Dean and Robert DeLeo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dean and Robert DeLeo | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
• Host: Billy Corgan
• Episode: Dean and Robert DeLeo
• Release Date: April 23, 2025

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Introduction & Background

In this episode of The Magnificent Others, Billy Corgan sits down with Dean and Robert DeLeo, the talented brothers behind the iconic rock band Stone Temple Pilots (STP). Known for their signature sound that defined the 1990s rock scene, the DeLeo brothers share their profound journey through success, creativity, and personal challenges. This conversation delves deep into their musical evolution, collaborative processes, and enduring friendships within the tumultuous landscape of the music industry.

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The DeLeo Brothers' Journey with Stone Temple Pilots

Billy opens the discussion by reflecting on the longevity of STP, marveling, “[00:47] Billy Corgan: Can you believe it's been 30 years since we've been putting out some of this music? That is just a mind blower...” The brothers reminisce about their early days, the inception of STP, and how their musical chemistry with Billy and the late Scott Weiland crafted timeless tracks.

Notable Quote:

• “[00:47] Billy Corgan: Can you believe it's been 30 years since we've been putting out some of this music? That is just a mind blower...” — Billy Corgan

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Recording Processes and Musical Insights

A significant portion of the conversation centers on their recording methodologies and the intricate interplay between guitar and bass that defines STP’s sound. Robert explains, “[03:58] Robert DeLeo: Yeah, I kind of came up with this,” highlighting their approach to songwriting and recording, where melodies often guide the vocal delivery, ensuring that each song retains the quintessential STP aesthetic regardless of the lead vocalist.

Notable Quotes:

• “[03:58] Robert DeLeo: Yeah, I think it was because Dean and I, musically, when we come up with something, there's usually a melody that goes along with it.” — Robert DeLeo
• “[17:40] Billy Corgan: It was always sitting down with an acoustic and then taking that and turning it up to 10...” — Billy Corgan

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Personal Relationships and Challenges

The dynamics within STP, especially in relation to Scott Weiland’s struggles, are candidly discussed. Dean acknowledges the challenges, stating, “[44:25] Billy Corgan: So how did you guys adapt to kind of an us versus them or did you just not see yourself as part of that conversation?” Robert adds, “[44:26] Robert DeLeo: I don't know if he was always happy with himself...,” shedding light on the personal toll that fame and addiction took on the band members.

Notable Quotes:

• “[44:01] Billy Corgan: Scott seemed particularly sensitive to it. Is that...?” — Billy Corgan
• “[44:24] Robert DeLeo: We all got tossed into this washing machine.” — Robert DeLeo

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Reflections on Success and Adversity

Billy explores the concept of success within the volatile music industry, pondering how STP navigated their meteoric rise amidst shifting trends and personal demons. Robert reflects on their resilience, “[41:21] Robert DeLeo: Musically, yes. Musically, yes... We did something right, that we actually like to go out.” This resilience is further emphasized as they discuss maintaining artistic integrity against commercial pressures.

Notable Quotes:

• “[38:13] Billy Corgan: So from the inside, what was your take on the kind of the cultural part of the 90s?...” — Billy Corgan
• “[41:21] Robert DeLeo: Musically, yes. Musically, yes...” — Robert DeLeo

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Creative Evolution and Future Plans

The brothers share insights into their solo projects and future aspirations. Dean mentions working on new records, “[78:36] Robert DeLeo: Dean's working on a record right now, and we're both working on our own records right now,” indicating their continuous drive to innovate beyond their legacy with STP. Billy encourages them to persist, “[82:16] Dean DeLeo: What was a cool gig, man?” — responding to the collaborative spirit that sustains their partnership.

Notable Quotes:

• “[78:36] Robert DeLeo: Dean's working on a record right now...” — Robert DeLeo
• “[83:03] Eric Kretz: Yeah... Here we are.” — Eric Kretz

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Personal Anecdotes and Behind-the-Scenes Stories

Throughout the episode, the trio shares numerous anecdotes that provide a glimpse into their lives on and off the stage. From recalling unforgettable gigs like their debut LA show to humorous interactions with other musicians, these stories humanize the legends behind the music.

