Barry Williams (The Brady Bunch) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary — The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Episode: Barry Williams (The Brady Bunch) | Released May 20, 2026

---

Overview

In this episode, Billy Corgan sits down with Barry Williams—best known as Greg Brady from The Brady Bunch—for an exploration of fame, family (real and fictional), culture, and the peculiar legacy of an American television institution. The conversation weaves through nostalgia, the evolution of celebrity, the triumphant and sometimes surreal afterlife of The Brady Bunch, and Williams’ own journey from child actor to respected stage performer and beloved cultural figure.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Appeal of The Brady Bunch

• The show’s fundamental message is about learning to get along, particularly in the context of blended families—something radical for its time.
  • Barry Williams: “The point of what the show is and what the show is truly about is how to get along.” [00:20, 09:07]
• The Brady House as a simulacrum: the recreated TV home (a real house, based on a fictional set) becomes a symbol of American nostalgia and authenticity versus constructed reality.
• The cast remains close, forming a lifelong “inherited” family; these relationships have lasted through major life events.

2. Identity, Nostalgia, and Meta-Fame

• Williams describes the duality of “real family” vs. “TV family” and how his life and identity were shaped by both.
• Multiple generations have developed a personal relationship with the show through syndication.
• The “koan” of The Brady Bunch: even its cast couldn’t have foreseen its lasting cultural impact and recursive popularity.

3. Evolving Through the Arts

• Williams’ career required reinvention, from television to musical theater ("85 different productions of theater"), leveraging both opportunity and resilience.
  • Barry Williams: “The whole trick in terms of career has been recreating. You know, recreating and diversifying.” [11:46]
• Early inspiration came from meeting Peter Graves (star of “Fury” and “Mission Impossible”) as a child.
• Unlike many child stars, his involvement in acting was self-driven rather than parent-led. [18:17]

4. The Genuine Bonds of TV “Family”

• The Brady kids forged real, lasting bonds through years of shared, intense experience, both on and off set.
• Williams expresses deep gratitude for these connections, likening them to the camaraderie of bands or even wartime “peak experiences.”
  • Barry Williams: “The word I have ... is gratitude for that. It expanded the family. It gave us commonality, relatability.” [21:09]

5. Audience Connection & The Nature of Fame

• Williams reflects on the phenomenon of being recognized everywhere and the generational nature of viewer attachment—in some cases, fans feel as if he’s truly part of their own families.
• The “Greg” identity once felt diminishing, but with time he finds gratitude and embraces the iconic role and what it represented to others.
  • Barry Williams: “At some point ... I came to understand less about it being about me and more about what they're experiencing, what they're seeing and what their intention is.” [31:37]
• His work with Christopher Knight on “The Real Brady Bros” podcast helped him see the audience’s enduring emotional investment.

6. Cultural Commentary: The American Dream & Generational Change

• Corgan and Williams muse on how American society processes nostalgia, constructs ideals, and shifts generational attitudes toward work, meaning, and “the dream.”
  • Barry Williams: “We in America have more opportunity and more tools to work with that are available to us than pretty much anywhere.” [47:37]
• Williams sees a shift from “roll up your sleeves” work ethic to a more mediated, sometimes less grounded social landscape.

7. Reality, Perfection, and Being Present

• Williams and Corgan agree that true connection, authenticity, and presence are irreplaceable in art and life—something AI or “perfect” media cannot duplicate.
  • Barry Williams: “That is something that AI will never replace.” [74:54]
• Williams champions the emotional value and relatability of earnestness and shared experience, even when imperfect.

8. Lifelong Adaptation and Joy

• Williams discusses recent projects: professional theater, a reality stint on “I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here!” in South Africa, and life in Branson, Missouri.
• He emphasizes the importance of choosing joy, gratitude, and being willing to reinvent oneself.
  • Barry Williams: “I found, ironically, maybe, that when I started saying no, I had a lot more things to say yes to ... I'm enthusiastic. I have a lot of energy, and I love to work.” [69:39]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Mom, dad, you are standing in the way of my destiny.” — Barry Williams on demanding to act as a child [00:00]
• “You can't fake chemistry ... you can't act it. It's there or it isn't. And we had that.” — Barry Williams [52:19]
• “Get on the ride, stay on the ride, love the ride. It's the only one we get.” — Barry Williams’ parting advice [44:44, 78:52]
• “If you like people, it’s terrific.” — Barry Williams on his benevolence with fans [30:25]
• On initially resenting his typecasting: “For, in the beginning, being called Greg made me feel like they didn’t know me and that somehow it was a threat to my identity. ... At some point, I came to understand less about it being about me and more about what they’re experiencing.” [31:02-31:54]
• On recent reality TV: “Pig brain’s not so bad once you get past the first couple of bites ... it’s the glass of cow urine you have to watch out for.” [68:56-69:03]

---

Important Timestamps

• [00:00] Barry’s childhood & destiny
• [01:11] Simulacra: The real vs. the TV Brady House
• [09:00] Why people bonded with the show—blended families & relatability
• [11:46] Career reinvention & the value of diversifying
• [13:25] Auditioning for Bob Fosse for “Pippin”
• [14:33] Comparing “real” and “TV” families; transitioning roles
• [21:09] The lasting bonds with the Brady cast; gratitude
• [23:37] Sudden fame, public recognition, impact on identity
• [28:10] Gen X’s relationship to the show and the ‘latchkey generation’
• [31:08] Making peace with being recognized as “Greg”
• [33:12] The “Real Brady Bros” podcast and fan interaction
• [41:20] Embracing theater and continuous reinvention
• [47:37] Reflections on the American dream & generational shifts
• [52:19] The realness of the Brady cast’s chemistry
• [55:43] Fame and how the relationship to it has changed in an Internet age
• [58:55] Williams’ view on fame: “If you want to be famous, own it. I love it.”
• [64:50] Recent projects: theater, reality TV in Africa
• [69:39] What motivates Williams now—gratitude and presence
• [74:54] Why authenticity and being present still matter most

---

Tone & Flow

The conversation is reflective, warm, humorous, and candid, frequently blending cultural analysis (meta), personal anecdotes, and mutual respect between Corgan and Williams. Both men are approachable, honest about their flaws and past struggles, and philosophical about change and legacy—the tone swings between good-natured reminiscence and insightful critique of fame and art.

---

Final Takeaways

• The Brady Bunch endures because it was both an ideal and—in key ways—a genuine, relatable reflection of American family life.
• The boundary between public persona and true self can be porous, but gratitude and authenticity offer solid ground.
• Reinvention, openness to new experiences, and staying present are essential for long-term happiness—on and off the stage.
• As Williams says: “Get on the ride, stay on the ride, love the ride. It's the only one we get.”

---

[Summary By The Magnificent Others Podcast Summarizer, May 2026]

Transcript

[Barry Williams]

When I was like 10, 10 years old, I marched into the kitchen after they'd been keeping me away from it, and I said, mom, dad, you are standing in the way of my destiny. If you like people, it's terrific.

[Bill]

Of course, the Brady Bunch is an American institution. Has endured on so many different levels.

[Barry Williams]

The point of what the show is and what the show is truly about is how to get along.

[Bill]

How does that work? And I remember watching, thinking, I wish that was my family. Sure, you guys represented some sense of family that we certainly didn't have.

[Barry Williams]

That's just something you can't act. That's just something you can't make it up. You can't write it. It's there, not there. And we had that.

[Bill]

Is there any pearl of wisdom that you can share?

[Barry Williams]

Get on a ride, Stay on the ride. Love the ride. It's the only one we get.

[Bill]

Mary Williams, so nice to see you. Here we are in the Brady house.

[Barry Williams]

So nice to be here. It's kind of like, welcome home. Some people ask if I ever. And here we are.

[Bill]

We're going to get to the leaving and coming home part.

[Barry Williams]

Very glad to welcome you here.

[Bill]

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for arranging this. This is really cool. It's a cool thing for our show.

[Barry Williams]

Yes, thank you.

[Bill]

Have you ever heard of this term, I can never say it correctly. Simulacra.

[Barry Williams]

Do you know that term, simulacra?

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

It sounds like it simulates lacra.

[Bill]

Good. The concept of simulacra is. I first heard about it in science fiction. It's the idea. It's copy for which there is no original. And the example I always use is like a. If you've ever been to a 50s style diner, it's the. It's the idealized version of a 50s diner. But it never really existed in the way that you like. There's Denny's that have. Right, right. So it's. So it's the idea of like. It's an impressionistic vision of what it would have been like to be in a 50s diner.

[Barry Williams]

But it's not like the Chrysler Building, which is authentic in that art deco kind of style.

[Bill]

And so in a way, this is a simulacra because it is an imitation and there is an original, but it's not. The original never really existed as a television film.

[Barry Williams]

Exactly right. And I was going to make that point as the difference being that that set never, ever existed as a house. So this becomes its own unique and original sort of.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Structure.

[Bill]

It's crazy because it strikes Me as particularly American, that here we have a home that everybody knew the outside because of the television show, but now it's been built up on the inside to actually represent the original TV set. And you've had a big hand in it. And Christopher from the show, Christopher Knight.

