← The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Billy Idol and Steve Stevens | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
01:12:56
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- [00:00]
A
Somehow putting it all together was a hell of a lot of fun.
- [00:04]
B
If you're a guitarist in Europe and you admire the person you're working with, that's all you need.
- [00:11]
C
You were building a genre of music that didn't exist.
- [00:14]
B
You can't help but be proud of it.
- [00:16]
C
Rock is such an incredible thing and, you know, it's like a form of playing with fire.
- [00:21]
A
Everybody's got Billy Idol story.
- [00:23]
C
Your name was, of course, the headline. Gentlemen, thank you for being here today. I'm very excited. As a longtime fan and admirer, it's awesome to talk to both of you because I'm a guitar, of course, first, so I always start with the guitar and then you. Right, right, right. Because back in the 80s, I'm like, what pedal is he using?
- [00:46]
A
Oh.
- [00:47]
C
And then Billy.
- [00:48]
B
Right.
- [00:49]
C
Anyway, congrats. 44ish years of partnership.
- [00:52]
B
Yeah.
- [00:53]
C
Not a perfect partnership, but certainly a perfect partnership and productivity. And obviously your connection is strong because you're here together.
- [01:01]
B
Yeah.
- [01:02]
C
And with the documentary just about to come out here.
- [01:04]
B
Right on.
- [01:05]
C
Yeah, it's exciting. So let's start there. Did somebody put you two together? Was it, was it a, you know, was it a producer or a record label or how did that.
- [01:16]
A
Well, I, I had a manager, American manager, Bill o', Coin, who managed Kiss. And he knew Steve, really. He'd been following Steve's career in New York around the clubs or whatever.
- [01:30]
B
That's right, yeah. The band you're in sort of had a development deal with, with a COIN at the time. And he said, I left the band that I was in. We, we had an ill fated record that was never released. But I stayed with a COIN management and Bill called me, I don't know, you know, at some point and said, hey, you ever heard of Billy Idol? And by then Dancing With Myself was being played by, you know, five times a night in every club. I went, oh, yeah, Generation X. And he said, well, he's moved to New York. We're managing him. You guys should meet.
- [02:03]
C
Wow.
- [02:03]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [02:04]
C
So in the after, did give me your version of. So is, is Gen X waning or is it breaking up or how do you end up in America? Because I, I, I mean, there's variations of that story, but of course I want to hear it from you.
- [02:18]
A
Well, yeah, it's just, yeah, Generation X was sort of falling apart gradually. And then me and, me and Tony were sort of, we were carrying on with Gen X, but in the meantime, we did get this American manager, Bill o', Coyne, who managed Kiss and Stuff and he. Yeah, I mean he was, he obviously was really interested in managing us but I think he really just wanted to manage me really because, you know. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so what started to happen was, you know, dancing myself didn't do sweet ball in England, you know, it got to number 60 or something when we put it out in England, didn't do anything. So it was a little bit like, blimey. I mean, yeah, things are not really happening here at all. And I knew kind of somewhere I knew, you know, if I stay in, in England and start a solo thing, I'll probably end up propping up a bar and that's about it because in England things go through really fast.
- [03:31]
C
I mean it's like this, right? It's up and down.
- [03:33]
A
A record can be over in three weeks even if it's quite successful, you know, and a talk can be over in three weeks. You know, it's like, I mean, depends how big you are. But still. Yeah, I could just see that. Yeah. I loved what we were trying to do with the dancing with myself type music but it just wasn't happening in England and it just sort of made sense. You know. If I start something in England it's likely nothing will happen because they've already felt like they've seen you and it's just happened basically. You know, I just was on Top of the Pops and punk rock and they really feel like they've you. They're already onto something. They're already getting ready for Frankie Goes to Hollywood or something. You know what I mean? So it just sort of made sense to me. Like the best thing I could do if I'm really going to start a solo career is to go somewhere else and what better place. Oh yeah, then New York where I knew there's likely to be other like minded people because that's, that's what we were following the cbgbc.
- [04:31]
B
Yeah.
- [04:32]
A
So it just made sense to you know, go to New York and I'd already been to New York in 78. I'd lived in America when I was a little child. So I remember New York as a three, three or four year old, you know.
- [04:44]
C
Okay.
- [04:45]
A
And things like that. So I had a kind of. I wasn't. To a lot of English people America's daunting because it is 50. They don't even realize it's 50 countries anyway. But I kind of already. Because I'd already lived in America and I liked it. So it was a little bit for me it was like going in a way going home To a certain extent. So I was excited. The idea of starting afresh and maybe the idea would go to America. And then I had no idea that dancing myself was doing really well in the dance chart, in this new wave dance chart that was kind of going on. I had no idea. But once I got to New York, after a few months, I started to hang around the clubs and I started to. I started to see that, hey, they're putting on this song that everybody goes crazy to. And then when I listened to what it was, it went me stiff. If it isn't dancing with myself, you
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B
know,
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A
I don't have to change a thing. Yeah, I've already got. I've already got the idea. You know, that was the thing that was what was great, you know, did.
- [05:52]
C
Did so. Because I'm curious how these things start, because we have the long lens of a beautiful partnership. But does Bill Coin sort of pitch you on his vision of what he thinks Billy will be?
- [06:04]
B
Well, by then, you know, I went up to the office. Well, first of all, they sent over a copy of the. Of the Gen X record, and there was songs like Revenge on it. And John McGee, who had played guitar on it, was doing all this kind of inventive guitar stuff.
- [06:19]
A
And I went.
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B
I went, oh, he's looking for someone who can really expand on the guitar, create.
- [06:25]
C
Yeah.
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B
Textures and, oh, I'm right at home with. If that's what he wants. Yeah, I'm your guy.
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A
So.
- [06:32]
B
So I thought that was really cool. And then I went up to the office and they played me the EP that he had just done with Mony Moni on it, which was like the real, you know, merger of, you know, Guitar Hero stuff, but as well, you know, the dance music thing in many ways, like.
- [06:50]
C
Like a cross between American UK at the time.
- [06:53]
B
Yeah.
- [06:54]
C
It seems obvious to me in hindsight,
- [06:56]
B
there was all these influences that I could hear. Oh, he. He must like sweet, because she is
- [07:02]
C
somebody from New York, you know. You know, Tommy James is our generation.
- [07:07]
A
Tommy James.
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C
Amazing, right? So. So, like, not everybody knows Tommy James, but if you know it, you're like, oh, okay.
- [07:14]
B
That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah.
- [07:16]
C
But what did they give you? Do they say, oh, we think this kid's going to be a star? I'm just curious of those types of conversations. I just love that stuff.
- [07:22]
B
I mean, it was, you know, the
- [07:25]
A
coin was telling people. I've watched it. People, things like that. This guy's a few. I mean, he's incredible. Salesman.
- [07:33]
B
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.
- [07:35]
A
But he wasn't saying that to us. He never tried to interfere with the music and he never. All he just said was, you meet Steve. You know, I was already looking around for other people, but I'd already done the ep. And then when I met Steve, I. And when I saw what Steve could
- [07:51]
B
do and plus, I had from. I went to high school, I went to the Fame School, I was already in Manhattan. I knew every musician in New York at the time. So I kind of said to Billy, hey, you know, if you're looking to put together a band, I know all the musicians and, sir, if you'd consider me as the guitarist. So. But by that time, you know, we were already. We were auditioning other people and I kind of, you know, kind of. Oh, I see what he's looking for. A bit of, you know, it's like a gumbo of guitar things. He wants a bit of, you know, you know, guitar histrionics. But. But, you know, as well as the energy of punk rock.
- [08:30]
C
Yeah.
- [08:31]
B
And, you know, I mean, I'm from Queens. The Ramones and the Dolls are my. My backyard. So it was like, you know, oh, okay, this. This could really work. Could really be all encompassing.
- [08:44]
C
Yeah.
- [08:44]
B
Yeah.
- [08:45]
C
You know, because you were there at the true genesis of punk in the uk, as often happens, because in my generation, happened with grunge, people have a way of looking backwards and they kind of. They put a mental framework on it, like, oh, you guys wanted this and you thought that. But of course, it doesn't work like that when you're actually doing it. So a lot of. Because when in the 90s, we dealt a lot with, like, what I call, like, punk purists. Like, this is punk and punk is like this. And. But. But my sense was punk was just about. You should just do what you feel. If you think you could be on the stage, get up there and just do your thing.
- [09:20]
B
That's it. Yeah.
- [09:21]
A
Yeah. So find out who you are and be it.