Notable Quotes:

• “[27:02] Dean DeLeo: Remember English acid?” — Dean DeLeo
• “[56:38] Billy Corgan: You guys have been put on the block 18,000 times about Scott's issues...” — Billy Corgan

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Legacy and Enduring Friendship

Concluding the conversation, the DeLeo brothers and Billy celebrate their enduring friendship and mutual respect. They emphasize the importance of camaraderie, stating, “[60:50] Eric Kretz: Yeah... We completed records. We. We finished records,” reinforcing that their shared passion for music has been the cornerstone of their lasting bond.

Notable Quotes:

• “[72:13] Dean DeLeo: Back at you, Billy.” — Dean DeLeo
• “[77:29] Robert DeLeo: That's a lot of sand in there and a lot of dirt and a lot of other stones.” — Robert DeLeo

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Conclusion

This heartfelt episode offers an intimate look into the lives of Dean and Robert DeLeo, celebrating their contributions to rock music while acknowledging the personal and professional hurdles they've overcome. Billy Corgan facilitates a conversation that not only honors their legacy but also inspires future generations to persevere through adversity with integrity and passion.

Final Notable Quote:

• “[87:08] Robert DeLeo: Namaste.” — Robert DeLeo

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Key Takeaways:

• Musical Chemistry: The DeLeo brothers’ harmonious collaboration with Billy Corgan was pivotal in shaping STP’s distinctive sound.
• Resilience Amid Adversity: Navigating personal struggles, particularly related to addiction within the band, showcased their strength and commitment to music.
• Creative Integrity: Maintaining artistic authenticity against industry pressures remains a cornerstone of their enduring success.
• Legacy and Friendship: Their lasting friendships and mutual respect have been fundamental in sustaining their musical journey over three decades.

Memorable Moments:

• Apology and Admiration: Billy recounts apologizing to the DeLeo brothers for past criticisms, highlighting the transformative power of music in overcoming biases.
• Heartfelt Reflections: The brothers share emotional insights into their experiences, offering listeners a genuine and nuanced perspective on their careers.

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This episode serves as a testament to the enduring spirit of rock music and the unbreakable bonds formed through shared passion and perseverance. Whether you’re a longtime fan or new to their music, Dean and Robert DeLeo’s conversation with Billy Corgan provides invaluable insights into the heart and soul of Stone Temple Pilots.

Transcript

[Billy Corgan]

I'm not interested in the dirt stuff. You know what I mean? It's like. It's not this.

[Robert DeLeo]

I'll give it to you, baby.

[Billy Corgan]

There I am somewhere in Chicago. You guys, come on. I watch that video. I think, who the is this? Right? God bless stp. But he dangled you over my head.

[Dean DeLeo]

Gosh, I'm sorry.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, no, no.

[Dean DeLeo]

Look, we're the last of the Mohicans record labels giving us some bread for a video. And I loved every aspect of the creativity.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, at the time, I kind of resented it. But now I realize it was actually a blessing. It's the last time there was any kind of order. Now, no one in this business can tell you what success. The DeLeo brothers, Robert and Dean, are the duo behind the signature sound of Stone Temple Pilots, one of the most influential rock bands of the 1990s. But certainly their journey hasn't been without sorrow or hardship. Welcome to deleo Brothers.

[Robert DeLeo]

Thank you.

[Dean DeLeo]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

Can you believe it's been 30 years since we've been putting out some of this music? That is just a mind blower? Because it just seems like yesterday that we were all on MTV and carousing about poncing.

[Robert DeLeo]

Carefree.

[Billy Corgan]

Carefree, you know, playing, you know, DSUS chords, you know, you still got the mane. See, I don't. He's got the good head hair.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

It does seem like just. It wasn't too long ago. Gosh.

[Billy Corgan]

Right?

[Dean DeLeo]

It's fun, man.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, how did we. We'll get there, but I listened to a bunch of recent stuff. I've been listening to stuff as it comes out, but I went through the kind of, like, sequentially backwards. So your solo record, Lessons Learned, which I really, really enjoyed. You worked with a bunch of different singers?

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

I didn't recognize any of the names of the singers. Did you just find people that you thought were right for the song?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes, friends.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Robert DeLeo]

Friends that happen to be very talented singers.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, lots of friends. I don't have any talented friends. I don't. I was like, how does he know all these people?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes. Just. Just finding the appropriate people for them.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Really nice. And then if I'm saying this. Perdita.