[Barry Williams]

All of us did. All of us participated.

[Bill]

That's amazing.

[Barry Williams]

All six kids, which is remarkable. We're all still active and around and you might even say camera ready, which is kind of nice and still good friends.

[Bill]

That's amazing. We'll get to that, too.

[Barry Williams]

And may I just say about the house, too.

[Bill]

Yeah, please. Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

The biggest difference for us when I come in, because it feels comfortable, but it has a ceiling, and we never had a ceiling on the soundstage. So that makes it feel kind of, you know, contained in a different way.

[Bill]

Yeah, I know, because you were involved and think you gave us a little tour before we started. But, um. Do you find yourself sort of comparing your memory of the set versus. And I know you said they blew up photos to. To get close, but like you said, this has two less stairs. And do you find yourself almost phasing between memory, like the. What you remember, and then. This is a real place. But it was a real place. It was just a set.

[Barry Williams]

Right. The experience, it just. I absorb the experience and it's a lifetime.

[Bill]

Growing. Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Changing, seeing, being. And you come into this, it's like, wow. It's a crash of memories and experiences and at different stages, and these really vulnerable stages. We started the series, I was 14 years old, and we finished, and it went off the air when I just turned 20. So all those teenage years. And then Susan Olsen. Cindy started when she was 7. She's 12. I mean, big stages of our lives. And this represents it well.

[Bill]

Plus there's the fascination. And of course, the Brady Bunch as a American institution has endured on so many different levels. Like the word we use these days is meta. It becomes a microcosm of broken families creating new families with, you know, parents from divorces. And that was always the subtext of the show. So in a. In a way. And here we are, we're still examining the phenomenon of the show so many years later. And you've had the interpersonal experience of being in the show, out of the show, and in many ways, you're kind of back in the show. But you're also in charge of what happens with that narrative.

[Barry Williams]

Yes, a bit. A bit.

[Bill]

Can I. Can I ask. Sorry. Because I. I'm fascinated by that. How much control do you feel you have of that narrative because obviously somebody owns the Brady Bunch intellectual property. When I talked to Mickey Dolenz, he was like, every time I go out and tour, I have to, you know, I have to still pay whoever. Screen gems to use the monkey's name. You know, like, how much authorship do you feel you have over the, over the story?

[Barry Williams]

A wide, vast amount of it. They had our studio, Sherwood Schwartz, the copyrights, all of that. It's clear what we own and don't own. I don't own the character. I don't own the character name. I own my participation in the show. I don't know, I don't own the brand, the Brady Bunch, but I can use it to. Oh, you know, I can use it to market if I, if I want to. Barry Williams of the. In the star of Whatever. So. And with the house, this has just become a national historic landmark, which gives it a kind of a. Both a validation and a relevance and it's going to stay this way. So, you know, we're working to look how we can make it more accessible to people and we're using it to, for, for. To benefit charities and raise money for charities. And our custodian, Tina Trahan, has been very, very helpful and oriented toward that. So we're trying to continue that kind of brand.

[Bill]

And for viewers who wouldn't understand, this is an actual house on an actual sort of, you know, LA suburban street. Like it's. We're not in some movie set somewhere. This is a. Like a real home now. It's no lives here.

[Barry Williams]

It's the facade, it's the house that we saw.

[Bill]

Yeah, that's. So that's even crazier to get into meta politics. The other thing I thought of, and sorry to get too spiritual this early, but. And I can never say this word properly, koan. Do you know what a koan is? It's kind of a. I think it's a Buddhist concept. The most famous one is what is the sound of one hand clapping?

[Barry Williams]

Not much, but try it.

[Bill]

It's, you know, there are these parables. They're unsolvable parables, I think would be the idea. And I think the Brady phenomenon is a koan in its own way. It's an unsolvable parable. Because if you went back to. It was Sherwood Schwartz, right? It was the. So if you went back in a time machine and you at 14 years old and you sat you guys down, said, listen, you know, literally, you know, 50 something years from now, people are still going to be fascinated. There's Going to be a real Brady House. There'll have been various revivals. There'll still be a high level interest in the stars of the show books. You know. You see what I'm saying?

[Barry Williams]

I would have just laughed.

[Bill]

Yeah. It would have blown your mind. You would have been like, there's ways how. And by the way, there was certainly precedents for nostalgia in American culture. You know, Dick Cavett famously would bring out Gloria Swanson and Bette Davis and they would talk about old mgm, Irving Thalberg and all that stuff. So it seems to me that you at least had a relationship with. Okay, well, that's possible that at some point, if the series is successful, we'll be in that same sort of thing. People are going to want to talk to us. But no, this is a phenomenon and it really gets into generational politics. People are still very interested in your personal lives, you know, beyond just like, let's call it the tabloid aspect of it.

[Barry Williams]

It's a very different kind of nostalgia. Because when you're just referring to people that did things at a period when the audience grew up or could associate with the movies or whatever they were doing, in this case, they're actually seeing through syndication the shows and creating their own relationship with the programming in multi generations.

[Bill]

Yeah. Is there a common bond that you've seen from people, why they bonded with the show so intently? Please.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. And there are a couple circling back to what you were saying about blended family, which had never been done on television. And they brought us together. But the point of Sherwood Schwartz, our creator, the point of what the show is and what the show is truly about is how to get along. How does that work? And especially when you've got different families, you've got boys and girls, sisters in the competitions and all of that. And how with this group do we all get along? And that is one of the things that people resonate with and look and see inside the show.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

There is a relatability to the characters. Oldest, youngest, boy, girl, sister, jealousy, all of that kind of thing. Also, I don't. Your family, you're growing up. There's a comparison. This is a model of a functional family. What would happen if it worked?

[Bill]

To interject myself in this. I used to watch because we, of course, I was born in 67, so I mostly saw the reruns. At least that's what I remember. And I remember watching, thinking, I wish that was my family.

[Barry Williams]

Sure.

[Bill]

Cause I didn't have any of that behind me.

[Barry Williams]

And there weren't many models of what a Family would look like. So that's a nice thing to go ahead and have a vision of or see. Oh, okay. And there are comparisons and contrasts and of course you could take that both ways. There's a good part of that. And you can also go and this, what I'm into sucks.

[Bill]

Yeah, I saw, I do. I use a certain amount of, you know, AI to do my research because I can ask specific questions and dive down deep. And AI gave me a. Basically a summit, a summation of your life. And I wrote it down because I thought it was interesting.

[Barry Williams]

So this isn't be interesting for me.

[Bill]

This isn't.

[Barry Williams]

I haven't done this yet. I haven't died yet, have I? This is something that's going to be read.

[Bill]

Wavy Warren, Barry, we're in Brady Heaven.

[Barry Williams]

Yes. Rest.

[Bill]

I'm with you in Brady Heaven. The quote was, William's path shows how the. How child stars can evolve through. Can evolve through theater grit. I'll start again. Williams path shows how child stars can evolve through theater grit, self aware nostalgia and ongoing creativity into a varied career of nearly six decades. Or you're about six decades at this point. I thought that was interesting.

[Barry Williams]

It is interesting. And I could have written that. That's very true. The whole trick in terms of career has been is recreating.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

You know, recreating and diversifying. And so what I did was I diversified mediums and I came from television. I thought that would probably take me right into motion pictures. That was absent. I knew I wanted to have music, I wanted to have comedy and stage work. And that's the first thing I did after the Brady Bunch was to head to New York. An audition for Pippen, right?

[Bill]

Yeah. 74.

[Barry Williams]

What a lot of people don't know is the person who auditioned me and the person who actually I won the job from, and that was Bob Fosse.

[Bill]

Wow, Bob.

[Barry Williams]

Was there any.

[Bill]

Okay, wait, what did he think of your dancing?

[Barry Williams]

Well, I didn't have to do a lot of dancing. That was left to the leading player. What I had to do was a lot of movement and choreography. So steps and in time and that kind of thing. And he gave me the greatest piece of direction, the most relatable piece of direction I have ever been given in that audition. And there's a song called Corner of the sky that we were using to audition with. You know, rivers belong where they can ramble, Eagles belong where they can fly. And the choreographer was arms out. Right. And so Bob Fosse, who's in the middle of the house Dark House. Just. Just like you'd think. This is on the stage at the Imperial Theater on Broadway. Right where it was. I was. I was auditioning for the tour, so that show was already in production with Johnny Rubenstein and Irene. And so he gets up and he comes down to the foot of the stage, which I understand was like he'd never done before. And he says, cigarette in his mouth, rolled up, pack in his shirt sleeves. And he says, okay, kid. Pretty good, pretty good. That part about the eagles, when they fly. You're giving me a Cessna and I want a 747. Try it again.

[Bill]

Got it.

[Barry Williams]

Got it. Okay. I got it. Rivers belong where they can ramp. Eagles belong where they can fly. And I got the job. There you go.

[Bill]

Because we're talking about this schism between reality and. Here we are in reality about something that was a fictional reality in the television show. I thought we could discuss a little bit your real family, because so much energy has been spent on your not real family, which became your real family

[Barry Williams]

in a way that is the one most people are familiar with.

[Bill]

Yes. So can you talk a little bit about your real family?

