Temple. It's always in the context of it being built by the Antichrist.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, man.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm sorry. It's true. St. John of Damascus.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Precise exposition of the other. Several other church fathers. Right. This is a thing.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

When they talk about there being a third Temple, it's built by the Antichrist. Now, personally, this is personal opinion. And I, unlike some folks, do not ascribe my personal opinions to the Holy Spirit in any way, shape or form. This is purely my opinion. I think that is colored by the historical experience of Julian the Apostate. Because Julian the Apostate was the last one to try to rebuild the Jewish temple.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Not because he was some kind of pious.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No. To discredit Christianity.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right. Exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so Julian the Apostate for several generations after his life became sort of the paradigm for what the Antichrist was going to be. In the same way that, like, earlier generations of Christians thought of Nero.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Some of those later generations, which. In which a lot of the Church fathers wrote, he was kind of the paradigm. So having that be one of the things the Antichrist was going to do to me, I think is probably based on that historical experience. I could be wrong about that. The Antichrist might rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But if that turns out to be true, that's also kind of bad news for dispensationalists. Like, they're literally setting people up to worship the Antichrist in that case, which, by their own reckoning, would be bad.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Now, Cole, we leave it to you. It's exactly how to communicate this to your friends. But we're giving it to you out. We're giving it to you straight.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Me, personally, why are you invoking the worship of the Antichrist? That would be what I would say. But other people have other approaches. That's right, because they're not Dutch.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Is that helpful, Cole?

[Caller]

Yes, that's very helpful. Thank you very much.

[Interjector/Co-host]

All right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you for calling.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Signs of the evil one are spreading. Anyway, go ahead.

[Caller]

Thank you, Father.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right. Thanks. Okay, so, all right. We just finished up with the anarchy of the Book of Judges. And that there is need for a king.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not the cool kind. Not Skate or Die, dude. Like the uncool kind of anarchy, where you can buy anarchy maimed and murdered and mayhem is happening.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You can buy anarchy stickers down at the mall. Remember malls?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I remember malls. That's right. You don't know how much I've lost by losing malls. Because I grew up in Southern California, and so I could go anywhere in the U.S. nay, the world, and go to a mall and be in a little embassy of Southern California.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's true.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like to wherever that was and feel at home.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm reminded, though, there was a hot.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Dog on a stick.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Orange Julius.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, I remember. I mean, I'm sure you remember in the 80s, you remember how there was a whole genre of pop singers that their whole thing was that they performed at malls.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, yeah. Tiffany.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. Tiffany was the big one. And, you know, like, one of the things that brought that all home for me. I don't know why. You know, maybe Tiffany came on the radio and I decided to look her up or whatever and I found out her last name. Do you know this, father?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I am not aware.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Her surname is Darweesh. She's Lebanese. Yes, yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who knew?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

She's. I think she's from a Maronite family or something like that. So next time you hear. I think we're alone now on the radio, you know, you should think of Lebanese Americans. So there you go, everybody.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I prefer Weird Al's. I think I'm a clone now.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Because.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There'S all classic, as it were.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, yes. I think he's of Bosnian background, actually. Yankovic.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Who?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Weird Al.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Weird Al. Yeah. Bosnian or Croatian maybe. I think maybe Croatian. Maybe that's it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yankovic could go a couple of ways.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All in that region of the world.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. And they'll all be very angry if you get it wrong. Okay, so we're following the arc of the History of Israel things. They're not looking good there at the end of Judges, so.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They get worse before they get better. Spoilers.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So what's next?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, but so a big theme with the Book of Judges and the whole structure of it is we need a king. Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And when you get toward the end, it even makes pretty clear we need a Judah king, not a Benjamite king.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that ain't the one they get first.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so we talked about this in a very early episode because I remember I pointed out that if there's. If there's one thing puritans don't like, it's formalism and worship. But if there's two things puritans don't like, it's formalism and worship and kings.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. So we did a whole episode on. On the crowning of, you know, the. The crowning and anointing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, we did a couple Messiah episodes. And so we've. We've. We've talked about this a little bit. But all that is to say, a lot of us got this Sunday school reading of first Samuel that is essentially kings. Bad Israel was rebelling by wanting a king at all of any kind.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Problem with that. Deuteronomy 17 in the Torah said they were going to have a king.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. So Deuteronomy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And as commandments about what the king should do, it'd be like.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So Deuteronomy 17, starting with verse 14, when you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it, and then say, I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me, you may indeed set a king over you, whom the Lord your God will choose one from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you who is not your brother. Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, you shall never return that way again, and he shall not acquire many wives for himself. Just have to point out, right. This is the commandment against polygamy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What could go wrong?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. He shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law approved by the Levitical priests. So obviously he's supposed to be a biblical scholar. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And it shall be write a copy of the Torah and have the priests approve the copy. So he can't do little edits to get away with it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's a pretty serious amount of scribal work. Yeah. And it shall be with him. And he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God by keeping all the words of the slaw and these statutes and doing them, that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children in Israel. I noticed that it says, so that he may continue.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, Conditionality.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There it is again.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so obviously God had given these commandments for what the king should do and how he should operate, which meant having that kind of king would not have been rebellion against God. This trope you've been presented, that God was the king and didn't want them to have a human king is nonsense. It's puritan nonsense. Another thing we have to blame old Milton for.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you know, Chuck, that The problem in 1st Samuel chapter 8 is that they wanted a king like the other nations, specifically to lead them into battle.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. This is that language, you know, to go in and come in and go out. To come in and go out. Like, it's not talking about him, you know, going out for a stroll or you know, going down to the.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes, but I leave my house and when I go home, I want the king.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, no, this is. Yeah, this is about military sorties.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And the reason they want that.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The reason they want that is again, you have to read the text in context. Go figure. They had tried to go to war against God's command and they said, well, we'll take the Ark of the Covenant with us, we'll carry that out there into battle and then we'll win.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like use it as a totem.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

To make God fight for them.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Even though God had not commanded them to go to war.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so God had said, nope. And they lost. And they lost the Ark of the Covenant, remember? And it went to the Philistines and the Philistines had to return it and all that stuff happened, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so the people are dissatisfied. The people, rather than learning what God was trying to teach them.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

About going into battle, we're just like, nah, we can't count on God to lead us into battle. We need a king.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's the problem.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Be practical, you know.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's the problem. That's why God says to Samuel, they're not rejecting you because Samuel was the last judge. He's called that in the text. But God says to Samuel, they're not rejecting you as the judge, they're rejecting me. They're rejecting God.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

As the one who leads them into battle. And so they pick Saul. And that's why Saul talks about how he's a head taller than everybody else and so good looking and blah blah, blah, blah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But now we also have to explode.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Sorry, just singing a little queen.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh. Anyway, so we're. I don't know what, what fat bottom girls has to do with this, but you need to lock in. Okay, Stay on top. So who wants to forever? So we have to explain. I know I'm ruining Sunday school left and right this evening, but we have to explode another kind of Sunday school myth here in that people tend to think of quote unquote, King Saul. Like, he's like a medieval king. Like he had a throne.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And a throne room in a castle and stuff.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And a government.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, government. And advisors and viziers. Okay. Saul was like literally a war chief.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's what he was picked to do, and that's what he did.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. This is more like the. What is the term in Latin? The comitatus. You know him and his bros. You know his. His band.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