- [09:24]
C
Yeah. So when you came to America and you started to have success on your own terms, did you get any kind of weird punk pushback stuff or what? Does that kind of stuff come later?
- [09:35]
A
Yeah, no, of course. I mean. Yeah, I mean, because I was crossing over into this sort of dance mainstream in a way, because through the dance,
- [09:45]
C
to be fair, but you were building a genre of music that didn't exist, in a way.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah, we were kind of.
- [09:52]
C
You were putting together influences that nobody even thought could be commercial.
- [09:56]
A
Yeah, we were trying to put together. Yeah. The sort of. Yeah, I got this producer, Keith Fawcy, he worked with Giorgio Moroda, and it was actually another Bill o'. Coin. I said to Bill one day in England, before I came to America, what we really need is for Want a Better World, we need a disco producer who knows rock and roll or a rock and roll producer who knows. I didn't want to say.
- [10:25]
C
But there's the vision. But there's the vision.
- [10:28]
A
And it was disco. You know, we want someone who somehow knows both worlds. And then Bill got hold of the chap at Casablanca. He knew Giorgio, and I think he asked Giorgio if he wanted to do it. And he said, I don't think I want to do it. But Keith heard the tape and said, you know, boss, I'd like. I'd like to have a crack at producing this guy for your company. I've never. He'd only done a solo record of his own. He'd never really produced anybody. But that was the great thing about Keith was that we were new and he was kind of new, and it was a bit like, we're just going to go there together right from the start. That's a little bit what we sort of. Without saying anything.
- [11:13]
B
Yeah.
- [11:14]
A
And when we did finish the Gen X album, I went and met Keith after the night he was leaving to go, and I said to him, I want to work with you again. And then. So when I came to the States and came to do that ep, they said, who do you want to work with? And I said, well, I want to work with Keith Fawcy. And they would go, but you could work with. With what? You know, they, they. They tried to get, you know, they tried whoever was.
- [11:40]
C
The name of.
- [11:40]
A
It was a million people. And I said, no, this is the guy. And. And. And they went with it. So, yeah, we did the ep and so we already had a bit of a. You know, we already started. We'd already started Billy Idol, really. And that was something Steve, I think, then could see. Yeah, a little bit of where. And also we had a great big. We had some big discussions where we said, this isn't just. This is just some. Me put my toe in the water, because that's the whole point of doing.
- [12:07]
B
Yeah, we just. We. We would go see. I think it was, you know, a matter of, you know, finding the common ground. You know, listen to a lot of records. And I don't think. I don't think you ever played a Sex Pistols record or anything like that. It was all Susie, Susie and Banshees, Lou Reed, all this. And we would go See Suicide. That was a big one.
- [12:31]
C
Yeah, man.
- [12:31]
B
And the Cramps and all this kind of stuff. And it was like. It was exc. It was all kind of. And it wasn't about. By then, you know, this is in New York, this is post Van Halen and you got a bunch of guitar players who are all doing that. Right. And this was like. This was totally not about that. So it was like for me as a guitar player, it was. Oh, I could build an identity as a guitar player with him and Keith. I think that was what was so exciting.
- [13:00]
C
Yeah. One of the great pleasures of doing interviews like this, as I find myself, I go back to the music, but I'm looking at it differently. Not just the fan who listened when the stuff came out. And I was already a fan of Gen X when you came solo, so I knew that music, which was weird because not a lot of people knew Gen X in America.
- [13:17]
A
Right.
- [13:18]
C
So I kind of knew what you were doing. But it seems so fresh and new, obviously. But one of the great pleasures is like now I step back and because I love to produce music myself, it's like I realize now that the three headed monster of U2 with Keith Forsey and it's like there's the magical thing.
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B
That's it.
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C
Of course, everyone focuses on the singer. That's how it all works.
- [13:36]
B
Right.
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C
But, but, but your partnership, the three of you, that was an incredible marriage of ideas, approaches.
- [13:45]
B
And Keith was. I mean, he was just so great. He was great for me as a guitar player. We went to record the first album and he afforded me the ability to. To at least try because any other producer, because the first album ran the gamut. There was a bit of like even Motown guitar things. And I didn't know it, you know, it was like that. But any other producer would have been on the phone, you know, after we leave. Steve Lukatha. Yeah, sure, let me get the session. Keith never did that. He always afforded me the time to like find my way.
- [14:17]
C
Well, it's obvious too, because as a guitar player listening to in. In those times, the first thing that struck me was there was such an aggression to the guitar. But it was a different type of aggression. Yeah, it was more like sexy cool or like, I don't give a. Yeah, you know what I mean? And then you turn around and play super tasteful cool stuff and nobody was really doing that. And now there's a ton of people do stuff like that. I mean, you even hear it in Radiohead, you know, there's this idea of like okay.
- [14:44]
B
Right.
- [14:44]
C
But I'm saying is you kind of way ahead of that curve that the guitar didn't have to be this one lane instrument. Yeah.
- [14:52]
B
I mean, so I mean, you know, if you, if, you know, if you're a guitarist and you're a. And you admire the person you're working with, that's all you need, you know, just play the song, you know. And Billy was always really good at, you know, first take, warts and all. Doesn't matter. Keep. Keep the energy. Keep the element of discovering it.
- [15:15]
C
Okay.
- [15:16]
B
Whereas a lot of guitar players, you know, you know, you go, I can do it better. I can do it. You know, and, and, and. And it was always like, don't first initial idea.
- [15:24]
A
That's because that's the very first thing Steve plays. Yeah. Is. Is incredible for starters.
- [15:30]
C
Yeah.
- [15:30]
A
And it's also got all the ideas in it. It's just. Yeah, yeah, he's gonna probably do. He's gonna work it a little bit more justice. But it's all there somehow in the initial.
- [15:40]
B
But that flying by the seat of your pants thing, I think people react to that. Yeah. And they go, oh, you know, might not be perfect, but it's got.
- [15:48]
C
It's like when I work with Rick Rubin, he didn't want me to do more than like four vocal takes.
- [15:52]
B
Okay.
- [15:53]
C
Yeah. You know, because he thought something happened after that four takes. Okay. Like you lose some magical thing. But yeah, you know, we're guitar players are nerds. Right. So you let us go, we're just gonna like, yeah, I can do it better. We'll ruin the song.
- [16:08]
A
Everything.
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B
Well, this is, you know, we only had a 24, you know, 24 track.
- [16:12]
C
Well, 23, because one was for simply.
- [16:15]
B
That's right.
- [16:15]
A
Yeah.
- [16:16]
B
So you don't have that much room to, you know, you gotta better not erase that original.
- [16:21]
C
As we say in wrestling, you got to get your in.
- [16:22]
B
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So now it's like you have unlimited tracks and. Yeah. Sometimes.
- [16:28]
C
Can you talk about the sort of the songwriting partnership. I know there's covers, but. But obviously you guys are working intimately together to kind of build this language.
- [16:34]
B
Just kind of natural. I mean, we just kind of got down to it, you know, I just
- [16:39]
A
decided that I was going to make Steve my song songwriting partner. That's really what I just decided. When I met Steve and saw what he could do, I just decided, this is the guy. We're going to write songs together. And then we just. That's what we started. That's what we just started. Doing. Yeah, and that's cool. And sort of, you know, both coming with our different ways of approaching music, I suppose. And.
- [17:07]
B
Yeah.
- [17:08]
C
Was there. Because it strikes me that there's. It's weird because at the time I recognized that there was something going on, but now that I'm older and I look at it, there's this beautiful blend of esthetics, different influences.
- [17:21]
B
Sure.
- [17:21]
C
You know, there's a little bit of Gen X, but there's a little bit, like, total futurism, like the Giorgio Moroder type Blade Runner thing going on. Did you guys talk about that stuff or did it just kind of just you feel your way forward?
- [17:33]
A
Yeah, no, we didn't really. A lot of it was. Yeah. Was. We did just sort of somehow or other. We were.
- [17:41]
B
Yeah.
- [17:41]
A
I mean, there's certainly. I mean, Steve's very influenced by science fiction and.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In fact, the old sort of.
- [17:48]
B
I think also, you know, sci fi,
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A
the sort of, you know, stuff like that, we just sort of lent into the things that were touching us off, so to speak. And.
- [17:58]
B
And also we never wanted to repeat ourselves. You know, as an example, after the success of Rebel Yellow, we loved all the dance remixes. I remember we had Gary Langan from Ardenoise do one. And we went, oh, the next record could be a bit more of that stuff. And so it was just, you know, I think the ideas were, let's utilize the technology as much as we can. And I remember when we did Rebel Yell, because I loved on the Queen records, it said no synthesizers because I
- [18:33]
C
loved Brian May, which they later went off when we got the hot space.
