Pantheon and Pandemonium XX: Live Q&A March 2026

Summary

The Lord of Spirits Podcast

Episode: Pantheon and Pandemonium XX: Live Q&A March 2026
Date: March 17, 2026
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young (Ancient Faith Ministries)
Main Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition — Live Q&A

---

Brief Overview

This live Q&A episode (the 135th Lord of Spirits show) invites listeners to call in with any questions related to the Orthodox Christian understanding of the spiritual, the seen and unseen creation, mystical theology, scriptural interpretation, and living an enchanted Christian life. The episode features an eclectic mix of serious theological exploration, humor, pop culture references, scriptural exegesis, and practical pastoral insight, with both priests alternating between in-depth spiritual answers and playful banter.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Patterns in Biblical Prophecy and Dispensationalism

• Caller (Andrew, AZ) asks about reading biblical prophecy (esp. Zechariah 14) in light of current events — how to avoid dispensationalist misreadings that see modern Israel as direct prophecy fulfillment.
• Fr. Stephen: Warns against “pattern matching” — reading headlines into biblical prophecy and assuming timelines and locations in Scripture equate directly to contemporary places or events ([08:00–10:06]).
  • Quote: “The biggest problem is pattern matching...the human mind wants to make connections between things...but it’s a completely wrongheaded way of interpreting the Scriptures.”
    — Fr. Stephen DeYoung ([08:00])
• Fr. Andrew: Dispensationalism fails to see Christ's first coming as fulfillment of much prophecy; calls to recognize the Messianic age and “day of the Lord” motifs as already inaugurated through Jesus’ incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection ([10:06–13:20]).
  • Quote: “They’re reading [OT prophecies] as if none of them refer to Christ’s actual birth and resurrection, as if all were solely for His second coming.” — Fr. Andrew Damick ([10:06])
• Both stress that many notes in Study Bibles are not divinely inspired and can reflect varying opinions ([14:25–15:15]).

---

2. Saints’ Lives, Demons, and the Nature of Hagiography

• Caller (Paul, TX): Asks about saints’ stories involving trapping demons in objects, referencing St. Conon (Isauria) and the overlap with ancient understandings of idolatry ([17:34–21:23]).
• Fr. Stephen: Explains that such stories are about the saint’s encounter—God allows such experiences for particular purposes, not because demons are spatially constrained. We shouldn’t try to “look behind the story,” but accept the encounter as it’s given ([18:38–20:08]).
• Fr. Andrew: Suggests the motif is parallel to Christ sending demons into pigs—demons being contained, defeated, and symbolically bound back under the earth (Sheol), representing their loss of power ([20:31]).
  • Quote: “Think of it as parallel to Christ sending demons into the pigs. The demons…get imprisoned under the earth, symbolically back into Sheol where they can no longer work mischief.” — Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick ([20:31])
• On whether AI can be demonically possessed: Both clarify that demonic activity always requires human cooperation and God’s allowance ([22:07–24:04]).

---

3. Messiah, Pre-Christian Jewish Views, and New Testament Fulfillment

• Caller (Rory, NM): Was it common before Christ for Jews to see the Messiah as also divine — as “Yahweh come down”? ([25:47–29:54])
• Fr. Stephen: There was variety; in 1 Enoch and other texts, the “Son of Man” is both divine and Messiah. Some traditions (Melchizedek, Enoch) reflect this overlap, while certain groups held more political views of Messiah ([27:06–29:13]).
• Fr. Andrew: Sadducees and Hasmoneans had “this-worldly” views, accounting for the diversity reflected in both Second Temple and modern Jewish expectation ([29:13–29:54]).

---

4. Video Game and Pop Culture Fun

• Multiple callers brought up pop-culture and video games:
  • Assassin’s Creed (fighting the Pope vs. exploring Hagia Sophia) ([30:03–31:21])
  • Warhammer 40K factions ([24:21–24:48])
  • Gandalf’s (Olorin’s) spiritual development in Tolkien ([32:01–33:19])
  • Moon Knight’s Jewish-Egyptian backstory ([32:39–33:42])
• The hosts play along, using humor as a bridge to spiritual or anthropological points.

---

5. John the Baptist’s Baptism

• Caller (Sarah, IA): What was the point of John’s baptism if Jesus’ followers are re-baptized later ([33:48–37:32])?
• Both priests: John’s baptism = ritual repentance, preparation for the coming Messiah and the “holy remnant.” After Christ’s resurrection, Christian baptism includes both water and Holy Spirit; those who had received John’s baptism were generally “chrismated” (hands laid on them), not rebaptized ([34:42–37:32]).
  • Quote: “By this, he is creating a very literal instantiation of the holy remnant… Then the Gentiles fill up the other tribes.” — Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick ([36:18])

---

6. Spiritual Reality & Multiverse/Alternate Universe Fiction

• Caller (Jim, FL): Can Christians gain anything from alternate universe or “mirror universe” fiction, or does it promote a kind of dualism? ([45:16–49:51])
• Fr. Stephen: Such stories “fracture” the narrative and bypass the eschatological drama—the redemption in this world, not an alternate better one. If not united, these stories may subvert the need for redemption ([46:28–49:51]).
• Fr. Andrew: Highlights the positive—these stories can mirror Orthodox anthropology: every person has radical freedom (not fully determined by environment/heredity), e.g., “elseworld” Superman/Spock who ultimately act according to their deepest created purpose ([49:55–53:15]).

---

7. Ritual, Liturgical Actions, and Bodily Limitations

• Caller (David, PA): If someone cannot use their right hand for the sign of the cross, what is the Orthodox view? ([54:16–56:58])
• Both priests: The right hand is customary/symbolic, but the intention and faith matter most; accommodations (even using the eyes to trace the cross) are acceptable ([56:12–56:59]).

---

8. Authority and Responsibility in the Church

• Caller (David, Montreal): How does delegated responsibility work spiritually? Is the catechist accountable or only the bishop/priest who authorizes them? ([92:09–98:16])
• Both priests: Responsibility overlaps in a “web of relationships”—delegated tasks carry their own accountability, and higher authorities are also responsible for how and to whom they delegate ([95:48–98:16]).
  • Quote: “It’s whatever has been put in your hands, you’re responsible for that. To whom much is given, much will be required.” — Fr. Stephen DeYoung ([95:48])

---

9. Kingship: Biblical, Medieval, and Tolkien

• Caller (David, Montreal): Can Tolkien’s Aragorn-type kingship teach us about Christian kingship? ([99:00–104:09])
• Fr. Andrew: Aragorn’s model combines ancient (divine right, semi-divine leadership) and medieval Christian elements (self-sacrifice, healing, distributing wealth). It’s rich for reflection, but “kingship” in Tolkien is closer to the classical model—an exemplar from among the people—than to the later medieval or imperial model ([100:25–104:09]).

---

10. Forever, Eternity, and the Davidic Covenant

• Caller (Daniel, IN): God’s promise to David (throne “forever”) appears broken in history; how do we reconcile this with Exile and Christ? ([119:37–132:43])
• Fr. Stephen: The Hebrew term translated “forever” (olam) more often means “eternally” (relation to heavenly, not linear unbroken sequence). The Davidic dynasty was an earthly sign; the eternal fulfillment comes in Christ ([123:15–124:26]).
• Fr. Andrew: Chronicles (written after the exile) interprets the promise as ultimately about the Messiah enthroned with God; sacrificial and kingly “patterns” were fulfilled despite historical disruption ([125:09–131:34]).
• Both clarify the layered, symbolic sense of biblical prophecy and fulfillment.

---

11. Canonization, Saintly Failings, and the Church

• Caller (Martin, WA): Can the “failings” or “delusions” (prelest) of saints invalidate a church, or are they apologetic “system defeaters”? ([135:55–145:57])
• Fr. Stephen: Moral or spiritual failures do not “invalidate” a church or its saints, any more than David’s failings negate his kingship. It’s not adequate to use such cases as apologetic “gotchas” ([137:12–139:15]).
• Fr. Andrew: The Orthodox Church recognizes that saints are also sinners—canonization of problematic figures is an argument against a tradition only if those actions or teachings are uncorrected and institutionalized ([140:36–144:38]).
  • Quote: “Pointing to moral failings of saints, as if saints weren’t also sinners, is kind of ironic from a Protestant.” — Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick ([145:21])

---

12. “Forever” Tribes, Lost Tribes, and Inclusion

• Caller (Avery, MN): How could Anna be called “of the tribe of Asher” in Luke if the ten tribes were destroyed? ([155:29–160:53])
• Fr. Stephen: Destruction doesn’t mean eradication; over generations, remnants persisted.
• Fr. Andrew: In post-exilic Judaism, some Gentile groups were adopted (e.g., as “Issachar”); concept of Gentile inclusion already present ([158:06–160:50]).

---

13. Eternity, Time, and the Communion of Saints

• Caller (Jordan, VA): If we are “seated in heavenly places” already (Ephesians), why don’t we pray to ourselves? How does Christ’s eternity and time interact? ([161:08–170:18])
• Both priests: We don’t pray to ourselves—there is mystical participation, but not an alternate present “you.” Eternity and time meet in liturgy via Christ’s incarnation, but our language and categories can only approximate the reality ([164:09–169:41]).
  • Quote: “Certain things are a mystery and you can’t dispel that mystery and understand it; you just have to point at it.” — Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick ([170:05])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The modern world doesn’t acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits and angels, demons and saints.” — Fr. Andrew ([00:15])
• “Christ in the incarnation is the fulfillment of a lot of those prophecies…If you read the OT carefully…there’s a pattern: there’s a Day of the Lord when Israel is judged first, then the Messiah comes. That begins the Messianic age; after a time, the end comes.” — Fr. Andrew ([10:06])
• “Just because you see Jerusalem mentioned in a particular passage…and it seems like that’s happening now—they’re not necessarily connected.” — Fr. Stephen ([13:20])
• “If demons could possess technology at will, we’d have had nuclear war by now.” — Fr. Andrew ([23:26])
• “What makes Christian prayer different from pagan prayer is the understanding that God is completely free and is in no way manipulated by the particular words or actions that you take.” — Fr. Stephen ([112:56])
• “You shouldn’t pray to yourself…It still just one person, not ‘me’ and a ‘not-me’.” — Fr. Stephen ([164:07])
• “It’s just a negation and inversion of the good thing…To bring life is to bring out what is good, beautiful, pure and bring it to fruition. Gossip does the opposite.” — Fr. Andrew ([84:17])
• “If you buy our program, do our technique…it completely flipped my marriage, my health…People want a skeleton key. That’s what personality tests often offer.” — Fr. Andrew ([63:57])
• “Christ makes what the Levites were doing eternal.” — Fr. Andrew ([131:57])
• “Widespread prelest—when you’re comparing Rome and the Orthodox Church and one of them has widespread prelest, that is relevant.” — Fr. Andrew ([144:18])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [08:00] — Dispensationalism and misreading prophecy
• [10:06] — Eschatology: Preterism, fulfillment in Christ, Day of the Lord
• [17:34] — Saints “trapping” demons, hagiographical interpretation
• [22:07] — AI and demonic activity
• [25:47] — Messiah as Divine: pre-Christian Jewish views
• [33:48] — The purpose of John the Baptist’s baptism
• [45:16] — Multiverse fiction and Orthodox cosmology
• [54:16] — Liturgy, sign of the cross, and physical limitations
• [92:09] — Church authority, delegation, and accountability
• [99:00] — Aragorn and Christian Kingship (Tolkien & the Bible)
• [119:37] — David’s throne “forever” — historical fulfillment and meaning
• [135:55] — Delusions, failings of saints as apologetic arguments
• [155:29] — Lost tribes, Anna of Asher, post-exilic tribe continuity
• [161:08] — Eternity, praying to “yourself,” liturgy and the heavenly realm

---

Tone and Language

The episode is a vibrant dialogue fueled by real theological curiosity, warmth, dry humor, and approachable pastoral wisdom. Lists are peppered with nerd culture, in-jokes (“the poor man’s Ohio,” “dragon slayers and giant killers,” “pajama party at Ancient Faith HQ”), and callers join the fun as regulars and novices alike.

---

Takeaways

• Orthodox Christian tradition sees the unseen world as fully present and interwoven with the visible world, and is wary of reductionist patterns that flatten prophecy, spiritual experience, or human identity.
• Saints’ lives and scriptural typology should not be read with modern literalism but with ontological and symbolic awareness.
• The trajectory from prophecy to Christ is fulfilled in ways often more mysterious and cosmic than surface-level political readings allow.
• Authority, repentance, and personhood are always relational and “absolute,” never simply institutional or mechanical.
• Pop culture and fiction can provide insight into Orthodox anthropology and eschatology when read carefully and in context.
• The best “skeleton key” is faithfulness, repentance, and the slow, transformative encounter with Christ—rather than instant diagnostic or predictive tools.

---

For listeners and readers:
If you haven’t heard this episode, expect a rich, joyful, and thoughtful journey through the full breadth of Orthodox Christian theology—always rooted in humility, tradition, humor, and a love for people and God.

Transcript

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He will be a staff for the righteous with which for them to stand

[Caller]

and not to fall.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And he will be the light of the nations and the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All who dwell on the earth will fall down and worship him.

[Caller]

And they will praise and bless and

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits. The modern world doesn't acknowledge, but is nevertheless haunted by spirits and angels, demons and saints. In our time, many yearn to break free of the prison of a flat secular materialism, to see and to know reality as it truly is. What is this spiritual reality like? How do we engage with it? Well, how do we permeate everyday life with spiritual presence? Orthodox Christian priests Father Andrew Stephen Damick and Fr. Stephen DeYoung host this live call in show focused on enchantment in creation. This the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. Welcome to the Lord of Spirits.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hey. Greetings, dragon slayers and giant killers. You're listening to the 135th episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damick and with me is the stupefying sultan of the swamp men himself, Father Stephen DeYoung. We're coming to you live, forming a veritable Bermuda Triangle between Emmaus, Pennsylvania, Lafayette, Louisiana and Ancient Faith Radio's home base of Chesterton, Indiana. It's been months since we did an all live, all call in show, so this is your chance, boys and girls. Call us at 855-237-2346 and you can talk to us about whatever is on Father Steven's mind. So. But while those phone lines are filling up, Father, I thought we'd check in with you and see what your spicy takes on current events are. So who do you think is going to come home with one of those Oscars this coming Sunday night? Will it be a clean sweep of K pop demon hunters?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's a downer.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. No. Sinners. Sinners is even going to take best original song.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Really?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You want to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Your demon hunters are going to no place.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I was about to suggest placing a little wager, but then I was like, I can't do that. I can't do that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not live on air, at least.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I was raised differently from you, Father Steven. I don't. I don't smoke, drink and gamble and all that kind of stuff. The way you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There you go. Got that. Works righteousness.

[Caller]

That's right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Works righteousness.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You didn't inform people that the inmates are running the asylum over there at Ancient Faith. This Evening. And so this is definitely the night to call. You could probably get away with murder. I know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sheer chaos over there at the poor man's Ohio. I know. Like, we don't know how many people are in the studio right now. Trudy is apparently having some kind of, like, gathering some sort of big party or whatever with all his friends. Sleepover. Exactly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

They're going to be singing into their hairbrushes anytime now and doing choreography.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's a good thing this isn't on video on YouTube. Think about what you guys are missing. There's a pajama party happening over in ancient faith radio headquarters right at this very moment. So. All right, well, since this is all callers, let's. Let's get to it. So first we have Andrew calling from Arizona. Andrew, welcome to Laura Spirits Podcast. Congratulations on having such an excellent name.

[Caller]

Hello, good evening. Can you hear me?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Good evening. We do hear you.

[Caller]

Awesome. You know, first of all, I want to say I feel honored because I got about 10 minutes of. I got to be a part of the back scenes there. I don't know if that usually happens. There may have been a hot mic button pressed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, you heard everything going on at the pajama party, huh?

