Carnie Wilson | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Carnie Wilson | April 30, 2025

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Overview

In this engaging episode, Billy Corgan welcomes Carnie Wilson, iconic musician and daughter of Brian Wilson (the Beach Boys), for an in-depth and candid conversation. The discussion explores her musical upbringing, creative process, the rise and challenges of Wilson Phillips, family legacy, personal struggles, and the evolving landscape for artists in the music industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Musical Memories and Family Legacy

• Growing Up Surrounded by Music

  • Carnie recalls her earliest musical memories in her parents’ living room, blasting The Carpenters on huge black speakers, experimenting with volume (“the windows would shake”) and falling in love with music at a young age.

    "We would just totally play with fire. Just blast it as loud as we could... the Carpenters. So, you know, tucking to myself and feeling, you know, really." (00:41 - 01:10)

• Discovering Her Own Path

  • Despite being part of a legendary lineage, Carnie emphasizes having her own unique journey and phases with music.

    "I really did have my own. My own experience with it, and. And I went in phases, you know, discovering different music at different ages." (02:56)

• Influences & ‘Guilty Pleasures’

  • Embraces her deep love of 70s music (Elton John, Pablo Cruise, Ambrosia, Fleetwood Mac) and groove-based artists like Michael Jackson.

    "That’s the thing that got me... that’s why I love, like, Michael Jackson’s music. Cause it just. He just. He had these, like, rhythm, like these groove things." (04:06 - 04:21)

• Relationship with Songwriting

  • Always a collaborator, Carnie has never written an entire song alone, citing ADHD and a love for bridges and reacting to ideas.

    "I still have never written a song by myself... I think I'm just terrified to tap into it." (05:11 - 05:45)

Navigating Family Dynamics & Expectations

• Parental Pressure and Protective Roles

  • Carnie discusses growing up in a chaotic household, feeling protective over her younger sister, and the resulting drive and inner panic feeding her art.

    "I have to be strong and great and be the one to have, like, the answers and the protector... and then inside, I think there was panic." (08:22 - 09:09)

• On Her Parents’ Relationship

  • Shares the story of how her parents met, noting her mother was only 14 at the time, highlighting the supportiveness of her maternal grandparents.
  • Emphasizes her mother’s musical interests and the group Spring with her Aunt Dede, noting Brian Wilson’s deep affection for her mother’s singing.

    "He loves my mom’s voice. I said, who’s a better singer, Barbra Streisand or my mom? Your mother. It’s so him to do that." (16:48 - 17:06)

The Creative Process & Wilson Phillips Formation

• The Joy of Harmony

  • Carnie’s obsession with singing harmony from a young age:

    "I love singing harmony with anyone. Like a bum. I would sing with a bum." (21:15)

• The Organic Birth of Wilson Phillips

  • Initially came together for a charity record with other “kids of 60s rock stars”—only Carnie, Wendy, Chynna, and Owen Elliott followed through, leading to the creation of Wilson Phillips.

    "So it was the Wilson girls, and then the Phillips family and Cass Elliott." (23:44) "And we started singing Dog and Butterfly, and it was like, okay, let's hear what it sounds like when Wendy, Chyna, and I harmonize... It was just. It just like the sound enveloped us and just. It was the most warm sound ever." (24:51 - 25:28)

• Early Demos & Landing a Record Deal

  • Memorable early meeting with producer Richard Perry, who, while “rolling a joint,” listened to the group sing five words from “Wild Heart” and immediately saw a future for them.

    "I see the Beatles... you need to call your band Pretzels with Mustard. And we're like, okay, you're a. You're clearly wasted and have the munchies.” (27:09 - 28:20)

  • The push to write their own material led them to songwriter Glenn Ballard, whose mentorship was pivotal.

    "Everything changed the moment we met Glenn. It was the greatest thing that ever happened to us ever, ever, ever, ever.” (30:13 - 30:15)

Success, Struggles, and Industry Realities

• The Lightning in a Bottle of the Debut Album

  • The creative collaboration behind Wilson Phillips’ first album, “Hold On,” and the massive, unexpected success (10 million sold, Grammy nominations, 125 weeks on charts).

    “I just remember it was the most creative, magical thing I’ve ever felt. And it was very purposeful.” (33:49 - 34:03)

• Backlash, Fat-Shaming, and Image Pressures

  • Openly discusses industry bullying about her weight, humiliation during videos, and the painful push for “sex sells” by new managers on the second album.

    “What are we going to do about this weight problem of yours?” (Record exec, 55:32)

• Peak and Collapse

  • Debut album’s overwhelming success contrasted by being labeled “a failure” after selling only 3 million of the follow-up. Chynna’s desire for a solo career breaks the group apart.

    "We were told we were a failure after the second record came out." (43:47)

  • On group tension:

    "It became competitive... there was kind of like this, I wanna stick out, I wanna go solo, it upset me and I had to accept it." (50:22 - 51:56)

  • On body image/media scrutiny:

    "I sort of embraced my role. I kind of liked it. It was kind of like a power thing, I have to admit. I was different. You weren't gonna with me." (57:14 - 57:22)

Personal Evolution: TV, Self-Acceptance, Sobriety

• Transitioning to Television

  • After Wilson Phillips, Carnie dives into a prolific on-screen career (talk shows, acting, reality TV), driven by both survival and curiosity.

    "Was it the survivor in you? ...I went on Howard Stern and a woman said, anybody that can stand up to Howard Stern needs a talk show.” (63:00 - 64:05)

• Facing Sobriety & Healing

  • Details her struggles with chronic depression and alcoholism, public vulnerability, and journey through therapy, gastric bypass, and 12-step recovery.

    "I spent a year asking everybody if they thought I was an alcoholic... I got sober 12-step, and I'm still in it. And it's the greatest thing that ever happened to me." (85:58 - 86:09)

  • Meeting her husband Rob, raising children, and finding joy in harmonizing with her daughters—a new form of familial legacy.

Reflections on Family, Healing, and Creativity

• Complex Relationship with Her Father

  • Emotional healing through music, first joint recording as adults, and the importance of acceptance with Brian Wilson’s limitations but also his genius.

    "He is so grateful to the people that love his music... he’s also more aware of everything than people realize." (89:38 - 90:22)

• Legacy and the Artist's Burden

  • Carnie and Billy meditate on the mythic nature of her father’s music, the price of channeling such creative forces, and the difficulty of escaping one’s past or destiny.

    "He's got so much that he wishes he could take back... his childlike quality... but he has a problem expressing love. It scares him." (91:42 - 92:51)

• The Role of Mothers & Women Behind the Legacy

  • Touching story of her parents’ enduring love; tribute to her mother's strength and foundational role in Brian’s story.

    "He still loves her so much, and she loves him so much... She just said, I love you, Brian." (96:21 - 96:53)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Birth of Wilson Phillips (Richard Perry’s Advice)

"The only way you guys are gonna get any respect in this business is to write your own music. You have to write your music."
— Richard Perry (30:04)

On "Hold On" and Artistic Purpose

“It was nearly finished. Wasn’t quite all finished, but it was nearly finished... and when the harmonies would come in, it was just. We knew it was something really big.”
— Carnie Wilson (34:50 - 35:20)

On the Industry’s Image Pressures

“Our record company president said, you're a failure. And when. Those were his words, you failed.”
— Carnie Wilson (61:43 - 62:10)

On Vulnerability

“I think vulnerability is the most courageous thing ever... to just be like, I feel weak or I feel sad, or I feel. You know, and I've always had kind of a low chronic depression, and I've never hidden that.”
— Carnie Wilson (78:23 - 78:48)

On Brian Wilson’s Genius

“His understanding of polyphony is frightening. And until you're in it with him and you see it in action, you're like, holy cow.”
— Billy Corgan (89:28 - 89:38)

On Creative Inheritance

“He said, I didn't write it, God did. So he's extremely spiritual. And I don't know what God it is, but it's his own God.”
— Carnie Wilson (94:10 - 94:58)

On Past and Present

“Where are your feet right now? Where are you right now? And if I keep thinking about that past stuff. Cause he's haunted by his past.”
— Carnie Wilson (91:01 - 91:39)

On Her Distinction

“I was different. I was different. And you weren't gonna with me. Cause I had that and that's part of my. The armor I've had.”
— Carnie Wilson (57:14 - 57:22)

Noteworthy, Funny, or Touching Anecdotes

• Richard Perry, Pretzels, and Magical Beginnings:
  The humor of being told to name their band “Pretzels with Mustard” while the producer was high (27:00 - 28:20).

• Family Chaos and Saving Her Sister:
  Carnie recounts pulling her sister from a backyard well—establishing her lifelong role as protector (08:22 - 09:09).

• Don Henley & Brian Wilson:
  Brian signs Don’s book, first writing “The Eagles are a great group,” then crossing out “great” for "good" because “the Beatles are great, the Eagles are good.”

  “Because the Beatles are great, the Eagles are good.” (101:13 - 101:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Family Musical Atmosphere & Early Memories: 00:32 – 03:14
• On Collaborating, ADD & Songwriting: 05:11 – 07:49
• Protectiveness & Emotional Development: 08:22 – 09:09
• Rise of Wilson Phillips: 20:14 – 35:20
• Industry Pressure & Backlash: 43:45 – 47:12; 53:14 – 62:10
• On Body Image & Public Scrutiny: 54:26 – 59:18
• Life after the Band/Television Pivot: 63:00 – 66:46
• Personal Healing, Sobriety, & Family: 78:09 – 87:20
• Relationship with Brian Wilson: 88:13 – 93:43
• Legacy, Mythology & Artistic Mystique: 93:34 – 95:16
• Mother’s Role & Enduring Love: 96:21 – 97:50
• Brian Wilson’s Humor: 101:13 – 101:41

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Summary & Tone

This episode is a rare blend of reverent nostalgia, raw honesty, and humor—matching both Corgan’s curiosity and Carnie Wilson’s openhearted warmth. Carnie’s willingness to delve into her vulnerabilities, family complexities, and creative passions delivers a powerful message of acceptance, resilience, and authenticity.

Fans of Wilson Phillips, the Beach Boys, or anyone fascinated by the realities behind pop stardom will find this a deeply humanizing, insightful conversation about artistry, family, fame, and survival.

Transcript

[A]

See, Right. That's one of my guilty pleasure songs.

[B]

Oh, God, I love it. This is getting really deep. But this is where songwriting.

[A]

That's what we're here to do. Because. No, because there is a connection. You understand where I'm going?

[B]

Yeah. He's like, you need to call your band Pretzels with Mustard. And we're like, okay. You're a. You're clearly wasted and have the stone, too, though. Who knows? I just remember it was the most creative, magical thing I've ever felt.

[A]

I'm curious because you grew up in a musical world. Like, when do you first remember hearing music? Do you have, like, that first memory?

[B]

Yeah, I don't know if I have, like, a first memory, but I have memories of being in our living room. My parents had a really great stereo. So system that we could blast super loud. And we used to test it. Like, how loud can we really go? There were these huge black speakers, and they were on the ground, actually. And it was just. We would just totally play with fire. Just like blast it as loud as we could to. The windows would shake. And. I mean, how. How destructive can that be when. That's the Carpenters, right? Cause that's what we would blast, would be the Carpenters. So, you know, tucking to myself and feeling. You know, really.

[A]

But anything loud has a kind of a. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know what it is about volume of music. I really love listening to my music very loudly when I'm in my car. It's kind of dangerous the way I listen to it. But I don't know if it's because my hearing right now. I don't know. But it's kind of always been that way.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. So I remember the first memories would be, like, just in the living room, mom and dad stereo. And then it was Captain Fantastic. It was.

[A]

That would have been out 73, right?

[B]

Yeah. So I was born in 68, so, like five or two or something.

[A]

I'm just a little older than you see. I'm 67.