- [18:38]
B
So when we did Rebel Yell, I remember saying, you know, let me try and all the. The role that that keyboards would. Would take on that record. Let me try it with the guitar. If I fail at it, then. Then bring those things in. So I think that was. That was part of the sound of that record was experiment with what for what.
- [18:58]
C
For you was the, like, the holy. We'll say the nice way to say holy cow, but, you know, the holy F moment, as my kids say, were you. Because in my mind, it was White Wedding in America. That felt like that's where the bomb went off. Like mtv, you were everywhere. But for you. When was that moment where you were like, holy cow. This is really.
- [19:21]
A
It was. White Wedding was a big. It was because, yeah, the college radio got on it and then MTV gradually expanding, it kind of broke through. There was a bit of a. The radio stations where we don't play music has a punk rock image.
- [19:40]
C
So it seems so silly now.
- [19:42]
A
Right. It seems soft, you know, but I think a lot of people must have been facing that. And then the platform of college radio, MTV just pushed that aside and because, you know, the fans were calling up the radio stations saying they want to. They want to hear this new music. So they soon that all dropped away with the platform of mtv.
- [20:03]
C
Yeah. Did you feel the effect of that overnight? Like suddenly. Are you playing bigger places? Was it instant or did it. Was it.
- [20:11]
A
We were really doing clubs and stuff with White Wedding. But obviously what really happened was it was really Eyes Without a Face. Eyes Without a Face doing this mega ballad because we hadn't really. Yeah, people were used to the Dance with myself, the White Weddings, but they hadn't really.
- [20:27]
B
Right.
- [20:28]
A
Heard a killer ballad from us and that went to number four. And the album was at number six, Rebel Yield. So in a way that broke us to a whole different load of people who weren't even thinking about Billy Idol. I think. I know they used to play on New York radio drive time. They'd do cars. The cars Drive was paired with Eyes Without a face. Be like 10 minutes. But yeah, I was just really into slime. I like reggae, so I really. The low bass, I was into that idea.
- [21:02]
C
Robbie, you thinking like. Yeah. That kind of production.
- [21:05]
A
Yeah, sort of. Yeah, it was a little bit like this. But yeah, at the same time, we're not going to play reggae, but we're going to use that basic idea of.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:13]
A
Of a low bass. Yeah, really heavy bass, which we had to cut the record a million times to get the needle. Not to stuff like that back then.
- [21:22]
B
And we would always have at that time, you know, 32 bars in the middle where we didn't quite know what we were going to. Didn't know because the dance remixers needed that. So we were gonna. You know, they had 32 bars. And I said, well, we don't do ballads. There's gotta be some heavy guitar somewhere.
- [21:40]
A
It's gotta explode.
- [21:42]
B
I don't know. I'll just play. And then it kind of. And then Billy came in with the. The vocal idea. Yeah, we're just like. It was just like stacking. Oh, let's put that.
- [21:52]
A
You know, watching all like Grandmaster Flash and African Bambata and all the. All that was going on. The kids break dancing on the street.
- [22:00]
C
Plus you're in it in New York, right? I mean, you' in the middle of it.
- [22:03]
A
It was all going on. So it was. It was fun to just not think, I'm gonna rap really. But in A way. Put a taste of it. Taste of what we were watching. Yeah.
- [22:12]
B
And it just fit, you know. You know, when it fits, it's got.
- [22:15]
A
Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah.
- [22:18]
C
It strikes me that. Because I was trying to kind of do the math in my head, I feel like.
- [22:25]
A
And then with Rebel Yell, it went from clubs to theaters to arenas that, as, you know, as the. As Rebel Yell did quite well. And then Eyes Without Face took it further in Flesh of Fantasy, even further. By the end of the year, we were playing arenas, so that's where we really saw. Whoa.
- [22:48]
C
Anyway, sorry, I was off this other tangent, but thank you for answering my question, because it's important, because I think most people don't understand how dizzying that feels. You'd had success in England, but you weren't playing arenas. You know what I mean? And then, boom. You know.
- [23:03]
A
And also, too. It's just an amazing thing for an English guy to do. Well, in America, it just. It's one of those things.
- [23:11]
C
I mean.
- [23:12]
A
And there it was happening. I mean, it was like, you know, incredible, really. And. And then I kind of knew, you know, some other people had come from England that hadn't happened, or they'd broken up or something. Yeah. Or they'd. You know. But it was. It was really working for us. And it was so exciting. It was really exciting.
- [23:37]
C
I was trying to do the math in my mind because, you know, again, I'm trying to think these things through to talk to you. And I feel like, you know, punk rock fashion is so ubiquitous in American culture now. I mean, you go to Hot Topic, you can. But I think, like, it pretty much started with you. I'm not saying it was all your ideas, but you're the sort of. You open that door to America because I can't think of anybody else who kind of brought that stylistic feel into the country.
- [24:05]
A
Well, the Clash and Adamant, and that had come, but in a way, they didn't. I don't know why Adamant didn't keep coming to America. It's weird. He's kind of came. The Kings of the Wild Frontier.
- [24:17]
C
Yeah, he had a big. He had that one kind of two, three years where it was really big. And then it just kind of.
- [24:21]
A
Yeah. And then he didn't seem to. It didn't keep coming to America, and then the Clash broke up sort of
- [24:29]
C
at the worst time possible.
- [24:30]
A
At the worst time possible, really. But he left a sort of a bit of a void or a clear field, in a way. And then. So it made. So it looked like that looked like there I was kind of with the whole British punk rock thing.
- [24:45]
C
What was that in your mind? I'm not saying you didn't have your own personal sense of style, but was it the Westwood influence or like, what.
- [24:52]
A
What for you just mixing a load of stuff. In a way, we were kind of. Yeah. Using some of the Westwood stuff. Vivian Westwood. But also kind of thinking back to the 50s and 60s, early 60s. 50s. You know, the leather jacket. Yeah. As opposed to denim. Because in the 70s, most people wearing denim, we sort of.
- [25:13]
C
Yes, I remember it was a bad period for fashion. You had the jean suit, like.
- [25:22]
A
Yeah, it was gradually. And then gradually I was developing my own. Own way of, you know, of it being this. Because I'm. I was always a bit into glam. So I'm a sort of glam punk rocker.
- [25:35]
C
Who did you. Who were your glam. Give me. Because I'm curious on that.
- [25:38]
A
Who.
- [25:38]
C
Who are the glam guys that you. Or girls that you looked up to?
- [25:41]
A
Well, I love Bowie and of course, I love Lou Reed and people like that. You know, I love the Velvet Underground and. And Iggy. I love Diggy as well. And so just thinking of those who. And then. But then somewhere. I loved the 50s, Elvis, you know, so there's a lot. And I. Exciting performers. Sexy, exciting performers. I like that.
- [26:02]
B
Yeah.
- [26:03]
C
Now that we have the hindsight of time, you know, people talk about the MTV era because it's still going, but music is no longer part of that equation. So, like, let's say early ish, 80s to peak, maybe early 2000s. But, you know, obviously people made videos in the UK and that was part of the. The music business. But the art of the video, your ability to both become kind of. I always call them avatars. It's like you almost create this character. It's like there's Billy Idol in the video and there's Steve Stevens in the video. Were you conscious of how important that was gonna be at the time? Because at the time it was sort of an emerging thing. But now people look back very fondly on this idea that there was this marriage of music and video.
- [26:53]
A
I mean, there always had been, because people had made film clips to go along with, you know, forever. But there was this program in England, the Kenny Everett Video Show, Whereas, where it was a comedic program with skits, but in the middle of the pro. It's kind of a call. But in the middle, I saw one
- [27:10]
C
of these clips where they were kind of joking and then suddenly they went to, like a Gen X clip or something.
- [27:14]
A
Yeah, in the Middle of it, they'd. They would do a. They'd have a musical guest and they'd do a very serious. What became a video because it was Kennedy video. They did a very serious, you know, video that basically which had. They had a dance group that they were kind of using. And they. They just did these kind of Very. Very sort of interesting. And it kind of was setting the pace. It also. They. You kind of knew there was companies in England already doing it, like Mallet, mgm, Mallet Mulcahy. And there's a. I never know what the G was, but they. They were like. So. Yeah. You know, that's. Who is doing these. These clips in the middle of the Kenneth video show was. Was Russell McKay or. We were. I worked with David Mallett, who was working with David Bowie, you know.