[Barry Williams]

Yes. I was having a discussion about character. And you know how I feel about the Greg Brady character. There was a difference because in my own family, I had a nuclear family and a wonderful middle class upbringing. Dad went to the office, mom was a homemaker, two older brothers. So there are three of us, and I'm the youngest.

[Bill]

Okay.

[Barry Williams]

So I was at the brunt of a lot and kind of like Mikey, the crash test dummy. And so if there were things to be done that involved danger, and I was willing to do them to be included as the youngest so I could try and fit in. So that was flipped when I became the eldest of five siblings. So I grew up in a wonderful neighborhood, middle class neighborhood. I could ride my bike to elementary school. We didn't lock the doors. We lived near the ocean. And that was a big part of my growing up. It was stable, public school, routine, dinner every night, dinner around the table, and surprisingly similar to the created world of the Brady Bunch. So unlike many, that transition or understanding the kind of the logic of the show was not a big adjustment for me. Except it was cool that I now got to be the eldest.

[Bill]

Sure.

[Barry Williams]

And in taking a cue from where I had been, I became like the benevolent old brother, the reliable big brother, and kind of flipped that. And of course, the writers, you know, played all into that, but it did carry over into life.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

We weren't just doing a Television series. We recorded albums, five of them, and we toured. And so we're doing logistics and airports and fairs, and we're in Las Vegas, and there are a lot of things around that and a lot of people to corral. And they're probably only two people looking after them. Two adults and then myself. So those roles kind of would roll over into real life as well.

[Bill]

What. What inspired you to get into the arts?

[Barry Williams]

This is crazy. I was three years old, three and a half years old, going to nursery school and watching TV on Saturday mornings, and there was a cartoon lineup. But there was this one show on television every Saturday morning, and I loved this show called Fury, about a horse. I don't know that one big horse. Fury was a horse that nobody could ride. Peter Graves was the patriarch, and he adopted. Did this kid. The only person who could ride this horse was his son, and he could. He could get on. So I said, I want to be an actor and a cowboy.

[Bill]

Okay?

[Barry Williams]

And I at. Well, it turns out that Peter Graves daughter was going to nursery school with me, and we were pals. And then I found out her dad was this man that I watched. So I asked him, Mr. Graves, kind of, how do you get to be an actor? And he said, almost.

[Bill]

What a voice, too.

[Barry Williams]

Almost dismissed it. But he just said, well, I thought about it, and that's exactly what I did. I went home and I kept thinking about it. My parents wanted to keep me away from it. My dad was not terribly encouraging, although ultimately supporting Hollywood types, you know, so

[Bill]

you didn't have a stage parents. It was totally your idea.

[Barry Williams]

Totally. And then at one point, and when I was like 10, 10 years old, I marched into the kitchen after they'd been keeping me away from it, and I said, mom, dad, you are standing in the way of my destiny. And they said, okay. Dad said, you know, you want to do this? Go study it. Don't, you know, don't just go on a set not knowing what you're doing. So that's what I did. I studied acting with other child actors that were busy at the time. I did private lessons. I did group lessons, scene study, and got an agent.

[Bill]

Wow.

[Barry Williams]

And then. And that agent, we sometimes wonder, they needed. She needed somebody with brown hair and blue eyes and. Or, you know, really liked the reading. And she started sending me out, and I started working and I worked and worked. Yeah. And built it. Built a career. But, yeah, I was leading that charge. I did not have a typical stage parent.

[Bill]

That's so interesting.

[Barry Williams]

Thank goodness. Saved me, I think, because I've seen the other side of that.

[Bill]

Yeah. So, of course, you know, the show, the Brady show, has been way explored. So I try not to go into the same, you know, 50 questions that you've been asked repeatedly, but because I asked you about your real family and now that you can reflect on what became your TV family, like you said, the kids are all still in some form of relationship. You still work together, you still.

[Barry Williams]

Absolutely.

[Bill]

And I know from talking to Susan Olsen, because she was on the show as well, that, you know, there's bonding there that's almost becomes like sister, brother. It really is. Is a literal thing. It becomes a different type of family

[Barry Williams]

where the people we knew, trusted, could depend on and relate to. We were going through a common experience at different stages of our lives, but common experience. And that created a very, very, very strong bond.

[Bill]

But when you look back now, so like, you know, you could take it however you want, but if you look back at, you know, your, your TV parents and then obviously the, the other kids, I mean, can you sort of describe, I guess, the familial affiliation that you have looking back, does that make sense? It's like, can you sum up your TV family, maybe in a nutshell, because, because it, what's. It's the way the analogy I went to, and it's unfair. But, you know, when I started in my band, when I was 20 with the other three people, never in a million years did I imagine that I'd still be thinking about them, arguing about them, arguing with them. You know, it becomes an inherited type of family decades later. And now you, now when you look back, you have. You can see the sort of, the foundational relationships sort of forming even before you knew what was happening. Right. So I'm just asking you to kind of sum up your feeling on that, because you inherited this TV family, which we're still talking about. Right. I mean, again, you can take it however you want. I've just.

[Barry Williams]

Well, the word I have, and you'll hear this probably a lot today, is gratitude for that. It's been. It expanded the family. It gave us commonality, relatability. And then to have these people, these same people, familiar people, all through our lives at the major signpost, marriages sometimes going through, divorces, the birth of children and families. So I'm really grateful to have that with a group that I have shared virtually my entire life.

[Bill]

Yeah, I think the term that comes to mind is peak experience. Right. Like being in a band, you have these peak experiences that only, only the four of us understand. And even when the relationships fall apart, there's an understanding. Like, you went through this very intense thing. You see it oftentimes, and it's not the best analogy. We see people who are in war together.

[Barry Williams]

Yes.

[Bill]

They have some connection that Even if they don't get along the trench. Yeah, yeah. And so obviously, all respect to our veterans, we're not trying to compare ourselves to them. But. But. But it's. It's something about the. I guess the point is the. The point of connection is something about the intensity of the experience.

[Barry Williams]

Imagine, I mean, we. The numbers we throw around today and the numbers we were talking about then,

[Bill]

and it's at its peak. How many viewers were watching, do you remember?

[Barry Williams]

Well, 40 million, 45 million.

[Bill]

I mean, that's a week. So were you recognized? That's. Yeah, exactly. You're walking down the street.

[Barry Williams]

Right.

[Bill]

And still recognize. I. I've hung out with you personally a few times, and it's like, people see you. I mean, there's no way they don't see you.

[Barry Williams]

Well, no. And that's. And that's both because of the reruns in that foundation and also all the new things.

[Bill]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Barry Williams]

On forward. But the reason it was so impactful is because we went from being who we were in our lives and then doing something that we all enjoyed doing but was professional and, you know, and was focused and concentrated and then went out into public, and our lives were changed dramatically by that because. And that's a very profound experience to assimilate with growing up and being a teenager and going through some of that awkwardness and being kind of observed and scrutinized, and that becomes a very impactful period. Like you were saying,

[Bill]

I don't want to really talk much about the show. We talk more about the effect of the show. But I do have to complain about Cousin Oliver because who's. The actor's name is Robbie Wriste.

[Barry Williams]

Robbie Wriste.

[Bill]

Like most people. And I don't want to bore you with my version of memories of the show, but I just remember hating Cousin Oliver. And the only reason I bring it up to you and try to make you laugh a little bit is because it was the last six episodes, I guess he was on the last six episodes, and they brought him in kind of a stunt booking, try to pop some ratings, kind of similar. What they did with it was, remember, like, Scooby Doo. They brought in. It was like that. They brought in the mini Doo.

[Barry Williams]

Right.

[Bill]

I can't remember. It was like Scrappy Doo.

[Barry Williams]

Right?

[Bill]

Yeah. They brought in Scrappy Doo, because it was going to get canceled. And then Scrappy Doo had been an original character, so they brought him back, I think, for the third season, and they got some ratings boost. So I think they were thinking Cousin Oliver was going to. Somehow.

[Barry Williams]

A lot of people will compare that to another show. Happy Days.

[Bill]

Oh, that's right.

[Barry Williams]

When the fawn, they felt they needed a burst and they put big skis on him behind a boat, he had to jump the shark. And then the show went off the air, and Robbie did six shows and the show went off the air, so they made that comparison. Now, just as a disclaimer, right in the front, Robbie Wriste, I consider a friend of mine. I like him. I think he was hysterical on the show. He did a great job. He's a good actor. He's a good musician, and he's very active and busy. He was completely wrong for our show. And it was exactly what you say it was, a kind of a stunt. And what that was is, in simple terms, I think the writers had run out of ideas or they weren't going to let the kids grow up. They, you know, I should have been going off to college.

[Bill]

Kind of like the Simpsons, where the kids never grow up.

[Barry Williams]

Right, right. And so. But we were all grown up. So they brought in somebody young to tag along with Cindy and with Bobby. But the humor and the. The way they wrote for them was not Brady, like, at all. I mean, they're giving him. Da, da, da. They're giving him, you know, 1, 2, 3. Punchline.

[Bill]

Yeah. He was kind of schmaltzy.

[Barry Williams]

And it didn't. It didn't. It didn't fit in at all. It was kind of. So it was not well received and kind of had to suffer the brunt of it.