[B]

You look great. God. Jesus. No, I'm 56, so. Yeah. Yeah. So I just remember loving. Just loving it from young, young age.

[A]

Because I grew up in a musical household, too. Yeah. So I feel like kids who grew up with musician parents, you know, we grew up in that atmosphere. There's always weird people hanging around.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And music and

[B]

it is an atmosphere.

[A]

Yeah. So I was curious for your own personal connection, because, you know, as. You know, when you grow up with a famous parent, people kind of put their own version of that on you. But your musical life indicates to me that you had your own experience with music and your own trajectory.

[B]

Absolutely. You're right about that. People love to talk about that lineage, and it is a powerful thing and something I'm so proud of. But, yeah, it's like, I really did have my own. My own experience with it, and. And I went in phases, you know, discovering different music at different ages.

[A]

But tell me some of the people that you were listening to, like, when you first were like, okay, this is my music. I'm. I want to listen to this record.

[B]

Yeah, well, that. That was. I mean, I am total 70s horror for music. Love anything in the 70s. I'm completely, like, blown away.

[A]

Give me some guilty pleasures.

[B]

Okay. Like Pablo Cruz, you know, like, you

[A]

know, he's a music supervisor now. Did you know?

[B]

Is he.

[A]

He's from when somebody told me he's the number one music supervisor guy in town here.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

In la, his, like, if you need a scene with, like, some kind of music, you go to Pablo Cruz. He's your guy.

[B]

Oh, my God. Well, like Ambrosia.

[A]

Remember Jay Ferguson?

[B]

Of course. Yes.

[A]

Thunder island.

[B]

Was it. Yes. Love a song.

[A]

See, right. That's one of my guilty pleasure songs.

[B]

Oh, God, I love it. I love a groove. Like, that's the thing that got me was like, that's why I love, like, Michael Jackson's music. Cause it just. He just. He had these, like, rhythm, like these groove things. And I think all his songwriting, like, started with that. With some kind of groove in his mind.

[A]

Yeah, you always think, like, he's always very rhythmic in his writing.

[B]

Yeah, rhythmic, yeah. So I was drawn to that. But definitely, definitely, you know, Fleetwood Mac. I think my first love was Elton John. That. That definitely was. I was five or six. That's when I. He's the one. He is the one that started it all. Not really the Beach Boys or anything. I mean, I remember growing up with all their music, and I loved it. But it was. It wasn't till later, till I had gained a lot of respect. 13 and 14. Yeah.

[A]

But again, I'm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All due respect to your family, but I'm curious for your musical journey, because again, when I listen to the music that you ended up doing in your own life, in your songwriting, too, you know, there's not. It's not. You're like. You don't sound like the daughter of the Beach Boys.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

You have your own musical identity.

[B]

Definitely. Thank you for saying that. I mean, it was a collaboration, you know, I mean, I still have never written a song by myself and I really. Yeah. Never have.

[A]

Okay, I gotta stop you there. Why? I mean, your father. Your father is one of the greatest songwriters ever. And, I mean, he's up there with the Tin Pan Alley writers. Right? I mean, he's one of the great melodicists, if that's even a word.

[B]

I agree. Right.

[A]

So. So I'm. I love the idea of genetic lines. You know what I mean?

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Okay. So I would think there would be some gift in there involved with writing. So the fact that you've never tested it on your own is surprising to me.

[B]

I think I'm just terrified to tap into it.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know. Maybe. Wouldn't that be funny if I wrote my first song at 56? Like my full computer.

[A]

I'm come over and we're going to. I'm going to stand there.

[B]

You're so sweet.

[A]

I would.

[B]

Wouldn't that be great?

[A]

I'd be really curious.

[B]

Yeah. I like to noodle around at the piano and everything, and I'm just. I think I just have such, like, severe ADD that I can't focus. I can't focus.

[A]

Okay, but are you a fan of Courtney Love at all?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hole. Are you a fan of that?

[B]

I mean, not like.

[A]

Okay, but. But I'm saying the reason I bring it up is. Is not to put you on the spot. Is. Is when Courtney had come out of rehab in, like, 96, 97, and was having a lot of issues, personal issues. She asked me to help her on an album which became this album called Celebrity Skin. And Courtney's very add.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've written with ADD Writer.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And writers. The thing with ADD writers is it's a little bit like things flying by in a stream. You gotta try to know which ones to grab.

[B]

I know, I know. And that's why I love collaborating.

[A]

Cause you got somebody to kinda.

[B]

Yeah. And then, like, I start something, they finish it, or I have, like. It's so fragmented. That's the way my music is.

[A]

But why do you think it's fragmented? Is it just the way your brain works?

[B]

Yeah. Okay. I really think it's the way my brain works because I love, like, riding bridges. I love, like, going off into the other land of the bridge.

[A]

So you like reacting off of something that's there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, I get that.

[B]

Yes. Yes. So, like, when China stands, do you

[A]

not like the pressure, though, of being on the spot?

[B]

No, it doesn't bug me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean, I don't have any Shame or any. There's no shame about it.

[A]

You've been in Playboy.

[B]

I've spread my legs for Playboy. So is there anything you could be more like, you know, But I don't have a shame with that. But I think it's more frustration and wanting to get to that next place and then, I mean. Cause shame is not the same as insecurity, I don't think.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Shame is more like embarrassed kind of, you know, or like feeling smaller or like, not good enough, whatever. Embarrassed is more like, I think, to me, vulnerable and being exposed. So. I don't know. I think I'm just hard on myself. I think ultimately I'm just hard on me. And it's hard to, like, think of all the music that has.

[A]

Is that something you feel you were born with or you. That became something you adapt used as an adoptive strategy to get through life.

[B]

I think because I grew up in a house where everything was so, like, chaotic and hectic that I was a protector of my sister. Of, like. We had, like, crazy things happen when she was young. Like, she almost drowned when she was like three. And she was. She fell into this well. We had this big well in the center of our upper backyard. And she was. All I could see was her hand. She was drowning.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And I ran to get mom and dad, they were still married and everything. And they came running down the hall and dad pulled her out. And so I've always had this protective feeling over Wendy. And so I think that that started my. I have to be strong and great and be the one to have, like, the answers and the protector. And, you know, and then inside, I think there was panic.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, I mean, this is getting really deep. But this is where songwriting, that's what

[A]

we're here to do. Because. No, because there is a connective tissue. You understand where I'm going.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know.

[A]

Yeah. Cause you do have to open up into an unfamiliar space.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's a vessel, you know, and it's in there. And I think the feelings are familiar, but the. But I don't know how to say it. Like, getting it on, getting in a melody or in a lyric. Lyrics I'm not great with. I get, like, ideas. Like, I wanna write a song about a train. You know, that was my thing last month. I'm like, I know I've gotta write a song about a train. Like, we get on the train, it's moving, and we get off at different stops. And, you know, and it was, you know, what inspired me was John Mayer's song called Stop this Train, which is my favorite John Mayer song. I love John Mayer. I'm slightly obsessed. Him in particular, because he's hot as hell. But his music and his voice and his songwriting, I love it. And Stop this Train blew my mind. And so I'm like, I want to write a song about a train as well.

[A]

Well, your father famously worked with other lyricists too.

[B]

He did, yes.

[A]

So for playing the game of the genetic line, maybe you inherited the gift of melody, but not necessarily the gift of lyrics, right?

[B]

I absolutely think you're right. I mean, it's always about vocals and melody and harmonies and arrangements and that. Yeah, it's never been lyrics. But that's why I think co writing with my sister in China was good, because we all kind of contributed something that was right. But it's been so long since we've written together.

[A]

Why do you think that is? Ego, the destroyer of all bands of all. Right. It's not money, really. It's ultimately about money. So I wanted to ask you this too, because you're born in 68.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Sunflower, the Beach Boys album, came out in 70. Surf's up was 71, and Holland was 73. And then you guys moved to Holland or something. Do I have that story right?

[B]

We moved to Holland while they were recording it.

[A]

So is that your first memory of that camp and working and. I mean, obviously it's your family. Yeah, that's worth pointing out. Cause, you know, most bands, everybody goes different directions when the tour's over. Yes, but in your guys case, like, it's the family.

[B]

It's the family. And dad went through his, like, ups and downs of, like, using drugs, not using drugs, having help from outside sources and programs and things that he got involved with. And then. And then it was like, is he gonna be involved with this album or is he not?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Holland, we were. I was young.

[A]

I mean, you'd have been five.

[B]

Five. And so I was in kindergarten and we moved. And I remember going to school in Holland and feeding the horses apples and. And then, of course, another.

[A]

Was this a temporary thing, like, we're gonna make this album over here? It wasn't like we're all moving to Holland.

[B]

Right? Well, we moved to Holland while he was recording.

[A]

But it wasn't like you guys were. Cause I saw some quote from one of your relatives saying something like. I think because they didn't. Something to do with. They weren't happy with America and how America was treating them.

[B]

No, it wasn't that at all.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was. They were recording, and we moved there, and they did vocals there and recorded, you know, the album. I don't really know all the details, but I know that we were temporarily.

[A]

Again, six months. I'm more interested in your memory, that's all.

[B]

Yeah, well, it was actually a really hard time. Cause my dad was drinking a lot at that time. At that time. And he actually got in a car accident, wrapped his Lincoln around a tree and walked away from the accident. He was fine, but there was a lot of crazy. And my mom was young, you know, she was 20, 25, you know, and so, I mean, my daughter's gonna be 20. So I'm just thinking, like, wow, five years after she turns 20. This is what she was dealing with. It was a lot. But Holland was a very intense album and. And kind of scary. It's kind of a scary album. There was some weird on there, like that Jack the Ripper thing when. Jack. Jack Riley and weird, you know, like the. The Pied Piper. I remember I couldn't believe how scary that was.

[A]

I kind of like dark Beach Boys, but I didn't live it, you know.

[B]

Oh, I love it.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

But I. As a kid, it was, like, really different.

[A]

And, you know, I'm curious, you know, your mom had done music, and that's how your parents met. But, like, was that something that she set aside? She wasn't that serious about, like, what's your impression of that? Because I'm curious.

[B]

Well, she was very young. 14 when she met him, or 14 and a half. And he was just, like, just getting into the first record and stardom, like, right in the beginning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this would have been, I don't know, 63.

[A]

60. 60.

[B]

Yeah. And so she went to a concert, and she was in the front row, and she had some hot chocolate. And my dad said, can I have a sip? He was on stage, and he took a sip, and then he, like, spilled it all over her. And then he, like. That started.

[A]

That's a significant way to meet, Right?

[B]

That started it. And then he proposed to her while he was in Germany over the phone. He asked her to marry him. He was in Germany, touring.

[A]

Very rock star.

[B]

Very rock star.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And mom was 16. And my grandparents. My grandfather was this man who looked exactly like Einstein. Like a clone of Einstein. German and big, thick accent. An incredible man. Escaped, like, World War II on foot. Just, like, went to Chicago, met my grandma. And my parents adored my dad. Sorry. My grandparents adored my dad, like, beyond. And he loved them. She was this short Little Jewish woman. And she was a great cook. God damn it. And he loved her matzo ball soup. So he would go, and they had a little piano, and they just fell in love with him. And they trusted him. So they trusted him. And, you know, back then, it was. People were getting married and hooking up so young.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it was like they knew that he was the one.

[A]

Well, just to not skip past the question, was music something? Your mom. I'm not saying she abandoned it, but it seemed like she had a moment, and then it just didn't happen.

[B]

I don't think it started until him.

[A]

Because my impression was she was doing something before she met your father.

[B]

No, I don't think so. I think.

[A]

Oh, okay. Maybe I got the story reversed.

[B]

You know, I don't know the answer to that, and I don't know why. Maybe it's all the pot I smoked. I forgot. But, like. But I just remember she and Auntie Dee Dee and Ginger, they had the Honeys, and Dad, you know, produced them. And they were great.

