Dale Bozzio | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Episode: Dale Bozzio | April 17, 2025

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Overview

In this vibrant and deeply personal episode, Smashing Pumpkins frontman Billy Corgan sits down with Dale Bozzio, trailblazing singer of Missing Persons and Zappa collaborator. The conversation traces Bozzio’s remarkable journey from Boston roots and Playboy Bunny days to her iconic work in music, underscored by brushes with death, the indelible influence of Frank Zappa, and candid reflections on love, survival, and artistic identity. Through stories both wild and moving, Bozzio’s singular voice stands out—not just sonically, but spiritually—as she and Corgan share an unguarded, Pisces-to-Pisces exchange about what it means to reinvent yourself and keep creating against all odds.

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Key Topics & Insights

Identity, Influence & the "Original Lady Anybody"

• On being compared to Lady Gaga:
  “I'm not the original anybody, because first of all, I came before Lady Gaga, so I don't know how I could be the original lady anybody, you know, number one. Okay, so let's get real here.” (00:01)
• Dale underscores her unique persona. She attributes her authenticity to Frank Zappa’s mentorship, not any attempt at imitation.

Roots, Family, and Upbringing

• Growing up in Boston:
  • Daughter of Italian Roman Catholic immigrants.
  • Father: a builder/carpenter with an unconventional edge (“never paid a day in tax” 08:32).
  • Family adversity—estranged from her mother from age 9, raised by her father (30:18).
  • A sense of outsider status and longing for love and validation (“I’m the ugly duckling at school. I’m the one no one talks to…” 66:06).

Brushes with Death & Survival

• Coma and transformation:
  • At age 21 (1976), Dale fell 40ft from a window while escaping an assault, resulting in a half-year coma and temporary blindness (00:25, 12:54-13:08).
  • “Passed out in 76 and woke up in 77. You gotta remember, I fell 40ft out of a window.” (00:25)
  • Frank Zappa called her during her recovery to invite her on tour, marking her rebirth as an artist and performer (14:33).

Zappa & Artistic Genesis

• Zappa’s role:
  • Dale stresses that Zappa not only recognized a unique timbre in her voice but championed her spirit and encouraged her leap into music—despite no formal training (“Frank made me an icon. I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth.” 16:36/16:57).
  • Candid stories about Zappa’s world: touring, recording Joe’s Garage, and hilarious anecdotes (shrimp & cookies tour joke, 15:59-16:22).

Unlikely Pathways: From Playboy Bunny to Rock Innovator

• Career turns:
  • Professional pool shark and Playboy Bunny at 18, “Billiards Bunny” (20:29-21:00).
  • A pivotal encounter with Zappa in LA: Dale, newly jobless after rebuffing Hugh Hefner, stumbles into Zappa’s studio in black leather, seeking work and inadvertently lands the role of “Mary” on Joe’s Garage (24:33–27:14).
  • “I just left Hugh Hefner's house. I have no job, no money, gas is on E, I'm not parked in a good space, and I'm really hungry, Frank.” (25:13)

Forming Missing Persons: Equal Footing & Band Chemistry

• Band origins:
  • Inspired by Zappa’s challenge (“You three put a band together, I’ll pay for it. You call it the Cute Persons.” 46:23).
  • Formation with Terry Bozzio (drummer/husband) and Warren Cuccurullo.
  • Emphasis on being an equal in a male-dominated context: “You weren’t the cute chicky with the boy band. You were in the band. And maybe that came from being in Frank’s world. You were an equal. You, Warren, and Terry.” (58:28)
  • “I have an installed courage from a man’s point of view, in a man’s world. I was raised by an incredible man, my father that impressed me to be this way.” (59:57)

Artistic Identity & Vulnerability

• On songwriting and singing:
  • Considers herself “a poet” more than a traditional singer (53:10).
  • Corgan on Bozzio’s uniqueness: “You presented a really radical image of femininity and freedom at a time where that really wasn’t the case. Now half the world looks like you.” (57:44)
  • Of her craft: “When you're just doing you, you become so impressive if you do it genuinely.” (61:13)

Prince, the Music Industry, and Standing Her Ground

• Wild encounter with Prince:
  • Dancing at Tramps, late-night Corvette ride (“He goes, can you drive me really fast? ...I’m at Wilshire in Santa Monica. I'm at 120 by the time I get to Westwood, okay, he's screaming, stop, stop.” 39:02-39:24).
  • Prince played her “Windows” (her song) on his tape deck, then asked her to listen for eight hours and nearly proposed after a night together (42:25–43:44).
  • On her Paisley Park-era album and Prince: “He wouldn’t come… He didn’t want to influence me. I think he wanted to see if I really could do it.” (70:39)

Love, Loss, and Healing

• Relationships:
  • Deeply honest about not fully surrendering her heart in romance, possibly due to childhood wounds (“Love is a big question. Did you ever surrender your heart to anybody other than your children? No, because...can’t do it. Don’t know how.” 65:29–65:45)
  • Remains connected to ex-husbands, lost friends; describes tragic loss of a dear friend to suicide and how it shaped her recent album, Hollywood Lie (84:46, 87:48).
• On parents:
  • Mother’s mysterious, difficult past (born in prison, raised in a nunnery; 30:36).
  • “My father dedicated his life to me and took care of me… She [mother] was more like a butterfly than a mother.” (29:57–32:18)

Resilience, Courage, and Legacy

• Loss, change, survival:
  • Describes working through heartache, band dissolutions, and changing music trends. “Everything started going down the drain. No one would listen to me anymore.” (76:30)
  • “Because I'm Dale and I do what I do, and that's what I do… I'm just living my life.” (62:59)
• Commitment to sharing her truth:
  • Emphasis on documenting her own story via a memoir: “I would like everyone to have the information here, so they have it from the horse's mouth. Because people assume things…that they don't really know the truth.” (66:55–67:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Manifesting originality:
  • “I'm not the original anybody…I came before Lady Gaga.” (00:01)
• On her voice:
  • “I’m a non-singer. I come from...well, I developed into something from nothing.” (02:40)
• On Frank Zappa:
  • “Frank threads the whole book. That’s why I’m telling you this story. Frank saved my life. Frank made me an icon.” (16:36)
  • “You gotta write a song called ‘Destination Unknown’ cause I fell out a window and I know a few things.” (47:02)
  • “Don’t sing anything you can’t sing in front of me.” (61:44)
• About style and art:
  • “Taking apart posters on the wall, having no money to go to the shopping center, having to go to the plastic store and buying a sheet of plastic for $5… I was working with my crafts...I wasn't looking to impress anybody, but that's what's so beautiful about it.” (60:36–61:13)
• On surviving the system:
  • “This is a real rock and roll gig of life. If you commit yourself to this, you may become famous, you may not…but that’s the choice.” (73:19)
• Heartbreak of artistic evolution:
  • “Everything started going down the drain. No one would listen to me anymore.” (76:30)
  • “Did you get your heart broken along the way?”
    “Got everything broken, yeah.” (76:26–76:30)
• The creative’s drive:
  • “When you're just doing you, you become so impressive if you do it genuinely.” (61:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro / Identity Discussion: (00:01–01:26)
• Early Life, Family, and Upbringing: (04:14–11:12)
• The Coma, Trauma, and Recovery: (11:21–14:33)
• First Meeting With Zappa, Playboy Bunny Days: (17:36–27:40)
• Formation of Missing Persons: (46:23–52:00)
• Band Dynamics and Gender: (58:28–61:13)
• Songwriting, Artistic Legacy: (53:10–55:04)
• Prince Anecdote: (37:46–44:32)
• On Loss, Motherhood, and Healing: (29:57–33:51, 84:51–88:28)
• Recent Album and Artistic Process: (84:46–90:51)
• Conclusion / Reflections on Courage and Love: (90:17–90:56)

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Final Thoughts

Dale Bozzio’s life reflects extraordinary resilience and unabashed individualism. Through her honest and unfiltered conversation with Billy Corgan, this episode offers rare insight into the complexities of survival, creation, and legacy as a woman at the vanguard of rock and pop. Ultimately, Bozzio claims her place not only as a pioneer but as an enduring spirit still searching, still creating, still loving—on her own singular terms.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[A]

I'm not the original anybody, because first of all, I came before Lady Gaga, so I don't know how I could be the original lady anybody, you know, number one. Okay, so let's get real here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth.

[B]

Did you like being a Playboy bunny?

[A]

I did. And I was a billiards bunny. I shot pool.

[B]

And how's your pool?

[A]

Superior. I passed out in 76 and woke up in 77. You gotta remember, I fell 40ft out of a window.

[B]

You were in a coma for a year.

[A]

Half a year. Life support.

[B]

I'm here with one of my favorite singers of all time, Ms. Dale Bozio. I bought this book not long ago. I love this book. You put a lot of your heart in this book.

[A]

Now, are you asking me that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or telling me that?

[B]

I'm asking because I feel like your heart's really in. Well, let's put.

[A]

Yes, I agree.

[B]

You're a fellow Pisces like me.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

You're March 2nd, right. And March 17th. So I understand your pain. That's where we're going to start this interview.

[A]

Okay, well, now we're on.

[B]

No, but I. But.

[A]

I know, but as a fan of

[B]

yours, I always feel you always led with your heart in your music. Does that. Is that accurate?

[A]

Yes. Or my.

[B]

Okay, but is that how you are in life? Because that's how I feel. But I don't know that.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

So this.

[A]

This book, I think you know more than you say you do. Now that we know that we're not

[B]

birthdays, we're doing Pisces.

[A]

And where we're coming from is a level. I love that shirt.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

Yeah. You look very. You look fantastic. Look fantastic.

[B]

Well, I know I had to dress up for you.

[A]

Well, thank you very much.

[B]

You always had true style.

