The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode 100: Mutatis Mutandis

Date: September 27, 2024
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen DeYoung
Presented by: Ancient Faith Ministries

Episode Overview

For their milestone 100th episode, Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen tackle the question of “continuity and change” in Orthodox Christianity—and religious tradition more broadly. Building on the previous episode’s sweep through human religious history, they ask: If Orthodoxy is “unchanging,” why do so many things differ—from Genesis, to Second Temple Judaism, to 21st-century practice? Where is continuity found, and how much change is too much? Along the way, they reflect on the “seen and unseen world” in the Orthodox tradition, answer lively caller questions on everything from animal sacrifices to the harrowing of hell, share personal anecdotes, and celebrate four years (and 270+ hours!) of podcasting.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Celebration, Format, and Setup

• The show is broadcast live from the Ancient Faith Ministries HQ in Indiana, with a relaxed, celebratory, and “chaotic” energy (“sheer anarchy,” [02:23]).
• Co-hosts reminisce about past episodes, the show’s unexpectedly long duration, and their adventures (and mishaps) both on and off the air.

2. The “Unchanging” Faith: What Does Continuity Really Mean?

• Key Issue: Orthodox Christianity is often called “unchanging”—yet the details of worship, piety, and organization have changed across eras. So what is continuity, and what counts as a decisive break?
• Fr. Andrew: “The faith which established the universe”—is that literally unchanged? Clearly not in outward details ([04:41]).
• Fr. Stephen: “So, what does unchanging actually mean? Is there acceptable change?” ([04:41])
• Playful banter about “pan-heresy of ecumenism” sets the stage.

Subpoints on Continuity/Discontinuity:

• While there is broad continuity from Genesis to Christianity, there are necessary distinctions. “How much change or variation... makes a discontinuity?” ([10:04])
• The aim is not “perennialism”—not all religious paths are equally valid or identical. Continuity does not erase real breaks or differences.

3. Recap of the Religious Story of Humanity

• Early Human Religion: Even among hunter-gatherers, there’s memory of one God, fading into “sky god” and eventually paganism.
• The Neolithic Revolution: Sedentary life gives rise to “sky father/earth mother” motifs, distinct deities, and sacrifices at permanent shrines ([13:06–14:14]).
• Continuity and Remnants: Figures like Melchizedek—worshipping the true God amidst pagan contexts—show “the preservation of true worship.”
• Axial Age: Rise in literacy, focus on texts, philosophical refinement (in both paganism and Judaism)—Second Temple Judaism emerges ([15:22–16:46]).
• Judaism as Paradigm: Judaism preserves the “one God” line, but with significant shifts. Christianity grows out of Second Temple Judaism, not from outside.

4. Discontinuity Within Continuity: On the Evolution of Worship and Structure

• Textual Examples:
  • Genesis 4:26: Shift from “relationship” to “religion”—people begin “calling upon the name of Yahweh” ([22:01+]), not just individually, but in communities and various places.
  • The move from nomadic, familial worship to multiple groups, some falling away into idolatry.
• City Life as Danger: Settling in cities is seen as spiritually dangerous, though not automatically corrupting (Melchizedek is a saintly king).
• Second Temple Developments:
  • After the Babylonian exile, focus on synagogue, Torah, public reading, copying, and a burst of Jewish literature—setting the stage for Christianity ([33:11–35:01]).

5. The Question of “Primary” vs. “Secondary” Scripture

• The concept that within the canon there are “primary” and “secondary” scriptures, e.g., the Torah’s centrality in Judaism, the Gospels in Christianity ([53:31–54:41]).
• Even New Testament epistles are “interpreting and applying” the Gospels; liturgical practice reflects this hierarchy.

Notable Quote:

“Within the Scriptures there are these relationships... St. Peter already calls St. Paul’s writings scripture while [Paul] is still alive, writing them. So how does that work?”
— Fr. Andrew ([58:44])

6. Paradigms of Continuity: Authority, Worship, Calendar

• The criteria that define religious continuity across generations:
  • Formative Scriptures: E.g., the Torah ➔ the Hebrew Scriptures ➔ the Gospels/Epistles ([62:00+]).
  • Forms of Worship: While external forms (sacrifice, etc.) change, core elements (prayer, gathering, liturgy) remain.
  • Authority Structures: Bishops, presbyters/elders, etc. directly carry over from Jewish and early Christian practice ([69:42–70:46]).
  • Calendar/Ritual Life: Feasts and cycles develop by organic growth, not rupture.
• Differences between “organic development” and “artificial combination” (as found in Gnostic or Neoplatonic syncretism).

7. Historical Case Studies: Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, Arianism

• Gnosticism & Neoplatonism: Represent “artificial” blends of Christian elements into basically non-Christian religions. Lacked organic history, authority, continuity ([124:46–136:21]).
• Arianism: Distorted Christology, but maintained overall authority structures and worship. Thus, a false Christianity rather than a different religion ([137:00–140:21]).

Notable Quote:

“Arianism is not a different religion... but a false or heretical Christianity.”
— Fr. Andrew ([140:03])

8. Salvation Beyond the Perfectly Orthodox

• Salvation is not denied to those in heretical bodies, but their path is harder and the tradition less complete ([144:06+]).
• Example: St. Isaac the Syrian—a “saint within a heretical body” (Nestorian Church).
• God’s grace is not “automatically nullified” by circumstances of time or place—salvation is possible wherever faithfulness responds to God’s revelation (Romans 1, Acts 17) ([147:00–152:20]).
• Heresy is still a problem—“limits what you’re able to do”—but it does not put God in a box.