[A]

Yeah. Cause I've read something. But again, it's the Internet. Who knows? But it was something about. She was doing something on local television and that's how they met or something.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It's not important. It's more just the idea.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Was there a musical ambition from your mother's side of the equation, too?

[B]

I think there was. I think she was very interested.

[A]

Did she ever really return back to music at any point?

[B]

The Honeys reunited in, like, the 80s, and they made. Or late 70s, and they made a record, and it was really good, actually. I remember them recording Temptation Eyes. My mom sang it great. But my favorite music was my mom and my Auntie Dede. They did an album called Spring. They were a group called Spring. And it's. Have you heard it before?

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Mm. No. Oh, my God. I mean, there's a song called this Whole World and Tennessee Waltz and Awake and all these songs. My mom's. But mom's version of what's the Superstar?

[A]

Oh. By the Carpenters.

[B]

Jesus Christ. My mother's version. And my dad's like, I say, who's your favorite singer in the world? Your mother. He loves my mom's voice. I said, who's a better singer, Barbra Streisand or my mom? Your mother. It's so him to do that.

[A]

So your mom. Born in Chicago, so we. We share that.

[B]

Oh, nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they came. They were very, very poor. One pair of shoes. My grandfather was a. Was a Vacuum salesman and. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, here comes dad. Just changed everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Well, it's easy now. We look back and we see, you know, like your father and the Beatles at these young ages creating this music which we're all still listening to, and they have no idea what's coming. None. It's easy for us to sit back and say, oh, so and so should have done this and made a left here at this street.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They had no idea what was coming. None.

[B]

I think they were in. Just in their creative space and it was so authentic and pure and just inside of them and so cool that they weren't influenced by other. Like we are today. You know what I mean? It was the absolute most purest.

[A]

Well, back then you were rewarded for creating your own world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You like, you truly. Now we live in this homogeny where everyone's trying to sound like each other, which is so weird to me.

[B]

It's so weird to me. It's so odd. Like, I can't. How many girls can sound like Billie Eilish?

[A]

I don't. Well, apparently a thousand more.

[B]

Yeah. I actually love Billie. I actually love it.

[A]

Well, here's my issue with pop music. If you take the top artists, they're really good. I mean, there's no mistaking, it's the 999 behind them. I know that you're like, oh, my God, like, what are you doing? Like, how is that happiness? I don't get that.

[B]

I. I just think that fame is more important than the artistry.

[A]

Well, that's the new. That's the new economy we live in.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's frightening.

[A]

But, I mean, you think about it just started to opine. But, you know, I mean, your father basically created the album template that inspired the Beatles. Right. And inspired countless nerds like me to try to create our own worlds. Right? That's such a beautiful, aspirational thing that I can create this world with my gift of music. And it's all been reduced into this thing of like one song, three minutes, God forbid, it's anything too different than anybody else's doing. It's very strange, right?

[B]

It is strange. But then that's why when girls, young girls, and they say, do you have any advice? You know, for me, because I want to be a singer or a songwriter. And I always say the same thing. I just say, do what's inside of your soul and your heart. And it's about expression and not necessarily the reaction. It's about expression.

[A]

It's very hard for them to understand. Cause they live in a clique economy.

[B]

I know.

[A]

So if somebody's not clicking, it must be bad.

[B]

And also, like, how do you make a living, you know?

[A]

Well, you don't.

[B]

You don't. And like, I was 18 years old when we started Wilson Phillips. I mean, I knew that I was gonna go into the entertainment industry the minute I thought I was gonna be an actress. That's where I started Y. On the stage at school. And that's where I found my comfort, my home. I loved it. Music, always, Always a thread. Musicals. I remember dad coming to see me in a musical called Carnival. He saw me really belt and sing for the first time. He loved it. But I. I don't know. I. I think it's just changed so much, right, the industry.

[A]

You brought Wilson Phillips, so that's not probably a good place to go. There was the. Was the idea of you guys recording an organic thing and then you went and got a deal, or did somebody kind of think. You know what I'm saying? Like, how did that happen? Because I'm so cynical from being in this town too many years. I don't live here, but, I mean, I've been here enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, when we were kids and you guys were suddenly on mtv, it just seemed like somebody put the whole thing together because it just felt like that. But that's not. I'm not saying that's what happened.

[B]

Well, I'm sure there's many different perceptions of it.

[A]

No, but you tell me. I'm saying you were there.

[B]

You know, I mean, it was. It was extremely organic. And it was actually a mission of mine. Wilson Phillips wasn't the mission, but my mission was sing in harmony with people. In the eighth grade, I became obsessed with getting anybody that would have half an ear.

[A]

That's the family business, though. Isn't that fantastic?

[B]

So great.

[A]

Because I'm not a good harmony person. Musically, yes. I don't hear it that way.

[B]

I love singing harmony with anyone. Like a bum. I would sing with a bum. I just want to sing. I can't get over harmony.

[A]

But that's the family business. It's just so. But it's so beautiful.

[B]

It is so beautiful. And I remember getting, like during lunch periods and anytime I had the ability. I mean, I sang Kodachrome with my principal.

[A]

It's just like, so. Kodachrome.

[B]

Kodachrome.

[A]

Paul Simon.

[B]

Paul Simon.

[A]

Not a bad song, though.

[B]

I know, I know. So, like, I went to this school called Oakwood, and I met my best friend, like Jackson Brown was teaching a songwriting class in the third grade. Summer of third grade. And that's where I met my best friend.

[A]

Who's your best friend?

[B]

Tiffany.

[A]

Tiffany.

[B]

Tiffany Miller. She used to work.

[A]

You still friends?

[B]

Oh, God, yes. The best of friends forever. But we met, like, Jackson. That was the kind of school we went to. It was Oakwood School. All the kids, parents were in the industry. And Jackson Brown was teaching a songwriting class. But, you know, I. They were very. They were understanding of kids and their different talents. Everybody went to college in my grade except for me. I was the only one. And I went straight into Wilson Phillips. It was. That was the summer, but I could not. I could not, not do it. And so, believe it or not, Mama Cass's daughter Owen. And Owen asked Chyna to sing to get kids of 60s rock stars. Kids. Did I say that right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Together for a charity record. Like one song. Record one song and give all the money to charity.

[A]

So it started as a sort of a egalitarian.

[B]

It did. And it was like. It was Donovan's kids, Jerry Garcia's kids, Zappas. The Zappas, the Wilsons, Phillips. And nobody wanted to do it.

[A]

What do you mean? No one wanted to do it?

[B]

Everybody passed. Nope, not into it. And there was a Rolling Stone article, and it was. Annie Leibovitz did the COVID And we were in it. It was a horrible picture, but it was like the first thing I had in IT magazine. And it was Wendy and I and other. Other kids were featured. And I think that's what sparked the idea for Owen. But nobody wanted to do it except Owen, Chyna, Wendy and I. So it was the Wilson. There was the Wilson girls, and then the Phillips family and Cass Elliott.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mamas and Papas, Beach Boys kids that came together. And we. Of course. And I was like, this is when I was big stoner. So it was always about waking up and just getting ripped to the. Just always smoking.

[A]

Did your parents know you were smoking?

[B]

Oh, yeah. And mom and I actually forced her to take a bong hit. And she was trying to put her whole mouth on her.

[A]

Has she never been stoned or she.

[B]

No, I think she got stoned. But at one point she just, like, let us do it because I never got in trouble, but she knew that I was. That I was. We were potheads.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I know that sounds crazy, but.

[A]

No, I've known a lot of parents like that.

[B]

She trusted us. So we. All we wanted to do was just get stoned and listen to music. And the CD had just Come out. So I couldn't get over how crispy and clean and lovely it sounded. So, like, the first CD I bought was Genesis Abacab, which I love.

[A]

I had that album too. Oh, my God. So we're basically the same age, so we've had the same. We've been damaged by the same music.

[B]

Oh, I love it. There's nothing like the drums on abacab. So. Abacab.

[A]

My dad saw that tour, actually.

[B]

Oh, how lucky. Oh, my God. He's the most underrated artist ever, in my opinion. But so it was Abacab.

[A]

Just talk about Phil Collins.

[B]

Phil Collins. Oh, God. And then Wild Heart, Stevie Nicks album, and a few more. But, God, everybody. Oh, Heart. And we started singing Dog and Butterfly, and it was like, okay, let's hear what it sounds like when Wendy, Chyna, and I harmonize. And it was like a. It was like a tidal wave, you know? It was just. It just like the sound enveloped us and just. It was the most warm sound ever. And Owen sounded good too, but her voice stuck out too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It didn't work with our blend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was very sad. We, we, we. So then we were singing, singing. And it was like, oh, come over again, and let's just sing again. Let's just get on the floor and just harmonize. So it just started with the love of that. And then my mom came down from upstairs, and she said, what are you doing? And we said, we're singing harmony. And she goes, I hear you through the ceiling, through the floor.

[A]

That's the harmonics that cut through. Yeah.

[B]

She was like, you sound so good together. Do you know that? We said, yeah, we can't. We love it, like, but we don't know what to do, you know? And she. And then Chyna goes, I think we should call my mom and ask her, because she knows a lot of producers. So we called Michelle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's like, I know Richard Perry is a great friend of mine, and he's produced the Pornist Sisters and Barbra Streisand and Carly Simon. And I would be Carly Simon, like, fanatic. And Barbra Streisand, my favorite singer of all time, you know, and Karen Carpenter. But Barbra Streisand was another love. Elton and Barbara. Whew. But so we were like, okay, we're gonna call Richard Perry. And he goes, well, why don't you rehearse something and then come over to my house. Another fellow stoner, you know, so he was a big stoner. So we sang all we could do was prepare five words from a Stevie Nicks song called Wild Heart.

[A]

I saw you. That was your episode.

[B]

That was it. It was just Dare My Wild Heart and we went in.

[A]

You still remember your part?

[B]

Well, I don't know. I always the low harmony. I'm always the low.

[A]

We got a nice chest voice.

[B]

Thank you. But, like, Chyna never knew how to sing harmony, so we had to teach her. And she still really doesn't know how. She does, but that's why she's better on melody. She just can't. Wendy naturally goes to the high. I naturally go low. And it's always that stacked of, like. And I don't know technically the term, but it's like Chya's middle, I'm low, and Wendy's above. So that's what we're comfortable in. So, like, it was. You know, we just went in and Owen was with us, so it was the four of us.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We went to his house and we sang Dare My Wild Heart. And he went, that's it. First of all, he was rolling a joint, smoking his joint.

[A]

He's like, okay, so you're with this famous producer.

[B]

Famous producer.

[A]

And you're only singing a line.

[B]

Basically five words, one line of a chorus. And he's getting old at this point.

[A]

You're 18?

[B]

We're 18. Fresh out of high school. And he went, that's it. And we said, yeah. What do you think? Do you like our sound? You know? And he goes. And he was. He must have been high as a kite. He was like, I. And I know this is dramatic, but he's like, I see the Beatles. I see. He's like, you need to call your band Pretzels with Mustard. And we're like, okay, you're a. You're clearly wasted and have the munchies.

[A]

The Redstone, too, though, who knows?

[B]

Probably. Probably. I don't remember smoking with him, but it was, like, part of the thing. Like, just like, you know, the producer's getting high.

[A]

Yeah, I guess so.

[B]

It's just so part of it all. But we were like, yeah, that's all we have. And he's like, oh, I know what to do. I'm getting you together with another producer who was a writer and. Or no, who's a producer who's worked with the Porno Sisters. You guys have to get in the studio and get comfortable around a microphone. So we went in. It was good advice. Yeah. And we recorded our first song we ever recorded in the studio was Mama Said, Mama said There'll be days like this.

[A]

Oh, that one I was confusing with the Lenny Kravitz. Mama said.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Mama said.

