David J (Bauhaus/Love and Rockets) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Episode: David J (Bauhaus/Love and Rockets)
Date: May 13, 2026

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode features a deep, free-flowing conversation between Billy Corgan and David J, legendary bassist of Bauhaus and Love and Rockets. Their discussion explores the artistic journeys and cultural contexts that shaped Bauhaus, the transitions into Love and Rockets, the realities of band dynamics, authenticity in art, and the legacies of their respective musical movements. The episode is rich with insider anecdotes, reflections on creative process, commentary on the evolution of post-punk and goth, and the enduring quest for artistic meaning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Influences and Upbringing

• Postwar England, Northampton Roots (01:20-03:00)
  • David J talks about his working-class upbringing in Northampton, noting its industrial edge but "surrounded by beautiful countryside."
  • His parents owned a small newsagent/tobacco shop, which "did quite well, mainly due to my mum's kind of business acumen" (02:48).
  • Short stint at a "public" (private) school, which was "pretty draconian," formative but harsh.
• Early Musical Awakening (04:10-07:58)
  • The first musical epiphany was reggae: "Desmond Decker, Toots and the Maytales ... [and] Lee Scratch Perry, and that had a big impression on me. So this is like 1970 ... I was, like, 13" (04:23).
  • Bauhaus's dub and reggae-influenced basslines and textures descend from these early exposures.
  • Later, influenced by glam: "What really blew it all apart was Marc Bolan and T. Rex ... it's the only fan club I've ever joined" (07:02).
  • David Bowie followed, "totally captivated" (07:43).

2. Musical Identity & the Origins of Bauhaus

• Formation and Band Chemistry (10:53-15:25)
  • Early collaborations with his brother Kevin (drums) and Daniel Ash (guitar): "He had natural talent for drums ... and he just be playing for hours and hours" (11:54).
  • Intrinsic 'differentness' in playing style: "We just played different from the get-go ... not being rock, not being obvious, not being predictable" (12:44).
• Initial Band Logic: Non-conformity & Minimalism (20:42-21:46)
  • Despite being named after an art movement, "We never discuss it ... I applied [Bauhaus school] to music—everything stripped down, everything is functional" (20:45, 20:58).
• Creative Process (23:36-26:39, 36:14-38:10)
  • "We would often turn up without any ideas ... pick up our instruments and just start playing ... out of the row, something emerges" (23:36).
  • "It's a distillation. Refine, refine. … We're not adding, we're taking away" (37:05).
  • The band always prioritized taking things away, achieving minimal, authentic results: "We just knew what we wanted and ... we were good" (38:09).

3. Band Dynamics and Political Tension

• Bauhaus as a Democracy with Friction (27:34-32:11)
  • The band "never had that kind of attitude" of one-person dominance—it was "a democracy and it's our band, everybody's really important" (28:39).
  • Inevitably, attention would focus on Peter Murphy, the charismatic singer, causing “a kind of separation, us three over here, and him over there” (30:06).
  • Peter’s “tendency to lean towards the paranoid … see things that aren’t necessarily there” sometimes caused problems—but it also fueled the intensity of performances: “we would direct all that frustration … into the music … a kind of exorcism” (32:12).

4. Artistry, Authenticity, and Aesthetics

• Notable Artistic Logic (34:53-39:12)
  • From inception, Bauhaus was “not doing the obvious, and not being rock ... [if] it sounded too straight, then we’d f*** it up on purpose” (35:03, 35:20).
  • “A guitar is not necessarily something that you strum ... you can hit it with a stick … whatever it takes to get the right sound out of the thing” (00:00, 35:40).
  • Their creative ethos was rooted in confidence and authenticity: “Because it’s authentic ... we were so confident. We just knew what we wanted” (38:09, 38:19).
• Reception and Genres: Punk, Post-Punk, Goth (39:22-41:14)
  • “We didn’t mind” the term post-punk; “punk was very influential” after seeing Sex Pistols and The Clash (39:22).
  • The goth label only came later: “It was post punk … that term was around ... punk evolved very quickly and became a form that could be influenced by all sorts of genres” (39:22-41:12).

5. Encounters & Anecdotes

• Iggy Pop Encounter in NYC (43:01-45:41)
  • First day in New York, Iggy Pop “starts singing in front of me ... in his black leather biker’s jacket, baiting Peter: ‘Come on, my love. Bring it’" (44:09-44:28).
• Bowie & The Hunger Movie (58:02-60:21)
  • David J asked Bowie about a musical crib: “I said, it’s off for ‘Low’ ... a new career in a new town. With that, he put his finger to his lips and winked and carried on dancing” (59:35).
• Tributes and Cover Songs (56:08-57:32)
  • On “Ziggy Stardust”: “That was a big part of it. That’s for sure” (56:08).
  • David J celebrates “wearing influences on the sleeve”: “I think it’s really important to be a fan … embrace that and celebrate it and to recognize it” (56:57).

6. The Transition: Bauhaus to Love and Rockets

• Burnout, Breakup, and Schism (64:46-67:43)
  • “It was falling apart in the studio” during the last Bauhaus album; after a massive row, “we made a phone call to say, we’re not doing the TV show. And we’re done.” (65:15, 65:51)
  • “When the three of us were there in the studio, it was so easygoing … as soon as Peter did come, it … caused disruptions” (66:50).
• Love and Rockets' Logic (73:34-76:14)
  • New direction: “We really wanted to be successful, but … psychedelia … that influence [from Bowie etc.] was somewhat oppressed [in Bauhaus] … When Peter was not a part of this new band, that came out big time” (74:14).
  • Harmonizing: “We realized, oh, there’s a blend here. It’s a cool sound and it’s very strong” (77:05).

7. Art & Authenticity Amidst Success

• Commercial Success vs. Artistic Integrity (83:00-85:54)
  • Love and Rockets’ increasing American success (“So Alive” charting high): “it was a gradual ascent ... America was our place” (82:10, 82:34).
  • On reaching mainstream with “So Alive”: “That’s when we knew—this wouldn’t have happened like last year” (83:57).
  • On managing mythology: “We guard it and we curate it and we nurture it ... anything that’s released, and we’re very picky in that regard” (88:01).

8. Longevity, Solo Work, and Compulsion to Create

• Solo Music (91:54-94:00)
  • “It’s just the imperative that comes from wanting to create. And it’s nothing to do with ... I have that [niche] audience in mind … I’m compelled to create all the time” (92:43, 94:00).
• Writing and Legacy (94:49-95:14)
  • On the memoir: "Again, I was compelled to write that book to tell the story. ... I have to tell the story" (95:05).
  • On being a “lifer”: “That’s it ... You’re in it” (95:14).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Bauhaus Ethos:

  “A guitar is not necessarily something that you strum. You know, you can hit it with a stick. Whatever it takes to get the right sound out of the thing.” — David J (00:00)

• On Non-Conformity:

  “Not doing the obvious and not being rock.” — David J (00:14, 35:03)

• On Bauhaus Process:

  “We would often turn up without any ideas at all, and we just—We wouldn't even talk to each other, and we'd just be. We'd pick up our instruments and just start playing...” — David J (23:36)

• On Band Tensions:

  “There was a kind of separation there. It was, you know, us three over here and him over there.” — David J (30:06)

• On Stripping Music Down:

  “We're not adding, we're taking away. ... We think, what can we take away from this? That was pretty key, actually, for Bauhaus.” — David J (37:22)

• On Playing with Iggy Pop Watching:

  “And there down the front is Ziggy Pop in his black leather biker's jacket, baiting Peter: 'Come on, my love. Bring it.'” — David J (44:28)

• On Club Reception:

  “We got to New York and we got in a cab, three of us, and the cab driver recognized us and started singing so Alive. ... That's when we knew—this wouldn't have happened like last year.” — David J (83:57)

• On Tribute & Influence:

  “I think it's really important to be a fan ... embrace that and celebrate it and to recognize it.” — David J (56:57)

• On Artistry:

  “We never felt that we betrayed desire, a quest for authenticity. Yeah, we never did that.” — David J (69:03)

• On Creating for a Small Audience:

  “My audience is ... very niche, like super niche. ... But they're very appreciative and die hard and it's a real listening audience, and they're attuned to nuance and subtlety.” — David J (92:43)

• On Lifelong Commitment:

  “It's always been. Been the case. Yeah ... That's it ... You're in it.” — David J (73:30, 95:14)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 01:20-03:00 – Postwar England and Youth
• 04:10-07:58 – Reggae, Early Musical Influences
• 10:53-13:52 – Early Band Dynamics with Brother Kevin
• 20:42-21:46 – The Ideology Behind "Bauhaus"
• 23:36-26:39 – How Songs Were Written: “Bella Lugosi’s Dead” Example
• 32:12-33:05 – Channeling Tension into Performance
• 35:03-37:22 – Rejecting “Too Straight,” Embracing Devo’s Unconventionality, Minimalism
• 43:01-45:41 – Iggy Pop Encounter in NYC
• 56:08-57:32 – Openly Paying Tribute to Heroes/Bowie
• 64:46-67:43 – The End of Bauhaus: Final Row and Breakup
• 73:34-76:14 – Love and Rockets: Psychedelic & Pop Directions
• 83:51-84:32 – “So Alive” Makes It Big in America
• 88:01-88:42 – Managing the Mythology
• 91:54-94:00 – The Drive for Solo Work
• 95:29-95:51 – Being a “Lifer” in Music

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is intimate, candid, occasionally self-effacing, and full of mutual respect. Billy Corgan is both a fan and peer, and David J is generous, reflective, and witty—never shying from both the high-minded and the practical realities of a lifetime in art and music. There's a strong undercurrent of artistic authenticity, lifelong dedication, and a grateful (if sometimes amused) look back at both the triumphs and tensions of a legendary career.

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For fans of post-punk, alternative, and fearless artistic conversation, this episode is a masterclass in artistic evolution, band myth-making, and enduring creative courage.

Transcript

[David J]

A guitar is not necessarily something that you strum. You know, you can hit it with a stick. Whatever it takes to get the right sound out of the thing.

[Billy Corgan]

To fanboy for a second. To me, Bauhaus is one of the greatest bands ever.

[David J]

But a big thing for us was not doing the obvious and not being rock.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm always impressed by how confident musical life has been to let things be simple or imperfect or just be what they are.

[David J]

When we started, I mean, we got a lot of resistance and we really relished kicking against that.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you guys have an intellectual kind of conversation at the beginning? You are named for an art movement. Yeah, no, I love it. David, nice to see you. Thank you for being here today. You honor me with your presence.

[David J]

Thank you, Billy. Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

Where can we begin? Okay. I'm fascinated because of the music that came out of the UK in the 60s, 70s, 80s, this kind of post war gloom. You weren't necessarily born right after the war, but you were born in 57. What was the environment that you grew up in? You know, if you want to just kind of give me a postcard view of it.