- [28:05]
C
Okay.
- [28:05]
A
So. So that was very influential and sort of showing you. Showing us what was, in a way gonna happen. And then I. I knew really, MTV is just extension.
- [28:19]
B
Yeah.
- [28:20]
A
Of this Kenny Everett video show without the. Maybe without the comedic aspect. But it was. You kind of knew MTV is going to be.
- [28:29]
C
Because.
- [28:30]
A
Million clips of a million people.
- [28:32]
C
You guys, like, looking back, you. You pick the right lane. Because a lot of people, their videos don't hold up very well.
- [28:39]
A
Yeah.
- [28:39]
C
I don't know, maybe it was because it was new to them or they didn't have a sense that. That the video was an extension of their musical life. You know, we've all done it where the artist shows up and they don't really want to do the video and they kind of phone it in. But at least from. From my perspective, videos was such an important part of who you were. You like. I guess maybe for lack of better, you really owned being in the video.
- [29:03]
B
Well, yeah, you were really involved in.
- [29:05]
A
We're also coming up with a lot of the. A lot of the ideas with. With, say, David Mallett. He would have a guy, you know, a guy. A guy who helps to. But a lot of it was coming from me. I mean, I knew I had to set the pace at the beginning of all of these things. Whether it was the music or the visuals, I knew I had to set the pace because then later on people would know what a Billy Idol song was or they'd know what a Billy Idol video was, but I knew it had to come from me initially. And that's what you saw in the White Wedding video. That's kind of me taking, you know, sort of. Yeah.
- [29:42]
B
We kind of.
- [29:43]
A
We're gonna. We're gonna. You know, we're gonna Do. Yeah. I want. I want this to be like a sort of a graveyard. I want this crazy goth wedding, you know, goth straight edge wedding. But actually been to Phil Linnett's wedding of. Of Thin Lizzie and on one side of the aisle it was the. The wife's. Leslie Crowder is. It was a comedian's family and they were very straight edged. And then our side of the aisle was filling us. It was all us, lots. I remembered that when we did the video and I put all punks on one side, a very straight edge on the other, you know, so it's even silly things like that. But it was fun coming up with it and you kind of knew you had to set the pace because you just knew it had to come from you, I think. Because I suppose Bowie was like that, you know, and you just. You learned from those sort of people.
- [30:36]
C
It's amazing. Bowie's influence on so many artists in so many different directions. With time it becomes even more obvious, you know. Like I recently interviewed a gentleman who was part of the LA early goth scene out here and Bowie was his inspiration and he took music in a completely different direction than you took it.
- [30:53]
A
Right.
- [30:55]
C
So you have this incredible role here. Rebel Yell, Eyes Without A Face, Flesh For Fantasy, Catch My Fall. I'm not saying Blade Runner was an influence, but there's this. I talked about it before a little bit like this idea of proto futurism. How. And you were talking about science fiction, but like how. How much of that was. I'm trying to ask a slightly different way to put it because it seems to be imbued in the musical production. Does it make sense, the question I'm asking?
- [31:26]
B
Yeah. I think it's also embracing technology at the time.
- [31:29]
C
Okay, maybe that's the better way to ask the question.
- [31:32]
B
And also with that album we were at Electric Lady Studios and as a kid growing up, there was a movie theater next door and we. I would go to these all night movies and you know, I was 13, 14 and see, you know, the who kids are all right. And I'd tell my friends one day I'm going to be in that. In that place. So being in there is like a kid in a candy store. There was so much great gear and you know, it's the house that Jimi Hendrix built. So as a guitar player, I think that was. That was also. We were embracing Lynn drums and all of the other elements of that. So.
- [32:09]
A
Yep.
- [32:09]
C
Did you.
- [32:10]
B
Yeah.
- [32:10]
C
Did you see that as an extension of like the punk philosophy, which is like, you know, it's Not. It's not a deconstructionist point of view, but it's like I'm going to take these tools and I'm going to use them for whatever I need to use them for. Does that.
- [32:22]
A
Well, yeah, that's it. And also, it's really what was around us. Keith Forsey was a drummer, really. That's what he started out initially doing. So he was incredible with the Lynn drum. I mean, it's really his feel. You know, it's not a lot of people go, oh, the drum machine, you know, but Keith could put his feel into it. So. So it's like a. It's. It's a drummer's feel was.
- [32:47]
C
It was. The. The thing on that was you guys sort of recorded without a drummer. And then it became like the sound of the.
- [32:52]
A
Yeah, we did it all to a Lynn just. Yeah, sounds fantastic, actually. But we just knew if we put a real guy doing the same thing on top. Yeah, that energy level would just go up even more. And it did.
- [33:05]
B
And I think also, you know, I. Because we both love the Beatles and the Beatles records, each song was a little bit different. So we weren't afraid to put Eyes Without a Face next to Blue highway or, you know, because the record should. It should be a travel, you know. So I think we were cool with having different feels for each. Each song was its own adventure, kind of.
- [33:32]
A
Yeah. You know, we'd grown up with eclectic records. Whether it was, yes, maybe, and Steve's you or with me, I don't know, the Valve Underground or whatever. Whatever it was. We'd both grown up with really eclectic records where people went all over the map. I mean, even the Clash did. I mean, even if you think about punk rock, even the Clash went all over the map. And that's kind of what was exciting to me. And then you kind of knew you had to do that. You had to sort of. Yeah, I was trying to. Yeah, I wanted to expand what this Billy Idol music was. And I was finding out along with you, the audience. I was finding out what it was too, you know. And. And. And it just. Keith had certain abilities and. And. And certain things he liked too, that helped me to expand my music because he kind of had. He liked R B, so he likes. And so we do Hot in the City and we have chick singers and, you know, and things like that. So it was like. It was fun for me too, because I like. I like R B music and sort of putting the two things together as well. R B along with rock and roll and Punk. Somehow putting it all together was. Was a hell of a lot of fun. Yeah.
- [34:48]
C
So I don't really do gossip here, but I have to ask because there's a couple things, but when I first got in the music business in the. In the early 1990s, the tales of. Of your excess were legion. Like, I'm not saying speak to it, but like. Like it was a period of excess. I think we all know that. But I mean, I kept hearing these stories and I'm sure half of them weren't true, but it always involved excess. Your name was. Ok, the headline Billy Idol did this. And this was involved. You want to speak to that? I'm just. It's. It's curious because legends have a way of growing and they're not always true. You know what I mean?
- [35:27]
A
Well, I was super living it. I mean, I was. I was. Yeah, live. You know, you were living for the moment 24 7. So you were doing whatever you thought you needed to do to make the music happen.
- [35:39]
C
I will hand it to the English. When you guys go there, you go
- [35:41]
A
all the way there. Yeah. And it was just. Yeah. Also you were just sort of looking for the next idea a lot. And so you're willing to sort of do a load of crazy things to make. Make life happen so that you have the experiences to write about them. Really?
- [35:56]
C
Yeah. But have you had people tell you stories back to you?
- [36:01]
A
Of course, yeah. There's loads of stuff I don't remember. Everybody's got Billy Idol stories.
- [36:05]
C
That's what I'm. When we first got in the business, it was like, you hear these Billy Idol stories. We worked one time with Roy Thomas Baker, who had produced Queen, and we had heard a crazy story about where he was working with Journey and he was running Steve Perry's voice through a pitch shifter. Cause Steve Perry has such good pitch. It was a way to make him insane. And we'd heard this story that Roy was in a room doing coke and running Steve's voice through a pitch shifter. And Steve kept singing. I don't know how my singing is so bad. And of course I met Roy and I said, is this story true? And he said, no, it's not true at all. So you know what I mean? It's like, it's not so much to answer the myth, it's just to kind of have a laugh about it, if you don't mind. Because I didn't know this story until today, but this idea where they wanted to use a photo of you on an album and you stole the master tapes. And is that story.
- [36:56]
A
They were starting to say we took a little bit of time making Rebel Yell because we just.
- [37:03]
C
We.
- [37:03]
A
We did have a few songs written before we went in, but we didn't have the full complement of saying. So we were taking a little bit of time and they were getting near the deadline, you know, and I had this thing, no deadlines, only headlines. You know, that's what we're really going for. But they was. We'd done this picture for the COVID and they. They were sort of this. They were saying they were going to put it out and I was saying, well, it's not quite this. You know, it's not quite right. There's something wrong with the picture. Look, the way they've touched it up have. And then this guy was sort of starting to tell me. Guy doing the album covers was trying to. Starting to tell me, well, when you enlarge this, it'll. It'll get less, you know, And I just flipped out, man, because it was like, you don't tell me, you know, you don't bullshit. I know, for starters, you enlarge something, it gets worse. The next minute I had this guy against a wall going, you know, I
- [38:01]
C
could, but killing Billy Idol.
