The Lord of Spirits

Episode: The Ascension of Isaiah and the Assumption of Moses

Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Date: June 14, 2024
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition

Episode Overview

In this rich and sprawling discussion, Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen explore two pivotal Second Temple Jewish texts: the Ascension of Isaiah and the Assumption of Moses. These texts inhabit the blurry borderland between late Jewish and early Christian apocalyptic thought, offering deep insight into how the ancient faithful understood the mysteries of heaven, holy people, and the overlap between the seen and unseen worlds. The fathers also examine how these traditions influenced the understanding of figures such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the Theotokos (Virgin Mary), and how these ancient traditions continue to inform Orthodox theology and liturgy today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ascension vs. Assumption: Definitions & Distinctions

[09:12–11:11]

• Ascension: A living person is bodily taken up into heaven—exemplified by Enoch and Elijah.
  • “Enoch and Elijah...are still alive, bodily taken up into heaven.” (Fr. Stephen, 10:26)
• Assumption: Someone dies, and then their body is taken up into heaven—ultimately reuniting body and soul ahead of the general resurrection; e.g., Moses and the Virgin Mary.
  • “An assumption is sort of an early resurrection, meaning their body…is reunited with their soul in advance of the general bodily resurrection.” (Fr. Stephen, 10:40)

2. Biblical and Second Temple Context

[11:12–21:06]

• Enoch (Genesis) and Elijah (2 Kings) serve as the foundations for traditions about holy ascension.
• Moses' death (Deuteronomy 34) is less obviously ambiguous, but interpreted as bodily assumption in later Jewish tradition.
  • “God took his body, meaning he took it into heaven.” (Fr. Stephen, 28:10)

3. Apocalyptic Literature: Visions, Heaven, and Prophets

[13:25–18:23]

• Ascents are linked to apocalyptic visions: “Here's a person being taken up into heaven…what did you see while you were there?” (Fr. Andrew, 13:31)
• Role of Enoch and Elijah in later apocalyptic/prophetic literature—seen as messengers or even angelic beings.

4. The Devil, Death, and the Resurrection

[34:30–42:42]

• Contest over Moses’ body between Michael and the Devil (Jude 9) is about the bodily resurrection, not the soul.
• “The devil is the eater of the dead… the devil is trying to claim Moses’ body and corrupt it.” (Fr. Stephen, 37:45)
• Uncorrupted relics of saints serve as evidence of this resurrection.

5. Assumption of the Theotokos: Orthodox and Catholic Differences

[44:00–69:20]

• Orthodox: Dormition (falling asleep/death) and then assumption of the Virgin Mary’s body, following the Mosaic model.
• Roman Catholicism: Dogmatized “Assumption of Mary” (1950) includes ambiguity—she "may or may not have died."
• Substantial theological divergence over immaculate conception and the nature of Mary’s humanity and death.
• “We’re not denying the title ‘Queen of Heaven’ for the Theotokos… but we think there’s something fundamentally different going on.” (Fr. Stephen, 67:55)

6. Dogma, Tradition, and the Question of Authority

[69:41–78:40]

• Orthodox vs. Roman Catholic dogma: Orthodox do not make Dormition/Assumption of Mary a “de fide” dogma but regard these as received tradition.
• Dangers of minimalism in belief highlighted: “This kind of argumentation slides in only one direction: fewer and fewer things get important with each generation.” (Fr. Stephen, 75:09)

7. The Ascension of Isaiah: Contents & Composition

[89:05–137:52]

• Three sections: Martyrdom of Isaiah (Jewish), Vision/Ascension (Christian Apocalyptic), Testament of Hezekiah (Christian).
• Key elements in Christian sections:
  • Early, explicit Trinitarian language and schema—remarkable for its first-century provenance.
  • “You see some detail and some depth into the doctrine of the Trinity as it will be… at the Council of Nicaea.” (Fr. Stephen, 125:05)
• New Garments, Thrones, and Crowns for saints—depicting resurrection and glorified humanity.
• Humans replace fallen angels—an ancient Jewish-Christian notion.