[David J]

Yeah. Well, I come from a town called Northampton. It's right in the middle. Middle of England. It's the Midlands. It's the center, furthest place from the sea in England, actually. And it's a small market town. The industry is making shoes, boots and shoes.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

So there's factories for that and there's a brewery there, the Carlsberg brewery. And there's a town center, market square. It was a pretty rough place growing up there.

[Billy Corgan]

Kind of industrial, the typical industrial kind of.

[David J]

It had an element of that. Yeah. Very working class. Just really just a kind of hard place and pretty tough and rough and ready. Surrounded by beautiful countryside which was. You had to escape, you know, go into the countryside, which was near.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

But the set, the town center was very, very working class and it was a rough place and we got a lot of stick. When I first formed Bauhaus with the

[Billy Corgan]

other guys, yeah, I had a feeling forming a heart band.

[David J]

Yeah. We were very much outsiders, I bet, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

What did your parents do?

[David J]

My parents were. They had a news agent and tobacco in the shop.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

Little shop on the corner. And that did quite well, that shop. Mainly due to my mum's kind of business acumen. And they built that up quite well. And so I. As a result of that, my brother and I, we went to a public school for two years, which in England, a public school is the opposite to here. It's Like a private school.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah.

[David J]

So. And that was quite formative in a

[Billy Corgan]

way, I was going to say.

[David J]

Yeah, differently. Like, the. The level of education was a lot higher.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

But it was pretty draconian in its. It was like, you know, Tom Brown's school days to a degree. Corporal punishment and all that.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah, okay.

[David J]

And that was another kind of tough place. So only lasted two years and then went back to a. Just what they called a secondary modern school, Just a regular school. And I found that I was like. I was two years ahead of everybody.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, I see.

[David J]

But soon slipped back because I wanted to hang out with the cool kids, as you do. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So every musician has their apocryphal. You know, the moment when the music sort of flashed in their brain. Like, I don't want to do that. What was your sort of.

[David J]

That would be. Well, the very first thing was reggae,

[Billy Corgan]

which has always been present in your music.

[David J]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Just kind of dub. Dub feel.

[David J]

Yeah. But I'm talking about, like, prior to dub.

[Billy Corgan]

Are we talking about Desmond Decker?

[David J]

Yeah, exactly. Desmond Decker, Toots and the Maytales, things like that. And a lot of the early records that were produced by Lee Scratch Perry, and that had a big impression on me. So this is like 1970.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

So I was like, 13.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

My mates and I, we used to sneak into the skinhead disco. We would. We were too young to get in, but we would sneak in. And that's where. The first place where I heard music really loud in the dark and in the edgy company of the skins, you know? Yeah. Who would be quite amused by us nippers. And they would, like, ply us with beer and get us drunk.

[Billy Corgan]

Is this like nascent punk times or.

[David J]

No, because it was.

[Billy Corgan]

What were the skinheads listening to?

[David J]

To reggae exclusively.

[Billy Corgan]

Really? Oh, I didn't know.

[David J]

That's all they play there.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

This part of English culture is kind of lost to the Americans, you know.

[David J]

Yeah. And the reason that there was a lot of that music in England was because of the mass immigration from the West Indies and Jamaica.

[Billy Corgan]

Basically. Colonialism. Right.

[David J]

Well.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, weren't they colonies at some point?

[David J]

Yeah, but there was a. It was the other way, you know, and. And those people coming in.

[Billy Corgan]

No, I. I'm not saying. But it was the connection of the cultures through colonialism that sort of, to a degree, sets it. Emotion.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Again, this is my American tense.

[David J]

Yeah. And they were kind of. The natives were kind of escaping that to go back to the source of the imperialism. But they set up their own Culture there in England. And it was very prevalent and made a big impression musically.

[Billy Corgan]

What was the attraction to the skinheads, if you remember? Like, did they like that? It was. Was it sitting as more pure? Was it. What was their cause? The skinheads tend to have some kind of socio political logic to what they're into.

[David J]

Yeah, I think it was an identification with the archetype of the rude boy.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

And the clothes. They like the clothes. And that was influential on the dress sense of the skinheads. It then morphed into the suede heads. And I was an early. I was a suede head because I never got that skinhead haircut. So when they all started to grow out their hair, you know, it was recognized that I was. I was already there.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, it's fascinating too, because I know you had your dips into Motown, but like basically Motown and Stax had such an influence on reggae. So going back through what you were influenced by, it's like an interesting loop there.

[David J]

Yeah, yeah. So that was the first music that made a big impression on me. And then shortly after that, I mean, what really blew it all apart was Mark Bullen and T. Rex. Yeah. So this is like 71, 72. And I was totally captivated by all that I joined. There's the only fan club I've ever joined was a T. Rex fan club.

[Billy Corgan]

What did you get for joining the fan?

[David J]

Well, I would wait with baited breath for my monthly package that would come through a newsletter. A photo of Mark, you know, with a printed. Did you say that signature? No, I wish.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah.

[David J]

Occasionally a flexi discovery, which is quite a treat. And I think they go for big bucks now, I bet. But yeah, I was a paid up member. And then again shortly after that, Bowie, of course.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, well, David Bowie was quite fascinated with Mark Bolan too. He said, I'll take some of that.

[David J]

Yeah, sure.

[Billy Corgan]

As you know, not everybody wants to play the bass. It tends to be the redheaded stepchild of musicians. So what was it about the bass? Was it. Was it the dub reggae part of it all?

[David J]

Well, this is prior to dub, but it was certainly the reggae. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

And I identified that sound and that instrument as being very integral to the music that I loved. And nobody and nobody else wanted to play the bass. You know, my first band I was in at school, there were five league guitarists, you know, and then it was. And I was. I was one of them aspiring, you know, and failing. And then it was suggested by one of us that, well, well, somebody has to be the bass player. And I just stepped forward. Yeah. You know, maybe all the other guys stepped back, but no, I always gravitated to it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Because I, I love the bass, but you know, to. As an 18 year old guitar player, I wanted nothing to do with the bass, you know.

[David J]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

Just the guitar, you know.

[David J]

Yeah, of course, certain types.

[Billy Corgan]

Tony Visconti was the. Wasn't he the T. Rex bassist? Essentially.

[David J]

Well, he played on some of the records. Bill Curry.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

Regular guy. But I mean, Tony Visconti, yes. Very good bass player.

[Billy Corgan]

But when you talk about the reggae influence on your playing, it's like suddenly. Because when I first heard you playing, I couldn't understand where it was coming from. Cause I only saw it within the guise of what we would now call alternative music.

[David J]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, where it's like, you think of like Steve Sevart or something, it's very like aggressive and you know, maybe playing higher hooky.

[David J]

Yeah, sure.

[Billy Corgan]

But you were coming from this totally other quadrant of logic.

[David J]

Uh, yeah. Although I did have elements of what you're talking about as well.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, no, but I'm saying that part of your playing was a mystery to me.

[David J]

Right, yes. And that is coming from dubbed.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Cause I mean, basically. Well, a key component of Bella the Ghost is Dead is it's got a dub.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Factor there.

[Billy Corgan]

It makes total sense when you put

[David J]

it in that frame with the echo as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, we were all into reggae, especially myself and Daniel, we were very much into dub. So. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

That also explains sort of some of the Love and Rocket stuff even.

[David J]

Yeah, it's always been there. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Billy Corgan]

So I, I'm not asking you to repeat the origin story of the band, but. But I'm curious, you know, having a musical brother, you know the, you know and you know, the famous brother pairings, the Kinks and the Gallaghers and stuff like that. Was it, was it always the intention you guys were going to work together or was it. Did that sort of.

[David J]

My brother and I. Yeah. Well how. I. I'll tell you how that started. And I told this story to Tony Visconti, mentioning him.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, very good.

[David J]

And he loved it. So the first time I ever recorded anything and that was on a reel to reel tape recorder that belonged to my parents was. Cause I had the T Rex singles. So we would play those sort of quite low volume and I would sing over the Top and Wall Ball in an attempt to sound a bit like Mark Bolan. And Kevin would play. He would be Mickey Finn and he would be playing congas well, he upturned flower pots, literally, as his congers, in lieu of conkers. And we would make these. God, I wish I had those recordings,

[Billy Corgan]

you know, Record store day, you know, in this day and age. It's a release.

[David J]

Yeah. So that was the start of it, really.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And then we were. And then Kevin, he had a natural talent for drums.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And he got a kit, pretty basic kit, you know, but he was just very, very dedicated. He'd just be playing for hours and hours, much to the chagrin of the neighbors. Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It's not a fair question asked, but I wonder if there's anything to it. Both you and your brother have very asymmetrical approaches to your instruments. And it seems to me that given the breadth of your work over so many years, like some alternative people, they want to be alternative, so they play alternative or weird. But you guys just played different from the get go. Was that something that was intrinsic, you think it's in the family. Was it there an influence or was it just the way it was? Does it make sense? The way I was thinking?

[David J]

Just the way it was really.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, like some people think like, anti. You know, like some post punk people are like, they were anti. Something like, I'm not going to play it like this. I'm going to play it like that. Because I remember the first time I really paid attention to your brother as a drummer. I remember thinking, he plays. So he. He always plays cool stuff. And he's not trying to be flash or.

[David J]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

He always plays, like, just cool stuff on the songs. He obviously can play drums. It's not like a. He lacks skill.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But it's not. Not everybody think, you know, most drummers want to show off.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Most of the arguments with drummers are like, you need to calm it down.

[David J]

He's the opposite. And he was schooled by a jazz guy.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

So he has that. That was his. Like, he took lessons from his jazz guy, Keith Cumberpatch and Good name. Yeah. And I mean, if you notice, Kevin holds the sticks that.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, he did traditional. Yeah.

[David J]

Style. And he's just very tasteful and.

[Billy Corgan]

But I would say that about your playing too. You know what I mean? It's like, it's just interesting that it's sort of in the family, but I don't know if that's a fair way to put it.

[David J]

I think also Kevin and I influenced each other playing together. You know, we listen intently to each other and what we were playing and respond accordingly.

[Billy Corgan]

I see.

[David J]

Yeah. So there's. There Is that sort of nuance? Yeah. So that is a family thing, I suppose.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. So I recently came across this clip. It's like maybe from one of your earliest gigs, a video. I'm sure you probably saw it at some point, but you guys are playing. I mean, you sound like Bauhaus already. You know what I mean? It's like. And it's pretty early in the process, I think.

[David J]

You formed the pub.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, it's like a grainy video.

[David J]

Yeah, I think. Was it the Racehorse Pub?

[Billy Corgan]

You know, it's kind of from the side, looking up.