[Bill]

I rem. I remember, but.

[Barry Williams]

Good guy. Good guy.

[Bill]

God bless him. So March 8, 1974, was the last Brady show. And I wanted to talk.

[Barry Williams]

March 8th was the last filming.

[Bill]

Right.

[Barry Williams]

I mean, I don't know the original.

[Bill]

I just.

[Barry Williams]

I just went off the air in 74 in September.

[Bill]

Yeah. Right. So point being is, you know, that becomes the date where your life changes, but in ways that you couldn't have even anticipated at the moment. I like to sort of note those moments, you know what I mean? When I talked to Susan, we talked about. And she was, what, 12 years old when the show went off the air. And it's like a very mature 12

[Barry Williams]

years old, though by then.

[Bill]

She's still a very mature. Whatever she is now.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah.

[Bill]

But I wanted to ask You. Because I'm sure you've heard from people of my generation, you know, Gen X in particular, because it was really Gen X that brought the Brady Bunch franchise back. If you remember, there was the Brady Bunch play that started in Chicago, the

[Barry Williams]

real live Brady Bunch.

[Bill]

I knew all those people. I literally worked in a record store two doors down. And so I was there at the genesis of that. And that seemed to re kickstart the phenomenon and the movie followed and all that. So God bless them.

[Barry Williams]

Saturday Night Live.

[Bill]

Yeah. But it seems like. And maybe I'm projecting because I'm Gen X, but it seems Gen X has such a particular relationship. And again, repeating myself. But I think it's because we were watching the reruns coming home from school in Those formative years, 8 years old, 12 years old, and watching this family sort of work out their problems on tv. And in my case, I was like, wow, I wish someone would listen to me. I'm just curious for your reflection now that we can both look back on it, because it's a different generation. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on how Gen X. Because we're oftentimes called the latchkey generation, because we were literally the kids that came home to an empty house and we were in a basement. In my case, all my memories of watching your show were in the basement, freezing cold. And there's the. There's people in a warm, beautiful house just like this, having a great time. Crazy stuff happens, but, you know, everybody gets along at the end. And, you know, you know, you had a maid and, you know, we didn't have a maid.

[Barry Williams]

And everybody who has six kids should have an Alice.

[Bill]

Well, God bless.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah.

[Bill]

I wonder if you have any reflections on that generation, because I'm sure you must have. You must have heard 10,000 versions of what I just said. You know what I mean? That you guys represented some sense of family that we certainly didn't have.

[Barry Williams]

I think that. Billy, that goes back to relatability and, you know, the morality of the show and the lessons. They were light, but they're also timeless. And they were. They were, you know, common sense kind of morality.

[Bill]

Yeah. It's not. It's not a Zen. No, not a Zen show. It's just.

[Barry Williams]

But, you know, things like using exact words or being honest or authentic, being able to go to dad and have him listen to you.

[Bill]

And we didn't have that.

[Barry Williams]

No. Right. And I think that those morals and the kind of wrap it up at the end of the episode and start another adventure on the next week. Those kinds of things are safe, and they can be internalized in a way that doesn't go away because it's reinforced. And if that's not going on in your life, want it to happen in your life.

[Bill]

Do you feel. I mean, this might be a stretch, but is. Is. Are there must have been those moments where people come up almost, they want to talk to you about.

[Barry Williams]

Oh, not that they want to invite me to dinner. They consider. Literally consider me part of my. Part of. Part of their family.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Now, I'll give you a couple of examples. Now, I've moved from Los Angeles, where I grew up, and here in Hollywood, and I moved to a small little community in middle America in Missouri. Branson, Missouri. I go into a cafe there, sit down to have a couple of scrambled eggs and toast and a cup of coffee, and people will sit down next to me and start a conversation.

[Bill]

Because they know you.

[Barry Williams]

They think they know.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

And they pick right up in the middle. Oh, God, so great seeing you, you know. Oh, yeah. You have plans today? Have you seen the show down the street? You know, and they'll just pick it up in a conversation. So there's that kind of familiarity now, as you know. Now there's a privilege in that.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

If you have an. A good attitude about it.

[Bill]

Sure.

[Barry Williams]

Because it's like having friends everywhere you go, if you like people.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

It's terrific. Yeah. So that you come in and you start at a completely different level with someone and it's easier to kind of.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Cut through and that the. The Brady thing only lasts so long, and then you're, you know, talking.

[Bill]

Oh, you're real people, right. Yeah. I mean, I was. I mean, this is a compliment. I hope you take it as a compliment. The first time we met, we went to dinner with a mutual friend of ours. And I remember we were walking down the street because we were going to a concert or something, and literally somebody called out, hey, Greg. You know what I mean?

[Barry Williams]

Yes.

[Bill]

And. And I remember thinking, like. Because if that was me, I'd be like, I'm going to kill you. And you were so graceful. You were so kind about it.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah.

[Bill]

And I thought. I thought. Yeah. I was so impressed that you had sort of made peace with the whole thing.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. That wasn't always the case.

[Bill]

Okay.

[Barry Williams]

That was not always the I. For. For. In the beginning, being called Greg made me feel like they didn't know me and that somehow it was a threat to my identity.

[Bill]

It feel like a diminishment, in a way. It Did.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. Well, a non acknowledgment as well.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Because, you know, I mean, it's nice to be recognized, but, you know, it is, after all, a character.

[Bill]

I'm the rat in the cage guys. That's what I get in airports, you know, because I. My one song, you know, so, like, you're the rat in the cage guy. Right.

[Barry Williams]

But at some point, you know, I came to understand less about it being about me and more about what they're experiencing, what they're seeing and what their intention is. And it wasn't meant to be offensive. It wasn't meant to be. To disregard me.

[Bill]

And so at what point did you reach this Zen kind of understanding?

[Barry Williams]

Oh, gosh, after several years on the table, I think, of examination and trying to work through and put these things together and assimilate everything. I was probably, you know, into my 30s.

[Bill]

Okay.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. So maybe 10 years, 15 years after the.

[Bill]

Yeah, that sounds about right. That's a lot to process.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. And now, you know, we. I don't want to jump.

[Bill]

No, you talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[Barry Williams]

Well, the interesting thing about fan relationship for me was I never knew really what the fan. What somebody who'd watched the show and embraced the show and had an experience with the show, what that really meant to them. Yeah, because I. I wasn't. I didn't. I wasn't a viewer of the show. I studied the shows. Sometimes I looked at them, you know, from a directorial or show or. But I wasn't really looking at watching for entertainment. And so people that. That had really taken. Taken. Taken it in and it had meaning to. It was hard for me to make that jump. My Brady mate, Brady bro, Christopher Knight, and I embarked on a podcast called the Real Brady Bros. And it was episodic recap. So the challenge and the idea of this podcast is to do one episode a week, break it down, get into the minutiae, give our perspectives. We would watch it, we'd take notes, we would exchange notes and then sit down and zoom together and do this audio podcast of each episode. Where we were at the time, what happened, who the guest stars were, where they are now, all. All of this. But what we've discovered was the aspect of what viewers were getting and taking out of it because we, you know, we were removed. We're removed from it now so we could watch it and be entertained by it and watch what the point of it was and what it was about. And it gave us such great insight to what people are Relating to when we're face to face as fans. And it was very, very valuable for both of us and kind of, you know, brought it, you know, in a full circle.

[Bill]

Yeah. The only thing I think I could add to that is I feel like I've seen every Brady Bunch episode at least five to seven times. But that's because.

[Barry Williams]

Because. Whoa. Just allow me just to be shocked. I did not. I did not know that.

[Bill]

You know, I know, but I think that was. I don't. I think that was common for a lot of our generation. Because in that period of syndication, Rady's was always on. I feel like it was always on, like, four. And because it must have drew viewers. It was like a prime get home from.

[Barry Williams]

Get home from school, watch an episode, then do homework.

[Bill]

Or in our case, I feel like they showed episodes back to back, usually two. Yeah. So, I mean, I feel like I saw every one of those episodes. So it wasn't just, oh, that one episode. Like, it was, like, imprinted in your brain, almost like a DNA thing where, you know, you really. Well, God bless. That's what I'm saying. I think that's the intensity of that. That exchange.

[Barry Williams]

It's powerful.

[Bill]

I think syndication sort of gave the show this other sort of. I don't even know how to explain it. It's like, you know, we've all had that experience where it's like we don't totally understand a song the first time we hear it. And about the seventh time, we kind of get and go, oh, okay, there it is. It starts to feel it.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, right. Well, exactly. You feel it. It becomes actualized inside. Yeah.

[Bill]

Because it becomes at some point less about, was that a good episode or a bad episode? It's like, oh, this is that episode. It's like, this is. When that thing happens, you know, it sort of breaks down the helix of the thing anyway.

[Barry Williams]

And there's an arc between. Between the seasons as well. The innocence of the first season, and we literally were getting to know each other the second and third seasons where the. Where the writers were really on their game. And then when. When it began, like the fifth season, which I always thought was the best. Cause I liked it the best. But. But as a show, I take the fourth season, when we went to Hawaii. That one.