[A]

It wasn't. I tell you the thing about that style and those Plexiglas, we.

[B]

We're not. The Plexiglass bloobs are on like, page four of these.

[A]

Okay, whatever. I'm with you.

[B]

We're starting with music.

[A]

What about it?

[B]

Well, your most recent album, Hollywood Lie, Right.

[A]

Is. Yes.

[B]

So I was curious on that because I felt like you were kind of going for, I don't want to say a retro sound because it's not fair to call your sound retro because you invented that sound. But did you purposely want to make kind of a 80s ish sounding missing person's record? Does it make sense?

[A]

That's a big question.

[B]

Well, they're all big questions.

[A]

I mean, the music is one thing, the attitude's another. The process is one and all. And why you do it is another reason.

[B]

Yeah, so for me you pick one of those.

[A]

So for me, the music, the reason that came out that way was I don't take the intention of sounding any which way for any reason. I'm a non singer. I come from.

[B]

I'm gonna argue with you about that, by the way.

[A]

Well, okay, well, I developed into something from nothing.

[B]

Right, but that's why you're a great singer.

[A]

Well, so I just sort of self taught in a facet and so with the music of how that Hollywood lie ended up was that I said I want to focus on being simple and synchronize my impression of my vocal of how that will be taken. What impression that is going to set on you when you hear me say say these words.

[B]

Okay, so you thought that musical backdrop

[A]

was sing to you? I wanted now after all I've done. I mean, that's why, I mean only because, not because I'm a new band and I'm looking for hit number one bang top, you know, gotta have a riff and kick and, you know, what's the glitch? No, that's not the story. I have to succumb to people like you that would say, oh, what, what does this mean? What does this mean?

[B]

Well, that's what I'm asking you.

[A]

Right. So that's. I guess I did the right thing then.

[B]

Ah, you made me ask the question, which is what you wanted.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, thank you very much. Okay, I'd appreciate that.

[B]

I'm curious. We're going back here to the beginning. So you were born In Boston in 1955?

[A]

Mm, yes.

[B]

Catholic family?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How did I know that? I just can feel it.

[A]

Because I'm polite.

[B]

Italian, Roman. Okay, Roman Catholic. Yeah, me too.

[A]

My great grand uncle of the seventh generation died acting Pope in the Vatican in Rome. My father is Roman and when I went to Rome on tour with Frank Sappa, he got paperwork for me to be allowed to go into the Vatican to see all the frozen. Cryogenically frozen popes. Because one of them was my name. Consalvi, my maid. My father's name was a Roman name called.

[B]

Did you go in?

[A]

Yeah. And that I got. Cause it was on my passport. Consalvi.

[B]

So you saw the frozen posts?

[A]

I saw all the frozen posts.

[B]

Was it wild?

[A]

Terry Bozio came with me and Terry says, can we take a Polaroid like Terry? You're serious, right? We went in with Scarfs on. Terry said, get the scarf up over his nose. It's pumps like this. And all these pulps are above your head, like eye level. Up in these clear caskets. Dressed to the nines in their papa and all this.

[B]

Did you see your ancestor?

[A]

Yeah, and I stood right next to him. And so we leave, we see and we do all this stuff, you know, paperwork all assigned to get in, get out and all this stuff. Yeah. And then consolidate. The Pope's all over the Vatican. He's in the walls, the whole nine yards. Right. So we go back to Frank's, the hotel, and Frank's. Zappa says to Terry, well, does she look like the Pope, Terry? Because she looks exactly like him. She looks exactly like him. They stand next to each other. I couldn't believe it. And then that's what was like the biggest. Because prior to going on that tour, I had fallen out of a window. But I had made Joe's Garage. I was never in Frank's band. Yeah, I was. I only made records with Frank.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So because I made Joe's Garage with Frank then he was thinking of doing all this other stuff, so he took me on the tour with him.

[B]

Ah, this is 70.

[A]

It's like 79. 78. 78.

[B]

And my father, by the way, my father was a musician. He was obsessed with that record. So I heard that record a lot.

[A]

Oh, no, really.

[B]

My dad was a stoner drug dealer type who would listen to Zappa.

[A]

Was his middle name Dale?

[B]

Yes. Did you know that?

[A]

I did. I noted that. I noted that.

[B]

William Dale Corgan.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's very, very.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Very staunch, very.

[B]

Do you know what? Is Dale Gaelic or is it.

[A]

Dale only really means a small valley. That's it. That's what it means. But it. See, I personally was named after Dale Evans, the woman that was the singer. Cowboy. Very famous back then in the 50s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's what.

[B]

Who was kind of the paragon of virtue.

[A]

And that was sort of what.

[B]

So young Catholic girl growing up in Boston, family religious or just kind of in name only?

[A]

No, my family. My father wasn't that. He believed in God and thought God was watching us upstairs. He thought God lived on the third floor of our house. But he met me at the breakfast table with 45 and a glass of whiskey. So I don't know how happy he was with that. And, you know, it seemed all right to me. I mean, it seemed like the normal thing to do. Right. You know, he cooked me a five course breakfast. Lunch was Waiting dinner was like. You could smell it down the block.

[B]

What did your daddy do?

[A]

My father was a builder.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

A builder and a carpenter for a lot of really different. No.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So, yeah.

[B]

Was that hard in Boston?

[A]

Never paid a day in tax.

[B]

Ah. Okay, now I feel your flow now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And my father had a semi full of Chesterfield cigarettes and Lucky Strikes in the driveway. And the other semi had some friends. Yeah. And the other semi was full of whiskey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So no training as a singer? Yeah. Right. I mean, did you sing when you were young, though?

[A]

Yeah, I used to fake it and sing the Pied Piper in the Window. I'm the Pied Pied. Follow me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you sang along to the radio type thing?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But you. You never saw yourself as a singer?

[A]

No, I wanted to be a movie star.

[B]

Okay. And who were your. Who did you admire as a movie star?

[A]

Veronica Lake. Jean Hollow.

[B]

Have you. Have you met the guy here who's the Jean Harlo expert?

[A]

No.

[B]

I could. I could introduce you to him. A friend of mine is one of his friends. He has the greatest Jean Harlo collection. I think he has her car. He has all this crazy stuff of Gene Harlow.

[A]

Oh, Lord.

[B]

He even has. When she would do her makeup and, like, they would, you know, like a woman will do, like, they kiss her lips.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he has the original tissue. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So if you want me to introduce you to this gentleman.

[A]

Okay. He's like.

[B]

He's like the leading Gene Harlow expert in the world and wrote a book on her and.

[A]

Oh, that's insane.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my Lord.

[B]

So, Gene Harlow.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, Veronica Lake.

[B]

You know, the peekaboo, right?

[A]

Yeah. I just. I admired all those.

[B]

Did you want to be, like, a film noir type of actress or.

[A]

I watched movies with my father till it went off on the ute. On the show when I was growing up, because we didn't have the availability that you have now of what this movie is.

[B]

So what was it about?

[A]

What I saw were the black and whites with these women that all had blonde hair that appeared to me, with these skinny little dresses on, had, like, fancy cars and fur coats and were always smiling and drinking. And I thought, okay, that's what I want to be. Okay.

[B]

So did you like girl groups? I mean, what was the kind of music you did like?

[A]

To be honest with you, I really. Not a musically based person of life. I'm more.

[B]

You're not a music listener?

[A]

Movies? No. I watch many movies. I. I could digest 10 to 12 movies if I had to. I have so many movie channels. I watch more, more movies than I have to catch up.

[B]

My wife laughs. Cuz I only watch like 30s movies. That's me.

[A]

Well, I listen, I watched 40 movies. 40s movies.

[B]

You're more 40s.

[A]

Yeah, I'm all 40s movies. Because when I was growing up in the 55s, I was watching the movies. You got to remember the movies that I'm watching.

[B]

What are some of your favorite 40s movies?

[A]

I can't even remember off the top of my head right now. You know, you got to remember I fell 40ft out of a window.

[B]

Okay, but I. What year did you fall out the window?

[A]

I was 21. It was 1970. September. Listen, I wrote the book for three reasons. Let's. Let me just clear this up with you. Yeah. This book we're plugging now that you keep asking me these like in leading questions. We're just getting started to my life. But the reason I wrote that book is one of the reasons On September 10, 1976, I fell out of a window. Right from downtown LA, Los Angeles, of Holiday Inn.

[B]

That was the story that somebody was trying to come in and hurt you or rape you or.

[A]

They was. They were trying. They were going to kill me, basically. That's what.

[B]

Did you know this person or.

[A]

No, it was a security guard and he told me that he was going to kill me. And I. That word. And I suppose you run for help, right? So I ran for help, opened the window and.

[B]

You are a little thing.

[A]

Well, it's just a little girl I had, you know, I had actually gold cowboy boots on. You know, I was just regularly watching Johnny Carson. My cousin had just had an asthma attack. Anyway, make a long story short, I fell out the window. This was just weeks after I finished making Joe's garage. 1, 2, 3 and 4. Now my life ends, I slip into a coma. I wake up in Frank Zappa's living room. Coma again, shipped me to Boston. Life support. I wake up, I'm a year older.

[B]

You were in a coma for a year?

[A]

Half a year. Life support.

[B]

Were you in and out or you. You were out?

[A]

Oh, no. Out.

[B]

So for six months you're out?

[A]

Oh no. Eight. Close to. Yeah.

[B]

Do you. Do you remember anything from being out or were you just out?

[A]

No, I was out for a long time.

[B]

But I'm saying, do you. Were you dreaming during this period or you're just out?

[A]

Out. Wow, Blank. Life supports.

[B]

It's a miracle you're here.