His mighty men. He had an army. Right. And you have to remember this is early Iron Age. This is after the Bronze Age collapse.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So our picture of the ancient near east in the time of David is way less medieval Europe and way more post apocalyptic wasteland.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, they're literally living in the ruins of these previous cities and empires that had collapsed, repurposing stones from monuments and cities and stuff. Later on in the text, Saul has to finally fix a big gap in the wall of Jerusalem where the wall was broken down. That's Solomon.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

David's son. So things are kind of in rubble, in ruins. Okay. And Saul is now propped up as sort of this war chieftain. He didn't have an infrastructure. He didn't really have an effective way to say tax. Dan.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Hmm. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You could ask Dan for troops. So Saul. Saul is more like Negan and walking Dead. Right. That he is like Richard iii.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So especially physically. But anyway, so we have to kind of readjust our paradigm of what's going on with Saul later on when David becomes king. David is going to begin to build that kind of infrastructure stuff.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Saul doesn't even really have a capital city.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

David's going to take Jerusalem and make it his capital.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

David's the one who really starts to put this stuff into play. And then Solomon is the one who does the huge building projects, like fixing the walls of Jerusalem, but also in other parts of. Of Israel.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But then that doesn't last, but we'll get there. So Saul is briefly this kind of war chief figure.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And when you recast him as that, the story with him and David makes a lot more sense.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Where. Where God chooses this other person.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who's going to take his position. Saul never gets to establish any kind of dynasty.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's not like Saul lives in this big palace and, you know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. So, but the transition, as we mentioned with the caller, has to do with Saul's failure to deal with the Amalekites with The Giant clan.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So if you're going to be the war chief, right, this is. This is the one thing you should be good for.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like, yeah, this kind of stuff. And he doesn't do it. Whereas David, right from the get go, when David is introduced in the text, sort of his. His bona fides, Right. His claim to be, oh, this is the king that God is calling is made up of what? He kills the remaining giants.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Starting with Goliath.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. He does the thing that Saul fails to do.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's why that story is so important. Not just, wow, that kid's cool. He took down a much bigger dude.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. No, this is the completion of the mission into Canaan.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So there's those last few stragglers that snuck off into Philistia, starting with Goliath. David is going to take them out. And we read about that later on. David and his mighty men. Remember, David lived most of his life as a mercenary, the leader of a band of mercenaries working for the Philistines and occasionally for the Israelites before he was actually king. King and started to build the infrastructure. That's why God identifies him as a man with a lot of blood on his head. He's a man of war, not a man of peace.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so, yeah, so we read about him taking out the last stragglers, the last of the Anakim who had escaped Joshua.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So, okay, this is in 2nd Samuel, starting with chapter 21, starting with verse 18. After this, there was again war with the Philistines at. I don't know how to pronounce this. Gob, Gobble or Job. You know, if it's Arrested Development, then Sibichai the Hushathite, struck down Saf, who was one of the descendants of the giants. And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob. Gob. And Elhanan, the son of Jaare Oragim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. And there was again war at Gath. And there was a man of great stature who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. Foot 24 in number. And he was also descended from the giants. And when he taunted Israel, Jonathan, the son of Shimei, David's brother, struck him down. These forward descendants from the giants in Gath. And they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants. So, okay, so wait, so who is this Elhanan? I. I seem to recall that this some People point at this and say, this is a contradiction in the Bible. In one place it says, although David kills Goliath. Who killed Goliath?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

David killed Goliath. This guy killed Goliath.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, here's the thing, folks. We've done archeology among the Philistines. Goliath is a pretty common Philistine name.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. So there could be.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We found records of a bunch of them who weren't giants.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So this is probably just two dudes with the same name.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wait, there's two dudes with the same name in the Bible?

[Interjector/Co-host]

What?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I know, yeah. The next you're going to tell me there's more than one woman named Mary.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Multiple Lamech's just in Genesis.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. So yes, I know there are a bunch of very excited atheists out there who point to this verse and say, see, the whole Bible is a lie. But yeah, no, it's a pretty common Philistine name. We have records of it. And it's not the biblical Goliath who we have records of. Goliath is a, is a pretty common Philistine name, it turns out. Now the, the, the six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, is that all about. Yes, this is actually an important detail because this is evidence of what we would today call inbreeding.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Notice it says they're descendants of the giants. So the idea here is that it's not just these are the actual people who escaped Joshua.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

A couple hundred years has passed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

At least a couple hundred years has passed. Don't want to lock in a date of the exodus or anything, but at least a couple hundred years has passed. These are descendants. And so what this is showing is that, Rebber, the goal was to wipe out the tribes, to wipe out the clans and their practices. So it's not just that some individual humans from those clans survived and went and assimilated and became Philistines, it's that within Philistine territory, these giant clan families were having descendants and were continuing these practices.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So you're saying that Count Rugen and the prince's bride, who has figures on it. Very possible. Very possible.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Very possible.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. I'm willing to accept that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay. Yeah. And so part of the idea here of David killing these last giants is that David sort of brings the establishment of the kingdom in the land to completion. And so another place where we're going to see that laid out is the covenant that God makes with David.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now we have to understand something about The Old Testament covenants here, and this is something that St. Paul makes clear in Galatians and Ephesians and Romans. But this is also just there. St. Paul is pointing to things in the actual text of the Hebrew Bible. He's not just making up distinctions.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you have the promises to Abraham, as we said, right. As we've been talking about the last couple shows, the Torah, then the covenant that is the Torah does not sort of abrogate or realign or rewrite those promises.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The Torah is an additional overlay to those promises. And what the Torah is concerned with is about them living in, continuing to live in.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Keeping the land that God had brought them into so that their life might be long in the land that the Lord their God had given them.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that's when you look at the blessings and the curses, Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28:30, you see all the blessings and curses. It's not about eternal life. It's not about becoming like the stars of heaven. It's not about theosis. It's about fertile land, good crops, staying in the land, human flourishing. Yes. And the bad stuff, if you don't keep the Torah, is you're going to end up going into. You don't keep Torah, you're going to end up going into exile or death, Basically, to put a finer point on.

[Interjector/Co-host]

It.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Those are the things that are going to happen. But that's an overlay, right? The structure of the promises to Abraham. I am going to give you the land. And the fact that I give you a land will serve as a sign that this other promise concerning theosis and eternal life and the heavenly kingdom is true. That's its own thing, right? And then the Torah comes to deal with the life of the people of Israel, in particular in the land. Okay, so now this covenant with David is again an overlay.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

