Podcast Summary: The Lord of Spirits – "Unctuous"

Date: February 24, 2023
Hosts: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick & Fr. Stephen De Young
Produced by: Ancient Faith Ministries
Theme: The Seen and Unseen World in Orthodox Christian Tradition – Holy Unction, Healing, and the Human Person

Episode Overview

In this episode, Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen examine the Orthodox Christian sacrament of Holy Unction (the Anointing of the Sick), exploring its spiritual, theological, and scriptural underpinnings. Their conversation weaves together ancient and modern perspectives on the nature of the human soul and body, disease as a spiritual reality, the place of miraculous healing, and the meaning of identity and personhood. The episode begins with an extended reflection on the legacy of scholar Dr. Michael Heiser and then deep dives into the philosophical and biblical context for healing and unction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering Dr. Michael Heiser (05:26 – 09:57)

• Dr. Michael Heiser's Scholarship: Known for his work on the Old Testament and spiritual worldview, respected for his commitment to "peer review, community of scholars, and hashing things out" ([07:17], DeYoung).
• Clarifying Relationship: Hosts haven't spoken of Heiser much on-air, not out of disregard, but because they "prefer to be ruthless with ideas and compassionate with people" ([06:41], DeYoung).
• Legacy & Prayers: "Memory eternal to servant of God, Michael... my prayers at least will continue to be with his family and with him" ([09:35], DeYoung).

2. What Is a Human Person? Soul, Body, and Identity (12:00 – 41:03)

Genesis 2:7 as Foundation

• Scripture: "The Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature" ([12:42], Damick).
• Soul Defined: The soul is not "a glowing orb that rises out of your chest when you die" ([14:40], Damick) but is "the life of the living thing" ([15:06], DeYoung).
• Types of Souls: All living things have souls; animals and trees do—but their souls are not identical to humans ([15:49], Damick; [15:53], DeYoung).

Distinguishing Soul and Spirit

• These aren't always distinguished in patristic or biblical language; "just because you make a distinction in speech, that doesn't mean there's an actual distinction" ([19:22], DeYoung).
• The distinction is often between the general life-force (soul) and "a higher organizing principle" (spirit), but they are not two separate "things" ([20:36], DeYoung).

Platonism, Calvinism, and Pre-existing Identity

• Critique of Platonic thought—"the soul is the self, the soul is the person, the soul is the identity" ([24:52], DeYoung).
• Critique of Calvinistic determinism: "within the divine decree in the eternal mind of God... everything they're going to do, whether they're elect... is reality before they come into being" ([27:28], DeYoung).
• These philosophies lead to the idea that "life on earth just plays out the identity of the soul that already exists"—but Orthodox tradition rejects this ([28:51], DeYoung).

Human Person = Embodied Soul

• "Your body is more related to your identity than your soul is" ([35:09], DeYoung).
• "Human souls are more like each other than human bodies are" ([35:15], DeYoung).
• Relics have spiritual significance because "those pieces are that person" ([43:01], Damick).
• The importance of bodily resurrection: "For you to be you, for you to live forever, you have to be back in your body. Otherwise it wouldn't be you" ([46:02], DeYoung).

Memorable Quotes:

• "If you weren't you, you wouldn't be you." ([32:58], DeYoung)
• "Wherever you go, there you are." ([32:40], Damick)

3. Healing in Scripture: Plague, Demons, & Miracles (58:00 – 83:18)

Early Israelite View: Disease as a Demonic Plague

• Plague Personified: Disease is "a demonic force out there in the world" named Reshef, appearing throughout ancient Near East cultures ([63:00], DeYoung).
• Scriptural Examples:
  • Moses' hand becoming leprous (Exodus 4) symbolizes God's power over plague ([60:11], DeYoung).
  • Deuteronomy 32:23-24 and Psalm 78:48 refer to Reshef as plague or thunderbolts (see [68:35], Damick).
  • Revelation's Four Horsemen, with Pestilence depicted with a bow—"Reshef" imagery ([74:04], DeYoung).
• God's Sovereignty: "It's not denying that this force exists... but placing this force under the control of Yahweh." ([71:42], DeYoung).
• Judgment as Withdrawal of Protection: In Revelation, judgment means "God stops protecting them" and "lets things go" ([75:28], DeYoung).

Individual Healings & the Prophets

• Shift by Second Temple period; prophets Elijah and Elisha heal individuals (raising the dead, curing leprosy) ([77:01], Damick), focusing on the "effects of illness... on the body of a person" ([78:45], DeYoung).
• Sin and Disease Paralleled: "Sin is talked about like disease, disease is talked about like sin" ([83:18], DeYoung).

Christ’s Healings:

• Explicit connection: "Christ in his healings... explicitly connects the forgiveness of sins to the healing he's doing" ([82:44], DeYoung).

4. Faith, Healing, and Misconceptions (83:34 – 88:15)

Addressing Faith Healing & Its Dangers

• Against Faith Healer Mentality: "You can't just claim healing... You can't do that with sins either." ([85:02], DeYoung)
• Repentance, healing, and forgiveness involve effort and process, not “name-it-claim-it” formulas.
• Psalms, repentance, and medication—God heals through all these.