[A]

Life supports. Medicine. Well, yeah, I Broke my kneecap, broke my floating ribs and split my head open. 52 stitches. And really a miracle to be alive.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Pretty much. And so I wanted that stated to the world more. So. And then recorded in my own words to say what happened.

[B]

Is that where the Window song.

[A]

Yeah, that's where all the songs really come from. That's when I wake up and I write destination unknown. Oh, boy. Oh, really? Is that what happens? You clearly black out and that's it, and there's nothing. Nothing. And when I woke up, it all came back. And it came back really fast, I see. And smashingly. And for six months I was blind because of the concussion and the whole coma, blah, blah. And so then Frank Zappa rang my mother's home phone under the clear blue sky and say, we're going on a tour to Europe. Want to come with me tomorrow? I'm like, this is my own phones, right? And I said, yes, Frank, Okay, I'll go. I basically think it was 77 now, because that's when I woke up. I passed out in 76 and woke up in 77. And so Frank called and I.

[B]

You weren't married at this point yet, right?

[A]

No, no. I only knew Terry at. At the beginning. But at the beginning we had a relationship and Terry always said it should have been a one night stand. And, you know, weren't they all.

[B]

Sounds like a drummer.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You know, really doesn't surprise me, you know? No. I love Terry Bozio, you know. Love Terry Bozio. I told him then he would be one of the greatest drummers in the world. Had to convince him night after night after night after night. There's some things that just a woman knows. I tell them, but I had an incredible time with Terry, you know. So what happened then? Terry? I met Terry and Frank in the airport in New York. And the next day, my mother thought I lost my mind. I'm on morphine. I'm like, you know your headaches. I go, yeah, well, no more CAT scans for me, babe. See. See you later. I gotta go. And I just said, I'm not gonna die. Everything's all right. And I left. And that was it. And I. And Frank just said, come on, let's go. Go to Europe. We get to every. Every single lunch, dinner. The waitress man would come. You say, okay, this is Dale. Now, she just fell 40ft out of a window and she wants shrimp and cookies. Let's get that. And the whole band would sit there and go, he's not doing this. He's not literally. And he did every.

[B]

Did you want shrimp and cookies?

[A]

Yeah, I did. I did.

[B]

Why shrimp and cookies.

[A]

That was the only thing I could think of. He put me on the spot so many times. He said, what do you want to eat? What's your favor? I go, I don't know, Frank. Shrimp and cookies. And I could live it down. I swear to God. I swear by the time we get to the end of the tour, we're like three months later.

[B]

How skinny were you at this point?

[A]

The waitress came and the whole band went, she wants shrimp and cookies. It was hysterical.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

I guess she had to be there.

[B]

No, it sounds.

[A]

It was insane.

[B]

It sounds Zappa esque.

[A]

I had the most impressionable time with Frank. Frank threads the whole book. That's why I'm telling you this story. Frank saved my life. Frank made me an icon. I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth.

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

Nothing more than that.

[B]

Outside of the musicality in you, which I want to talk about, what did Frank see in you?

[A]

Well, that's something else.

[B]

Okay, but I want to get to that. But what did Frank see in you as a person?

[A]

You think you could hear the timbre in my voice when I speak? You. You hear that edge? That's what Frank heard.

[B]

No, but I want to. I want to say when he saw

[A]

you as a person, that's what he said.

[B]

Okay, but I want to.

[A]

He said, I hear it.

[B]

Well, of course he would hear it.

[A]

I hear you. I hear you. And you. He say, you are hysterical. And that's it. And he.

[B]

So you feel like he understood you?

[A]

The day I met him, I climbed in. I climbed up three flights of the Orpheum Theater in Boston. The fire escape. And I climbed in the window and I opened the door and Frank was standing there, and he looked at me and he went, how did you get in here? I said, frank, I climbed into the fire escape and I climbed into the bathroom window.

[B]

He went like a Beatles song.

[A]

He said, you didn't do that. I said, there's a bathroom. I did. He knew it was the bathroom because it was a backstage bathroom. It was one bathroom, one window, and you couldn't get in and out of there except through the fire escape. He started laughing hysterically. He laughed hysterically.

[B]

Why did you climb in through the window to see the house?

[A]

Because I had to see the concert. Were you a Zappa fan? I was a Zappa fan at the time.

[B]

Were you one of those stoner Zappa fans?

[A]

Yes, I was a Hippie, originally. So I was completely into Frank's oddity, and it wasn't. And it was either that or Tavares, because I love dancing.

[B]

The soul band.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

What was their big hit?

[A]

Disco Queen Heaven Must Be Missing an Angel. Yeah.

[B]

Tavares.

[A]

Yeah. I'm the biggest fan ever, you know, so. But then, you know, I switch to the other side and get a little, kind of like Prague, you know? Interesting. And I listen a little. I listen a little more to Frank and he's really playing it himself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and like, go. Hmm. Okay. So anyway. So anyway, as it went on, my relationship with Frank grew because by the time that was 16 when I met him, through the dressing room window.

[B]

16 years old.

[A]

Yes. Now, he asked me out to the dinner. I go out to the dinner. He asked me into the hotel room. I say, frank, I can't go into the hotel room. I don't even have a driver's license. I'm driving this car. I can't go to your party. I'm 16. He said, you're right. You can't go to the party. And he kissed me on the forehead. And he walked away and said, goodbye, I'll see you again. I just looked at him, lit up a joint and drove away crying, thinking, that's not possible. I was 16 that day. And he was doing some big tour at the time. 12 piece orchestra. I end up being 21. I'm in California and I'm in the Playboy magazine. I'm Playboy Bunny of the Year for Boston.

[B]

I stop you there. How do you become Playboy Bunny of the Year?

[A]

Hefner has to pick you.

[B]

So you were just picked out of

[A]

a lineup, out of. He gets all these photographs because he's the editor and he picks up who

[B]

thinks, did you like being a Playboy bunny?

[A]

I did.

[B]

It was kind of. There was a bit of prestige.

[A]

Absolutely. In Boston.

[B]

Yeah. You wore the costume with the tail.

[A]

Yes, I did.

[B]

Did you have pictures of you like this?

[A]

I do, I do. And I was a billiards bunny. I shot pool.

[B]

And how was your pool?

[A]

Superior. Absolutely.

[B]

They used to, like, take the marks.

[A]

I won every game. That was it. I think I made more money then than I do now.

[B]

Pool shark.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I never knew you were a pool.

[A]

My brother taught me how to play pool down the basement. He was nine years older than me and he was a pool shark. And I wasn't gonna tell anybody that.

[B]

Let him think they're gonna beat the little girl up in pool.

[A]

I knew everything about the sticks and the do you still play? I haven't played lately, but I can. You know, it's interesting though, right? When your childhood mechanisms. I was still, just still a kid. I was hired to be a Playboy bunny the day I turned 18, right. So I was a bunny from 18 to 21. And by the time I got to 21, Hefner called me to come to California. When I came to California, Hefner wouldn't come downstairs from his balcony. And I kind of flipped out because I'm from Boston and I have an edge and an attitude. And I said, I have a previous engagement. I gotta go. And I walked out of the mansion, and that was my day that I was gonna be Valentine at the front door, move in, be a centerfold, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I walked out. I had, like this anxiety attack. Turned around and walked out, Grabbed my Playboy magazine from the secretary and left. And I said, okay, keep going. There was no turning back. I turned on. I was driving a Firebird. It was a 19. It was a 1972. Had you driven out five speed Recaro seats? Yes.

[B]

Oh, so you'd driven out, then me

[A]

drove it with two Playboy bunnies in the backseat. Navy blue rag top, down black interior,

[B]

five speed, always styling.

[A]

I blew from Boston to Hefner's house. Now he wouldn't talk to me, and I was a little off. I peeled out of that mansion at about a 190, you know, I was so mad, I couldn't even shift the car. I was going so fast. I pulled out of the air and I went. Oh, you. That's really great. Where are you gonna go now? You know, I have this other side of me. You know what I mean? I really do. I have this, like, Dale over here, shoulder going. I know. I'm like that commercial on tv. You do it?

[B]

If it was. If it was Dale Autry.

[A]

Yeah. Like, there's a couple of people, like,

[B]

on the horse, like you exactly. Going the wrong way.

[A]

I gotta kind of get that attitude, you know? Like, I just. If things don't go my way, not that I don't mean it, but I exit because it could be dangerous. I see things differently than people do. And in an extreme emergency, you want me. You want me. I'll see you.

[B]

Well, you've survived death.

[A]

Well, I will go. I'm like the fireman that runs into the fire.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like the fool. Men. Fireman laughs Is this where you end

[B]

up going to find Frank Zappa? Is this.

[A]

Yeah, this is what happened. That's what happened. And that same Day? Yeah, it was 15 minutes later. I'm on Sir Studio Instrumental Loss in Hollywood.

[B]

But why'd you go there?

[A]

Because I had a guitar player that was just up and coming, and he told me he was going to be there if anything went wrong. And he lived on North Orange Drive in in California, and I was sleeping on his couch.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The day before, I was supposed to move into the mansion.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Okay. So now I get to this lot. I'm on E. I'm in black leather, head to toe. I'm this little blonde girl, you know, I can't hear from Boston. I get, like, my black leather jack in the back. I didn't know it was gonna be 95 degrees.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I walk on the lot, I hear this music playing. And I know it's Frank. Cause I know Frank's miser. I look over to the door. The door has a sign on it, big letters. If you value your life, do not open this door.

[B]

So you open the door.

[A]

I open the door. I open the door, there's Frank. He's looking at me. He says.

[B]

He says, did he recognize you?

[A]

Yeah. He says, what are you doing here? I mean, Frank, you recognize me? Yeah. You just opened the door? Yeah. From Boston. What are you doing here? I go, well, now, that was 16 when he met.