- [38:03]
A
So then they were still. But they was. The record company was going, yeah, it's not that bad, you know, I was going, yeah, but this is a super important record for me, and this is my second. So I went down to the. To the Electric lady and whipped in there. It went in an off moment. And I got what I thought were the master tapes and gave them to my heroin dealer, James. And then I knew that would frighten him somewhere safe. And I phoned him up saying, you know, I've given them to my heroine. I wouldn't trust him. You know, they could be bootlegged on the street in a couple of days. You better change that cover. So they. They changed the COVID and I don't think I. I think I had some of the master tapes and all of them. But Keith kind of knew. He went. Looked and he kind of knew I didn't really have all the master tapes, but.
- [38:55]
B
Yeah, but he. He.
- [38:56]
A
But he was great. He played along and told. He's got a. He's got a man. He's going to bootleg him. He's gonna. Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, but there you go. They fixed it and it came out. I mean, like, for sake, why couldn't you just done that? You know, why did. It would take all that aggro.
- [39:13]
B
Yeah.
- [39:14]
A
To, you know, get that done.
- [39:16]
C
But so at the height of this kind of 80s MTV, you know, you're in this pantheon of, like, you know, it seemed like Queen was there, Prince was there, Madonna was there for sure.
- [39:27]
B
Yeah.
- [39:28]
C
Phil Collins, maybe. I don't know. It's just like, how did you take. It's a slight different version of the punk question, because you came from this diy, like a truly organic, from the streets thing, and you. You've always had that, but now you're sort of up there in these bright lights with that level of intensity. Did that affect you personally? Did it. Did it drive you crazy? You were cool with it. I mean, black. Like, looking back now, I mean, how do you see yourself in that moment?
- [39:58]
A
Well, we. We did. We were using drugs and stuff and things like that. We were sort of. We were out there for a year on the road with Rebel Yell and stuff, so. Worst time to get a little crazy in a sense of overdoing things a bit. But. But it was all kind of part of it, and it was all part of the fun of it, in a way. I don't know.
- [40:27]
B
I think. Yeah. I think regardless of all of that, there was a sense of the work ethic, you know, being in the studio. Yeah. There was drugs and all that, but it was still motivated by the music.
- [40:41]
A
We were playing hard, and so we were partying, but we were playing hard. We were working really hard. I mean, that was the thing. It wasn't. You know, we were. We were somehow enabling. We were enabling ourselves to keep.
- [40:55]
B
I think the drug sort of worked to an extent during Rebel Yale, because we'd work all week and then we'd have a bit of a party on a Friday and everybody would come in and we'd play this thing because you're kind of insular, so you want to get feedback and you keep that excitement going. So that party thing was great. And then you'd come back in on Monday and go, that was great. You know, and you'd learn things about playing it for an audience of people and. But then it kind of. When it. When it became for the next record, it kind of. It was more insular, I felt. Yeah, yeah. We were kind of cut off. We did cut ourselves off, and we did. And it was really down to. We were working with a lot of machines. For me, as a guitar player, you can't take a Lindrum out for a beer afterwards, you know, and the technology. Now you can get drums to fit with a groove or a grid. Sure. Back then, we were Struggling and two
- [41:52]
A
days to get a bass line. Vinyl. Yeah.
- [41:54]
B
And drummers just weren't used to playing with clicks and things like that. It was really frustrating. So we ended up using drum machine on the whole record.
- [42:03]
A
Yeah.
- [42:04]
B
And that was really hard. That was really kind. Because you're sitting over the drum machine or the sequencer and stuff and, you know, it's hours and you're trying to keep excited about it, so you'll do a bump or something just to keep going. Because you don't have a band. Yeah, on that. So. Yeah, we didn't.
- [42:20]
C
But. But I mean, you're still one of the most recognizable people, you know what I mean? So is. Is. Was that isolating, too? Like you. When you can't walk down the street like you used to, you can't go to a club like you used to.
- [42:31]
A
Well, that is. That. That is what changed with Rebel Yell, really. I mean, White Wedding. We still were getting known, but it was a Rebel Yell. Changed everything. And yeah, then MTV really, really took off. By the mid-80s, it was starting to be. Be in most of the homes in America.
- [42:49]
B
Yeah.
- [42:50]
A
And then it started to go around the world in 87, because I think right into England and things. So, you know, as it grew. Yeah. The more and more our sort of privacy got completely taken away. Yeah.
- [43:04]
C
It's a unique feeling when there's all that energy coming at you. It. It does different things to different people.
- [43:09]
B
Yeah.
- [43:10]
A
Yeah. I mean, you ended up sort of sheltering in little tiny rooms and space, you know, because if you stepped outside of the room, you. You walk into this kind of crazy world where everybody goes nuts.
- [43:20]
C
Yeah.
- [43:20]
A
Because that was the thing about television. You know, When I first came to New York, it was like, you know, the cool people knew who you were or, you know, you could get into clubs and. But in general, though, you're left alone, you know, like. And then. But then. Yeah. By the time the mid-80s, and it wasn't like that at all. And then the ordinary person was watching mtv. Not even music fans, if you know what I mean. You're starting to get TV people who watch tv. Me recognize you. That's a whole different world. It's that. That's not just cool music people. Or. It was. It changed everything.
- [43:55]
C
Yeah. When grandma recognizes you, that's when you.
- [43:58]
A
You know, you're done for.
- [43:59]
C
Right.
- [43:59]
A
It's kind of what started to happen. And it meant you kind of sheltered more and more in little rooms or whatever. And of course, you're kind of doing substances to kind of have Fun in. In those Tiny spaces.
- [44:12]
C
One of my favorite all time songs is the William Bell I Forgot to Be youe Lover and I Never knew until today that you've got to be a Lover is a variation in that.
- [44:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. I heard it was a reggae song, you know. Oh, who done it was Elise Scratch Perry, George Faith.
- [44:28]
C
Oh, I didn't know that version that
- [44:29]
A
he did all these kind of. He did Midnight Hour, Diana Opportunity. He did all these old hands of Time. If only I could turn back the hands of Time. It's a fantastic record. And he did a version of To Be A Lover and which he said he had Lee, Scratch Perry, George Fayette. Faith wrote it, you know. So I just thought, wow, they just wrote this super R B. I mean super slow as well. So I. I was kind of playing that album and thinking about, well, I could take this song and speed it up and it. It. It's more like a rockabilly song, you know. Have I told you? So I took it to Keith and then I think he. We then turned into kind of a piano boogie, synthesizer.
- [45:19]
B
Yeah.
- [45:20]
A
Thing that came out fantastic because it did have the rockabilly thing to it, but it wasn't. It was more. It was completely modern. Yeah. It was keyboard song in a way.
- [45:30]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:31]
A
But it came out fantastic. And then I found out because, you know, by covering it, I started to find out that, oh, it's not a. It's not a. George. They didn't write it, of course. They didn't raise. This is this William Bell song from the early 60s. In fact, Steve Cropper had played on it. One night I was at a party at Peter Ackroyd's party he was giving and Steve Cropper was there and he came up to me and said, I loved what you did.
- [46:00]
C
Oh, that's beautiful.
- [46:01]
A
To be a lover. And I got a lot of that from a lot of older artists. Who's the bird in Fleetwood Macks?
- [46:13]
B
Yeah, she loved it.
- [46:14]
A
Things like that. You got a lot of people like that. Suddenly you realized who Billy Idol is a bit more People like. I nearly got a Grammy for. I got us up. We were up for a Grammy and everything. So that was sort of the fun of it was. Yeah. Taking these influences. That's me. It was a reggae song. But yeah, William Bell version is even slower.
- [46:34]
B
Yeah.
- [46:35]
A
Than the reggae told you. This is fantastic. Yeah. But it was fun what we did with it. And then we do actually do it and our acoustic Strip it down now
- [46:47]
B
take it from its initial thing and
- [46:49]
A
Steve throws the Guitar break from Rock around the Clock into it. Which is, which is fantastic.
- [46:55]
B
That's the first shred guitar break.
- [46:57]
C
It is.
- [46:57]
B
Yeah, it is the first shred guitar break.
- [46:59]
C
So the, the, the move towards more, more and more keyboards. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm overstating it. Did you like that move? Were you part of that or. Because it, it seems right around there. It starts to, it, it, maybe it was the times, but like it seems like more and more keyboards when I've done it. People hate me.
