Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits — "Scarecrows Among Cucumbers"

Date: September 29, 2023

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young

Podcast: Ancient Faith Ministries

Episode Overview

This episode is the first in a two-part series exploring the concepts of idolatry and iconography within Orthodox Christian tradition. The focus here is on what idolatry is—both in its ancient context and as a spiritual reality still present today. The hosts seek to clarify misunderstandings, especially among listeners from Protestant backgrounds, distinguishing true idolatry from practices such as icon veneration, and delving into how idolatry manifests historically, biblically, philosophically, and even in modern Christian life.

“Tonight we’re talking idolatry, and next time we’re talking iconography, but here’s the burning question that I know even Calvinists sometimes wonder about: Is American Idol real idolatry?”
— Fr. Andrew, 02:40

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Common Confusion: Idolatry vs. Iconography

• Many Protestants equate Orthodox icon veneration with idolatry, but the hosts insist these are fundamentally different phenomena, sharing only “images and religion” as attributes.
  • “There are ... much more major differences in how these roles are completely conceived of. And the same is true ... about idolatry and iconography, because there’s also pagan iconography.” — Fr. Stephen, 06:15
• The episode intends to separate the two by digging into their history, use, and meaning in both pagan and Christian settings.
• Notable Exchange:
  Fr. Andrew: “If you venerate just a little too much. Did you do an idolatry?”
  Fr. Stephen: “No.” (02:20)

2. What Is Idolatry? Its Origins and Universal Appeal

• Idolatry is universal among human cultures; idols appear everywhere in archaeological records.
  • The impulse toward idols is part of “natural” human religiosity—hence, Israel needed explicit commandments against it (12:14).
• Early worship began at “places of contact” with the spiritual: distinctive trees, stones, groves—not always fashioned images.
• Over time, unworked objects were shaped into phallic poles (Asherah poles), animals, then theriomorphic (animal-human) figures, and finally purely human images often modeled on deified rulers.
  • “The image encapsulates the concept of this spirit or deity in a way that limits it.” — Fr. Stephen, 31:44

Function of Idols

• To localize the deity: making spiritual forces accessible and containable in one place;

• To create a “handle” for humans to attempt to control or leverage spiritual power (e.g., fertility, rain);

• Idols are cared for as “bodies” of gods—dressed, fed, worshipped, similar to treating a king.

  “But ultimately what an idol is within paganism is a sort of handle or a grip.” — Fr. Stephen, 31:38
  “If Baal has the power to send rains ... how come if you tip him over, he can’t stand back up?” — Fr. Stephen, 30:14

3. Jewish/Biblical Critique of Idolatry

• The OT’s main critique: idols are powerless; humans make and maintain their “gods,” which is self-contradictory.

• True idolatry is not just the image, but the attempt to control spiritual power through ritual.

• The Incarnation (God becoming man in Christ) is a “radical inversion” of idolatry—it is God elevating humanity, not humans reducing the divine.

  “God becoming man is nothing like ancient idolatry ... It’s the opposite.” — Fr. Stephen, 40:01

4. Philosophical Paganism and the Limits of Human Conceptions

• Contrary to modern projections, Greek philosophers like Plato did not transcend paganism but re-cast it (e.g., his “Forms” as deified abstract principles) and maintained the same core religious structures.
  • “Plato’s forms are just the Greek gods, with all the human qualities stripped away.” — Fr. Stephen, 45:23

5. Israel’s Own Idolatry: A Biblical Survey

• Idolatry in Israel is ubiquitous; the OT never depicts a “pure” long period without it.
• The two main forms:
  1. Idolatry directed to Yahweh (e.g., the golden calf: “This is Yahweh, your God;” see Exodus).
  2. Idolatry of foreign gods alongside Yahweh (e.g., Baal, Asherah, Chemosh, Molech).
• Examples: worship at high places, orgiastic rituals, golden calves under Jeroboam, integrating pagan feasts/practices, even human sacrifice (Jephthah).
• Notable Quotes:
  • “You’re hard pressed to find any period in Israel’s history where, according to the Bible, they were even monolatrous, let alone monotheistic.” — Fr. Stephen, 69:14

6. Idolatry in Christian Contexts

• New Testament & Early Church:
  Literal idolatry was still all around—the early Christians had to draw sharp boundaries (see 1 Corinthians, 1 John).
  Idolatry is regularly linked with sexual immorality due to the orgiastic nature of ancient pagan worship.

  • “A lot of what St. Paul talks about ... there’s a reason he keeps vacillating … between don’t participate in idolatry and don’t participate in sexual immorality … because these are deeply linked.” — Fr. Stephen, 132:35

• The Death of Paganism:
  By the fourth century, paganism “died on the vine,” as Christianity spread and the oracles “ceased working.” (139:44)

• Christianized Idolatry ("Conceptual Idolatry"):

  • Post-literal paganism, Christians theologized idolatry as any attempt to seize control over their world—especially through greed, covetousness, or even by conceptualizing God in limited ways.

    • “St. Paul identifies covetousness ... basically greed ... as idolatry.” — Fr. Stephen, 144:03

  • Quoting Colossians 3:5, Ephesians 5:5:

    “Covetousness … is idolatry.”
    “Everyone who is sexually immoral or impure or who is covetous … that is an idolater …”
    (143:28)

  • Greed and sexual immorality follow the same spiritual logic as pagan idolatry: the idol is something we can “handle” to control the unmanageable parts of existence.