[Robert DeLeo]

Perdita, yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Not quite an acoustic record, but acoustic. Ish.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

What was the logic behind that?

[Robert DeLeo]

Like, heartbreak.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, a lot of heartbreak.

[Billy Corgan]

But was it sort of kind of a grieving?

[Robert DeLeo]

I think so. What do you think, Dean?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

That's been something we've been wanting to.

[Robert DeLeo]

Do for a long time.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it just a kind of A public kind of. Let's just work through some of these things emotionally, musically.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. I think, you know, we've always tried to incorporate, like you tried to incorporate.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, life's tragedies into my music.

[Robert DeLeo]

More gentle sides of our talents.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And I think it was time to just accumulate that all together.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Really beautiful.

[Robert DeLeo]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

Of course, that's Jeff Gut singing.

[Robert DeLeo]

Jeff Goot.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry. Goot. Good. Good. He's. He's not good. He's great.

[Robert DeLeo]

He's good. Very good. He's great.

[Billy Corgan]

And then you guys, somehow you don't name your albums anymore. I don't understand what.

[Robert DeLeo]

This is running out of names.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so STP that album in 2018 with Jeff.

[Robert DeLeo]

First record with Jeff. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And then I kind of went back through into including the. The High Rise EP with Chester singing. But I. I saw something that I. And I've been listening to you guys since. Since the very beginning, but I heard something in these last few records that I go, ah, now I get it. If I just was thinking 90s forward in your. In your music. I always think it's the way the guitar and bass interact obviously has a lot to do with your relationship, I think. But that vibe is what I. When I think sp. I think. I think. When I think spp, I think guitars first, guitar, bass, beam, guitar. I think that's always, like, the guitar always sets the tone. Oh, we're in this little weird part of America right here. We're over here.

[Robert DeLeo]

We're over here.

[Billy Corgan]

But what I heard in these, your solo record and what I heard in Perdita was like, there's a kind of a. I don't want to say it's the great American songbook. I'm not talking about, like, Bing Crosby times, but there's a sort of Americana thing in your music that I never really picked up on before. Does that resonate the way I'm asking it?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, I think. I think it's. I think it's kind of transposed in a. In an R and B kind of Americana way.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Robert DeLeo]

So kind of a mixture of maybe a, maybe A. I always think of, you know, stacks comes to mind because it's kind of A. I literally just.

[Billy Corgan]

Interviewed Sam Moore before you came here.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, you want to talk about.

[Dean DeLeo]

It sounds like he interviewed you.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, yes. Somehow we end up talking about fake dicks, but we'll save that for another. You're not. Every day you get to talk to Sam Moore about fake dicks.

[Robert DeLeo]

That's a treat.

[Billy Corgan]

But there's this Kind of. And this is my description, so please, I want yours. Mine's not important. But I get this, like. It's like when you're driving on a road trip and you kind of come in an interesting part of America, you know, and it's. They're not. It's not all the same, you know, you see a town with a little bit of a faded Main street, and then you go over here and there's the dinosaur on the side of the road. And I think there's that quality in your music. This is very American quality. And, I don't know road trip is the way I would describe it. You always take me to, like, a different place. Just doing the guitar tones you'd always play. You just use the same guitar song like I do. Does it make sense?

[Robert DeLeo]

I think so, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So through these last couple, your record and then the Perdita, I was like, oh, the melody kind of is this American kind of melody somewhere within, between the Eagles or, I don't know, bluegrass or something. And that gives the music a kind of a sinewy quality. And what I would also tell people to do is obviously, Scott has so much to do with the way people perceive stp. But you've had these other great, credible singers, Chester being one, Jeff Goot being another, yet they somehow, they all end up kind of bowing down into the STP aesthetic. So how does that work? Because I'm surprised, because if you just listen to an original song with Jeff singing an original song, with Chester singing an original song, with Scott singing, somehow it still sounds like stp. So what is that?

[Robert DeLeo]

I think that's because Dean and I, musically, when we come up with something, there's usually a melody that goes along with it.