[Caller]

I did. I did. I will say that tank was behaving admirably. You know, hot mics and the fire department usually go a lot worse than that. Anyways, first of all, Father Andrew by. Hello from Deacon Steve in Twin Falls.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hello.

[Caller]

Hello, if you remember, can you hear me?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes, we do hear you.

[Caller]

Oh, oh, yes, That's. Anyway, Deacon Steve, my dad says hello from Twin Falls. And then I had a quick bone to take with Father Stephen, and this has been a little delayed. I've been trying to call, but I needed to straighten something out with you before we. Before I asked my question.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All right, here we go.

[Caller]

The pellet with the poison is in the flag with the dragon. The vessel with the pestle is the brew that is true. Just wanted to straighten that out.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Thank you very much.

[Caller]

Okay. All right. All right. We can agree on that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Caller]

My question, and you mentioned current events.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Danny K. Of it all. I have a question then, before we start.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, you're on the spot now, Andrew from Arizona.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You work at a fire department in Arizona?

[Caller]

Yes, yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That must be rough, man.

[Caller]

Bad as you think because you've got

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

a lot of heat.

[Caller]

No water sometimes. Yeah, well, we have some water.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, I was just in Arizona this last weekend, and you do not have any water, like, out here where I live, and especially where Father Steven Lives. They put it for free in the air. Anyone can just have it. But you guys do not have it. I was there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, they sell it all to California.

[Caller]

That's true, that's true. That is the list of one thing bad with California. But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I mean we could go on. Let's make a list. What is your question, Andrew?

[Caller]

So my question was. So I'm recent still working through my Protestant dispensationalism in the process of reframing my mind and with.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, this is a tough moment in terms of current events to be a dispensationalist. They're all just so excited right now about everything they're seeing on the news.

[Caller]

Well, right, right, right, right. And that's where so I, I have, we have wonderful conversations with my, with my Protestant friends. Quick, shout out to John Luke. Love you guys. But in regards to everything going on, one of the passages we keep going back to and this is in reference to, I, I've listened to your part series on Israel three times. Like all three episodes. I've been through it three times. And your, your, your father Andrew, your one comment that, that the nation state of Israel has as much biblical significance as the state of, of Finland, I think you said.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Seems like

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

he likes to insult the Finns with their irrelevance.

[Caller]

You know, they're such nice people though. But so in specifically going through into Zachariah 14 when it's talking about the day of the Lord, how do we, how do we kind of navigate and not the Zachary but the other some of the prophets where it seems like there's, it seems like there's a kind of an importance to Jerusalem and Israel being in that place and those events happening. You know, I'm sorry, I kind of lost my question. I apologize. But basically like, you know, when you read about the, about Israel and Jerusalem and these end time events, how do we overlay current events and not see kind of that dispensationalist angle or, or the Protestant angle?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, I mean the one thing I'll say is the, the, the big, the. There's so many wonderful things that we could say about the problems of dispensationalism, but one thing I'll say is that the, the biggest problem is, is pattern matching. Like again, if there's anything going on in the news with regards to conflict in the Middle east, dispensationalists go crazy. They're all convinced that, you know, something is about to happen. Right. This is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy, et cetera, et cetera et cetera, because they're seeing names of places that they are seeing referenced in the Bible. But the problem is that there's been in most case thousands of years of history between that point and now. And why is it that all the other exciting events that happened in those times were not the fulfillment of biblical prophecy? The way the stuff happening at this moment is like, why do we think that we are the people who are witnessing all of this? Right. So it kind of fails on its own terms. Say nothing about the fact that this is a completely wrong way to interpret the Bible. Right. It's, you know, the human mind, of course, wants to make connections between things. We see this, we see this. Oh, those are, those are similar or those, that's the same name as this or whatever it might be. My favorite version of this is where people look at whatever the Bible verse is. Oh, it's chapter this, verse this, and look at the number we just saw on the news. Never mind the fact that the chapters and verses of the Bible are what, just a few hundred, several hundred years old at best and have nothing to do with the way that they're originally being written or compiled or edited or whatever. It's just so much of a stretch in most cases to make all of these connections. But also it's a completely wrong headed way of interpreting the Scriptures. And I'll, I'll just, I mean, I'll just tell everybody they should definitely listen to those three episodes we talked about with regards to Israel. But I don't know. Do you have something specific to say about this particular passage, Father Stephen? Well,

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

this is a more general point, but so in, in Protestant land you have, on the one hand you have preterists who have this sort of over realized eschatology and dispensationalists really have an under realized eschatology. Right. Because essentially their eschatology is acting like the Messiah hasn't come yet. Yeah, that's the way they're reading these Old Testament passages. As if none of them refer to Christ's actual, like birth and incarnation and life and death and resurrection. All of those Old Testament prophecies were solely aimed at his second coming. You can see the obvious problem there, right. Like from a Christian perspective. So we have to take seriously, for example, that a lot of the signs of the day of the Lord are described as happening at the time Christ was crucified in the Gospel accounts. Right. That the pattern is there's a day of the Lord when Israel is judged first, then the Messiah comes. That begins the Messianic age. And then after a time, the end comes. That's what you get from the Old Testament. So a lot of the day of the Lord stuff was fulfilled at Christ's quote, unquote, first coming. Right. Because he didn't go away. That's why I say we put scare quotes around coming. So, yeah, I think that's the issue. And Judea was there, Jerusalem was there, the Temple was there. The religious leadership was corrupt and was judged. Right. The. This is all of the parables, the parable of the wicked tenants, all these parables that talk about the kingdom being taken away from Israel and given to another people who would bear the fruits thereof.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That Christ says over and over again, like that happened then. Christ wasn't predicting that the kingdom was going to be taken away from Israel 2,000 years later and given to another people at that time. Right. Obviously, even a dispensationalist would have to say, well, yeah, I mean, that was the time of the Gentile Church. Right. So it's a failure to realize that Christ in the Incarnation, right, that is the fulfillment of a lot of those prophecies, and that then there are other prophecies related to the end, related to the bodily resurrection, the final judgment. But if you read the Old Testament carefully, like in Daniel, when he predicts this in terms of the coming of the Son of Man, he says, and then after a time, the judgment happens and there's the river of fire and the thrones are set, but that's after a time. There's some period of time between the Son of Man being enthroned at the right hand of the ancient of days and the end.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, Andrew, just be. Just because you see Jerusalem mentioned in a particular passage in the Old Testament and something is happening to it or is said to be happening to it, and it seems like that's happening now. They're not necessarily connected.

[Caller]

And.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And we should remember too, by the way, that the center of modern Israeli life is not Jerusalem, it's Tel Aviv. That's the capital of the country, you know.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, it was until recently.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where the government and so forth. That's where you know, most of the missiles and stuff are being aimed. You know, we should be praying for peace. Yeah. Not weirdly cheering from the sidelines that one side or another successfully shooting the other, plus Christ.

[Caller]

The only reason, the only reason I asked about that Zachariah passage was because the Cliff Notes on the. The Orthodox study Bible said this was in her I believe he said this is to be accomplished at the second coming of Christ. So. My, my.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, let us just.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I don't know if you know this, but those notes are not divinely inspired.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. All of the notes in the Orthodox study Bible are not necessarily ones that we would put a check mark of approval next to.

[Caller]

Well, that's confusing, isn't it? Okay, all right. Well, yes. And the trend continues then.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. It's okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's all right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's all right. It's all right. Thank you very much.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know who can help us?

[Caller]

Would you guys get. I need you guys to get on the same page then, please. Whoever's writing this, you guys.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, I mean, those notes are now decades old.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And. And, you know, published by a different publisher, so. Yeah. Hey, you know, a lot of things can be revised.

[Caller]

Sure.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So, you know who.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Let's pray for that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know who could get us through these terrible times, though?

[Caller]

Danny K. Danny K. Danny K. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Thank you for calling, Andrew. Okay, well, we've got another call. We've got a caller from the DFW area. We have Paul in Texas.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So, Paul, welcome to Laura Spears podcast Metroplex.

[Caller]

Yes, hello. Hello, Fathers, greetings. So first I want to begin because this is long overdue. Six months to maybe almost a year ago. One of the. One of the more recent. Ish. Q and A's, Father Andrew. I have no idea why I was being, I thought, playful, but for whatever reason, the words that left my mouth sounded catty towards you, and I imagine you don't remember that, but regardless, I don't remember. Apologize. Okay, let me go back and listen. It makes me cringe.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Don't apologize to him. It's not good for his salvation.

[Caller]

I have no idea how or why that happened. And I even did a double take to myself alone in a room when I did it, wondering why. But I thought maybe I imagined it until I listened back. And no, I definitely sound like I'm having attitude for no reason at all.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, it's probably my malign influence. I just create an environment when people feel like they could pick on Father Andrew.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's right.

[Caller]

They're just joining up with you and technology failing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yep, yep.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's because you're a dwarf.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What else is on your mind, Paul?

[Caller]

Okay, so, yeah, the question I have. Well, of course, as a tradition for the show and for myself, I've got kind of an opening question to make sure I understood you all correctly. And then my actual One. So back in the day, if I remember correctly, this was back when the show was still pretty young, when we were discussing idols and how idolatry actually works and how it's like pretty much a legitimate far cry from icon veneration on more than one level. I thought I remembered y' all saying that, you know, you're, you're, you're outlining the beliefs of the ancient people, not necessarily what we say actually happened in regards to the demons, you know, being quote unquote, like Pokemon trapped inside of the idols and whatnot, so that the people can try and manipulate them to get what they want.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, that was their understanding of how it all worked.

[Caller]

Okay, so there. So I did remember that correctly. Good. What I wanted to ask is in regards to the Synaxarion reading on March 5, Holy martyr Conon of Isauria. Forgive me if I butchered that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, Conon the gardener.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So Conan the Isaurian sounds so much more robust.

[Caller]

There's two Conans on that day. I don't remember if it's the gardener or if it's the other one.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Actually, you have me there.

[Caller]

I don't know which is related to. It talks about basically him. I think he was being told to come offer before the idols and whatnot. And. But the story in the Synaxarion blatantly just refers to demons being hidden in the idols. And then after he banished several, he has them trapped in earthenware vessels under his home. And so I wanted to ask for clarification, as one does feel kind of like just as they believe or since then, the Synaxarion, is that kind of like a force, or is that not the relationship we have?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There are a lot of saints, so there are a lot of saints lives. That includes stories of saints trapping demons inside things, believe it or not. And by that we should not come away with a sense of, wow, demons take up this amount of, you know, 3D space. Yeah, it's.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's that how many can you trap in a single earthenware jar or could

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

dance on the head of a pin? You know, it's really that this is. This is the experience that the humans are having. And it may well be that God permits them to have this particular experience because this is the way that he wants them to interact with this scenario, you know, whatever it might be. I mean, like, there's a story, I think it's of St. John of Novgorod maybe, who keeps getting irritated by a demon. And so he turns around and tells the demon to transform into a winged horse and take him on kind of a day trip pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which he does. And like. Well, what I mean. And that's how it's depicted in icons. This sort of creepy kind of lizardy winged horse thing with a forked tail and claws, you know, taking him flying. Flying this bishop down to Jerusalem. Metal. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty cool. It's a pretty cool scene, actually. You know, so. But these are the stories as we have them. And I think that any attempt to kind of try to look behind the story is to sort of miss the point of the story, if that makes any sense.

[Caller]

Okay, well, I mean, I definitely. If we're trying to almost make a secular understanding, I agree. I definitely was not trying to go that far. I may have accidentally been doing so I just wanted to see if there was any clarity on like, we do believe this is like, what happens, like straightforwardly or if there's more allegory to it. But.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, I think.

[Caller]

I guess so.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think the purpose it's getting at is it's sort of parallel to Christ sending the demons into the pigs, right? So the demons are in the idol and they're sort of working through the idol in the temple to work mischief with the pagans, right. And manipulate them and do evil. And so they get imprisoned under the earth, right? Under his house, sort of symbolically back into Sheol where they can't. Where they can no longer work mischief. They kind of get bound by the. By the saint.

[Caller]

Right, okay. So this would still relate to the idea of their body. It's just in this case, they're being forced into a body they don't want, right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And essentially where they can't. They can no longer do any harm. Yeah, right. And they're. They're back under the ground where they're supposed to be.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Well, Zach, if I. If I remember correctly, the. The main point I was headed, aside from clarification, is if I remember correctly, you guys were talking about AI at some point, and Father Stephen made a joke about how Father Andrew is scared of it, but he. Father Steven's not convinced it can ever turn into some kind of demonic. Awful thing. My. What. What extent of, you know, let's say conspiracy, like lizard men running the earth Brain I've got came down to wondering if, is it possible when AI reaches a certain level of sophistication for demons to possess robotics through that? And that's where my kind of like sci fi dramatic brain went. And is.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I remember, I remember years ago, years ago when I was still a stagehand I was present at a lecture. I was helping to run lights or something for it. A lecture by the late Marshall Brain. And yes, that was his real name. He's the guy who founded the howstuffworks.com website. And. And he. He was talking about how we need to get hold of sort of AI and robotic ethics. And this is how he put it before the robotic police force comes online. And so. Which is a very scary thing to say, of course, But, I mean, I don't know. Like, I. I think that, you know, demonic possession of objects or people or whatever comes through human involvement. So it's not like they can say, oh, we're just waiting for a really sophisticated robot, and then we'll. Then we'll jump on in, you know, and walk around in it like a mech. No, no. I mean, this is. This is. This is about humans. This is about humans doing things.

[Caller]

Well, fair. And I was also thinking about some of the. You know, of course there's all this crazy stuff, that Epstein stuff going on, but I've also heard some stuff about the AI developers basically owning up to actively trying to make a God and whatnot. And so I wouldn't imagine it's beyond them to invite one in, if that's possible.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. But you got to always remember, demons can only do what God allows them to do. You know, so as. As. As cool as, you know, movies are where they, like, possess puppets or, you know, dolls or whatever, like, if demons could just do what they wanted to and possess technology, I think we'd have had a nuclear war by now.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right?

[Caller]

Copy that. Yeah. Just to kill us.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. You see what I'm saying? So regardless of what technology gets invented, you know, a demon won't take control of it unless God decides to let one.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yep. Yep.

[Caller]

Which, of course, is reason not to be, you know, given to despair. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which will probably be. The final judgment is upon us.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

At that point, if he lets that happen, it's for our repentance or to stop evil or both, you know, so. Yeah.

[Caller]

Okay. Well, thank you very much. I do have one bonus question. I wish it was for both of you, Father Andrew, but I'm almost positive this is not your cup of tea, Father Stephen. I wanted to know what your favorite faction, or if it's relevant, sub faction, is in 40k.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So I am not big into 40k.

[Caller]

Tragic.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But my wife collects the Battle Sisters.

[Caller]

I mean, that's. That's absolutely fair. Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So.

[Caller]

Well, thank you very much, Fathers.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There we are. All right. Thank you Very much for calling, Paul. Okay, our next caller is from your home state, Father Stephen, and it's Rory. Rory, welcome to the Willard Spirits podcast.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

My home state of Rory.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Caller]

Okay, well. Well, after I changed Laverne back to Lordsburg and my beginning petition to change it to Lord of Spiritsburg, the next petition is to call the state Rory. Okay, I got one signature on that one.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Good luck. So what's on your mind, Rory?

[Caller]

So I have two questions, one serious and one less so, but not wrestling related, I promise. I have no questions about Bret Hart today. Although I would like to say that my views on dispensationalism were heavily influenced by the fact that Goldberg ended Red Heart's career.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that was ugly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Was that an eschatological moment for Canada?