[A]

Oh, I know that song.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Mama said there'll be days like this and mama said.

[B]

Mama said. So I had the high part, which was the most. It was. I. I can't even get. It was so high. I don't know why he had me singing that, but I had the high part. And so it was.

[A]

Do you think he was. Because, you know, your father famously would sing very high. Do you think he was trying to test you up there to see if you had that same falsetto?

[B]

Maybe, maybe. But he just. He didn't know us. He didn't know our.

[A]

Who was the person who was.

[B]

Richard Perry.

[A]

Oh, but. So Richard Perry takes you in the studio.

[B]

Richard Perry produced us for that song, but Jim Tract was the one who got us comfortable. I was just trying to understand the associate. He was the executive producer, you know.

[A]

I get you.

[B]

Richard was the executive producer, so. But he was a strange producer. He actually said, can you. This is so Politically Incorrect today. He was like. He goes, can you sing it a little more like retarded? But he didn't say it right, though. He meant like retard. Like, slow it down or something. So I heard it as retard.

[A]

That's the way I heard was really weird.

[B]

But, yeah. So anyway, so then he said, you know, the only way you guys are gonna get any respect in this business is to write your own music. You have to write your music.

[A]

Beautiful advice.

[B]

Thank God. So he goes, I know the guy, and it's Glenn Ballard. So everything changed the moment we met Glenn. It was the greatest thing that ever happened to us ever, ever, ever, ever. Just the only thing I can think of is just magical, golden sparks of love. That was really weird. But, yeah. Yeah, that's it. It was just beyond living in a casino in that little garage. And I have the best memories ever.

[A]

Okay, so give us a snapshot.

[B]

Just go in. And like, he was telling us that he came from music publishing. He worked his way up. He worked for Elton John, mca. He wrote a song called man in the Mirror for Michael Jackson.

[A]

And so he had you there, right?

[B]

And we were like, what? And with Sayda Garrett. And then we.

[A]

Was it called Wilson Phillips? Is that your guys?

[B]

Okay, so we had no name. We knew that we had to write songs and get some kind of demo together so that we could shop a record deal. And the guy that was kind of our. I don't know, the guy that took us to the record companies. He was an A and R guy. His name was Artie Mogul, and he discovered Kenny Rogers, Crystal Gale, and.

[A]

And, well, they must have spelled money on you guys.

[B]

They knew. I think the sound was the driving force. So nobody really gave a. What we sang. They just knew that.

[A]

That sounds so perfect for this town. But it's true.

[B]

But it's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we were like, well, that's fine, but we have to write, right? Music. We have to express what's in us, and we know we've got something in. There was young love. We were 18, 19. I mean, I was like. With breaking up, getting together. Chyna had a terrible relationship. Wendy, too, was all over the place, and we wanted to write about it. And Glenn was the person that made us feel really comfortable. He loved our sound. That was a given, but it was more about, like, what do you want to say, girls? And we would be like, well, we're just. We're breaking up. We're getting back together, you know, whatever it is. And Glenn always had this angle. He was able to sort of tap into the more youthful, but bring his. He is a very kind, loving soul. And so his almost fatherly figure with us. We felt safe to write with him.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

It was amazing, and it was an amazing collaboration. So when we wrote youe in Love, we were great collaborators together. We all could just. It was. Cause four people writing together can be hard. But it was like he would start some kind of melody on the piano, and then Chyna would go, oh, how about, you know, this? And then I would go, well, wait, let's move to the left and try this. You know, it was just really. And then Wendy would have a great lyrical idea, lyric idea, and it was really wonderful, that whole process. It was so long ago that. I mean, I'm 56, so that was 38 years ago. So, like, I don't. I just remember it was the most creative, magical thing I've ever felt. And it was very purposeful. It was like there was this goal. And when we. When we had. So he would. We would make these. We would start with a track, and then Glenn would record the music. And then he would say, take these tapes home and see if you can come up with some melodies and lyrics. And we did a lot of writing like that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So we would have writing sessions separately and with him, but with Release Me, that was the song that we wrote by ourselves. The first song, the only song we wrote by ourselves, that song. But hold on was clearly just by the grace of God. And it was annoying. What happened. He had an idea for music and he said, I. I only have time to make one tape, so I'm gonna let you guys take this. Chyna took it home and we were like, okay, we'll get together and write. But it happened so fast. And thank God it did, because it was something that she was going through with sobriety. And it was like this. One day at a time, One day at a time. And if I could just hold on for one day and get through to the next day, then everything will be okay. And that's where hold on came about. And I kind of came in and wrote a little bit at the end and, you know, sort of added some stuff arrangement wise, too. But it was really her expression. And it was. And when she presented it to us was on a yellow pad of paper. And I was annoyed because I thought, well, I didn't get a chance to contribute to this. Wendy was like, we didn't get a chance. But it was so good. And it was nearly finished. Wasn't quite all finished, but it was nearly finished. And we said, oh, God, that driving. You know, someday somebody's gonna be. What a great, like, driving chorus. And. And then, like, when the harmonies would come in, it was just. We knew it was something really big.

[A]

Well, what? 10, 10.

[B]

10 million records.

[A]

10 million records. Wait, let me look at my little stats.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Uh huh. 125 weeks on the charts. Grammy nominations for album and song of the year. Yeah.

[B]

Best New Artist.

[A]

So that's pretty heady stuff. Like 18 years old. I mean, yes, you grew up around it, but now it's your time.

[B]

So we were 22 when we finally. We spent four years in the studio writing songs.

[A]

Okay, I didn't know that part. Yeah.

[B]

So it was 18. So I was 22 when the first album came out. And we spent a long time writing and trying to figure out, you know, just getting a stack of songs together. And then so Artie brought us to Charles Koppelman and SBK Records, and he was. I remember Valentine's Day. We had met with every record company there was.

[A]

And what was the general vibe?

[B]

The general vibe was, we love this sound.

[A]

What?

[B]

But there were people that were very negative. You're just riding on the coattails of your parents. You know, is this real? And what does that even mean? Yeah, I don't know. It was like.

[A]

But then again, on down, my brain would go to. If you were trying to sound like the Beach Boys or Mambas and the Papas, That. Which you weren't.

[B]

We weren't. But it was because I think we were harmony based that it was like,

[A]

that's what happens when non musicians make decisions about music.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because there's only so many different ways to do music.

[B]

I know. And it was frustrating, but there was just a few people that got it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And one of them was a guy from mca. I forgot his name. He ran MCA for a while. And I woke up on Valentine's Day and I had roses delivered by like 10, seven record companies. And I remember the card from MCA, it said, roses are red, violets are blue, MCA is the home for you.

[A]

Somebody took a long time to work

[B]

on that, to work on that. So it was like, oh. So we literally got to pick the record company that wanted to sign us.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

An unbelievable position to be in. But we were confident. We were not around, we were serious.

[A]

And how were your parents? Because, you know, I know I have kids and my instinct would be I would want to swoop in and make sure my kids aren't about to get gypped by the business. Because I've been jipped by the business.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Did your dad or mom get protective?

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Dad said one thing. Watch out for the sharks. That was it.

[A]

Is that your imitation of your father?

[B]

Yeah, it is. And it's really good, actually. He's very funny. He's so funny. That's all he said was, watch out for the sharks. And there was very, very limited time with him because he was with Dr. Landy at that time, so. Oh, that whole thing, that was awful. And we wrote some songs about that and it was incredibly painful. And that was the source of a lot of pain and good material to write about. But we chose Charles Koppelman because he believed in us. And he said to me, you know, I'm a music man, and that's what you guys are. This is real. You have a lot to say. So we love that he wasn't looking at us like this money making thing, which. Which we made them a lot of money. Millions and millions.

[A]

But yeah, because. Let me hit pause because, you know, the beauty of the MTV era, which were not where. I mean, it exists, but it's not like it was, but was, you know, there I am in my, you know, my goth apartment, you know, whenever this is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, there was no escaping you guys. But the cool thing was, is I have very clear memories of hearing those songs, watching the videos, kind of coming up with my own kind of conclusions. Fair or not, but the cynical Part of me assumed it was some sort of construction. So it's cool to hear that it was organically driven. And I didn't realize until I did the research to interview with you is that Glenn was involved. I know Glenn a little bit. And it makes sense to me that he was so instrumental in that.

[B]

He had this magical way of letting each, all three of us express ourselves and strong personalities. Wendy. Wendy has a strong personality, but it's more of a. She's a strong woman. She's a survivor. But she's not vocal. She's not very vocal. And I'm horrifically vocal and controlling.

[A]

Hadn't. Hadn't noticed, but very controlling.

[B]

And it was.

[A]

Am I doing okay so far? You're so funny.

[B]

You're amazing. You make it easy. You're easy to talk to. Well, you're easy for me to open up.

[A]

I think the sneaky advantage I have is that I'm a musician, you see. Absolutely. I know the way we collectively, we think.

[B]

We think.

[A]

And most people who interview us don't understand the way we actually think. They have a Hollywood movie version of the way that we think, but they don't really. So when you're talking about Glenn, the demoing, all the hours that you would put in, the feeling that, like, I can do something on my own that's super important, super important.

[B]

And that's the creation, you know, it's the creation of it. And there are so many man. Just man made, you know, it's kind of like me. It's kind of like deciding right now, like, do I get quartzsite countertops or quartz. One is a natural stone and one is a man made. And my heart wants quartzite, you know, so it's like. I don't know.

[A]

I didn't follow you on that.

[B]

Well, it's kind of like this fabrication thing, you know, is it real or is it fake? Is it.

[A]

See, that's. That's one thing that impresses me, going back and listening to your music. Of course, I heard it all at the time. But what really strikes me now at my youthful age of 57, is that you guys weren't trying to sound like your parents bands. No, it didn't strike me then at the time, because I just thought I was like, well, what is this? Right. You know, because all the marketing was about. You're the children of.

[B]

Right, of course. Well, that's how like, really? Oh, that's kind of cool. I wonder what they sound like.

[A]

Yeah, it is what it is. But I'm saying is you know, I'm in some apartment in Chicago. All I know is you guys are on TV every five seconds.

[B]

Every five seconds. And the videos were annoying, and it was. And we were.

[A]

The one on the beach was. There was something on the beach.

[B]

Yeah. Hold on. Yeah, well, okay, so. Okay, so the creative process and the recording and the music was, hands down the best part of it. And touring was minimal, and we did that, and it was fun, but it was our favorite thing to do, was be in the studio, and that's what we loved. Everything else was a pain in the ass. And so they used us to get SBK on the map, and we were traveling, like, five cities a day, and we were just exhausted.

[A]

Meeting radio programmers and.

[B]

Yes. And you know how it used to be. You had to go to the stations.

[A]

You had to go to the stations. No zooming back then.

[B]

No zooming. You. You go to the stations and kiss ass to the program director. And I was particularly good at that. So we would be chummy, whatever, going to dinner.

[A]

But what people don't see is the 15 pictures you take with the staffers and then the weird guy asking the Pet Sounds question when you're in the middle of your day and you just want to go get some lunch and he wants to talk about Van Dyke

[B]

Parks or something, right? And then all that put together would get us the ad to get on the radio station, to get airplay, then to get requests, and then to move up the charts, the more ads we got, you know, so it was so insane, but it was also thrilling. And here we are just growing up and, you know, experiencing this, and then it was like. And then we're in the, you know, in the van, going from, you know, city to city and then saying, you're selling 150,000 records a week. And it was. We couldn't believe it. But we. When we were in the studio making the first record, I looked at everyone and I said, we're gonna sell 10 million records. And they were like, you're crazy. And I said, no. Yeah, we are. Yeah, we are. Yeah, we are.

[A]

Okay. So did you know the second one was only. Only gonna sell two?

[B]

I think it sold three.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But anyway, we were told we were a failure after the second record came out.

