Dale Bozzio | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dale Bozzio | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Release Date: April 17, 2025

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Introduction

In the April 17, 2025 episode of The Magnificent Others, host Billy Corgan sits down with Dale Bozzio, the iconic lead singer of the 1980s new wave band Missing Persons. Known for her distinctive vocal style and avant-garde aesthetic, Bozzio shares profound insights into her life, career, and the influences that shaped her journey to musical greatness.

Early Life and Influences

Dale Bozzio opens up about her upbringing in Boston, born into a Roman Catholic family. She recounts her Italian heritage and a remarkable family history, including a great-grand uncle who served as an acting Pope in the Vatican. Bozzio explains how her father's work as a builder and her tumultuous family dynamics influenced her resilience and artistic expression.

Dale Bozzio [05:21]: "My great grand uncle of the seventh generation died acting Pope in the Vatican in Rome."

Surviving the Accident and Coma

A pivotal moment in Bozzio’s life occurred when she fell 40 feet out of a window in 1976, landing in Los Angeles. This near-fatal accident left her in a coma for approximately six to eight months. Bozzio describes waking up in Frank Zappa's living room, a subsequent transfer to Boston, and the extensive life support that kept her alive.

Dale Bozzio [12:09]: "I slipped into a coma. I wake up a year older... I broke my kneecap, broke my floating ribs and split my head open. 52 stitches. And really a miracle to be alive."

Connection with Frank Zappa and Music Journey

Frank Zappa played a crucial role in Bozzio’s recovery and musical career. Their fortuitous meeting post-accident led to her involvement in Zappa's world, where she was encouraged to channel her experiences into music. This collaboration birthed the song "Destination Unknown."

Dale Bozzio [16:55]: "Frank saved my life. Frank made me an icon. I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth."

Bozzio discusses how Zappa’s support was instrumental in forming Missing Persons and developing her unique sound, which blends her poetic lyrics with innovative new wave music.

Relationship with Terry Bozzio

Meeting Terry Bozzio, who would become her husband and the drummer for Missing Persons, marked another significant chapter. Their relationship began amidst the vibrant Los Angeles music scene, eventually leading to marriage in 1979. Bozzio highlights Terry's genius and his influence on her musical and personal life.

Dale Bozzio [35:51]: "He learned how to play the drum on hitting a dime and he does not click his drumsticks. He is beyond... a savant."

Experiences with Prince

Bozzio recounts a memorable encounter with Prince, illustrating her adventurous and bold personality. She describes an unexpected dance-off with him, showcasing the spontaneous and creative interactions she had with other musical legends.

Dale Bozzio [38:22]: "He kept his shoes on for all activities... I had to go."

Songwriting and Artistic Identity

Identifying herself as a poet rather than a conventional singer, Bozzio delves into her songwriting process. She emphasizes the personal nature of her lyrics and how her life experiences, including trauma and resilience, have profoundly influenced her music.

Dale Bozzio [53:20]: "I think I'm a poet. I do. I always thought that."

Reflections on Fame and Image

Bozzio reflects on her role as a female artist in a predominantly male industry. She discusses her deliberate approach to image and performance, aiming to present a radical and empowering portrayal of femininity. Her experiences highlight the challenges and triumphs of maintaining artistic integrity amidst fame.

Billy Corgan [58:36]: "When you would stand there with your band, you weren't the star... you were an equal."

Conclusion: Impact and Legacy

As the conversation winds down, Bozzio shares her ongoing commitment to music and personal growth. She acknowledges the complexities of navigating the music industry while staying true to oneself. Billy Corgan expresses his deep admiration for Bozzio’s talent and legacy, underscoring her lasting influence on artists and fans alike.

Billy Corgan [66:23]: "We just met, but like a year ago, I found myself listening to you again a lot."

Dale Bozzio [89:04]: "You know you are and I'm honored to have had this time with you here today, whether we see each other again."

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Key Takeaways

• Resilience and Recovery: Bozzio's survival after her accident and coma was a turning point, leading to her collaboration with Frank Zappa.

• Musical Innovation: Her work with Missing Persons under Zappa’s mentorship established her as a pioneer in the new wave genre.

• Personal Relationships: Her marriage to Terry Bozzio and interactions with figures like Prince enriched her personal and professional life.

• Artistic Identity: Emphasizing her role as a poet, Bozzio maintains a unique and authentic presence in the music industry.

• Legacy: Bozzio’s influence endures, inspiring musicians and fans with her courageous artistry and distinctive style.

Notable Quotes

• Dale Bozzio [00:13]: "I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth."

• Dale Bozzio [16:55]: "Frank saved my life. Frank made me an icon."

• Dale Bozzio [35:51]: "He is one of the top 10 greatest drummers in the world."

• Billy Corgan [58:36]: "You were in the band. You were an equal."

• Billy Corgan [66:23]: "You're a genius."

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Conclusion

Dale Bozzio's conversation with Billy Corgan offers a deep dive into the life of an artist who transcended personal and professional challenges to leave an indelible mark on the music world. Her stories of survival, creativity, and unwavering dedication provide invaluable insights into the making of a musical icon.

Transcript

[Dale Bozio]

I'm not the original anybody, because first of all, I came before Lady Gaga, so I don't know how I could be the original lady anybody, you know, number one. Okay, so let's get real here.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you like being a Playboy Bunny?

[Dale Bozio]

I did. And I was a billiards bunny. I shot pool.

[Billy Corgan]

And how's your pool?

[Dale Bozio]

Superior. I passed out in 76 and woke up in 77. You gotta remember, I fell 40ft out of a window.

[Billy Corgan]

You were in a coma for a year.

[Dale Bozio]

Half a year. Life support.

[Billy Corgan]

DL Bozio helped define the sound and aesthetic of the 80s as lead singer of the new wave band Missing Persons. But what happens after the glow goes away? What happens after the influence wanes and others take what you've created? I'm here with one of my favorite singers of all time, Ms. Dale Bozio. I bought this book not long ago. I love this book. You put a lot of your heart in this book. No.

[Dale Bozio]

Are you asking me that?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Or telling me that?

[Billy Corgan]

I'm asking because I feel like your heart's really in. Well, let's put this place.

[Dale Bozio]

Yes, I agree.

[Billy Corgan]

You're a fellow Pisces, like me.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, really?

[Billy Corgan]

You're March 2nd on March 17th. So I understand your pain. That's where we're going to start this interview.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay. Well, now we're on. Now we know.

[Billy Corgan]

But as a fan of yours, I always feel you always led with your heart in your music. Is that accurate?

[Dale Bozio]

Yes. Or my.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but is that how you are in life? Because that's how I feel. But I don't know that.

[Dale Bozio]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

So this. This book.

[Dale Bozio]

I think you know more than you say you do. Now that we know that we're not birthdays, we're doing Pisces, and where we're coming from is a whole other level. I love that shirt.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, thank you.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. You look very. You look fantastic. You look fantastic.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, I know I had to dress up for you.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, thank you very much.

[Billy Corgan]

You always had true style.

[Dale Bozio]

It wasn't. I tell you the thing about that style and those Plexiglas.

[Billy Corgan]

We're not. The Plexiglass. Bloobs are on, like, page four of these.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay, whatever. I'm with you.

[Billy Corgan]

We're starting with music.

[Dale Bozio]

What about it?

[Billy Corgan]

Well, your most recent album, Hollywood Lie. Right.

[Dale Bozio]

Is. Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

So I was curious on that because I felt like you were kind of going for. I don't want to say a retro sound, because it's not Fair to call your sound retro because you invented that sound. But did you purposely want to make kind of a 80s ish sounding missing person's record? Does it make sense?

[Dale Bozio]

That's a big question.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, they're all big questions.

[Dale Bozio]

I mean, the music is one thing, the attitude's another. The process is one and all. And why you do it is another reason.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, so for me, pick one of those.

[Dale Bozio]

So for me, the music, the reason that came out that way was I don't take the intention of sounding any which way for any reason. I'm a non singer. I come from.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm gonna argue with you about that, by the way.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay, well, I developed into something from nothing.

[Billy Corgan]

Right, but that's why you're a great singer.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, so I just sort of self taught in a facet. And so with the music of how that Hollywood lie ended up was that I said I want to focus on being simple and synchronize my impression of my vocal of how that will be taken. What impression that is gonna set on you when you hear me say these words.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so you felt that musical backdrop.

[Dale Bozio]

Was I sing to you. I wanted. Now after all I've done. I mean, that's why. I mean, only because, not because I'm a new band and I'm looking for hit number one, bang top, you know, gotta have a riff and kick and, you know, what's the glitch? No, that's not the story. I have to succumb to people like you that would say, oh, what, what does this mean? What does this mean?

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's what I'm asking you.

[Dale Bozio]

Right. So that's. I guess I did the right thing then.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah, you made me ask the question, which is what you wanted.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. Okay, thank you very much. Okay, I appreciate that.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm curious. We're going back here to the beginning. So you were born In Boston in 1955?

[Dale Bozio]

Mm, yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Catholic family?

[Dale Bozio]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

How did I know that? I just can feel it.

[Dale Bozio]

Because I'm polite.

[Billy Corgan]

Italian, Roman. Okay. My Roman Catholic.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, me too. My great grand uncle of the seventh generation died acting Pope in the Vatican in Rome. My father is Roman. And when I went to Rome on tour with Frank Sappa, he got paperwork for me to be allowed to go into the Vatican to see all the frozen, cryogenically frozen popes. Because one of them was my name, Consalvi. My maiden. My father's name was a Roman name, Consalvi.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you go in?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. And that I got. Cause it was on my passport. Consulvi.

[Billy Corgan]

So you Saw all the frozen popes.

[Dale Bozio]

I saw all the frozen popes.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it wild?

