The Lord of Spirits – "The Saints Will Judge the World"

Podcast: The Lord of Spirits
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young (Ancient Faith Ministries)
Date: December 29, 2023
Description: Exploring the seen and unseen world in Orthodox Christian tradition, this episode focuses on the role of patron saints, the biblical and historical basis for their veneration, and how humans come to “judge the world” alongside Christ.

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, the hosts tackle the Orthodox Christian understanding of patron saints and their cosmic role, especially given Protestant objections that this practice is “unbiblical” or reminiscent of paganism. They trace the biblical, Second Temple Jewish, and patristic foundations for the veneration of saints, demonstrate how human beings are called to share in the spiritual administration of creation, and ultimately how the saints “judge the world” alongside Christ. The show blends scriptural exegesis, patristic citations, and practical reflections, concluding with a moving encouragement to enact real spiritual change in daily life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Patron Saints? Setting the Stage

[05:25]
Patron saints are often misunderstood—sometimes compared to polytheism or seen as unbiblical. The hosts immediately address:

• Is there a scriptural or historical basis for patron saints?
• Are Orthodox practices just veiled paganism, or is there a deeper foundation?
  Fr. Stephen DeYoung dismisses the paganism charge outright, promising to synthesize past discussions for clarity.

2. Scriptural Authority & the Shape of Tradition

[07:18–15:00]
The hosts deconstruct the “where is this in the Bible?” objection:

• Scriptures reflect, not codify, early Church practice (see also the Trinity not being explicitly spelled out).
• Biblical texts didn’t spring from nothing; Church practices often predate their explicit mentions in Scripture.
• Early Christian and Jewish liturgical life, like Temple and synagogue worship, had detailed traditions not all found in the text.

Quote:

"To assume that those kind of historic practices were 'based on' ... the New Testament text... [is] not a coherent way of thinking about it." — Fr. Stephen [09:27]

3. What Does “Saint” Mean?

[16:09]
A deep dive into the language:

• “Saint” = “holy one” (Greek: ἅγιος, hagios; Hebrew: kadosh/kedoshim; Latin: sanctus)
• It's an adjective, not a different species—a descriptor whether applied to angels, humans, or God.
• In the Old Testament, “holy ones” refers predominantly to angelic beings (“the council of the gods”).

Quote:

"Holy here is an adjective... It doesn't mean that, okay, this is a holy man so he is like a different species... It's a descriptor." — Fr. Stephen [20:24]

4. The Divine Council – Not Polytheism but God’s Administration

[26:07–38:58]

• The Bible and Second Temple Jewish literature comfortably use plural “gods” (elohim/theoi) for angelic powers, not just for God or pagan deities.
• The word “gods”—in ancient context—means “rulers”; God is the “God of gods,” the ultimate King above all.
• Angelic beings (the “council of gods”) are not independent actors—they administer divine order but are not due worship.

Quote:

“God, capital G... is the God whom the gods, lowercase g, worship. That's part of the argument against paganism... shouldn't you be worshiping the one who they worship?” — Fr. Stephen [48:06–48:20]

5. Patronage, Angelic Administration, and Human Participation

[62:26–64:57]

• God appoints spiritual beings to oversee creation: elements of nature (sun, moon, stars), peoples/nations, and individual persons (guardian angels).
• Not out of necessity, but love—to share divine life, God delegates stewardship.

6. What Went Wrong – The “Fall” of Angelic Powers

[82:26–95:02]
In the episode’s second half, the conversation moves to the “falls” of the angels:

• “Falling” is not just change of location or morality, but a shift in function/relationship—angelic beings cease shepherding humanity toward God, and through spiritual participation, shepherd them toward evil.
• This “fall” creates “vacancies” in the cosmic order, which are not just bureaucratic but existential changes in the spiritual ecosystem.

7. The Human Destiny – Filling the Vacancies, Becoming Spirits

[108:18–114:03]

• Christ, in judging the fallen gods (Psalm 82), reclaims authority and “reshuffles” stewardship to humankind.
• The apostles and the righteous are promised positions of cosmic governance alongside Christ, sharing in “the council of the gods.”
• The saints “judge the world,” becoming new governors of creation, “equal to the angels” (Luke 20:36) and seated on thrones in the divine council.