[David J]

I think it was the Romany Pub. I think that was. Yeah, 1979. That was one of our very first gigs. But.

[Billy Corgan]

But it's wild to me because you sound. You already sound like the band. Like. Yeah, like if you heard my band early on, we don't sound like the band later, you know?

[David J]

Right, right, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Was that an instant. An instant communication thing?

[David J]

It was. I was the last to join the band because prior to that I had been in other bands with Daniel, but I would kind of called the shots to a degree. And I knew that he wanted to call the shots and he wanted this, His. This band to be kind of like his band. Not that he's domineering in that way, but he didn't want me involved because he didn't want my strong influence. And I totally understood that.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry to interrupt. What was his musical vision? Say, pre Bau Huston.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So since you knew him, who did he want to be or what did he want it to be?

[David J]

Just very stripped down, nothing superfluous, nothing unnecessary. Honed, like razor sharp, just simple, direct. And I love all of that minimalism, you know, but this is 1978 and I'd committed to go to Germany to play on American air bases with a funk disco band. And it's quite good money and like a regular gig. And you. You live out there. So I'd learned like 60 of these funk disco tracks on the bass. And this was a couple of days before I was due to go to Hamburg and Daniel knocked on my door and asked me to join the band. Now, just prior to that, he'd asked if I would come down to their rehearsal room and just give my opinion, especially of the singer. Because Daniel, he. He wasn't entirely sure about the singer. I don't know why he wasn't sure. Mainly, I suppose, because Peter had never sung before, not on the stage. You know, he. He was working in a printer's factory and it was. He was Daniel's best Mate at school and he looked great. And that's the main reason that Daniel,

[Billy Corgan]

he's such an incredible voice.

[David J]

It's such a. I know.

[Billy Corgan]

He could have been the worst singer in the world.

[David J]

I know. And he could have got away with it, but. So I go down there to check him out and I'm just completely blown away by this kid, you know. And then Daniel, at the end of it, he sidles up to me and says, what do you think? I said, daniel, he's solid gold. Come on. He's like so charismatic and he's got a great voice.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

So yeah, I was really impressed. And I like also the music and it was that kind of honed, simple minimalism. And I so wanted to be a part of it, Billy, but I couldn't say anything, you know, it's like not fair enough. Yeah, but he came around and I'm so glad he did.

[Billy Corgan]

Daniel, how much longer after you saw them? Sort of. That's what's called triage.

[David J]

About two weeks. Okay, so I.

[Billy Corgan]

Isn't it interrupt. But interesting because I have moments like that where it's like your life could have gone a totally different direction if it wasn't for that thing happening.

[David J]

Oh, absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

That's where it feels faded to me. You know when you say that, it's like that's the stars align. You're like, because your brother's already playing.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You seem like a no brainer now in hindsight, but at the time it wasn't.

[David J]

Yeah, yeah, it's very true.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, your brother could have been like, no, I don't want my brother in the band. And that would have been the end of it, right?

[David J]

Yeah, could have been. But I think it's interesting as well in that all that sort of homeschooling that I did with the funk and the disco, it came out and it comes out into Bauhaus, but in a kind of. I call it Twisted disco. Yeah, it comes out, but it's, you know, there's some disco bass lines there, some real funk bass lines.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, things.

[David J]

Things like Kick in the eye, in Fear, Fear Dancing. It's there, you know, But I think it's only there because I did that intensive, you know, session.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, to fanboy for a second. To me, Bauhaus is one of the greatest bands ever. So that's easy for me to say. And what makes it so interesting to me in hindsight is like all the great bands, there's something about the amalgam of the influences and the personalities. It just works. It Shouldn't. Yeah, it shouldn't, but it does. And I think it's easy now, in hindsight, to recognize that. So bear with me. It's a little long winded, but. But when I 2001, I'm. I'm living in New York, and. And. And I knew the guys from New Order a little bit. I. I met Hooky even before the Pumpkins first album, so I knew him a little bit. And I get this call at home, and they're asking me to come to England because they're reforming New Order and they're making a record, and they want me to be on the record, which was curious to me why. But I did go. So that begins my. My maturation process of getting to know New Order, the. The people, the band. Now, as a New Order fan, I'd always completely overly intellectualized who they were, why they were, why they did what they did.

[David J]

And.

[Billy Corgan]

And when I got around them, I realized I was completely wrong. They're completely intuitive creatures. It's not to say they lack intelligence. They're actually very bright guys, all of them. But I had always figured there was like, they would sit around and talk about Kierkegaard or some, and then do the songs. And there's none of that with them. Mostly it was like, we. You know, I'd say, how did you guys work?

[David J]

How.

[Billy Corgan]

We just do cocaine for three days. Of course, they call it Charlie. We'll do Charlie for three days. And whatever came out, that's what came out. And I'm thinking, like, I mean, you're not talking about Dada. You know what I mean? It's like, I had. And I think I did the same thing with you guys. So the setup on the Question is, did you guys have an intellectual kind of conversation at the beginning? You are named for an art movement.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

No, I love it.

[David J]

No, we never discuss it.

[Billy Corgan]

That makes it. To me. That makes it even more brilliant because whatever came out of it had such an aesthetic underpinning. And I'm not saying it was just the visuals and the name. Yeah, it's in the music.

[David J]

Yeah. With the name Bauhaus. See, I. I came up with that and why I came up with that great name. Yeah, I applied it to the original school in Weimar and their ideology. And that was about, you know, everything stripped down. Everything is functional. It's the. Functional as the art and streamlined. And I just thought, this is kind of what we're doing in music, so it. It resonates, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

So you're the intellectual overlay well, everybody,

[David J]

you know, has a leaning in that area to a degree. I came up with the name having been to art school. Danny was an art school as well, so was my brother, and Peter nearly went to art school. So, yeah, we're all, you know, of that.

[Billy Corgan]

I just find it fascinating because there's such a depth in the aesthetics of Bauhaus's musical output, and it's varied, and obviously there's a ton of influences. But it blows my mind that when I started listening to you guys when I was 17, 18, that there was no. Like, you guys didn't sit around and talk about, I don't know, Dali or something. You know, it just blows my mind because I got that out of the music.

[David J]

We would sit around and talk about Dali and Dada, but, you know what I'm saying? We wouldn't apply it to the music. We never talked about the music, only after we'd done it, and it was whether it was any good or not.

[Billy Corgan]

So give me a. Give me a. You can be specific or general. How does the band work in its prime? Like, somebody comes in, I got an idea, and everybody just does what they want to do. Like, how did that actually function from writing to recording? Because, sorry, more bloviating here. But what strikes me, and again, I've been listening since 84, what strikes me is there's such variance in production approach. And, you know, of course you guys get the moniker of the goth thing, but there's humor, there's unexpected things. Your B sides are some of the coolest B sides ever, because they're just like. Sounds like you guys are just having a laugh. Like, the band didn't take itself too seriously. At least that was my impression.

[David J]

No, it's true. So sometimes we did.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, but. But I'm. But we have levity when people try to tell me my music's depressing. It's like I'm in a band called the Smashing Pun. It's. How depressing can it be? Right? It's a joke. Right?

[David J]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

So what I. My point is, is just walk me through as a fan, me being the fan. Walk me through, you know, a prototypical. Somebody shows up with an idea, and here's how it ends up on the record. Like, I really want to know. The. The fascination for me as a fan is how did it work politically?

[David J]

Like, yeah, okay, we would. As I say, we did not discuss it, and we would often turn up without any ideas at all, and we just. We wouldn't even talk to each other, and we'd Just be. We'd pick up our instruments and just start playing with Bella. I mean, I'd written those lyrics the day before, and that's all we had. And I handed that a sheet of those lyrics to Peter. And then this is a good example, actually, to illustrate what I'm. I'm talking about. Because then we all just started making this row, you know, and. And out of the row, something emerges. It's sort of out of the fog. And what emerged that time was Daniel. The sounds that Daniel was making. And those chords, that descending chord which he. Chord sequence that he actually got from Gary Glitter.

[Billy Corgan]

Rock and Bolt.

[David J]

Yeah, that was. Cause I asked him about it afterwards, and that was what was in his head. But it kind of mutated and became weird. And then he added the echo. And then Kevin plays, of all things boss nova. Because that was something that he'd learned from his jazz teacher. You know, he only knew two rhythms, and that was one. So he started playing that, and it fits so perfectly. And then when we added the echo to it, it becomes something other. It becomes, you know, bossa nova in dub. And then I just. I listened and I heard that descending bass line and I played it. It's not just single notes. It's actually octaves. And it all just gelled together. And it was a shivery moment when that all happened together. And then Peter starts to intone those lyrics pretty much as you hear it on the record.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[David J]

And we just knew we had something magic.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so take Me in the studio. Cause that was your first single. So continue. Example. So are you guys the type of band, like, you do what you do, I'll do what I do, and everybody kind of leaves each other alone, or is there everybody got an opinion?

[David J]

Everybody's certainly got an opinion. And it's open to anybody doing anything. And we don't have to stick to our given instruments. You know, we can do whatever, just suggest the idea or try it, you know, see if it works. As we went on, it became a bit more structured in that we would bring ideas of. For songs to the band. Sometimes like something that's half written with the chords and the lyrics and everything. Or sometimes somebody, Daniel comes in, he's got some. A chord progression, and I've got some lyrics, or Peter's got some lyrics, and we just throw it all together. And quite often it worked.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Very spontaneous.

[Billy Corgan]

It feels that way, very instantaneous. That's why I think it's fascinating for me, because if you're saying we didn't sit around and Talk about how to do it. We just did it. And then the results are so strong. There's such a. Must have been a strong intuitive sense that we're headed the right direction collectively.

[David J]

Yeah, very much so.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you ever look back and sort of. I don't know. I'm not talking about it in a sentimental frame, but, like, I guess what. The word I'm looking for is magic. Sometimes it's like stuff just kind of happens. It's quicksilver.

[David J]

Absolutely. That. Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Yeah. And there was a particular chemistry with that band.

[Billy Corgan]

That's why I say, well, you guys are one of the great bands. Because there's something about the four communications that really holds very strongly across all the work.

[David J]

Yeah. And there was also part and parcel of. It was a personal friction.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. But I'm not a gossip guy, but give me the sense of the politics of the friction maybe is a better way to ask the question. Like, in my band, this might shock people. In my band, I actually wanted a democracy.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I just figured out very quickly that that was not gonna work. Part of that was I was writing most of the songs, so at some point you just start. Start to assert power because it's your songs. Yeah, but I wanted to be challenged. I wanted people to come in with a better song than me. I literally would beg my mates to write stuff. They just weren't interested or it wasn't part of their sort of DNA.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I never had to necessarily live in that type of political atmosphere. But, you know, every. Every band, you know, to make you laugh, it's obvious to me, listening to the band. Yes. That it. As far as Heath saw it, it was Chris Squire's band because the bass is loud and he's basically kind of running the shop on the musical side of the equation. Now, if you ask John Anderson, who I've met. Lovely guy. He probably thought it was his band with Chris Squire. But for me, from. From having been in bands. We've been in bands. I look and I go, no, Chris Squire thought it was his band. Does it make sense the way I'm asking?