[Billy Corgan]

So the melody, you force the singers.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well, there's been. I mean, Scott was great at melody. He was amazing at melody. But I think sometimes you can't help but sing along with what you're writing.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm saying I was surprised by that because, again, I'm. I'm a fan going back forward, meaning early music forward. So I had my own kind of version of, like, how you guys did what you did and you hear things from studio guys. Oh, this is the way they work and stuff like this.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't know what's true or not, but I'm saying is actually going backwards gave me insight into your music in a way that I never had it. And I've toured with you guys, listened to you guys play many times, and.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think it was. We toured with you. Yeah, that was.

[Billy Corgan]

You guys make it hard to follow a band.

[Robert DeLeo]

That was a great tour.

[Billy Corgan]

It's like I'm sitting backstage warming up, you know, and I'm. It's like, hit, hit, hit, hit, hit, hit.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, but you got. You, too.

[Billy Corgan]

I appreciate it. I appreciate that song after song. But you guys don't have that artistic problem that I have where you need to sort of foist on the audience some sort of weird Bertolt Brecht drama play in the middle of the show. Right? You guys are all about good time. Here's another good time Here's a heart chain here's another your heart chains here's another hit. My show. Always Jimmy. Always Jimmy Chamberlain always called it the Art Breakdown.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

He's like, why do we need to do the Art Breakdown?

[Dean DeLeo]

That's funny. That's funny.

[Billy Corgan]

Real quick. Cause since I have you here and I've never asked you this question, is it true, because I heard this back in the day that you used to record the tracks and then, like, Scott would sing on the tracks. Is that true?

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

You didn't really work as a unit in making the music together, or is that. Is that one of those studio legends?

[Robert DeLeo]

We did. We.

[Dean DeLeo]

We did the music. Well, a lot of stuff was written on our own, too.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

We became very good at holding the phone between our legs and playing a phone into it, you know, And. Yeah, there was a lot of songs where Robert would bring or I would bring. And then there was a lot of.

[Robert DeLeo]

Songs where we'd be like, oh, I.

[Dean DeLeo]

Got a great part for that, man.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

You know, and then Scott would do his thing. Scott liked going in at about 9 o'clock at night when he was good and oiled up, and he would sing one or two songs.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

You know, just. He just wanted to be alone with Brendan, usually.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you see that as him needing his own version of it, or did he need to be away from you or. I'm not saying it in a negative sense. I'm saying people work in different ways. How did you take it?

[Dean DeLeo]

I. I utterly respected it. He just wanted to do his thing. The last thing they needed, both him and Brennan, is me chiming in.

[Robert DeLeo]

Should.

[Dean DeLeo]

Should he do it like this, you know, like.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah. He certainly had a great, intuitive sense of finding, like, interesting nooks and crannies in.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Rhythms and melodies. That was one of the first things I noticed about him as a singer.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, and he enjoyed country music, too. I mean, he grew up with country Music. He could actually sing some mean Hank Williams. He was. I bet he was great at.

[Billy Corgan]

That's the thing about great vocalists is. And even I heard it a track. I can't remember the name of it. You would know. It's like the third or fourth track on the EP with Chester where he sings. He doesn't sound like Linkin Park Chester. He sings almost like. More like a choir boy.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I actually had a. I was like, is this really Chester singing? I'd never heard it before. What a voice.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well, I think when you, you know, get introduced into something musically that's different from what you're used to, you're gonna kind of, like you said, adapt to that.

[Billy Corgan]

But isn't it interesting when you take a great singer like Chester or Scott, and I'm sure you saw it with Scott, where it's like there's these other voices in the voice that you didn't know was there.

[Robert DeLeo]

Exactly. Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, for me, it was always like being a singer was like, I didn't want to be a singer. I got kind of forced into it. Cause nobody would sing my songs.

[Robert DeLeo]

It worked pretty well for you.

[Billy Corgan]

It's okay.

[Dean DeLeo]

I mean, it worked out.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, we call my voice in the Wild Pony because we never know what's going to come out.

[Robert DeLeo]

Y.

[Billy Corgan]

But I didn't want to be a singer, you know, and my own father was a really good singer, and he didn't like my voice. So it was always this weird thing of, like, being put on the spot.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I'm saying is in admiration. When I would look at a guy like Scott, I was like, oh, my God, I wish I could do that.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, but you do your thing.