[Caller]

For. Yeah, for Canada, yeah. Oh. So my first. My question is about kind of the views of the Messiah prior to, you know, prior to the incarnation that, you know, in Christianity was, you know, to kind of badly paraphrase you, is, was a recognition that, you know, Jesus was, you know, both the Messiah prophesied and also this, you know, second person of Yahweh. That's all throughout the Old Testament. However, I was wondering, were conceptions of the. I know there are different views of what the Messiah would be like, you know, and a lot of people were upset that Jesus wasn't a conquering king, you know, whatever. Was there a comment? Was it a common conception that the Messiah would be both, you know, for lack of a better term, the Messiah, and also God himself, you know, come down?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, so if I'm. If I understand correctly, what you're asking is how common or was it the case that anyone believed that the Messiah, that Yahweh would be the Messiah? Effectively, yes. Okay, so, all right. I think we went over that in our episode about the Messiah, Father. But now it's been so long, I do not remember.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, as you say, there were a variety of views on who the second person of Yahweh was. There was a variety of views about what the Messiah would be like, but there's a lot of places where they overlap. Probably the most prominent one is in the book of Similitudes in first Enoch that identifies the Son of man from Daniel as the Messiah, that the Son of Man is going to come down and be the Messiah. That's probably the most prominent one, but there are a lot of others. So you have in the Melchizedek scroll and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Melchizedek has it's identifying that second power in heaven as being Melchizedek, who has been. Either he's been dividized or that was Melchizedek was just him appearing on earth. Right. And him coming as the Messiah. There are certain texts that have Enoch returning as the Messiah. So there are various people who saw the second power as a divinized human that also saw him as being the Messiah. There are things like Book of Similitudes at first Enoch that have a second power in heaven. Not totally clear about his precise identity, but have him becoming the Messiah. So that overlap was there in. In a lot of the literature. Not 100%, but a lot of it was there. And that was among what today would be called religious Jews. Right. So the people who thought that the Messiah was going to be this conquering king, this. Like we're using the Hasmonean paradigm, right? The Hasmoneans in their brief glory days, like John Hyrcanus, that was their view of the Messiah would be.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That was people like the Hasmoneans themselves and the Sadducees, right. Who were descendants from that family and who, as you can imagine, with the Sadducees not believing in the resurrection, not accepting most of the Hebrew Bible as Bible, were far more this worldly oriented. Right. And so their view of the Messiah was also very much related to that. And that brings us full circle back to the modern nation state of Israel. But anyway.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Who doesn't seem to be waiting for a Messiah to come?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You said you had another question, Rory.

[Caller]

Yeah. So this one, there's Father Steven. So it's about Assassin's Creed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, break then.

[Caller]

With an orthodox twist. So from an orthodox perspective, which is the more orthodox Assassin's Creed entry? Is it Assassin's Creed 2 because you ended by fist fighting the Pope, or does Assassin Creed Revelations because you're in Constantinople and you get to take it to the Turks in your expertise?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Definitely. Revelation. Not just because you get to take it to the Turks, but you get to explore the Hagia Sophia.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

True.

[Caller]

And you get Vlad Dracula's armor, if I remember correctly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. And there's a brief appearance by the titular Byzantine emperor, who is completely corrupt.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That never happened historically. Come on.

[Caller]

But do we agree that Ezio's robes in Assassin's Creed Brotherhood were the most stylish?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Probably. I like the black robes, though. I like the black robes in Revelation, though, an awful lot.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There we go.

[Caller]

I'm biased because I dressed as Ezio for Halloween in 2014. My wife showed me a beautiful costume that was super accurate. And I wore it once and only took one bad picture of it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow. I've been committed to it for 12 years. That's amazing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Revelations gets a little extra edge for me, too, because being an old man, I now like old man action heroes.

[Caller]

Okay. Yeah. So would you. It gives you hope that you can be pulled from the back of the carriage.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, if necessary, yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So anyway. All right, well, thank you very much for calling Rory. Now we have Sarah calling from the great state of Iowa. Sarah, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Hello.

[Caller]

I have a couple questions, and in keeping with the last two, I'm going to ask a question specifically for Father Stephen. Sorry, Father Andrew.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's all right. I'm just going to take another break.

[Caller]

This question is for Father Stephen. The question is, when Niana teaches sympathy, pity, mourning to Olorin, what is that significance for his, you know, spiritual being? For instance, Saruman doesn't have this tutelage under Nienna, so why. Why does this matter for Olorin? How did it affect his. His journey as a character?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think this was for Father Andrew, not for me.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, no, no, it's for you.

[Caller]

It's for you. Good luck.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, here's what you have to understand. When Marc Spector first became Moon Knight, he was just a mercenary in Egypt. And it was kind of ironic that as a Jewish guy who had become a mercenary and was an atheist, he ends up serving an Egyptian God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You see the irony there? And his dad being a rabbi, having grown up celebrating Passover and hearing the stories of his people. Nevertheless, although he's had to be brought back from the dead several times, he continued to fight crime. And I think if you understand what's going on in Moon Knight psychology, it really answers your question.

[Caller]

Makes perfect sense to me. Also, how do you feel about them casting Oscar Isaac in a role playing Egyptian?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He's not playing an Egyptian. He's playing a Jewish guy.

[Caller]

Well, he's playing a Jewish guy. I guess that's not less weird, though.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But he's played Jewish guy several times now. He did play an Egyptian technically, in X Men Apocalypse, because Ed Sabanur is an Egyptian.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's right. That's right. Okay, and your other question.

[Caller]

My other what. What is going on with. What is John the Baptist baptism? What is. What is going on there? So obviously we think of baptism as the current circumcision, but the spiritual baptism given through Christ, what is John the Baptist's baptism? What is that doing for the people who receive that? Because then aren't they re Baptized as. Because you have those disciples who received through the baptism of John and they believe what they know, but then they're rebaptized as Christians later. So what was John the Baptist baptism for?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, Father, isn't it. I mean, isn't this essentially one of the mikvah? Maybe I'm getting the word wrong. You know, one of those washings of repentance that's in the Torah already. Right. It's not baptism into Christ.

[Caller]

It's.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's a. A baptism of repentance. I mean, that's how it's described in the Gospels. So it's one of these washings that you have to do?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, it's a. Yeah, it's a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. But what beyond that? Right. So he's calling on Israel to repent and to come and be washed and experience this baptism for the forgiveness of their sins. But he's telling them to repent because the kingdom of God is at hand. The ax is at the root of the tree. See, this ties back to the first question. This judgment is about to come upon the Jewish people. And so now is their chance to repent. And in doing that, he is preparing this repentant people. That's why he's doing it in the Jordan. So on the other side of the Jordan, you have this people that's being put together. And then when Christ comes, when the Messiah comes, Jesus comes. And he comes and leads these people, Jesus, who shares the same name as Joshua, who led the people across or through the Jordan to take the land of Canaan originally from the evil spiritual forces and their human underlings who held it, he comes and leads those people back into the land. And we see Several of the 12 disciples had been disciples of St. John previously, including my namesake. Right? And so he is, by this, he is creating a very literal instantiation of the holy remnant.

[Caller]

Oh, okay, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So that Christ can then come. And this is the new beginning for Israel. Right, Because Israel is restored with the holy remnant of Judah. And then the Gentiles come in to fill up the other tribes. So those who are being baptized, and this is why St. John makes the point that Christ didn't baptize anyone. His disciples did. So his disciples were continuing to baptize people with St. John's baptism throughout Christ's ministry.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And then the baptism that comes afterwards, after Matthew 28, the Great Commission in Christ's ascension, in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, that is baptism with water and the Holy Spirit that St. John was talking about would come.

[Caller]

Okay, so do all the people who are baptized under John have to get re baptized then? Like, obviously this is an irrelevant question. It's more of a hypothetical. But.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. Most of them, what we see, the general pattern in Acts is that they aren't rebaptized. They have hands laid on them and they receive the Holy Spirit.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So they don't get baptized again. They just get Chrismated.

[Caller]

So he's functioning as sort of an icon or maybe Joshua. They're functioning as icons of each other in a way. And then he also gets called Elijah. And I've never really understood that either. So that might be.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You should listen to our whole episode

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

about, I'd say John the four on the Baptist.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah. Because we talk about Elijah as his patron saint, the one who's animating his ministry.

[Caller]

I will go back and listen to it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And see, there's also a connection there between. Remember there's this transition from Elijah to Elisha.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And right after Elijah goes up into heaven and Elisha kind of receives the double portion of his gifts, what does he do? He goes and he hits the Jordan with Elijah's mantle of the Jordan parts and he walks.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yep, he walks through all kinds of fun stuff there. So. Yes. Well, thank you for your question about the pre Middle Earth life of Gandalf. I know that Father Stephen was pondering that a lot beforehand.

[Caller]

It's a very important question. And if you still had your Lord of the Rings podcast, I'd call in and ask there. But thank you guys so much.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You're welcome. Thanks for calling. Sarah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I have read the Silmarillion. I have not memorized the Silver Alien.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That puts you out in front of a lot of other Viking fans.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I have not memorized it, though.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, you caught some of the names.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I do not fie upon it fortnightly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So anyway, all right, we're going to go ahead and take our first break and we'll be back with the second half of this all Live, all Q and A episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment

[Caller]

to take your calls on the next

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

part of the Lord of Spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO. Ancient Near Eastern texts such as the BAAL Cycle portray the pagan God BAAL

[Caller]

as a rebel, the hero of a

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

revolution, worshiped and glorified for his long string of victories. In the Baal book, A Biography of the Devil, Fr. Stephen DeYoung shows that the Hebrew Scriptures consciously turn the Baal story on its head, depicting him as a failed and defeated rebel who nonetheless tries to steal the glory that belongs to Almighty God. From these scriptures, the figure of the Devil emerged within Jewish and Christian tradition. Father DeYoung works through the Old and New Testament passages that refer to various BAAL stories, and he surveys BAAL worship throughout followers, beliefs, religious practices and liturgical life. In these pages, we will see that the figures of BAAL and the Devil, the Prince of Demons, are one and the same. To find this book and others like it, you can go to store.ancientfaith.com again, that is store.ancient faith.com. we're back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick, and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Welcome back, everybody. I have to say, the. The most frequent question in the YouTube chat right now is, are you ready for this one? Is this live? The answer is yes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No. No, it's not no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's.

[Caller]

How do you know?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We predicted you would say that. We knew. Yes, we are live. You can call us if you get through. I mean, you know, TR is a little distracted with a big old pajama party over there right now, but also

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I could tell by when Father Andrew called for that break that he's trying to cut this one short. Guys. No, get his 90 nights. So you need to call in and keep this thing going.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Not at all. Not at all. So, all right, well, we have our next caller. We have Zach calling from Tennessee. Zach, welcome to Laura Spirits Podcast.

[Caller]

Hello. Thank you, fathers. Happy to be here.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We're happy to have you. What is on your mind, Zach?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Here would be your own home. Is that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's the here. Yes, the here we're all sharing, which is nowhere.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Some kind of platonic mental space.

[Caller]

I can't think of a funny ethereal joke on the spot. But anyway, I got a question about the atonement. Specifically. I've listened to all your stuff about the atonement, and I appreciate all of it. I just have one lingering question about it. So it's if the goat for Azazel can't be sacrificed because it has the people's sins on it, I was wondering why Christ's sacrifice while bearing the sins of the people is acceptable to the Father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Ah, it's Because Christ is both goats. See, I didn't.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think the question is, how could he be both goats?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, I guess so. Okay. But the point is that his sacrificial function there is not the goat for Azazel, it's the goat for Yahweh.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, well, we also have to say he's not literally both goats.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Right. He's not an actual goat.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, but I mean. But I mean in the sense that. Right. He is the full. What we mean by that is he is the fulfillment of both goats.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So he fulfills, fills full to overflowing what the scapegoat, the goat for Azazel did by taking away the sins of the people. And he fulfills what the goat for Yahweh, the sin offering and all of the sin offerings did by offering himself as a pure, unblemished sacrifice. Right. Turning his murder into a sacrificial. A voluntary sacrificial self offering. So he does boast of both of those things.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Does that make sense?

[Caller]

Yes, that. That does make sense. So am I. Am I kind of over literalizing the actual Putting sins on. On himself? Is that what's happening? Okay, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller]

I mean, thank you very much.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

He doesn't do every single thing the goat for Azazel does. Like, he doesn't go out into the wilderness and hand the, you know, even symbolically the sins over to a demon in the wilderness. Right, right. You know, so it's. It's. Yeah, it's. It's a fulfillment. It's not a direct identification in every possible way.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. The. The nature of fulfillment means that he does it in a superior way.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Caller]

Okay, that doesn't make sense.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. All right, thank you very much for calling. We now have Jim calling from St. Augustine, Florida. Jim, you're not Florida man, are you?

[Caller]

Well, Father, actually, after listening to the Samsonite episode, I realized that I live in the land of New Dan, so. I live in St. Augustine, land of New Dan.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, man. You might be Florida man. I've read so many newspaper headlines about you. What's on your mind, Tim?

[Caller]

So in modern speculative fiction, there are many, many rifts on the idea of a parallel universe or an alternate dimension and that type of thing. And to me, these stories, often they just. They reduce to dualism or determinism because whether you're a good Vulcan or a bad Vulcan depends on whether or not your universe has the Federation or the Empire, or that your fate is just decided by random things outside or the fate of the universe is decided by things outside of your control, like a tire in the Ma and PA Kent's truck. But as orthodox, is there a way that. Is there anything of value or meaningful that we can take away from these stories? Or is there any Christian way to interpret them? Is there a way that we can view the world that God originally created as the prime universe? And the one that we live in now with the consequences of sin, is a darkly mirrored alternate version or these stories only for entertainment value.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So I wouldn't say that they're only for entertainment value, but. But I don't think that they literally describe the universe as it actually, you know, the world that God created as it actually is. Because part of what's in some ways being, you know, like if this is the darkest timeline or a darker timeline, and then there's some other timeline that's not darker, then what does that mean in terms of the. The eschatological value of this world? Right. If, you know, the point is that this world has an arc. It has a story. There is the creation with Eden and so forth, and then there is fall, right? But then there's also rise. And I think that if you sort of fracture things out so that there's different versions, then what you get is it's easier to accept the idea that this world, because it's been corrupted. Well, that's just the way that it is. But, you know, but thank goodness there's some uncorrupted version somewhere else. The. The kind of narrative. Because you're talking about story, right? So the narrative tension is that in. In the way that the story actually is, is that the. That the story is ongoing and it's going to turn out differently than we have it now. Like the oppressed will be vindicated, the oppressors will be brought low, the day of the Lord is coming, and everything will be put to rights. Whereas if it's simply alternate timelines, then often the way that goes is that a given timeline just kind of keeps going in the direction that it goes. And the idea of redemption or something like that, why do you need that? Because you have something elsewhere that's better, Right? So, I mean, I think it is useful to think about stories and write stories and read stories of these kinds. But there is, you know, to my. I mean, this is a kind of a literary question, right? So to my literary understanding is that unless there is some kind of way of bringing them all together, which I think in some ways is some of what some of the spider verse stuff has been trying to do in the movies. I don't know if it succeeds unless there's some way of trying to bring them all together and kind of have a unitive story, then all you're really doing is you're serving the idea that, you know, like. Like if in a multiverse, right, where is God? Because God, the existence of a God implies that, you know, a true God, an omnipotent God, that there is a unifying narrative for everything. Whereas multiverse, the whole point of multiverse is that there's not. And it just kind of in some ways the, the spiritual effect of. Of that, if that's where we leave it, is to serve the current fragmentation of our. Of our society. What ultimately brings people together is that there is. That there is truth, one truth, you know, our Lord Jesus Christ. So, yeah, I mean, it's. It's interesting, but I, I think that to try to, you know, say that Eden is like one timeline and we're in some other timeline, there's problems there, you know, and from a literary point of view, I don't know. Father, what do you. What do you think about all that stuff?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, so, yeah, so that's from a cosmological perspective.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But I think. And I think using the. The couple of examples you gave is a good way at this. I, I think the point that the best of that kind of literature is making is actually an anthropological one, and it's one that has certain resonances with orthodox theology. So now St. Dimitri Staniloy, if you read his orthodox Dogmatics, talks about how a human person is in some sense absolute, that this is part of us being in the image of God, meaning that there is something about us, each of us, that is not determined by our heredity and our environment, that makes us free to choose, and that is a created gift of God. And so, for example, Spock and Mirror. Mirror is part of the Vulcan race that's been enslaved by the Terran Empire, right? But through the experience of the Captain Kirk's getting switched, he gets inspired. He gets inspired to begin essentially a kind of cultural revolution in his universe that gets talked about later in the Deep Space Nine episodes that go back to the Mirror Universe, or if we're talking about Justice League, the Nail, we see that the other heroes, for example, are still the other heroes. We have this meditation on the significance of Superman in particular, right. In his world. But if you look at a lot of the other Elseworlds, like the best of the Elseworlds, a lot of them, especially the Superman Ones he lands in Soviet Russia instead of Kansas. He lands outside Gotham City instead of Smallville and gets adopted by Thomas and Martha Wayne. Right. He lands on Apocalypse instead of Earth. At some point, there's a point in the story where, based on how he was raised, he has become quote unquote, bad Superman or evil Superman. But there's some point in the story where the person who he is kind of takes over. Right? And we find out, just like with Mirror Universe Spock, there was some of our Spock in there just having been repressed and conditioned by the environment. There is something about Superman who is still in that Elseworld's Superman that comes out and is and is sort of transformative. And so I think those stories are intended to inspire the kind of idea that St. Staniloy is talking about that regardless of your circumstances as a person and how bad they may be, that you find yourself in what you've gone through, what external forces are acting upon you, there is a part of you that is free and self determined and able to, for example, follow Christ, even if that costs you your life. That can be brought out this person who God created within you, regardless of whatever forces the world may want to marshal against it. So there's my overly theological reading of.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There you go.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Some Star Trek episodes in a comic book.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Fun question.