- [47:18]
B
Right.
- [47:18]
C
And I'm a guitar player.
- [47:19]
B
Yeah. I think it's, you know, I've always been cool with whatever works for the song. You know, I've never been one of those guys that waits for the three minute mark for the guitar solo. You know, it's, it's just never been. I grew up on band music, not, not, you know, soloists. So whatever worked really. And, and, and it was all new and exciting. And one of the first concerts, I'm really dating myself, but one of my first concerts I went to was Emerson, Lake and Palmer. And my dad had brought home this record.
- [47:52]
C
This is Brain Salad Surgery test in quad.
- [47:57]
B
But my dad had brought home this record called Moog. And I thought, wow, what is that sound? That's really like.
- [48:04]
A
Oh.
- [48:05]
B
And then when I heard the nice. And all that stuff. So the key, the, the, the advance of keyboards kind of went along at the same time.
- [48:13]
C
Yeah.
- [48:14]
B
For me as the guitar thing.
- [48:16]
C
Yeah.
- [48:16]
B
So I, I, we loved all the new technology and the keyboards and stuff like that. I never thought it was taking place, you know, taking my space.
- [48:23]
A
Yeah.
- [48:23]
C
I was just more curious from a, from a production standpoint because there's, I
- [48:27]
B
think if it worked or, or, or I'd have it if I thought I could do it in more in a more individual way on the guitar.
- [48:35]
C
Yeah.
- [48:35]
B
To take that role. I would try, but if the keyboard was working. Yeah, they have wise. You know.
- [48:41]
C
So what was the. Again, it's, I'm not interested. The gossip thing. I'm more interested in the musical part because it's obvious you guys have a deep musical partnership. What was the musical part that led you guys to not work together for a while?
- [48:53]
B
Well, I think Whiplash Smile, you know, throwing fair amount of drugs, no communication and Whiplash Smile was not the easiest record to do to play live. I had just gotten my first apartment in New York. I still had family and I was courted by Warner Brothers. I had Ted Templeman sign me to Warner Brothers.
- [49:15]
C
Okay.
- [49:16]
B
That was a very valuable lesson. Because they don't give a shit about our partnership. And, you know, you've got Van Halen's producer saying, oh, you know, if you come over here, you know, and that was an influence. You know, that was. And we. And just in hindsight, we never communicated that.
- [49:36]
A
That.
- [49:37]
B
I never communicated that I was unhappy with. With that. And. And consequentially the record that Billy did afterwards was exactly what I wanted to do, you know, Charm Life is a great record and it's back to the. To the roots of it.
- [49:51]
A
Went back to. And.
- [49:52]
B
And I heard that and I went, oh, he was going. He was going there anyway. So, you know. But it's great. The. All those. All those are valuable lessons and, And. And only contribute to how much. How much, how much.
- [50:07]
C
What was difficult, if you don't mind me asking, what was difficult about making the record for you?
- [50:11]
B
That with Last Smile.
- [50:13]
C
Yeah. From musician to musician. Because that's where I get interested.
- [50:18]
B
Guitars, rock guitars, love ambience. And marrying it with a drum kit somehow glues it together. So a lot of my guitar ideas didn't work against the starkness of the electronic drums and stuff like that.
- [50:35]
C
And you agreed with that, or was it somebody else who sang that?
- [50:38]
B
Well, we tried some real drums on it, but it just didn't work. It just, you know, it was. It had to be tight. It had to be locked in, you know. And also Harold Faltermeier came in to do keyboards on that, so. The keyboards. He's so brilliant. The keyboards came to the front, you know, so some of the guitar stuff. But also at the same time, I mean, what was great is I had an idea for a West Montgomery style guitar solo in a song. And Billy went, yeah, great, do that. So it was never. He. He never said, oh, no, you can't do that. Oh, too much guitar. It just. It was a natural progression and. And I think, yeah, the lack of communication and, you know, you know, and also we lost Bill A. Coyne at that time. So, you know, we lost our manager who was really. It was. Bill and Keith were really good at. At. At work, at. At having our. Both our interests. You know, if ever there was something, you know, I could call Bill a coin and go, hey, I'm having a problem in the studio, you know, and he'd talk to Billy and we'd get together and we'd work it out. No more a coin. And. And. And it was, yeah, lack of communication.
- [51:52]
C
Did you have people in your ear saying, you don't need him and this and that? I mean, I don't know.
- [51:56]
B
Yeah. Warner Brothers Records, you know. Yeah, basically.
- [52:01]
C
But I'm saying, did you have people in your ear?
- [52:05]
A
Not really, but I think it's just. It wasn't so easy. We would use all this technology in the Whiplash Smile tour that a few years later would have been easy, but when we were doing it, it was really difficult. So it wasn't so easy playing live as it had been in the Rebel Yell tour. I think that created a lot of. Of a little bit of tension and then I think we were over. I was overdoing the coke.
- [52:34]
B
Guilty as charged. Yeah. Yeah. This is a classic. It's that Classic Rocks caused us to.
- [52:41]
A
Yeah, I think.
- [52:42]
C
Yeah.
- [52:42]
A
Fall out, you know.
- [52:43]
C
Yeah.
- [52:43]
A
I saw a little bit Wesley, and it wasn't really. It was just a silly, silly falling out. It wasn't really serious in a way, but it went on for a couple of years because Steve did have the solo album and then I carried on. Well, yeah, I mean, going on doing.
- [52:59]
C
Your name's on the marquee. There's no getting away from that.
- [53:01]
A
Yeah. But really. Yeah. I love working with Mike Younger Smith.
- [53:05]
B
He was.
- [53:06]
A
He was great. He was an interesting. It's more of a Southern Texan, so he had that sort of blue sound. It was a whole different sort of thing. It's interesting, though. It worked. But when it comes down to it, Steve's the guy. I mean.
- [53:21]
C
Yes.
- [53:21]
A
That's just. That's really ridiculous.
- [53:24]
C
It's interesting because I, you know, still play with two of my guys from the original band, and it's just like at some point you have to just say, there's a reason we work good together.
- [53:32]
B
Right.
- [53:32]
A
Yeah.
- [53:33]
C
It doesn't matter why God gave us this. That's chemistry or this communication or it's an understanding.
- [53:40]
B
Yeah.
- [53:40]
C
And maybe at the bottom, like a form of love. It's not romantic love, but there's a
- [53:45]
B
romance to it and respect and.
- [53:48]
C
Yeah.
- [53:48]
B
And.
- [53:49]
C
Well, that's obvious. Is talking to both of you.
- [53:51]
B
And I sit down at the guitar and, you know, I play it and I got this guy. His. His voice in it.
- [53:57]
A
It's.
- [53:57]
B
I can't get it out. You know, it's just. That's it. You know, I play, you know, two chords and I go, oh, I can imagine billing my thing. Yeah. It's just there, you know, I saw
- [54:08]
C
this quote, and it's sort of around the time with your motorcycle accident. I'm not asking you to necessarily talk about that. I'm sure you've talked about it. Plenty. But you were talking, I think, about a record that you made, this, the one with the Cradle of Love, but which obviously was a huge hit, but you said something about how great life is, and I've been doing a good job of throwing it away. That kind of stuck out to me. And you could speak to how you want, but, you know, it's that kind of moment where you're like, wow, you know, I've. I've had a pretty good run here. I don't know. Speak to it however you want. I just think it's interesting because not all of us understand, like, what it is to run our heads against a wall talking. I'm. I'm with you on the running of my head against the wall. Does it make sense the way I'm saying, saying it? Like, rock is such an incredible thing, and, you know, it's. It's like a form of playing with fire, you know?
- [54:54]
A
Yeah. So. Yes, that's right. In a way, yes.
- [54:59]
C
Okay. I mean, some of the things that I've done in my life that everybody told me at the time was the stupidest thing I could ever done. That's the stuff they want to talk to me about now because it looks better in hindsight. And, you know, when you're making those types of records and you're running hard, you're right on the edge of something. It's hard to explain what that is. You know, it's like something out of a. A. Out of a novel. You know, you're. You're. You're. You're the character in your own movie.
- [55:21]
A
Well, that's true. Yeah.
- [55:22]
C
Yeah. So if you could just reflect on that because, you know, you. And the reason I even brought up the, you know, the. The mid-80s with you in Prince and Madonna, it's like very few artists have hit the high, high, high part of it all. You know what I mean? So if you could just give me a version of that, like, looking back now, I do. Do you appreciate it? Do you think, wow, I was nuts. I mean, like, what's your sort of take on all that?