[David J]

Yeah, I understand. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'm not saying who was Bauhaus's band, but I'm saying how did it work politically when you had friction?

[David J]

Yeah. We never had that kind of attitude. We all had the attitude that it is a democracy and it's our band.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

And everybody's really important.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

You know,

[Billy Corgan]

was there ever a moment where it's like they. They were like, but you sure are brothers, you know, did you get that? No, because in my band, you know, James and Darcy were a couple.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So sometimes when we get into political stuff, they would vote as a block.

[David J]

No, that wasn't the case at all.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Sorry I keep interrupting, but I'm really curious on how the band worked politically because. Yeah.

[David J]

I mean, it's complicated. Yeah. Well, for start, we had the old thing of, you know, the. The singer is singled out.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

You know, and people just. Like when the press came in to the picture, they just want to talk to him.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

You know, and it rubbed us up the wrong way. And, you know, you just sort of. You harbor this kind of. It's. You begrudge it to a degree. And then the other side of that is, you know, Pete, Peter kind of enjoyed that. That being in the limelight, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And did not shy away from it. Fair enough. But it weren't a. It went a bit far, you know, so it. There's that. It's a very common story.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

With bands, you know, and there was a kind of separation there. It was, you know, us three over here and him over there.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you feel, looking back now, I mean, I don't know where everybody is at the moment, but looking back now, do you have more empathy for that or do you see it as kind of annoying?

[David J]

I have more understanding of it. Yeah. In a way, there's empathy

[Billy Corgan]

because I. The way I look at it, because I try not to personalize, because sometimes I'll see these types of things happen in other artists, and I try not to project my own feelings. I just try to try to think that must have been unique. Like, for example, being around Nirvana circa 92, suddenly was all about one guy I knew behind the scenes. It's not really how it operated, and I knew everybody a little bit, but you could see that the. The magnetism of the moment sort of starts to pull people in a different direction.

[David J]

Sure. Yeah. That's an extreme example there, the one you just mentioned.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure. But I just use it to illustrate the example that it's like history has a way of picking certain people.

[David J]

Yeah. Yeah. And also, I mean, I have to say, you know, Peter is not the easiest person to work with.

[Billy Corgan]

Do tell.

[David J]

He's brilliant. But, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Could you. Can you quantify that a bit in a. In an. In a. In a. Like a working musician way? What. What makes him difficult?

[David J]

God, again, that's complex.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, I knew him. I know him just a little bit because we spent a little time together. Obviously a very strong personality. Yeah, yeah.

[David J]

It sort of has a tendency to lean towards the paranoid a bit, you know, and see things that aren't necessarily there and prejudice is not there and take it personally and

[Billy Corgan]

it.

[David J]

Cause that causes a lot of problems and it's something that isn't even talked about until it's resulted in some fracas. Something very undesirable. Yeah, Just a big personality clash. But you see, how we would work this out is that we would go on stage and we would direct all that frustration on both sides into the music and the performance. And it would be a kind of exorcism. And it'd be very extreme and very intense. And we'd come off the stage and we'd be best mates again. Until the next gig or the bus ride to the gig where somebody says something inappropriate and then it all starts again.

[Billy Corgan]

First time I heard you guys, I was dating this woman, and she was staying at somebody's apartment or something, and I'd spent the night. So imagine I've had a bit of a long night with this person and. And she gets up and she pops a cassette in and. And the song she's playing is terror. Couple Care to Care. Couple Kill. Colonel. That's right. Say that five times fast. And I have. And I still have a holographic memory of being in this foreign apartment. And I'm thinking, what is she playing and why is it so out of tune? I grew up with a musician father, you know, And I was already playing music a bit, and I just remember thinking, why. Why would somebody want to listen to this music? You know, I had like a. Like an almost allergic reaction to it and severe. Like, almost like. And I didn't think it was terrible. I was just like, why would anyone want to listen to this? And I swear to God, the next day I woke up and I was like, I want to listen to that again. And I was in. I literally went from. And 24 hours later, I was like, I need to listen to this band again. And then I was like, every. Every song, every album?

[David J]

Yeah. Well, we would lean into the eternal.

[Billy Corgan]

But isn't it. I don't know if that's. I'm almost asking myself the question, but I find it fascinating that. That it hit me so sideways that I couldn't let it go.

[David J]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

I had no. I had no means by which to process it because I. I had a musician father was a very good musician. So in his world, it would have been like, well, why is the guitar out of tune? Or why is the bass player not really playing a rhythm.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know. You know, what. What is happening? What is. What is this arrangement?

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, and all that stuff.

[David J]

Yeah. Well, the big thing for us was not doing the obvious and not. Not being rock.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And not being predictable and just sort of cookie cutter to go against the grain of that. If we came up with something that was.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Sounded too. It sounded too. We'd say too straight.

[Billy Corgan]

Too straight.

[David J]

Then we'd it up.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

On purpose. We really like Devo and we like their approach to music in general. Kind of early Devo.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Yeah. And just. And just looking at instruments in a very conventional way. I mean, Daniel's always been brilliant at that.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

You know, a guitar is not necessarily something that you. You strum. You know, you can hit it with a. With a stick.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Whatever it takes to get the right sound out of the thing.

[Billy Corgan]

It's probably an unfair question, but is there an intuitive sense or an intellectual sense where you go, oh, this is too straight? Like, how do you. How do you come to that decision? Because. Because listening to your music, you know, over this long period of time, you. You've again and again and again chosen the unconventional path.

[David J]

It just becomes glaringly apparent. And then we just. We would immediately act to. To rectify that situation.

[Billy Corgan]

But is it. I. Bad analogy. But in my mind, sometimes when I'm trying to do deconstructionist music, I call it Jenga, I'm trying to remove pieces until it. Like, if you know anything about what's. What is the thing. Homeopathy. You know the concept of homeopathy where you take something and you cut it so many times that if you actually scientifically measured. The germ is not even in. Not even scientifically, but somehow it retains. In essence, you take something which is supposed to be inert and you get the benefit effect of your body recognizing it as an allergen.

[David J]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

So it's like removing musical components to it. It's like almost like a skeleton of the original idea. It retains some imprint of the original inspiration, but you've somehow mangled it or twisted into something unfamiliar.

[David J]

A distillation. Okay, yeah. Refine, refine.

[Billy Corgan]

But is that. I'm asking for a process. Is there a process that you have or is just a felt process?

[David J]

It is felt, but it is that process of taking away. So it's kind of like sculpture in a way. We're not adding. We're taken away.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And then what is like, quite often in studio, we'd be hearing a track back and we'd Think we wouldn't think. What can we add to this? We think. What can we take away from this? Yeah, that was pretty key, actually, for Bauhaus.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah. It strikes me in a lot of your work, there's a minimalism, and I think that's not the right word. But maybe what I'm after is I'm always impressed by how confident your musical life has been to let things be simple or imperfect or just be what they are. Does it make sense? And that's not a slight to say imperfect. It's like. It doesn't sound like somebody took 45 takes to get the vocal just right. They just. They sang it and that's the take. You know what I mean?

[David J]

Yeah. Because it's authentic.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so that's what I'm after.

[David J]

Like, authentic.

[Billy Corgan]

Where did you get that confidence? Because most young musicians don't have that kind of confidence.

[David J]

We were so confident. Yeah, We. We just knew what we wanted and we. We. We knew that we were good.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I found this quote from Andy Gill, who was, I think, at the time, an NME columnist. He called you guys a hip Black Sabbath.

[David J]

Oh, take that.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. It's kind of a compliment, really, to me.

[David J]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Obviously, as we sit here in 2026, Goth has become kind of its own phenomenon. Fashion. There's goth bands aplenty.

[David J]

Oh, pervasive.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Of course they did they call it goth back then, was their word.

[David J]

No, there was no.

[Billy Corgan]

So just sitting here now, I mean, do you. These kind of early days of what became, you know, an idiomatic thing, how do you reflect on it now? To me, as a fan, you guys are way more than goth. But that's sort of what. How, you know, the lazy writer's just gonna call you guys a guy.

[David J]

Yeah, well, it was post punk, and that term was around. And we didn't mind that at all. And it was. I mean, punk was very influential. That was. That was. You met early on in this interview you asked about, you know, those moments. Yeah, one of those moments, big time for me, was seeing the Sex Pistols and the Clash at the Hundred Club in 1976 with my brother, and being in that audience, saying to Kevin, we gotta. This is. This is the way. And we formed a punk band there and then played like two weeks later. And Daniel was into that whole thing as well. He almost joined that band, but that's another story. But that punk evolved very quickly and it became a form that could be influenced by all sorts of genres and all sorts of influences. And I think that was A really great period for music like 1978. 79 bands like the pop group you mentioned, Andy Gill, the other Andy Gill in Gang of Four. Bands in the States like Perubu. Just a very exciting kind of expansive music that was reaching for the stars, you know, There was not the. There was no limitations imposed on it that had to. It was necessary for limitations to be imposed when punk was happening, because it was like ground zero. Everything had to be burnt down and then reconstructed in a very simple way. Okay, we've established this now. Now we can expand on it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

You know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Even, like, thinking of, like, even Gary Newman, who kind of took some aspect of the Bowie thing and kind of blew it out the other side.

[David J]

Yeah. And again with. With Gary, it's very streamlined, very minimal.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, There's. There's a. There's a beauty there. I didn't know you guys had toured America in 1980. You know, that strikes me. Yeah. That must have been Chicago. I saw that. I saw that.

[David J]

Yeah. Wax tracks.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you guys were beloved in Chicago. I think that's the atmosphere that I first encountered you in. It wasn't like some girl had a tape and I listened to you. Like, once I was on to you, me, suddenly there were Bauhaus fans everywhere that I knew in the world that I was inhabiting in. And it was. And the Wax track scene was intrinsically tied to your. But I didn't know you guys had been to Chicago.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But just if you can reflect on America, because it seems to me the UK is funny, and I'm sure you guys got plenty of stick for being weirdos. But coming to America in 1980, doing what you're doing, that must have been like coming in from Mars.

[David J]

Yeah, yeah. The truck stopped. Some of the truck stops were pretty hairy. Yeah, yeah. We were actually pursued on a couple of occasions by irate truckers.