[Caller]

Thank you, Father.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And is it Alan Davis, an amazing artist?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. I have to say my favorite Mirror Universe thing, though, is where Hoshi Sato becomes Empress of the Universe and conquers everyone. I know it's just from Enterprise, but still. Anyway, thanks very much for calling, Jim.

[Caller]

Thank you, Father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All right, all right. We now have. We have, I think, David from Pennsylvania. So, David, welcome to Laura Spirits Podcast.

[Caller]

Hello, Is this thing on?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It is on. Where are you calling in from here in the Keystone State?

[Caller]

My town is Thompson Town, but a lot of people don't know where that is. It's kind of outside Harrisburg. It's a little bit.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, okay. All right, all right, all right. Well, hello down there. Hello. What's on your mind?

[Caller]

I have kind of a fun question, but maybe it might turn out to be useless for someone. So I was just thinking about. I'm still new to this. I'm looking at soon becoming a catechumen and like talking with a priest about that. But I was, you know, doing things like making sign of the cross and praying. It's just been really, really helpful for me. But I don't know, the funny thing I think is like, if someone were to. If someone were to, you know, lose Their right hand, which is typically the hand you would want to use. Is it. Is it. You know, would they just start using their left hand? Or is this kind of like how Dr. Strange was getting hung up on not being able to use the sling ring with. Because of his hands and they showed him. Well, it doesn't matter because look at this guy with no hands that can use it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm not a Whovian. It's too creepy for me.

[Caller]

No, Dr. Strange.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Dr. Strange man.

[Caller]

I'm sorry, no, you said Dr.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Strange.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I. I have.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm falling asleep already.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Some of the stuff is not coming through either way. I. I'm actually. I'm not that much of a Doctor Strange fan either. I mean, I like him. I just don't know his stuff that well.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Is it because of the Amy Grant thing?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, it's because of the Amy Grant thing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That makes me so happy. I mean, if someone's. Miss. Okay, if someone's missing a hand, they're missing their right hand or their right arm, that would be maybe even easier to ask. You know, I. I don't see why it would be a problem for someone to use the other hand to make the sign of the cross. I. I just don't see why it would be, you know, and I mean, I've. I mean, I. I recall. I can't remember if this was in a patristic text, but I think it was, you know, one of the. Whoever the writer was saying something to the effect like, if you can't use your hand for some reason, like, for instance, I think in the case of maybe a Christian who's captive and his hands are tied, you know, that they said, well, you can still make the sign of the cross with your eyes.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Move your eyeballs inside your head. So, like, it's not like there's something magical about a particular hand or whatever it is, obviously the custom, it is with lots of amazing symbolism to use the right hand.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But. But it's not like it's an absolute, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, it's okay. I don't know. Well, I don't know about the Doctor Strange stuff.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I'm just grumbling around in my head about the Doctor Strange thing because now I'm like, should you sort of make the sign of the cross with your phantom limb?

[Caller]

That's what I was thinking.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, that's like a whole fascinating concept. So I've just been ruminating on that while Father Andrew's been actually answering your question.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. All right, well, there's been a lot more pop culture this time around than I was expecting, so thanks for that. So thanks for. Thanks for calling, David. All right, next we have. I know he might be our most frequent caller, Samuel from Virginia. Welcome back to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's okay to be a regular.

[Caller]

So first, I wonder if the reason why the VeggieTales characters are all Protestant is because since they don't have hands, none of them can be ordained, and because none of them can lift up the chalice or do any of the other things that require.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow, that may be the spiciest take we've heard in a while. The Lord of Spirits podcast, yes. But they do move things around. How are they doing that?

[Caller]

I don't know.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Also, if they. If they were orthodox, when Lent came, they would not be safe.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So.

[Caller]

And I was also wondering about the creation of a church. And so in previous shows, you've talked about how the. In the paschal service, the lift up your gates so ye princes assault is part of participating in the harrowing of Hades.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So in.

[Caller]

In the consecration of a church, for example, a church that used to be a pagan temple like the Parthenon, would that be. Would the bishop consecrated that as church, be speaking to Athena, the former patron of that church?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Basically, yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because that is not just the invasion of the underworld, but specifically the invasion of Baal's palace in the underworld.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Psalm 24. Have you got a copy of the Baal book or is our. Our voiceover person the. The ball book?

[Caller]

Yeah. So if a pagan temple was selling. Was raising funds to build idols, would be they be selling BAAL bonds?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Isn't that one of the titles of your chapter?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think that's one of the chapter titles, yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Bail bonds. Bailout. People don't know what they're missing if they haven't gotten this book.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I mean, in reference to the. To the commercial, wasn't Origin convicted of ball worship as one of the. Wow.

[Caller]

Anyway, yeah, it was a pretty interesting book. I never really thought about the connections between BAAL and Zeus.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, all right, well, thank you very much for calling our regular Samuel from Virginia. Yeah, that was nice and quick. So, all right, well, next we have. I think we have Jennifer calling from Washington. So, Jennifer, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast.

[Caller]

Hi. Thank you.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Washington state or Washington D.C. washington state.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, so it's still afternoon up there, huh?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not the wretched hive.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You don't know?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Depends on where in Washington Washington State

[Caller]

can be a pretty wretched high, but.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So do you. Do you live in the part of Washington that is basically Idaho, or do you live in the other part of Washington? The part is Washington.

[Caller]

The other part of Washington.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So you're a missionary?

[Caller]

Where I live, I just say. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I say I'm near Seattle. Both of us don't really exist.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Did you used to live in Olympia?

[Caller]

You know what? I was born in Olympia, but I never lived there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Caller]

I actually used to live in San Diego, but it's been a while in

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

San Diego proper or in, like, La

[Caller]

Mesa, actually, all the way up in Temecula. But no one knew about Temecula either.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, Temecula's. I lived in Escondido and I was barely in San Diego. Come on. Temecula.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But no one knew about Temecula. Well, maybe people from Escondido knew about Temecula.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I went on a great wine tasting tour in Temecula.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Picnics all the time.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. David Letterman's favorite winery was in Temecula.

[Caller]

Oh, I love that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But did they have the El Paso

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Doble wine commercial, which was the most glorious wine commercial ever? I mean, come on.

[Caller]

Yeah,

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

there's a winery there in Temecula. Van Ruckel Winery. And from the name Van Ruckel, you could guess Dutch guy. But not just a Dutch guy. Calvin Seminary dropout.

[Caller]

Nice.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That opened a winery there.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, my goodness.

[Caller]

I'll have to visit next time I go visit my family. I'll have to try that one.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So many things are happening in this call. So, Jennifer, what is going on over there in the spiritual wasteland of Western Washington?

[Caller]

Well, first I just wanted to say, Father Stephen, thank you so much for your last words on the episode. So will something kill a goat? You had kind of given a similar. Similar answer to someone else's question when they were asking about burial and cremation. And the way that you put it, just like, God loves us. Coming from a Protestant background, even though we are told that, I just feel like that. And you guys know because you also came from Protestant backgrounds. But it's. It's so powerful to just be like, oh, yeah, God. God loves us and he wants us to be saved. And it's there in the scriptures and why don't we believe it? So just. Thank you. Thank you for putting it the way that you put it. And thank God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller]

So my question actually goes back to the episode on Divination when I was listening to it, I thought, is this. Is this kind of what personality tests are these days? I have so many friends who are really into the Enneagram and Myers Briggs, and I hate personality tests. But I don't know if I'm just biased because they never give me any useful information or if I hate them because they're spiritually wrong.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You must be an enfp. Clearly.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

True. True story. Father Andrew took a personality test and it came back negative.

[Caller]

Oh,

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

it's true. Yeah. I mean, it would be so easy to just go all out on this question.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Indulge yourself, sir.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, why not? I mean, I think everybody's looking for some kind of skeleton key, you know, and. Yeah, yeah. And I. I think that, like, it's interesting to me. I've noticed, you know, like, part of my job, I use social media, unlike Father Stephen, who just watches other people use social media. I. And, you know, when you use social media, you notice, of course, that ads are. You know, they're tailored to you and the best guess. Right. And one thing I noticed is that when I. When I turned 50, the ads, like, suddenly shifted, you know, and. Because, of course, like. I mean, like, my. My age is. Is. Is in these things. So. And there were all kinds of ads that were promising, like, they were techniques that had to do with usually health problems. You could tell it could turn to 50 or like, oh, so you're at a certain stage in your marriage now. You know, like, it's interesting, all these things suddenly went in this direction, and almost all of them were just like, look, if you buy our program, if you do our technique, if you. Whatever, you know. And often the promises were like, I did this one thing, crazy thing for a week, and it completely flipped my marriage or completely flipped my health completely. Whatever, whatever, whatever. And I think a lot of these personality tests, I mean, there's obviously a big variety of them, and they function in different ways. And I have friends who frankly, you know, think that they are useful and use them in their counseling practice. You know, thank God I'm not a counselor, but I don't know what I would do with myself if that were my job. But I think that people are looking for, like I said, a key, you know, like, oh, so this is the. And then. And what gets even more amazing, like, okay, I'm this. And then the person that I'm with is that. And of course. Of course you would say that. You're such an intj. You know, the one I know the best is Myrick Briggs. Right. Which I know all about INTJs because I'm pretty sure my brother must be one and he doesn't listen to this show, but people who know him do. And so it's, it's really tends to be reductionist is I think the problem. And, and in many ways often kind of cuts off the idea of repentance. You know, this is just who I am. This is just who you are. And that's just the way that it is.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And, and so I, I think that that's. Is it a form of divination maybe in that divination of course is looking for that. That again the skeleton key, you know the answer.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And within the Christian context the answer is, is usually okay, be faithful long term, whether you have results or not, because it's the right thing to do and because you know God will honor your faithfulness even if the person around you is not. Even if it doesn't feel any different. Right. I mean, I don't think that those things are necessarily useless. Some are more useless than others probably. But I think that the reason that people are interested in them is largely not good, even if it's well meaning because in many ways is about short circuiting the hard work of being human and sometimes about making excuses. I've known of people who've gotten divorced when they found out what they're doing. You know, different personality types were like, oh, this was never going to work, you know, because you're this and I'm that and that's wrong. That's absolutely wrong, you know, so I mean that's my take on all that. What do you think, Father Stephen?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, well, I.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What's the view from the swamp?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Is the Byers Briggs, the four letter thing?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, yes. Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, so I took that like three or four times over my high school undergrad, early grad school school days and got completely different results each time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, nice.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Which kind of told me that maybe, I don't know, not super helpful. But I think to me part of the issue is that it's kind of a way to get softball. Self knowledge. The most important thing you can have in life is self knowledge is to really come to know your and understand yourself. And this is a way of doing that that's very clean and nice because no matter what results you get on that test, you're not going to like look up your four letters and it's going to say you're a jerk, you have no friends. Right. Like

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

it's always give it up.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, no use trying, you know, like so you Know, it's always going to take, it's always going to give, oh, here are your good qualities. And then here's a way of making your bad qualities sound not so bad. Right. And that's not real self knowledge.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right?

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And this is a problem with a lot of, since Father Ed brought up a lot of counseling too, right? Is that a lot of counseling does the same thing. There's never, you're never really called upon to actually confront yourself. Right. It gets short circuit at some point, like you're talking to a Jungian and you know, it's like, okay, you've now come to see your shadow self, now embrace it. You know, that's, that's the opposite of what you want to do with the dark parts of yourself.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You want to repent of those, you want to try to exercise those.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so to me, that's, that's part of the, part of the danger of it. Right. It's kind of a bootleg confession for people who don't have confession. And it doesn't have the same.

[Caller]

Interesting. Yeah, right. Okay, so repentance, self knowledge leads to repentance. And the problem with these is that it doesn't really give you self knowledge and what it does give you is kind of telling you like, pat on the back, like you're doing okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, it could be, or it could be, you know, pretty damning, you know, could be kind of depressing.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I think, you know, like we, in the orthodox tradition, we have a part of our life is to tell us, like the whole point is to repent. Right. That's the whole deal. So, you know, how do we know how to repent? Well, we have our father confessors to say, look, you know, you're doing well in this way, but not so well in this way. Let's work on this. We have, of course, the people that we live with, not that this necessarily going to say you need to repent in this following way because like if you're married and your spouse says to you you need to repent in this way, that usually does not work. I mean, just from experience and from hearing about other people's experience, you know, repent. Oh, wife or husband of mine almost never works. But, but the way that our spouses and frankly our children or other people that we might be living with respond to us holds a mirror up to our sins. And so their opinion about our sins may or may not be correct, but the way that they're responding to our sins is, is an indication of how we need to repent. Right. And of course, then also our, our spiritual reading, our experience in church, you know, in the services, listening to the texts, of course, the hymns, but also just being present there and the beauty that we're experiencing and then looking at our own lives and seeing how that it doesn't, it's not congruent with that in one way or another. So all the tools that we really need to repent, we have in our lives as orthodox Christians.

[Caller]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, I'm not saying there's no place for counseling, but I mean, of course counseling is a huge broad variety of different kinds of things. There's good counseling and not so good counseling, but. And that can be. Certainly it could be part of the Christian life. I mean, I know priests who are professional counselors. Right. So, you know, it can be compatible. But, but this, this kind of, again, this sort of skeleton key idea that a lot of these personality tests, at least the way that people perceive them as offering, and frankly, some of them also present themselves as offering, that I think is a problem. And we, we don't really need that. We have everything that we need for repentance in the normal life of, of the orthodox Christian.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for calling, Jennifer, and keep the faith question. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[Caller]

Well, so in personalities, there's like personality disorders, and these are not part of the personality test, of course, but like in narcissism and stuff like that, they like, basically have difficulty seeing a need for repentance. How does that work for them?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, I, I don't know what it's like to be a narcissist. Who doesn't see a need for repentance?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I do. Oh, you know what it's like for

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

me to be a. No.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Everyone who knows you knows what it's like, Father.