Quote:

“The idea of sainthood as it's understood within the church... is just part and parcel of this understanding of redemption... You can't sort of follow us up to here and then now say, ‘oh, but human saints in glory don't do any of those things.’” — Fr. Stephen [111:48]

8. What Does It Mean to Be a Spirit? Saints and Koinonia

[129:20–155:38]
The hosts explain “spirit” as a participatory, relational phenomenon—"koinonia" (κοινωνία, deep participation or communion).

• Spirits “animate” or “guide” peoples, places, individuals—not as bureaucrats, nor by sheer force, but via synergy (alignment of wills).
• Christian tradition (“holy tradition”) is the life of the Holy Spirit incarnate as history, not mere rules, but collective synergy with God.
• This synergy is not top-down (forced possession), nor bottom-up (mere collective human will), but a “both/and” reality—an active alignment and participation.

Quote:

"It’s actual synergy... not just top-down... not just bottom-up... but going in both directions." — Fr. Stephen [153:59]

9. Practical Spiritual Warfare: Changing the Spirit of a Person, Place, or Group

[183:31–190:01]
Fr. Stephen offers stirring practical applications:

• Banishing destructive “spirits” and realigning with God happens at the level of individuals, families, parishes, and neighborhoods.
• This spiritual work is enacted in small, repeated acts of love, charity, and community—mowing a neighbor’s lawn, sharing meals, being kind, bringing people together.
• Change is gradual and accumulative; we become what we do, and in so doing, the saints work alongside us.

Quote:

"As we work to follow the angels and the saints... by doing the works of God in the lives of other people... change starts to happen... and things start to change a little more... and people and places and groups of people can be transformed this way. It’s happened before in the world through Christianity. It can happen again in our day." — Fr. Stephen [189:07–190:01]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Difference between Human Saints and Angels:
  "You will sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Fr. Stephen referencing Jesus’ words; [109:36])
• On Biblical Comfort with a Crowded Spiritual World:
  "Jewish communities and Jewish writers are completely comfortable talking about gods in the plural... using that term to refer to angelic beings of both good and bad sorts." (Fr. Stephen [35:12])
• On Human Beings’ Ultimate Vocation:
  "The destiny of those people is going to be the destiny of Abraham—to become like the stars of heaven." (Fr. Stephen [109:06])
• On the Meaning of Salvation:
  "To be saved means to be among those whom the scripture says 'the saints will judge the world'... Salvation itself is about becoming part of the divine council." (Fr. Andrew [177:52])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:25] – Addressing common Protestant objections to patron saints
• [07:18–15:00] – The nature of biblical authority and tradition
• [16:09] – What does “saint” really mean?
• [26:07–38:58] – The divine council, “gods,” and ancient cosmology
• [62:26–64:57] – God’s administration: delegate angels, not bureaucratic necessity
• [82:26–95:02] – The “fall” of angelic beings and the shape of cosmic evil
• [108:18–114:03] – Saints as cosmic co-rulers with Christ (“judging the world”)
• [129:20–155:38] – What is a spirit? Koinonia, synergy, tradition, and existence
• [183:31–190:01] – Spiritual warfare: how to change the spirit of your life, family, parish, or neighborhood through ordinary acts

Tone and Style

The episode is scholarly yet accessible, frequently humorous, and deeply pastoral. Fr. Stephen offers “rants” with wit, while Fr. Andrew’s quips keep things moving. Both display deep respect for the genuine struggles of listeners wrestling with questions of faith and tradition, as well as empathy for those coming from other Christian backgrounds or outside Christianity altogether.

Conclusion

Main Takeaways:

• The veneration and “patronage” of saints is not an add-on or late development, but the cosmic destiny of redeemed humankind according to Orthodox Christian tradition.
• Saints are not “demigods,” but glorified humans who fulfill the original vocational calling of both angels and humanity: to steward creation in loving synergy with God.
• Spiritual transformation happens in real, practical ways—through alignment of will, action, and love in community, person by person, place by place.

Final Exhortation:
If you want to enact real spiritual change—over yourself, your family, your church, your world—start with small, daily acts of alignment with Christ and the saints. The cosmos changes one act of love at a time.

For further exploration:

• Book: Religion of the Apostles by Fr. Stephen De Young (esp. on “baptism for the dead” and patronage)
• The Book of Jubilees & Philo’s Special Laws (for background on Second Temple angelology/cosmology)
• Psalm 82 (81 LXX), Luke 20:36, Matthew 28:18–20, and Revelation 4–5

Share this episode with a friend—“someone who’ll love it and benefit from it” [192:19].