[B]

Yes. This is five years later.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like, frank, you remember me? He goes, yeah. What are you doing? What are you doing? I'm just standing there in black leatherhead to do, holding a Playboy magazine. The last time I saw him, I had green hair with a mini skirt and a marabou top on, right. With these spike shoes. And he goes, okay. I go, well, I just left Hugh Hefner's house. I don't have a job. I have no money. The gas is on E. I'm not parked in a good space, and I'm really hungry, Frank.

[B]

And he is the band all sort of sitting there. Is this.

[A]

The band's right there? Yeah, it's Eddie Jobson. Okay. Is it Eddie Jobson? Over There is Patrick O'Reilly and Terry Bozio. Damn right. Damn right. And I'm standing there like I'm sweating. Because it's like such an incredible story, you know? Like, I go, I'm right there. Like, I'm right there. And I go. I go, frank. I look at the whole thing. I go, really? Sorry to interrupt, Frank. And I kind of like, stop walking backwards. He goes, no, no, no, wait. No, wait. You need a job? I go, yeah, I do, Frank. I need a job. I Said, I've got to go call my mother. I gotta get Western Union, you know, I gotta go back to Boston, you know, I drove here. He said, you drove here? Yeah, I drove here. He said, okay, well, okay, there's an apple over there. And I'm gonna put you on the payroll tomorrow. You're going to be Mary. You're gonna meet Mary from Joe's Garage. And I needed Mary, and you're my Mary. And I went. But, Frank, I came to Hollywood to be an actress, a movie star.

[B]

Sorry, movie star, not actress.

[A]

I don't know how to sing. He started laughing hysterically. He fell down on the floor, laughing on his knees, like, literally holding his head. Okay? It was the most incredible scene you've ever seen in your life. Frank Zappa just literally laughing his ass off. Like, literally. And those three over there didn't know what the. Was going on, right? They thought I was his girlfriend, right? So Frank goes, okay, you're on the payroll.

[B]

Here's an apple. Here's an apple.

[A]

And he's telling them, mary's here. It's Mary. He's so happy, you know?

[B]

And you never sang professionally a day in your life?

[A]

No. I'm like, frank, Frank, you don't understand. Frank, Frank, I don't even know how to sing. I'll do housekeeping. And he just kept laughing. He just kept laughing. And I'm like, okay. He said, It's $500 a week. You can't refuse. It's insurance and dental. And I'm looking at him like, that's not a movie contract. I love it, babe. But I don't know about that, right? So I'm like, okay, Frank. All right, Frank, see you later. You know what? You know what I mean? I just walked in out of glibly sky goes, no, no, wait. Terry Bozio is going to take you to the studio tomorrow morning. You sleep at Terry's tonight. I go, I sleep at Terry's tonight. Okay. All right. Talk to you later. Gotta go.

[B]

So we even found your future husband.

[A]

Right? Exactly. And right then and there, Terry and I became an item.

[B]

Did you know right away about Terri?

[A]

I know. I was going along with the program.

[B]

No, I get that. But I'm saying sometimes. Sometimes women have a way of knowing something about a man before the man figures it out.

[A]

I know. No, no, I knew that. I really appreciated him, and I knew that he was so talented. He was. I. I could. I could. He just. And that. And he was a precious human being. I wasn't really planning. I wasn't planning to get married. I wasn't planning on any of those things. I wasn't planning on being in a rock band. Really?

[B]

That's what's so beautiful about the story. You met Terry in 1976.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you were married in 79?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Parents approve?

[A]

They loved him. But my. My parents were separated when I was very small. I had very estranged family.

[B]

Right.

[A]

My mother was very odd, and my father, they. They were separated. And my father dedicated his life to me and took care of me. And she went on with her life to do whatever it was that she thought that she had to do.

[B]

So you didn't really grow up with your mother?

[A]

No.

[B]

From what age on?

[A]

Nine.

[B]

Mine was four.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where did your mother go?

[B]

Insane asylum.

[A]

Oh, okay. So you. You understand the heavy tone that lays on your heart in your life?

[B]

Very much so.

[A]

So, okay, so, well, then. Okay. Well, you can relate to this. Not that I'm trying to top your story. No, no. But my mother. I used to think that my grandmother was my mother. And my mother. My grandmother died at 62. But my mother was always so wild and crazy. And she would make amends for my mother the whole time. And I didn't know till I found my mother's death certificate that my mother was born in a prison. Because My grandmother was 15 when she delivered my mother. And they took her from Canada to Lawrence, Massachusetts, and they put her in a prison. So she would deliver the baby and then they took the baby away from her and put my mother in a nunnery. And my mother grew up with nuns till she escaped. She escaped when she was 16 and went haywire. Ran into my father on the corner in the middle of a snowstorm in Boston. He was 20 or so for 18 years older than her. He picked her up off the curb and saved her little ass and took her home and took care of her and.

[B]

Are your parents still with us?

[A]

No. My father was born in 1910. He'd be 114 today. Responsible. Yeah. And my mother passed away at 85. She just kind of just coughed and stated some incredible poems while she was gonna die. And she was more like a butterfly than a mother. She was always. I remember her just dancing and singing and thinking that she was the movie star.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she was really beautiful and blonde and blue ice, blue eyes. I write a song about her on my new record. It's called Ice Blue Eyes and how cold she is. And how fame isn't so much just fame, but fame is a word that makes you burn Inside for something you long for, that you think you want, that you don't have.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

You'll never really know till you get it. And then you find out it isn't anything.

[B]

I went through the same thing.

[A]

Right. And that's how I saw her.

[B]

I see not me.

[A]

That's how I saw her.

[B]

Did she, when you were successful, did she?

[A]

Yeah, she came back.

[B]

But I'm saying, was she jealous? Was she supportive?

[A]

Was she, she couldn't tell. You know, I, she's such a mystery to me. I want to be honest with you, you know, because I hear what you just told me and I have sympathy for that. But I know where your mind, I know you're trying to keep it all straight and you're gonna have one eye open and keep watching behind, over your shoulder and behind your back. I know that attitude. I know that feeling and I know that despair almost when there's nobody there but yourself, you know, and that's it. And you always end up with yourself. But I feel that from you and I feel that that's why to me you reap kindness and like caring and you know, you wanna things.

[B]

I do want to fix things. So you're in love and you're married. What, what age were you married at?

[A]

Whoa, I'm thinking 27.

[B]

Okay. Somewhere in there. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So did you feel like cuz because of your family circumstance, did you feel like you'd found sort of the, the right situation for you or is it very much as we can get into life? You're on this journey and that's okay.

[A]

Never got, never got that love. Don't know. I, I, no, I, I, I say it a lot because I know the most important thing, or two important things is saying to someone to be care for them is to say I love you and that I'm proud of you. And so I do that because I'm encourageable, because I know how hard it is to find courage, have to go so deep down into the dirty rinds of your past to be courageable. And so I try to give people a little piece of something that maybe they don't have to even look any further for. And they can kind of go, oh, she loves me, she doesn't even know me. But I said it. And when you say it, you kind of can't take it back.

[B]

I'm not trying to be gossipy, but I'm just trying to understand the dynamic because here in this relationship with this savant drummer, and I know Terry a little bit, he's definitely his own person. You know what I mean?

[A]

Terry's a genius. Terry's a genius as they come. Terry is an incredibly calculated genius. And he is one of the top 10 greatest drummers in the world.

[B]

Wouldn't argue with that.

[A]

He learned how to play the drum on hitting a dime and he does not click his drumsticks. He is beyond.

[B]

Oh, no, he's a bakery.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I know a lot of geniuses and I kind of reflect. Most of my relationships have been with genius type people and I understand their.

[B]

But I want to talk about your. I want to talk about your genius. I know there's the sort of thing about where Frank encourages you in the band and stuff, but what was the sort of the organic part of this? Like you're married to this great musician. At what point does it start to become thing like we should have a band? Was it something you joked about or.

[A]

It was no joke.

[B]

No, because my wife is on me to start a band.

[A]

Okay, well, that's great.

[B]

Yeah, it's fine. And I'm happy to do a band. But I'm saying couples have a way of talking about things that sometimes they happen, sometimes they don't.

[A]

Yeah, no, it wasn't like that at all, actually. It wasn't like that. It was more between Warren and I. Cucurulo.

[B]

Okay. And Warren was in the Zappa world.

[A]

Warren was hired by Frank right now. So Warren is just working with Frank. And so Terry goes on tour with uk.

[B]

Right. Which was that Phil who wasn't he.

[A]

That's John Wetton. John Wetton, Andy Jobson.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, Right.

[A]

The three of them, they go to Europe and they do this tour.

[B]

Did you like that music? It was so super fun.

[A]

Yeah, no, super hi fi. Yeah, I loved it. You know, I do love like that music. I, I prefer music with no vocals, personally.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes, yes. In the strange sense of the way. It really disturbs me when I have to hear music to movies. I get distracted and I'm listening. I'm not. I, I, I'm listening to the beat.

[B]

I see.

[A]

I yeah, I get you can't, can't get it can't lose it. Can't I get a song 247 in my head? It's how you know I'm on a major tape loop. Tape. Funny, funny thing.

[B]

I like to hear that tape loop.

[A]

Well, the funny thing is, I'll tell you this really quick, but I meet Prince in this disco Tramps. Okay. I see him over there and I just walk in the front door. With my friends, just casual, you know, going to hang out, see Michael. Oh, my God, it's Prince over there. So I walked directly over to him, poke him on the nose. You see his back like this. Two big bodyguards go, what?

[B]

He had the biggest bodyguards I've ever seen.

[A]

Right? Well, ten times there was.

[B]

There was the one guy that was this wide.