[Dale Bozio]

Terry Bozie came with me. And Terry says, can I. Can. Can we take a Polaroid? I'm like, terry, you're serious, right? We went in with scarfs on. Terry said, get the scarf up over his nose. His pumps like this. And all these pulps are above your head, like eye level. Up in these clear caskets, dressed to the nines. And they're papa. And they're all.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you see your ancestor?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, and I stood right next to him. And so we leave, we see and we do all this stuff, you know, paperwork all assigned to get in, get out and all this stuff. Yeah. And console. The Pope's all over the Vatican. He's in the walls, the whole nine yards. Right. So we go back to Frank's, the hotel and Frank's offices to Terry. Well, does she look like the Pope, Terry? Because she looks exactly like him. She looks exactly like him. They stood standing next to each other. I couldn't believe it. And that's what was like, the biggest joke. Because prior to going on that tour, I had fallen out of a window. But I had made Joe's Garage. I was never in Frank's band. I only made records with Frank. So because I made Joe's Garage with Frank, then he was thinking of doing all this other stuff. So he took me on the tall with him.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah, this is 70.

[Dale Bozio]

It's like 79. 78. 78.

[Billy Corgan]

And my father, by the way, my father was a musician. He was obsessed with that record.

[Dale Bozio]

So I heard.

[Billy Corgan]

I heard that record a lot.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, no, really?

[Billy Corgan]

And my dad was a stoner, drug dealer type who would listen to Zappa.

[Dale Bozio]

Was his middle name Dale?

[Billy Corgan]

Yes. Did you know that?

[Dale Bozio]

I did. I noted that. I noted that.

[Billy Corgan]

William Dale Corgan.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, that's very, very.

[Billy Corgan]

There you go.

[Dale Bozio]

Very staunch, very good.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you know what. Is Dale Gaelic, or is it.

[Dale Bozio]

Dale only really means a small valley. That's it. That's what it means. But it. See, I personally was named after Dale Evans, the woman that was the singer. Cowboy. Very famous back then in the 50s.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

So that's what.

[Billy Corgan]

Who was kind of the paragon of virtue.

[Dale Bozio]

And that was sort of what.

[Billy Corgan]

So young Catholic girl growing up in Boston. Family religious or just kind of in name only?

[Dale Bozio]

No, my family. My father wasn't that. He believed in God and thought God was watching us upstairs. He thought God lived on the third floor of our house. But he met me at the breakfast table with a.45 and a glass of whiskey. So I don't know how happy he was with that. And, you know, it seemed all right to me. I mean, it seemed like the normal thing to do.

[Billy Corgan]

Right?

[Dale Bozio]

You know, he cooked me a five course breakfast. Lunch was waiting. Dinner was like. So you could smell it down the block.

[Billy Corgan]

What did your daddy do?

[Dale Bozio]

My father was a builder.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

A builder and a carpenter for a lot of really different. No. Oh, so none. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Was that hard in Boston?

[Dale Bozio]

Never paid a day in tax.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah. Okay, now I feel your flow now.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah. And my father had a semi full of Chesterfield cigarettes and Lucky Strikes in the driveway and the other semi and some friends. Yeah. And the other semi was full of whiskey.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

So.

[Billy Corgan]

No training as a singer? Yeah. Right. I mean, did you sing when you were young, though?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, I used to fake it and sing the Pied Piper in the Window. I'm the Pied Pied Piper. Follow me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So you sang along to the radio type thing?

[Dale Bozio]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

But you. You never saw yourself as a singer?

[Dale Bozio]

No, I wanted to be a movie star.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. And who were your. Who'd you admire as a movie star?

[Dale Bozio]

Veronica Lake. Gene Hollow.

[Billy Corgan]

Have you met the guy here who's the Gene Harlow expert?

[Dale Bozio]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

I could introduce you to him. A friend of mine is one of his friends. He has the greatest Jean Harlow collection. I think he has her car. He has all this crazy stuff of Jean Harlow.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, Lord.

[Billy Corgan]

Even has when she would do her makeup and, like, they would, you know, like a woman will do, like, they kiss her lips.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But he has the original tissue.

[Dale Bozio]

Tissue.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, my God.

[Billy Corgan]

So if you want me to introduce you to this gentleman.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

He's like the leading Gene Harlow expert in the world and wrote a book on her.

[Dale Bozio]

Insane.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, my Lord.

[Billy Corgan]

So Jean Harlow.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, yeah. Oh, Veronica Lake, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Peekaboo, right?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. I just. I admired all those.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you want to be, like, a film noir type of actress or.

[Dale Bozio]

I watched movies with my father till it went off on the youth on the show when I was growing up because we didn't have the availability that you have now of what this movie.

[Billy Corgan]

So what was it about?

[Dale Bozio]

I saw were the black and whites with these women that all had blonde hair that appeared to me with these skinny little dresses on. Had, like, fancy cars and fur coats, and we're always smiling and drinking. And I thought, okay, that's fun. That's what I want to be.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so did you like girl groups? I mean, what was the kind of music you did like?

[Dale Bozio]

To be honest, with you, I really am not a musically based person of life. I'm more.

[Billy Corgan]

You're not a music listener?

[Dale Bozio]

Movies? No, I watch many movies. I could digest 10 to 12 movies if I had to. I have so many movie channels. I watch more movies than I could. I have to catch up.

[Billy Corgan]

My wife laughs. Because I only watch, like, 30s movies. That's me.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, listen, I watch the 40 movies. 40s movies.

[Billy Corgan]

You're more 40s?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, I'm more 40s movies. Because when I was growing up in the 55s, I was watching the movies, too.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

You got to remember the movies I'm watching.

[Billy Corgan]

Here's some of your favorite 40s movies.

[Dale Bozio]

I can't even remember off the top of my head right now. You know, you gotta remember. I fell 40ft out of a window.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, But I. What year did you fall out the window?

[Dale Bozio]

I was 21. It was 1970. September. Listen, I wrote the book for three reasons. Let's. Let me just clear this up with you. Yeah. This book we're plugging now that you keep asking me these, like in. Like in leading questions. We're just getting started to my life. But the reason I wrote that book is for one of the reasons. On September 10, 1976, I fell out of a window.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

From downtown LA, in Los Angeles, of Holiday Inn.

[Billy Corgan]

Now is the story that somebody was trying to come in and hurt you or rape you, or.

[Dale Bozio]

They were gonna kill me. Basically, that's what happened.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you know this person or.

[Dale Bozio]

No, it was a security guard and he told me that he was gonna kill me. And I. That word. And I suppose you run for help, right? So I ran for help, opened the window, and.

[Billy Corgan]

You are a little thing.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, it's just a little girl. I had, you know, I had actually gold cowboy boots on. You know, I was just regularly watching Johnny Carson. My cousin had just had an asthma attack. Anyway, make a long story short, I fall out the window. This was just weeks after I finished making Joe's garage. 1, 2, 3 and 4. Now my life ends, I slip into a coma. I wake up in Frank Zappa's living room. Coma again, shipped me to Boston. Life support. I wake up a year older.

[Billy Corgan]

You were in a coma for a year?

[Dale Bozio]

Half a year. Life support.

[Billy Corgan]

Were you in and out or you. You were out?

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, no. Out.

[Billy Corgan]

So for six months, you're out?

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, no. Eight. Close to, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you remember anything from being out or were you just out?

[Dale Bozio]

No, I was out for a long time.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm saying, were you dreaming during this Period. Or you're just out.

[Dale Bozio]

Out.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[Dale Bozio]

Blank. Life supports.

[Billy Corgan]

So it's a miracle you're here.

[Dale Bozio]

Life supports. Medicine. Well, yeah. I broke my kneecap, broke my floating ribs and split my head open. 52 stitches. And really a miracle to be alive.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[Dale Bozio]

Pretty much. And so I wanted that stated to the world more so. And then recorded in my own words to say what happened.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that where the Window song.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, that's where all the songs really come from. That's when I wake up and I write destination unknown.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, boy. Oh, really? Is that what happens? You clearly black out and that's it and there's nothing. Nothing. And when I woke up, it all came back. And it came back really fast, I see. And smashingly. And for six months I was blind because of the concussion and the whole coma, blah, blah. And so then Frank Zappa rang my mother's home phone under the clear blue sky and said, we're going on a tour to Europe. Want to come with me tomorrow? I'm like, this is my own phones, right? And I said, yes, Frank, okay, I'll go. I basically think it was 77 now because that's when I woke up. I passed out in 76 and woke up in 77. And so Frank called and I.

[Billy Corgan]

You weren't married at this point yet, right?

[Dale Bozio]

No, no. I only knew Terry at. At the beginning. At the beginning. We had a relationship and Terry always said it should have been a one night stand. And, you know, weren't they all.

[Billy Corgan]

Sounds like a drummer.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, exactly. You know? Really doesn't surprise me, you know? No, I love Terry Bozio, you know? Love Terry Bozio. I told him then he would be one of the greatest drummers in the world. Had to convince him night after night after night after night. There's some things that just a woman knows. I tell them. But I had an incredible time with Terry, you know. So what happened then? Terry? I met Terry and Frank in the airport in New York. And the next day my mother thought I lost my mind. I'm on morphine. I'm like, you know your headaches. I go, yeah, well, no more CAT scans for me, babe. See you later. I gotta go. And I just said, I'm not gonna die. Everything's all right. And I left. And that was it. And Frank just said, come on, let's go. Go to Europe. We get to every. Every single lunch dinner, the waitress man would come say, okay, this is Dale now. She just fell 40ft out of a window and she wants shrimp and cookies. Let's get that. And the whole band would sit there and go, he's not doing this. He's not. Literally. And he did every.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you want shrimp and cookies?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, I did. I did.

[Billy Corgan]

Why? Shrimp and cookies.

[Dale Bozio]

That was the only thing I could think of. He put me on the spot so many times. He said, what do you want to eat? What's your favor? I go, I don't know, Frank. Shrimp and cookies. And I couldn't live it down. I swear to God. I swear, by the time we get to the end of the tour, we're three months later.

[Billy Corgan]

How skinny were you at this point?

[Dale Bozio]

The waitress came and the whole band went, she wants shrimp and cookies. It was hysterical.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dale Bozio]

I guess she had to be there.