[Billy Corgan]

No, but that's the beauty of it. I had to. I had to learn to. To adapt to my circumstance, which is totally fine. And I don't bemoan it, but, I mean, look, I was just sitting here with Gene Simmons, you know, talking about seeing Kiss reunite, Tiger Stadium 96 and Alison chains.

[Dean DeLeo]

We were supposed to be on that gig.

[Billy Corgan]

He brought that up. He told that story.

[Robert DeLeo]

Did he really?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah, he told that story. But Alice in Chains did end up opening, and obviously Elaine was going through his troubles. And, you know, he looked like this kind of crazy, emaciated spider in, like, a black cat suit. Right.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And, you know, the last time I'd seen Lane was backstage at a change show. Such a beautiful man, physically, you know, I mean, just like, almost like too beautiful to be good. And then that he'd open his Mouth. And then that voice would come out. Right. Anyway, so I remember I'm on the side of the stage watching Alice and Chains do their set. Hey, man, when Lane would open his mouth, it was like, wow, that sound. And you know, I'm getting chills just talking about him. Scott had that too. And your guy now, Jeff Goot, I mean, he's got one of those voices too. I mean, it's just like the power of the voice. It's like I'm like, I don't know.

[Dean DeLeo]

How you guys do it.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, really.

[Dean DeLeo]

Especially the racket that we're making.

[Billy Corgan]

It's the genetics.

[Dean DeLeo]

But, oh, my gosh.

[Billy Corgan]

I didn't know this because I've been doing my research here. Born in 61.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yes, sir.

[Billy Corgan]

66.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Dean DeLeo]

Well done.

[Billy Corgan]

The baby over here, baby. I don't. Because I couldn't find any information. How did you get from New Jersey to San Diego?

[Dean DeLeo]

I actually wound up in San Diego. Robert kind of stayed up here.

[Robert DeLeo]

I wound up in hell.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that New Jersey? Is that.

[Robert DeLeo]

No, I came out first. I came out by myself.

[Billy Corgan]

What age, though?

[Robert DeLeo]

18.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Was this the I'm coming to LA to live the dream?

[Robert DeLeo]

No, it was more like I was kind of convincing my mom. It was the three of us living together. It was Dean and my mom and myself. And I was the first one out to California, and I was 18, and I came out with $1,200. And was it a musical dream thing? No, it was just. We had a cover band and we were playing the bar circuit in New Jersey and I just. I was at a dead end. Our sister and brother in law were out in Orange county and they said, hey, why don't you come out and live with us? So I took advantage of that. But, you know, I was kind of trying to fool everyone and trying to make everyone, you know, at that age, you're trying to make everyone else happy.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

You don't really know how to make yourself happy at 18. Sure. But you're trying to make it. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna go to. I'm gonna go to art school, and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. I couldn't hold the job. I got kicked out of my sister's house. I was on the street.

[Billy Corgan]

Why'd you get kicked out?

[Robert DeLeo]

I got fired from a job and I had some girl that spent the night over at their house. And they're like, you want to do that? Go to a hotel? So, you know, I'm gonna start a band. Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Then I Can do whatever I want.

[Dean DeLeo]

I didn't know that happened.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

That's what we're here to do. Reveal.

[Robert DeLeo]

All right. He didn't know.

[Billy Corgan]

What was the name of the COVID band?

[Robert DeLeo]

It was Tyrus.

[Billy Corgan]

T Y R S T Y R U S. See, I had in National Wrestling alliance, our champ last year was Tyrus. Tyrus, the six foot seven behemoth.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, man.

[Billy Corgan]

375 pounds of man.

[Robert DeLeo]

My kind of man.

[Dean DeLeo]

My kind of man.

[Robert DeLeo]

No fake dicks there.

[Billy Corgan]

No, sir. No. He's all man. I can attest to that. So you kind of get the family to come out here?

[Robert DeLeo]

No, actually, I was out here and I, I, I bought a $650 1976 Volkswagen Rabbit and I bought a $250 1978 Music Man. Stingray bass.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And, and I kind of lived with, kind of did the couch tour a year later.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you date any women who took you in? Kind of as I, I did.