- [55:47]
A
Well, it was. I mean, it was really exciting. It's not so easy staying there. I mean, that's the other thing too. And. And also, you know, you can get trapped a little bit by the success, and that's dangerous as well.
- [56:04]
C
And it hems you in, in a weird.
- [56:07]
A
Yeah. Because then, you know, and people still start saying, well, look this. Look at what's being successful.
- [56:12]
C
Yeah.
- [56:12]
A
You should keep on going down that road. And it's A little bit like we never went down one road.
- [56:18]
C
We weren't even thinking like that.
- [56:19]
A
Yeah. It was more like I just did, like. Why did I do Moni Moni? Well, initially I did this dance version because I was just trying to follow up dancing with myself in this new wave dance chart in 1981. Whereas then we sort of. So we carried on doing it live and then we had this number one with Moni Moni, this hard rock version of it sort of thing. And then with Cradle of Love being a sort of number two. And they kind of wanted you to go down this pop. And we'd never gone just down one road, you know, we hadn't. And that was a little frightening to feel that, you know. And in a way, I rebelled against it by doing Cyberpunk. In a way, really what I should have done is I should have. It done. Done. Should have followed up Charmed Life because it was a new record label as well. It was going to Capital or whatever. I should have followed up Charmed Life with another Charm Billy Idol record and then done Cyberpunk, you know what I mean? But that's not what I did, you know, I. With this new label, I tried this whole other thing that it was deliberately. Wasn't really trying to be successful. It was actually kind of an indie record. I was almost. Cause I'd seen this Pro Tools machine that Trevor Rabin had that my manager that I now had, Tony Dimitri Artist, managed Trevor Rabin, who was being given this computer machine, this early version of Pro Tools, so that they could see how a musician would use it. So I actually saw this, like, wow.
- [58:00]
C
And you were early on that this is gonna be like early 90s.
- [58:03]
A
Everybody in the world's gonna be able to at home, right?
- [58:07]
C
Well, from a punk ethos point of view, what is more egalitarian than anybody
- [58:11]
A
can make music right at home and to a high quality. And so I thought, I'm going to make a whole record using this. Using this new way of a little bit kind of carrying on a little bit from Whiplash Smile in a way that using all that technology, I was now seeing where it was going. And I couldn't help but be excited about that. And then I was sort of listening to a lot of music from England. The Prod, Early Prodigy, Future Sounds of London, the Orb. I was listening to all this stuff. And so somehow I wanted to somehow put rock and roll and all of that together.
- [58:48]
C
But the funny thing is, is you, You. You were right. Your. Your. Your directional antenna was actually very accurate. You were just too early.
- [58:56]
A
Yeah, it's just a little bit too early. And then we didn't really have a hit single on it.
- [59:00]
C
So that's the death of it all, you see. Yeah, if you had one hit single, they would have said, you made a great record. You're a genius again.
- [59:06]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [59:07]
A
Yeah.
- [59:08]
C
But I, I, in, in, in doing the research, you know, because 93 is like, where my whole thing's taking off. So I didn't really remember the Cyberpunk record. So I'm, you know, I'm doing my research on you and you, of course, and, And I come and this is this long thing about the controversy arounding and all these people are mad at him because of. How dare he call himself a cyberpunk. I was like, I stumbled into this opponent's nest of, like, opinion and. But you were. But the funny thing to me is you were right. Like, you called it very early on.
- [59:43]
A
I was the first artist to actually have his Internet address on the album cover. I think I was three months ahead of Peter Gabriel. I think he'd. Yeah, things like that. It was really good fun.
- [59:54]
C
Were you, were you a William Gibson fan? Because that's a good coin, that term.
- [59:58]
A
Yeah, I did get in. I did read a lot of Neuromancer and all that sort of stuff and. But I actually got to know the director of the Lawnmower Man, Brett Leonard.
- [60:10]
C
Okay.
- [60:10]
A
And I was getting cahoots with him. He was going to do a Lawnmower man too. And that was. It was going to become a franchise. And he'd. I was. He'd written this great script, the story, it was fantastic. This. It was like a love story, but, but la. In the future where people are living on the. Are living on the flyovers, you know, they're living on the roads. Flyovers. And there's this new. There's this Internet drug, mine, Fire. And so I was going to. He was going to do this film, The Lawnmower Man 2, which is going to be called Mind Fire, all about this drug, this kind of Internet drug. And then I was going to do the music. And that's what Cyberpunk was supposed to be. It's supposed to be the. This, this soundtrack to this film that never happened. But what happened is a record. The film company, they decided they didn't want to make this franchise, that they actually did end up making a Lawnmower Man 2. But it wasn't with Brett Leonard. And it was, it was nothing. It wasn't there. It was just a cheap it was. It wasn't really trying to create a franchise was. His movie would have done it. It was really great. And so that's what I was supposedly doing was a soundtrack. Well, that all got. That kind of got turkey. So when it all fell through, I was left with making this record, a Billy Idol record, which it was never quite meant to be. Yes, but. But at the same time, I thought, well, I was really excited about. Yeah, I was really enjoying this idea that you could. That in the future everybody's going to be able to make. They're going to be using this equipment. And that's exactly what happened.
- [61:48]
C
So because William Gibson, he talked about people living on bridges, they would repurpose public projects for housing. Designer drugs was part of it, of course, obviously, the ability for people communicate on the Internet. So that turned out to be very pressing as far as what was coming. And I thought it was really interesting that you were at the very beginning, you're like, look, all this stuff is coming and you just got hammered.
- [62:12]
A
Yeah. Yes, I did. Walked right into it. But at the same time, I really. I really had a lot of fun doing the record. I really enjoyed it. It was. We made it in my house. Yeah. For a start, we did the drums and everything because we set up the Pro Tools in my house, an upstairs room in my house. And we did everything in my. My house. Like an indie. Indie record. Yeah. Like you would, you know.
- [62:37]
C
Did it. Did it. Did it strike you as ironic when, you know, because at the peak. Peak 90s, Gen X grunge, you know, so much of what you'd started was basically, now it's. Now it's pop, you know, Like Green Day's an obvious example, but I'm saying is like, all the things that you'd started in the. In the mid-70s with Generation X is like now it's like total mainstream. And now it's Even bigger now, 30 years later, it's even bigger.
- [63:01]
A
Yeah, it's even bigger.
- [63:02]
B
Yeah.
- [63:02]
C
Yeah. Do you look back and sort of you feel good about that? Do you think I should have done something different? Like, how does all that register in you? Are you proud or are you.
- [63:11]
B
You?
- [63:12]
A
Yeah. No, I think. I think I was doing what was right for me and I wasn't. I wouldn't have gone back to doing what Green Day was doing or try, you know, I wouldn't have done that, you know.
- [63:26]
C
No, I don't mean it that way. I mean, it was like, you know, you look back and you see your influence and certain contemporaries. Influence.
- [63:32]
A
Yeah. It's just. Dina knew that there's no way I can suddenly. I wasn't going to suddenly try. I did.
- [63:37]
C
Oh, no, I don't mean it.
- [63:38]
A
No, I know you don't. I know you don't.
- [63:40]
C
Okay, great. Thank you.
- [63:40]
A
Yeah.
- [63:41]
C
No, I just didn't want you to come out like.
- [63:43]
A
Yeah. I was going to carry on mining the sort of where I. Yeah. The Billy Idol scene that I was sort of following, really. And I. I guess maybe it's a
- [63:53]
C
question of credit or.
- [63:55]
B
Or I think. Yeah. I think the. The. The artists that are influenced by Generation X and what we did in the 80s, they're so cool about it, you know, and. And you can't help but be proud of it and go, yeah. You know, if we. If. If we influenced the good stuff, great. You know, hopefully we didn't influence the.
- [64:16]
C
Yeah, I think. I think that's the cool thing about your partnership. You guys made a lot of great decisions that have held up really well, and they were risky decisions. They weren't decisions of conservative perspective that when you started having hits, you actually went further.
- [64:32]
B
Right. That's right.
- [64:33]
C
I think that's what most people don't appreciate. It's like when you're actually starting to have success, you're surrounded by. That would be totally cool with you. Just keep doing the same thing.
- [64:40]
B
Yeah.
- [64:41]
C
To actually risk and roll the dice and keep trying to expand who you are and what you're capable of. That's. That's real risk.
- [64:47]
B
Yeah. We try not to repeat ourselves.
- [64:49]
C
Yeah.
- [64:49]
B
Still.