About David and his seed and his dynasty as king is an overlay of this. And it's an overlay that bridges between the covenant of the Torah and the promises to Abraham in a certain way. And I think we'll see that when we read basically that that covenant gets made in 2nd Samuel, okay?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So 2 Samuel, chapter 7, starting with verse 8. Now therefore, thus you shall say to my servant David, thus says the Lord of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, that you should be prince over my people Israel, and I have been with you wherever you went and have cut off all your enemies from before you. And I will make for you a great name like the name of the great ones of the earth. And I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them so that they may dwell in their own place and be disturbed no more. And violent men shall afflict them no more, as formerly from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel, and I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house when your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body. And I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men. But my steadfast love will not depart from him as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you, and your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever. In accordance with these words and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, so the wording in the first half of that probably seemed a little familiar to you from some of the stuff we were reading in Joshua about rest from enemies.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And the land being at peace. This is talking about how David has now sort of completed that process, Right. Of establishing the kingdom in the land.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But then it transitions to this other piece, and as we just heard it read in two Samuel, this son who's going to take over for David is speaking pretty literally about Solomon for a couple of reasons. But remember, Saul, as is contrasted here, didn't get to have a dynasty. None of his sons got the throne, so he never had a dynasty. But Solomon is going to.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But notice, God says, I'll be to him a father. He shall be to be his son. When he commits iniquity, I'll discipline him with the rod of men, the stripes of the son of man. But my steadfast love will not depart from him as he took it from Saul.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So Solomon, David's son, is going to sin and God is going to chastise him for it, as we'll see. We're going to talk about that more in a little bit, but not abandon him like David's dynasty will continue. And notice he says there, your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me, and your throne shall be established forever. But now, when we read the parallel passage in 1st Chronicles 17. Specifically in verses 13 and 14, the wording is a little bit different.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, yes. So it says, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. Okay. So far the same, I will not take my steadfast love from him as I took it from him who was before you. Basically the same. But now verse 14, but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom forever. And his throne shall be established forever.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the thing about him sinning and being chastised is removed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In talking about this son, this descendant, this son of David.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And rather than saying, your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me, it is, I will confirm him in my house and my kingdom, God's house and God's kingdom forever. And his throne shall be established forever rather than your throne shall be established forever. So First Chronicles makes it clear that while. That while David's immediate son, Solomon is in view, like in second Samuel again, once again, that serves as a sign of another son of David who is going to come later.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And who is going to have an eternal throne in God's house and in God's kingdom.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so the promises to Abraham that are still pending, so David has sort of completed those promises to Abraham that served as a sign, but now those still pending promises are here being attached to this son of David who's going to come in the future. So the Messiah, the anointed one, the king.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The Messiah, the son of David.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is going to be the one through.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Whom.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not just Israel, but at least the Abrahamites receive the promises to Abraham. And by the fact that this is directed not just to Israel, but to at least the other Abrahamites, means that there is a sort of extra Israelicum here.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That the promises that are going to come through the Messiah, the Israelite Messiah, the Jewish Messiah, that's who the promises are going to come through. But those promises and that inheritance are going to expand beyond just Israel proper or Judah proper, that the sons of David are going to rule over. Now. Then David dies, Solomon becomes king, everything goes south.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

In more ways than one.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And so Solomon, as predicted by Nathan, there sins.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, a lot. A lot. I mean, like Commandment 1, do not worship idols.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So he does. He does that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. He takes all the. He multiplies wives to himself, which Deuteronomy said he shouldn't do. He build their pagan wives, he builds temples for them. We find out later that he even built an idol to the Sun God in the temple courts. In Jerusalem after he built the temple.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And he builds a shrine to Molech. Molech the child.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sacrifices, sacrifice people.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So he does all of this very. These very bad things, to say the least. And so there are consequences. There are consequences for him for this. Now that said will see icons of Solomon. Solomon is listed as the c. As a saint.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, he is a saint.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The reason for this is not.

[Interjector/Co-host]

That.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, oh, we need to somehow reread the Bible so he didn't commit all those sins.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, I mean, it says very explicitly in there, Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord. Like, you don't need to have your own opinion. It's just there.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And so. But the book of Ecclesiastes in particular is taken to represent King Solomon's later repentance.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That at the end of his life he saw that all of those things were, to quote Ecclesiastes, vanity. They were all empty.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All those things he had spent his life chasing after.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He's the wisest man in the world and he did some of the stupidest stuff.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, you can be.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But he realized that and repented.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's why he's. He's reckoned as a. As a saint. But so there's going to be judgment against Solomon and basically that judgment is going to be. He's going to lose almost all of Israel.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Not in his. Not in his generation, but in his.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Son, the next generation, Rehoboam, his son is going to end up being the king of not much.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

God says to Solomon, like, look, it's going to be divided, but not in your day, basically, because your dad was great. For the sake of my servant David.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But this is the discipline that Nathan was talking about when he made that prophecy to David in the trail. And so the rest of the kingdom is going to go to a fellow named Jeroboam son of Nebat, who was a very naughty man.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's right. I mean, this is a guy like, don't be someone that they name a sin after.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. For the rest of the history of Israel, all the bad kings are going to be he continued in the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's all they have to say. And you know, you're cooked.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so here's what it says in First Kings, chapter 11, starting with verse 31. And he said to Jeroboam, Take for yourself 10 pieces. For thus says the Lord, the God of Israel. Behold, I'm about to tear the kingdom from the hand of Solomon and will give you. Give you ten tribes, but he shall have one tribe. For the sake of my servant David, for the sake of Jerusalem, the city that I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemash, the God of Moab, and Milcom, the God of the Ammonites. And they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did. Nevertheless, I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, but I will make him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David, my servant, whom I chose, who kept my commandments and my statutes. But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and I will give it, and I will give to it to you 10 tribes. Yet to his son I will give one tribe that David my servant, may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I've chosen to put my name. And I will take you, and you shall reign over all that your soul desires, and you shall be king over Israel. And if you will listen to all that I command you and will walk in my ways and do what is right in my eyes by keeping my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did, I will be with you and will build you a sure house as I built for David. And I will give Israel to you. And I will afflict the offspring of David because of this. But not forever. Not forever.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So a couple of things to notice. Notice that when God is. Is talking about the sin of Solomon.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And of Jerusalem, he primarily compares them to other Abrahamites.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Moab Ammon.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're worshiping Kibosh, the God of Moab, and Milcom, the God of the Ammonites.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Those are the Abrahamites through Lot, who had turned to paganism. So he's making a direct comparison between Israel. Unfortunately, the parallel that we saw in Deuteronomy 4 of God bringing the land and driving about the giant clans continued in that they, in a parallel way, then turned to syncretism and worshiping other gods.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And Jeroboam, son of Nebot, Nabat Ni, he. He decides to repeat the whole golden calf thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, as if. We'll get there in a second. But we got to notice one other thing here.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Notice if you will listen to all that I command you and will walk in my ways and do what is Right. In my eyes. By keeping my statutes and my commandments, as David my serv servant did. Pause.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. I mean it says it twice in this passage. It says that David did it all.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, David kept the Torah perfectly. Guess what? That's what God says here.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But wait, I thought he committed adultery and got a woman pregnant and then murdered the husband to cover it up. Yeah, he did. And then he repented like the Torah told him to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. The Torah is not just a bunch of rules.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Also what to do when you sin.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So David kept the Torah perfectly. Here's one of those people. Because it's not too hard for you. And he kept it by repenting.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's going to be the difference between David and Jeroboam.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not that David never sinned and Jeroboam did. It's that David repented and Jeroboam didn't.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And then Father Andrew was talking about one of the main things he had to repent of.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. He sets up these golden calves which like, hello, I mean this happens during the Exodus, does not turn out well.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so the issue is he doesn't want his people in his kingdom having to go to Jerusalem in this other guy's kingdom for all their religious deeds.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean, look, there's tourism shekels at stake here.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. So Bethel is at the southern end of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and Dan is at the very far northern end.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. So you have something relatively convenient to you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So they have two campuses.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The multi site.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's a multi site, idolatrous cult.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And he sets up these golden calves there. Now Dan we already know, had its own priesthood going.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So that's easy enough.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Idolatry.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so he sets this up at Bethel and that is the state religion. That is the official state religion of the Northern Kingdom for its entire history.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The next 180 years or so till it ceases to exist. Now, a couple dynasties later, because dynasties turn over fast in the Northern Kingdom due to assassination, they do. A couple dynasties later, Omri is going to establish the Omride dynasty. He's going to be the most famous Israelite king in terms of what we found in archaeology. Other nations refer to Israel during the rest of its brief existence as the House of Omri. Primarily Omri is the one who buys the hill where Samaria is built, which becomes the capital of the Northern Kingdom in Ephraimite territory. But his son Ahab is probably more famous biblically.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. And Ahab's wife, Jezebel, to whom Omri married him to make an alliance with the king of Sidon. And so Jezebel then brings BAAL worship in to overlay with the official state religion of the Golden Calves. So things just kind of get better and better.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And in case. And in case you're a little new to this whole story, you should know we mentioned the divided kingdom. The northern part is simply called Israel at this point with the 10 tribes. And then the southern part, which is Judah, and then Benjamin. Right? Yeah. Is called Judah. That's the Kingdom of Judah. And that's the one that's being ruled over by the Davidic dynasty.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so that's what's going on religiously in the Northern Kingdom, bearing zero resemblance to the Torah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And in Judah, things are a little better, maybe, in that there. It's mostly syncretism.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So they're still worshiping Yahweh, but then also some other stuff.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Also some others. But what is going on in the temple is primarily roughly conforming to what they were supposed to do with the Torah. It's just there's all this other stuff.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I mean, by the time you get to the Josiah, Josiah smashes a bunch of idolatrous altars and shrines and stuff. But then. And then also, like, one of the details is it says that there are all these vessels that are. That are inside the temple that are dedicated to baal. Yeah. And he has to bring. He does bring them all out, burn it all outside the city, and. And it's all over. Forever. No, after Josiah dies, very briefly, all that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But this is why when you. When you see righteous. The righteous kings of Israel, like in a lot of harrowing of Hades icons and stuff, it's usually kings David and Josiah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