[Caller]

That's right, exactly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, I, I mean, we're all selfish jerks. Right. In one way or another. Right. We all are. Whether that's labeled with the term narcissism or not. Yeah. I mean, one of our prayers is to be granted a vision of repentance, like we're praying right now in Lent. Grant me to see my own sins and not to judge my brother. That means I don't see my own sins. So I'm asking God, show me. I might know some of them, but just be, you know, oblivious about other ones. And, and that's why we have our husbands or our wives or, you know, other people that we're living with in our spiritual fathers.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Say, look, look, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The. I. I think it's important, too. And this goes back to some stuff we talked about with Michel Foucault on the. Didn't think he was going to come up tonight, but in our episode about. About madness in the sense of how he shows how we've now medicalized this stuff so somebody will be, oh, well, they've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, or they've been diagnosed as a narcissist. And the language we use causes us to frame it as if, like, they got measles. Right. It's sort of like, oh, well, it's not their fault. What those things mean, what those diagnoses mean, actually mean in the real world is that there are certain things, emotionally and spiritually and mentally that it is harder for those people to do than the average person. That comes less naturally to them. That doesn't absolve them of the need to do it. Yeah. The fact that it's harder for them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's. There's a famous story about a drunk monk who was. Because of his upbringing, he was basically raised as an alcoholic because, like, when he was a baby, his parents would give him little bits of liquor to quiet him down because they. Because they were, like, refugees or something like that, and they needed the baby to be quiet so that they don't get killed by the bad guys. And so he's. He's raised as an alcoholic. And people. I think this was on Mount Athos, people were scandalized because they would. They encountered this. This drunk monk. And then when he died, I think it was Saint Paisios. As I recall, someone asked Saint Paisius about this guy, and Saint Pisces is like, oh, no, actually, I saw the angels taking his soul to heaven, and they're like, wait, what? We thought he was a drunk. Like, how could he possibly, you know, you know, be this righteous person? And then Saint Pisces then tells him, like, okay, he was raised essentially as an alcoholic, and over time, he was able to cut down the amount of alcohol that he was drinking and cut it down to this smaller amount, but it still affected him. But he struggled in repentance his whole life, even though his struggle against alcohol, against drunkenness, was much more difficult than other people's. And from an external point of view, he was much less successful than most people. And yet God honored his struggle and, you know, saved him through that. So. Yeah. Yeah. So. All right, well, thanks for calling, Jennifer.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, thank you, Father.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All right, we have another Californian Calling. So we have Rachel on the line. Rachel, welcome to Laura Spirits Podcast.

[Caller]

Hello. Hello. I'm here.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes, you are here. Wherever here is, you're there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

California, Uber, Alice.

[Caller]

I am there. How are you guys today?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Good.

[Caller]

Good, good. So my question was, I don't want to take it as a bit of a downer, but I guess it is serious. Yeah, well, it's something that is close to my heart. So in the past, you guys have talked about how the calling of Adam is to put the world in order, and the calling of Eve is to. Is to bring life more or less. So, you know, I. I'm. You know, unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, I wouldn't assume that you're saying every woman is called necessarily to be a mother, but it, you know, I should say, for those of us who are not able to have, you know, biological children, does that mean that our calling is the calling of Adam, or is it still Eve's calling? How does that work exactly?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, well, I think some. Some nuance is important here. The biggest thing is that it is not that Adam has this one exclusive calling that only he does, and Eve has this one exclusive calling that only she does, and Nora definitely is it. Adam's calling involves this one thing, and Eve's calling involves this one thing as well. Right. They both need each other to accomplish both of the things that they're doing, and they both participate in those things. So Adam putting things in order, that doesn't only mean tilling the ground. It's kind of a general sort of ordering, structuring, and that sort of thing. But it doesn't mean that he has nothing to do with filling a place with life. And the example I like to give is I like to look at, for instance, men's monasteries and women's monasteries, because, you know, in both cases, these are celibate people. They're not having biological children, or if they had them, you know, they have left that behind, and now this is what they're doing. Men's monasteries typically have lovely flower gardens, but I've noticed that every women's monastery I've been to, they're way more and way better. Like, it's. It's just always the case. You know, they're both doing the life thing for sure, but one of them is definitely better at it. You know, they're both doing the hospitality thing, but one is definitely better at it than the other. It's just true. So, you know, for women that are, you know, like, not like if a woman becomes a nun from a young age, she's not having any, any babies, right? And that's, that's, you know, the choice that she's made. And of course, some women are biologically not capable of it, or their husband is not capable of helping them with that or whatever it might be, you know, or they're just single, whatever. That doesn't mean, like, oh, well, you don't get to do the thing that Eve was supposed to do. Filling, filling the world with life is not only about having babies. It's not only about having babies, but rather, I would say that these two tasks are sort of what they're sort of majoring in, but it's not the only thing they're doing, you know, and, and I think we can speak about these in terms of general tendencies of men and general tendencies of women that men who, who have no biological children can still be fathers. Indeed. I mean, most of our bishops have never had, you know, they weren't married, they had, they don't have biological children. We still regard them as fathers and monks who have never, never married, have never had children. We call them father because they're being fathers. And mothering is still a thing that women can do who have never had biological children in so many ways. There's many ways to be a mother. Right. So even though, like, the language centers on particular things that we can identify with a kind of biological center to it, that's not the only thing within the range of what these vocations mean, you know, and even those like my wife and I, we have biological children together, but I watch her be a mother to lots of people that are not our biological children, you know, and people call me father. Most people, most of the people who call me father are not my biological children. Right. So, so it's, it's, it's broad. In fact, actually, my kids never call me father. You know, it's always dad. But yeah, so, so, so I think it's best to think in these things in terms of ranges of, of activity with, with overlap, with significant overlap. Am I getting that right, Father, what do you think?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, yeah, I, I, I talked about this a little bit in a previous episode at one point, but obviously, yeah, we have to give source to, I mean, women in general, being able to give birth is a huge gift from God in general, but there's a lot more to the particulars of filling things with life. And a big part of that is identifying what is good, what is beautiful, what is pure and sort of Bringing that out. Right. Cultivating that, nurturing that, bringing it to fruition. Right. And that's part of the very practical aspect of what we mean by mothering. Like, in a spiritual sense. It doesn't have to be even younger people than you. Right. Just anyone you meet when you focus on spending time saying what is good, what is beautiful, what is true about this person and what they're saying and what they have to offer and helping bring that out and accentuate that and recognize that that is incredibly powerful in bringing people and communities to life, even if they seem kind of dead and bringing joy to people. Right. And as much as people say we're being stereotypical and chauvinist. Right. Just I hear people's confessions. Okay. It's interesting that when you talk about there are certain sins that men are more prone to and certain sins that women seem to be, in general, more prone to.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And high on the list of sins that women seem to be more prone to. In my experience, hearing confessions is the inverse of that. Right. The sin of gossip is the opposite of that. The sin of gossip is identifying everything bad, everything negative, everything ugly, and bringing that out and accentuating that and pointing at that. Right. And so, as you would expect, the sin is an inversion of the good. It's just a negation and an inversion of the good thing. This power that people have and women especially, to be able to bring those. To bring those things out.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What do you think, Rachel?

[Caller]

That makes a lot of sense for Father Andrew. Not trying to gotcha or anything, but you said that you think in your opinion, women are better at bringing life into the world. Would you say that, conversely, that men are better at putting things in order?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. I mean, that is. That is my. I'm not saying that women can't do that or that men can't bring life into the world. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This is all on the whole.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. As an overall kind of thing, you know, that. And. And. And that men tend to be attracted more to that and women tend to be attracted more to that. You know, that those are. Tend to be.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like I was saying, there are plenty of gossipy men out there. Right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Absolutely. The case.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Father Andrew and I hang around with other priests. Trust me, there are other gossipy men out there.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, peel back the. Not priests.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, priests couldn't possibly be gossipy.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. But sort of on the whole, that's. On the whole, that tends to be. And then there's other things that maybe we don't need to go into that men. Sins that men to Be. Tend to be more prone to. But there are women who do those things, right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Absolutely.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Who do those same things. So we're not saying, like, every man, every woman with any of this. We're talking about just general tendencies. There are very sloppy guys and very orderly women. Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. So. All right. Thank you very much for calling, Rachel. Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. Next up we have Michael from Louisville, Kentucky. Michael, welcome. Laura Spears podcast.

[Caller]

Hello.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hello.

[Caller]

We hear you follow up. Yes, I'm speaking not to nothing again, but I just had a follow up from the episode about the wet. You know, the one episode about the Latin theology, because I, I asked the, I asked the question involving that. Involving, like the righteousness and stuff like that. I just had a follow up on that if that was okay. Because I, I remember you told me to listen and I think part of my question was answered, but I wanted a clarification if that was okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, ask away.

[Caller]

Yeah, I just wanted to. Yeah, I just wanted to clarify because on two things, because one, I think Father Stephen was talking about, like, virtue, about faith being like a, what's it called? Like a, you know, you can't. Because, like, you can't hold on to it. Like you're unsure about it. Right. Especially like in a Protestant kind of worry. And I suppose I know that's for Calvinism, that's really prevalent because you have to look towards your works. But I know in, like Lutheran they look toward the sacrament. So I don't know how that applies to. That was like my first follow up and then I have a second one after that. That's okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're asking. Could you re. I don't know, Father. Did you get that?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, no, I think I know what you're talking about.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay. Okay, go ahead.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. So I was talking about. So the Lutherans still also consider faith to be an empty virtue and a receptive faculty. Right. But as you point out, they will often, when asked about assurance, they will point to the sacraments because they say. A Lutheran would say. Well, a Lutheran would say Martin Luther said in his catechism that they. The sacraments, at least the ones he accepted, which are actually three. Baptism and the Eucharist and absolution. Those are purely receptive. And he said that infant baptism is the purest form of baptism because the baby contributes nothing. Right? The baby just receives baptism. You receive the Eucharist, you receive absolution, forgiveness of your sins. Right. And that's why he was so Keen on having it be absolution and not confession.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because confession is doing something. So the problem with that, the problem with that, that's a better approach than the Calvinist approach. I will say there are things to recommend it over the Calvinist approach, but you still have the problem of Judas was baptized. Judas even received the Eucharist. It was still his mouth when he went and betrayed Christ.

[Caller]

Okay, yeah, yeah, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You see what I'm saying? Like, there are people who aren't going to end up finding salvation who have received the sacraments.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, I guess. I guess that would make sense with us. Like the thief on the cross as well.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah,

[Caller]

okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and deeply appreciate your answer. The second follow up I just had was like, I just wanted to make sure I understood, like, the East North Flax idea of, like, the righteousness. Because, like, I think I got it from what you guys have said in the past on the podcast. And like, I read your writings, but I just wanted to confirm, like, because, like, in my head I think it makes sense, but I don't know if, you know, want to make sure I'm like, understanding it correctly because in my mind I was thinking, like, the Eastern Orthodox view is that, you know, it's the theosis. And if the righteousness is Christ and the relationship that's formed from yourself, therefore there's not like a problem of like, oh, am I perfect or not? Because you're growing closer to Christ and that perfection of righteousness is the person formed out of Christ. Is that. Am I understanding that right or am I totally off, like, thinking wrong?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What do you think, Father?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, so this is, this is

[Caller]

so

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

what is understood as links in a chain. Right. In classical Protestantism, we understand as aspects of theosis. So justification being made righteous, us becoming righteous, us being set right. Right, Put back in order. That is one sort of facet of theosis. Sanctification, us being made holy. That's another facet of theosis. That's another thing that's happening in theosis as we are being made holy. Glorification, Christ coming to share his glory with us is another facet of theosis. All of these are going on at the same time. And none of these are us being made holy or righteous or, or receiving our own glory, like, apart from God. All of this is us coming to participate in God's righteousness, God's good order, God's holiness, God's glory in and through Christ. Right? And through us being transformed into his likeness. Right? So these Are all things that are happening at the same time?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you clarifying that and I appreciate you answering, answering the follow ups I had with all that and my rambling. I appreciate you and your patience.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All good.

[Caller]

You guys have a good night.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You too. Thanks very much for calling. Michael. All right, our next caller is from the great white frozen North. David is calling from Montreal. David, welcome to Laura Spirit's podcast, Father is Blessed.

[Caller]

Can you hear me?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, we hear you. God bless you. Welcome.

[Caller]

Yeah, so I had a quick question regard to something you spoke in the past about authority and responsibility. Because you spoke when we spoke about the bishop in the past. I know you mentioned that, for example, bishops, because they have more authority because of apostolic and Mosaic succession, they will be held accountable to a higher degree. Basically everybody under them is under their responsibility. And you said that the follow up for this is that for a priest, it would be the same thing. A priest will be held accountable for, let's say, his parish. I wanted to know like, is there a limit to this? For example, I'm guessing that if Father is going to be held accountable for his children, souls and so on, but on horizontal plane, is it the same thing? Like, am I accountable for someone else? If you have a position that's been assigned to you at the parish, say you are a reader or a chanter or even like a catechist, are you accountable or because it's been delegated to you, especially like as a catechist is delegated to you, like is the responsibility still, let's say the priest or bishop that told you to do this or is it on yourself? And I'm asking because, for example, in the military, you know, they're going to say that you can delegate tasks, you can delegate some sort of authority and so on, but the responsibility is always back to the person that delegated, you know, it's not to the person that was delegated. So I was wondering about this kind of aspect with regard to a spiritual authority.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. So the accountability is. It's not like in the military where you just sort of pass the buck up, so to speak. It's rather your accountability is for the, the task, the particular responsibility that you have. Right. So if you're a catechist in the church, your accountability is that you teach well and for the relationships that you have with the people you're catechizing. Right. That is that, that is the particular accountability. But you're also accountable for all of your relationships that you're in. These are People that God has brought to you. You know, so it's, it's, it's absolutely overlapping. It's not like, well, this person is accountable, you know, for these people, and therefore no one else is accountable for them because they've got them. You know, it's not exclusive like that. It's really that whatever responsibility God gives to us, whether it's delegated through someone else or, you know, through our own actions. Right. Like, so if you have, if you have children, God has given you those children. If you have students, God has given you those students. He might have done it through some other authority, but you still have, have, have those people, as you know, that you are responsible for in one way or another. If there is another authority that God is working through, then that other authority, of course, is also responsible and for the way that they delegate that authority. Right. To make sure that it's being delegated well, and it's being carried out well, and so forth. So there's a lot of overlapping and, and like, you know, just the person that you are. There are many people in your life who, who are responsible for you in one way or another. Right. Just the fact that they have a relationship with you, but it might also be somebody who's an authority over you as well. Um, so. So yeah, it's, it's, it's not an absolute thing. It's not utterly discreet. It's not exclusive, but it's whatever has been put into your hands, you're responsible for that. To whom much is given, much is required is the principle that's. That we see in Scripture. Yeah. What else, Father? What else needs to be said here?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, I think there's also an element, though. I think there is a certain amount of responsibility with delegation also. Not instead of. But in addition to.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So I mean, if a priest puts someone in charge of catechizing people who has only been orthodox for six months themselves, or he hears that they're teaching weird things and doesn't do anything about it. Right. Or if a bishop ordained someone as a priest hastily without due diligence, and then that person is hurting people and causing problems, that the bishop doesn't act right, then I think that authority who delegated is responsible at a certain point for what that person is doing, who they've given authority to.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So I think that is also the case. I don't think it's an either or. I think it's a both. And Right. If, if that. This is why, like St. Paul tells St. Timothy, do not be hasty in laying hands upon a man. Right. Talk about ordination. That there is. When you're. When you give someone authority, there's kind of. There is a responsibility in terms of what they're going to do with it if you haven't done your due diligence. Right. In the same way that saying that a father in a family is responsible for his children is not saying if they sin, God punishes you for it, it's saying in terms of your interaction with them and how you raise them. If you teach them how to shoplift, well, then, yeah, you're responsible for their stealing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But if you are raising them in the faith and doing these things, your kids still have free will. Right. So if your kid rebels against what you've taught them and how you raise them, you're not responsible for the things they do in their rebellion. You're responsible for how you raised them and how you interacted with them. In the same way, the person who delegates is responsible for doing their due diligence to find a qualified person to delegate to. And then if they hear there's a problem, acting to resolve that problem. But they're not held responsible for every single thing that person does, you know, without their knowledge. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Does that make sense?