Notable Quote:

"If you do something good, it is good. Every good act is faithfulness to God and faithfulness to God is cooperating with divine grace."
— Fr. Stephen ([149:07])

9. Orthodox Attitude Toward Change

• Change in outward form is not the same as discontinuity; neither is variation heresy.
• But throwing out the formative body of scriptures is—e.g., Marcionites ([61:37, 61:50]).
• Change is legitimate when organic and rooted in the community’s life and tradition.

Q&A: Caller Highlights

1. Scripture and Tradition: Sola Scriptura vs. Orthodox Authority ([85:00–98:19])

• Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen discuss why a “text cannot exercise authority”; interpretation happens in community. The debate over “infallibility/inerrancy” is imported from Protestant categories and doesn’t always make sense.
• Notable: “There is no brute Bible...It's all been interpreted...The core issue is not Sola Scriptura; the core issue is ecclesiology.” — Fr. Andrew ([93:54])

2. Folk Customs: Animal “Sacrifice” in Some Orthodox Cultures ([99:44–107:04])

• A caller asks about Balkan folk customs resembling animal sacrifice. The priests explain this is “not traditional animal sacrifice”—likely a Muslim influence—and forbidden by canons. Suggestion: Bless livestock, eat together, but don't bring animals in church.

3. National Spirits? CS Lewis, Arthurian England, and Collective Souls ([108:29–114:46])

• Question on “Logres”—the spiritual England in Lewis’ That Hideous Strength; answer: It represents "England as it should be", an eschatological ideal—not a literal angel or demon.

4. Translation Questions in Liturgical Texts ([172:23–181:48])

• Caller asks about English translations of “wicked” vs. “ungodly” in Psalm 1. Guidance: Use multiple translations; don't absolutize one English word—meanings overlap and context in tradition matters.

5. The Harrowing of Hades ([182:59–191:16])

• Caller stumps local Roman Catholic catechists with the question of what Christ did in the grave. The priests point to biblical (esp. 1 Peter 3:19, Psalm 24) and patristic support for the doctrine and explain Orthodox and Catholic positions are similar.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Fr. Andrew:

• “I do this from the church. She’s not even here. I don’t think she even listens half the time. She's done with me. Like, I’ve heard you talk all day. I don’t need any more of this.” ([32:32])
• “Press buttons or walk out. Maybe some of both.” ([02:54])

Fr. Stephen:

• “Before you said 'who’s next?' I was going to introduce myself as Abe Froman.” — referencing a Chicago sausage king and Ferris Bueller callback ([192:12])
• “If you have a false idea of who someone is, then you’re going to relate to them in a way that is distorted.” ([143:21])

100th Episode Banter:

• “We could have a surprise last episode.” “Most of us are not as frankly mean as you are.” ([81:23–81:48])
• “If you want to learn some weird secrets and they’re all true about the life of the Very Reverend Dr. Heptomaster...” — on Fr. Andrew’s bio ([121:59–122:18])

Important Timestamps

• 00:22–01:06 – Show intro, premise, “the union of seen and unseen as made by God...”
• 04:41–10:04 – What does “unchanging” mean for Orthodox Christianity?
• 22:01–28:00 – Genesis, “began to call upon the name of Yahweh,” the invention of religion
• 31:41 – City-dwellers, Melchizedek, and the perils of civilization
• 35:01–37:05 – Axial Age and Second Temple Judaism
• 53:31–58:43 – Primary/secondary scripture, liturgical implications
• 69:42–71:07 – Worship and authority structures, ecclesia (“church”) in both Old and New Testaments
• 98:54–104:58 – Infallibility/inerrancy and the nature of biblical authority
• 124:41–140:21 – Analyzing Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, and Arianism against the Orthodox paradigm
• 147:00–154:00 – Church boundaries, salvation, and St. Isaac of Nineveh
• 169:19–172:07 – St. Paul’s “trance” in Acts 22 explained
• 182:59–191:16 – The Harrowing of Hell: biblical and patristic evidence

Final Thoughts & Reflections

Fr. Stephen’s Parting Reflection ([214:12–219:59]):

• Warns against “high info” Christians becoming gatekeepers obsessed with every detail; reminds listeners that being “traditional” is about living in obedience within community—not about being the most correct on every doctrine.
• “Those of us who are high info...often think that we are qualified to make the determinations about what constitute acceptable variation...But most of us are not qualified.”

Fr. Andrew’s Closing Appeal ([222:40–229:52]):

• Describes the modern maze of anxious religious searching—contrasting it with an older sense of being received into a tradition and shaped by it, rather than picking and choosing.
• “This will be a place where you can learn and you could be shaped and you could be formed and you could be transformed and you could be healed and you can be helped.”

Looking Ahead

• Part 3—promised for next episode—will discuss the paradigm of continuity/discontinuity as it applies to modernism and the current religious landscape.
• Announcement: a Lord of Spirits Conference is coming in 2025 (dates/location TBA) ([212:47–213:30]).
• Fr. Andrew’s new book, St. Paul the Pharisee, to be released soon.

Closing Words

Fr. Andrew:
“Christianity is a way of being that I can come into and be shaped and formed by. These are all passive words… While I work on all of these other things, these other responsibilities that life presents to me.” ([230:59])

Revelation 5:11–12 closes the episode.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In:

This episode is a masterclass in how Orthodox Christianity sees itself as organically continuous with the ancient worship of the one God, even as outward forms change. It’s full of history, spirited banter, accessible theology, practical wisdom, and memorable moments—with space for humor, pop culture, and listener engagement. Whether or not you’ve journeyed through the previous 99 episodes, you’ll find an entry point to deep questions about faith, tradition, and what it means to be “unchanging” in a changing world.