For that reason, because Josiah kind of tries to fix the syncretism, but it's kind of too little, too late at that point. Judah, by the time Josiah reigns. So, yes, we leave off our second half.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

As I say, we're ending all of these on bummer notes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's not going to get better tonight, guys.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know. This is just how the story goes. All right, well, you've wasted another perfectly good hour of your life listening Lord of Spirits podcast. But nonetheless, we're going to take another break, and we'll be right back.

[Narrator]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment to take your calls on the next part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-ADIO.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Perhaps you are a seeker exploring the abundance of the Orthodox faith. Or maybe you're a young mother wanting to share the fullness of Orthodoxy with your children and family. Or perhaps you are single trying to find shelter from unclean images or words, or an empty nester wanting to fill your time with edifying thoughts, prayers, discussions and content. Or maybe you feel alone and just want to find solace and comfort regardless of your own unique circumstances. Ancient Faith Radio is here to help with your Orthodox journey. Please consider partnering with us by becoming a monthly recurring donor so that we can continue our mission to spread the Orthodox faith and help support the spiritual lives of the already faithful. Any consistent donation, large or small, will enable us to focus on our mission unabated. Simply visit www.ancientfaith.com support and start your monthly donations today. All gifts are tax deduction and greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Narrator]

We're back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Perhaps you are a haberdasher and have run out of felt. Perhaps you have a club foot and bad breath. Okay. Oh, wait.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Sorry.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow. Haberdasher. That's not a word you get to use every day.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You got to take your shots when you. When. When you get them.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, I know. Yeah, it looked like we were getting a call in there for just a second, but then I guess the person hung up. Wow. They're like, we don't want to talk to those guys.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Psych.

[Interjector/Co-host]

That's true.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, yeah, really, we don't have any more calls because we've offended everyone.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know. They're like, well, I'm done. There was actually, I have to say this because I think he's gone. There was a guy in the chat on YouTube who literally, he said he, he threw a bunch of stuff into the chat and then eventually he said, I can't just sit here and listen to people reading the Torah in English.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I threw out some Hebrew earlier.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, I know. And then the chat very, very politely kind of gave him the by. Felicia. They didn't say that, but pretty close.

[Interjector/Co-host]

So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thanks. Chat.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, I mean, I could do. I could do chunks of this in Hebrew. I. I don't know. That'll be value added for most listeners.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But I know, I don't know. Yeah. But anyway, so actually, it looks like we're getting somebody else in. I don't know who they are, actually. A couple of calls. A couple. Oh. Oh, this is exciting.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Here we go.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I know, I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So what I'm going to say is.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Mike, you know, we're going to just let you. Just. The first person that connects, just drop them right in.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There we go.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Welcome to Laura Spears Podcast. We have no idea who you are or what your deal is, but we're just letting. We're just opening the door right in. So welcome.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Dangerous territory, people here.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Guardrails are off.

[Caller]

Is it me?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's you. You a winner.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is you?

[Caller]

All right, I'm Tyler Minnicks from Atlanta, Georgia.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, Tyler from Atlanta.

[Caller]

I'm the grandson of a very heavily dispensationalist pastor, and my parents are still.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Heavily involved in Georgia. How about that?

[Caller]

In the eye of each church, of course. Right. And I was just. How would I. I don't really know how to approach a conversation with them on these topics without it sort of immediately devolving into. Well, I won't go there, but is there recommendations or tips or a way that I could approach the subject with them that would maybe result in them being a bit more open instead of immediately, you know, shutting that down?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, you know, I don't know. I don't know your. Your kinfolk, but I mean, my first thought is to say, well, maybe it's just not a good idea to have that conversation with them, you know, talk about other stuff. But, I mean, so much depends, of course, on the relationship that you actually have. Right. So is it in a place where it could have this? But. But the thought that comes to my mind is that a lot of people who are formed by dispensationalism often have a very strong curiosity about interest in things related to Judaism. And I think that one of the things I remember, for instance, the late Father James Bernstein, who, I mean, as you can tell from his name, he is of Jewish background and the son of a rabbi. Actually, as I recall, you know, he looked at Orthodox Christianity because he. First he became an evangelical Christian, and then he became an Orthodox Christian, and then eventually an Orthodox priest. He saw Orthodox Christianity as the fulfillment of the Judaism of his fathers. You know, and I think that one. One potential place that might be fruitful is to show, for instance, how a lot of what's going on in the synagogue and temple find their Christian fulfillment in Orthodox Christianity. I mean, to me, like some of the dispensationalist people, when they start to become interested in tradition and history and so forth. They join these Hebrew roots movements that I'm sure you've probably heard of, which are basically evangelicals imagining things about Judaism and trying to kind of add it into their practice. I mean, that's really what it. What it comes down to, honestly, because it doesn't come from any living tradition. It's this reconstruction sort of thing. And sometimes I look at those people and I'm like, you know, you guys, we're right here. You don't have to come up with something. We got it. It's here. It's right here, you know, so. But I mean, this is your family, so you know them best. And openness to difficult conversations really depends so much on, you know, the relationship itself. Like, what does the relationship really look like? I don't know. Father, do you have any suggestions for conversations with dispensationalists?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, I'm not the guy to go to for tact, but.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You want tact, Hire a tactician.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Maybe combat tactics. But no, I mean, the only thing I would say is that, you know, rather than trying to broach it directly, you can ask honest questions, right? Like point out those verses in Joshua and just say, you know, that sounds to me like it's saying that. How would you understand that?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