[Billy Corgan]

Probably some of my relatives. Yeah. But. But if you can give me a musical snapshot, you know what I mean? Because again, I think you guys are so fully formed out of the egg, so I know the music was really good. I'd have to go try to find bootlegs or something. But. But so I know you guys are up there doing your thing, and there's real strength there. Are you seeing. Are you seeing something in the American crowd yet, or is it too early or what? Like, I just looking for a snapshot impression.

[David J]

Well, the first city that got us and got into us was New York. That's the first place we went to in America. And there was a Connection there, certainly. And one of the other places was Chicago, of course. New York. See, we had a wonderful first. Our first day in New York, introduction to New York City. We were staying at the Iroquois Hotel, famous rock and roll hotel. And the first day we're in there, of course, we will make a beeline for the little bar. And it was just us in there and the bartender. And there was one vacant store which was soon occupied by Iggy Pop, who of course is one of our all time hero. You know, he ordered a beer, you know, and that voice. And we heard the voice. And then. So we were kind of nudging each other. Hickley Park. And he cottoned on to this. He said, hey, guys, you look like you're in a band, you know? In a band? Yeah. Yeah. What's the band? And I said, bauhaus. He goes, oh, like Weimar Germany.

[Billy Corgan]

Cool.

[David J]

And then we engaged with him and. And he was not disappointing. And he said that he would come and see us because we had two gigs lined up. One little club, Tier three, I think it was called Tiny Little Place. And then Dance Theteria.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

In the interim, we were going up to Toronto and to Chicago and then we went back to New York. And the plan was to, like, create a buzz with his first gig and hopefully sell out Dancer Tier, which was a bigger gig. And it was the gig to play at the time. Which happened. That happened. So we get back to New York and play dance. Interior. And there down the front is Ziggy Pop in his black leather biker's jacket, baiting Peter. Come on, my love Bring it, you know, bring it. And he was there through the whole gig. And then we come off and so we're like. That was Ziggy down the phone, right? And all of a sudden, door bursts open. He comes in like a kung fu guy. Hey, guys, that's great. I saw the name. I was in a car, I saw a name. Bauhaus. And I remembered you guys from the whole town. I thought, okay, I'll check them out. I said to the driver, keep the motor running, because these guys, they think they're it, but they're probably, man. And I'm probably gonna be back soon, but I'm here and he's still out there. So there you go.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[David J]

So, yeah, that was great. That was a nice affirmation.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's. See, that's providence, right? Yeah. I meant to be. Meant to be.

[David J]

Meant to be, yeah. Because we had some big influences in America as well as, like the T. Rex.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Bowie Velvet Underground, probably the biggest.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure. Yeah.

[David J]

And MC5 and the Stooges. Yeah, all of those bands.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you. Did you ever get to know Lou at all?

[David J]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you ever meet him?

[David J]

No. John Cale and Nico.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I saw you guys play with Nico. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David J]

Nico wanted us to be her backing band. That would have been a regular band, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

That would have been amazing.

[David J]

After she'd sung with us a couple of times. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you consider it?

[David J]

We considered it for about 20 minutes.

[Billy Corgan]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, would have been amazing. I mean, like, it probably didn't make any sense in reality, but musically, that's. That seems so perfect.

[David J]

Well, I was telling the story to a friend the other day and she remarked that it would have been very interesting if we'd gone into the studio with her.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And did something. Something at that time. This is like 1981.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah. With that atmosphere.

[David J]

Yeah. Maybe with John Cale producing it.

[Billy Corgan]

There you go. I knew Lula, I knew Lou a little bit. And he liked me for some reason, which, you know, he was such an intimidating presence.

[David J]

I can imagine.

[Billy Corgan]

But for some reason he liked me. So whenever I saw him, he was really sweet to me, you know? And then I would. This is in the time when I was being interviewed a lot and I. I'd sit down to the interviews and the interview would end and they go, that was tough. I go, what do you mean tough? You're really tough to interview. You know what I mean? You're the. You're the. And this happened multiple times, so this isn't a one time story. You're the second toughest interview I've ever done. I would go, who the first? Lou.

[David J]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

Lou would just torture these people.

[David J]

You would lacerate them and just play games.

[Billy Corgan]

Amazing. God bless Lou.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Define for me if you know, because I saw it in reference to you, the Exquisite Corpse technique. Do you know this technique?

[David J]

Of course.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, please tell me, because I'd never heard of it before.

[David J]

I was the one that brought it to the band. And it's a surreal. Kind of a surrealist parlor game, if you will.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

And it's based on the old thing of consequences, a consequences drawing where you fold a sheet of paper into four.

[Billy Corgan]

My kids who are in the other room, they love doing that.

[David J]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

They do it all the time.

[David J]

And somebody draws the head, continues the neckline down, then somebody then folds it over and then shows it.

[Billy Corgan]

Would you record that way?

[David J]

Yeah. So you pass it to the next person.

[Billy Corgan]

And they didn't Bowie do that on low Too. Something similar. Do you know about that?

[David J]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Billy Corgan]

I think what I heard is that is Visconti was there and Eno was there. They would. They would bring in somebody like Fripp and they wouldn't play in what other people had done.

[David J]

Yeah, I've heard of that. Yeah. But we would. Yeah. More specifically apply the Exquisite Court's idea to music in that the first time we did that was that we would have an allotted time of one minute to do whatever we wanted. And we'd have four tracks total. And we'd have a pre Recorded, a beat that goes through the whole thing.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, so that's your unifier.

[David J]

Yes, exactly five minutes. And then each of us would take turns without hearing what the other person had done and record their part. And the last five minutes, which was real fun, was that we would have two tracks each with each just record two tracks that related to the. The whole minute that we just stood. And then we just. The moment of revelation, play it back. And it's extraordinary how we did that a couple of times, how. How that worked out.

[Billy Corgan]

Is there a song you can point to that's the best example? I gotta hear this or I know it.

[David J]

Yeah. On the. On the third album, I think it's called Exquisite Corpse. There's a track that uses that technique.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, that sounds so cool. It struck me at the time when I was listening to you in a contemporary frame, when the band was still intact before Breakup, one that you kind of seem to exist in your own atmosphere, which I know isn't true, but that's what it felt like to me. But what was your awareness of other groups? You know, some. Some groups are hostile to other groups that are overly ambitious. Like, what was the. Once you guys kind of got. Took off and started running, what was your sort of logic in the time

[David J]

we were kind of in our own little corner and we didn't really hang out with other bands as such.

[Billy Corgan]

Kind of got that feeling.

[David J]

Yeah. We were our own little gang. And.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's what Pete Townsend says. It says people are attracted to gangs.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

They want to hang out in the band because they want to be in the gang. That's what he told me.

[David J]

Yeah. I mean, we were very aware of other groups and we had great respect for some of those groups like Jordy Vision and the Pop group. Yeah. And the Birthday Party, who we took on tour with us. And they were so impressive. I mean, my brother and I would go out and watch them practically every night. We did like, 20 dates with them and just be blown away. They were much better than Bowers at that time.

[Billy Corgan]

I would beg to differ.

[David J]

I felt they should have been headlining. Just so exciting. Just so. It was wild and abandoned. But. And. And just sort of talk about atonal and. But they would all. If they went. Veered off wildly to the left, they'd all do it.

[Billy Corgan]

I see.

[David J]

Veer off back to the right. They'd all do it and it would just be like this machine, you know? Yeah. Very impressive. But they were. They were such a little gang all to themselves.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, I definitely got that vibe.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So how ambitious was the band? Like. Because with anything that's artistically rooted, at some point, the reality of the record business is staring in front of you, you know, do you work with the big producer? Do you sell out? You know? I mean.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

How ambitious was the band?

[David J]

We had huge ambition, but we really wanted to do it on our own terms. And we weren't averse to commercial suicide, much to the chagrin of our record label.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

You know. Yeah. We wouldn't. We wouldn't. We couldn't play that game.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

No, it has to be authentic. That's the main thing. It's always been the main thing.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And that runs through everything I've done.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, the song All We Ever Wanted was Everything comes to mind, which sort of rings true within the context of the conversation. And the reason I bring it up is I performed with you guys once on stage, which was a great honor. Peter said it might have been you. I feel like it was Peter, but said, what do you want to sing? And I said, all we ever wanted was everything. And it's like you guys were like. But all of you were like, sure, we are not playing it currently, but we'll just do it.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And did it. And then Peter was insistent that I sing Telegram Sam with you guys. And I kept thinking, this is a bad idea, but. Okay.

[David J]

No, that works.

[Billy Corgan]

But my memory of the gig beyond that, you guys were so gracious and nice and cool, which didn't surprise me, but it was nice to meet people that you like. And then at that time, my public vibe in Chicago was very poor because. Probably because I've been running my mouth too much. So I don't remember how I was brought on stage, but when I came out on stage, it was. I think it was at the Riviera Theater in Chicago. I walked out on stage and the whole crowd did one of these, like. Oh, I hear him groaning, like. Because in Chicago, the OG Goth crowd and the OG post punk crowd was all out there and forced to see you guys. So I didn't have a lot of love from that crowd at the time. So when I walked out, there was this kind of audible groan, and I knew it was going to happen. And the beautiful memory that I have. You were there, too, but is the merging of my high voice with Peter's low voice and us singing together. You could have heard a pin drop. It was so beautifully, like, wow, this is really working. And it was that chill that you get in the air sometimes where, like, you don't hear a sound. It went from groaning to absolute still quiet. And when the song ended, it was like one of those. Like, it even took, like, four seconds for people to applaud. And it was like this kind of.

[David J]

Yeah, it was a good choice of song.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, God bless. Well, you guys wrote it, but. But that's my enduring memory of that moment. It was. I guess what I'm saying to you personally is, is you honored me by bringing me out there. But also it was a way to say you to this crowd, who was treating me quite poorly because I myself had made some really severe artistic choices. And because I was going that way, as you do sometimes when you don't go against the crowd, I was getting a lot of stick at home because I'd gone out in the world and been successful. Now I'm coming back kind of beaten

[David J]

down in doing that. You're embracing the essence of bows as well.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, God bless. But, I mean, you're, for lack of a better word, your public endorsement of having me up there with you was like a way of saying to all you off, you know, like, if my heroes are willing to have me up here, what you think about me is you're kind of missing the mark.

[David J]

Yeah. You know, when we started, I mean, we got a lot of resistance and we really relished kicking against that. It was very inspiring. It was much better than if, you know, everybody accepted us and we're going. They were going nuts about us straight from the off.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

The resistance, you know, that's the thing that. The friction, you know, it makes the pearl in the oyster, you know. I mean.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. What they call the sand in the oyster.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It brings to mind when you guys did Ziggy Stardust, because as the story goes. Please correct me that you guys were being compared to Bowie. You're ripping off Bowie. So you guys were like, okay, we'll just do Ziggy Stardust.