[A]

I've been there. I know that feeling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You only went platinum.

[B]

That's right. Only platinum. And I'll never forget the conversation.

[A]

I had the exact same thing happen to me.

[B]

It's the worst.

[A]

This record only went platinum now. They would kill. Kill their children for a platinum Record

[B]

kill for a platinum record.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, a million records. Who sells a million records? I mean, maybe Ariana Grande.

[A]

Only, you know who, Billy?

[B]

Adele. Right. You know, I don't want to be, like, negative about the business.

[A]

Please be negative about the business.

[B]

I mean, I don't want to be negative about the business.

[A]

Okay, I get you.

[B]

Because I don't. I tend to not give things that I don't give a. About anytime.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, like, I could go crazy about politics. I could go crazy about that. And yes, it does make a difference, and my children are on this planet. But I'm very good at sweeping things under the carpet too. I'm an alcoholic, you know, recovering alcoholic. I'm so used to numbing this out.

[A]

Okay, so take me into that. Because obviously there would have been a lot of energy going into the second record.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Was it the musical atmosphere at the time? Obviously, Nirvana had all kicked in there. You got grunge. You guys were about as far away from grunge as you could be.

[B]

Although, don't let me forget. Okay, I know I'm up. Please, this is important. Later on, something happened with a guy who co wrote Impulsive, and we wrote with him. And this has to do with you. So. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So you're saying we'll hold that. Okay.

[A]

So what do you think were the circumstances that led it to only selling 3 million records? Which, again, sounds crazy because that's still a very successful record.

[B]

We had new managers come in. They were Janet Jackson's management, HK management. And they were on this kick that sex was gonna sell and that we were two ordinary two girls next door and we needed to change our image.

[A]

Oh, jeez.

[B]

And that image was everything. So on the first. For the first record, it was like we were cool. We had cool coats on and jeans and white T shirts, and hold on was a lovely video and Pulsive was fun, and, you know, it was really cool. And then all of a sudden, it was like, for the second record, everything became very serious. The fighting started between the group, the pressure to make another album that was gonna be as successful as possible.

[A]

Is that why musically, it feels a little bit more.

[B]

No, that was personal. We were grieving our parents. I shouldn't say it like that. All of our. We didn't get a chance to feel all the emotions growing up with songwriting and being able to get it on paper until the second record. And it was like our life was on pause from 18 to 22. And then at 23, we had to make the other record. And what were we gonna write about? Well, we were all in therapy. We were all, you know, growing up and facing inner demons. And that was the basis of the second record.

[A]

Okay. Cause I was. I don't remember the second record.

[B]

Yeah. Shadows and Light.

[A]

I'm saying at the time, I don't remember. I was in my own thing. So, you know what I'm saying? I have very distinct memories of the first one. The second one, I don't remember. I found myself struggling. So when I went and listened to it, knowing I was going to talk to you, I was surprised by the difference in the tone.

[B]

So different.

[A]

I actually, musically, it's very rich.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's a good record. So it's not like. It's not like I listen to it, think, oh, man, right. Like, you know, it's a WTF moment where you're like, oh my God, what did they do? I was actually like, oh, there's something here.

[B]

Yeah, it was different. It was like we. I mean, I think it wasn't as organic as the first one. I don't know if that's the right word.

[A]

But to be fair to you, everybody says the same thing about a second record. Because if you're lucky enough to have success in the first record, you just don't have the same time and everything becomes a bit self observational.

[B]

It does. And you try to capture. Capturing that.

[A]

My favorite is now everybody has an opinion about what you should do and they didn't give a the year before. Now everybody's your. You know, you should.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's so annoying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Worry about yourself. I love Shadows in the Land. I love our second record. But it was the fighting with all of us and it was always like, okay, why the.

[A]

What's the fighting?

[B]

Because I think that Chyna had some difficulty being in a group. I think she wanted to express herself individually and she just said, I'm leaving.

[A]

But that was at the end of the process. Or.

[B]

No, that was at the end when Shadows and Light was considered the failure. And we did like a mini tour and everything just changed. It all became kind of dark.

[A]

Very fast too, right?

[B]

Fast. You know, it's a strange thing.

[A]

Cause first record's 90, right? And I mean. Yeah, but you know, the Mamas and Papas didn't last that long either.

[B]

I know, it was very short. It was like three years or three years.

[A]

24 charting singles in three years. They didn't tour, all they did was record. But it was the same thing, right?

[B]

Yes, short.

[A]

So in a weird way, like, again, who knows? It's just speculation.

[B]

I never. I actually didn't put that together. Like, almost repeating history.

[A]

Little odd, don't you think?

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's definitely, yeah. And the mother in this huge band that lasts for three years and then implodes or explodes, and she's in this huge group three years. It's like. It's kind of odd, I know, but

[B]

I think the struggle was inside of her.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it was just difficult not to

[A]

jump too far in the timeline. I know she's very into her faith, and I was watching some videos of her kind of proselytizing, walking around her neighborhood, talking about Jesus and stuff, which is fine. I'm a Christian, so it's all good. But what I'm saying is, do you think that was an early form of her own spiritual struggle, too? Does it make sense?

[B]

I think the struggle is in many areas for her and for me and for Wendy. And I think that the three of us have been friends since birth.

[A]

Did the pressure sort of bring out the issues? Yes. Okay. So that's what I was trying to

[B]

get at, the pressure. We couldn't. We couldn't come together with the pressure. Musically, we could come together, but spiritually and individually, inside of us, it was the egos. It became competitive.

[A]

Oh, that's strange.

[B]

It became competitive. It was like.

[A]

Is that strange to you now, looking back?

[B]

No, because it was so. I was so worried that Wendy and I were. You know, this is something that I don't think I've ever said publicly. When we first got together with Richard Perry, the cassette tape that we made, there was a. There was an. It said the China Phillips group. And that really me off.

[A]

Yeah. And that's one of those things you store in the back of your brain. Right.

[B]

And I thought to myself, well, wait a minute here. There would be no group if I had not gotten us together and had that love of harmony and said, get. Get in here and sing. And there wouldn't be a group if Owen hadn't said, let's record together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean, there were five years we didn't see Chyna. She was doing. We had different lives. And she actually. When we opened the door, she didn't recognize Wendy. She introduced herself. Hi, I'm China. And Wendy was like, it's me, Wendy. You know, Wendy had blonde hair and blue contacts in. And China didn't recognize her, but, like. So, yeah, I felt like we got off on the wrong foot. And I've always been the person. I love an ensemble I love collective thinking. Collective love, collective energy. I feel like that's the best way to get the most out of it. You wanna be a solo artist, great, go. But when it's the three of us, it's the three of us. And clearly that's the proof is in the pudding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that's what made the group is the three. So when there was kind of like this, I wanna stick out, I wanna go solo, it upset me and I had to accept it. And I remember crying on the phone to Glenn, saying, how could somebody walk away from something so successful? No matter how many records Shadows and Lights sold, how could somebody walk away? I don't understand.

[A]

Yeah, it is odd in hindsight that it's a story that really doesn't have a middle or an ending. It's just the beginning. And then it just kind of. I mean, I know you guys have done other stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's different.

[B]

Hasn't ended.

[A]

Right. But you know, what I'm saying is it'd be like if my band only put out two records, you know, and it was, you know, it's the kind of like the what if, the what if. Because you're only in your sort of youthful prime for so many years.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we know from music history that's when a lot of the best music tends to get made, because the passion is there. The, the. Even the insanity, you know, like the whole. There's a fervor that happens with youth. You know, it's, it's absolutely. Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Right. It all kind of feeds into something. So that's the shame of it is, is there's really no middle or end to that story for that time. That's what I was trying to say. Artfully.

[B]

Yes, yes. No, I agree. I just couldn't get over. I couldn't get past the shock.

[A]

So not to add to the weirdness of it all, but the other memory I have from those times is, is people really being horrific with you about your appearance?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, bullying. Like, I call it bullying. Straight up bullying.

[B]

Straight up bullying.

[A]

That must have been really funky because

[B]

it was so hard.

[A]

Yeah, I don't, I, I, I don't know. It's hard to be empathic in this scenario. We're just talking.

[B]

It is. But it's like, as you can tell, I'm, I'm so open about talking about this.

[A]

Well, that's part of, you know, what if it wasn't part of your story in the sense that you made it part of your Story. I probably wouldn't even bring it up. But since you did, I'm struck by, you know, you were. In this moment in time, you have all the success. And as somebody who was publicly bullied, too, I remember having these really conflicting feelings where it's like I would step outside my door to go play some massive concert, and then I would get that feeling in the pit of my stomach, like, yeah, but you're going to pay. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like, the good thing is a bad thing. And at some point it becomes melded together where you can't have the good thing without the bad thing. Did you feel that?

[B]

So I had to accept that people are going to be dicks.

[A]

Can you say that more?

[B]

So it's.

[A]

No, I love it.

[B]

Everything started off kind of. We had this executive guy, Arma Andan, who wound up becoming a good friend of mine, actually.

[A]

Was he just the messenger or something?

[B]

He was VP of SBK Records and he came from Columbia Records and he worked with Charles and he was also our co manager. It was so incestuous and so wrong. We had a lawyer. Our lawyer was our co manager. The record company was. It was all total conflict of interest. We got. We didn't know it. We were desperate. We just wanted to have somebody believe in us. And we knew that Charles and the company was. But we didn't know how we were getting until later. But I remember when they came to one of our recording sessions, very early on, maybe we had recorded half the album. And Arma came in and he said to me, what are we going to do about this weight problem of yours? Verbatim.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I remember running into the bathroom and just sobbing.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And feeling so. Like, this isn't right. Like, we're making a record and this is. This is art and you're talking.

[A]

It's also sacred space.

[B]

It's sacred space. And he came in there like an. And I really. I mean, he wound up really apologizing for it. Cause I said, unacceptable. Like how you hurt me so badly when you did that. And he said, I just can't believe I said that. I am so sorry. And this. And it took years. And I just said, you know, I really. You're so funny and so great. And then you were an. For saying that to me. Why did you do that? You know, it's like you lost control and you just, like, you really chose the wrong words. And Were you really afraid that my fat was going to make us not successful?

[A]

Well, see, if you'd been skinny, you would have sold 11 million these mother so. But that's how they think.

[B]

That's how they think. And it was always this like Hyde Carney in the videos. My light. I had to stay in this light.

[A]

Oh my gosh. It was so humiliating for my chin.

[B]

It was. Wasn't good. But the man who made the videos was such and is such a dear friend. And he always just said to me, give me the eyes and you have that spark. And he had to follow direction from the record company. He had to. But we always had this understanding that I was beautiful too. But it was. I sort of embraced my role. I kind of. I kind of liked it. It was kind of like a power thing, I have to admit.

[A]

Can you explain that a little bit?

[B]

I was different. I was different. And you weren't gonna with me. Cause I had that and that's part of my. The armor I've had.

[A]

So what strikes me. And I was thinking about this this morning. If Wilson Phillips came out today, you know what I'm saying? You would have been embraced in such a different way.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Now you've had something to do with that body positivity stuff. But who you are and what makes you who you are, people would be so different. It must strike you as slightly ironic.

[B]

It's ironic, but I never tapped into that negativity. I don't like negativity. I feel like everybody that made fun of me was just unhappy and it was an easy thing to do.

[A]

But that generation too was so mean.

[B]

So mean. But there still are very mean people.

[A]

Oh no, that hasn't ended. But you know, we're Gen X and so every generation has its version of. Of D cks. Right?

[B]

And we're not. We're not accepting it.

[A]

For some reason, our generation was very comfortable with bullying and it.

[B]

And it. And it's sad because I. I love to lift people up so my. My whole insides. I could not understand why somebody would just make fun of me. Like focus on the music. What. Who cares if I'm heavier than the other two? You know? But when. When the new management came around and we had to. And we wanted to do like sex sells and they wanted to get us in corsets for our first video. You wanna see me cry? It was the worst experience ever. I was.