- [64:51]
A
And learn stuff as you go as well you want to. That's what I felt we did with each album. We kind of. We. We. We didn't just stay. Like we said, we didn't just stay copying. We. We last. Did we sort of deliberately, Lee?
- [65:05]
C
Yeah.
- [65:06]
A
Moved on a little bit and we'll move into a different area.
- [65:09]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [65:10]
C
Okay. So a few more things. Thanks for indulging me. We share someone in common. Jonas Auckerland. I worked with Jonas back in the day, and I know he's made your new documentary. So at the time we're taping, this is actually coming out today, but by the time it airs, it'll be out. But you feel good about the document. I know you were saying before we started taping that it took a while to make, but you feel good about it. Is it weird to see your life in review? I mean, how do you.
- [65:34]
A
It is a little weird to see it's gotta be lifetime. Yeah. You never occur. It's all these sort of Things. You just never imagine any of this when you start out because.
- [65:44]
C
Yeah.
- [65:44]
A
You've no idea. You've no idea if you can even do it. You know, you're gonna get anywhere, let alone one day. People are gonna encapsulate your life down into two hours.
- [65:56]
C
Yeah.
- [65:56]
A
You just never think about that. So. So. But it's pretty wild to get here. Here. And. And then I think the documentary came out really well, and Jonas did a great job.
- [66:07]
C
Yeah.
- [66:08]
A
As well as Mark Monroe came in. And I think the two of them really.
- [66:12]
C
Yeah.
- [66:13]
A
Really brought it home, and I think it came out great.
- [66:17]
C
How do you feel about it?
- [66:18]
B
It was great for me because there's a lot of. A lot of stuff that I didn't really know about. I love all the. All this stuff. You know, there's some incredible archival stuff. All the years. The Generation X years. And the interviews are really good. So for me, I was able to, like, be a fan and watch. Watch that. Yeah, it's gotta be a little bit weird, but it's so well done. So well, you know.
- [66:47]
C
Well, Jonas is a great, smart guy and.
- [66:50]
B
And. And if anyone deserves a documentary, it's this guy right here.
- [66:54]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [66:54]
B
You know.
- [66:55]
A
Know.
- [66:56]
C
As you know, I'm sure you've heard it, like, AI is the talk of. Of the music business at the moment that we're sitting here.
- [67:03]
B
Sure.
- [67:04]
C
So if you want to wade in there. How. How you. How. Because I. The. The joke I'm making is AI feels like a marauding army that's coming. You know what I mean? And no one's quite sure what's going to happen when the army shows up, like, who's going to live and who's going to die. You know what I mean? It's gonna. It's gonna change a lot of things. I think we all feel that, but I. I don't kind of like you with cyberpunk. You can see it, but we're not quite sure how it's all going to shake up.
- [67:26]
B
Well, it's interesting because my wife is really Internet savvy. She grew up in the. In the age of computers and stuff, and she's pointed out songs that she. I'm not going to name names, artists of songs that she believes like Chat GPT has written the lyrics to. Oh, absolutely. And she's shown them to me. And I go, oh, yeah, I wouldn't have noticed that. And
- [67:49]
A
guy.
- [67:49]
C
A guy recently told me, because I asked somebody who works in Nashville, he said, almost every lyric in. In Nashville is now. Yeah, has Chat GPT Influence.
- [67:58]
B
That's. That's exactly that.
- [67:59]
C
They finish the lyric and then they run it through chat. GPT.
- [68:02]
B
Yeah.
- [68:02]
A
To see what it. Yeah. Like a word process.
- [68:04]
C
Yes. Just like spitting out random.
- [68:07]
A
Yeah. See what it. What it.
- [68:09]
B
The crazy stuff is, though. There's someone that's doing these crazy easy AI versions. And they did one of Rebel Yell, and actually it was orchestrated and I thought, oh, we should do an album like that. Because it was.
- [68:23]
C
That's where it's dangerous, though. Right.
- [68:24]
B
Because the orchestration was so well done. It was operatic and everything. And I thought, oh, we could take a whole catalog and do that, you
- [68:32]
C
know, but that's what that's like. It's kind of a deal with the devil. Right.
- [68:35]
A
It really is.
- [68:36]
C
Because do I want to use it to write songs or what people are doing now? They'll write a song on acoustic and then pump it in there and then do the mariachi version, do the reggae version, do the. Do the future version. Whatever. I feel that's like. It's like a Faustian bargain. Like, you open that door.
- [68:52]
A
Yeah.
- [68:53]
C
Because we've all. We know how to write songs organically.
- [68:55]
B
Right.
- [68:56]
C
No one could take that from us, no matter what happens from here.
- [68:59]
B
Yeah.
- [68:59]
C
Do you have any opinion on. I mean, it's. It's. Obviously, it's a wide question, but how do you feel about that? Because as an OG Pond punk, it might ultimately be the most punk thing ever. So I don't want to assume what your opinion would be.
- [69:13]
A
Yeah. I don't know. That's. It's a little frightening, I suppose. But would we do that?
- [69:18]
B
I don't. No, I just.
- [69:20]
A
I don't think there's a pop as a.
- [69:22]
B
As a. As a.
- [69:24]
A
Now you're giving me the idea, but
- [69:27]
B
I think as a. As a group or I think for us, for a solo. Solo artist, maybe it's useful, but we just. We enjoy the collaboration.
- [69:38]
A
Yeah.
- [69:39]
B
You know, and I'm sure you get in with your band and it's all. It's all part of, you know, that's. That's fun, you know, you don't want to take. Siphon the fun away from it.
- [69:48]
A
So I don't know how.
- [69:49]
B
How it would apply to what we do.
- [69:51]
C
Yeah.
- [69:52]
B
But there's some incredible. Have you seen the Elvis movies, though? Parody movies? Elvis does. I don't know, is he's Night of Living Dead and Elvis. Is it. I mean, I got to admit, it's pretty cool.
- [70:05]
C
Yeah. Because there's this little controversy going on. It's a Longer story, so I'll skip it. But. But it's the idea that a gentleman has passed away. So a fan has created an AI account and they're posting every day. So if you, if you're a fan of the person, you can watch the AI version, talk every day and it won't be long. It'll be. You'll be able to call up the AI John Lennon or something and have a conversation because there's enough information that they can feed it into the AI that it can like talk like them, think like them, and it's only going to get better.
- [70:41]
A
Wow.
- [70:42]
C
So I had this conversation with my wife, which is like, you know, because my wife's a lot younger than I am, so it's not inconceivable at some point she would face the world where somebody would be creating an AI version of me. So we almost might have to create an AI version of me now to almost patent it and perfect it so that if anything happened to me, we already control the AI version of the
- [71:07]
A
business for the hologram.
- [71:08]
B
Yeah, right.
- [71:09]
A
Yeah, that's where we're at.
- [71:11]
C
So, you know, I mean, you know, like AI Christmas with Billy. You know what I mean? Call you and have a great Christmas. But it's aiu, you know what I mean? So what do you think? OG Punks AI Good or bad? Jury's too soon. Want to take a leap on that one? I think that's a good way to end.
- [71:31]
A
Wow.
- [71:32]
C
It's wild, right? I mean, it's just. It's so wild because.
- [71:36]
A
Yeah, it's not like you don't. You use everything in the, you know, Bowie, the cut up techniques, you use everything.
- [71:42]
C
Exactly.
- [71:43]
A
He used a word processor as well, so he probably would, he probably would have used chat.
- [71:48]
B
I think if the artist is in control of it, great. It's when the label, labels become in control.
- [71:54]
A
There you go, Steve.
- [71:55]
B
That's really the danger because as you said, if the artist has passed on and the label continues. Yeah, that's scary.
- [72:05]
C
I think the. Since we're all fans of 60s music and 50s, I think what you're gonna see is they're gonna start going back to those catalogs and running it through AI and having it come out with different stuff.
- [72:16]
A
Wow.
- [72:16]
B
Yeah.
- [72:17]
C
Like for example, if you could go back to Elvis, Sun Recordings with Sam Phillips, pump it through AI and make it sound like Elvis recorded it yesterday, would you listen to it? I mean, it's tempting, right? Because once you open that door, how do you. That's it. That's why I think it's this kind of thing that's coming.
- [72:35]
B
Yeah.
- [72:35]
A
Could you make those Sun Records better that they're perfect?
- [72:40]
C
That's. That's the right answer. That's the right answer. Yeah, but that's why they're perfect.
- [72:47]
B
Yeah.
- [72:47]
C
Because that's why. Thank you both.
- [72:49]
A
Yeah. Thank you, man. Awesome. Great.