The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: Kingdoms of Israel: Reckoning

Date: May 9, 2025
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

Episode Overview

This deep-dive episode continues the three-part exploration of the history of Israel after the Exodus, focusing on the conquest of Canaan, the problem of the “giant clans,” the conditionality of God’s promises to Israel, the failures of the Israelite tribes, and the rise and fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. The hosts critically address popular misunderstandings, especially surrounding dispensationalism and the relationship between the Old and New Testaments, while unpacking the spiritual reality of Israel through the lens of Orthodox Christian tradition.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mythbusting: The Torah, Human Capability, and Blasphemy

• [04:00–09:31] Fr. Stephen De Young’s Rant on a Common Misconception
  • Topic: The misconception that God gave the Torah to "show we couldn't keep it."
  • Quote: “[If] God gave them this commandments knowing that...they couldn't keep it, but then told them they could, then punished them... That’s blasphemy.” – Fr. Stephen [08:25]
  • Insight: The Torah, according to Deuteronomy 30, was presented as keepable; saying otherwise impugns God’s character and contradicts Scripture.

2. The Conquest of Canaan & The Nature of “Genocide” Arguments

• [10:27–24:27] The Reality of Joshua’s Conquest
  • The conquest was not wholesale genocide but targeted towards specific "giant clans" engaged in abominable rituals (e.g., human sacrifice, cannibalism).
  • Membership in Clans: Based on ritual participation, not ethnicity or “race.” Leaving the rituals, one could become an Israelite or Egyptian, etc.
  • Examples: Rahab and Caleb (an ex-Kenizite) integrating into Israel [21:40].
  • Quote: “What God is commanding is there must be no more Kenizites, no more Girgashites, no more Rephaim... That doesn't mean every single man, woman and child has to die.” – Fr. Stephen [22:24]
  • Modern Application: Discomfort with Bronze Age violence often stems from not grasping the true horrors of the ancient world, where practices like child sacrifice were real and abhorrent even to brutal empires like Rome.

3. Conditionality of the Land and God’s Promises

• [28:08–33:14] The Nature of the Promise
  • Conditional Promises: The land was given as a conditional sign of higher, eternal promises (theosis, eternal life).
  • Loss of Land: When the Israelites (or any nation) become as wicked as those who lost the land before, they too are dispossessed.
  • Quote: “There is a conditionality to the land. And so the fact that this belonged to another group, that other group lost it... That dynamic may remind you of some things in the New Testament...” – Fr. Stephen [30:37]

4. Distribution of the Land and Persistent Disobedience

• [33:53–39:08]
  • The Torah’s system never actually manifested in history (“...it didn’t even start” [33:50]), as tribes like Dan defied their God-allotted portion and seized other lands, sometimes violently and idolatrously.

5. The Case of Dan: Idolaters and Rejection of Their Allotment

• [39:08–47:41] Judges 18 Account
  • The tribe of Dan refused its given land, choosing instead to attack peaceful people in the north; they set up alternate idol-worship and priesthood from the very start.
  • Quote: “Dan is sort of the most egregious example of... those land grants were... pretty much ignored.” – Fr. Stephen [47:56]

6. The Fulfillment of God’s Promises Regarding the Land

• [48:32–50:58] The Joshua 21 Bombshell
  • Joshua 21:43–45 and 11:23 state explicitly that God gave all the land as promised: “Not one word of all the good promises that the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.” [50:18]
  • Rebuttal to Dispensationalism: There is no “unfulfilled” land promise; God kept His word.

7. The Difference Between God’s Giving and Israel’s Receiving

• [54:14–62:21] Dispensational/Covenantal Misreadings
  • God giving a gift doesn’t mean all automatically receive it; faithfulness is required to possess the inheritance.
  • Quote: “There’s a distinction between God giving and people receiving.” – Fr. Stephen [55:17]

8. From Joshua to Judges: The Descent into Anarchy

• [63:04–65:58] Judges Era
  • After Joshua, Israel falls into chaos: “In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” (Judges)
  • Quote: “To have any kind of good order... requires a king.” – Fr. Stephen [65:35]

Notable Listener Questions & Call-in Highlights

1. Dispensationalist Interpretation of Joshua

• [68:12–74:14]
  • Question: If the land promises are explicitly fulfilled, how do dispensationalists reconcile this?
  • Answer: Most can’t; they usually sidestep or ignore these passages, treating them as “difficult”; for many, the paradigm is self-reinforcing and not open to biblical correction.

2. “Genocide” and the Amalekites

• [78:41–86:25]
  • The command to utterly destroy the Amalekites is case-specific, due to their hostility and context; it does not license indiscriminate violence, and conversion/mercy was always possible (e.g., Caleb).