[A]

Yeah, bigger than him for sure. And I'm like, oh. I said, I'm sorry. I just wanted to ask you to dance. You're the best dancer in the place. He turned around and the body guy goes. And we walked out and they started playing. Red Corvette. Stop. What was playing? Turned on red Corvette. He starts dancing with me. Stop dancing.

[B]

That's the first time you met him?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. We sit down and he goes, hey, do you have a car? I go, they had a car up front. He goes, really? What kind of a car is it? I go, it's a Corvette. What color? I go, it's red. He goes, will you take me for a ride? I go, right now? I just got here. He goes, yeah, let's go. I had to go. I had to leave. Yeah. I go, okay, let's go. So we go outside and I pull up. He pulls up the limousine. I pull up the red Corvette. He gets. He comes, he comes and jumps in the red Corvette. He goes, can you drive me really fast? I'm looking at this guy going, holy, dude.

[B]

You know he's smaller than you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we're the same exact size.

[B]

He was smaller than you, though. Take off the high heels.

[A]

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I have to say he kept his shoes on for all activities. I will not deny it. I will not deny it. And he says, you gotta come over. I gotta play you something. I gotta play you some music. I go, really?

[B]

What town is this in?

[A]

We're in Beverly Hills, right here in California. I go, okay. He goes, but drive me really fast. You're talking to the wrong person. You're talking to the wrong person. It's five speed Corvette, right? So I'm at Wilshire in Santa Monica. I'm at 120. By the time I get to Westwood, okay, he's screaming, stop, stop. I scared this part of him. I couldn't believe it. So I pull over. You know, when you're driving, you think you're in control, you know what I mean? So I pull over, I slow down. I go slow. He goes, okay, go slow now. Okay. Don't do any more stop signs. Go the regular speed. I go, okay, okay. It's okay. It's okay. Which way to your house? Get to his house. We go upstairs. We go in these. He's having a full French party. It's 100 people in there. I'm going, what is going on here? You're at the club and this is a party going on over here. He goes, yeah, yeah. I couldn't stand it anymore. I'm like, okay, all right, whatever. And so it was just ironic that we met. Yeah. He goes, please come upstairs. So I go upstairs, go into this room. It's got this big, huge white house. White everything. White carpet, white everything.

[B]

I heard he had, like, white everything.

[A]

White tent in the bedroom, white and everything. White piano. I'm like, okay, what are we doing here? I'm thinking, oh, do I have enough blow to deal with this time over here? I had no. I didn't plan on coming over Prince's house. I was supposed to go back into my fucking. Left my friends flat and dry. Just screwed Razel. I go, I got a lady's room. I go in the bathroom and I'm like, snorting all the coke I have left. And I'm going, oh, my God, what am I doing here? I walk back out and he goes, listen, sit down right there. I go, okay. It was one single little bed all in white. I sat on the edge of the bed. I had no idea what he was going to do. He said, eight hours. I need you for eight hours. You, you, me and you. Okay, you got me? I was like, say no to Prince. I don't think so. He said, okay, okay, stay right there. He went over. He had this music system with tapes like this. Like what? From the studio. I seen them. He. He turns this crank and it stops in its windows. My song. It's my song.

[B]

And I go, he's got your song on the tape. Thing.

[A]

Tapes. I was like. I started laughing. I go, oh, that's Dale. He goes, yeah, you got eight hours. I go, yeah, I got eight hours. He made me listen to my music for eight hours. Eight hours, okay. He danced around the piano. He went downstairs and brought me back up lasagna. He came back with wine. I was like, this isn't really happening. I was halfway passing out, right? Literally, the sun came up and kept coming up. And I was like, okay, listen, I gotta go home now, okay? I gotta go home. I gotta go home.

[B]

My dad used to say, you know, he would always add. So you got daled out?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right? You got daled out.

[A]

Blew my mind. Anyway, I pushed him down on the Bed and had a sexual encounter with him and took him over the edge, I think, somewhere he never went before. And he got on the floor and begged me to marry him and go to Las Vegas right then and there. And I said, no, I'm not gonna do that to you. I'm my own identity and so are you, and I'll help you everywhere you go. And I'll be your friend for the rest of your life. And he said, right then and there.

[B]

That's a very Pisces thing of you to do.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Of course. I would never. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I was trying to ease his pain, is what I was doing. And I believe I did. I took him out of that. Being afraid. He was afraid. He was so afraid. I believe he was a voyeur, really. Of all his love affairs, had the most beautiful women. Apollonia, I know personally beautiful. You can't buy her beauty and her kindness and her care and her sensation. It just. He was somewhere else.

[B]

Stop right there, because we have to go back to you. Here I am and Terry Bozio.

[A]

Terry, listen, I love Terry because I just love. It's. I'm enamored, I think.

[B]

Okay, but the band. Well, how do we get to the band?

[A]

Frank said one day we were in the kitchen having peanut butter and jelly sandwiches at the Zappa at Frank's house. We went there every night of the week, five nights of the week.

[B]

Let me ask you. This was being part of Zappa's world. It was like a family, right?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So you're part of the family.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And you're just in his world.

[A]

Absolutely. I didn't hear. Listen to other music. That's why Shane asks me, my son, don't you know this? Don't you know that? Did you ever see Blah, Blah, Blah? Did you ever go. And I go, no. Like, I'd never met these people or go out to meet them or see them or hear the music. We were Frank Zappa. Because Terry was working for Frank at the time. Warren was working for Frank at the time. I wasn't working for Frank. I was there. Frank. I made Frank laugh hysterically, as I've said. And that's why he kept me on the payroll, because it was. I'm not replaceable. And I gave him the news of everything that was happening all over the world.

[B]

Yeah. So you were like his.

[A]

Yeah, I was the one that came in and told him, who died today? What happened? England today. I knew everything was going on. I'm a sponge. When it comes to news and everything that's going on, like, firsthand news. Cnn. And he was a big fan of cnn. That's what he had on in the studio at the time. You know, we didn't have the channel, you know. Right. So he really respected that of me because I was up on what was the happening of the time.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Not music.

[B]

Okay, but how do we get to the band?

[A]

Frank said this afternoon while we were eating the peanut butter and jelly. Listen, I got it. You three put a band together, I'll pay for it. You call it the Cute Persons.

[B]

You call it the what?

[A]

The Cute Persons.

[B]

The Cute Persons.

[A]

I think, what was the day, the moment of shock. I could feel it for myself because I wasn't a musician. I was so long for the ride. And here I am getting my moments. Frank putting me in a rock band. Are you kidding me? They'll listen to me now, won't they? Sure they will.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. They'll pay attention to me now, finally. Cause I'm telling you, you gotta write a song called Destination Unknown. Cause I fell out a window and I know a few things. And they finally decided to listen to me. And we went. We. And Frank said, okay, take my studio. I'm going to New York. Take this address right now. It's the address of Ken Scott, who produced. He lives down the street.

[B]

Pink Floyd and the Beatles. And Bowie, Right?

[A]

That Ken Scott, he just finished doing let's Dance with Bowie, okay. That week. He said, here, go to this address right now. Finish his sandwich. He finished his. I go, right. Right now? He said, yeah. He said, if you have to climb over the fence, he'll be at the pool getting a tan. Like, you know. Frank was always sarcastically, like, incredibly funny beyond anybody else. So make a long story short, I go, terry Warren, he said, look, I'm leaving day after tomorrow. Take my studio. Go get him. I said, let's go. Terry said, now? I said, yeah, let's go right now. We drove right over there, went outside, got in the B210 Datsun and drove right down the street to Ken's house. Pulled up, I said, just wait right here. I get to the golden fence. I see him. He's sitting at the pool. There's a fence. It's like 2ft tall. I can take the boom box. And I climb. I have Warren hear me the boulevard. I climb over the fence, walk up, and he's sitting down there with the goggles on, and he can see me. I go, excuse me, Ken Scott. It's like, what the what are you doing in here? My God.

[B]

Does he know you at all? No.

[A]

Oh, girl, this is dressed like a Zulu with a freaking boom box. I go, I gotta play this, I gotta play this. He goes, play me what? I go, listen, Frank Zappa just sent me over here. Don't get mad, but Frank Zappa sent me over here. He told me to climb over the fence because you'd be getting a pool platina at the pool. So you gotta hear this record. It's a hot new record. And the day after tomorrow you can come over to Frank's brand new studio. He's got a curse while and everything, everything for free. Please come over and make this record demo with us. Please, I was begging you. He looked at me, he looked at me. He took his towel down, he was like, and then this gets me. He stood up, he goes, he put his towel on. He has skippies on, you know, he put his towel on. He goes, let's get out of the sun. I would walk over and he goes, hit play. He just like, it was the sun. It was. I like boys words. Hello, I love you and walking in la.

[B]

Okay,

[A]

he just got through the first song and stopped. He said, who is that? I said, terry Bozio. Brand new number one. Next new drummer of the world, Porn Cucarulo. Frank's giving us everything for free. Can I do it? He said, yep, I'll do it. Well, he said, but do me a favor, go out the front door. He took me to the front door, open it, see at the studio, shut the door, drove back to Frank's got in the car going, he's doing it, he's doing it. We're in, we're in, we're in. And Terry's going, no, really? I knew you'd do it. I knew it. He was squeezing my shoulders. Warren was always my cheerleader, you know. We were getting bad trouble together, Warren and I. Yeah, Warren and I ruined the band. Warren and Terry Quinn.

[B]

Okay, well, we're not to that point yet. Beautiful first record, historical. Really great.

[A]

Yeah, historic.

[B]

Really great.

[A]

I can't say anything about it, but that's made the world change for me. And Frank said, yep. As soon as he came home from New York and he heard the songs we made, he said, okay, finish the record with Ken, you'll have a record deal. Now go to work. Have a nice day. Wow, he wasn't kidding. I've worked my ass off since then.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

It's a never ending story.