[A]

Take me through it a little bit. We don't have to go too deep in.

[B]

I just had to wear these corsets that were sucking me in and trying to make me look as skinny as possible. I spent like I don't know, something like $50,000 on corsets. It was insane. And I was. I had pinched. I was bleeding. I had, you know, sores on my waist from cinching and trying to look skinny, and it was just awful and.

[A]

Sound like some kind of weird nightmare.

[B]

I pulled Jeff aside. We were doing this, you know, shooting the video, and it was like we were in this lingerie, and, you know, I. Like, our body parts were coming out of our leotards. It was just. And I pulled Jeff aside, you know, the producer of the video, and I said, we're not shooting a Playboy video here. Like, what happened to the. What happened to the girls next door? Like, you really think this is the way we should be doing this?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, in. In a movie, this is where I would turn to the camera instead of say, like, you realize how strange this is. You have three young women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In their physical prime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They've just sold 10 million albums. And within this space of about a thousand something days, you're trying to completely change who they are, what they are, and why the public is attracted to them.

[B]

I know, and it rubbed me the wrong way, I bet. But I loved the music, so I was like. At some point.

[A]

Did you sort of rationalize it?

[B]

I did. I did. I also was like, oh, okay. We're still, you know, the puppets. We still have a record deal. We have. We're contractually obligated to make the video and perform and do what they say.

[A]

Well, you didn't know. I was across town telling everybody to off and say no.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I said no to everybody.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. I wish I had the balls to do that today. I would.

[A]

I look back and I can't believe how crazy I am because I said no to these people. I just looked at them and I said no.

[B]

Oh, my God, that's awesome.

[A]

And they would threaten me and threaten us, drop us. And I'd say, go ahead. And they just didn't because there was too much money to be made.

[B]

It's so sick.

[A]

It's a sick, sick business.

[B]

It's so sick.

[A]

Do you ever see Day of the Locusts?

[B]

No.

[A]

It's a famous book from the 30s, but it was made into a movie in the early 70s. Nathaniel west was the author. But it's about early Hollywood and the dark side of exploiting people and the characters. There's like a fake Shirley Temple with the stage mom and the wannabe hottie who just is willing to stand in the back just to Stay. She's in the movies.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But he wrote this book in 1939 or something. Wow. But it really gets at the dark underbelly of this town. So what I'm trying to illustrate, and again, turning to the camera, is here's a perfect example of you're from famous families, you have a very successful record, and somebody in an office decides, nope, not good enough.

[B]

Right. And that's the thing.

[A]

Not that this is the price of admission to get in the business. This is the price of admission to stay in the business.

[B]

To stay. And it was. We were told. We were. I mean, I. Our record company president said, you're a failure. And when. Those were his words, you failed, Mrs. Koppelman. Koppelman. I remember sitting outside of my house, sitting outside on my lawn chair, and he said, you're a failure. And then he said, well, China, you're gonna do a record. You and Wendy alone. Then.

[A]

Is this the Christmas record?

[B]

So this was before the Christmas record. We tried to do some stuff, recorded some demos, and it was good. But then the Christmas record, he said it, let's just do a Christmas record then.

[A]

Oh, they speak.

[B]

I know. But then Wendy and I made a Christmas record that we are very proud of. I love our album.

[A]

I'm not yet in the Christmas spirit, so I haven't listened to it, I admit, but.

[B]

Oh, it's so good. The harmonies are so good. I remember recording it. And we wrote hey, Santa, and they still play it. It's so much fun. We'll be in concert now, and it'll be like, July. And they're like, hey, Santa.

[A]

Gosh, that's so intense. I can't even. It's hard for me to form my thought on it because I just. I just feel the ick of the whole thing.

[B]

Well, it's just.

[A]

So how do you. Okay, so how do you pick yourself up off the ground?

[B]

Well, get a talk show and move to Connecticut.

[A]

Okay, wait, this is my. You got my cue here.

[B]

What?

[A]

Just bear with me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is your. This is your. I think it's incomplete, but this is your life in television.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

So acting.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

60s show. 70s show. Spring of the Teenage Witch, American Dad, Bridesmaids, Glee Talk Shows. Carney. The Newlywed Game. Carney Wilson.

[B]

Emmy nominated.

[A]

Emmy nominated for Best God Bless Karaoke Battle. Celebrity Wife Swap. Wilson Phillips. Still holding on a reality show about the band's reunion. I mean, I don't need to read them all.

[B]

That's a quarter of it. It's been years, right? So many things.

[A]

Was it the survivor in you that was like, I'm just gonna keep working?

[B]

I went on Howard Stern and a woman said, anybody that can stand up to Howard Stern needs a talk show. And about 22 new talk shows came out that year. I was just one of many.

[A]

Did they try to turn you into like the gossipy Ricki Lake kind of thing?

[B]

They kept saying to me, we love you because you have an opinion. So don't be, ever be afraid to show, you know, to give your opinion. Well, when the wife beaters came on the show and I said, you're a cocksucker, they were very upset. So, you know, I mean, I, you know, I couldn't hold back.

[A]

Too much opinion.

[B]

Yeah, too much. And then also I had the other nightmare where they said to me, you're gaining weight.

[A]

We see it. Oh my God.

[B]

Second time that happened. So it happened in the music business and it happened in the TV business.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

And I just, you know, and I mean, you know. And his name was Jim Paratori. He died actually. So he was riding a bike and had a heart attack in France. I think he died. But he gave me a job which was very nice. It was telepictures and it was syndicated all over. You know, I was on after Regis and Kathie Lee, so that was fun. I did it for 155 episodes and I loved it. And it was the Survivor, but it was also like fun. It was an adventure.

[A]

Okay. But the reason I read that list obviously includes the present day. But is it like my music career's over or I need to find other stuff to do? I'm trying to understand that moment of pivot.

[B]

It's many interests. It's just the this. Yeah. Music is on hold and we're not touring. I spent.

[A]

But was that painful to you?

[B]

Yeah, it was. Because I, every year I would ask China and Wendy, are we going to get back together? And the answer was no. So I had to make a living. I, I, I was excited. I mean, I was excited for different opportunities. And one thing would.

[A]

Well, why didn't she. Okay, couple questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And understand the context of the question. It's not an, it's not a, there's no accusation. It's like, okay, okay, so let's just go simply. Why didn't you go solo?

[B]

Why did she.

[A]

No, why didn't you go solo? Or just do, or just decide to do Wilson Sisters? Well, we, but I mean, all in meaning, not.

[B]

Well, we were still under contract with the record company. We had to Deliver more records.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So we started.

[A]

But my sense of it is the energy went out of it. Is that fair?

[B]

The energy went out of it. But. But before I got into the television, which was really. That's. It was kind of like. I tend to be OCD with things I get fixated on. Yeah.

[A]

So you were all in on tv.

[B]

I was all in on tv, but I had no goal. I had nothing really in mind. I just kind of went with the flow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So one thing would lead to another.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But also, right before I really got into television, I reunited with our dad.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that came through music.

[A]

Was this because of estrangement and Landy and all that stuff?

[B]

Yes. Okay. So he was done with Landy. We got him away from Landy and he recorded a song with Rob Wasserman, the bass player who passed away. And he had done collaborations with different artists. And so it was two artists and him, Rob. And so he asked me if I would record a song with my dad. And so we did a song called Bells of Madness, Fantasies, Reality. And it was the first time I was in the studio with him as an adult. And he cried the whole time. He walked back and forth and cried the whole time. And I remember singing. And he loved it and it was great. And that was the beginning of the healing of our relationship. And it was through music. And this doesn't surprise me. And then we sang on a song called Do It Again that Dom was. Was producing.

[A]

But is this the. Is it like a remake of the Dune?

[B]

Yeah, it was like a remake. But. But we. But the Wilsons got signed. Wendy and I got signed to Polydor, whatever it was called. Polygram or whatever.

[A]

Polygram.

[B]

Yeah, Polygram. And we knew that we wanted to. So this is where you come in.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is so cool. All right.

[A]

Try not to be nervous. So cool.

[B]

You're so cute. Okay, wait, so the co writer of Impaulsive Cliff Magnus.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Loves you, loves Smashing Pumpkins. And he. So he was like, wendy. And I said, we have to collaborate with different writers. And we made that Christmas record and now we were going to go for the pop record.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they were very excited and very behind it. We met with a lot of writers, wrote a lot of songs, and we started compiling these songs and we get with Cliff and he says, I think you guys need to really bust out of this, like, good girl image you've got to bring. Now he's a guitar. He's a guitar man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he was playing today in 1979.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he played it for us, and he was like, just listen to the way he sings and how the guitars are heavy, but they're not too loud, but they're crunchy and delicious. But listen to how. Listen to the way the effects on his vocals and the way he sings and the melodies. Just listen to this. And we. We would play it and then go right into the writing session.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

So we see.

[A]

I'm now getting shy.

[B]

No, you're so cute. But so the result of that, there were two songs. One song was called I Hate youe Face.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

No, I Hate youe Face. We were like, we don't care what anybody thinks. We're gonna go for this. And Cliff was such. He's a great guitar player, and he loves guitar. We were like, we are gonna go for it. This record came out, and it was a collaboration with our father. And so we did some songs with Dave Stewart from the Eurythmics and wrote a song with him, two songs with him. And our dad was a part of it. So it was like this. It was called the Wilsons. And it was really Wendy and I. But it was also our father. But we did four songs with Cliff. I think it was four, maybe five. And I Hate youe Face was really cool. And I am so proud of this record. And it never saw the light of day and the. But it just. It just.

[A]

Oh, one of those.

[B]

Yeah, one of those. We went on stage and did this song. I was determined to, like, show people that we could, like, rock out a little bit. And so I was literally like, you know, we would be like, yo, I'm in love. And then I'd be like, I hate your face.

[A]

That's a cool idea. See, when you say the title, I didn't expect that, but it was cool.

[B]

So it's about past lives. Like, I hate your face because I love your face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've been here before with you. But anyway, we were very influenced by you with. With these song. With three or four of these songs on the record, but it never saw the light. And it's some of my favorite stuff we've ever done. Yeah.

[A]

Was interesting times, right, that you could have music like that be popular.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

It's very rare.

[B]

I know when I.

[A]

When we had actually Going back to your World, when we had success in the 90s, and people were sort of shocked by it because, you know, we were all these weirdos that had climbed up out of sewers, you know, I said, well, it's just the 60s all over again.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

You know, I mean, music gets so stale.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That kids are just like, show me something. And then all of a sudden, you've got all these artists that are just like, get out of the way. We're so sick of your, you know, whatever.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

Your snoozy, prepackaged pop, you know, we need something that feels more like what we're experiencing.

[B]

I think you're in, like, a category of your own, to be honest.

[A]

Well, I was very inspired by the 60s. Men's. That was always my thing. I looked at that. Like, I would look at your, you know, your family's world and the Beatles world and Zeppelin and say, why can't we. Why can't we just be that? Why can't we just do our own thing? Just, why can't we just make our own world? Like, why do we have to be like anybody else?

[B]

No, I know, but your voice also has a sound. It has a certain sound to it. It's your own unique sound. It's you.

[A]

That's a. That's a whole. That's a different podcast, you see.

[B]

That's okay. I'm allowed to say that. You can take it.

[A]

You can say whatever you like. Thank you. I'm curious because we haven't talked about, you know, obviously we talked a bit about your dad, but, like, how were your, you know, your. Your uncles and stuff with your success and how were. Were they supportive and.

[B]

Yeah, they really were. But not Dennis, because Dennis died before. Dennis died when I was 15. So he was always like, this mysterious, sexy man, and he was my uncle, but, like, I get butterflies around him.

[A]

He was very handsome and obviously a sensitive guy, too.