[David J]

Oh, that was a big part of that. That's for sure.

[Billy Corgan]

So fantastic.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

If you could just talk loosely about however you want. But, like, we've talked about T. Rex, we've talked a little bit about Bowie, we talked a little bit about Velvet Underground. But I always thought it was so cool that you guys had no problem paying tribute to your heroes like you. You would wrap your arms around them. No problem. Where a lot of bands try to pretend they don't have any influences, it's. It seems to be a particular condition with alternative bands. They act like they never heard of another band.

[David J]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Or if they pick a band, it's always some band from 27 years ago. Yeah, but you guys were, like, fully willing to embrace.

[David J]

Yeah, yeah. We wore those loves on Ashley, for sure.

[Billy Corgan]

But can you talk about that a little bit? Like, was that just something you were. Not every band has that logic. So I'm just curious for your guys's logic.

[David J]

I think it's really important to be a fan, you know, and to embrace that and celebrate it and to recognize it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

You know, pay homage to it.

[Billy Corgan]

What do you know at the time when that came out, if David had any reaction at all to it, or do you like it?

[David J]

We didn't know at the time.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah,

[David J]

I did hear. I did hear secondhand that he said, I don't. I don't know if this is apocryphal or not. That he said, I should have done it like that. I really hope that's true.

[Billy Corgan]

Sounds about right. Sounds about right. Sorry. I had a bug on me. Only the finest on my set. Wow. The bug's really out to kill me.

[David J]

It's not a drone, is it? Some mini drone?

[Billy Corgan]

That would be funny, right? I'd forgotten about this. And then it all came. Came back to me a flash. You guys being in the Hunger Movie. Did you cross paths with David on the movie? Or was it one of those things where you just got.

[David J]

No, I. I had a wonderful interaction with him. So this was a break during filming. And they're setting it up for the next scene. Yeah, now we. Bauhaus, we had this little kind of holding area that was right opposite Bowie's dressing room. And in the area there was a jukebox, our Wurlitzer. And it. Beautiful thing, stacked with 45s.

[Billy Corgan]

Great.

[David J]

All great cuts. 50s, 60s, 70s. So. And it was all working. So when. When we could. We would play records. And I just found myself there on my. On my own. I'm just. And I was going to play a record and I'm looking at all These great singles. And I became aware of a looming presence behind me. Very strong presence.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes.

[David J]

You know, and then I heard that voice. Do you mind if I pick one? And I turn that. And so he's. And now I was really intrigued to see what you're playing. So he looks and punches the buttons. And what he played was grooving with Mr. Blow. Mr. Blow. It's a instrumental from 1970. It's a great track. Real up kind of beat. And he. He starts dancing in front of me. Like, full on. Yeah. But arms in the air, you know, and just smiling that. That smile.

[Billy Corgan]

That 10,000 megawatt smile, really. And.

[David J]

And just eye contact and just for the whole of the song. And I'm just there thinking, how surreal is this? You know? But then I got cheeky with him. Uh.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh.

[David J]

Cause I remembered it's kind of like this hubris that comes from being very nervous. And that's how it came out. When Lo came out, I always thought that he'd cribbed the harmonica part on the track. A new career in a new town from grooving with Mr. Blow. And I said to him, this reminds me of something. He goes, I. Oh, yeah, what? I said, it's one of yours. He goes, what? Which one? I said, it's off for low. He goes, come on, which one? I said, a new career in a new town. With that, he put his finger to his lips and winked and carried on dancing. And then when the song finished, he walks by me and just pats me on the shoulder. So that was wonderful, you know?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. He was something. He was something.

[David J]

He was amazing.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm still trying to kind of put all those. You know, I had various encounters with him, and I'm still trying to put those pieces together. Cause I think he operated at so many levels that sort of, like, it's still hard to understand all of it.

[David J]

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, his work is still kind of being figured out in a way.

[David J]

Yeah. Yeah. And what a wonderful gift he left us with that black star.

[Billy Corgan]

What strikes me most about him as an artist is kind of like a Velvet Underground. He inspired so many people in so many different directions.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It's like he gave a whole generation of kids permission to just be whoever they wanted to be.

[David J]

Yeah. Really true.

[Billy Corgan]

And in a way, you could kind of crib from him and you could almost pay tribute. But it almost felt like more like tribute or honoring him than, like, stealing.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, and he was kind of cool with that because he did it himself. So it Was all part of the tradition.

[David J]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean? Just walk me through. Because we're kind of getting to the part where the band starts to get funky here, but she's in parties. Just amazing single. But there's this sense. And I did it from research, but Peter's sick, so he's not at the sessions as much. And maybe this starts to become what becomes love and rock. It's like you guys kind of almost become more of a team without him.

[David J]

And.

[Billy Corgan]

Can you just walk me through that a little bit?

[David J]

Yeah. Peter was. He was very ill in hospital with pneumonia. And we had the session booked at Rockfield Studios in Monmouth for that album. And we were hoping that, you know, he'd recover enough to go there. But I remember we paid him a visit in the hospital and now this is my recollection of it is that we said to him, you know, what do you want us to do, Pete? You know, should we hold back and wait for you? And I remember him giving his blessing, saying, no, go start it and I'll come down and I'll do my bit when I'm ready and better. So that's what we did. Of course, we get there and we started. I mean, it was kind of. That album was kind of half written, but half of it was written there and then in the studio, which was the idea. But we were on tour at that time, so you know how it gets, you know that the time for writing becomes very precious and few and far between. So you end up with like a half written album.

[Billy Corgan]

I see.

[David J]

And it was kind of exciting. The idea of writing on the spot is exciting as well. And we did do that. And we came up. Daniel came up with a song where he sang the lead vocal. A slice of life.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[David J]

And I came up with a song called who killed Mr. Moonlight. Now, originally I imagined Peter singing that and I. I did like what I thought was a scratch vocal because pretty much, it was pretty much fully formed, that song. I wrote it in the studio, but kind of there on my own. And the engineers said, yeah, I think this should be the vocal. It sounds great. It's your song. So we said, okay, yeah, yeah, that works. Peter can sing some great harmonies on the end anyway, so this kind of stuff was going on. So when Peter finally did make it, he did not like the fact that we'd. We'd stepped in to his. What he perceived to be. And brightly enough, his position as a singer, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, I see.

[David J]

Yeah. He said, what am I going to do on this Play the bloody tambourine. If we do this live, I'm like, no, play the tambourine. So it created a bit of a schism there. Yeah, for sure.

[Billy Corgan]

So the band seems to dissipate. Well, the band basically dissipates before the album even comes out. Right. Isn't it? Is that. Is that accurate?

[David J]

Yeah, it was falling apart in the studio.

[Billy Corgan]

So what's the. Just the simple version will do, but like just suddenly just everybody turns around and says, that's it. I mean, because you guys kind of announced you're going to do this last gig and then there's like a couple gigs and then that's it. There's no big send off or anything.

[David J]

Well, we had. We had dates booked and. And we, at this point, you know, we were playing big places now and it had gone up, you know, another tier.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And I remember we were booked to do a TV show. I can't remember the name of it, but it was a big show at the time and we were going to play two songs live on this show. It was a big deal and the record label were really invested in us doing the show. And it's another thing that's going to jettison up.

[Billy Corgan]

Going to the top.

[David J]

Yeah, we're going to the top of most of the problems. And I remember we played the gig in London at the Hampstead Palais and then we were back at the hotel, we had a huge row. I can't remember what it was about. Probably nothing. And we were all in separate rooms. And I remember a lot of doors being slammed. A lot of doors slamming going on down the corridors, you know, and also objects being thrown in rooms. And by the end of that, that night, you know, we'd made a phone call to say, we're not doing the TV show.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow.

[David J]

And we're done.

[Billy Corgan]

That's it. Play the one more gig and that's it. Right, because you had two gigs. That's at least what I saw.

[David J]

Yeah,

[Billy Corgan]

the apocryphal thing. And again, it might be. Maybe it's a.

[David J]

No, no, I think it's just a TV show that was blown off.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Because there's this bit in there where as you're walking off stage, you say, rest in peace.

[David J]

Yeah, because we knew.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

Anyway, we knew.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, I see.

[David J]

But then it was confirmed by the fracar that followed, so we thought we were going to do, okay, we'll just do the TV show and then see how we feel. But it never got that far.

[Billy Corgan]

I see, but did you. I mean, you guys had only Been together about four years.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So were you okay with.

[David J]

It seemed like 20.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Well, that's how those things go, you know? Like, you look back at your itinerary, you're probably working almost every other day. And, you know, so that stuff, it goes fast.

[David J]

It was that. And just build this building friction. See, when the three of us were there in the studio, you know, it was so. It was so easygoing, and we were having a real good time. We had this flow going, and it just felt good, you know? And then as soon as Peter did come, I mean, it just kind of caused disruptions.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you think people were in his ear, trying to do the you should go solo thing?

[David J]

Oh, yeah. It was that as well. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

That's usually part of it.

[David J]

Yeah. And I remember we had. We did have a crate of champagne in the studio that had been put aside for when we finished the album. And when we did finish the album, we found out there was one bottle left and champagne Charlie, Mr. Murphy had necked it, so that didn't go down well either.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so before we get into Love and Rockets, because I do love Love and Rockets as well, thank you for indulging me on all the Bajou stuff. Because you've lived in this schism for so long, and the word we. I own a professional wrestling company, and the word we use in professional wrestling is kabuki. And what kabuki means in professional wrestling is the artifice gets so out there that it no longer is. It can no longer be believed. Does that make sense, the way I'm framing it? It's understood. Professional wrestling is artifice. But if it gets too whacked out, it almost becomes comical, and we call that kabuki.

[David J]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

So as somebody who's lived in the schism between surreality, reality, art, commerce. You know what I mean?

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

How do you view that? The line of pretense is maybe a better way to put it. It's a weird question, but I figured you would be perfectly suited because you've lived it. I knew. I knew early on I was jumping off of whatever artistic ship I was on because I wanted to. Whatever gold was over the other hill. I wanted what Led Zeppelin had. You know what I mean? Like, I loved art bands, but I wanted to be Led Zeppelin, too, you know?

[David J]

Yeah. If this answers your question, I'm not sure. We never felt that we betrayed desire, a quest for authenticity. Yeah, we never did that.

[Billy Corgan]

No, that's what I'm saying. So I'm saying you're uniquely voiced because you Never. You never did jump to that other side.

[David J]

No. Well, yes, I agree, but is there

[Billy Corgan]

a moment where you're in a studio somewhere, you're writing a song, and it's like. I'm not saying it's the devil on your shoulder. You know what I mean?