[Billy Corgan]

No, it sounds.

[Dale Bozio]

It was insane.

[Billy Corgan]

It sounds Zappa esque.

[Dale Bozio]

I had the most impressionable time with Frank. Frank threads the whole book.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

That's why I'm telling you this story. Frank saved my life. Frank made me an icon. I am who I am today because of Frank Zappa. That is the truth.

[Billy Corgan]

What do you think?

[Dale Bozio]

Nothing more than that.

[Billy Corgan]

Outside of the musicality in you, which I want to talk about, what did Frank see in you?

[Dale Bozio]

Well, that's something else.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but I want to get to that. But what did Frank see in you as a person?

[Dale Bozio]

You think you could hear the timbre in my voice when I speak? You. You hear that edge? That's what Frank heard.

[Billy Corgan]

No, but I want to. I want to say when he saw.

[Dale Bozio]

In you as a person, that's what he said.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but I want to.

[Dale Bozio]

He said, I hear it. Well, of course he would hear it. I hear you. I hear you. And you. He say, you are hysterical, and that's it. And he.

[Billy Corgan]

So you feel like he understood you?

[Dale Bozio]

The day I met him, I climbed in. I climbed up three flights of the Orpheum Theater in Boston, the fire escape, and I climbed in the window and I opened the door and Frank was standing there and he looked at me and he went, how did you get in here? I said, frank, I climbed up the fire escape and I climbed into the bathroom window.

[Billy Corgan]

He went like a Beatles song.

[Dale Bozio]

He said, you didn't do that. I said, there's the bathroom. I did. He knew it was the bathroom because it was a backstage bathroom. It was one bathroom, one window, and you couldn't get in and out of there except through the fire escape. He started laughing hysterically. He laughed hysterically.

[Billy Corgan]

Why did you climb in through the window to see the concert?

[Dale Bozio]

Because I had to see the concert.

[Billy Corgan]

Were you A Zappa fan?

[Dale Bozio]

I was a Zappa fan at the time.

[Billy Corgan]

Were you one of those stoner Zappa fans?

[Dale Bozio]

Yes. I was a hippie originally, so I was completely into Frank's oddity, and it wasn't. And it was either that or Tavares, because I love dancing disco.

[Billy Corgan]

Just the soul band.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

What was their big hit?

[Dale Bozio]

Disco Queen Heaven Must be Missing an angel. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Tavares.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. I'm the biggest fan ever, you know, so. But then, you know, I switch to the other side and get a little, kind of like Prague, you know? Interesting. And I listen a little. I listen a little more to Frank and he's really playing it himself.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

You know, and like, going, hmm. Okay. So anyway. So anyway, as it went on, my relationship with Frank grew because by the time that was 16 when I met him through the dressing room window.

[Billy Corgan]

16 years old?

[Dale Bozio]

Yes. Now, he asked me out to the dinner. I go out to the dinner. He asked me into the hotel room. I say, frank, I can't go into the hotel room. I don't even have a driver's license. I'm driving this car. I can't go to your party. I'm 16. He said, you're right, you can't go to the party. And he kissed me on the forehead. And he walked away and said, goodbye, I'll see you again. I just looked at him, lit up a joint and drove away crying, thinking, that's not possible. I was 16 that day, and he was doing some big tour at the time. 12 piece orchestra. I end up being 21. I'm in California and I'm in the Playboy magazine. I'm Playboy Bunny of the Year for Boston.

[Billy Corgan]

I stop you there. How do you become Playboy Bunny of the Year?

[Dale Bozio]

Hefner has to pick you.

[Billy Corgan]

So you were just picked out of a lineup?

[Dale Bozio]

Out of. He gets all these photographs because he's the editor and he picks who thinks.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you like being a Playboy bunny?

[Dale Bozio]

I did.

[Billy Corgan]

It was kind of. There was a bit of prestige.

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely. In Boston.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. You wore the costume with the tail.

[Dale Bozio]

Yes, I did.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you have pictures of you like this?

[Dale Bozio]

I do, I do. And I was a billiards bunny. I shot pool.

[Billy Corgan]

And how was your pool?

[Dale Bozio]

Superior. Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

They used to, like, take the marks.

[Dale Bozio]

I won every game. That was it. I think I made more money then than I do now.

[Billy Corgan]

Pool shark.

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

I never knew you were sharing.

[Dale Bozio]

My brother taught me how to play pool down the basin. He was nine years older than me and he was a pool shark. And I wasn't gonna Tell anybody. That's the gimmick.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't think they're gonna beat the little girl up in pool.

[Dale Bozio]

I knew everything about the sticks and the.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you still play?

[Dale Bozio]

I haven't played lately, but I can. You know, it's interesting though, right? When your childhood mechanisms. I was still, just still a kid. I was hired to be a Playboy bunny the day I turned 18, right? So I was a bunny from 18 to 21. And by the time I got to 21, Hefner called me to come to California. When I came to California, Hefner wouldn't come downstairs from his balcony. And I kind of flipped out because I'm from Boston and I have an edge and an attitude. And I said, I have a previous engagement. I gotta go. And I walked out of the mansion, and that was my day that I was gonna be Valentine at the front door, move in, be a centerfold, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I walked out. I had, like this anxiety attack. Turned around and walked out. Grabbed my Playboy magazine from the secretary and left. And I said, okay, keep going. There was no turning back. I turned on. I was driving a Firebird. It was. It was a 19. It was a 1972. Had you driven out five speed Recaro seats? Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, so you'd driven out, then me.

[Dale Bozio]

Drove it with two Playboy bunnies in the backseat. Navy blue rag top, down black interior, five speed.

[Billy Corgan]

Are we styling?

[Dale Bozio]

I blew from Boston to Hefner's house. Now he wouldn't talk to me. Yeah, and I was a little off. I peeled out of that mansion at about a 190. You know, I was so mad, I couldn't even shift the car. I was going so fast. I pulled out of the air and I went, oh, that's really great. Where are you gonna go now? You know, I have this other side of me. You know what I mean? I really do. I have this, like, Dale over here, shoulder going. I know. I'm like that commercial on tv. You do it.

[Billy Corgan]

It'd be good if it was. If it was Dale Autry, actually.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. Like, there's a couple of people, like.

[Billy Corgan]

On the horse, like, going the wrong way.

[Dale Bozio]

I gotta kinda get that attitude, you know? Like, I just. If things don't go my way, not that I don't mean it, but I exit because it could be dangerous. I see things differently than people do. And in an extreme emergency. You want me. You want me? I'll see you.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you've survived death.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, I will go. I'm like the fireman that runs into the fire.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

Like the Foolish Men. Fireman laughs.

[Billy Corgan]

Is this where you end up going to fire Find Frank Zappa? Is this.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, this is what happened. That's what happened. And that same day. Yeah, it was 15 minutes later. I'm on SIR Studio Instrumental Lofts in Hollywood.

[Billy Corgan]

But why'd you go there?

[Dale Bozio]

Because I had a guitar player that was just up and coming, and he told me he was going to be there if anything went wrong. And he lived on North Orange Drive in California, and I was sleeping on his couch. The day before I was supposed to move into the mansion.

[Billy Corgan]

Got it.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay. So now I get to this lot. I'm on E. I'm in black leather, head to toe. I'm this little blonde girl, you know, I can't hear from Boston. I get, like, my black leather jack in the back. I didn't know it was gonna be 95 degrees. Sure. I walk on the lot, I hear this music playing. And I know it's Frank. Cause I know Frank's miser. I look over the door. The door has a sign on it, big letters. If you value your life, do not open this door.

[Billy Corgan]

So you open the door.

[Dale Bozio]

I open the door. I open the door, there's Frank. He's looking at me. He says.

[Billy Corgan]

He says, did he recognize you?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. He says, what are you doing here? I mean, Frank, you recognize me? He goes, yeah, you just opened the door? Yeah. From Boston. What are you doing here? I go, well, now, that was 16 when he met.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes. This is five years later.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. I'm like, frank, remember me? He goes, yeah. What are you doing? What are you doing? I'm just standing there in black leatherhead to do, holding a Playboy magazine. The last time I saw him, I had green hair with a miniskirt and a marabou top on, right? With these spike shoes. And he goes, okay. I go, well, I just left Hugh Hefner's house. I don't have a job, I have no money. The gas is on E. I'm not parked in a good space. And I'm really hungry. Frank.

[Billy Corgan]

And he is the band all sort of sitting there. Is this.

[Dale Bozio]

The band's right there? Yeah, it's Eddie Jobson. Okay. Is it Eddie Jobson? Over There is Patrick O'Reilly and Terry Bozio. Damn. Right. Yeah, Right. And I'm standing there like I'm sweating. Because it's, like, such an incredible story, you know? Like, I go, I'm right there. Like, I'm right there. And I go. I go, frank, I look at the whole thing. I go, really? Sorry to interrupt, Frank. I kind of like, stop walking backwards. He goes, no, no, no, wait. No, wait. You need a job. I go, yeah, I do, Frank. I need a job. I said, I've got to go call my mother. I gotta get Western Union. You know, I gotta go back to Boston. You know, I drove here. He said, you drove here? Yeah, I drove here. He said, okay, well, okay, there's an apple over there, and I'm gonna put you on the payroll. Tomorrow. You're going to be married. You're gonna meet Mary from Joe's Garage. And I needed Mary. And you're my Mary. And I went, but, Frank, I came to Hollywood to be an actress, a movie star.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry, movie star, not actress.

[Dale Bozio]

I don't know how to sing. He started laughing hysterically. He fell down on the floor, laughing on his knees, like, literally holding his head. Okay? It was the most incredible scene you've ever seen in your life. Frank Zappa just literally laughing his ass off. Like, literally. And those three over there didn't know what the. Was going on, right? They thought I was his girlfriend, right? So Frank goes, okay, you're on the payroll.

[Billy Corgan]

Here's an apple. Here's an apple.

[Dale Bozio]

And he's telling them, mary's here. It's Mary. You know, he's like, so happy, you know?