[Bill]

Everybody remembers Hawaii. Right. I'd be remiss not to talk a little bit about the Brady variety shows because I don't remember them at the time. And I talked with Susan about them, and they're such a microcosm of 70s culture. And entertainment. I just jump in here because I just think it's so fascinating. Of course, Rip Taylor, Milton Berle, Vincent Price, Charo Rich Little. I mean, that is like that.

[Barry Williams]

Farrah Fawcett, Tina Turner. I mean, Milton Berl did just everybody. I mean, it was an amazing experience. I. I said, I Recommend Going to YouTube immediately and seeing as many of these as you can.

[Bill]

They're fast.

[Barry Williams]

It is fantastic.

[Bill]

They're like. They're like cool, fun, weird. So over the top, terrible. Like, it's all like this car crash of like, what is happening? Did you. Did you have a sense at the time of. Because obviously, okay, the series is not going to continue. And yet here you are a couple years later. You guys are still.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, three years later.

[Bill]

Would you. I'm going to give my opinion. You tell me if you agree or you don't agree. It seems to me that maybe that's the first indication that the audience doesn't want to let you guys go. Does it make sense?

[Barry Williams]

It does, it does.

[Bill]

Like, why are you doing Variety?

[Barry Williams]

That's a very good question. Why were we doing.

[Bill]

And there weren't there skits too, Right? You guys would do skits.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, little like kind of five minute,

[Bill]

like Carol Burnett type skits.

[Barry Williams]

And choreography.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Duets and popular music.

[Bill]

You seem particularly to be invested in the variety show.

[Barry Williams]

I loved it.

[Bill]

Well, shades of things to come, right?

[Barry Williams]

Well, yes. And, you know, I was doing musical theater. I'd finished my. My Pippin Tour by then, and now I'm coming back. The first. The first song I sang on that show was. Was Corner of the Sky.

[Bill]

Okay.

[Barry Williams]

And so, yeah, and then all these guest stars come coming on. Because that was, you know, a genre of the day. You know, in the mid-70s, it's kind of. Everybody had a variety show now. It was over the top and it was campy and it was silly and the costumes were completely overblown. I loved all of it.

[Bill]

Yeah. If you'd never had success, which obviously have. But you still have an interesting story to tell because you were on a lot of these apocryphal shows that are legendary shows. Dragnet, Mission Impossible, Mod Squad. This is all pre Brady Bunch, but the one that jumped out to you was Gomer Pyle.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah.

[Bill]

You got any good Gomer Pyle songs? I just love Gomer Pyle.

[Barry Williams]

I did three shows at Paramount. Mod Squad, Gore Pyle and that girl.

[Bill]

I don't remember that girl.

[Barry Williams]

That girl was Marlo Thomas.

[Bill]

Oh, okay.

[Barry Williams]

Danny's.

[Bill]

I do know that. Shit.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, Those were both done At Paramount, I can take you full circle, please. Because our director for the first six episodes of the Brady Bunch, John Rich, was doing the casting with Sherwood Schwartz. He directed both the Gomer Pyle and that girl that I was in. So I was an autograph hound in the Gomer pile. We shot it at Paramount Studios where we filmed the Brady Bunch. So when it came around to casting, he knew me. That helped a lot. The network was aware of me and so was the studio. So I think that, you know, it's these little things. That was a one day shoot with Jim Neighbors and Sargent and it's fun. And then it was over and then it led to other things. Now, just after I got the Brady Bunch, I want to circle back to when I made my decision to become an actor. Peter Graves Fury is now the star of mission impossible. Right, Mr. Phelps. And I have an audition for that. I haven't started filming Brady yet, but I have an audition for Mission Impossible. And the mission was I was a young king and my uncle was evil and wanted to off me. And the mission was to get me to see that he was not, you know, didn't have my best interests in mind. And I got that job and I got to work with, on my favorite show with Peter Graves. And that was Full Circle. Yeah, it was really cool.

[Bill]

The, the, the transition to musical theater post Brady. It, it seems obvious because of your, your interests, but like you said, you hoped movies would be there. They weren't. Was there? Was there, Was it that you didn't get the kind of TV jobs you were looking for? Or you were like, this is sort of more where my heart is. Like, what was the logic at that point?

[Barry Williams]

At that time I knew studios, I knew filming, and I wanted to be on stage. So I really actively pursued that.

[Bill]

Can you, can you explain the logic behind that at that point? Because that's an interesting decision.

[Barry Williams]

Well, it's a very different medium.

[Bill]

I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's such a different medium, such a different skill set.

[Barry Williams]

But, you know, music was a very, very important part of what I was doing. And I love the expression of it. And I, I was working on it, learning it, and I was learning dance and movement. The Brady's, we all had choreography, separated us from the Partridge Family.

[Bill]

No competition and.

[Barry Williams]

Right. And so it, it seemed pretty logical. Musical seemed to be. And Florence Henderson was, you know, was a great inspiration because of Oklahoma.

[Bill]

Oklahoma. Yeah, she's fantastic in that too. I mean, very, very gifted person.

[Barry Williams]

And she was the one who Actually said that this tour was gonna go out. So she led me to it and was very helpful in allowing me to get inside to even compete for the show.

[Bill]

Right. So did you face doubt, you know, TV actor and here you come into.

[Barry Williams]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Nobody in New York was gonna, was excited to see Mr. Hollywood walk in there and, and, and they don't, you know, they don't give away jobs there either. So I was, I was very glad that I was, you know, as prepared as I could be. There were I several lessons I learned about theater etiquette on the road, and I should have been learning it earlier, but it was, it seemed like pretty natural. And then, you know, then it's a. The business is strange that it happens. Things happen the way they happen. And I've found in retrospect, embrace, embrace the way it's going. So if I wasn't getting a job, then I would take another job or I would, I would be proactive wherever I could be. It's harder to be proactive. Landing a series, landing a movie. It's, you know, you need reps to do that and meetings to happen and things like that. Auditioning for or in theater. I was getting calls, you know, oh, well, we'd like to have you in this production. I did 85, I've done 85 different productions of theater, so I've a lot of experience in that. And I didn't have to audition as much, so they were coming more often. And so that became another reinvention.

[Bill]

When did you feel. This is maybe too general question, but when did you feel like you kind of earned your stripe in the theater world? You know what I mean? You walk through the door and obviously you gotta get some auditions and stuff like that, but there's always gonna be that skepticism. Is it, is it your name? And like, when did you feel like you felt like, okay, theater world embraced you for you? Well, is that fair question?

[Barry Williams]

It is a fair question. And I don't, I mean, I don't know that. I mean, I, I, mine was really a less at result and more at process. So I, you know, I, I just kind of throw in, do the very best I could and, you know, be responsible and stay on top of it and deliver the best I could. Then everybody else makes up their own mind in terms of being accepted. You know, I've not won a Tony, I've not been nominated for a Tony, so maybe I was never accepted. I don't know. I know I made a good living and I've been Busy doing it and enjoyed every minute of it.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

So it seems to have been, you know, you get a sense of what you're doing. If you're doing a tour, two, three, four cities a week, every, every show is reviewed.

[Bill]

Ah.

[Barry Williams]

So you know, you've got local.

[Bill]

Are you, are you a review reader?

[Barry Williams]

If they're good? No, I read them all and I, I, I, I didn't really, I don't know how much I learned from them because there's a lot of bias that goes into reviews. Get a general feel whether you're making hitting the mark or not.

[Bill]

Sure.

[Barry Williams]

And I would listen to a review. Well, what are they getting out of it? What are they feeling about it? What, what's the production providing for them? Not, you know, how I looked or, you know, the notes I was hitting or the range of voice and not that kind of stuff, but, but what, you know, what were they taking from the production? And that seemed to be generally very good. And I was generally name above title. So that made me feel like, okay, I've got a home here.

[Bill]

You've had a particularly interesting life and you've had a front seat to the American experience. You saw it in Hollywood.

[Barry Williams]

Yes.

[Bill]

You saw it on the road as a theater actor and performer. And then of course, in Branson.

[Barry Williams]

Branson, yeah. I mean, love Branson.

[Bill]

Yeah. But I'm just curious because you're uniquely positioned to sort of look at how America perceives a lot of things, celebrity and fame being one of them, but also sort of the American, sort of, you know, Americans have a particular obsession as we're sitting in the Brady House, you know, some how many years later, you know what I mean?

[Barry Williams]

We are.

[Bill]

Oh, that's right, we are, we are. But, but, you know, you know, a European mind might sort of look down their nose at the way we obsess over things, but I think we have a particular engine. That is what I try to explain to people. Maybe you've had this experience because I tour all over the world with the band still. People are very critical of America. I'm not saying they haven't always been, but these last 15 years, more so. And they almost want to ask me, like, what's going on with your country? Like, is your country gone mad? And I think they come to a conclusion that we don't think, we think we're good or we're perfect. And I said, well, in my estimation, most Americans realize that America is an imperfect country. And they said, then why do you guys sort of swing your, you know, what's around the way that you do. And I said, because we believe in the American dream, which is different, true and just the fact. And we're examples of the American dream. I mean, we came from basically nothing to build up an incredible life and individual experiences. So what I'm after is. Is. Is what it. From your front row. Well, you're not front row seat, you're on stage. But from your vantage point, what, what do you. What have you seen about the American sort of spirit that. That has impressed you or beguiled you or, or is at the root of your ability to relate to people? Because I think your, your, Your artistic life has so much to do with people being able to connect with you, you know, and you're that way in person. I mean, it's just in your character, your being.