[B]

You know, he's very sensitive.

[A]

That one. That one record, is it Pacific?

[B]

Pacific Blue. Ocean Blue. Pacific.

[A]

What a beautiful, beautiful album.

[B]

God damn it.

[A]

There's so much in your family, it's kind of frightening.

[B]

Well, thank you. But, yes. And they all three had big, big talent. Carl was an amazing writer, amazing singer. I have God only knows on my

[A]

God only nose, that vocal.

[B]

Oh, God, it's just.

[A]

That's one of the greatest vocals of all time.

[B]

I agree with you.

[A]

You listen to that vocal, and it's just like, where does that come from?

[B]

Stunning. He. He really had such a great sound.

[A]

Some people have a purity in their voice.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't mean a moral purity. There's a certain.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Straight. But it's so effective.

[B]

That was him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, he was protective. Carl was more protective. Dad just wasn't. We just weren't Spending time with him. So he. Oh. But then when he said to us, I followed you on the charts every week. So he was, you know, watching us through his. Behind his door. But Carl was like, you guys just have to keep going. And Wendy, you need to do country record. He was convinced that Wendy needed to do country because she had, like, a twang in her voice.

[A]

But if you look at where country is now, he wasn't that far off.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Country's never been bigger back then. It wasn't like it is now.

[B]

Well, we asked Carl to sing on. Well, we asked dad to sing on hey Santa. And he said no. So that was probably just. Cause he was. You know, someone told him, no, you can't do it. But Carl came and sang backgrounds. And I remember him singing on it, and he sounded great. But I miss him very much. I think about him all the time. And I have pictures around my house. And I feel his spirit a lot. And my dad really misses his brothers, like, a lot.

[A]

Yeah, it's intense. Cause if you look at rock history, like the Davies brothers, or there's an intensity when they're in the same group that I think it's hard for, I didn't have that. So, you know, I tried to beg my brother to be into music. He wasn't.

[B]

He wasn't into it.

[A]

I'll tell you a quick funny story. So my, you know, like you were saying, my voice has this quality, right? Sound, and we got it. My father actually sang higher than me, but didn't have the cut in the voice that came from my mother, but my mother didn't sing. So my brother had no interest in music, didn't want to play. He's more of a take stuff apart type of guy. And now he's an artist. And I was driving in the car with him one day, and he was listening to a song, and he forgot I was in the car, and he started singing along. And it was that voice. And I never in a million years thought, interesting, because he's got the same genetics, Duh. So it was the only time. And I begged my brother, I was like, please sing on a record with me. And he was like, no.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And he's got the same weird. Whatever that voice is. But I heard it outside my body for the first time in my life. I was like, what a trip. And it was, you know, as. You know, like. Cause the siblings, it's the same, but kind of different.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The tones. Tone. So I was like, totally.

[A]

I mean, I begged him, please just Sing on record. I'll make it easy for you. Sing one note.

[B]

But that's like my daughter Lucy. Lola's totally into music, and Lucy is too, but she won't do it. She's not a performer. They don't want to perform. They're too embarrassed or something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He doesn't have that.

[B]

Or they don't.

[A]

He doesn't have that. That narcissistic need for constant attention.

[B]

There's definitely that. I just really believe that is, of course.

[A]

Just look at me, please. More so I cannot find your 2003 soul album, which was called for the first Time.

[B]

It never came out.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

That's why.

[A]

Okay. I'm like, you know, I'm googling away, and I'm like, where's this record?

[B]

Had a baby.

[A]

And then so it's just sitting there unreleased.

[B]

There is no, There was never a full recorded album. I did. I recorded a couple Diane Warren songs, and then we just stopped the project.

[A]

Oh, okay. So that's why. That's the problem with the Internet is, like, you can't get to the bottom of certain news.

[B]

But I recorded a lullaby album that I heard. Yeah, that is a beautiful record. And I sang you are so beautiful with my dad, and that's one of the prettiest recordings we've ever done.

[A]

So I'm not trying to belabor the point about body stuff, but, you know, being in the public eye and having this relationship and then even kind of being very public about your struggles with it. And I read somewhere about. Because you did say about being alcoholic. Sobriety. And can you kind of just. And I guess what I'm asking is a very general question, but you tackle it how you want. Husband, family, sobriety, self acceptance, self love. Can you kind of walk me through that? Yes, because, sorry, here's the real context. Anybody who struggles with life, which is pretty much every person, Right. But once you're in the public side of the equation, it adds this other dynamic that makes that even more complicated. So I'm kind of curious how you navigated that.

[B]

First of all, no matter what I've been through, no matter what phase or what. What was happening, I've always let the public in because I, I feel, like, scared to hide things.

[A]

And that's interesting.

[B]

I don't know why. I, I, I think it's. I think it's ultimately that I, I have to connect with people. It's really important for me to feel

[A]

like, even though, you know, there's sort of a vulnerability in that.

[B]

Yes, I, I Think vulnerability is the most courageous thing ever feel or do or. I mean, to me, vulnerability is courage because you are open, exposed, and, like, that takes courage to just be like, I feel weak or I feel sad, or I feel. You know, And I've always had kind of a low chronic depression, and I've never hidden that.

[A]

But do you think that's genetic or is that environmental?

[B]

Both.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think it's both.

[A]

What's the environmental trigger in your mind?

[B]

Probably just, like, what do people think of me? And then ultimately going, well, really, Do I give a what someone thinks of me? Like, you think I'm.

[A]

But that's a yes and no question answer. Right? That's always that weird thing.

[B]

It is. But I was always a pothead. And then I stopped smoking, and I met my husband when I was at my heaviest weight, and I was becoming. I was gonna die for sure. I mean, I was really, really. I got Bell's palsy. I had my first acting role in a, you know, a television series called the 60s. And I played Mama Earth, a real character that was, like, in the Haight Ashbury, you know, and it was really fun. And then I got Bell's palsy when the premiere came out, and I walked on the red carpet, like, one eye open, you know, and I remember that. But I was at. I. I believe that I got Bell's palsy. And it really stopped me in my tracks and said, like, literally, freeze. Like, half my face froze. And I was like, God, going, freeze, Carney. Take this snapshot here. You're going. You're gonna die. So you have to do something from.

[A]

From.

[B]

From being overweight. Okay. And I had sleep apnea, and I couldn't breathe at night, and my blood pressure was up, and I was.

[A]

Was it. Was it. You know, whatever. It's not that important. But was it overeating or. I'm saying, where Were youe? What was your response?

[B]

Always overeating.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Just. Just completely broken up with the boyfriend. Like, you know, I was working at a needlepoint store. I was. I didn't know what I was gonna do about money. I was very depressed. I had gotten Bell's palsy. I had one acting role, you know, and I. And then beach boy Al Jardine asked if we would go do some shows with him with his sons and Matthew and Adam, and we had this great sound together. And then we started performing, and I met Rob on the road when I was with Al, it was at a thing called Vet Rock in Pennsylvania at a naval base. And I See this guy walk across the tent, the food tent, you know, and he's, like, really cute. And then his friend that brought him was interviewing Rob after he was writing a book, and he said, this is my friend Rob. And Rob goes, hi, it's nice to meet you. And I used to watch your talk show, and I really enjoyed watching you. And I said, thank you. But I remember that day. I was 310 pounds, but I was like, I'm going on stage, and I don't care how I look. I'm just gonna go and have a really good time. And I put little butterfly clips in my hair, and I put extra perfume on. Don't ask me why. And I met Rob that day. And then I have pictures of him. Someone took pictures of him in the front row watching me on stage. And there are these amazing pictures. Mouth is open. He was like, you know, couldn't believe it. And I. And he just dug the vibe. And then I got home, and it was before we had any kind. It was just message boards, you know, the Internet just started happening. And I got Rob Bonfilio, Wilson Phillips, message board, rob Bonfiglio says hi to you. And I was like, who is this guy? He's like, I met you backstage, and you were so sweet, and I loved your butterfly clips, and you smelled really good. And I wrote him back. I'm like, are you single? And that was it.

[A]

You just got right to the point.

[B]

I went right to the point. I'm like, are you single? He said, yeah. And he wasn't, actually. He lied to me, which was. Cause he was, like, in a major. He was gonna move to Madrid. Cause he had a love, you know. And then she called his house. When I was there. He was in the shower. They were gonna get engaged. And we had just gotten engaged. And I said, guess what? Don't ever call back again because he's mine. Bye. Her name was Virginia. I call her Vagina. I was mad at her.

[A]

But anyway, this was not on my dance table.

[B]

I know, I know. I really, like, went crazy. But anyway, Rob, Rob, like, we connected right away. And he was in a band called Wanderlust. And he's great guitar player, great songwriter. Just connected right off the bat. Like soulmate, hands down. Like two magnets. Absolutely.

[A]

And you've been together how long?

[B]

Never wanted to be apart? 25 years. And we fight all the time and we get on each other's nerves, but, you know, we are there for each other, and that's. And we trust each other, and we have two wonderful Children.

[A]

So healing, as you know, is not a. You figure out one thing and then you're healed. I always say it's a three dimensional process. You fix one thing and then you have to repair this other relationship. Of course, like wack wall, it's always, yeah, yeah. So kind of, where are you at in that arc now?

[B]

I would say that, you know, when. When I did. When we did get together, it was five years had passed and I had, like, lost a couple jobs. You know, I did some talk show hosting and. And I was very. Just behind with taxes and money was not good. And I started drinking. And after I lost a bunch of weight, I had the gastric bypass surgery. I said to Rob, I'm gonna get this surgery. It was right when I met him. And he goes, well, is it safe? And I said, yeah, it is. And he goes, we'll do it. I'll be there for you. And I became another person. And I wasn't used to being skinny. I got down to like a size 4 and I went from like a size 28 to a 4. And I was. I didn't recognize myself at all.

[A]

How'd you feel when you were there? Did you feel better? Worse.

[B]

I physically felt so much better, and I could do so many things, and it was great and wonderful, but it was absolutely terrifying. And I remember just like crying on his chest. And I go, I don't know who I am. I don't know who I am. I don't. When I look in the mirror, I don't understand who I'm seeing. It was really trippy. And I just. I had a little therapy with the therapist. He said, you gotta. You have to literally grieve the old body. And I tried.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah. He said, you have to say goodbye to the old body.

[A]

I mean, I'm asking you a psychological question, but isn't an attachment to something.

[B]

Yes, it's an attachment to my identity. Who's my identity?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, like, I couldn't because there are

[A]

some schools of thought and I've only read these things. It's not an opinion that sometimes people who put on a lot of weight, they almost want this physical distance. Yeah, sure.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I don't. I can't say I understand it, but,

[B]

you know, I always looked at it like strength. I know that sounds weird, but, like. Like, I'm not gonna get raped because a guy's not gonna find a fat girl attractive or I'm not gonna. No one's gonna hurt me or come close to me. I Didn't want attention from guys. I was scared to get attention from guys.

[A]

So kids, marriage, life.

[B]

Didn't know if I wanted to have children. I was just really drinking a lot. And I said to Rob, I want a baby. I want. I mean, I'm 37, 36. He goes, you're not in any shape to have kids. And that really hurt me. And I felt.

[A]

But was. Because it was true.

[B]

Cause it was true.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

And I spent a year asking everybody if they thought I was an alcoholic. So they were like, well, we don't see you drink that much. Well, because I was hanging out in my closet. So anyway, I got sober 12 step, and I'm still in it. And it's the greatest thing that ever happened to me. And Rob was there. He's been there through everything. And then I got pregnant two weeks after I got sober. And, you know, Lola was our first gift. And, you know, just moved. We've moved a few times. We've moved, like, four times since Lola was born. And it's hard because we've just, like, in and out of, like, making money, not making money. Enough money and not enough money. So I lost my home, and then we were renting, and now we just bought another house. But, like, it was just 20 years of no drinking. I've really grown up. Sobriety has taught me how to settle into my own skin. And just being a woman and knowing what I want, what I don't want, and what brings me peace, and I live for my children. You know, we've been sharing music together since they were born, so that's a whole other thing that's been happening. Being able to sing with my kids is. I thought it was great singing with Wendy in China. Oh, my God. We have the best sound.