[David J]

Oh. We're saying, oh, hold on a minute. This is not authentic.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure. Or, well, if I just added this chord, you know, you understand, there's title forces that go on. There's a record company, there's a manager. We once shared the same manager.

[David J]

Yes, we did.

[Billy Corgan]

And, you know, he was in my ear before I even had an album.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

In fact, he once told me, our mutual manager, he once told me, what is with all this heavy riffing you're doing? Stick to love songs. You're really good at that. And I told him, you don't understand what's happening. I mean, I see this thing coming, and we're like. We're right in the middle of this thing that's coming. And he was like, but you can write pop music. Like, just stick to that.

[David J]

Yeah, okay. Well, there was one track that we recorded called Sanity Assassin. And it's a very strong track, and it's kind of commercial, but without betraying essential authenticity at all. But again, it's going back to this whole thing of us and our perception of what is rock. And that being a bit of a dirty word back then. Cause it's just too straight, you know? And we had this track, and I remember Marty Mills from the record label, Beggars Banquet came down to hear the playback. And that was on the tape. And it's actually the first thing that came up because we wanted to get it out of the way. And now here's the album. Martin. But he heard that and he said, stop tape. Said, that's the single. That's. Oh, my God, that's the single. And we had to break it to him that not only is it not single, it's not going on the album, but we are going to release it as a limited edition of 400 just for the fan club, which is what we did. You know, thinking back, I think that was not a good idea.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And it sounds great. You know, that track. I don't know if that.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, no, it's.

[David J]

Speaks to what you're asking.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, no, it's just a rummage around. I know I said this slightly. I said this before in a slightly different way, but when I was young, I was in awe of artists who lived it. So you guys were that Joy Division Was that Bowie? Was that. And I. And I added my own intellectual overlay to that about what it meant.

[David J]

Mm.

[Billy Corgan]

When I got into the record business and, you know, like a lot of young people do, you know, you get imposter syndrome, or it's like, do I belong here? My own father didn't think I could be successful. So it's like I had. Inside, I had somebody in my own ear going, good luck. You're not going to make it. But I found over time. There's a point to this ramble is I found over time that a lot of the people I thought were purists in the game weren't purists at all. They just picked a lane that worked for them. They were never going to be pop stars, so they were going to be independent and act cool and wear the right T shirt, but they're not lifers. You know what I mean? And there's plenty of examples where I could point to where it's like the band with all the integrity in the world when as soon as the record company came calling with the right check or the right opportunity. Right. But you're actually somebody who lived it, so you have a new, unique perspective. So whatever you add to that perspective is interesting to me because you actually lived it. It's not a. It's not an intellectual construct for you. You. You made a decision as a young person, as did your brother, that you. That's who you were going to be, and you've been that person the entire time. It's not. I'm not saying it's a commitment like a nun. It's just a commitment to something you really believe in.

[David J]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry. It's too much of a speech.

[David J]

It's always been. Been the case. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Okay, so go, please.

[David J]

I was gonna say that and that continue with Love and Rockets, big time.

[Billy Corgan]

But there's a. At least on first blush, because I. I was listening from the first. It seemed that you guys were willing to embrace everything that Bauhaus didn't embrace, like catchy choruses. And I'm not saying Bauhaus didn't have catchiness, but.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I'm saying? It seemed to be like, okay, we're gonna kind of go to the other side of the planet here and. And play around in the other sandbox. There were psychedelic influences. There was a little bit more overt pop.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But I didn't feel like you guys were trying to suddenly be successful. It seemed like you just made a decision, you just want to play on the other side of the kaleidoscope or something.

[David J]

We really wanted to be successful, but it wasn't that we. That was our main. Yeah, the driving factor. You mentioned psychedelia. See, Daniel and I were really into psychedelia, you know, going way back. And Peter. It wasn't something that was shared with Peter. He wasn't really into that. So therefore, because a band is a democracy that was somewhat oppressed, you know, that. That. That influence. And then when Peter was not a part of this new band that came out big time. And also it worked very well with the kind of zeitgeist at the time. There was the whole Paisley Underground happening in San Francisco, mid-80s, you know, and there was a kind of. A real kind of rediscovery of great 60s psychedelia. Bands like Love Sid Barrett. And we. We loved all that stuff, you know, and it was the kind of music that Daniel and I would listen to on the cassette in the car away from Peter. We'd blast Dirty Pink Floyd and things like that. Thirteen Floor Elevators. So that came out big time. And it was a joyous kind of, like, expression of that influence. And we just found that we had a natural proclivity to come up with melody. We were into melody. The Beatles as well. We were into, like, psychedelic Beatles. And all of that came into play. And we had a very important component in this was John A. Rivers, who was the engineer, co producer on the first two albums. And he had a studio, Unlimited Spa Woodbine Studios. And John was very much au fait with all of that psychedelia. And he was a great keyboard player and a great arranger. And he kind of became a fourth member of the band.

[Billy Corgan]

I didn't know that. Yeah.

[David J]

And he was a very important factor in. In the. In the whole progression of the band.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. The decision to sing together a lot. You kind of sort of form this one voice, you know, and it reminds me, when I first heard Lennon McCartney, I didn't know there were two lead singers. I just remember them singing together on Meet the Beatles when I was a kid. And the sound of that. Yeah, you know, whatever happens with, you know, phasing and comb filtering. But it was like, you guys made this interesting choice to sing a lot of the songs together.

[David J]

Yeah. It was different to the Beatles in that it wasn't really harmony singing that we were doing, although harmony. There are some harmonies.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. But there's a lot of unison. Right.

[David J]

It's. Yeah, just. We're seeing the same thing. So it's almost like, you know, double tracking. But two different voices.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. But was that a. I hate to say it was a decision, but, like, how'd you arrive at that? Maybe is a better question.

[David J]

When we first got together to rehearse, we just. Without talking about it, we had the. Remember the lyrics to the couple of songs that we had on the. On the wall, and we both sort of dived in to sing these lyrics. And we. It wasn't so competitive or anything. We were both singing the lyric, but nobody backed off. And then we very quickly realized, oh, this blend. There's a blend here. It's a cool sound and it's very strong, you know. And also, I think what fit figures in this whole thing is that we had to. Talking about competition, we. In a way, we had to compete with a very strong singer in Peter.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, well, he got out of the Gates as a solo artist. He. Out of the Gates pretty strong, but

[David J]

in the band, you know, that's such a strong voice. And so we've got to follow it with something that's not strong in the same way, but strong in another way.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

And I think that double. That natural double tracking effect worked really well in that regard.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I actually saw Peter on his first solo tour, and I love Peter, so I don't mean this as criticism, but I was struck by. It's like he almost didn't know what to do without you guys. And I'm not saying he was sorry for your absence. It's like he didn't know how to be, like, let's call it the lead singer without a band. The ego version of the lead singer. Like, it's all about the singer. Like a Tom Jones or something. It's like he didn't know. You know, he had good musicians who just kind of stood there, but they didn't have your guys's charisma and gravitas.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And it was kind of a weird gig to watch because.

[David J]

Chemistry.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you. So he. Something got lost in him not being able to bounce off you guys or something. And I remember thinking, this is odd because he had all this momentum. There was the single that was doing really well, and it was even on mtv and.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And it was just kind of. He had. He had that moment out of the Gates where it was like, looked like he was going to be a big solo star.

[David J]

That's all about chemistry.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Because we. And in Love Rockets, we still had that, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah. How did the. How did the Bauhaus fans that you were sort of. At least the ones you knew. How did they react 11 rockets. Did you. Was there anything reflexive to it? Because it's such a different animal to Bauhaus.

[David J]

Are you talking about the other bands, how they.

[Billy Corgan]

No, no. I guess I'm talking about, like, you know, sometimes you. You're around long enough, you know, a few fans that like what you do.

[David J]

Other fans?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Did, like, did they. Did they take 11 rockets or.

[David J]

Yeah, pretty much. And I think we. I mean, we went in a certain direction that those fans felt connected with. They were going through a personal evolution themselves to do with the times, what was going on, you know, and it resonated with that.

[Billy Corgan]

That really dovetails with my experience because I was dating somebody who was super goth and only listened to, like, all the goth.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I remember she had gotten the new album, you know, the first one, Loving Rockets, and my first reaction when I put it on was I really. I really liked it and I got it. And I thought the way the guitar was more prominent and all that stuff.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And you guys singing together, I was like, I got it right away. Like, oh, this is cool. But I remember almost looking at her thinking, like, do you like this? Because she was a total goth purist.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And she liked it.

[David J]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

And that surprised me because I was like, I wouldn't have necessarily made that intellectual leap. And I think you're right. It was like something was shifting in the culture at the time.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Like maybe. Maybe the narrow definition was expanding out, that there could be other ways.

[David J]

And it still had a strain of the kind of dark romanticism.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure. Well, even saw with the Cures, is Robert pivoted through different styles. Yeah. That audience followed him.

[David J]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

This is a over, over compression of time. I know it didn't happen like this, but the net result of this new venture was that, you know, it seemed much more voiced for America. I'm not saying that's what you were trying to do, but it seemed to catch on more in America than Bauhaus did. And there was MTV and all that stuff. And it eventually led to a big song and so alive.

[David J]

Yeah. Did you.

[Billy Corgan]

Like you said, you. You want to be successful, but did you have that meal? Like, wow, it's actually happening. You know what I mean? Did you have that moment?

[David J]

Yeah, it was a. It was a gradual ascent, you know, each. Each album that we. Well, the first of all, I mean, our first single, which was a cover, as, you know. Yeah. Temptations.

[Billy Corgan]

Great club track, by the way.

[David J]

It was a great.

[Billy Corgan]

Perfect for the club.

[David J]

It was a great club track. And we had that in mind. You know, we. We crafted it with the clubs in mind, and it did. It took off.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah.

[David J]

In. In Canada initially, got a gold record, and then very quickly after that in the States. And then we started getting offered gigs in the States, and they were decent gigs, and there was an audience there. And then the first album did well. And then each successive album, it went up a step, you know, in popularity, especially in America. Really, America was our place.

[Billy Corgan]

Kind of funny, isn't it, in a way. You know what I mean? Because Bauhaus really had that moment in England.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And then now you have this different thing, much different voice.

[David J]

I see why, though? Because, I mean, it does. As you alluded to just a minute ago, there is American influence in them, in the music.

[Billy Corgan]

I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense.

[David J]

Yeah, there is. And that came out. Just naturally came out. Yeah. And so it all connects.

[Billy Corgan]

So, jumping forward to our time with the mutual manager.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Raymond Coffer was his name. Is his name. I think we started with him right around the time that so Alive was peaking as a hit. And of course, he used that as a calling card. Like, look, I took them to the top, you know what I mean? But I went and looked up the statistics because I remember him bragging it was number one. It was Modern one. Number one. Modern rock.