How does that fit with, you know, and then just leave it there. Just let them think about it and answer however they answer, you know what I mean? And just sort of seed some of those things, you know what I mean? In the sense of like, asking them honest questions, listening to their answer, right? Not pressing it and being like, well, that doesn't make sense, you know, trying to win, right?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Or.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Or convince them of something, but.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Just.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Throw out some of these things from another point of view, you know, that might sort of unsettle some of the things first, right? Because if you try to overturn the whole thing, anybody who you try to overturn their whole worldview is going to react violently. I mean, not literally, hopefully, but I mean, like, they're going to have a strong counter reaction, right? Whereas if you just sort of, you know, pull out a couple of Jenga blocks, right? But the thing's still standing that over time, can end up helping persuade people or get people to see things a lot better than just running and yelling. Everything you've ever thought is a lie, you know, even though the latter is my usual approach.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So that usually works for me, but. No, yeah, no, yeah, yes.

[Caller]

I do get a bit overzealous in my. I just want them to Experience the same thing I've experienced. But, yeah, I'll try that method.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. And. And always, always pray before and after.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Conversations like this. Yeah, always. Always. All right, well, thanks for calling, Tyler.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, well, that's it for the call board. So let's. Let's move on into the third half. So we just. We left it with the temporary Josiah program. So how's it going?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The. Unfortunately, too little too late.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, he did. Right. He did. Right. He did what was right in the side of the Lord. But. Yes, they weren't. They weren't ready for it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But he didn't have a bunch of followers who also did that, unfortunately.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

People were not as faithful as he, sort of. Yeah. So now as we get ready to talk about the end of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, we need to. And I've done this on the show before, but this bears doing because, again, we got to blow up some Sunday school. We need to talk about what kind of time frames we're actually talking about here.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So pre 1948, there was a nation or kingdom or political entity in the world named Israel, named Yitzrael for our friend who left the chat.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Say pre1948. You don't mean 1947.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Whatever. It's way B.C.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It'S B.C.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Yeah. So, but I'm not including that.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

My point being, I'm not including that in the whole history of the Earth, there was a political entity called Israel for about 200 years.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Like, younger than, you know, less time than. Than America.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. So that's Saul and David through the end of the Northern kingdom. So there was a political entity called Israel in the world for about 200 years of human history. Tiny amount of time.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So that. That includes even the divided kingdom, which, as we know, starts really, you know, just a couple generations in.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That Saul and David through the fall of the northern kingdom of Israel. So there is something called Israel.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

As a kind of single political entity. Because during the time of the judges, there isn't a political entity Israel. There's the tribes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're all doing their own thing.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's no connecting or overarching anything. Now, if you want to go Judah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The tribe of Judah, from David to the exile of Judah is about 350 years, which is better than 200 years, but still kind of a drop in the bucket compared to human history.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So that's the Judah kingdom, basically, up until Babylon drags them all off. Well, right. Of them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. So this is not like a nation that was there for a long period of human history. Frankly, the Canaanites were there longer.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Technically, the Romans were there longer.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But, right, that's. That's the kind of timeframe we're talking about. This isn't a huge span of swath of history. This is a blank.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So the Northern Kingdom of Israel, of course, gets destroyed circa 722 BC by the Assyrians.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, yes, the Assyrians.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, those Assyrian. But by the Assyrians.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Syrians. Yes. Yeah, I mean, the Assyrians. People don't know, you guys.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Empire of Nineveh.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, they're. They're in that period of history. They are the worst. They are the worst. They're super nasty, horrifying, freaky nightmare people. Like, if you really want the whole story, go and listen to. So the Fall of Civilizations podcast, which is magnificent. They did a whole episode on the Assyrians and you think Lord of Spirits episodes are long.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Listen to Fall Civilizations.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Most of those episodes are like four hours these days.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But yeah, you'll get the whole nine yards. And it includes the places where Assyria interacts with Israel actually is in that podcast.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So yeah. The Assyrians, for example, have these sort of blood curdling conquest accounts.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Of their own conquests as they establish this.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. This is not other people talking about.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Them great world empire. No, this is them bragging.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Bragging on them. They're. They're doing things like hanging people's skins from the walls of their city.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes. They liked to. This is frequent in their conquest accounts. They would, after they took a city and beheaded everyone, they would stack up the heads, all the kids heads in one place, all the women's heads, all the men's heads in another place and see which one was the tallest.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You gotta imagine, probably there was like people taking bets on that or whatever.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Tallest pile.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is the kind of stuff they did. So they would come to a city, they lay siege to it, they'd say, surrender. If you didn't surrender, they'd wipe you out like that. It commit atrocities on purpose. Because then when they rolled up on the next city, it said, hey, surrender. That city would surrender after hearing about what they did in the last place.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And you see this when you see the siege of like Jerusalem. They lay siege to Jerusalem too. In scripture, you could see all the trash talk from the Assyrian general.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He literally comes out and says, you know, yeah, I know you people are trusting in your gods to save you. But all the cities I just conquered were trusting in their gods too.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. What makes you different?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. There's like this bad smack talk going on, right, with the Assyrians. Like, they were brutal. And so if you did surrender to them, what happened to you? So among the Israelites, there were some who surrendered and some who didn't.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so a lot of the people in the Northern kingdom just got exterminated by the Assyrians. But the cities and regions of farmland and stuff that surrendered, they would. The Assyrians were smart enough to realize that, hey, if you take over a city or take over some land, the indigenous people there will be willing to fight and die to try to get their freedom and get that control of their land back.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So they would take the people from the land they conquered and move them to somewhere on the other end of their empire and then take people from the other end of their empire and move them to the newly acquired territory so that all of the common people living under the Assyrian yoke were working, living on and working land that they had no real connection to, no ancestral connection to. And that helped them prevent insurrections so they didn't have to go around stomping out insurrections all the time. They could just focus on expanding.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So, yeah, very bad people. This is why their capital was the city of Nineveh. This is why when God tells Jonah, hey, I want you to go to Nineveh and tell them I'm going to destroy their city, Jonah's like, nope, and heads in the opposite direction.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. He's like, no, I want you to destroy those people are the worst.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. So, like, picture, you know, God comes to you in 1943 and says, I want you to fly to Berlin and I want you to tell them that they are very bad and I'm going to destroy them.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Doesn't sound like a good plan.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right Now, Jonah should have had courage and confidence in God and everything, Right? We're not saying that, but you can understand the human response of Abira.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is an extraordinarily bad idea. And you can also understand why Jonah gets kind of upset when the city isn't destroyed.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because he knows all the Assyrians have done, and he kind of thinks they deserve it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, Right. Look, God, I know you're merciful, but do you really have to be merciful to them?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like these guys?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Are you serious? Yeah, Right? They're the worst and there. And, I mean, I should just. I think it's Just worth saying. And then in the Gospels, their repentance at the preaching of Jonah is held up against the unfaithfulness of Israel.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The cities that Christ preached and worked miracles in that did not repent.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. So as of 722 BC, there is no more northern kingdom of Israel. As I've mentioned before on the show, I think a former professor of mine, Lawson Younger, actually found the lost tribes of Israel in that he spent years and years pouring over Assyrian tablets for essentially Israelite names, like Hebrew names, and located the villages in Assyria to which the Israelites who surrendered were deported.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Meanwhile, the people who they brought in to the area around Samaria, the capital of the Northern Kingdom, intermarried with the survivors.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who were of Israelite descent. And those people became the Samaritans, who we then. Which is why the New Testament.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Which is why they have this weird syncretistic religion.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, well, yeah. And we'll. We'll be getting into the Samaritans a lot more in our next episode.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Indeed, indeed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So then with them gone, all that's left is Judah. The Kingdom of Judah, we already mentioned it's small. They're going to last until 587, 586 BC.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So a little bit longer. Almost 150 years longer before they're deported, taken into exile in Babylon. But to give you an idea of how tiny the Kingdom of Judah was.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. We looked this up.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. And the Kingdom of Judah was roughly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