  • Even religious concepts—justice, love, etc—can become idols if they're delimited, weaponized, or used as a means of control.

    • “A concept is a mental shaping and a mental reduction of the justice of God into this image ... that then allows it to be manipulated ...” — Fr. Stephen, 158:03

7. Modern Forms of Idolatry

• The State/Nationalism:
  • Modern societies transfer religious reverence to the state or nation; icons, rituals, and even language mirror religion.
    • e.g., US Capitol iconography, “apotheosis” of Washington (167:47)
• War:
  • War is presented as redemptive; “the state being perpetually at war and by war and threat of war dominating the world ... now we’re safe,” and soldiers' deaths are likened to Christ’s.
• Sexuality:
  • Sexual identity and experience become new “handles” for reality, with increasingly transgressive, quasi-religious experiences.
• Mammon/The Economy:
  • The veneration and seeking of wealth and economic "security" takes on the trappings of religious devotion.
    • “God named the economy. We must all make sacrifices for the economy ...” — Fr. Stephen, 176:01
• Idolatry in the Church:
  • Even ecclesiastical life, church history, liturgy, or authority can be idolized if used as a means of control or for self-aggrandizement, rather than leading to Christ and the life of the Church as the Body of Christ (177:04ff).

8. Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Humor on “Doing an Idolatry”:

  Fr. Andrew: “If you venerate just a little too much. Did you do an idolatry?”
  Fr. Stephen: “No.” (02:20)

• On American Idol & Kelly Clarkson:

  Fr. Stephen: “Because Kelly Clarkson’s career is kind of inexplicable otherwise. Huh.” (03:03)

• On the Modern Attitude towards Monotheism:

  “You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting idolatry in the Old Testament.” — Fr. Stephen, 69:07

• On Platonic Paganism:

  “Plato really was a pagan...he just had what he saw as a more enlightened form of paganism.” — Fr. Stephen, 46:32

• On The Church as Idol:

  “It is still possible to treat the church as an idol. Because what happens is people have a concept of the church that they are worshiping, a concept ... used as a kind of handle on the world.” — Fr. Andrew, 177:04

Listener Questions Highlights

• On Worship vs. Veneration (73:07–80:28):
  • Described technical vs. common usage of 'worship' and 'veneration.'
  • Bowing or showing respect is not inherently idolatry; idolatry is about ritual and intent (i.e., controlling the divine).
• On Technology as Idolatry (147:30–155:13):
  • Question: Is building complex technology (like AI) akin to idolatry?
  • Answer: This can be idolatrous when used as a manipulative “handle” on the world, but technology itself isn’t evil—it's idolatrous when it becomes a source of control, identity, or meaning outside of God.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:40] — The “American Idol” joke; establishing the two-part series.
• [06:15] — Differentiating idolatry and iconography.
• [13:01] — Roots of idolatry in natural sacred spaces.
• [22:50] — Idols as a method for localizing or “containing” deities.
• [31:06] — The biblical critique: idols’ powerlessness, satire in scripture.
• [40:01] — Incarnation as the opposite of idolatry.
• [52:25] — How pagan religion differs from Christian faith; why “religion” is tricky to define.
• [69:07] — Survey of Israel’s ongoing idolatry; the “two categories.”
• [81:14] — Examples: Golden calf (Exodus), Jephthah’s sacrifice, Gideon, Saulomon, Josiah.
• [132:35] — Idolatry and sexual immorality linked in Christian writings.
• [143:28] — St. Paul’s teaching: greed/covetousness is idolatry (Col 3:5, Eph 5:5).
• [167:10] — Nationalism as modern idolatry.
• [177:04] — Idolatry within the church—when even the church or its elements are misused as "handles" for control.

Concluding Messages

Fr. Andrew (183:39):

"Where you see people being made saints, made to live the way that Christ lived and to be the way that Christ is, then it's being done right. But when you see [the church] used to destroy other people ... that's when it's about control, right? So flee from idols. Love Christ above all. ... following the commandments is the foundation for all of the rest of orthodox tradition."

Fr. Stephen (185:07):

"What all of those kind of idolatrous calculations have in common is that they leave out God. ... They leave out his activity in the world. ... Because God is real. ... We don't have to be afraid. We don't have to worry. We can live now."

Summary Table: Idolatry Across Contexts

| Paganism | Ancient Israel | Christianity | Modern/Conceptual | |----------|---------------|--------------|-------------------| | Ritual, images to localize/control the divine | Golden calf, dual worship, orgies, syncretism | Linked to sexual immorality, forbidden as literal and as "covetousness", false concepts of God | Veneration of the state, war, sex, economy, the Church (!), technology |

Final Takeaways

• Idolatry is not just about images, but the attempt to control, grasp, or restrict spiritual realities—whether through ritual, concept, or even abstraction.
• The command to “flee from idols” is not obsolete: anything, even religious concepts or community, can become an idol if they become tools for self-serving control or replace the worship and trust that belong to God alone.
• Christian life is intended to transcend idolatry not through mere avoidance of images, but through living communion with God—in faith, freedom, and love, not manipulation.

For more depth (and a lot of wit), listen to the full episode and stay tuned for part two, focusing on iconography!