[David J]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

But he. I think he told us it was number one in the world, as only your manager would. But I was. I was. I was happily surprised to see it was number 14, Billboard. So that's quite something, you know what I mean? Considering the American charts at the time.

[David J]

And that was number three in the.

[Billy Corgan]

Maybe. Maybe my card is wrong.

[David J]

Like the proper charts.

[Billy Corgan]

The proper charts.

[David J]

The proper charts.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm probably wrong. I know it was a big record, let's put it that way.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Huge record.

[David J]

Well, I still.

[Billy Corgan]

I. And it's one of those things because it was so big. I still hear it like you're in a restaurant and there it is. I know.

[David J]

Yeah. You asked about moments. There was a particular moment, I recall where we were. We had a tour set up in 89, when that was. It was on the radio. And we got to New York and we got in a cab, three of us, and the cab driver recognized us and started singing so Alive. And this is a guy, you know, like in his 50s, you know, like Bruce kind of New York cabby, you know. Yeah, I know. You guys have the radio. And he starts singing so alone. That's when we knew this wouldn't have happened. Like Last year.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah, that's the moment. Do you feel that? Because Bauhaus, of course, the myth has grown over time and there's been various reunions. Do you feel the people in this point in time totally understand Love and Rockets or you feel that that's. That gets a little lost in translation?

[David J]

Well, there are many aspects to that band and I think on some occasions we were a little bit ahead of our time and it wasn't understood at the time when we went into more electronica influenced music like Hot Trip to Heaven, which was early 90s, you know. And the last album Lift was very electronic and I think both of those records were somewhat ahead of the. The game there. And also the, the album, the interim album, Sweet fa, which was kind of like a mix of electronic and. And guitars. Yeah, distorted guitars. And I. I really hear like the influence of that or certainly bands that. That coming out now, that sound, you know. Yeah, yeah, like that. So I think it's. I think it's being. I think the reputation of Love and Rockets is gradually growing.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, that's good to hear.

[David J]

All the time. And I get really good positive feedback more and more.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I saw that you did the. There's like a. Not a remix, but like the sessions from the Sweet FA album. You did like a. I don't know what you call it. It's in. The remix is not the right word. It's like a revisiting the sessions or.

[David J]

Well, there was a. There was a. That was never on vinyl and it really works on vinyl, that record. Some. Some records work better on vinyl than others and that one is one of those. We just added outtakes.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[David J]

It's a double.

[Billy Corgan]

Who owns the rights to the, to the Sweet FA album? Do you know is. It is. It's Rick Rubin's world.

[David J]

No, it's beggars.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, it's beggars.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And they never. They've never put it on vinyl.

[David J]

Not until recently.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, but it is.

[David J]

Originally it was on American Recordings.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought.

[David J]

Rick Rubin.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

But now it was released as part of a box set as well.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[David J]

Vinyl. Very nice. Very good quality. Yeah, very good. 180 gram. I mean like the quality of vinyl these days is so great.

[Billy Corgan]

I was asking because we have our own imprint that we do, so.

[David J]

Oh, fishing.

[Billy Corgan]

I was fishing. So take this how you want. It's. It's a bit self serving, but you can ignore that part of it. But like managing the myth, you know what I mean? As a fan, like, you know There are. There aren't enough great hyperbolic words you can use to describe, you know, both bands, Bauhaus and London Rockets, love them both. I learned something from both, I got something from both, I stole something from both. But the general public doesn't always understand these things. But over time, this other thing happens, if the music survives, which it will, of course, and is a mythology starts to creep in, you know what I mean? And part of the success of that is managing the mythology. How do you feel about managing the mythology of something like that? Is that too esoteric a question?

[David J]

No, not at all. Yeah, we're very conscious of that. And we guard it and we curate it and we nurture it and. And we have a very good. It's great that we have a good relationship with the label in that we're always consulted on anything that's released, and we're very picky in that regard. So it's kept in check. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you feel that in particular, the Bauhaus reunions, do you feel they've sort of given later generations of fans the right glimpse of the band, or do you feel like it hasn't quite. I'm just curious for your thoughts on that. In reflection.

[David J]

Yeah, I think very positive. And the last time we were out, I think maybe that was the absolute height of the band. I think when we played, we played here in LA at the Cruel World Festival. I think those two gigs were in some ways, like the absolute apex. Like, it was just.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, in many ways, the band's never been bigger, at least. No, we should talk about Bauhaus.

[David J]

Just as far, like, as our presentation and the way we were playing, and still it had the same kind of intensity and edge, all intact. Nothing, nothing of that lost. And I'm very proud of that.

[Billy Corgan]

When you. When you guys split from Peter, you know, he went one direction. Whether, like, I'm not asking what was the negotiation for peace, but what. What piece needed to be made so that you guys could still make music together, or is it just time?

[David J]

I think a factor in. In that is that I had gone on the road with Peter.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, that's right.

[David J]

Yeah. The Ruby Tour, which is the. Is the 40th anniversary of the first album in the flat field, and we did a lot of dates all over the world. He asked me to come and be a part of that, and it just. And his entreaty reached me at the right time, mind you. I had to put the money up quite a bit, but I did and came on board and it was a Great band. Mark Gemini Thwaite on guitar, Max Ski on drums, great drummer. And that was very successful. And from that we were offered three nights here at the Palladium in la.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Not a small gig.

[David J]

No, as the night. The full band.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Oh, the full band. Okay. Yeah.

[David J]

Oh, yeah. With Daniel and Kevin.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah.

[David J]

And everybody was just in a kind of receptive mindset. But I think our tour that I'd done with Peter paved the way for that I did. And it was kind of a. It was a nice kind of ease in. I see for me. And they'd seen me out on the road with him and seeing that I got through it. So it all just kind of panned out and then. And we were going to carry on, you know, do a lot of gigs and we were like plot, you know, we're going to play Radio City, New York, really nice venues. Then of course, Covid.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah.

[David J]

So it was scuppered until, you know, we finally, yeah, came out.

[Billy Corgan]

I typed into chat GPT or one of those things, how many solo albums you made, and it said 11 to 15. I don't know what that means.

[David J]

It's probably double that, really, if you include collaborations.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. You've always put out a lot of solo work. So I was curious about that because in my situation, you know, when you don't have the name, you know, it just. The interest in the work goes down. It's. I don't know what that is. It's just the way things work. Marketing. So obviously when you go out as just yourself or I go just myself, you know, you, you. You know, before you begin that you're navigating a different sort of field.

[David J]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

What has it been about making so much solo music that's kind of kept you focused? It's just the. Is it the act of doing it, the joy of doing it? Like. I know it's a weird question to ask. It seems self evident as I ask it, but I want to hear it from you.

[David J]

Yeah. It's just the imperative that comes from wanting to create. And it's nothing to do with. I mean, my audience is like you say, it's very niche, like super niche. And it's very limited, but they're very appreciative and Die Hard and it's a real listening audience and they're attuned to nuance and subtlety. And I have that audience in mind when I'm going. When I'm in studio recording, I do it in the back of my head. I have that audience and I know they're out there. And it doesn't matter that it's kind of small compared to the bands.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. And it's not about small or big. It's just about. I guess what strikes me is doing work that you feel good about and you believe in, but before you even sort of press play, you know that the audience is limited just because of the way the world works. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think as you get older, at least it has been for me. It's harder sometimes to surmount the courage or the energy. Because if you just called it something else, just a bigger audience shows up. Has nothing to do with quality. It just. Because. What's the old saying? What's in a name? You know?

[David J]

But I am just. I mean, essentially doing it for myself. I can't do anything about it. It's just, you know, I'm compelled to create all the time.

[Billy Corgan]

I did see the. I feel like it was an infamous tour, but it was the one where you just. Guys played under light bulbs. Oh, yeah, I saw that tour.

[David J]

Oh, you did? Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

In Chicago. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

All right.

[David J]

Yeah. That was with Max Ida. He's now left us very sadly. And. And Owen Jones from Jazz Butcher group.

[Billy Corgan]

Ah, okay.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[David J]

I love doing that tour. Yeah. Very stripped down. Again.

[Billy Corgan]

Um. Have not read the book. I need to. I have a copy. I just haven't read it. Um, how's the response been to the book?

[David J]

Yeah, it's been very positive, actually. Yeah. And some. I just heard it sold out, second edition. Sold out. Which is actually the third edition because they slipped out a little secret. Second edition. So it's done. Well, yeah. That book.

[Billy Corgan]

I need to read this book.

[David J]

And again, I was compelled to write that book to tell the story. It's nothing to do with making money or anything like that. It's just I have to tell the story.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. The word I would use is. It's a terrible word, but lifer. It's. Of course, she refers to people stuck in jail for their life, but I think certain musicians are lifers. And you're a lifer. You know what I mean? You're in it. Yeah.

[David J]

That's like it.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, it seems at this point. Yeah. I've had many years where I really doubted my sanity finally. And. And I just. I. I honestly, I do it out of kind of a mutual love, I think. But I. I was surprised to see. I. I'd forgotten that you guys were part of the apocryphal bill where Jane's addiction imploded on stage.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

In Fact, the last time I saw Daniel was where he was doing some. He was kind of guesting with Jane's Addiction.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Some tour we were on together. And.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And he was. He was. He was around my. I tried to tell him this story. And I'll tell it to you because maybe you'll think it's funny. He. He didn't think it was that funny. We played a gig in 1991 in England. It was kind of our. You know, everyone was going to be their gig.

[David J]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, Nirvana was there by Billy Valentine was there. It was one of those gigs. And yeah, Daniel was there.

[David J]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

And my enduring memory of all these luminaries are in the dress room. You know what I mean? Everybody, like, it's like a who's who of 90s grunge and alt.

[David J]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And. And, and. And Daniel's there with this French model. And, you know, we're young, so we're. We're. We're talking to her as much as we're talking to him. I don't know.

[David J]

It's just.

[Billy Corgan]

It's our dressroom and. And we say, you know, we're trying to be polite, like, well, how do you. How do you know? How do you.

[David J]

We're.

[Billy Corgan]

We're like in awe of a Daniel. We used to, you know, it's Daniel Ash, you know, and goes like this. I don't know how I ended up with this monster. And I tried tell him that story a couple years ago, and he just kind of looked at me like it didn't. It didn't land.

[David J]

Yeah, I know you're talking about as well.

[Billy Corgan]

I was like, you don't remember the French model? And he was like, yeah, I think her name was Veronic or, you know, it was like that. His. That's his memory. So, yeah, rockstar problems. He can only. He can kind of remember the French models.

[David J]

Yeah. It's hardly amusing.

[Billy Corgan]

Anyway, thank you so much for talking to you.

[David J]

Thank you, Uma. It's been great.