8. The Assumption of Moses: A Testament and a Missing Piece

[147:29–176:33]

• Version survives as a Latin palimpsest; possibly only 2/3 complete.
• Literary Testament: Moses’ final words to Joshua, recounting history up to 1st c. BCE/CE.
• Evidence of anticipation of bodily resurrection and fierce critique of corrupt priesthood (possibly Sadducean).
• The final prophecy paints an eschatological vision of God’s victory and the glorification of the righteous (echoing Psalm 82 and Daniel).

9. Underlying Theme: The Exaltation of Human Nature

[176:33–186:51]

• Resurrected, glorified humanity—not merely “going to heaven” as disembodied souls, but joining the heavenly council, “equal to the angels.”
• “The hope of the resurrection is not the key vector of the way people think about the afterlife...it is actually going to eventually happen for the righteous.” (Fr. Andrew, 179:30)
• The ultimate promise is the transfiguration of the whole person, body and soul.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“An assumption is sort of an early resurrection—meaning their body, since it’s been taken up, is reunited with their soul in advance of the general bodily resurrection.”
— Fr. Stephen, [10:40]

“Apocalyptic does not mean end of the world per se, it just means a revelation. Something is revealed, something is unveiled.”
— Fr. Stephen, [13:50]

“The devil is the eater of the dead… this is talking about the devil as the one who corrupts the dead bodies—in contrast to God, who preserves them.”
— Fr. Stephen, [37:48]

“The Dormition icon is very clear that she (the Theotokos) physically dies.”
— Fr. Andrew, [66:07]

“There’s a core element of Nicene Trinitarianism here in a Jewish Christian work in the first century… the Ascension of Isaiah, incontrovertibly.”
— Fr. Stephen, [135:17]

“The core of it is that it’s not a question of what you believe, it’s a question of WHO you believe.”
— Fr. Stephen, [81:28]

“Assumption into heaven is not about a change of place… this is about, as St. Paul says, being caught up to be with Christ in the clouds—which doesn’t mean hovering rapture-style into the air.”
— Fr. Andrew, [181:44]

“Part of what we submit to... is that when people say ‘I agree with a lot of stuff of the Orthodox Church but I’d have to pretend I believe other things,’ that’s not what the Orthodox Church calls you to do… It calls you to not make that decision for yourself—it’s about faithfulness.”
— Fr. Stephen, [85:15]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Opening banter, distinctions between ascension & assumption| 01:04–11:12 | | Apocalyptic visions & functions in Second Temple literature| 12:11–18:23 | | Biblical witnesses to ascension & assumption | 19:57–40:00 | | Devil, death, relics, and resurrection | 34:30–42:42 | | Dormition vs. Assumption of Mary (Orthodox/Catholic) | 44:00–69:20 | | Dogma, tradition, & authority in Christian life | 69:41–78:40 | | [Break/Ad] | 86:29–88:10 | | The Ascension of Isaiah: structure, theology, Trinitarianism| 89:05–137:52| | The Assumption (Testament) of Moses: composition & themes| 147:29–176:33| | Final reflections: Resurrection, exaltation, orthodoxy | 176:34–end |

Tone & Style

This episode blends scholarly rigor with levity, deep scriptural exegesis with personal and pastoral insight. The hosts' affection for both serious theology and comic books, as well as their willingness to challenge dearly held positions across confessional lines, contribute to a lively and engaging (often humorous) discussion. They gently rib one another and their respective audiences, but always in service of moving listeners deeper into the mystery of God’s work in creation—seen and unseen.

For Further Listening

• Enoch, Elijah, and Divine Council episodes: Explore more on apocalyptic literature and the heavenly council.
• Dormition of the Theotokos episode: Deep dive into Orthodox Mariology.
• Relics and Resurrection episode: More on bodily resurrection and Orthodox relics.

This summary is intended as a thorough guide and primer for those who wish to understand the episode’s flow, core theology, and scriptural engagement without listening to the full three hours. For scriptural citations, mystical digressions, and delightful Marvel/X-Men banter, the full episode remains highly recommended.