[Caller]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So it's. So in a sense, there is this kind of sense that it's a web of relationship, but also at the same time, there is added responsibility on top of that web based on your station and what you're doing and so on.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Caller]

If I understand correctly.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And can I ask a second question?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sure.

[Caller]

Okay, cool. So the second question, I guess it's going to be more for Andrew, but, you know, both can jump in. So I know in the past you've spoken both about, like, monarchy and, like, kingship and so on and so forth. And there's the. It seems to me that at least in the early Middle Age, there wasn't much difference between kingship in, let's say, Western Europe under Rome and then Eastern Europe. And then as it grew, maybe there was a bit more change, but it wasn't that drastic. I was wondering when I read something like, for example, Lord of the Rings with Aragorn as a figure of a king, it feels to me as if it's almost more of a ancient vision of kingship, like almost more antiquity, both pagan and, let's say, ancient Israelite kingship. Like, it seems to me there's a lot of this, but then there's also a lot of imagery Thrown that's more medieval, of course, with like the tree and the way they exercise justice and so on. So I was just wondering, like, when we look at fiction like this, and in this case particularly Tolkien, like, can it give us an idea of what some form of kingship, Christian kingship, could look like? Of course, I'm not talking about a fantasy element. I'm more talking about, you know, the morality, the responsibility, authority, etc. Etc. I don't know if my question makes a lot of sense.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, I mean, so, so Tolkien's, Tolkien's idea of Aragorn. I mean, there's a mountain of writing about Aragorn and kingship out there, but he, he definitely is participating in biblical visions of kingship, but of course also medieval ideas of kingship. All those things are happening there. And I think it's for those who want to interpret Tolkien in a Christian way, which that includes me. It's, it's very rich ground to draw that kind of thing from. You know, Aragorn is, he's an ideal king because number one, he's self sacrificial, but also one of the ways that, and so that makes him a Christian king, but also that he's a good sort of Germanic or Anglo Saxon king in that any wealth that he, that comes into his hands, he passes it down. So like he's, after he's crowned, for instance, he's shown, you know, giving gifts and so forth as he should to those who are loyal to him and those who are, who serve him. You know, his, he's, he's also depicted as a healer. Right. And so there's this kind of messianic element to Aragorn as well. All of these things going on at the same time. He's sort of a, he has a kind of a prophetic role also because he's called to put things right, to put things in order. So, yes, I think it's very valuable for us to have images like that and to interpret them in those ways. Anything you want to add, Father Stephen?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, I'll say first of all that Aragorn is a descendant of ancient Atlanteans. So he is a Nephilim.

[Caller]

That's true.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There's some truth. He's a repentant giant.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But this is, this, this is, this is the biggest area, I think of discontinuity with ancient kinship. Kingship. Yeah, that fact. Right, because so what, what happens in, in the east, obviously for an extra thousand years, you have the Roman Empire still existing, right. And an emperor and a King are not the same thing.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I won't go into all the Roman cultural things about, but Rex is the one title the emperor never had. But an emperor is ruling over peoples and nations, plural. Whereas in the west, as they started to rebuild, Right. Pre Christian, you have basically tribal cultural divisions.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

As Christianized and then Nicene Christianized Western Europe starts to happen, and they're looking for a model for a more stable social existence. They deliberately pattern kingship after Old Testament kingship.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

As. As the only form of government ever directly ordained by God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

In the Old Testament. And part of that is in Deuteronomy, when God says when you place a king over yourselves, it is not to be a foreigner, is to be one of your brothers.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so a critical aspect of that separates kingship in the west from the more imperial system that continues in the East. Right. And then gets sort of transferred to the czar of all the Russias.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Meaning the Caesar of the. Is that idea that the king is one of the people that he is ruling over a people group that he. And he is one of them who has been placed over the other. And that forms a different kind of bond and relationship

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

between

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

the king and the people than you have with an emperor and I think ultimately than what you get with Aragorn, because Aragorn, to me, I'm no Tolkien expert. Right. But coming at it from somebody who's read a lot of classics, it's a lot closer to the classical idea of a king, meaning, like ancient Greece, where you have a man who is a superior kind of human who you place over you, who is sort of born and destined to rule by virtue of his nature. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's definitely in there. That's definitely in there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So I think that's more classical than the medieval view, which was very particular in terms of a particular. People have their king. Right. So, yeah, that's the Father Andrew gave you the continuities, I gave you the discontinuity.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

There we go. All right, well, thank you very much for calling, David, and thanks a lot.

[Caller]

And I hope you guys continue making it for a long time. I've been listening since the beginning, and

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I'll keep listening by your prayers. Thank you. All right, we're going to go ahead and take our second break, and we'll be right back with this all Q and A, all live episode of the Lord of Spirits.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and father Stephen DeYoung will be back in a moment

[Caller]

to take your calls on the next

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

part of the Lord of spirits. Give them a call at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Written by Father Pavel Soucek of blessed

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

memory, with wisdom and a deep love

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

for God, the An Orthodox Christian Catechism

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

is a book for all who hunger

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

to understand what it means to live as an Orthodox Christian. From an explanation of the creed to an exploration of the sacraments and the role of holy scripture and tradition, this slim volume contains everything the new convert needs to participate fully in the church and to grow in faith as an Orthodox Christian. Find it [e-mail] that's store.ancient faith.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We're back now with the Lord of Spirits with Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. If you have a question, call now at 855-237-2346. That's 855-AF-RADIO.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hey, welcome back, everybody. It's an all live, all question and answer episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast. And see, Father, I let that half go for over an hour just to make you feel like you were getting all that you possibly could out of that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You were called out in public and it worked. So I will continue to do so. Oh, no, you're in for it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I shouldn't have let that. Yeah, I'm in for it now. I'll just have to double down, go back, swing the other way. So.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

All right, this half will be five minutes long.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. There we go. Good night, everybody. Okay, well, next we have another caller from Louisville, Kentucky. So, Tyler, welcome to Laura Spirits Podcast.

[Caller]

Hello, Fathers.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Hello.

[Caller]

Hi. I have a question about The Breastplate of St. Patrick.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Caller]

So even before I was Orthodox, it's like people discover it and they think it's this amazing and beautiful tear jerking poem and prayer. And even since becoming Orthodox, I thought, well, it's a nice way to take a lorica, like a, like a magical spell formula and switch it out into a prayer. And then I listen to you guys and I'm back to thinking it's probably magic because the, the first portion of the prayer is calling all these powers of nature to defend you. The second portion of the prayer is plugging Christ in for other beings, but in a, like, almost kind of, it feels kind of like warding people off with him in a way that doesn't feel right. And then the third part of the tradition is that St. Patrick wrestled with God on the mountain until he convinced God to save anyone's soul that praised the prayer every day, which feels definitely magical. So I just wondered your thoughts on it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yet another facet of the Irish problem. Wow.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Although St. Patrick, of course, was not Irish. He was an immigrant. Well, you know, initially taken as a slave by Irish pirates. So really, there's nothing in The Breastplate of St. Patrick, or the lorica, as it's also called, that is not biblical. Okay. So, I mean, lorica itself, it just means body armor. So that's why it's also called the Breastplate of St. Patrick. It's just a translation of that word, that Latin word. But I mean, let's look at how it begins, right? It says, I arise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity.

[Caller]

Right, right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's where it begins. And that's the frame for the whole thing. Okay. And, you know, it goes on, for instance, talks about, you know, a belief through the. In the threeness of the Trinity, confession of the oneness of the Trinity, of the creator of creation. So this is clearly like it's all about through God, you know, and who he truly is. Right. I mean, the way that it continues on is the strength of Christ's birth and his baptism, the strength of his crucifixion, his burial, the strength of his resurrection, ascension, the strength of his descent from the judgment of doom. Right. That's descended to Hades. Right. Like, and then there's references to calling upon, you know, the various ranks of angels through the various kinds of saints, all this sort of stuff. I mean, this is. This is. It certainly has a different kind of poetic character to it than a lot of, you know, Byzantine hypnography. But the content itself is. Is really no different than all of that. So even if someone says, even though you get, for instance, this notion of the strength of heaven, the light of the sun, the splendor of fire, whatever the frame for all of that is God's creation of those things, all of those things are gifts from God. There's nothing good that does not come from God. Nothing good that does not come from God. Right. So if I say something like, I arise through the strength of my. My right hand, well, that doesn't mean I'm trusting only in myself. I mean, it might mean that, but. But if I acknowledge that that comes from God and that is a gift from God, then then it's because of what God has given me. Right? I mean, the whole thing is that way. And it goes back and forth between you know, references to things in creation, but also God's particular. His actions, right? God's strength, his might, his wisdom, his eyes his ears, his word, his hands. On and on and on. I mean, it just goes on and on. I mean, you know, I'm looking at the text right now as you might have guessed. You know, the magic.

[Caller]

I thought you memorized it. I was impressed.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, don't be too impressed. I know, Pete. I know people who have memorized it, of course. You know, but. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's really. And it ends with the invocation of the Trinity as well, just as it does at the beginning and right before that. Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me, Christ on my right, Christ on my left. Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down. I mean, what is he putting his faith in? It's really obvious. It's really obvious. Okay,

[Caller]

did I misunderstand then? I guess I would have thought that your definition of, like, magic or idolatry or witchcraft was the control aspect of it, whether Christ is the recipient of the prayer or not.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, okay.

[Caller]

Is that true?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

What makes Christian prayer different from pagan prayer is the understanding that God is completely free and is in no way manipulated by the particular words or actions that you take. So it's a request, right? It's a prayer, indeed. Prayer means to ask.

[Caller]

Yes. Yeah, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, this idea that if someone says the prayer every day, they'll be saved within the whole context of the Christian tradition. Of course, that doesn't mean. If I just read this out loud and do nothing else as a Christian, I'm. I'm golden.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You know, of course, it doesn't mean that the whole Christian tradition mitigates against that. That interpretation. I mean, are there cases of people using traditional Christian prayers as magical formula? Of course there are. Of course there are. You know, I mean, in Psalm 50 or, you know, 51, depending on which version of psalms you're reading, you know, Greek or Hebrew. You know, David says, very deliberately, you know, basically that God has rejected. You know, God doesn't want your sacrifices, your actions, you know, like this, if you don't have a contrite heart, but then when you have it, then you do these things. This is the whole package. Right? And there's many places in the Old Testament where God basically says to Israel, cut it out, because you're not living. Right, Right. So. So, you know, they're acting like they're. They were acting as though the actions themselves, the prayers themselves kind of took care of everything.

[Caller]

So even in one sense, if you live by that prayer every day, you will be Saved?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Absolutely. I mean, if you do everything that's in there and you live in such a way that you're putting your faith in Christ in all these ways and you're invoking all the saints in all these ways, like. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the most awesome pieces of Christian poetry that we have. And I love the fact that it's so beloved in the English language and that a lot of orthodox Christians have latched onto it. It's completely an orthodox prayer in every way.

[Caller]

Good. Thanks for clearing that up. Now I'm curious what Father Stephen meant by the Irish problem.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I don't know, man. I don't want to poop over everyone's party.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I just

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

don't have the same love for the English language. And I remain somewhat unconvinced. But sometimes he just says things just

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

to mess with people. But also lurking deep within him is some very dark thoughts as well.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. You know, so I will. I will choose to pass over this in silence.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, there we go.

[Caller]

So the last caller threw in a bonus question, and can I get a small pop culture one in?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sure.

[Caller]

Okay. So I listened to a Twin Peaks podcast called Diane, which is basically Lord of Spirits for neo pagans, discussing Twin Peaks. And they talk a lot about symbolism and they talk a lot about. About that kind of thing. And so they mentioned that they're British and they mentioned that Laura Palmer was a homecoming queen and they didn't know what homecoming was. And so as neo pagans, they researched it and they said, oh, it's. It's the closest thing that Americans have to a. To a ritual because.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, they figured it was a May queen somehow.

[Caller]

Yeah, they said, like, they embody the spirit of the school and it's a male and female. There's mind altering substances, there's dancing, there's an expectation of sexual things happening, and there's a weaker opponent that's defeated in a battle and all this kind of stuff. Wow, I heard that. I was like, oh, my gosh, is homecoming a pagan May queen ritual? What do you think?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

I think they've grossly misunderstood a popularity contest.

[Caller]

Teenagers and everything.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. Like, there's not. So I would love it if, just personally, if the homecoming king every year at schools was like some kind of Nietzschean Uberman. She would overcome all opposition and, you know, become the creative child who envisions a new type of world and makes it happen. But it's usually just like the cutest guy on the football team.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And he's some kind of jock jerk who you know, and, like, there's only one clique of kids who actually go to homecoming or care. So, yeah, I think functionally in Twin Peaks, the whole homecoming queen thing is the whole setting of Twin Peaks is supposed to be nostalgic and reflect a previous era of American life in the 50s and 60s that was more wholesome than the world. And now sort of the world and the horrors of the late 80s and early 90s are intruding into this town. So I don't think they got the connotations of homecoming queen to an American audience watching Twin Peaks.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, okay. I could see that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All right, well, thanks very much for calling.

[Caller]

Appreciate it. Bye.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay, well, kids, when you vote for your homecoming king this year, find the ubermensch in your midst. Even if he's part of the D and D club. Yeah, yeah, the chess club.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. So. All right, well, next we have Daniel calling from Northern Indiana. I feel like the call is coming from inside the house. Where in Northern Indiana are you, Daniel? Are you in Chesterton?

[Caller]

Nope. I am sitting in Middlebury, which is about 15, 20 minutes south of the Michigan border.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, I was worried you were going to say Gary, and I was going to tell you. Get out. Run.

[Caller]

Yeah, Gary is the bane of our wonderful state.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Wow.

[Caller]

Yeah, it really is.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So what's on your mind, Daniel from northern poor man's Ohio?

[Caller]

What? Indiana is better than Ohio. Way richer.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow.

[Caller]

Anyway, anyway, I don't know about that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Go.

[Caller]

So I'm asking about the promise of David's throne in. Well, firstly, in Second Samuel or Second Kingdoms 7, you know, and Nathan tells David not to build the temple because he's a man of blood. And God says, you know, I'll establish your throne forever. And, you know, if your son sins, I will chasten him with the scourge of men, but my loving kindness I won't take from him, and your throne shall be established forever. And then, you know, then you go to Psalm 89 and that same understanding is reflected. And it's a lament that David's throne has not been made strong or has not endured. The context maybe isn't totally clear. And then you have that same understanding in First Kings or Third Kingdoms 11, where it says that Rehoboam was left when Jeroboam rebelled against Rehoboam, that Rehoboam was left one tribe for the sake of David. You know, that David may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem. But then, of course, we get to the exile, and David does not always have a lamp before God. In Jerusalem. So how. How do we understand this?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

This is definitely your question, Father. What's going on here?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, well, so this is why when you read the end of Chronicles and the end. Or the end of second Chronicles, the end of fourth kingdoms, in both cases, it's talking about the heir to the Davidic throne and how he's being well treated, albeit in Babylon. That's as. As the king. And of course, while you don't again, until Christ. Right. You don't have a king physically sitting on a throne who's from the line of David, because of course, the Hasimonians weren't until Christ. What's important is that in addition to the passages you quote, you also read the parallel passage to God's promise to David in Chronicles. In 1 Chronicles. Because in 1 Chronicles, the wording is slightly different. It says, I will establish you on my throne forever, meaning my capital M. Gods.

[Caller]

Okay. But that's still a man being established on God's throne forever, that man being established forever.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so when he's talking about your son, right. We all know he's talking about what he said, talks about chastising his son for disobeying. We know he's talking about what happened with Rehoboam, as you point out. Right. And so the idea is, when Chronicles is written, why is that different? It's not just, oh, well, I heard it was worded this way when the prophet said it. Right. It's worded that way. There's a theological thing going on there. The Bible never does quote, unquote, objective history. They didn't have a concept of objective. Right. So Chronicles is being written from exile. That's why it can end with talking about what was going on in exile. And so it sees the fulfillment of that prophecy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's reading the word olam that we translate forever differently. It's reading it as eternally rather than always into the future.