[Billy Corgan]

And you never sang professionally a day in your life? No.

[Dale Bozio]

I'm like, frank, Frank, you don't understand. Frank, Frank, I don't even know how to sing. I'll do housekeeping. And he just kept laughing. He just kept laughing. And I'm like, okay. He said, It's $500 a week. You can't refuse. It's insurance and dental. And I'm looking at him like, that's not a movie contract, man. You know I love you, babe, but I don't know about that, right? So I'm like, okay, Frank. All right, Frank, see you later. You know what? You know what I mean? I just walked in out of glibly sky. He goes, no, no, wait. Terry Bozio is going to take you to the studio tomorrow morning. You sleep at Terry's tonight. I go, I sleep at Terry's tonight. Okay. All right. Talk to you later. Gotta go.

[Billy Corgan]

So we even found your future husband, Right?

[Dale Bozio]

Exactly. And right then and there, Terry and I became an item.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you know right away about Terri?

[Dale Bozio]

I know. I was going along with the program.

[Billy Corgan]

No, I get that. But I'm saying sometimes. Sometimes women have a way of knowing something about a man before the man figures it out.

[Dale Bozio]

I know. No, no, I knew that. I really appreciated him and I knew that he was so talented. He was. I could. I could. He just. And he was a precious human being. I wasn't really planning. I wasn't planning to get married. I wasn't planning on any of those things. I wasn't planning on being in a rock band. Really.

[Billy Corgan]

That's what's so beautiful about the story. You met Terry in 1976.

[Dale Bozio]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

And you were married in 79?

[Dale Bozio]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Parents approve?

[Dale Bozio]

They loved him. But my. My parents were separated when I was very small. I had a very estranged family.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

My mother was very odd, and my father. They were separated and my father dedicated his life to me and took care of me, and she went on with her life to do whatever it was that she thought that she had to do.

[Billy Corgan]

So you didn't really grow up with your mother?

[Dale Bozio]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

From what age on?

[Dale Bozio]

Nine.

[Billy Corgan]

Mine was four.

[Dale Bozio]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Where did your mother go?

[Billy Corgan]

Insane asylum.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, okay. So you. You understand the heavy tone that lays on your heart in your life?

[Billy Corgan]

Very much so.

[Dale Bozio]

So, okay. So. Well, then. Okay, well, you can relate to this. Not that I'm trying to top your story.

[Billy Corgan]

No, no.

[Dale Bozio]

But my mother. I used to think that my grandmother was my mother. And my mother. My grandmother died at 62. But my mother was always so wild and crazy. And she would make amends for my mother the whole time. And I didn't know till I found my mother's death certificate that my mother was born in a prison. Because My grandmother was 15 when she delivered my mother. And they took her from Canada to Lawrence, Massachusetts, and they put her in a prison so she would deliver the baby. And then they took the baby away from her and put my mother in a nunnery. And my mother grew up with nuns till she escaped. She escaped when she was 16 and went haywire. Ran into my father on the corner in the middle of a snowstorm in Boston. He was 20 or so for 18 years older than her. He picked her up off the curb and saved her little ass and took her home and took care of her and.

[Billy Corgan]

Are your parents still with us?

[Dale Bozio]

No. My father was born in 1910. He'd be 114 today. Yeah. And my mother passed away at 85. She just kind of just coughed and stated some incredible poems while she was gonna die. And she was more like a butterfly than a mother. She was always. I remember her just dancing and singing and thinking that she was the movie star. And she was really beautiful and blonde and blue ice blue Eyes. I write a song about her on my new record. It's called Ice Blue Eyes and how cold she is. And how fame isn't so much just fame, but fame is a word that makes you burn inside for something you long for, that you think you want, that you don't have.

[Billy Corgan]

That's true.

[Dale Bozio]

And you'll never really know till you get it. And then you find out it isn't anything.

[Billy Corgan]

I went through the same thing.

[Dale Bozio]

Right. And that's how I saw her.

[Billy Corgan]

I see not me.

[Dale Bozio]

That's how I saw her.

[Billy Corgan]

Did she. When you were successful, did she.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, she came back.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm saying, was she jealous? Was she supportive? Was she.

[Dale Bozio]

She couldn't tell. You know, I. She's such a mystery to me. I want to be honest with you, you know, because I hear what you just told me, and I have sympathy for that. But I know where your mind. I know you're trying to keep it all straight. And you're gonna have one eye open and keep watching behind, over your shoulder and behind your back. I know that attitude. I know that feeling. And I know that despair almost when there's nobody there but yourself, you know, and that's it. And you always end up with yourself. But I feel that from you. And I feel that that's why to me you reap kindness and like, caring and, you know, you wanna. Things.

[Billy Corgan]

I do want to fix things. So you're in love and you're married. What. What age were you married at?

[Dale Bozio]

Whoa. I'm thinking 27.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Somewhere in there. Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So did you feel like because. Because of your family circumstance, did you feel like you'd found sort of the. The right situation for you, or is it very much as we can get into life? You're on this journey and that's okay.

[Dale Bozio]

Never got. Never got that love. Don't know. I say it a lot because I know the most important thing, or two important things is saying to someone to. Is to say I love you and that I'm proud of you. And so I do that because I'm encourageable, because I know how hard it is to find courage and have to go so deep down into the dirty rinds of your past to be courageable. And so I try to give people a little piece of something that maybe they don't have to even look any further for. And they can kind of go, oh, she loves me. She doesn't even know me. But I said it. And when you say it, you kind of can't take it back.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm not trying to be gossipy, but I'm just trying to understand the dynamic. Because here in this relationship with this savant drummer, and I know Terry a little bit. He's definitely his own person, you know what I mean?

[Dale Bozio]

Terry's a genius. Terry's a genius as they come. Terry is an incredibly calculated genius. And he is one of the top 10 greatest drummers in the world.

[Billy Corgan]

Wouldn't argue with that.

[Dale Bozio]

He learned how to play the drum on hitting a dime and he does not click his drumsticks. He is beyond.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, no.

[Dale Bozio]

He's a savant. Savant. Absolutely. Absolutely. I know a lot of geniuses and I kind of reflect. Most of my relationships have been with genius type people and I understand their.

[Billy Corgan]

But I want to talk about your. I want to talk about your genius. I know there's the sort of thing about where Frank encourages you in the band and stuff, but what was the sort of the organic part of this? Like you're married to this great musician. At what point does it start to become thing like we should have a band? Was it something you joked about or.

[Dale Bozio]

It was no joke.

[Billy Corgan]

No, because my wife is on me to start a band.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay, well, that's great.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, it's fine. And I'm happy to do a band, but I'm saying.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Couples have a way of talking about things that sometimes they happen, sometimes they don't.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, no, it wasn't like that at all, actually. It wasn't like that. It was more between Warren and I. Cucurulo.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. And Warren was in the Zappa world.

[Dale Bozio]

Warren was hired by Frank now. So Warren is just working with Frank. And so Terry goes on tour with uk, Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Which was that Phil who wasn't he.

[Dale Bozio]

That's John Wetton. John Wetton and Eddie Jobson.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, the three of them, they go.

[Dale Bozio]

To Europe and they do this tour.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you like that music? It was so super fun.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, no, super hi fi. Yeah, I loved it. You know, I do love, like that music. I prefer music with no vocals, personally.

[Billy Corgan]

Really? Really?

[Dale Bozio]

Yes, yes. In the strange sense of the way. It really disturbs me when I have to hear music to movies. I get distracted and I'm almost. I'm not. I'm listening to the beat.

[Billy Corgan]

I see.

[Dale Bozio]

I. Yeah, I get you can't get it, can't lose it. Can't I get a song 247 in my head? It's how, you know, I'm on a major tape loop. Tape. Funny, funny thing.

[Billy Corgan]

I like to hear that tape loop.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, the funny thing is I'll tell you this really quick, but I meet Prince in this disco Tramps, okay? I see him over there and I just walk in the front door with my friends. Just casual, you know, going to hang out, see Michael. Oh my God, it's Prince over there. So I walked directly over to him, poke him on the nose. You see his back like this. Two bodyguards go, what?

[Billy Corgan]

He had the biggest bodyguards I've ever seen.

[Dale Bozio]

Right? Well, ten times there was.

[Billy Corgan]

There was the one guy that was this wide.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, Bigger than him for sure. And I'm like, oh. I said, I'm sorry. I just wanted to ask you to dance. You're the best dancer in the place. He turned around and the bawdy guy goes. And we walked out and they started playing. Red Corvette. Stop. What was playing? Turned on red Corvette. He starts dancing with me. Stop dancing.

[Billy Corgan]

That's the first time you met him?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah. We sit down and he goes, hey, do you have a car? I go, they had a car up front. He goes, really? What kind of a car is it? I go, it's a Corvette. What color? I go, it's red. He goes, will you take me for a ride? I go, right now? I just got here. He goes, yeah, let's go. I had to go. I had to leave. Yeah. I go, okay, let's go. So we go outside and I pull up. He pulls up the limousine. I pull up the red Corvette. He gets. He comes. He comes and jumps in the red Corvette. He goes, can you drive me really fast? I'm looking at this guy going, holy, dude.

[Billy Corgan]

You know he's smaller than you.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah, we're the same exact size.

[Billy Corgan]

He was smaller than you, though. Take off the high heels.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to say he kept his shoes on for all activities. I will not deny it. I will not deny it. And he says, you gotta come over. I gotta play you something. I gotta play you some music. I go, really?

[Billy Corgan]

What town is this in?