3. Third Temple and Sacrifices

• [87:13–91:14]
  • Dispensational hopes for a Third Temple are theologically problematic for Orthodoxy; Christ is the fulfillment, and many Church Fathers linked a literal Third Temple to the Antichrist, not a return to God’s plan.
  • Quote: “When they talk about there being a third temple, it’s built by the Antichrist.” – Fr. Stephen [91:08]

4. Talking to Dispensationalist Loved Ones

• [135:27–140:51]
  • Approach with patience, asking genuine questions, not confrontations; drastic targeted paradigm shifts often provoke pushback. “Just throw out some of these things from another point of view... not to win, but to seed some ideas.” – Fr. Stephen [139:38]

Later Historical Developments

1. The Monarchies: Saul, David, and Solomon

• [95:32–121:18]
  • Kingship was not a rebellion against God; Deuteronomy 17 provided for it.
  • Saul was a “war chief,” not a bureaucratic king. David solidified the kingdom, completed the mission to destroy the giants, but Solomon’s apostasy resulted in divided kingdoms.

2. The Divided Kingdoms & Their Religions

• [123:26–131:10]
  • Jeroboam created a rival religion with golden calves at Bethel and Dan; the north adopted syncretism and Baal worship, while Judah fared only slightly better.

3. Destruction and Exile: Understanding the Historical Scope

• [141:32–151:04]
  • Israel (the northern kingdom) only existed ~200 years, Judah ~350 years.
  • The Assyrians erased Israel, deported its population, and created the Samaritans through intermarriage.
  • Judah survived longer, but was eventually carried off by Babylon.

4. Collective Responsibility and the “Curse of the Law”

• [153:49–157:05]
  • Paul’s references to the “curse of the law” mean the curse of exile and death upon the collective nation, not every individual’s personal damnation.

5. The 70-Year Exile and Sabbath Years

• [159:52–164:23]
  • Jeremiah prophesied 70 years as repayment for missed Sabbath years (every seventh year of rest for the land) – a sign that God himself would establish the order Israel failed to keep.

6. Looking Forward: The Messianic Hope

• [164:23–168:16]
  • Upon return from exile, the expectation crystallizes: God would restore all twelve tribes, forgive the curse, establish justice, and enthrone the Messiah, whose kingdom and fidelity would be universal and unending.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Blasphemous Readings of Torah:
  “When you say that, I know you haven’t thought it through. I know you’re not intentionally blaspheming. Right, but it is blasphemy.” – Fr. Stephen [08:31]

• On Conditional Promises:
  “There is a conditionality to the land... That dynamic may remind you of some things in the New Testament, like Christ’s parable of the vineyard.” – Fr. Stephen [30:37]

• On the Difference Between Giving & Receiving:
  “There’s a distinction between God giving and people receiving.” – Fr. Stephen [55:17]

• On the “Curse of the Law”:
  “Everyone who is under the Torah is under its curse... They’re either dead or in exile.” – Fr. Stephen [155:47]

• On Modern American Christianity:
  “If you’re ever reading and studying the scriptures and you don’t feel like you’re in a foreign country, you’re not really reading the Bible, you’re reading the traditions, the ways of thought, the ideas that have colonized your own mind.” – Fr. Stephen [182:36]

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|---------------:| | The Torah “set up to fail” myth debunked | [04:00–09:31] | | Joshua’s conquest, giant clans, ritual identity | [10:27–24:27] | | Conditionality of land & the Abraham promise | [28:08–33:14] | | Failure of the land distribution (Dan, et al) | [39:08–47:41] | | Fulfillment of the land promises & typology | [48:32–54:14] | | Difference between God’s giving, Israel’s receiving | [54:14–62:21] | | Descent into anarchy and need for a king | [63:04–65:58] | | Dynamics of the Judges and early kingship | [95:32–121:18] | | Division, idolatry, and the north’s apostasy | [123:26–131:10]| | The short-lived reality of ancient Israel/Judah | [141:32–151:04]| | Exile, “curse of the Law,” and sabbath years | [153:49–164:23]| | Messianic expectation after exile | [164:23–168:16]|

Tone and Style

• Signature banter, inside jokes (“overeducated marsh troll” / “perched atop podcasting tower”), and listener in-jokes (“giant killers, dragon slayers, Hamadryad hackers”).
• Direct, unsparing, but pastoral correction of popular errors.
• Readings and exegesis always anchored in the original scriptural text.
• Passionate advocacy for reading the Bible on its own terms, not through modern paradigms.

Final Thoughts

The episode concludes by challenging listeners to question their inherited paradigms, experience the “strangeness” of the Bible, and to recognize that membership in God’s people is always about fidelity and transformation, not mere identity or biological descent. Promises are kept by God, but only received by the faithful – a message vital for understanding not only ancient Israel, but Christian identity today.

Next Episode: The story continues into the Second Temple period, with exploration of how messianic hopes evolved as Israel reckoned with disaster, restoration, and the eventual coming of Christ.

For further questions or to share thoughts, listeners are invited to email, join the discussion group, or leave a voicemail (see episode’s closing notes).