3,400 square miles, which is just about 1 Puerto Rico.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. That it is the size. It was the size of Puerto Rico or.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Or slightly less than three Rhode Islands.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So not huge, not big.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Smaller than the modern nation state by far.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, for sure. Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Smaller than most states of the U.S. yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

About the size of Puerto Rico, which, by the way, is part of the United States. We're educating while we enter.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I've heard that. And much like Guam was taken in, we received it part of the Spanish American War.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But so. And as we already read.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

In the last half, it's preserved by God for the sake of David. For the sake of David and David's line. And the son of David who is coming.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That king who is coming. But we also have to point out a reminder. We've talked about this before on the show, but, you know, we've given this very bleak picture in terms of the disobedience of both the northern and southern kingdoms and all the wickedness. But remember, all through this, right. There is a faithful remnant. There are people. King Josiah was one of them. But there's also just common people, right. Elijah gets reminded about them by God in both the northern and southern kingdoms. Common people who are doing their best, albeit without the help of any kind of societal structures, but who are doing their best for themselves and their families to keep Torah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And to be faithful to God. There's this faithful remnant all the way through. So it's never everybody. But it's also.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We tend to. We're modern people, right. We think of everyone means every individual, all taken together.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And that's not how people thought until very recently.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It was the exact opposite. So collectively, Israel and Judah were completely disobedient. But that doesn't mean every individual was.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right, Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There were persons who were faithful within that, but the collective was not. That's important for understanding what, what we're going to Read next. So St. Paul is going to talk about everyone who is under the Torah being under its curse being under the curse of the Torah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Specifically meaning the curses in Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 29, 30, death, exile.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Because the northern kingdom, dead, southern kingdom, exile.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And he talks about that, and that's important for understanding the language he uses. For example, in Galatians chapter 3, about the curse of the law or the curse of the Torah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. This is interesting. So Galatians 3, starting with verse 10. For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law and do them. Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for the righteous shall live by faith. But the law is not of faith. Rather, the one who does them shall live by them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So again, what he's talking about the curse of. And again, that's a Protestant translation. So we'd have to. I'm not going to go through and parse.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Listen to the whole council of God or look at it in the. My Paul book. But he means that curse of the law, right? Everyone who keeps the works of the Torah, right? Everyone Jewish.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Everyone who is under the Torah is under its curse. He means that very literally.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're either dead or in exile.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. At that point, it's bad for Israel.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's it.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He's not saying.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Every single one of you has violated the Torah and therefore are accursed before God. Again, this is collective.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We're all under the curse. We're all in exile.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right. Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And so there's nobody who. There aren't Jewish people around there at that time who you can collectively say, oh, no, the Torah says everything's good.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

They're all under the curse.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

None of them are receiving the blessings. And so. But Christ is the one who comes and not only redeems the people from those who are the people who are under the Torah for being under its curse.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But also is the vehicle through which, in verse 14, the promises to Abraham are received not only by those who are under the Torah, but also by the Gentiles, by the nations.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The nations, yeah, through the whole world.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So Christ, St. Paul is saying, Jesus, the Messiah, ends the exile for those under the Torah and delivers the promises made to Abraham both to those faith, those who are faithful under the Torah, and to those who are faithful from among the nations. That's the point he's making.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yep.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And again, this is a key theme, especially in St. Paul's Epistle of the Romans, is that the failure of Israel is not a failure of God's promises. It's not a failure of the Torah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's the failure of maybe some. Maybe most people.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's. I mean, and this connects directly to what St. Paul says in Galatians 3, when he says, for all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse. He doesn't mean you're cursed if you do what the Torah says. He's saying, those of us who are trying to keep the Torah, we're under the curse.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. It's not like a metaphysical. It's not a system. It's a metaphysical system. He's just talking about his people.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So God has kept all of his promises. God has kept all of his promises. But a lot of people who received the promises did not receive the fulfillment, did not receive the inheritance. Why? Because they were not faithful.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But the.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Promises still stand, and God was still true to them.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Now there's another important piece here.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's another important piece here. So as we're addressing.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What we're leading up to tonight is we're sort of at the end of tonight's episode we're going to say, okay, here's where things stand in terms of how the promises to Abraham are going to be fulfilled and things are going to be taken care of at the very beginning of the Second Temple period. And then next time we're going to talk about the Second Temple period, the history of Israel going through that period, which I know a lot of folks don't know, because a lot of it's not in Protestant Bibles. And so you're probably not familiar with a lot of that history, like Asmonians and stuff. But we're going to get into that next time. But. But there's another big, important piece here. And to get at this piece, we have to read a couple of things from a couple of books of the Old Testament that are going to seem somewhat obscure, but we're going to explain why they're important. So this starts with a prophecy that Jeremiah makes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Okay, so this is From Jeremiah, chapter 25, starting with verse 8. Therefore, Thus says the Lord of hosts, because you have not obeyed my words. Behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant. And I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction and make them a horror, a hissing and an everlasting desolation. Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon. 70 years. Then, after 70 years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Notice something there, right? God is going to use Babylon, the Neo Babylonian empire, specifically in this case, to judge the people of Judah.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that fact doesn't justify all the things that Babylon is going to do.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, Babylon's going to get it too.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, Babylon is also going to be judged for its wickedness.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But God is going to use them as a tool. But now there's this period of 70 years, right? Jeremiah's prophesying that exile will last for 70 years. And in terms of why 70 years, Second Chronicles, of all places, sheds a little light on that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So in second Chronicles 36, verse 21, to fulfill the word of the Lord, by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths, all the days that it lay desolate, it kept Sabbath to fulfill. 70 years. So what's that all about? Why 70 years in particular? What does that have to do with the Sabbath?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Seventy Sabbath years, yeah. So from the end of the conquest to the exile.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Is being presented here as being 490 years, meaning there were 70 times.

[Interjector/Co-host]

That.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Israel should have celebrated a Sabbath year. But as we mentioned, they never did, not once. So this order that was prescribed by the Torah of every seventh year being a Sabbath and then every 50th year being a jubilee, they never practiced either of them. They're supposed to. Every seventh year, they're supposed to let the land rest. Since they didn't do that, God says, I'm going to take you out of the land for 70 years, and it's going to rest for 70 years. The 70 Sabbath years that you owe me. Right, yeah, that you owe the land.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And as I recall, during that Sabbath year, those who owned the land were supposed to kind of back away from it and let poor people work it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. They're supposed to leave it alone. And poor people and strangers and beggars could come and harvest the land.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, exactly. So it's. And, and then. But then that would mean. I mean, that's a risky thing to do. That means you're relying on God.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You're relying on God. If you say, okay, every seven years, you're going to take a year off from your job. Right. I mean, that's kind of what it would be.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know, and you're not going to get paid during that year, but God is going to take care of you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, but so why is this such a big deal?