[Caller]

Okay, Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like for every moment from now until the end of time, it's reading it as olam of right of the age. Right. That it's. That it's eternally. Right. And so Chronicles is already seeing the fulfillment of that in the Messiah who was to come. Right. Who would be descended from David, but had already processed the fact that the promise was not primarily material. So this is the dynamic we've talked about in terms of prophecy in the Old Testament several times, where you have a. A sign and then you have a larger promise. So what unfolds with David in terms of his son literally sinning and God literally chastising him, but that line continuing. Right. The contrast there is with what happened to Saul.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Saul sinned and his line was cut off. Right. There were no descendants of Saul left. Right. So David, that's not going to happen to. Even though his son is going to sin, he's just going to get chastised. He's going to get disciplined, but not wiped out. That will possess the Messiah. And then the Messiah is going to sit on God's throne eternally. That's the bigger promise. So as the things regarding Solomon and Rehoboam unfold, that's the sign of the bigger promise from the perspective of Chronicles. Right. And this is just one example. You could have brought up several similar issues.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like God saying the Levites were going to offer the sacrifices of Leviticus forever.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It says that that would be.

[Caller]

Would be a wonder for me too.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, right. The same thing. And it's because of the word that's being translated as forever. And obviously Jewish people can't read that literally either because they don't have Levites offering sacrifices right now.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That the word olam that is better translated eternally. Right. Has reference to this idea of eternally in the heavenly places. That's more the referent than just an unending sequence of moments into the future.

[Caller]

Let's. Sorry, I don't want to. I don't want to interrupt. This is your show. No, no. Yeah, okay. If what you're saying is true, it still doesn't quite answer the question for me of. Okay, if. If it was only God is establishing David on God's eternal throne. If I'm understanding you correctly, then still, why was Rehoboam left at all? Why wasn't he just wiped out? Because the throne was, in the physical sense, wiped out entirely in the exile.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

David's throne.

[Caller]

Yeah, right. So what? It seems to not make sense of this idea that Rehoboam had to be left these tribes for David's sake. And maybe the, you know, the broader concern here would be is first Chronicles just reinterpreting to make things viable, and that was not the proper original understanding of it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, no. The idea is that Rehoboam has to remain a king for it to be chastisement.

[Caller]

Okay, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

For it to just be chastisement and not. Right. When you look at the dynasties of the Northern Kingdom, right. You have Jeroboam, Jeroboam's son, Jeroboam's son is assassinated and replaced.

[Caller]

Right, Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The guy who replaced him has a son that son gets assassinated and replaced. Right. Saul had a son. Saul's son never got to be king.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So if that had happened to Rehoboam, or even if he had died, if he'd just never been king, Right. Then that promise about chastisement, that sign that. No, with you, it's going to be different. Wouldn't have been there. Right.

[Caller]

So throne still fell before Jesus arrived on the scene.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right? There stopped being a throne in, In Israel. Yes. Yeah. There stopped being sacrifices during that time. There stopped being all of those things during that time. Because again, that's not what forever means. So it's like, it's like with the land, Right. God promises the land. He brings them into the land. The land is the sign of them shining like stars in the heavens eternally. Right. They didn't keep the land forever.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. You get the sign. Once the sign is done, you don't need to keep the sign going, right. To have. Because the sign happened, you now have the hope of that future fulfillment.

[Caller]

Except the sign was not the sign to be a thing of perpetuity. I guess I'm struggling to understand a meaningful difference or a practical difference between eternally or forever. If offered sacrifice eternally.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Eternally has to do with the kingdom of God.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It doesn't mean linearly going on forever and ever.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. We're not talking about an infinite line. We're talking about completely apart from that line. Our Lord Jesus Christ is a descendant of David. He sits on the throne of God eternally, Not just into the future forever. Eternally.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes.

[Caller]

Okay. Okay. I think I maybe understand what you're getting at.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Great.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caller]

How did the Levites or, Or David. I guess the Levites might be easier to grasp somehow. But how did the Levites participate eternally even though they were done away with?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, this is what Hebrews is doing. So it's talking about Christ eternally offering the sacrifice of atonement in the heavenly. The eternal holy of holies. Right. The tabernacle on earth is a pattern of what Moses saw on the mountain in the presence of God himself. And so what the Levites are doing is they are establishing that pattern on earth within the pattern on earth. Right. And then Christ fulfills that in the actual heavenly places eternally. Right.

[Caller]

Is what Hebrews is saying the Levites weren't doing it eternally then. I, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to just waste your time with argument here. I'm. I'm just not understanding the kernel of what you're Saying,

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. So the idea is what the Levites are doing, right. Is an image and a sign on earth, an icon of what Christ does in the heavenly places eternally.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

So it's just like when we say that the Divine Liturgy is eternal, we don't mean it never ends after we started on Sunday morning, and just keeps going and going and going and going. You know, it has a. Within linear time. It has discrete being, an ending, but it is eternal in that it's participating in the eternal reality.

[Caller]

Right, okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Christ makes what the Levites were doing eternal.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This isn't easy to understand. This isn't you being obtuse or anything. This is not easy to understand. This is difficult to understand. Kind of difficult to explain.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because it's difficult for us to understand. But like with David, again, think about, right? So what we're saying is that ultimately David's kingship was patterned after Christ's kingship, Right? So you'll notice David in the psalm says, the Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. You notice that's in the past tense?

[Caller]

Yes. Yes, it is.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But when Christ quotes it, everybody's clear

[Caller]

that it's talking about the Messiah because Jesus has already. Or the Messiah has been established on.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so David's kingship is an image of Christ's kingship.

[Caller]

Okay, so when we get to something, and this is maybe somewhat of a side question, but when we get something like Psalm 89, does that reflect a lack of understanding on the part of the author, in this case Ethan Ezrahite, about what God's promise meant? Somebody suggested to me that some of the Psalms are there to teach God's children to complain.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. I frequently tell people who are dealing with stuff, right. Especially dealing with stuff, where they maybe feel a little angry with God to pray the Psalms. Because I say, you know, sometimes we're a little too pious, right. And we have those feelings that we don't want to express ourselves. Oh, I can't feel that way about God. I can't be angry with God. I can't be frustrated. Number one, God's not scared of us. He's not worried. Right? But number two, there are Psalms there. If you pray the Psalms, there are a lot of them that are just praising and giving glory to God. And there's a whole bunch of other ones that are like, how long, oh, Lord, am I going to suffer like this? Are you not listening to me? Are you not paying attention? Do you not care? And all these Things. And I say if you pray those, because you're praying a psalm, you can kind of get those feelings out and express them in a way that you don't have to then turn around and feel guilty about. God has given you holy words to express that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller]

So you would say the answer is yes, that Ethan did not perhaps fully understand the depth of God's promise.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who does?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Who could? Who could? Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And fully experience that at every moment. We're humans. We're finite. We're weak. Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

It's just we have doubts.

[Caller]

We have.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You know.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

There's a way to have doubts and to be weak and to not understand that is holy and a way to do that and lots of ways to do that that are unholy.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, Exactly. Exactly. So. All right, well, Daniel, I hope that that helps, and I hope that it also gives you a lot to chew on for the future. So thank you very much for calling.

[Caller]

Yes, thank you so much for taking the time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Sure, sure. Okay, our next caller is once again from the great state of Washington. So, Martin, welcome to the Lord of Spirits podcast, Father's Bless.

[Caller]

Long time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Bless you.

[Caller]

First time caller.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All right.

[Caller]

Yes, I heard a last caller was from Temecula, which is funny because I actually went to high school there, but I actually grew up in San Diego. That's the difference.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

How do you go proper, as it were?

[Caller]

I grew up in Kerdi Mesa.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah. I was a Navy brat, so close enough.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Caller]

So I have a question. I've heard some Orthodox apologists using pre lust among some of the Roman Catholic saints as a sort of system defeater to their claim as being the true church. And I was talking with someone who was Protestant, and they kind of. They were trying to do something similar with Orthodox saints in regard to the historical life of Saint Justinian and Saint Theodora, in that they were trying to say that, oh, well, using examples such as her not being a. Her being non Caledonian and promoting that church and being married to a Chalcedonian, and then using her experience as an actress to influence St. Justinian, and that's how she was able to climb up the, you know, the ladder of power, so to speak. And then pretty much also, like the moral fabric of Constantinople at that time, you know, the theater scene and a lot of the stuff that was going on publicly, being like, oh, look, you know, this is, you know, the holy, holy city. And look. Look how they were morally. And. And, yeah, just kind of using that as a system defeater to be like, oh, well, you Know they can't be the true church because look at, you know, these are the people that were claimed as saints and look what they did. And so I just, I didn't have a very good response and I was wondering if you might be able to help.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, well, I mean, number one, Saint Theodora, who happens to be my wife's patron saint, she is a saint of the, of the Orthodox Church. I do not know if the non Chalcedonians have her as, as their saint, but she is definitely a Chalcedonian Orthodox saint with her feast day on November 14 along with her husband. Not a lot of people remember that because of course that is also the feast day of St. Gregory Palamas and St. Philip the Apostle. And they're kind of big deals in their own rights. So. So. Yes, but what, what I would say is moral failures by no means validate or invalidate the true churchness of any church any more than the prophet King David's very obvious moral failures that we all know about because he told us about them, invalidate him as being truly the King of Israel and indeed the King of Israel, as far as, you know, as the model of the King of Israel, at least until Christ comes. This idea that you can mention prelist as this, as you say, system defeater. Like just say, oh well, your saints are under spiritual delusion, therefore they're wrong. I mean, what a copy.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, hold off.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No, it is, it is. It's a cop out.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, it's right in the context you would agree with the saints were talking about. You would agree.

[Caller]

Yes, I think I know which ones we were talking about.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah, I don't think you know who he's talking about. Father Andrew. So.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, I don't know, but I mean the idea, but, but just the idea that you can essentially say, well, your saints were deluded and therefore you're not the true church. That's just like calling the other person a liar. Okay, if they're a liar, then what more do we have to talk about, you know?

[Caller]

But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, so tell me what I'm missing here that I'm not.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, no, I think you're right on the other score.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The Protestant trying to do that because they're pointing to moral failings. Okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, apologies on the church fathers is they will say some things that they'll call the heretics the most impious so and so, but they mostly are arguing specifics of doctrine. They're not arguing Nestorius is. They're arguing Nestorius is wrong.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right, but that's not what we're talking about. So usually when that argument is made, and I think this is the context that the caller is using, the saints being accused of prelest are a certain category of very modern, mostly female Roman Catholic saints who are saints because they had these visions.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And a lot of these visions that they had, for example, involve sexual situations with Christ.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with that stuff.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Okay. That's what they're calling prelest is those visions.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. So I guess. I guess then the argument is basically that. That their church can't possibly be the true church because they canonized that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, it's sort of a. What's. What's going on with that Roman Catholic, like.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Why are you canonizing someone for that? They're canonized for the vision.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like you're endorsing those visions. That seems weird, right?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, it does. I mean, I will say, I mean, obviously I disagree with the idea that people should be canonized for that kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. But I. But I would also say, like, this actually raises the kind of meta question, is, is it possible for the church to make a mistake in canonizing somebody? And so that's a very narrow set of circumstances under which you might be able to answer that question. But the example I might give, and obviously there's a whole lot of contingency of this for this. The example I might give is there was actually a period where at least one of the metropolises of the Orthodox Church in Greece for a while was celebrating a feast of Thomas Aquinas, which is to say that they had canonized Thomas Aquinas. And there are extant hymns and so forth. You know, Byzantine church services for Thomas Aquinas, who is a Roman Catholic medieval saint. Right. I mean, you can buy a CD of this music, someone's recorded it, and then I don't know the history of it, but clearly they do not anymore venerate him as a saint. And actually, probably a clearer examples, there are cases of the Russian Orthodox church in the 21st century as they were canonizing huge lists of martyrs and stuff under the Soviet yoke, that it was actually discovered that there had been some people who had been canonized who were still alive. And so there was no announcement made. They just sort of quietly disappeared from the lists. Right. So, I mean, these are. This is the reality, right? This is this whether someone thinks that these things are good or not, that those things happened. And you could argue, well, you know, the whole church didn't do this it was just one part, you know, one metropolis or one patriarchate or whatever, but. But that just kind of kicks the can off to the side in some way or another. So is it possible then, that a canonization could be walked back? Well, they have been. They have been. Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

These are. In one case in particular. This is a saint who the Pope was giving plenary indulgences for going and kissing her head.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yes. Right. I mean, again, I'm not agreeing, so

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

they're not walking it back is what I'm saying.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right. What I'm saying is that the idea that there are particularly problematic canonizations that that's occurred, I don't think is a sufficient argument against a church being the true church. Now, you know, now I have all kinds. I mean, I have an entirely long chapter in a book that I wrote. I know of all of all my disagreements with Rome. But, yeah, I mean, certainly the fact of a certain kind of canonization, especially if it lasts for hundreds and hundreds of years, this kind of stuff, and just keeps getting doubled down on and reaffirmed and so forth. Yes, I would say that that constitutes evidence on some, you know, evidence, but I wouldn't say that it's sufficient. And I would also say that to use it as a kind of checkmate papists is lame. You know, like, it's not good. This is not good apologetics.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, it's not like it's the only problem with Roe. No, it's just absolutely big on the list. Right. Widespread prelist.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. Because giving out plenary indulgences to go and kiss that person's skull is also prelest.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Absolutely. Yes. I would certainly say so.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Widespread prelist, you know, when you're comparing Rome and the Orthodox Church and one of them has widespread prelates, I think that is relevant to the.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Absolutely. I definitely think it's relevant.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

But there have definitely been times in Orthodox history when, you know, most of the Church had problems, big problems, you know, like during the Aryan controversy, Classic example. You know, it might have just been a big piece of rhetoric, but the idea that the work, the world awoke and groaned to find itself Aryan meant that most of the Church had a problem at the time, you know, so, yes, I think it's relevant. I think it's evidence, but I don't think it's sufficient. All on it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, may the Pope hold a council and throw all of those people out. But I don't see it happening since he's endorsing the Pope.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I doubt it. Yes. I doubt it. Yep. Yep. So. Well, we all learned something here today, I hope. Or at least I did.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But in answer to the core question, I agree with Father Andrew that pointing to moral failings of saints, as if saints weren't also sinners, is kind of ironic from a Protestant.

[Caller]

Yeah, right, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because their whole thing is that you could be a saint and a sinner at the same time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, exactly. Simul justus et pecator. Right. Or the old blue covered dung hill.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes, yes.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All right. Well, thank you very much for calling.

[Caller]

Thank you very much. I just want to say, instrumental in my conversion. So thank you very much.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Thank God. Thank God. Thanks for listening. All right, well, next we have Zach from Panama City, Florida, I believe. Is that who's next? Yes.

[Caller]

Yep. Here I am.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Here you are. Welcome, Zach.

[Caller]

It's good to be on Fathers, I actually have a question concerning David Bentley Hart's latest book, the Light of Tabor.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, I haven't read it. Have you read it, Father?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No. Yale stopped sending me copies after my reviews. I really did get copies of a few of his books from Yale for free review copies, but I don't think they liked, so they stopped sending them.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Alas.

[Caller]

Alas.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Well, we haven't read it, Zach, so you're going to have to summarize or whatever.

[Caller]

Well, it's actually. It has to do with, like, near the end. It's. It's one of the appendixes or appendices. I don't know what you call it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Appendices.

[Caller]

Yo. Appendices. Okay, there we go. And it's appendicitis concerning appendix. Yeah, I just actually had a couple of those surgeries today. Had to do some of them. I work in the or.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, okay. Oh, you did them. You didn't have. Yeah, okay.