[B]

So how do you go from I'm Not a singer. I want to be a movie star.

[A]

Sadly, no.

[B]

But.

[A]

No, sadly, no. Really. Okay. No, really. I still watch movies now and think,

[B]

but you turned out to be a very important singer in my estimation.

[A]

I appreciate that. That's really nice. But when you tell that to somebody who wants blue eyes and their eyes are brown,

[B]

you still feel that

[A]

you can't take a feeling away out of your person.

[B]

No, I get that.

[A]

You know, we can subdue them, like our family and our mothers. We can subdue them. We're not leaving that.

[B]

When you look back on that period, because obviously it was a great period for you musically. How do you feel about it? Okay, I'm saying it in lieu of what you're saying. I'm not asking you to reminisce.

[A]

I didn't know that then.

[B]

How do you feel about it now?

[A]

I didn't. Yeah. I didn't know I was making a song that would last for 40 years.

[B]

Songs.

[A]

Songs. Yeah. I had no idea. I had no idea. I was just going along with the program thinking the next stage was making a movie.

[B]

Yeah, but did you think you were a strong songwriter?

[A]

No. I think I'm a poet. Okay. I think I'm a poet.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I do. I always thought that. That. I always thought that I. I've been writing, like, these. These intellectual poems. Not, you know.

[B]

I get it. I know your lyrics enough to know what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah. That's what I think. That's what I like about myself. It gives. Gives me.

[B]

But how do you feel about yourself as a singer?

[A]

I know. I feel so. I don't know what to say there. Why would you ask me that?

[B]

Because I think you're a great singer.

[A]

Well, that's very nice of you. That's very nice of you. I can sing what I've been taught to sing.

[B]

But you were writing those melodies.

[A]

Yes, they're very nice melodies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because I think that what I appreciate about you and you don't know this. I'm telling you now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

We just met.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But like a year ago, I found myself listening to you. You again. A lot.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I was in the middle of making a new Pumpkins record.

[A]

The melodies, maybe?

[B]

Yes. Something about the melodies and something about the way you sang sort of drew me back in. I mean, I knew the songs, but I found myself kind of going back for something that I could only get from you. Sorry to let me finish, but that's very nice.

[A]

That's very nice of you. I can relate to what you just said, yeah, I'm there.

[B]

Right. Well, you're. You. But I'm saying as someone who. So you know my relationship to you as an artist is in pieces. Right. There's me watching you on television in whatever year it was. You know what I mean?

[A]

Year.

[B]

82 or 83. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you were so ahead of your time in terms of how you presented yourself. You know, there's that. I remember in 82, I'm 14, 15 years old.

[A]

Of course. Of course it was the shock factor.

[B]

No, no, no, There was something about it.

[A]

That's what we did.

[B]

Yes. But I. I think it's more valuable than that.

[A]

Well, you're kind.

[B]

I can be.

[A]

Yeah, you're kind. Yeah, I know that about you. So you're very soft spoken. You're. You just. You smooth everything out so politely. You would never let.

[B]

But here's my point, because I. Because I, again, I. I found myself paying a lot of attention to you again, starting about a year ago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And even when they asked me who I wanted to be a guest on the show, you were like, at the top of the list.

[A]

Well, thank you. I'm flattered.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

I am.

[B]

Because you're great.

[A]

I'm extremely flattered. So, not because I'm great. I'm flattered because you like me.

[B]

We'll work on that. But here's my point.

[A]

You do like me, don't you?

[B]

I think you're fantastic.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

I think you're fantastic. You're everything I hoped you would be. But we're still in this. Let's get through this part. So one thing that really struck me, and I remember seeing it because, again, I'm 14, 50 years old now. I think I told you my father was a musician. So when you grow up in a musical world, you look at music differently than people who aren't in a musical world. My father was super critical of musicians. Like when I was a kid and we'd watch tv, my father would be like, he sucks. He's great. He's terrible. Right. So like I said, my father likes Zappa. So Tim Zappa was good, everybody else was bad or whatever. So I have these memories of watching you and when we first met today, you know you're five feet ish, Right.

[A]

One and three, quarter inch.

[B]

God bless. Say five, two. For the sake of posterity.

[A]

I do on my license I lie very good.

[B]

Always punk rock. But my point of saying this is I had this memory of you from back then, but now watching the clips, it's like having a memory over here and then seeing it with modern eyes here. And these pieces came together. And the thing I'm after here is, and I think where you're so important in a way that people don't understand your importance was not only did you present a really radical image of feminine femininity and freedom at a time where that really wasn't necessarily the case. Now half the world looks like you. I mean, you know that. I mean, you must have noticed.

[A]

I recognize a little bit here and there.

[B]

God bless. Including some big pop stars, you know, who cribbed from you. Like, I'll take that. And I'll take that.

[A]

Well, everybody has a stylist, babe.

[B]

It's all good. Like, there's only one og. And so you're an OG in this one particular way. But the other thing is, and this is what I'm saying about this memory I have as a young person in a musical family watching you and not totally understanding what I was seeing. And now being 57, and now I understand what I was seeing then, and now I can articulate it. I'm lucky enough to articulate it to you. And that was when you guys played. And I saw you many times on television. When I was a kid, I never went to shows. Everything was through the television. And you guys were on TV a lot for this one particular period of time?

[A]

Absolutely, yes.

[B]

When you would stand there with your band, you weren't the star, and they were your band. You weren't the cute chicky with the boy band. You were in the band. And maybe that came from being in Frank's world. You were an equal. You, Warren and Terry.

[A]

Yeah, I.

[B]

Does that make sense to you?

[A]

Absolutely. A piece of the pie.

[B]

But that's so valuable, you know what I'm saying? Because even nine, 10 years later, when we had a woman in our band, people would ask her, what's it like to be a woman in a band? There was this kind of idea of like, why would a woman want to be in a rock band? And yet here you are in 1982, not only you in a rock band, Right? One of the greatest drummers in the world. You guys totally kick ass. I would refer anybody to. To see your performance from the U.S. festival. You guys are so good live, it's shocking.

[A]

That was live, all right.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. You guys are so good live, it's shocking how good you are. You know what I'm saying? Your voice, which on record can kind of sound strange because you're you have such a unique vocal style. You listen to you live like you're, you're, you're that singer. It's not like a studio thing like you are that singer. Like you completely hold your own in this very muscular, physical band. So I'm forever impressed by that part of your talent.

[A]

I have an installed courage from a man's point of view, in a man's world. I was raised by an incredible man, my father that impressed me to be this way. It has all to do with my choices of what I want to do and when I'm going to do it. If I'm going to do it, I'm only going to do it. Yeah, that's right.

[B]

So when you look back at you on stage at that time I was

[A]

all me doing all me at the moment with what I had to do with the pieces I could put together. Taking apart posters on the wall, having no money to go to the shopping center, having to go to the plastic store and buying a sheet of plastic for A$50 and some tubing, about 56 cents to take home and tie up the poster around me for all of my five dollar budget. Yeah, okay. I was working with my crafts. Yeah, I was not looking to impress

[B]

anybody, but that's what's so beautiful about it.

[A]

But that's what happened and that's what happens in life when you're doing your thing, when you're just doing you, you become so impressive if you do it genuinely. And Frank said to me one day, listen over another some sandwich in the kitchen that was like smashed together. And he said one day those fellows, he pointed to them, they were a stone cold away. Terry and Warren will become extremely jealous of you. You will rise above and you're going to absorb what the man teaches you and you will have to replace them. Don't you ever forget that this is all about you. It's always going to be all about you. Wow. He said, and remember, don't sing anything you can't sing in front of me. We just went in the studio that day. I went, what? Okay, Frank, he said, remember, Frank is dead and buried. I go to his grave and I say, frank, I replaced them. I've replaced those replacements and I'm replacing the replacements and I'm still singing. Can break me to tears. Because when someone tells you something that you believe, You never forget it.

[B]

Yeah. What part of that did you believe?

[A]

Every word.

[B]

I see.

[A]

And I did that. I've done that. I've gone on and had to leave Terry Bozio, divorce Them. Replace them. Replace the greatest musicians that I've ever played with in my life. Step over them and keep stepping. Why? Because I'm Dale and I do what I do, and that's what I do. If it makes something or somehow an impression on you, well, lucky you. I'm just living my life.

[B]

A ruthless Pisces.

[A]

It seems that way. But then, you know, we melt like an ice cube.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's what I mean. You're old.

[A]

I think that's the outside. Like fake Pisces, you know, we're all so big, bold and tough and. Bye bye, you know. Bye, bye, bye. I love Britney Spears, but with such cream puffs of the whole thing. But it's astounding the courage that you can find.

[B]

Well, that's what I think. That's when I think of you. Obviously, I'm talking to you, but don't you find.

[A]

Is it. What is that like? Because sometimes you can't stop up to smell the flowers.

[B]

I think I'll give you an honest answer to an honest question. I think that certain people, Pisces, too, seem to have this more so than most. You have an intuitive sense of a destination, no pun intended, that nobody else can understand. They think you're completely insane. You're going the wrong way. That can't possibly work. Don't do it. Don't step over that body. And you're guided by something that is a story that you can't even explain. And here we are. Does that sound accurate?

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It gives me more time to be a little more eccentric, I suppose.

[B]

Yeah. I told you before we started filming that I love your song. Surrender your heart to me. I just think this is such a beautiful song. Maybe it's. I mean, I know your catalog pretty well. It might be your almost sort of. It feels very personal. Does that sound accurate?

[A]

Terry wrote that song about Dale.

[B]

Oh, I thought it was the other way around. So what part of you wouldn't surrender your heart to Terry ever? Never, never, never surrendered.

[A]

I never surrender.

[B]

Why do you think that was?

[A]

I told you, love is a big question here.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Love is a big question. This is all about.