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The Sabbath year, like, if you're gonna make a list of the commandments that the Israelites broke.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sabbath year's on the list somewhere. But I mean, is it that big of a deal? It fits. Sacrifice way higher.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Idolatry, sexuality. Right. Like, there's a lot of stuff over. Oh, yeah, you didn't practice the Sabbath year.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Like I said, it's on the list. So why is this one being presented here as sort of paradigmatic? The reason this is paradigmatic is that as we've been saying for the last two episodes, the Torah describes a social order. It describes an ordered way of life, an ordered collective way of life for the people of Israel. And as we've also said in both of these last two episodes repeatedly and shown as we've gone through the history, that order that's prescribed by the Torah was never realized in the actual history and life of the people of Israel. And so what this is saying to us, what Jeremiah and Second Chronicles are saying to us, is that they never kept it, they never practiced it, they never followed it. And so God is going to act to establish that order, that in the exile God is beginning to act to establish that order. And once again, remember the idea of a sign with a prophecy. God says beforehand that it's going to last for 70 years. So then when it does last for 70 years, you can say, ah, God established his order, the order described in the Torah in this one point, then he will certainly act in the future to establish the fullness of that order, the fullness of that way of life. And as we've already seen, that action according to the same Second Chronicles is going to happen through the Messiah. So the expectation, as we enter into the exile and beginning the return from the exile after that 70 years, the expectation is that God is going to intervene and he's going to intervene too. And here's just something we could say more. But number one, to free them from the curse of the Torah, meaning reverse the exile, right? And as part of that, restore Israel. But when he restores Israel, he's going to restore both parts. He's not just going to bring Judah back from exile, but he's also going to somehow restore the northern kingdom. He's going to restore all 12 tribes. In reversing the curse of the Torah, he is going to intervene. He's going to act to establish justice, the justice, the order prescribed by the Torah, meaning he is going to justify his people. He's going to set things right the way they should be, not just tell them, here's how to do it. But he is going to do it. He's going to establish his kingdom forever. Not just provisionally, not just a sign of his kingdom in the earthly kingdom of David, but his actual kingdom forever. And he is going to enthrone the Messiah as king over that kingdom. This is the expectation. And so what we're going to be talking about next episode is going to be how that expectation gets shaped and even transformed over the course of the Second Temple period due to political realities and other things that happen historically. And then how this plays out into the New Testament with the New Testament text being all of them Second Temple Jewish literature.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Well, here we are at the end of this part two of. Is this still a three part series, Father? Are we going to Three part.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I mean, we're doing a third one, so.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. I'm just wondering, will there be a fourth with a fifth? You never know. But in any event, I, you know, so last episode, in this episode, we quite understandably have done a lot of talk about dispensationalism. And I think it's important not just as a kind of theological punching bag, but because it, at least for people who are listening to us in the English language, as we know that most of you are Americans, although, you know, we had some, some checking in from a number of disparate places throughout the world, and we're very happy to have everybody that dispensationalism has affected a lot of, a lot of religious thinking, Christian thinking in America, and as we mentioned, also even our, our foreign policy. And while it's interesting, of course, to talk about the political ramifications of this theology, what's more important to me is the way that it shapes how we think about the Bible. And this affects people who are not part of dispensationalist denominations or traditions. You know, it's. It's a kind of meme that has made its way into a lot of Christian thinking in the west, and particularly in the United States. And besides the particulars that we've discussed, it also has a kind of structural problem that it imposes on how we see the Scriptures, how we see what it means to be Christian. One of the projects that has been a big, big part of this podcast, and I know especially Father, for your first book, Religion the Apostles, is to show how the Old and the New Testament are really one, that it's really one thing, right, that it's not, okay, there's this religion of the Old Testament and then there's this other religion of the New Testament that are related, but not the same thing. And what dispensationalism does, because it has this idea of a covenant for Jewish people that if they do that, then they can be saved and then there's a covenant for Christians, and if they do that, then they can be saved. And because of this sort of dividing of the world into eras that are. That is connected to that as well, dispensations, that what happens then is there's this kind of sequestering off of big chunks of what is Christian tradition, namely the Old Testament, especially, such that it's all kind of relativized in a certain way. Like we talked about reading forwards. Reading backwards, you know, earlier, but it almost introduces a kind of crypto, marcionism. And so maybe you've not heard that word before. Marcionism. Marcionism is a heretic of the early church who essentially says that the God of the Old Testament is. This is the creator God and he's wicked. And the Father of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is a different God, and he's good and loves us and wants to save us from the God of the Old Testament. You can see how ridiculously heretical that is. But you can also see what the implication for not just hermeneutics, but even what constitutes the Scripture. Marcion basically wants to toss out the Old Testament, and not surprisingly, he has his own version of the New Testament that. That edits out, kind of cuts a lot of the stuff that seems to validate the Old Testament. And even for Christians who will say that they believe everything in the Old Testament, there is often the sense of, okay, well, there's a whole bunch of stuff that's here and it's good and true for this period. And then it gets negated, you know, or replaced or whatever later on for Christians. And, and this is honestly, this is the basis of like, we had the one caller who asked about these people who think that, that there needs to be another temple in Jerusalem where they're going to offer up animal sacrifices. And it's because of this sort of sequestering off, you know, these elements. Well, that doesn't apply to everybody, but it does apply to these people. To these people, you know, and, you know, we reacted with incredulity to that because shouldn't Jewish people shouldn't. Is, you know, Israelites, however, you know, whatever. Shouldn't they have Jesus too? Right. To turn to animal sacrifice in another temple is to turn away from Christ. Shouldn't they have Jesus too? Shouldn't they be Christians too? You know, and so it's this fragmentation that's introduced by this view of the scripture that is. Is the problem. It's not. The scripture is not fragmented. It's. It's one. Father Stephen just said that the New Testament is Second Temple Jewish literature. And it's easier to understand perhaps conceptually, maybe, because for a lot of people, Second Temple Jewish literature is a relatively newer concept that they may not be familiar with to understand. Okay, this is Jewish as well. Well, the New Testament is a Jewish document, set of documents, really. It represents a particular strain of one Judaism, as it were at the time. And that doesn't relativize it, that doesn't demote it by any means, because we explicitly believe this is the one that's true. This is the one that gets everything right. This is the one that is validated by the Messiah himself.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, as St. John says. And so I think, you know, if you're a Christian and you love the scripture, you're putting artificial speed bumps and blocks and, you know, whatever obstructions on your understanding of the Scriptures, if you accept dispensationalist thinking, whether you belong to a dispensationalist denomination or tradition or not, you know, if you say something like, well, that was for the Jews and then this is for Christians, then you're. Then you have accepted on some level, dispensationalist thinking. You know, if you, if you look at the Bible that way. Yes, of course. And we've talked about this in great detail. There are things from the old Covenant that get transformed in the new Covenant. Covenant, absolutely. But when Jesus says that not one, you know, jot or tittle as it is in, in the good old King James version of the law is going to pass away, he wasn't. He wasn't joking, you know, he wasn't that he really meant that. So that means that all of it is kept. The whole Torah is kept in Christianity. It's not a separate covenant. Right. The new covenant is the transformed old covenant. It is the renewed covenant. And that in that renewal, there are things that change for sure. But it is one. It's all one. As you know, as you like to point out, Father Stephen, St. Paul did not convert to another religion. He's a Pharisee who remained a Pharisee. And he just needed to realize, hold on, hold on. These events have happened that you've always hoped to for as a Pharisee. Oh, so then that means this is happening now.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So understanding the Scriptures is such an important part of what it means to be a Christian. So, so important. You know, it. It's honestly like one of the, One of the things I love the most when we did our first Lord of Spirits conferences are there's hundreds of people that showed up to this conference, and they want to know the scriptures. They want to understand the scriptures. That's why they're there. And if you're listening this podcast, you probably, that's. That's what you want. You want to understand the scriptures. That's what we're working on here, right? And so understanding the scriptures, part of that means knowing what these big arcs are and how it all connects. And so that's part of what's going on in this. This series of episodes about the history of Israel is seeing what some of the big overarching narrative arcs are, but also seeing how it's all one. So don't let dispensationalism cut it into pieces for you. It's. It's all one, Father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So Carl Bartlett, German theologian writing in the early 20th century, said the great threats to Christianity that were coming along in order would be first, National Socialism, which he saw on the rise in his own country of Germany, followed by communism, followed by Americanism. Guess where we are today. If you've listened to my whole Council of God Bible study on Revelation, this won't shock you as much as it will if you haven't. But frankly, the United States of America is our current incarnation of the Whore of Babylon in the world. Before the early 20th century, it was Britain, so. But now it's the United States of America. And I say this as an American. And the reason for that is that America and Americanism, right, has basically colonized the world, but in a much more subtle way than the British ever did. The British Empire was profoundly unsubtle in its colonization tactics because America doesn't primarily colonize in the sense that they did, like going and taking over countries and making them vassal states, right? And making them all speak American, English, et cetera. America and Americanism tend to colonize the minds of people all over the world. American ideas and ideals, right? And that's shown by how we colonize, right? We colonize by exporting movies and television shows and cultural artifacts and McDonald's and good old capitalism and Coca Cola all over the world. Mickey Mouse. And the most deeply colonized people by Americanism, of course, are Americans. We're the ones on whom the job has been done most thoroughly. And so we approach things as Americans from the perspective of American values. I have sat in graduate school classes and had biblical studies professors argue to me that Genesis describes the separation of church and state, that when Judges says, in those days there was no king and everyone did what was right in his own eyes, that was a good thing. They have argued to me, because king's bad.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Something like our anarcho capitalism good.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Or.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