[Dale Bozio]

We're in Beverly Hills, right here in California. I go, okay. He goes, but drive me really fast. You're talking to the wrong person. You're talking to the wrong person. It's five speed Corvette, right? So I'm at Wilshire in Santa Monica. I'm at 120. By the time I get to Westwood, okay, He's screaming, stop, stop. I scared this part of him. I couldn't believe it. So I pull over. You know when you're driving, you think you're in control, you know what I mean? So I pull Over. I slow down. I go slow. He goes, okay, go slow now. Okay. Don't do any more stop signs. Go the regular speed. I go, okay, okay. It's okay. It's okay. Which way to your house? Get to his house. We go upstairs. We go in these. He's having a full French party. It's 100 people in there. I'm going, what is going on here? You're at the club and there's a party going on over here. He goes, yeah, yeah. I couldn't stand it anymore. I'm like, okay, all right, whatever. And so it was just ironic that we met.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

He goes, please come upstairs. So I go upstairs, go into this room. It's got this big, huge white house. White everything. White carpet, white everything.

[Billy Corgan]

I heard he had, like, white everything.

[Dale Bozio]

White tent in the bedroom, white and everything. White piano. I'm like, okay, what are we doing here? I'm thinking, oh, do I have enough blow to deal with this time over here? I had no. I didn't plan on coming over Prince's house. I was supposed to go back into my dark. I left my friends flat and dry. Just screwed, Razel. I go to the ladies room. I go in the bathroom, and I'm, like, snorting all the coke I have left. And I'm going, oh, my God, what am I doing here? I walk back out and he goes, listen, sit down right there. I go, okay. It was one single little bed all in white. I sat on the edge of the bed. I have no idea what he was going to do. He said, eight hours. I need you for eight hours. You, you, me and you. Okay, you got me. Say no to Prince. I don't think so. He said, okay, okay, stay right there. He went over. He had this music system, Tapes like this. Like what? From the studio. I seen them.

[Billy Corgan]

He.

[Dale Bozio]

He turns this crank and it stops in its windows. My song. It's my song.

[Billy Corgan]

And I go, he's got your song on the tape thing.

[Dale Bozio]

He's big master tapes. I was like. I started laughing. I go, oh, that's Dale. He goes, yeah, you got eight hours. I go, yeah, I got eight hours. He made me listen to my music for eight hours. Eight hours. Okay. He danced around the piano. He went downstairs and brought me back up lasagna. He came back with wine. I was like, this isn't really happening. I was halfway passing out, right? But literally, the sun came up and kept coming up. And I was like, okay, listen, I gotta go home now, okay? I gotta go home. I gotta go home.

[Billy Corgan]

My dad Used to say, you know, he would always add. So you got dailed out.

[Dale Bozio]

Yep.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

It's terrible.

[Billy Corgan]

You got dailed out.

[Dale Bozio]

Blew my mind. Anyway, I pushed him down on the bed and had a sexual encounter with him and took him over the edge, I think, somewhere he never went before. And he got on the floor and begged me to marry him and go to Las Vegas right then and there. And I said, no, I'm not gonna do that to you. I'm my own identity and so are you, and I'll help you everywhere you go, and I'll be your friend for the rest of your life. And he said, right then and there.

[Billy Corgan]

That's a very Pisces thing of you to do.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, of course. Of course. I would never. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I was trying to ease his pain, is what I was doing. And I believe I did. I took him out of that. Being afraid. He was afraid. He was so afraid. I believe he was a voyeur, really. Of all his love affairs, had the most beautiful women. Apollonia. I know personally beautiful. You can't buy her beauty and her kindness and her care and her sensation. It just. He was somewhere else.

[Billy Corgan]

Stop right there, because we have to go back to you. Here I am and Terry Bozio.

[Dale Bozio]

Terry. Listen, I love Terry because I just love. It's. I'm enamored, I think.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but the band. How do we get to the band?

[Dale Bozio]

Frank said one day we were in the kitchen having peanut butter and jelly.

[Billy Corgan]

Sandwiches at the Zappa house.

[Dale Bozio]

At Frank's house. We went there every night of the week, Five nights of the week.

[Billy Corgan]

Let me ask you. This was being part of Zappa's world. It was like a family, right?

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

So you're part of the family.

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

And you're just in his world.

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely. I didn't hear. Listen to other music. That's why Shane asks me, my son, don't you know this? Don't you know that? Did you ever see Blah, Blah, Blah? Did you ever go? And I go, no. Like, I'd never met these people or go to meet them or see them or hear the music. We were Frank Zappa. Because Terry was working for Frank at the time. Warren was working for Frank at the time. I wasn't working for Frank. I was there, Frank. I made Frank laugh hysterically, as I've said. And that's why he kept me on the payroll, because it was. I'm not replaceable. And I gave him the news of everything that was happening all over the world.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. So you were like his.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, I was the one that came in and told him, who died today? What happened England today. I knew everything that was going on. I'm a sponge when it comes to news and everything that's going on, like, firsthand news. Cnn. And he was a big fan of cnn. That's what he had on in the studio at the time. You know, we didn't have the channel right. So he really respected that of me because I was up on what was happening at the time. Not music.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but how do we get to the band?

[Dale Bozio]

Frank said this afternoon while we were eating the peanut butter and jelly. Listen, I got it. You three put a band together, I'll pay for it. You call it the Cute Persons.

[Billy Corgan]

You call it the what?

[Dale Bozio]

The Cute Persons.

[Billy Corgan]

The Cute Persons.

[Dale Bozio]

I think. What was the day, the moment of shock. I could feel it for myself because I wasn't a musician. I was along for the ride. And here I am getting my moments. Is Frank putting me in a rock band? Are you kidding me? They'll listen to me now, won't they? Sure they will.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. They'll pay attention to me now. Finally. Cause I'm telling you, you gotta write a song called Destination Unknown. Cause I fell out a window and I know a few things. And they finally started to listen to me. And we went, we. And Frank said, okay, take my studio. I'm going to New York. Take this address right now. It's the address of Ken Scott, who produced. He lives down the street with Pink.

[Billy Corgan]

Floyd and the Beatles and Bowie, right? That Ken Scott.

[Dale Bozio]

He just finished doing let's Dance with Bowie, okay, that week. He said, here, go to this address right now. Finish the sandwich. He thinks that sandwich. I go, right, right now. He said, yeah. He said, if you have to climb over the fence, he'll be at the pool getting a tan. Like, you know. Frank was always sarcastically, like, incredibly funny beyond anybody else. So make a long story short, I go, terry Warren, he said, look, I'm leaving day after tomorrow. Take my studio. Go get him. I said, let's go. Terry said, now? I said, yeah, let's go right now. We drove right over there, went outside, got in the B210 Datsun and drove right down the street to Ken's house. Pulled up. I said, just wait right here. I get to the go to fence. I see him. He's sitting at the pool. There's a fence. It's like 2ft tall. I can take the boom box. And I climb. I have. Warren gave me the boom box. And I climb over the fence, walk up, and he's sitting down there with the goggles on and he can see me. I go, excuse me. Ken Scott jumps. It's like, what the. What are you doing in here?

[Billy Corgan]

My God, does he know you at all?

[Dale Bozio]

No. Little girl is dressed like a Zulu with a freaking boom box. I go, I gotta play in this. I gotta play this. He goes, play me what? I go, listen, Frank Zappa just sent me over here. Don't get mad, but Frank Zappa sent me over here. He told me to climb over the fence because you'd be getting a pool Platina at the pool. So you gotta hear this record. It's a hot new record. And the day after tomorrow, you can come over to Frank's brand new studio. He's got a Kurtzweil and everything, everything for free. Please come over and make this record demo with us. Please, I was begging you. He looked at me, he looked at me. He took his towel down. He was like. And then this getting me. He stood up, he goes, he put his towel on. He has skippies on, you know. He put his towel. He goes, let's get out of the sun. I would walk over and he goes, hit play. He just, like, it was nice.

[Billy Corgan]

What was the sun.

[Dale Bozio]

It was. I like boys words. Hello, I love you. And walking in la. Okay, he just got through the first song and stopped. He said, who is that? I said, it's Terry Bozio. Brand new, number one. Next, new drummer of the world born Cucurulo. Frank's giving us everything for free. Can I do it? He said, yep, I'll do it. Well, he said, but do me a favor, go out the front door. He took me to the front door, open it, see at the studio, shut the door, drove back to Frank's. Got in the car going, he's doing it, he's doing it. We're in, we're in, we're in. And Terry's going, no, really? I knew you'd do it. I knew it. He was squeezing my shoulders. Warren was always my cheerleader, you know. We were getting bad trouble together, Warren and I. Yeah, Warren and I ruined the band. Warren and Terry Quinn.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, well, we're not to that point yet. Beautiful first record.

[Dale Bozio]

Historic, really great. Yeah, historic, really great. I can't say anything about it, but that's made the world change for me. And Frank said, yep. As soon as he came home from New York and he heard the songs we made, he said, okay, finish the record with Ken. You'll have A record deal. Now go to work. Have a nice day. He wasn't kidding. I've worked my ass off since then.

[Billy Corgan]

That's amazing.

[Dale Bozio]

It's a never ending story.

[Billy Corgan]

So how do you go from, I'm not a singer, I want to be a movie star? Sadly, no, But.

[Dale Bozio]

No, sadly, no, really? No, really. I still watch movies now and think.

[Billy Corgan]

But you turned out to be a very important singer in my estimation.

[Dale Bozio]

I appreciate that. That's really nice. But when you tell that to somebody who wants blue eyes and their eyes.

[Billy Corgan]

Are brown, you still feel that.

[Dale Bozio]

You can't take a feeling away out of your person. No, I get that, you know, we can subdue them, like our family and our mothers. We can subdue them. We're not leaving that.

[Billy Corgan]

When you look back on that period, because obviously it was a great period for you musically. How do you feel about it? Okay, I'm saying it in lieu of what you're saying. I'm not asking you to reminisce.

[Dale Bozio]

I didn't know that then.

[Billy Corgan]

How do you feel about it now?

[Dale Bozio]

I didn't know I was making a song that would last for 40 years.

[Billy Corgan]

Songs?

[Dale Bozio]

Songs, Yeah. I had no idea. I had no idea. I was just going along with the program thinking that the next stage was making a movie.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, but did you think you were a strong songwriter?