[Barry Williams]

What a terrific question.

[Bill]

Oh, thank you.

[Barry Williams]

And that one's never been asked.

[Bill]

We need a little bell. Every time I ask a question, everyone asks a little bell.

[Barry Williams]

I think in many ways we're products of our generation and what we. What tools were given to. To make our lives. I think we in America have more opportunity and more tools to work with that are available to us than pretty much anywhere now than anywhere. But it depends a lot on how that is, what we're being told, what. What are the conditions of the world at the time, the information that we're fed. And we are fed a lot of information and even more now when we're just completely overloaded with it. So, you know, you want an answer, Any answer you want, you can find. Right. So if that's guiding you. So I'm of a generation where it was, roll up your sleeves, hard work, go to it, you know, stay focused, do a good job, be responsible and, and don't, you know, don't just blow it all, you know, concern. And that was the way I was raised. That was. That is less so now. I think it's easier. I think there are values there that are still that are available, but I don't think that in generations now, that's really being reinforced a lot. I think there are different directions that people are going and people want to experiment more with. Well, maybe I can get by without working. You know, maybe I can get by with just doing a startup.

[Bill]

Maybe I can just go online and be an influencer.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. Yeah. What is that? You know?

[Bill]

Well, it's just a nicer word for,

[Barry Williams]

I think, and, and, and even there. But, you know, there are people. But there is a price to that.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

In terms of character, there's a price in terms of building blocks and making.

[Bill]

Well, they're going to fig. You know what I mean? There's a lot of people from my generation with a lot of tattoos that are gonna, at some point gonna sort of regret all the tattoos.

[Barry Williams]

So. But in answering the question, that's what I'm seeing. There are a lot of, you know, a lot of places now where instead of, you know, rolling up your sleeves, instead of, like, showing up five minutes ahead of time, they are looking for, oftentimes a way to skate by. And they may not feel that they have that same opportunity, but I think they do. But you've got to find it.

[Bill]

Do you. This might be an intellectual leap, but do you see where young people. There's an. You know, you said it's generational, so I agree with that. And one thing that I see from my perspective as a Gen Xer is there was an earnestness, an earnestness about 70s culture that at the time annoyed me.

[Barry Williams]

I'll bet, because a lot of that, that was not represented in the real world.

[Bill]

Yes. It felt inauthentic. Now, looking back, I miss it and what the reason I miss it is because even if it wasn't real and for many people, of course, and we don't have to say who we know who's been disadvantaged in this system that we grew up in, but the idealism at least kind of gives you, like, a point on the horizon and.

[Barry Williams]

Right.

[Bill]

So like I said when I would watch the Brady Bunch, of course I knew it was a TV show. Right. I knew you were all actors, but I would find myself getting emotional because I was like, this is at least the way it's supposed to be, at least set like an ideal. An ideal. And, and, and, and that earnestness at the time, and not with you guys, but in a lot of other things, it sort of graded against me because I was like, this is so not my experience. You know, real life can't be like that. And I think that's where the Brady thing is unique. It's sort of right on the line of real and not real. But when you talk about the continued relationships, particularly amongst the kids, it was real. So maybe we were picking up on some deeper zeitgeist level that we were watching something real.

[Barry Williams]

There was an innocence to it, to the stories. But I think what you're describing is the underlying element that has made the show remain successful.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

There was a chemistry.

[Bill]

Oh, yeah.

[Barry Williams]

And that's the something you can't fake. That's just something you can't act. That's the something. You can't make it up, you can't write it. It's there, not there. And we had that.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

And still do.

[Bill]

When you, when you wrote your book in 92 Growing up, Brady, was that your sort of coming out? Like, okay, I've, I've accepted that in my life this is going to be a key definitely thing. Did you, what was the reaction to that public statement? Does it make sense? You know what I mean?

[Barry Williams]

Huge.

[Bill]

Please elaborate. Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

First, understand that all this touring that I was talking about, and by then, by 92, there'd been a lot of it. That's more than a decade, 15 years of touring and crossing the country and hotels, motels, buses and airplanes and things. So in each one of those cities, I was the guy who promoted the show that I was in for the night or two nights or the week.

[Bill]

You go to the radio station and

[Barry Williams]

the radio station, the, the television morning show, the afternoon talk show, the, whatever was local, the newspaper, the thing. And that's. Those are the questions not, you know, tell us about the Sound of Music or tell us about, you know, Oklahoma or West side Story. They want to know about the radio much. So I talked a lot about it, so that was okay. It's book time and I, I, I am proud of the book. And it, and it hit, hit a, hit a nerve and it was, became a national bestseller for months on New York Times list. And it, it really jump started my really adult coming out because people really understood what my point of view was about doing the show still had to learn about what their point of view was about seeing it. But this was my point of view about doing it and growing up in it.

[Bill]

What was it about that point of view that you think now resonated with people?

[Barry Williams]

A sense of humor. A sense of humor about it, about the things that, the way we were presenting things and about the way they really were, the relationships that we had. I had a crush on Florence Henderson. I had a Crush on Maureen McCormick.

[Bill]

We all had a crush on Maureen.

[Barry Williams]

Sure. And yeah, we still do in our hearts. Just take me back to 18.

[Bill]

Yeah, yeah. Because you've watched this thing happen for most of your life, which is crazy to think about. And we've seen in recent times that the relationship of the public to fame and celebrity has just morphed into something I think that none of us could have anticipated. I'll throw out a recent example. David Gilmour of Pink Floyd's guitar just sold for $14 million.

[Barry Williams]

14 million.

[Bill]

Yeah. Jim Ursay of the Colts had bought it maybe 10 years before something maybe for 4 million.

[Barry Williams]

Okay. Some people have too much money in.

[Bill]

Well, but. Sure, but, but what I'm saying is there seems to be something happening. The, the, the, the. The intense interest in memorabilia, the intense interest in what really went on. You said you literally did a podcast with Christopher where you guys went through every episode.

[Barry Williams]

Every episode, yeah.

[Bill]

You know what I mean? So you've watched this, this morphing relationship to. And you had true celebrity and fame when you were a teenager. So it's not that you didn't experience similar it in a peak form in 1970, whatever. But I think. Would you agree with me that the relationship to fame and maybe because of the Internet, it's just turned into this other animal. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying it's like it's almost morphing to something that I can't even find a precedent for.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, it's very different.

[Bill]

Like if we, if we took your fame when you were 15 years old and we went back and looked at the fame of being, know, Jackie Coogan or Jackie Cooper or, you know, Mary Pickford, you know, there's. There were antecedents generationally, but something about the last 15, 20 years, it must be the Internet. It's changed the relationship to fame into something completely new. Can you speak on that?

[Barry Williams]

I can. There are a couple of things about it. One is the transparency. I mean, there are just hardly any secrets. You can find out anything about anybody, everything about anybody. And now the scrutiny is way intensified. The large majority of the people that are like, quote, famous now or influencer people now or people or the game shows, the travel shows, the, you know, the housewives, the reality stuff, reality, you know, they're not going to be able to sustain. You're not going to be watching these things in reruns over and over and over again.

[Bill]

I don't think there's a lot of talk even in the music business that the stars of the 2000s or 2000s are not going to enjoy the same type of success that we're enjoying because the diffusion of focus. So in many ways we're more famous and in many ways those people are less famous, even though they might have bigger Instagram numbers, which is kind of a weird phenomenon.

[Barry Williams]

But I think it is more of a temporary kind of phenomenon.

[Bill]

But you think it maybe is connected to the fact that they're like, like I said, I, I watched your show so many Times, you know what I mean?

[Barry Williams]

It becomes ingrained.

[Bill]

Yeah. It's like where maybe this. The ephemeral aspect of this culture is. The sustain is going to be different. I don't know. I know we're poking around in ambiguity here.

[Barry Williams]

Well, I think that the show, the Brady's, that was kind of woven into the fabric. Sure. And I think that's kind of what you're describing.

[Bill]

Absolutely. It became just. We sit at the table and talk

[Barry Williams]

about the show that kind of comes at us now by the Internet or this quick bite. Or this quick bite. Or from this scroll and that scroll and this little bit. I don't really. It doesn't have that opportunity to really be. To really be integrated.

[Bill]

Let me ask a slightly different question. How do you. Because you've had fame for most of your life and your entire adult life, how do you view fame? Do you. Do you view it as a blessing, a curse, a mixed bag? Like, how do you. How do you. Or celebrity take it? However you want, but I think if

[Barry Williams]

you want to be famous, own it. I love it. I think it's great. I like conducting my life that way. I conduct it openly. It helps to like people, for sure, because they can be invasive. So, you know, you want to be able to be able to manage that.

[Bill]

It is a skill.