[A]

Do you harmonize? Yes.

[B]

I was like a. Like a trainer, like a Navy seal, like a drill sergeant. You're flat. Don't do it again. But let me tell you.

[A]

So I think this is a good way to finish. So I've known different people because, you know, when your father was living outside of Chicago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I knew Joe Thomas a little bit, who helped kind of get your father going again musically, and then some other people from Chicago I knew. And so, you know, as you do in this business, you know, when you meet different people, you're like, you know, I was less interested in, you know, let's call it the constant chatter about your father's mental health, which is obviously, I'm not making light of it. I'm saying is. Yeah, that's been the number one topic of conversation with your father. I'm ultimately more interested in your father's musical ability.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

And, you know, I've seen him play live in those years with. Was it the Wonderments and that whole thing where they were doing Pet Sounds. And I saw one, even one beautiful night where there was like, UCLA or something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

[A]

I was there. And Al Jerdine came on play. It's just beautiful to hear that music live.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And of course, your father. Varying degrees of participation, but whatever. He wrote it and he. Of course, who cares if he's in the front row? He's there and it's a beautiful night. But I think the cool thing that I remember hearing, and I got to tell you one little story, the one time I met your father, so I said to somebody like, you know, kind of like, let's call it the how with it is your. Was your dad in this scenario? And they said, well, we, you know, we would rehearse up all this material with all those complex harmonies. And, you know, you'd see him, he'd be kind of staring off into space and thinking, oh, he's just not really here. And then somebody would hit a bum note and he would go like,

[B]

oh, yeah.

[A]

And he'd go, no, it goes like, da dee da poo ba poo da. And they're like, what the holy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They said his understanding of polyphony is frightening. And until you're in it with him and you see it in action, you're like, holy cow.

[B]

It is so remarkable. And as his daughter, I trip out a lot. And I'm so, like, proud of him for being the survivor he is and the contribution to music. I don't wanna cry. But, like, his contribution is so beautiful. And the layers of all his music is just so beautiful. And the thing that I want people to understand is that he is so grateful. He is so grateful to the people that love his music and the lives that he's touched. And he's aware of all of it. And he's also more aware of everything. And people don't realize that, yeah, he's run by fear. Hands down, 100%. And 100% of the time, too, he is run by fear. And it's so funny, because so am I. So I see a lot of similarities with us, and that's why we relate to each other so well.

[A]

This is why you need to write your own songs.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I'm telling you, I'm coming over.

[B]

I need to Tap into this.

[A]

I need to sit there, and I'm just gonna be quiet and listen.

[B]

And just listen. Well, the good news is, you know, I see him around three times a month, and we love to talk about music. So I'll. I'll just, like, play him a random song, you know, I'm like, baby, come back.

[A]

And he's listening, player. He's.

[B]

Player, player. He's like, I like that one. You know, and then we'll listen to Chicago, or we'll listen to, you know. But I was singing your song, which is my favorite Elton John song, and he really likes that song. But the good news is, you know, I can say that today, it's like, it doesn't matter what has happened in the past. I am so into. Where are your feet right now? Where are you right now? And if I keep thinking about that past stuff. Cause he's haunted by his past. But it's so strange because.

[A]

Can you define that at least a little bit? I'm not looking for gossip. I'm just.

[B]

I've never known anybody that can live in the past and be in the future, be in the present, like my dad. It is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. He is a remarkable person. He's got so much that he wishes he could take back. And I know that he has regrets, but I think that his childlike quality and his love for just food, and I know he loves his children and his grandchildren, but he has a problem expressing love. It's hard for him. It scares him. It scares him to show that love. I don't know if he's scared to be vulnerable like that, but I have been able to connect and tap into love with him over these years, and it's been the most healing, best thing ever. But the amount of acceptance that I've had to have around, like, what I'm going to be able to receive from him is my biggest life's lesson.

[A]

I get that. Yeah. It strikes me, you know, every person has a mythology, you know, and to me, this is my version. I didn't live it, but it's like he's the Promethean myth. He tapped in so early to such huge elemental forces. I mean, he didn't just tap into the zeitgeist of, like, surf and where music was going, the 60s. He literally tapped into the American songbook, the wider American story. And even he went for these crazy things, you know, the West. I can never think of that song where it's kind of a Western Rio Grande. No, it's after Pet Sounds. It's got like barrel house piano and something he wrote with Van Dykes.

[B]

But it's like Orange Crate art.

[A]

Oh, Heroes.

[B]

Or oh, Heroes and Villains.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, it's like he's like, trying to do John Wayne movies.

[B]

So cool.

[A]

It's like, so, like, what is happening?

[B]

So cool.

[A]

So, again, this is my projection. But when you tap into those elemental forces and you in your own way have tapped into them, when they invert and they invert at some point on everybody. Frank Sinatra on Down. Elvis Frank. But those same forces run you over.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Well, people don't know how to deal with it.

[A]

Well, by the way, there's no manual. There's no. There's no website.

[B]

No.

[A]

Here's what you do when your career goes the wrong way.

[B]

Right. I think my dad is afraid of his own. He doesn't know where it came from. Cause I asked him one time, how did you write God Only Knows? Or how did you write these melodies? Or how did you write this song? He said, I didn't write it, God did. So he's extremely spiritual. And I don't know what God it is, but it's his own God. And, you know, I feel like there is a weird, like. And I don't know how to say it right. With artists, there's just something that we can try to touch, but we can't touch because it's so individual, you know, it's like it came from inside someone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know what I mean?

[A]

But I subscribe.

[B]

What am I trying to say?

[A]

Well, I subscribe to the idea that artists are like prisms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm a spiritual person, so I believe that it does come from another place. And we just become the. The light refracted.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

And if it truly came from within us, then why can't we do it again and again and again? You know what I'm saying?

[B]

We can. It's our own.

[A]

Right. But what I'm saying is there's a celestial component to certain mythological narratives. You know what I mean? Because, you know, in your father's case, why was there just concentrated energy between 1962 and 1973 and all this music, you know what I mean? And the elemental forces that sort of seem to push him towards certain chasms that are, you know, obviously he had a hard time with. But again, I wasn't there. You know, I've only read the books, you know.

[B]

Right. I mean, my mom is someone that was there, you Know, she.

[A]

Yeah, you know what? I'm glad you brought that up, because I had written a note about your mother. Because, you know, there's that story behind every great man is a great woman, which doesn't really work in modern vernacular, but the idea is that there must have been something about your mother in that dynamic that was very powerful.

[B]

He still loves her so much, and she loves him so much. And at the new. The Beach Boys, new movie on Disney, the premiere, he was in his wheelchair. Cause he's had two really back surgeries. And my mom said, please take me to him. I want to say hi. And so, I mean, it was so cute. She walked up to him, and she couldn't say anything else. She just said, I love you, Brian. Mary. I love you. I love you. They just said, I love you. So cool. You know, and that was really great for me to see.

[A]

See, when you listen to a love song, he was singing about her. You see?

[B]

No question.

[A]

Okay, so we owe her that, too.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we do. Oh, we owe her. Oh, she would not be here if it wasn't for her.

[A]

Because I feel that sitting with you. Right. That level of light.

[B]

Yeah, I know. That's humbling, this gratitude.

[A]

See, when you write God Only Knows, I mean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's he singing about?

[B]

Who's he singing about? And your mommy. My mother. Yes. And, you know, there's this thing with, like, the new wife, the old wife, you know, and this. You know, and it's like, I heard

[A]

all the stories, of course, but like Melinda, especially in Chicago.

[B]

Right. But Melinda did help him get back out there and in his life. And I'll always be in debt to her for that. But it's like my mother was the one that kept him alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so it's interesting. He will always be grateful to her, and she will be grateful, and she'll always love him. I mean, it's her first love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's a comforting thing, you know, because they're divorced.

[A]

Who wants to think that their parents didn't love each other?

[B]

Right. And, you know, I mean, I'm very fortunate that that's the case, but. Yeah, he's a complex man, but we all are in our own way. But I'm just grateful that I get to. Yeah. To be with him again.

[A]

So my last little story. So I went to see your father play in Chicago one night, and, God, it would have been like 20 something years ago.

[B]

Did he start coughing in the middle of a song?

[A]

No, I don't remember that. I just Remember I went to the show and then maybe because of Joe Thomas or something, somebody said, you know, if you come backstage, I can probably introduce you or something. And I just got the feeling like maybe it's not a good thing, you know? And they're like, no, no, come on, come. Come in. Come, let me introduce you. So the guy brings me in and your dad was sitting on a couch. He looked up and he said, you know, somebody said, oh, this is Billy. But he looks at me, goes, what do you do?

[B]

God in heaven.

[A]

And I didn't know what to say because I thought, well, if I tell him I'm a musician, right? He's just going to think, yeah, so is everybody a musician? I wanted him to kind of know who I was, but I didn't make a big display of it. So I think. I don't know what I said. I said something very simple, and he was nice and we took a picture together and he later signed it for me and all that. So it was all good. But what is weird, the reason it's a bad memory is because I came out of the room and there was a Time magazine reporter for some reason was around, and he identified himself and he said, can. He said, can I quote that exchange? And I said, no, because that's a private moment between me and Brian.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And. And. And I said, plus, you know, it was awkward because I didn't know how to answer the question. But. But. And I told the guy, look, whatever I said, I said I wasn't trying to be egoistic. It's somebody I really respect. And I was trying to find the right words.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he put it in the magazine and made me look really bad. Like. Like I was offended that. That your dad didn't know who I was and how.

[B]

Ugh. Just horrible. Oh, they're the worst. Reporters are the worst. Just. Mother is right. Wait, really fast. I know. We're wrapping it up. Well, the funniest.

[A]

You're controlling my interview.

[B]

I'm sorry. Wait, I have tasing right now. No, I'm not getting ready. This is going to make you laugh because it reminded me of this. Only my dad would do this. Don Henley released his book Walden Woods. Whatever. And my dad had a book. I don't forgot what it was called. Wouldn't it be Nice or whatever. One of the books that he didn't. That he didn't write. He was releasing it and there was. There was like a release party or autograph signing. Autograph signing. And Don said, I really want to meet Brian. So he went up, brought a picture. Oh, no. Brought a book, and said, brian, would you sign this for me? This is Don Henley. And so he said, sure, Don. So he wrote to Don, the Eagles are a great group. Love Brian Wilson. And so Don said, thank you. Brian walked away, you know, and he goes, don, come back here. Come back here. Let me have that. Let me have what I. Let me have that book. Crossed out the word great and wrote good. And then he said to him, oh. And Don said, why did you do that, Brian? He said, because the Beatles are great, the Eagles are good. Poor Don and I. And the funny part is that I know I'm gonna get killed for saying this. I love the Eagles more than the Beatles. That's just me.

[A]

But you're safe here in Southern California.

[B]

I'm safe in Southern California, but outside the. I'll be literally killed.

[A]

You're gonna have a hard time.

[B]

But how funny is he that he did that? Crossed out great?

[A]

Well, he did. He did compose in a sandbox. And I know, I know, we know all the stories, but my mother.

[B]

Yeah, my mother opened the door and they said, we have your two tons of sand. And she went, what? She said, three days, Brian. That's it. So she let them bring all the sand in. She said, there were so many bugs, she said, get it out of my house.

[A]

So it was only three days.

[B]

It was only three days.

[A]

See, that's a story that never ends, though. Uh huh. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Fun.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I love it. Oh, I can talk to you for like five hours.

[A]

Thank you.