[Dale Bozio]

No, I think I'm a poet.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

I think I'm a poet.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

I do. I always thought that. That. I always thought that I. I've been writing like these. These intellectual poems. Not, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

I get it. I know your lyrics enough to know what you're talking.

[Dale Bozio]

What you mean. Yeah, that's what I think. That's what I like about myself. It gives. Gives me.

[Billy Corgan]

But how do you feel about yourself as a singer?

[Dale Bozio]

I don't. I feel so. I don't know what to say there. Why would you ask me that?

[Billy Corgan]

Because I think you're a great singer.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, that's very nice of you. That's very nice of you. I can sing what I've been taught to sing.

[Billy Corgan]

But you were writing those melodies.

[Dale Bozio]

Yes, they're very nice melodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because I think that what I appreciate about you and you don't know this, I'm telling you now.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

We just met, but like a year ago, I found myself listening to you again a lot.

[Dale Bozio]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

I was in the middle of making a new Pumpkins record.

[Dale Bozio]

The melodies, maybe?

[Billy Corgan]

Yes. Something about the melodies and something about the way you sang sort of drew me back in. I mean, I knew the songs. But I found myself kind of going back for something that I could only get from you. Sorry, let me finish.

[Dale Bozio]

But that's very nice. That's very nice of you. I can relate to what you just said. Yeah, I'm there.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Well, you're you. But I'm saying as someone who. So, you know my relationship to you as an artist is in pieces. Right. There's me watching you on television in whatever year it was. You know what I mean? Year 82 or 83. Right?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And you were so ahead of your time in terms of how you presented yourself. You know, there's that. I remember in 82, I'm 14, 15 years old.

[Dale Bozio]

Of course. Of course. It was the shock factor.

[Billy Corgan]

No, no, no. There was something about it.

[Dale Bozio]

That's what we did.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes. But I think it's more valuable than that.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, you're kind.

[Billy Corgan]

I can be.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, you're kind. Yeah, I know that about you. You're very soft spoken. You just. You smooth everything out so politely. You would never let.

[Billy Corgan]

But here's my point, because I. Cause I. Again, I found myself paying a lot of attention to you again, starting about a year ago.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

And even when they asked me who I wanted to be a guest on the show, you were, like, at the top of the list.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, thank you. I'm flattered.

[Billy Corgan]

I hope so.

[Dale Bozio]

I am.

[Billy Corgan]

Because you're great.

[Dale Bozio]

I'm extremely flattered. So, not because I'm great. I'm flattered because you like me.

[Billy Corgan]

We'll work on that. But here's my point.

[Dale Bozio]

You do like me, don't you?

[Billy Corgan]

I think you're fantastic.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay, good.

[Billy Corgan]

I think you're fantastic. You're everything I hoped you would be. But we're still in this. Let's get through this part. So one thing that really struck me, and I remember seeing it because, again, I'm 14, 50 years old now. I think I told you my father was a musician. So when you grow up in a musical world, you look at music differently than people who aren't in a musical world. My father was super critical of musicians. Like when I was a kid and we'd watch tv, my father would be like, he sucks. He's great. He's terrible. Right. So like I said, my father likes Zappa. So Tim Zappa was good, everybody else was bad or whatever. So I have these memories of watching you and when we first met today, you know, you're five feet ish. Right.

[Dale Bozio]

One and three, quarter inch.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless. We'll say five, two.

[Dale Bozio]

For the sake of Posterity, I do on my license. I lie very good.

[Billy Corgan]

Always punk rock. But my point of saying this is I had this memory of you from back then, but now watching the clips, it's like having a memory over here and then seeing it with modern eyes here. And these pieces came together. And the thing I'm after here is, and I think where you're so important in a way that people don't understand your importance was not only did you present a really radical image of femininity and freedom at a time where that really wasn't necessarily the case, now half the world looks like you. I mean, you know that. I mean, you must have noticed I.

[Dale Bozio]

Recognize a little bit here and there.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless. Including some big pop stars, you know, who cribbed from you. Like, I'll take that. And I'll take that. I'll take that.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, everybody has a stylist, babe.

[Billy Corgan]

It's all good. Like, there's only one og. And so you're an OG in this one particular way. But the other thing is, and this is what I'm saying about this memory I have as a young person in a musical family watching you and not totally understanding what I was seeing. And now being 57, and now I understand what I was seeing then. And now I can articulate, and I'm lucky enough to articulate it to you. And that was when you guys played. And I saw you many times on television when I was a kid, I never went to shows. Everything was through the television. And you guys were on TV a lot for this one particular period of time.

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely, yes.

[Billy Corgan]

When you would stand there with your band, you weren't the star and they were your band. You weren't the cute chicky with the boy band. You were in the band. And maybe that came from being in Frank's world. You were an equal. You, Warren and Terry.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Does that make sense to you?

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

A piece of the pie. But that's so valuable, you know what I'm saying? Because even nine, 10 years later, when we had a woman in our band, people would ask her, what's it like to be a woman in a band? There was this kind of idea of like, why would a woman want to be in a rock band? And yet here you are in 1982, not only you in a rock band. Right. One of the greatest drummers in the world. You guys totally kick ass. I would refer anybody to see your performance from the U.S. festival. You guys are so good live, it's shocking.

[Dale Bozio]

That was live.

[Billy Corgan]

That's what I'M saying you guys are so good live, it's shocking how good you are, you know what I'm saying? Your voice, which on record can kind of sound strange because you have such a unique vocal style. You listen to you live, you're that singer. It's not like a studio thing. You are that singer. Like you completely hold your own in this very muscular, physical band. So I'm forever impressed by that part of your talent.

[Dale Bozio]

I have an installed courage from a man's point of view, in a man's world. I was raised by an incredible man, my father that impressed me to be this way. It has all to do with my choices of what I want to do and when I'm going to do it. If I'm going to do it, I'm only going to do it. Yeah, that's right.

[Billy Corgan]

So when you look back at you on stage at that time I was.

[Dale Bozio]

All me doing all me at the moment with what I had to do with the pieces I could put together. Taking apart posters on, having no money to go to the shopping center, having to go to the plastic store and buying a sheet of plastic for A$50 and some tubing, about 56 cents to take home and tie up the poster around me for all of my five dollar budget. Yeah, okay, I was working with my crafts. Yeah, I was not looking to impress anybody.

[Billy Corgan]

But that's what's so beautiful about it.

[Dale Bozio]

But that's what happened and that's what happens in life when you're doing your thing, when you're just doing you. You become so impressive if you do it genuinely. And Frank said to me one day, listen over another some sandwich in the kitchen that was like smashed together. And he said one day those fellas, he pointed to them, they were a stone cold away. Terry and Warren will become extremely jealous of you. You will rise above and you're going to absorb what the man teaches you. And you will have to replace them. Don't you ever forget that this is all about you. It's always going to be all about you. He said, and remember, don't sing anything. You can't sing in front of me. We just went in the studio that day. I went, what? Okay, Frank, he said, remember, Frank is dead and buried. I go to his grave and I say frank, I replace them. I replaced those replacements and I'm replacing the replacements and I'm still singing. Can break me to tears. Because when someone tells you something that you believe, you never forget it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. What part of that did you believe?

[Dale Bozio]

Every word. I See, and I did that. I've did. I've done that. I've gone on and had to leave Terry Bozzio, divorce him, replace him. Replace the greatest musicians that I've ever played with in my life, step over them and keep stepping. Why? Because I'm Dale and I do what I do, and that's what I do. If it makes something or somehow an impression on you, well, lucky you. I'm just living my life.

[Billy Corgan]

A ruthless Pisces.

[Dale Bozio]

It seems that way. But then, you know, we melt like an ice cube.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, well, that's what I mean. You're all.

[Dale Bozio]

I think. I think that's the outside. Like fake Pisces, you know, we're all so big, bold and tough and. Bye, bye, you know, Bye, bye, bye. I love Britney Spears. Right? But with such cream puffs of the whole thing. But it's astounding the courage that you can find.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's when I think of you. Obviously I'm talking to you, but don't you find.

[Dale Bozio]

Is it. What is that like? Because sometimes you can't stop to smell the flowers.

[Billy Corgan]

I think I'll give you an honest answer to an honest question. I think that certain people, Pisces, do seem to have this more so than most. You have an intuitive sense of a destination, no pun intended, that nobody else can understand. They think you're completely insane. You're going the wrong way. That can't possibly work. Don't do it. Don't step over that body. And you're guided by something that is a story that you can't even explain. And here we are. Does that sound accurate?

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It gives me more time to be a little more eccentric, I suppose.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I told you before we started filming that I love your song. Surrender your heart to me. I just think this is such a beautiful song. Maybe it's. I mean, I know your catalog pretty well. It might be your almost sort of. It feels very personal. Does that sound accurate?

[Dale Bozio]

Terry wrote that song about Dale.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, I thought it was the other way around. So what part of you wouldn't surrender your heart to Terry ever? Never, never, never surrendered.

[Dale Bozio]

I never surrender.

[Billy Corgan]

Why do you think that was?

[Dale Bozio]

I told you, love is a big question here.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

Love is a big question. This is all about.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you ever surrender your heart to anybody other than your children?

[Dale Bozio]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Because.

[Dale Bozio]

Can't do it because don't know how.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, that's fair.

[Dale Bozio]

Mm. Can't go that deep. I'm too rejected and denied and too behind the eight ball. I'm the ugly duckling at school. I'm the one no one talks to. I'm the one that everybody.

[Billy Corgan]

You still carry that?

[Dale Bozio]

Uh huh. I'm the one that everybody said, oh, she's.

[Billy Corgan]

So when I tell you how great you are, do you take that in?

[Dale Bozio]

I take that. Scary. I take it like, whoa. It's a shock to me because I renown you so. And it's like, really? How is that possible?

[Billy Corgan]

Because you're amazing.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, that seems. That seems like impossible.

[Billy Corgan]

My favorite artists. There's only one. There's only one you ever.

[Dale Bozio]

That's scary. Yeah, that's what I mean.

[Billy Corgan]

But that's the force of your personality and your talent.