At least minarchism, right? Minimum possible government, so everyone can do their own thing. Those are kind of egregious examples of sort of importing this whole American worldview into the scriptures as we read them. But American forms of Christianity have also colonized a lot of Christianity and dispensationalism, no, no less than the others. Certainly in some of its views. And so, I mean, I started out this episode by calling a bunch of people blasphemers. But you'll notice I said they weren't intending to be blasphemers, just believe something they were taught by someone else who believed it because they were taught it, right? And it's just ingrained. It's an ingrained idea. We've criticized some other views over the course of this episode. And they're just these ingrained ideas that are in our heads. And so when we look at the scriptures, we see them. If we look at a passage that seems to contradict them, oh, that's a tough passage. The ones that we can read in a way that are commensurate with those ideas, we're like, oh, there's an easy passage. Well, we'll interpret everything in light of that. And we don't realize just how much we've been shaped. If you want to understand the scriptures, if you're ever reading and studying the scriptures and you don't feel like you're in a foreign country, you don't feel a sense of uncanniness, a sense of strangeness, you don't feel like you've left your comfortable day to day American or quasi American or depending on who's listening, right? First World, Western, whatever we want to say, lifestyle, and gone to someplace different, another place, another time, another culture, another way of looking at the world, another set of values. Then you're not really reading the Bible, you're reading the traditions, the ways of thought, the ideas that have colonized your own mind. And you're just sort of caught in this circle, in this cycle that's hard to break, but the only way to break it is to step outside of it. One of the reasons, right, there's always madness to my method, right? One of the reasons why I sometimes put things in the most, maybe not the most, but in more shocking ways than are necessary on this show. Maybe a little more jolting or emphatic than they need to be, is to try to help with this.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

To try to really help somebody who wants to get out of the vicious cycle of reading in, maybe jolt them out of it a little bit, maybe break a few things, right? To make things get cleaned up and reorganized. I'm honestly trying to help. My intentions are good. Outcomes may vary, but that's where we need to go. We should always feel, as I said when we're studying the Scriptures, like we're in a foreign land, we're in a different place, a place where we're kind of a stranger and we're trying to understand and we're trying to enculturate ourselves and we're trying to fit into this other way of thinking and this other way of being, this other way of seeing. And the same thing is true. Same thing is true when we go to church. Same thing is true when we're in liturgical services, when we're entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. If that doesn't feel like a little bit of a foreign country to us, if that doesn't feel a little strange, if it doesn't feel like we don't quite fit and we're going to need to change and we're going to need to acculturate ourselves and we're going to need to learn new language and new ways of talking and thinking in order to fit, then that means we haven't left home, that we're still stuck in the place where we started. I don't think from how I started this that I think America is exceptionally bad. I don't. I don't think it's any worse than Britain.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Just our numbers up right now. I don't think it's any worse than any other country. But I do think that, like every country in this world, it is a foreign country to the Kingdom of God. I do think that it is not the kingdom, it is not becoming the kingdom, and it is not going to become the kingdom. Neither is the nation state of Israel or any other country on this earth. So I hope that maybe one of the things we do on this show, by breaking up settled notions of this kind of thing, like in these last couple and in our next episode, by breaking up a lot of these settled notions, hopefully at least for some folks who want to try to get there, it'll help restore that sense of uncanniness, that sense of not at homeness.

[Interjector/Co-host]

Where.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We'Re coming and trying to understand and trying to fit ourselves in with the things of God, because that's the only way we can grow and change and ultimately be conformed to the likeness of Christ.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Amen. Well, that is our show for tonight. Thank you very much, everyone, for listening. If you didn't happen to get through to us live, we'd still like to hear from you. You can email [e-mail] you can message us at our Facebook page. You can also leave us a [e-mail] LordOfSpirits if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christ, Christianity, or you need help to find a parish, head over to orthodox intro.org join us for a live.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Broadcast on the second and fourth Thursdays of the month at 7pm Eastern 4pm Pacific. Adrenaline in my soul Every fight out of control. Do it all to get them off their feet.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And if you are on Facebook you can follow our page, you can join our very active discussion group. Leave ratings and reviews in the appropriate places, all of just five stars obviously. And also share this show with a friend. And I'm told that this amused somebody last time I said it. Also share it with your enemies.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And finally, be sure to go to ancient faith.com stroke support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. Crowd is here about to blow waiting for me to start the show. Cut the curtain lights, go on. I'm home.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Thank you, Good night. God bless you. Christmas has risen.

[Narrator]

You've been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung, a listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio. And I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders, and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lord Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.