[B]

Did you ever surrender your heart to anybody other than your children?

[A]

No, because. Can't do it because don't know how.

[B]

Okay, that's fair.

[A]

Mm. Can't go that deep I'm too rejected and denied and too behind the eight ball I'm the ugly duckling at school I'm the one no one talks to I'm the one that everybody.

[B]

You still carry that.

[A]

I'm the one that everybody said, oh, she's.

[B]

So when I tell you how great you are, do you take that in?

[A]

I take that. Scary. I take it like, whoa. It's a shock to me because I renown you, so. And it's like, really? How is that possible?

[B]

Because you're amazing.

[A]

Well, that seems.

[B]

There's only.

[A]

That seems like impossible.

[B]

My favorite artists. There's only one. There's only one you ever.

[A]

That's scary. Yeah. That's what I mean.

[B]

But that's the force of your personality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And your talent.

[A]

I mean. Thank you. I love you, you know? I love you. You would you want to make my movie?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And write the music?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

You could write the music.

[B]

Your movie would be amazing. What a movie that would be.

[A]

But the thing is, you see, there's so many things about that little girl Dale, that I think that that's what I made that book for, is because having my sons of the ripe age of this atomic world of society, that is such a whole nother rainbow for me at this level of my lifestyle. You know, when you get to a different time of age, you sense things differently. Of course, as you said, when you look back of being 14, 15, of course you're going to divulge it rather differently now of all the experiences that you had. But me personally speaking, I would like everyone to have the information here. So they have it from the horse's mouth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because people assume things and they think things that they don't really know the truth.

[B]

Well, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, besides the sort of selfish desire to meet you, was that I.

[A]

Well, I'm honored.

[B]

Thank you. Was. I feel like your story's not really been told. And even if you go looking for your story, it's not really accurate. And I'm not talking about this happened, this happened, this happened, but how important you are.

[A]

Well, you're very kind. See?

[B]

Yeah, but I'm not being kind now.

[A]

Okay. Well, yeah, you are. I mean, you're still the same person.

[B]

If you were a total sociopath, you're

[A]

the same person I met an hour ago.

[B]

Okay. God bless. But if you were a total sociopathic, you know, selfish artist like most artists are, I would still think you were great. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Well, that's.

[B]

But part of the reason I think you're great is because of who you are. So, like, when I see you in 1982, standing on some cold TV set somewhere, wearing what you wore. And you had this way. You still have this way of singing, like, with your head kind of cocked up like this.

[A]

I do, yeah. Okay.

[B]

But it's to me, you know, body language is interesting. Right. And your body language on stage was always one of courage. It wasn't defiance. It wasn't you. It wasn't, look at me, I'm so great. It was, I'm up here. I got my band and I got my song.

[A]

I was very proud of them. I was very proud of those musicians.

[B]

Okay. But flip the script. You being on stage with those musicians says something about their faith in you.

[A]

But that's how I could do it. I get that because I gave them my faith first.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

First, I gave them the praise and the prowess of who they were.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I gave them Frank.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I gave them more than love. I gave them a life. When you care about the people that are closest to you, you give them your soul.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not a car. Okay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So what I could do for them, I did of my passion.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I knew by being with them, they would make me better.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They will teach me.

[B]

So who's done that for you, though, besides your father?

[A]

My father. Frank Zappa, Terry Bozio and Prince.

[B]

Okay. I was listening to the. I don't know, it's not fair to call it the Prince record, but the. The Paisley park era.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you feel about that now, looking at that music?

[A]

I would have liked to brought Prince in.

[B]

So he wasn't.

[A]

He wouldn't. Yeah, he wouldn't. He said, I'm not coming there. I'm not singing anything. Take my engineer, coke, all my guitars, all my stuff. It was all set up. He said, go over there.

[B]

Why do you think he didn't help?

[A]

He wouldn't. I don't know. He wouldn't. He just said no, Stone Cold. He didn't want to be influenced Me. He didn't want to influence me. And I think he. Excuse me. I think he wanted to see if I really could do it. I think he was like.

[B]

But you think that's maybe in a way where it didn't work. And I don't mean it's terrible. I mean, it just doesn't work.

[A]

No, the reason him and I. No, he fired me, okay? He quit the record. He stopped the presses. He stopped everything. He wouldn't. I had a. I was number two on Billboard or four in European.

[B]

You had like a dance hit or something.

[A]

Yeah, dance hit. And I was supposed to go to Europe. Supposed to Leave the next day. And instead, my father had a heart attack. And he was in Boston, right? So I took a red eye and I left and I went to Boston. I called him from the hospital and he said, what are you doing? I go, well, my father had a heart attack. I had to come and see him in Boston. He goes, no, no, you're leaving tomorrow for this European. So he flipped out. He started screaming at me, and I'm like a payphone. And he. I said, I can't go. I've got to be here with my father. He's going to die. And I had to sign the paper for him because I was only his next of kin. Blah, blah, blah, blah. He said, you're fired. It's over. How much money do you want? I said, I. He said, name me a number. I said, 50,000. He said, Tomorrow. And he hung up.

[B]

Do you own that record?

[A]

Not really.

[B]

Who owns that record?

[A]

Paisley Park.

[B]

Because, you know, they got that weird title on Spotify, like the original Lady Gaga or some weird bull title.

[A]

Everybody, you know, does that. That's so rude.

[B]

No, it's very rude.

[A]

I mean, you know, I'm not the original anybody, because first of all, I came before Lady Gaga, so I don't know how I could be the original lady anybody, you know, number one. Okay? So let's get real here, you know, no defiance of anything for anybody. I respect everyone that has the courage to do anything in the music business at any given time of day, because it's a real hustle. It's not for the faint of heart. This is a real rock and roll gig of life. If you commit yourself to this, you may become famous, you may not become famous, but that's the choice.

[B]

You definitely will go crazy.

[A]

You have to take the choice to commit or not.

[B]

Okay, Two things to finish. One is from Spring Session M. That's the name of the record, right? 82.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There feels like to me, and I'm saying this as a. Someone who admires you, there seems to be this dissipation of energy. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's. It's. It's. It's a. It's a life means. Means there's a ton of life force in the first record. Second record, A Little Less Life Force.

[A]

Third record, A Little Less Breakdown of the Rock Band.

[B]

Okay, understood. By the time we get to the Prince era record, Little Less Life Force. But sitting here, there's no shortage of life force. Was it that you're.

[A]

You're in this, you Only limited to what your availabilities are at the given moment.

[B]

Okay, but I'm saying, I'm asking about your part in it. Are you looking around going, I'm in the wrong place, or, this is. This is how it goes. And I'm on this boat and I can't get off. Like, explain to me that. Because that's. Let me finish. My Lush Bill.

[A]

I don't know where you're coming from with the, you know, the musicianship and the. Because, you know, times changed.

[B]

The first record has this tremendous life force to it. And the music and these great songs, you know, are testament to that force, whether it was your relationship to the boys or whatever, you know, Frank's support. But over time, it seems to get a little bit lost. It's not that it's terrible or not. I mean, there's beautiful music being made. But my sense is something's happening. There's a decline or something being pulled back. Did you feel you were being pulled in different directions? Did you feel like you lost control of something? I'm trying to understand what I hear, because I'm enough of a fan of you to know that. That if you're all in, that vitality is within the grooves of the music. Am I accurate in my assessment?

[A]

Absolutely, yes. You know, I think a lot of things with rock bands, maybe not the Rolling Stones, but other bands, go through changes, emotions. You grow. You look at things differently, you hear things differently, almost.

[B]

You can't unsee what you've seen. Right.

[A]

Right. When you're a musician, the music is changing behind you while you're sleeping. There's new musicians, there's new songs on the radio.

[B]

There's people ripping you off right behind you.

[A]

They're coming up while you're sleeping. You gotta be thinking, double time. Then you gotta go talk to the musicians that are telling you, no, no, no, this doesn't go this way. Then you've got a producer that says, squash squish box.

[B]

Okay, but I'm asking.

[A]

That's how they got that way.

[B]

Okay, but I'm asking because you. Because in my sense, you're all heart.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Okay. So did you get your heart broken along the way?

[A]

Got my. Got everything broken, yeah. Everything started going down the drain. No one would listen to me anymore. And I couldn't get my word edgewise. When I came with the songs that I wanted to sing, they said, no, we're not singing those songs, and, no, we're getting electric drums and we're not doing it that way. And we're getting.

[B]

So let me tell you one other thing that you don't know what this is between us, but. So when I started focusing on you a year ago, I almost picked up the phone because I wanted to write songs with you because I think you're such a great songwriter.

[A]

Thank you. Well, we'll write them now.

[B]

Let's do that now. But my point is, it's so cool sitting, talking to you because the thing that I identify so strongly in your music is still in front of me. It hasn't gone anywhere. But I also understand that access to that part of you has everything to do with your heart.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So at least I got that part right.

[A]

You're a tuning fork.

[B]

Thank you. All right, now I gotta tell you my great Terry Bozio story for 10.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Do you know this story at all? Have you ever heard this story?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

So when Jimmy Chamberlain, the drummer from the Pumpkins, was fired by the band in 1996, well, we needed a new drummer and we had a 90 date arena tour booked, tickets sold. We had to push the dates back. But we have to pick a drummer. Like we. It's like, we gotta pick a drummer now. So our manager at the time was Cliff Bernstein, who managed Metallica. And he calls and he says, what do you think about Terry Bozio? And I'm like, holy fuck, Terry Bozio. Like, first of all, why would Terry Bozzi want to be in my band? Let's start there. But I started thinking, well, because our Jimmy Chamberlain, the Pumpkins drummer, he's still the Pumpkin drummer now. Great drummer and also a friend of Terry's at this point. So they know each other and they're both recognized as some of the greatest drummers of all time. So it all kind of is a cool story, but I'm in a situation where I need a great drummer. And the manager calls, hey, what do you think about Terry Bozzi?