Key Quote:

• "God heals a lot of people through medications and through doctors." ([88:19], DeYoung)

5. The Sacrament of Unction—Biblical & Liturgical Practice (95:11 – 103:58)

Scriptural Basis:

• James 5:14-15 ("Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters... anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.") – Direct scriptural command for Unction ([95:15], Damick).
• Liturgical Details: Traditionally served by seven priests (presbyters), with the oil blessed, prayers for healing, and forgiveness performed ([97:07], DeYoung).

Spiritual Linkage: Sin & Sickness

• "Forgiveness of sins and healing are inextricably linked together" ([98:48], DeYoung).

Misunderstandings & Harmful Approaches:

• Error #1: Illness equals personal sin (Job's comforters model) ([100:20], DeYoung).
• Error #2: Sickness or the world is illusory (Christian Science) – "if you get sick it’s because you sinned," or you “think bad thoughts” ([101:17], Damick).
• Error #3: Partitioning health (physical, mental, spiritual) as unrelated ([104:46], DeYoung). "Functionally, we all know they overlap all the time." ([106:31], DeYoung)

6. Holistic Healing: Human Restoration and the Resurrection (110:09 – end)

Holistic Approach:

• Healing is "the restoration of the whole human person," encompassing biological, spiritual, relational, and communal aspects ([112:54], DeYoung).
• Unction's Purpose: "The healing we receive in this life... gives us more time to repent, to serve the purpose of our life in this world, which is repentance... but there’s a point at which that is done" ([115:41], DeYoung).
• Resurrection as Fulfillment: "The final restoration of the human person and our identity... is in the bodily resurrection. That’s what this is aimed at." ([116:22], DeYoung)

When Unction Doesn't Mean a Miracle Cure:

• "It is [working]. But... the whole point of it is the resurrected person, it's aiming towards the resurrection" ([119:47], Damick).
• Unction is not a mystical guarantee of immediate recovery but a sacrament orienting the person toward union with God through repentance and preparation for the resurrection.

7. Personal Reflections and Pastoral Wisdom (121:05 – 131:47)

• Grief & Healing After Miscarriage:

  • Fr. Andrew shares personal experience and pastoral wisdom relayed to him: "God gives everyone everything that they need in order to be saved" ([123:29], Damick).
  • The sacramental life, including unction, supplies the means for becoming "fit for the Kingdom of God" ([124:49], Damick).

• Human Freedom & Change:

  • "No matter who you’ve been... that can all change. You don’t have to keep playing the part you’ve been playing... You are free... to begin the work of becoming that person you want to be at the resurrection" ([129:06], DeYoung).
  • Our identity is not fixed before birth, nor does it change with a snap; it is shaped through repentance and healing, culminating in the resurrection ([131:03], DeYoung).

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On the soul’s nature: "It’s more like the power itself [in the body], not a removable battery." ([38:03], DeYoung & Damick)
• On spiritual healing: "You are not a product of your environment, but you are also not unaffected by it." ([34:07], Damick/DeYoung)
• On flawed healing theology: "Literally, people have died without medical treatment because of these wrong theological understandings." ([99:57], DeYoung)
• Practical Pastoral Wisdom: “Your doctor cannot address the spiritual part, I... cannot address the physical part... but both are from God and both are things they need.” ([110:14], DeYoung)

Notable Timestamps

• [05:26] – Dr. Michael Heiser tribute
• [12:00] – Genesis, soul, and body
• [19:08] – Patristic models: body, soul, spirit
• [24:52] – Platonic and Calvinistic anthropology critiqued
• [35:09] – The body and personal identity
• [46:02] – Resurrection and being "you"
• [58:00] – Disease as demonic plague in Torah and ancient Near East
• [74:04] – Pestilence as a Horseman in Revelation
• [82:44] – Christ’s healing and forgiveness
• [95:15] – James 5:14-15 and Orthodox practice of unction
• [100:20] – Harmful misconceptions about sin/illness
• [110:14] – Holistic healing: integrating spiritual and physical
• [121:05] – Pastoral reflection: miscarriage and God’s providence
• [129:06] – Freedom and human transformation
• [131:03] – Resurrection as true fulfillment of identity

Tone and Style

The episode is marked by lively banter, deep engagement with scripture and patristic theology, self-aware humor, and pastoral sensitivity, especially in addressing suffering, healing, and identity. Fr. Andrew and Fr. Stephen are careful to maintain clarity, address misconceptions, and use memorable analogies, all with a conversational, relatable tone.

Conclusion

"Unctuous" offers a thorough Orthodox survey of healing and the human person, challenging inherited philosophical assumptions, confronting errors in contemporary faith healing, and situating Holy Unction as a mystery that aims not at magical cures, but at the full restoration of the human person in Christ through repentance, faith, and hope in the bodily resurrection. The sacramental and holistic approach invites listeners to see physical, mental, and spiritual well-being as intertwined, ultimately finding their meaning and fulfillment in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

For listeners looking to engage more:

• Relevant past episodes: "Relics," "The Spirits," "Repentance"
• For ministry and support resources: Seek advice from your priest about Holy Unction; approach illness holistically, integrating prayer, repentance, and medical care.
• Memorable wisdom: "You can break character; you don’t have to keep playing the part you've been playing... you are free... to begin the work of becoming that person you want to be at the resurrection." ([129:29], DeYoung)