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, I didn't have it myself, but it's the. The appendix is, did Paul have a Theology of nature and Grace? And it's a Note on Romans 11:24. Specifically, he's trying to pin down Paul's actual teachings, and I just have to read a little bit to give context. But he says if I, David Bentley Hart, were pressed to summarize Paul's actual teachings, relying strictly only on the Greek of his letters, I think I would tend to identify his principal point of emphasis not as original guilt or imputed righteousness, in neither of which he believed, but as the overthrow of bad angels. And then he goes on to say these agencies, these archons, these angelic beings whom Paul calls thrones and powers and domination. Dominations and spiritual forces of Evil in the high places are the gods of the nations. Now this is kind of where my question comes in. He says perhaps even the angel of the Lord who presides over Israel. So the letter to the Galatian hints is one of their number.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Oh, he was doing so well. Well, sort of. No, he's been. This isn't new. Obviously.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I don't know the context of what he's doing.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This isn't new. He's gone down this. He's gone down this rabbit trail before. Right.

[Caller]

Okay, okay, okay. I was wondering if there was like some Second Temple type of tradition about the angel of the Lord being one of those.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No.

[Caller]

When angels and.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, he doesn't know anything about Second Temple tradition. Anything. Yeah, he doesn't know anything about Second Temple tradition anything. He honestly doesn't. That's not his field. That's not his area. He hasn't studied it at all. That's one of my critiques of his New Testament translation, which I didn't think was totally worthless. I didn't really rag on it that hard, I thought.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. You actually wrote a review which people can read online if you want to read Father Steven's review of the.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

But yeah, that review didn't cut off the Yale books. It was the universalism book that came after that cut off the flow of the books from Yale. The. But yeah, so he's been onto this for a while. And so part of it, like as Father Andrew understood it, it's like he's picking up on some of the stuff we've talked about with the gods of the nations and stuff. But here's the problem where he goes with that is he has basically adopted the Gnostic reading. That's why he's using the word archons and that's why he's including the angel of the Lord over Israel. So he's interpreting the angel of the Lord as being Saint Michael.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

In this case, not Christ and the angel of the Lord. Right. Being one of these powers is part of the Marcianism that's inherent in all of David Bentley Hart's theological musings that he doesn't like me pointing out.

[Caller]

Interesting.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because he is. The little bit of biblical scholarship that he's relying on is all like 19th century German stuff that is steeped in anti Semitism.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yep.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And people get really mad when I say that. They're like, you're saying David Belly Hart is an anti Semite. No, I'm not. I'm saying he's relying on deeply anti Semitic biblical scholarship and he doesn't understand how that's coloring his innate Marcianism. By the way, when directly accused of Marcionism, his answer to why he's not a Marcionite is that he said he doesn't believe the Old Testament God really existed, and that's why he's not a Marcionite.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, okay.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He thinks the Old Testament God was evil, but he doesn't think he really existed.

[Caller]

Wow.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So I'm sure he'd say something similar about St. Paul. I'm sure he doesn't believe that what St. Paul is saying there is actually true. He's just taking the gnostic reading of St. Paul as being what St. Paul meant.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow.

[Caller]

Okay, okay, okay. Is there like anything in Galatians?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

He's not agnostic either, but he's just.

[Caller]

Huh? Yeah. Is there any. Like he. He says, so the letter to the Galatians hints is. Where. Where. Where would he be getting that in Galatians?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So he's getting that from the.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

The fundamental forces. How is it usually translated? Something like that in English? The elemental forces. The elemental forces of the universe

[Caller]

that

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

are clearly a reference to these kind of beings, the gods of the nations, but also is connected there to Torah observance if you read it in a certain way. So if you read the old. Like I said, he's relying on Old Bible scholarship. If you read that Old Bible scholarship that he's reading, there's a debate as to whether those elemental principles he's talking about are demonic powers like the gods of the nations, or whether he's referring. That's some weird way of referring to the Torah.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so what Hart is doing is he's saying, oh, okay, so that place in Galatians, he's referring to these demonic archons and maybe the Torah. Right. Like maybe also the power over ancient Israel.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so my favorite, Marcion rears his ugly head once again.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We'll call him a Neo Marcionite because, you know, sort of set.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, if you put Neo in front of it, that makes it okay. Just ask William Blade Craig.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right, Right. That's right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That one.

[Caller]

That one line in there in that book kind of threw me off. I had to go listen to the angel of the Lord episode yet again just to figure out what he was trying to talk about. I just. I did not get it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

No. Well, he wasn't talking about the same thing. We were spices to say.

[Caller]

Your guys's interpretation is much better.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. So his methadone. And to be fair, better scholars than he do this same bad tactic. They write something and they're writing outside their own wheelhouse. Right. They're writing outside their own field. So they just go and say, like, well, I'm a scholar in this field. So, like, for him, he's a scholar in philosophy and aesthetics in particular. He's like, but I'm going to talk about the Bible, so I guess I should familiarize myself with some biblical scholarship. So he goes and finds some Ivy League articles from 50, 75 years ago. And it's like, oh, well, I'll just get caught up on the biblical scholarship and just integrate this into my thinking. And they just say ridiculous things. And I won't throw anybody else under the bus in terms of scholars who do that.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's why Father Stephen refused to answer the question about Gandalf and his pre Middle Earth existence.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yes. It's not my field.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And I didn't have time to go listen to a few episodes of Abin Soul and try and fake it out.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Say something heretical.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

That's right. So. All right, well, thanks for calling, Zach.

[Caller]

Thank you, Fathers.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All righty. Okay, we're going to take two more questions. So our next one is Avery, who is calling from Minnesota. Avery, welcome to the Lord Spirits podcast.

[Caller]

Good evening, Fathers. Thanks so much for taking my call.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Good evening. Welcome.

[Caller]

I had a question about the. In the second, second Temple period, or after the exile, when the ten northern tribes were said to have been destroyed, I was curious about mentions in the New Testament of certain individuals who are said to have been from that tribe. So specifically in the book of Luke with the prophetess Anna, when it says that she's from the tribe of Asher.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Caller]

And I also think I read. I read somewhere another one of the New Testament female saints was, I can't remember who right now, but said that she was from the tribe of Issachar. And so I was curious as to what the traditions were at that time. Like, did those people have families that were from those tribes? And like, was that common or is that kind of a anomalous event?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, well, I mean, so destroyed does not mean erased. Like every single person is wiped out. Right. Just like, for instance, you know, if a church gets destroyed, that doesn't mean that there's no stone left standing on another, that there's nothing left. It just means it's smashed. Right. So the 10 northern tribes being destroyed, I mean, they're carried off, but some people are left. There's people that are hanging around, intermarrying with the People that the Assyrians brought in there, and you get the Samaritans. And then, of course, a lot of those tribes, most of those tribes been carried off. They eventually become absorbed into the nations, but it takes several generations for that to happen. But people who are left in Judea, some of them are going to have ancestry, including paternal ancestry, from one of these other tribes for various kinds of reasons. But that doesn't mean that the tribe still exists. It means that there's a person from. From that tribe that's around. You know, a tribe is the. But, no, right. But a tribe is the community. If the community is no longer there, that's not really functioning, they can. They absolutely can be said to have been destroyed or carried off or, you know, whatever. Right.

[Caller]

Yeah, I guess that. That definitely makes sense.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Not hear Father Stephen going so slight, actually.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, all right. All right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That may. That may have been the case. That may have been the case in some cases. So I'm not ruling that out entirely. Right. But we also know, and

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

this is

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

getting into biblical things that people don't read, right. Like first ESDRAs and. Right. And even the canonical Ezra in Greek. So after the exile, after the. The people of Judah, which includes some Benjamites and some Levites, after they return to the land, they have a lot of problems, right. That gets laid out in the Ezra literature and in Nehemiah. And in a few cases, they have people who are dead dwelling in the land who weren't Samaritans, weren't the people who were later called the Samaritans, but other peoples who had been moved there by the Assyrians and stuff, who helped them, like tribal groups that helped them. And when they did that and entered into a covenant with Judah, they became part of the people. They sort of adopted those people into some of the missing tribes. So and Issachar is one of the tribes that specifically mentioned in First Estrus as this particular group. They were. They said, okay, you guys could be part of us. Now you're Issachar, Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Reconstituting them. Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so even though they were Gentiles.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And this is one of the little steps on the way towards gentile inclusion in the sense that the reason the. The Judahites thought they could do that. Right. Because you'd say, well, why didn't they just adopt them into Judah or Benjamin? Right.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

They already had the idea at that point that the people of the nations, right, into which the. The northern tribes had been scattered, were going to reconstitute the Tribes. That idea already existed at the end of the exile.

[Caller]

Many things. The Christians didn't just make it up. Yes, it pre existed that.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, yeah. And so those people, by the time you get. So now we're talking about 500 years later when we get to the New Testament. So some of those folks are descendants of those people who are sort of adopted in that way.

[Caller]

Okay, that's very interesting. Thank you.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yep. Yep. All right. Thank you for calling. We're going to take one more call, and it's Jordan, you're our final caller. And you're calling from the holy land of Virginia, but apparently from Northern Virginia, which is kind of not Virginia.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

This had better be dead.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, gosh.

[Caller]

There's so much pressure.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

I mean, you do live in the shadow of Satan's throne up there, so.

[Caller]

Yeah, I believe it. Anyways, Father's bless.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

God bless you.

[Caller]

Thank you. I just finished last night listening through all Lord of Spirits episodes. I'm primed and I.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Was that a confession about how you spent your time?

[Caller]

Well, yeah, unfortunately. Well, it took a long time. It wasn't like a marathon. It took me a long time. But.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Wow. Did you just brag about how fast you run marathons?

[Caller]

No. No, not at all.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Okay, Okay.

[Caller]

I have a whole load of questions, but I picked one, and if you hate it, you can just tell me. It's. Pick another one. Oh, okay.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

We'll just say next.

[Caller]

But so in one of your episodes, you guys were talking about Saint man in his vision, seeing himself in the heavenly place, seeing himself in the council of God, and also St. Paul saying that we're already seated in the heavenly places with that idea of eternity in mind, why would we not pray to ourselves? Or assuming, like, we can't know that we're saved, and that's why we wouldn't for ourselves. What about, like, somebody like St. John? Why wouldn't he pray to himself in eternity? And a corollary to that is, if with Christ's body being resurrected and him being eternal, existing outside of time, and therefore being able to walk in the garden of Eden, or in a way, having always existed in the incarnate body, then wouldn't that imply that at least with reference to some point in time, the 30 years that he existed on earth, that Christ had two bodies?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Caller]

Underwhelming, wobbly question.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

You are doing so well, but you put it in the form of a question. So it's like Jeopardy. Um, well, I mean, you shouldn't pray to yourself. We'll just start that as our baseline. I mean, it's praying to.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

What would be the point of that?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Like, what would you do for yourself

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

that you couldn't already do for yourself?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. I mean, there's only one you, right? You are you. You are you. So praying to yourself implies that you're. There's a you and there's a not you that you're talking to. You know, it's. It's still just one person. So it's not like, oh, there's me in another part of the timeline. It's still you. I don't know. This is a little wibbly wobbly timey wimey. But of course, the whole question is kind of that way, you know? I know. I feel like maybe some of the answer to this is some of the stuff that you talked about the resurrection when you had that whole conversation on stage with a certain Canadian psychologist. Do you think I'm tracking correctly here, Father?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Well, so, yeah, part of it is how we're envisioning time, and part of it is we can't help it.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. St. John and Damascus talks about this like, we. We are finite beings in time and space. We. That's the only way we can think about things. Right? But it's like. It's like my least favorite trope in time travel stories, right, that. Where you have these time travel stories that are badly written, where you have some action going on in the past and some action going on in the future. Right. And to build dramatic tension, they're somehow happening at the same time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Like, oh, no, I need the person in the future to push the button. When will you push the button?

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And you're like, you're in the past.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right?

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Because it's treating it as if you have these two. Like something is happening at the same time in the past of the the future. Even though that's totally different.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

The past and the future different are simply the different spaces in the different places. Right, right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And so that's part of the problem with the question, right? And like I said, you can't help doing this because this is how we think. But it's like, okay, Christ is, you know, walking from Capernaum to Bethsaida in 30 A.D. right, at the same time he's enthroned in heaven. Well, no, not. Not at the same time.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Not the same time.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right.

[Caller]

Like,

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

see what I'm saying? Right? Like, we can't help but think that way. But it. It's not at the same time. Like, heaven is not like this other place in a parallel time track.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

So even though there is this weird, trippy thing where St. John kind of meets St. John in a vision.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Or kind of sees himself in a vision, glorified. Right. Sees his glorified self in a vision, that doesn't mean that, like, right now, at the same time that I'm here praying, there is a Father Stephen at the same time in another place.

[Caller]

Right.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You see what I'm saying? Who's glorified, who's also praying or suffering in hell or whatever, you know, future B is doing. Right. You see what I'm saying?

[Caller]

Sorry.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. So it doesn't seem like. Go, no, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, Jordan.

[Caller]

Well, I say it kind of makes it seem like the transcendence problem, that if that's the case, and we're saying that we can't say that he's at the same time and thrown in Heaven because then we're applying concepts of time to that, then how do we say that the Divine Liturgy is participating in eternity? How is eternity making contact at all with time or with us in time? Like what? You know, it doesn't seem like there's an unconnectable gap there.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

We're entering into eternity by being brought up into eternity the way Isaiah was, the way St. John was, the way Ezekiel was.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

And, you know, the incarnation of the Son of God breaks down this division. Right. Between eternity and time, between God and man, because he is all, you know, he is those things all at once.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah. Like, we can't avoid thinking about it as, like, oh, well, the angels and saints are worshiping God in heaven right now. And when I go and do that, oh, we're all doing it together. Right. That's how we have to think about it, because we're finite beings and we're limited in what we can understand.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

It's not wrong as far as it goes.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Right. But that's not really capturing the reality of it. Right. Because we can't fully comprehend the reality of it, of the heaven part, the earth part we could comprehend. The heaven part is. Is the part that we can't fully comprehend. And so we have to sort of turn that into a version of the earthly part that we can understand in order to even talk about it. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Yeah. Does that help at least somewhat? I know this is kind of tough stuff.

[Caller]

Yeah. No, yeah, I think. I think that makes sense. I mean. Well, I mean, we just. We know it the best we can, and we have good reasons for believing the things we believe, but can't comprehend that extent of it, I guess.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

Yeah, exactly. There are certain things where there is mystery and you can't dispel that mystery and understand it. You just have to point at it. Yeah.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

All right. Well, thank you very much for calling, Jordan. And that's our. Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. That's our final caller. See, we went for almost three hours, Father Stephen. So there you go. Everybody got.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

That's fair to Midland.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Big, big, full three halves of variance. That's true. But that's our show for today. Thank you very much for tuning in and listening, everybody. If you didn't happen to get through to us live, we'd still like to hear from you. You can email us at lordofspirits and ancientfaith.com you can send us a message to our Facebook page. You can also leave us a voicemail speakpipe.com lordofspirits and if you have basic questions about Orthodox Christianity or you need help to find a parish, you can go to orthodoxintro.org and join us for

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

our live broadcasts on the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of the month at. Even though Father Andrew hasn't corrected it yet. 5pm Eastern.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Oh, it is correct. 6pm Eastern. So you're trying to make it even earlier.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

3pm Pacific.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Let's do it.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

No, no, no.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

If you're on Facebook, you can follow our page, you can join our discussion group, leave us a rating, review, whatever, and then also make sure you share this show with a friend.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

And finally, be sure to go to ancient faith.com stroke support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. My global position system is vocally addressed. They say the Nile used to run for east to west.

[Father Stephen DeYoung]

Thank you, good night and may God bless you all.

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

You've been listening to the Lord of Spirits with Orthodox Christian priests, Father Andrew, Stephen Damick and Father Stephen DeYoung. A listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith raised and I beheld and I heard the voice of many angels round about

[Caller]

the throne and the beasts and the

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

elders, and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands,

[Caller]

saying with a loud voice, worthy is

[Father Andrew Stephen Damick]

the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and Blessing. Revelation chapter 5, verses 11 through 12.