[Dale Bozio]

I mean. Thank you. I love you, you know? I love you. Would you want to make my movie?

[Billy Corgan]

Sure.

[Dale Bozio]

And write the music?

[Billy Corgan]

Let's do it.

[Dale Bozio]

You could write the music.

[Billy Corgan]

Your movie would be amazing. What a movie that would be.

[Dale Bozio]

But the thing is, you see, there's so many things about that little girl Dale, that I think that that's what I made that, that book for is because having my sons of the ripe age of this atomic world of society, that is such a whole nother rainbow for me at this level of my lifestyle. You know, when you get to a different time of age, you sense things differently. Of course, as you said, when you look back of being 14, 15, of course you're going to divulge it rather differently now of all the experiences that you had. But me personally speaking, I would like everyone to have the information here. So they have it from the horse's mouth.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

Because people assume things and they think things that they don't really know the truth.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, besides the sort of selfish desire to meet you was, was that I.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, I'm honored.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you. Was. I feel like your story's not really been told and even if you go looking for your story, it's not really accurate. And I'm not talking about this happened, this happened, this happened, but how important you are.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, you're very kind. See?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, but I'm not being kind now.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay. Well, yeah, you are. I mean, you're still the same person.

[Billy Corgan]

If you were a total sociopath.

[Dale Bozio]

You're the same person I met an hour ago.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. God bless. But. But if you were a total sociopathic, you know, selfish artist like most artists are, I would still think you were great. You know what I'm saying?

[Dale Bozio]

Well, that's.

[Billy Corgan]

But part of the reason I think you're great is because of who you are. So, like, when I see you in 1982, standing on some cold TV set somewhere wearing what you wore, and you have this way. You still have this way of singing, like, with your head kind of cocked up like this.

[Dale Bozio]

I do, yeah. Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

But it's. To me, it's. You know, body language is interesting. Right. And your body language on stage was always one of courage. It wasn't defiance. It wasn't you. It wasn't, look at me, I'm so great. It was, I'm up here. I got my band and I got my song the same.

[Dale Bozio]

I was very proud of them. I was very proud of those musicians.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. But flip the script. You being on stage with those musicians says something about. About their faith in you.

[Dale Bozio]

But that's how I could do it. I get that because I gave them my faith first.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

First, I gave them the praise and the prowess of who they were, and then I gave them Frank.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

I gave them more than love. I gave them a life. When you care about the people that are closest to you, you give them your soul.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

Not a car. Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

So what I could do for them, I did of my passion.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

And I knew by being with them, they would make me better.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

They will teach me.

[Billy Corgan]

So who's done that for you, though, besides your father?

[Dale Bozio]

My father. Frank Zappa, Terry Bozio, and Prince.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

Mm.

[Billy Corgan]

I was listening to the. I know it's not fair to call it the Prince record, but the Paisley park era.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, to me.

[Billy Corgan]

How do you feel about that now, looking at that music?

[Dale Bozio]

I would have liked to brought Prince in.

[Billy Corgan]

So he wasn't.

[Dale Bozio]

He wouldn't. Yeah, he wouldn't. He said, I'm not coming there. I'm not singing anything. Take my engineer, coke, all my guitars, all my stuff. It was all set up. He said, go over there.

[Billy Corgan]

Why do you think he didn't help?

[Dale Bozio]

He wouldn't. I don't know. He wouldn't. He just said, no, Stone Cold. He didn't want to be influenced me. He didn't want to influence me. And I think he. Excuse me. I think he wanted to see if I really could do it. I think he was like, but do.

[Billy Corgan]

You think that's maybe in a way why it didn't work? And I don't mean it's terrible. I mean, it just doesn't work.

[Dale Bozio]

No, the reason him and I. No, he fired me, okay? He quit the record. He stopped the presses. He stopped everything. He wouldn't. I had. I was number two. On Billboard 4 in European.

[Billy Corgan]

You had like a dance hit or something?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, dance hit. And I was supposed to go to Europe, supposed to leave the next day, and instead my father had a heart attack and he was in Boston. So I took a red eye and I left and I went to Boston. I called him from the hospital, and he said, what are you doing? I go, well, my father had a heart attack. I had to come and see him, and I'm in Boston. He goes, no, no, you're leaving tomorrow for this European. So he flipped out. He started screaming at me, and I'm like a payphone. And I said, I can't go. I've got to be here with my father. He's going to die. And I had to sign the paper for him because I was only his next of kin. Blah, blah, blah, blah. He said, you're fired. It's over. How much money do you want? I said. He said, name me a number. I said, 50,000. He said, Tomorrow. And he hung up.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you own that record?

[Dale Bozio]

Not really.

[Billy Corgan]

Who owns that record?

[Dale Bozio]

Paisley Park.

[Billy Corgan]

Because, you know, they got that weird title on Spotify, like the original Lady Gaga or some weird bull title.

[Dale Bozio]

Everybody, you know, does that. That's so rude.

[Billy Corgan]

No, it's very rude.

[Dale Bozio]

I mean, you know, I'm not the original anybody, because first of all, I came before Lady Gaga, so I don't know how I could be the original lady anybody, you know, number one. Okay? So let's get real here, you know, no defiance of anything for anybody. I respect everyone that has the courage to do anything in the music business at any given time of day because it's a real hustle. It's not for the faint of heart. This is a real rock and roll gig of life. You commit yourself to this, you may become famous, you may not become famous, but that's the choice.

[Billy Corgan]

You definitely will go crazy.

[Dale Bozio]

You have to take the choice to commit or not.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, Two things to finish. One is from Spring Session M. That's the name of the record, right? 82.

[Dale Bozio]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

There feels like to me, and I'm saying this as someone who admires you, there seems to be this dissipation of energy. You know what I mean? Like, it's a life means. Means there's a ton of life force in the first record. Second record, A Little Less Life Force.

[Dale Bozio]

Third record, A Little Less Breakdown of the Rock Band.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, understood. By the time we get to the Prince era record, Little Less Life Force. But sitting here, there's no shortage of Life Force. Was it that You're. You're in this.

[Dale Bozio]

You're only limited to what your availabilities are at the given moment in time.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm saying, I'm asking about your part in it. Are you looking around going, I'm in the wrong place, or this is how it goes? And I'm on this boat and I can't get off. Like, explain to me that. Because that's. Let me finish my loose bill.

[Dale Bozio]

I don't know where you're coming from with the, you know, the musicianship and the. Because, you know, times change.

[Billy Corgan]

The first record has this tremendous life force to it. And the music and these great songs, you know, are testament to that force, whether it was your relationship to the boys or whatever, you know, Frank's support. But over time, it seems to get a little bit lost. It's not that it's terrible or not. I mean, there's beautiful music being made. But my sense is something's happening. There's a decline or something being pulled back. Did you feel you were being pulled in different directions? Did you feel like you lost control of something? I'm trying to understand what I hear, because I'm enough of a fan of you to know that if you're all in, that vitality is within the grooves of the music. Am I accurate in my assessment?

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely, yes. You know, I think a lot of things with rock bands, maybe not the Rolling Stones, but other bands, go through changes, emotions, you grow, you look at things differently, you hear things differently. Almost.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. And when you can't unsee what you've seen.

[Dale Bozio]

Right, right. When you're a musician, the music is changing behind you while you're sleeping.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

There's new musicians, there's new songs on the radio.

[Billy Corgan]

There's people ripping you off right behind you.

[Dale Bozio]

They're coming up before you sleeping. You gotta be thinking double time. Then you gotta go talk to the musicians that are telling you, no, no, no, this doesn't go this way. Then you've got a producer that says, squash squish box.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but I'm asking.

[Dale Bozio]

That's how they got that way.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but I'm asking because in my sense, you're all heart.

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. So did you get your heart broken along the way?

[Dale Bozio]

Got my. Got everything broken. Yeah. Everything started going down the drain. No one would listen to me anymore. And I couldn't get my word edgewise. When I came with the songs that I wanted to sing, they said, no, we're not singing those songs. And, no, we're getting electric drums and we're not doing it that way. And we're getting.

[Billy Corgan]

So let me tell you one other thing that you don't. This is between us. But. So when I started focusing on you a year ago, I almost picked up the phone because I wanted to write songs with you because I think you're such a great songwriter.

[Dale Bozio]

Thank you. Well, we'll write them now.

[Billy Corgan]

Let's do that now. But my point is, it's so cool sitting, talking to you because the thing that I identify so strongly in your music is still in front of me. It hasn't gone anywhere. But I also understand that access to that part of you has everything to do with your heart.

[Dale Bozio]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

So at least I got that part right.

[Dale Bozio]

You're a tuning fork.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you. All right, now I gotta tell you my great Terry Bozio story. Pretend.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay. Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you know this story at all? Have you ever heard this story?

[Dale Bozio]

No. No.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

No. No.

[Billy Corgan]

So when Jimmy Chamberlain, the drummer from the Pumpkins, was fired by the band in 1996, well, we needed a new drummer and we had a 90 date arena tour booked, tickets sold. We had to push the dates back. But we have to pick a drummer. Like we. It's like we gotta pick a drummer now. So our manager at the time was Cliff Bernstein, who managed Metallica. And he calls and he says, what do you think about Terry Bozio? And I'm like, holy Terry Bozio. Like, first of all, why would Terry Bozzio wanna be in my band? Let's start there. But I started thinking, well, cause Jimmy Chamberlain, the Pumpkins drummer, he's still the Pumpkins drummer now. Great drummer and also a friend of Terry's at this point. So they know each other and they're both recognized as some of the greatest drummers of all time. So it all kind a cool story, but I'm in a situation where I need a great drummer and the manager calls, hey, what do you think about Terry Boz? I said, okay, I'm willing.

[Dale Bozio]

96.