[Barry Williams]

And it's, you know, for the people that really are really, really shy and that are famous and on, you know, movie stars and things like that, I really feel sorry because it's got to be really hard for them. But look, you know, let's face it. I didn't become an actor. I didn't become a singer. I didn't become a performer to go unnoticed. Right. I mean, there are a million other things.

[Bill]

It did well. It did well.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. And. And I don't, you know, and. And if that. That creative urge is burning inside you and then all this stuff explodes. Well, that's part of it.

[Bill]

Yeah. You know, that's.

[Barry Williams]

This is part of what gives you that license to do it. So, you know, it's. The old thing is, you know, you know, paddle the. The boat in the direction the river is flowing.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Right.

[Bill]

One of our mutual friends said to ask you this, so I apologize if it's. If it's off.

[Barry Williams]

Well, maybe I should know which one.

[Bill]

Well, you know who I'm talking about, the one with the foghorn voice. He said, quote, he's like Santa Claus. Everywhere he goes, he's like Santa Claus. He wants to give out presents. And basically he was citing your benevolence with the public.

[Barry Williams]

Public.

[Bill]

He said, ask him about being Santa Claus. Well, so he said something online. So like, like if people want you to say groovy or. Right, okay.

[Barry Williams]

People usually don't put that, you know, they don't start directing me right away, like, hey, would you sing? Clowns never laugh before, don't you? Could you just give me a hey there groovy chick? And then I'll go, well, let's, let's, let's kind of recreate. A fan meeting.

[Bill]

Sure.

[Barry Williams]

And so they will come in to the space.

[Bill]

Are you, are you?

[Barry Williams]

Are you? And you can see them putting that together and you can see there's kind of that excitement, anticipation, insecurity. And then it comes, or maybe it already has. And now they're going into their experience when they were watching the show. So they're transformed, literally transforming. Say a 40 year old woman, she's like now 17.

[Bill]

Right.

[Barry Williams]

That's when she watched the show. And you can kind of see that and now and that becomes that kind of connection. And the heart light goes on. Right. Because they're remembering when they're seeing it at the time that they saw it. And that follows for each successive generation, you know, whenever they were watching. So that's the Santa Claus analogy. And the character that I was playing, who was Greg, Greg was, you know, a normal, you know, high school student who had these, this family and took care of them, listened to them, liked them, would argue with them, but it always turned out well, had their back. So that's. I become the big brother. The reliable big brother. Yeah. And that's the experience I let them have that.

[Bill]

It doesn't take long, if you don't mind, because when we went to dinner recently, you were talking about various Brady pitches through the years.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, there have been a few.

[Bill]

Yeah. Can you just throw. It was making me laugh, so I thought it'd be fun to share.

[Barry Williams]

Well, yeah, we've done a lot.

[Bill]

This is. The show's been off the air for a while and somebody's got an idea, let's bring the cast back to do it.

[Barry Williams]

Okay, so here are some of the ones you might be familiar. So, you know, we had the cartoon show, we had the variety show, we had a very Brady Christmas. We had Brady brides when Marcia and Jan got married, then they drew, you know, lines down the house. And then we had to keep on your own side. And so then we had the Brady's, which was the serious version of it. And in the 90s we had the movies.

[Bill]

I missed the serious one.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, yeah, that was. Well, it was short lived because you can't mess with that.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Brady's of the Brady's. Right. It's a brand. There's a lane there. Driving your own lane, so. And then there were the movies and books and plays and the, you know, Real Library Bunch. And there's a music. Okay. So there's a Brady Bunch musical and there is the Brady Bunch Goes to Washington.

[Bill]

Okay.

[Barry Williams]

There's the Brady Bunch Goes to Outer Space.

[Bill]

That's the one I want to see.

[Barry Williams]

Me too. I've never seen it.

[Bill]

I really want to see that. But they're, you know, I'll produce that if you want. If you need any money, I'm. I'm in. Okay. I mean, think about it. In the Internet age, Brady Bunch Goes to Space.

[Barry Williams]

Pretty cool. You know, it would be huge.

[Bill]

We're sending out because who could not watch it, Right. Quality. Who knows?

[Barry Williams]

But right, right, right.

[Bill]

We got CGI now who knows? Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

And there's Brady Bunch. Yeah.

[Bill]

Musical too. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

[Barry Williams]

So, by the way, I would. I wasn't a part of those and I, I believe they've been made.

[Bill]

Oh, really?

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. No, I was never in the.

[Bill]

Oh, I thought you were just talking about people's pitches. I didn't know they actually made.

[Barry Williams]

Some of them were made. I think Brady Bunch Goes to Washington. People can, you know, run to their Google and. But yeah, that was made, I think. I don't know. I do. Honestly, I don't know, but I know it was, it was pitched.

[Bill]

Well, I like Brady Bunch, so. Because I think it's important to, to connect the dots here. Talk, Talk about your. And you say it however you want, but talk about your year ahead of work because I know you're so busy, so like, like looking down in. We're in 2026 as we're filming this. So like, for the rest of this year, what's your, what's your year ahead? Because you're, you're always, you're always. You're out there, man.

[Barry Williams]

Okay, well, let me just pick you up from the last six months. Sure. And then, and then forward because there are things that are being talked about. I don't know, you know, what, what's going to happen with them and we'll see. But I can talk to you about what's been very recent and what, what's current. I continue to work in musical theater. I did a straight play, a comedy in Kansas City for three months.

[Bill]

According to our mutual friend, it Was sold out.

[Barry Williams]

Like, it was. It was a wonderful, huge success. Yeah, yeah. Called. Called New Theater in Kansas City and wonderful production people. All the shows they do.

[Bill]

Is this the Empty Nester play?

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, not the. Yes, the Empty Nester play called where

[Bill]

the Kids Leave and Come Back. Hilarity and Come Back. Right.

[Barry Williams]

And then immediately after that, I went to do a reality show in South Africa called I'm a Celebrity. Get Me out of Here.

[Bill]

That sounds like a nightmare.

[Barry Williams]

It was fantastic.

[Bill]

You loved it.

[Barry Williams]

Talk about peak experiences. I'll run it down now. The deal is you've got these trials. They're eating trials. Mostly it's about facing your phobias. Oh, yeah. And much, much worse.

[Bill]

You're a stronger man than I. Yeah, well.

[Barry Williams]

And you do what you gotta do. Heights, fear of heights. Fear of being buried. Reptiles, you know, in confined spaces, being blindfolded. You know, all these things to win food for the camp and all of this kind of a thing. This was a peak experience. It's in the jungle of Africa, outdoors. No Internet, no cell phones, no distractions, no books, no journals, no watch. We didn't know time, no maid. We didn't know we had no oven. We cooked on coals. You know, we would keep. Build the fire, did our own laundry, had to take out the dunny bucket. Every year for a month, we're doing this. And then in selection, we're being. Going out and doing these trials, which, can we say, Calurin and. And pig brain and things like that for.

[Bill]

And it's a TV production, so there's probably moments where you're sitting there for three hours where they're getting the cameras ready.

[Barry Williams]

And if you're not actually off doing that, you're back at camp doing well. There are no distractions. So you're getting to know people and a very intense and deep level in a very short amount of time.

[Bill]

Anybody else on the show with you that we would know?

[Barry Williams]

I. I don't. I was not aware there were Australian influencers and. And comedians and some sports people. Great, great group of people. Couple of actors. But I just didn't happen to know their work bonded with them wonderfully. And I liked all of them, and I love Australia anyway, but this was. The life was okay. What do you do when you're by yourself and there's literally nothing to actually do or that you have to do and you're in the middle of the animals? And we had lots of them and we had people in the perimeter that were chasing, you know, ones that could be dangerous. We had cobras come into the. Into the campsite, where then they have to be. We were. We had a microphone and we were told if we see, you know, a snake, any kind of snake, much less a cobra, stop and say snake, right? And don't move or back up. And then they come in and take them out. So that was life. And we're waking up with the baboons and the monkeys that were there and the birds that were there, and to be offline for all of that, excellent.

[Bill]

But how do you pitch this to your wife?

[Barry Williams]

Not easy. And that was a month of not speaking to her or anybody else outside. But the production would talk to her, let her know that I was okay and that kind of stuff. But I. But we didn't have any outside. But, you know, what a reset. What a great reset.

[Bill]

You're a strong man.

[Barry Williams]

Oh, pig brain's not so bad once you get past the first couple of bites.

[Bill]

I'm a vegan.

[Barry Williams]

It's the glass of cow urine. You have to walk out.

[Bill]

Watch out. I wonder if cow urine. If that goes against the vegan lifestyle, Right?

[Barry Williams]

I don't think so, because.

[Bill]

Process. Yeah, you're safe, you're good.

[Barry Williams]

I'll grab you some. Um.

[Bill]

I mean this in a. In a kind and respectful way, because I'm. I've just turned 59 at the time we're taping this. And of course, like anybody else, you look forward to your. Your life as you're getting older and you think, how active am I going to be? What am I going to stay focused on? What's going to motivate me? So I thought to ask you, because you've been in the arts for so long, like, what gets you out of bed? Like, what gets you. Like, is it just work or is it just staying busy? Like, what keeps you going?