[A]

I said, okay, 96.

[B]

96. So Terry comes. We had a rehearsal space at the time we call Pumpkin Land. So Terry comes in and he's late, which is fine. I think he got off a flight or something. But he's late and you know, hey, it's fine. So everybody else would come in. I don't. We audition 10 drummers in that period. They would come in, they'd set up their kit, you know what I mean? And you know, you wait, wait 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and then you, you play. Terry shows up, say hello, he's got a tech with him. An hour goes by and we're like sitting there like this, and I'm like, what's going on? So somebody works for me comes in, I go, is he ready? And again. Well, he's still setting up his drums.

[A]

Oh, right, right.

[B]

So I go out there, right, To. Just to chat and say hi and. And. And he's literally. And I know you know, this. So this is like a.

[A]

This is.

[B]

This is a drum.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm watching him and he's going like this,

[A]

Right?

[B]

And there's 14 drums, right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Now.

[A]

Has to be in perfect tune.

[B]

I don't know, Terry.

[A]

You know, every drum is tuned to a note.

[B]

I understand. So I'm not going to tell him,

[A]

hey, hurry up, buddy.

[B]

Hurry it up. You know what I mean?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Clock's running. So we wait another hour. Okay, he's finally ready. Two hours we waited. Okay, he's finally ready.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, we had asked each drummer to learn three of our songs. And first song on our second record is a song called Cherub Rock. It's complicated. And, you know, so Terry's over there and. And, you know, so I say to him, can we. Can we play Cherubrak? And he goes, I didn't really have time to learn the songs, so if you guys could just play. By the way, this is a really complicated song, right? If you guys could just play. I'll kind of play along. Play along, exactly. So my bandmates look at me, like, that's a lot.

[A]

That's hard to. Yeah, that's like.

[B]

By the way, I was the one who said, let's try out Terry Bozie.

[A]

Okay? Right.

[B]

So now I'm getting the stink guy from my bandmates.

[A]

I know, right? Because they don't give us lots of hands.

[B]

Because my bandmates don't give a who Terry Bozio is. And the fact that he played with Frank Zappa or in missing persons, they don't give two shits, Right, Right. Okay. So I gotta do a little Terry imitation.

[A]

So Terry.

[B]

So. Oh, it gets better.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And eventually involves you.

[A]

Okay. Oh, no.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So. So we start the song and we're playing and nothing's happening. He's just, like, listening. And, you know, he does that kind of.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And all of a sudden he goes. And we're still playing, like, the fastest drumming you ever heard in your life.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, what the is happening?

[A]

What's he doing? Yeah.

[B]

And he goes. And all of a sudden he goes. He picks up on the groove and he starts that groove that he's got. And it is the greatest Rock groove I've ever heard in my life. The groove is so ridiculous. He sounds like a mixed record playing live in a room and the band sounds unbelievable. So I go from, oh my God, it's a disaster. How long does this take? To my God, oh my God, this guy is. This is insane.

[A]

I've heard that.

[B]

I've never heard my band sound like this.

[A]

Yeah, he does that.

[B]

So we do that for three songs, but it's kind of awkward. It's Terry, he hasn't learned. So we get through it and it's kind of that thing like this is pretty tempting, but how do I tell him to stop the 80s Zappa fills? You know, am I going to tell Terry Bozio, don't play that fill? Am I going to get into that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So now we go into the room to chat. We had a, like a little kind of eating area. I recently recorded your guys song Destination Unknown.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Have you ever heard our version of it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Awesome. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So I say to Terry, do you mind if I play it for you? And he goes, okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. And I'm a big fan of. If you're gonna cover a song, you don't do the COVID like the original. What's the point? You're never gonna be better than the original. And I love your song, which is why I did it my way, right. So I'm sitting on the couch and I press play. And here's Terry. And I'm here. And Terry sits there like for four minutes and doesn't move a muscle. He listens to me and I'm.

[A]

He's listening to it.

[B]

Okay, hold on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'm looking at him kind of. Does he like it? Does he not like it? Because I don't want to offend him. And so the song finishes and he doesn't say anything. And so I go over to the, like, turn off the cassette and I kind of look at him. He just sits there like this. So to this day, I don't know if he liked it. Didn't like it. He never said anything.

[A]

Anything. Nothing.

[B]

Nothing. Not a word.

[A]

Whoa, that's. But, but to this day that's worse than saying something.

[B]

But to this day I'll be somewhere and somebody will say, oh, I saw Terry said to say hi to you. Oh, always sweet through back channels. And.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So whatever happened in that moment.

[A]

Wow, that's wild. So that's wild.

[B]

So. So you're making a new record?

[A]

Yes, well, I just finished that one. It Seemed to go by pretty quick, though. I was like, oh, my God, it's time to make another record. I was thinking of making a Christmas record. I wanted to make a rock and roll Christmas record and sing goddamn Jingle Bells with the rock stars.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

That's what I wanted to do.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Really, I want to make, like, a happy record, happy music for everybody.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, the thing I tie up about the Hollywood Lie was I suffered a real traumatic experience. I was going in to make that record. Completely different with these other songs that I have now stored up. But the night I went to play this concert. I'll wrap it up with you, tape or not. But I wanted to tell you this. Since you told me about what you said to me about your mother. Something happened to me that hurts deep like that. The husband I was married to in the middle, Len, he was a big bodybuilder. His pitch is in there. Big guy, six, seven. And he was from New York, went to school in Boston. Bu became a bodybuilder photographer. And he was the first drummer that ever played with Aerosmith in New York City in Westchester, New York. But he didn't. Couldn't play the drums. So it didn't happen. And he ended up being an entrepreneur. Ends up. We stay friends for our whole lives. I marry him. We're married for a few years, and we still stay friends. We separate. His birthday's February 27th. Pisces, another Pisces. We were dear friends forever. I met him when I was 18 years old at the Playboy Club. He took my picture as the Playboy bunny. And I married him into, like, you know, the 37s. Anyway, we stay together all this time, end up coming back. He marries another girl. They break. Okay, that. Then this Covid thing happens. And he calls me. He says, yeah, a place for me to live. My son happens to be managing and managing the apartment building. I go, as a matter of fact, I'll help you. Come on, you know it's convenient. And I was knowing he was getting older, his muscles were going down, and everything was just. It was. He was. It was. He was feeling the lack of the power of being a bodybuilder. So I felt pretty bad for him, moved him into the building. Anyway, make a long story short. Brought him over candies. He played Howard Hughes with me there for two years. Didn't let me in. Finally, one night, I go to a concert. And I'm supposed to go in the studio and record the next day, play the concert. I come home, it's four in the morning, his lights are out. I wake up the next day, his girlfriend's calling me. Go in his apartment. I think he committed suicide. Wake him up, I get the keys, I go over, find him dead, naked on the floor. He commits suicide, okay? And he told me the night I was leaving for the concert, he was gonna eat a steak, blah, blah, blah. Take all these pills and kill himself. And I'm saying, no, no, no, I can't do that right now. Wait till tomorrow. I'll be back after the concert. Right. So that's what happened. And I had to go in the studio that day, and I went, uh. Oh. Oh, God. Oh, God. I'm not going to sing happy songs today. I get to the studio and go, change of plans here. This record is called Hollywood Lie. And we're going to talk about the Great Gatsby, who didn't even exist. But he's a figment in our mind. And don't we do that with everyone?

[B]

Right?

[A]

We put a figment in our mind. You can be who you are, but you're going to be who I think you are. Because I like that better.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I might think of you, you in a ballerina outfit later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. But I'm gonna think of you. And that's gonna be how I feel, to cultivate how I love you in my deepest feelings. If you want to call it love, I don't know what it means.

[B]

That's.

[A]

I keep saying you to you. A passion for him was so strong. I saw what he did. He said what he said he'd do, and he did it. His shiny shoes were right there. His tuxedo was ready to get put on, but he passed out before he could get to the clothes. And it was almost funny. It was almost really. This is life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I.

[B]

That changed the trajectory of the. So you're still sitting on all those other songs that you were gonna.

[A]

Yeah. And so I went in the studio and started writing these songs about. Your life is fading away, you know? You know, you're living alone and you have all the world in your hand as a pot of gold, but you kiss it away for what you think you might get, but doesn't really happen. And then you wake up and it never was that way anyway. And you forgot to tell yourself that. So that's where I went with that record. And it was an expression that I had to make. Just had to do it. I was so lucky enough that I was let to do that because it was a great release for me. And I think all the songs that I've ever written about, all the things that happened to me are because of something that made such an impression upon me that I want to share my news. I want to share with you I'm a kind Giving, sharing understanding Want to cure the world Wish I could Wish I could make this all go away and everybody understand how Just go easy and everything will be all right if you just give me a hand Makes it go away Just like that See,

[B]

can't follow that up.

[A]

I love you. I love you with all my heart.

[B]

Namaste.

[A]

I love you. I love you. We make a record anyway. Let's do it right.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

A happy record.

[B]

Yeah, you're happy. Have to work on that with me.

[A]

Happy record for the goodness.

[B]

I'm really good in minor keys, you know.

[A]

That's okay. But though. But so am I. I'm great in 11. I can sing anything in 11. Yeah, you did really?

[B]

You guys did do some weird frog there for a second.

[A]

I do that. I do do that. I talk sometimes in 11. Oh, okay. Stop, Breathe.

[B]

Okay, we're done.

[A]

All right.

[B]

They'll come in and talk to us.

[A]

You're a genius.

[B]

Oh, God bless you.

[A]

You know you are and I'm honored to be have had this time with you here today. Whether we see each other again, we will.