[Billy Corgan]

96. So Terry comes. We had a rehearsal space at the time we called Pumpkin Land. So Terry comes in and he's late, which is fine. I think he got off a flight or something. But he's late and you know, hey, it's fine. So everybody else would come in. We, I don't. We audition 10 drummers in that period. They would come in, they'd set up their kit, you know what I mean? And you know, you wait 10 minutes, 15 minutes and then you, you play. Terry shows up, say hello, he's got a tech with him. An hour goes by, and we're, like, sitting there like this, and I'm like, what the going on? So somebody who works for me comes in. I go, is he ready? And I go, well, he's still setting up his drums.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh, right, right.

[Billy Corgan]

So I go out there, right, Just to chat and say hi. And he's literally. And I know you know this. So this is like a. This is a drum.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'm watching him, and he's going like this.

[Dale Bozio]

Right?

[Billy Corgan]

And there's 14 drums, right?

[Dale Bozio]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Now.

[Dale Bozio]

Has to be in perfect tune.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't know, Terry.

[Dale Bozio]

You know, every drum is tuned to a note.

[Billy Corgan]

I understand. So I'm not gonna tell him, hey, hurry up, buddy. Hurry it up.

[Dale Bozio]

You know what I mean?

[Billy Corgan]

Clock's running. So we wait another hour. Okay, he's finally ready. Two hours we waited. Okay, he's finally ready.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Now, we had asked each drummer to learn three of our songs. And first song on our second record is a song called Cherub Rock. It's complicated. And, you know. So Terry's over there and, you know, so I say to him, can we. Can we play Cherubrak? And he goes, I didn't really have time to learn the songs, so if you guys could just play. By the way, this is a really complicated song, right? If you guys could just play. I'll kind of play along. Play along, exactly. So my bandmates look at me, like, that's a lot.

[Dale Bozio]

That's hard to. Yeah, that's like.

[Billy Corgan]

By the way, I was the one who said, let's try out Terry Bozie.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay? Right.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm. Now I'm getting the stink ey from my band.

[Dale Bozio]

I know, right? Lots of hands.

[Billy Corgan]

Because my bandmates don't give a who Terry Bozzio is. And the fact that he played with Frank Zappa or in Missing Persons, they don't give two shits, Right, Right. Okay, So I gotta do a little Terry imitation here.

[Dale Bozio]

So Terry. So Terry. Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, it gets better.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

And eventually involves you.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay. Oh, no.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Oh.

[Billy Corgan]

So. So. So we start the song, and we're playing and nothing's happening. He's just, like, listening. And, you know, he does that kind of.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And all of a sudden he goes. And we're still playing, like, the fastest drumming you ever heard in your life, right? We're like, what the is happening?

[Dale Bozio]

What's he doing? Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And he goes. And all of a sudden he goes. He picks up on the groove and he starts that. That groove that he's got and it is the greatest rock groove I've ever heard in my life. The groove is so ridiculous. He sounds like a mixed record playing live in a room. And the band sounds un believable. So I go from, oh my God, it's a disaster. How long does this take? Oh my God, oh my God, this guy is. This is insane. I've never heard my band sound like this.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah, he does that.

[Billy Corgan]

So we do that for three songs, but it's kind of awkward. It's Terry, he hasn't learned. So we get through it and it's kind of that thing like this is pretty tempting, but how do I tell him to stop the 80s Zappa Phils, you know, am I gonna tell Terry Bozio, don't play that fill. Am I gonna get into that?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So now we go into the room to chat. We had a like little kind of eating area. I recently recorded your guys song Destination Unknown.

[Dale Bozio]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Have you ever heard our version of it?

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, thank you.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I say to Terry, do you mind if I play it for you? And he goes, okay.

[Dale Bozio]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

So. And I'm a big fan of. If you're gonna cover a song, you don't do the COVID like the original. What's the point? You're never gonna be better than the original. And I love your song, which is.

[Dale Bozio]

Why I do your cover.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Cause I did it my way, right? So I'm sitting on the couch and I press play. And here's Terry. And I'm here. And Terry sits there like for four minutes and doesn't move a muscle. He listens to me and I'm.

[Dale Bozio]

He's listening to it.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, hold on.

[Dale Bozio]

Right?

[Billy Corgan]

So I'm looking at him kind of. Does he like it? Does he not like it? Because I don't want to offend him. And so the song finishes and he doesn't say anything. And so I go over to the, like, turn off the cassette and I kind of look at him. He just sits there like this. So to this day, I don't know if he liked it. Didn't like it. He never said anything.

[Dale Bozio]

Anything. Nothing.

[Billy Corgan]

Nothing. Not a word.

[Dale Bozio]

Whoa, that's. But, but to this day, that's worse than saying something.

[Billy Corgan]

But to this day I'll be somewhere and somebody will say, oh, I saw Terry said to say hi to you. Aw, always sweet through back channels and.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So whatever happened in that moment.

[Dale Bozio]

Wow, that's wild. That's wild.

[Billy Corgan]

So. So you're making a new record? Yes.

[Dale Bozio]

Well, I Just finished that one. It seemed to go by pretty quick, though. I was like, oh, my God, it's time to make another record. I was thinking of making a Christmas record. I wanted to make a rock and roll Christmas record and sing goddamn Jingle Bells with the rock stars. That's what I wanted to do.

[Billy Corgan]

All right.

[Dale Bozio]

Really, I want to make, like, a happy record. Happy music for everybody.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dale Bozio]

You know, the thing I just wanted to tie up about the Hollywood Lie was I suffered a real traumatic experience. I was going in to make that record completely different with these other songs that I have now stored up. But the night I went to play this concert. I'll wrap it up with you, you know, tape or not. But I wanted to tell you this. Since you told me about what you said to me about your mother. Something happened to me that hurts deep like that. The husband I was married to in the middle, Len, he was a big bodybuilder. His pitch is in there. Big guy, six, seven. And he was from New York, went to school in Boston, Bu Became a bodybuilder, photographer. And he was the first drummer that ever played with Aerosmith in New York City in Westchester, New York. But he did. Couldn't play the drums, so it didn't happen. And he ended up being an entrepreneur. Ends up. We stay friends for our whole lives. I marry him. We married for a few years, and we still stay friends. We separate. His birthday's February 27th, Pisces. We were dear friends forever. I met him when I was 18 years old at the Playboy Club. He took my picture as the Playboy bunny. And I married him into, like, you know, the 37s. Anyway, we stay together all this time, end up coming back. He marries another girl. They break up. Okay. Then this Covid thing happens. And he calls me. He says, yeah, a place for me to live. My son happens to be managing and managing the apartment building. I go, as a matter of fact, I'll help you. Come on, you know it's convenient. And I was knowing he was getting older, his muscles were going down, and everything was just. He was feeling the lack of the power of being a bodybuilder. So I felt pretty bad for him, moved him into the building. Anyway, make a long story short. Brought him over candies. He played Howard Hughes with me there for two years. Didn't let me in. Finally, one night, I go to a concert. And I was supposed to go in the studio and record the next day, play the concert. I come home, it's four in the morning, his lights are out. I Wake up the next day, his girlfriend's calling. Go in his apartment. I think he committed suicide. Wake him up. I get the keys, I go over, find him dead, naked on the floor. He commits suicide. Okay? And he told me the night I was leaving for the concert, he was going to eat a steak, blah, blah, blah. Take all these pills and kill himself. And I'm saying, no, no, no, he can't do that right now. Wait till tomorrow. I'll be back after the concert. Right. So that's what happened. And I had to go in the studio that day, and I, uh. Oh. Oh, God. Oh, God. I'm not going to sing happy songs today. I get to the studio and go, change of plans here. This record is called Hollywood Lie. And we're going to talk about the Great Gatsby, who didn't even exist. But he's a figment in our mind. And don't we do that with everyone? One.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dale Bozio]

We put a figment in our mind. You can be who you are, but you're going to be who I think you are.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

Because I like that better.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

I might think of you in a ballerina outfit later.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

I don't know. But I'm going to think of you. And that's going to be how I feel to cultivate how I love you in my deepest feelings. If you want to fall in love I don't know what it means. That's why I keep saying you to you. Her passion for him was so strong. When I saw what he did, he said what he said he'd do, and he did it. His shiny shoes were right there. His tuxedo was ready to get put on, but he passed out before he could get to the clothes. And it was almost funny. It was almost really. This is life.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dale Bozio]

And I love.

[Billy Corgan]

And that changed the trajectory of. So you're still sitting on all those other songs that you were gonna do.

[Dale Bozio]

Yeah. And so I went in the studio and started writing these songs about. Your life is fading away, you know? You know you're living alone and you have all the world in your hand as a pot of gold. But you kiss it away for what you think you might get but doesn't really happen. And then you wake up and it never was that way anyway. And you forgot to tell yourself that. So that's where I went with that record. And it was an expression that I had to make. Just had to do it. I was so lucky enough that I was let to do that because it was a great release for me. And I think all the songs that I've ever written about, all the things that happened to me are because of something that made such an impression upon me that I want to share my news. I want to share with you I'm a kind giving, sharing, understanding Want to cure the world Wish I could. Wish I could make this all go away and everybody understand how Just go easy and everything will be all right if you just give me a hand Makes it go away Just like that See.

[Billy Corgan]

Can'T follow that up.

[Dale Bozio]

I love you. I love you with all my heart.

[Billy Corgan]

Namaste.

[Dale Bozio]

I love you. I love you. We make a record anyway. Let's do it right.

[Billy Corgan]

I love it.

[Dale Bozio]

A happy record.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, you're have to work on that with me.

[Dale Bozio]

Happy record for the goodness.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm really good in minor keys, you know.

[Dale Bozio]

That's okay. But though. But so am I. I'm great in 11. I can sing anything in 11.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, you did.

[Dale Bozio]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

You guys did do some weird frog.

[Dale Bozio]

I do that. I do do that. I talk sometimes in the len. I can go. Okay, stop. Breathe.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, we're done.

[Dale Bozio]

All right.

[Billy Corgan]

They'll come in and talk to us.

[Dale Bozio]

You're a genius.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, God bless you.

[Dale Bozio]

You know you are and I'm honored to be have had this time with you here today, whether we see each other again.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, we will.