[Barry Williams]

Well, I feel a lot less pressure on myself. I found, ironically, maybe, that when I started saying no, I had a lot more things to say yes to. But there's choice, but I'm enthusiastic. I have a lot of energy, and I love to work. I love to take on projects I like. And I love where I live and getting up. I live on a lake, and I have a lake boat, you know, like a pontoon. Tritune.

[Bill]

The classic.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah. To go out and be in the water, that motivates me, you know, to go out and do and be active and involved. I have a great set of friends where I now live. More friends than I ever had, you know, in Los Angeles, smaller community, very close down on them.

[Bill]

I'm not saying you're the mayor there, but you're close to the mayor over there. At this point.

[Barry Williams]

No politics for me.

[Bill]

Well, you know what I mean.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah, I do know.

[Bill]

Yeah. They certainly celebrate in Bramson, people who want to be there, and of course they do, because they're proud of it. Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Like, when I grew up, we were proud of. I grew up in a little community called the Pacific Palisades. I was born in Santa Monica. I mean, and we celebrated that.

[Bill]

What's the name in Bramson? The name of the family they kind of do, like. It's a family show.

[Barry Williams]

The Haygoods. Yeah, the Haygood family.

[Bill]

Yeah. I've met them, and they're so nice, and. And I didn't really enjoy their show.

[Barry Williams]

I've been adopted. I'm the 11th. Hey, good.

[Bill]

Oh, I didn't know that. And they came to see me play when I was in the area. Great people.

[Barry Williams]

And my best friends.

[Bill]

My best friends. Please send them my regards. There's wonderful people.

[Barry Williams]

I think you just did, but.

[Bill]

Well, I will. Coming from you, it means. Yeah, I like it. I found this clip, you know, poking around, as you can imagine, if I go digging on you on something like YouTube, most of it is just Brady Bunch. Brady Bunch, Brady Bunch. So I was trying to find something that I could kind of hang my hat on that felt personal to me, and I thought this was interesting. So I found a clip of you and Maureen singing on the Mike Douglas show. I think this would have been 1974. Somewhere around there. 77. I can't remember. I think you would have been out 23 years old. Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Probably about 77.

[Bill]

Yeah. And you sing a song by Roger Nichols and Paul Williams.

[Barry Williams]

Paul Williams.

[Bill]

Paul. I know a little bit. We've written some songs together, and so I love Paul as a writer. And you sing a song called I won't last a day without you. And what struck me about it is it's almost like three impressions at the same time, because it's past, present, and future in the past. If I'd saw that on TV when I was a kid, I would have been like, ugh, this schmaltzy Broadway Vegas music. Don't want to hear it.

[Barry Williams]

I love schmaltzy and Vegas music. Grew up with it.

[Bill]

Well, God bless. The second impression I have is like, wow, this is a really good song. And then, of course, I dig around. I realize it's Paul and Roger. When I worked with Paul recently, he gave me one of the greatest compliments I've ever gotten. Paul and I worked together a song each song we wrote in about an hour and a half. And at the end of the writing the second song, he said, I like working with you. Remind me working with Roger. He said fast. I thought this is such a deep compliment from a songwriter.

[Barry Williams]

That is nice.

[Bill]

Like you get it. Like we're in this together.

[Barry Williams]

Like let's go. It means too that you're aligned creatively and that's.

[Bill]

It's crazy. I mean, powerful. I've not written a lot of songs with other people. I've written songs for other people or I've come been asked to come in and help with something. But to just sit down with somebody like Paul, who has such an incredible history and say, here's a blank piece of paper, go.

[Barry Williams]

You know, he was a guest star on our variety show.

[Bill]

I did know that. I didn't know that.

[Barry Williams]

And you know, without that variety I have a relationship. I've talked with Paul several times and that's why, because we had that connection.

[Bill]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[Barry Williams]

That is a great compliment.

[Bill]

But the last impression I had is, and it's similar to what I was saying before, but I think it's important in this context to bring up again is I'm watching this now as a 59 year old guy with three kids and you know, of course now that I know you a little bit personally and I'm, I'm looking at you as a young man on stage and you know, and it's like, how can I explain it? It's the fact that you're standing there and you're singing your heart out. She's singing her heart out. It's not about being perfect. It's. We're in this moment and, and that relatability is something that I couldn't have appreciated when I was a kid would have value to me today. The idea of this kind of constant need in American culture that everything be perfectly tuned and perfectly, you know, everything perfect, perfect, perfect. And I think what I think, I'm not trying to speak for you, but I think what I get from your life and, and what I get from my own impressions of your work is being present is the ultimate aspect in this equation that just showing up and just throwing your heart into it. Like you said, work hard and just let the chips fall where they may.

[Barry Williams]

That is something that AI will never replace.

[Bill]

That's it.

[Barry Williams]

Right? And you're right, you can see it and you can feel it.

[Bill]

That's what I'm trying to get at. I Felt it. I felt it. And I think, you know, as a working artist in. In this. In this century, as you are, too, it's almost become this thing where it's like the new punk rock rebellion is to say, I. I don't want perfect. I don't want your version of your fake version of reality. Isn't that attractive? Because ultimately it's anti. Human.

[Barry Williams]

Yes.

[Bill]

It's not to say AI is the devil. It's the human need to play God, and only God can represent perfect. Our aspiration is to be perfect, but that doesn't mean we are perfect.

[Barry Williams]

Or even if it's just pretense, even if it's faked imperfection or contrived imperfection, it doesn't work. But authenticity and presence does.

[Bill]

I love that you're on the Mike Douglas show.

[Barry Williams]

I do, too.

[Bill]

Too.

[Barry Williams]

Several times. And we're Griffin and. Yeah, yeah, that. The whole circuit. John Davidson.

[Bill]

That's kind of, in a way, what I'm. My aspirations are for this show is to ultimately turn it into that.

[Barry Williams]

Well, I think you're well on your way.

[Bill]

Thank you.

[Barry Williams]

On your way.

[Bill]

I believe the. There's a room in this culture for genteel, respectful conversations about things that are interesting and then ultimately added music. So, yeah, hopefully a year from now, if I can expand the show. So we're doing a song together.

[Barry Williams]

Nice.

[Bill]

Right, I'm in. I appreciate it. Thank you. I'm gonna. I'm gonna hold you to that. Okay, just a few more questions. Because you've had such a unique American life, is there anything that you like, a pearl of wisdom that you feel you can share? You know what I mean?

[Barry Williams]

I'm asked a little differently, and I think it's basically the same question, you know, is there any regret? Regret. Regrets.

[Bill]

Actually, I mean it differently, and I'm not trying to correct you. I'm saying is, like, what you. What you want? Like, if people still had stood in your shoes and done everything you've done, every crazy thing, every. You know, I mean, you just were eating bugs. Right. You know, I mean, like, you've had this very interesting ride and loved it. That's what I'm saying. I'm shocked. And I'm a rock star, allegedly. Okay, so is there. Is. Is there any pearl of wisdom that you can share? Like, is there a guiding principle?

[Barry Williams]

I. I said it before. I told you it would come up again, and I mean it. Gratitude. Being grateful for that which is in front of you.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

And taking it with an attitude in a positive way. Yeah.

[Bill]

God, Bless.

[Barry Williams]

Now I want to give you my regret.

[Bill]

Okay. Please.

[Barry Williams]

Because it's the same thing, I think.

[Bill]

Okay.

[Barry Williams]

And it's a different shade of it.

[Bill]

Please, you tell me.

[Barry Williams]

I wish that I had not. Not been as serious about everything that I did at the time.

[Bill]

But that's at the root of your earnestness.

[Barry Williams]

It is. But there's a way to do that and still apply yourself and still be disciplined and still do that with the knowledge that you're on a ride. It's a journey. And I thought, if you know my stakes.

[Bill]

Okay, what was the mountaintop for you?

[Barry Williams]

Well, I'm there.

[Bill]

Oh, okay.

[Barry Williams]

Is being comfortable happy?

[Bill]

Yeah. If.

[Barry Williams]

If you don't know it at the time, you miss it. My stakes were if I didn't do this just so my career would be over.

[Bill]

Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

So I always had that kind of a stake. It was all nothing. All nothing. And it was just a. It was just a continuous one. Oh, I really screwed that up. Oh, that isn't what I wanted it to be. Next time, I'm going to approach it this way. Hey, that worked pretty well. Get on the ride. Stay on the ride. Love the ride. It's the only one we get.

[Bill]

Okay, last question. I mean, this isn't your home, but in a way, it is.

[Barry Williams]

It feels like. It feels like it.

[Bill]

It's sort of crazily beautiful in its own Brady way. Right?

[Barry Williams]

Yeah.

[Bill]

I mean, we're in a real house that started in a soundstage, and here we are.

[Barry Williams]

Well, maybe this is a good lesson about life that we're talking about in presence, because it is practical house. A practical house. But it is also artificial and, you know, as good and as warm and as nostalgic as this feels, when I go home, I'm home.

[Bill]

Yeah. Well, maybe the blessing is you have two homes. You see? Yeah.

[Barry Williams]

Yeah.

[Bill]

Thank you so much, Barry.

[Barry Williams]

Thank you, Bill.