[Robert DeLeo]

I did.

[Billy Corgan]

I did that once. It was interesting.

[Robert DeLeo]

It's not fun. It's not fun because you feel like such a, such a weasel.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, in my case, I'm still friends with the person, which is really nice. Somehow we've maintained a relationship.

[Robert DeLeo]

That's great. Hon.

[Billy Corgan]

It can happen in music. It's rare, but it can happen.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

So then Dean and take it from there.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah, I guess it was about 1985.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

My mom and I came out and I wound up moving to San Diego not too long after. And that's kind of where we really started gigging there. Was made, made friends with some guys in bands down there. One of which. Going to shift gears here, please. One of which my dear friend Josh, who he was in a pretty successful band down there. They were original band called Honey Glaze and we did a lot of shows with them and Josh and I did a lot of cool stuff. And Josh actually said, hey man, you gotta, you gotta check out this CD.

[Billy Corgan]

Was this Gish Times or. It was Gish 91.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Which was just, by the way, just turned 33. Which. There's another one like.

[Dean DeLeo]

I'll tell you, man, I was so knocked back by that.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, thank you.

[Dean DeLeo]

That, that, that CD did not leave my thing for like a week. Yeah, I was really just so blown away. It had elements of Prague, like, heavy. We were so crazy melancholic, you know, it was just.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

That record, man, really, really knocked me back.

[Billy Corgan]

So, you know, because, because we're on the same level. I'd met Courtney Love.

[Dean DeLeo]

Hey, I Don't come to you with my problems, man.

[Billy Corgan]

No, no. But I'm tying in. Your story is so. I knew Courtney, I think, right before Gish came out, and after Gish came out, Courtney called me and said, it's unfair. It's like a second album.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well said.

[Dean DeLeo]

That's pretty good.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well said.

[Dean DeLeo]

That's pretty good, man.

[Robert DeLeo]

That's well said.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

That record's beautiful, man.

[Billy Corgan]

Amazing. The drum sound, that was the original Smart Studios, which they had put together totally haphazardly. One of those weird things where it just. It was really loud in there. It sounded really beautiful. They eventually changed it and sort of destroyed what was haphazardly perfect about it. It was so loud, and it was almost impossible to record drums in there with Jimmy.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

And. Yeah. I mean.

[Dean DeLeo]

Jimmy Chamberlain.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Badass. Crazy Jimmy.

[Dean DeLeo]

So Siamese Dream. Dream was a second record, right?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, we recorded that. Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

I remember we were on the road, and I don't know how we got a copy of it, but we put it on on the bus. We were like, holy cow.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, we were going for it.

[Dean DeLeo]

Did Butch do that?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, Butch did that. I drove Butch Plum crazy.

[Robert DeLeo]

We're gonna start interviewing you now.

[Billy Corgan]

No, no, listen. We have an interesting conjoint history. We will get.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

But I have to say, Let me just say, you guys play heavy. And that first record, Gish, it. It was the gentle Moments that were like. Yeah, they have. They have that. That's.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, you guys have that too, but you come at it from a different angle. But that's what I mean. This is. There's this. Even your solo record has a lot of sort of gentle SoCal kind of thing. But when I hear that amplified through your kinetic guitar playing, that was like, oh, that's the revelation I had about your music. I'd never gotten that before.

[Robert DeLeo]

It was always sitting down with an acoustic and then taking that and turning it up to 10, you know what I mean? It was always a jazz.

[Billy Corgan]

Because you're always so guitar forward, though. I always. I just assum. Just like. That's the way you worked. But once I heard the other stuff, I was like, ah, there it is. There's the. There's the secret sauce on stp. So you're down in San Diego. We. You know, we play down there. I think Kasbah. Like, I was there. Yeah. 75 people.

[Dean DeLeo]

Okay. So I said, so I think. I think the occupancy sign, I seem to remember this said maximum occupancy 91. Yeah, this is the old Casbo, dude, all I heard was guitar and cymbals.

[Billy Corgan]

We didn't give a. I was there, man. And we weren't worried about you hearing the bass, let's put it that way. But we walked into that gig, we. True story. We had played Denver two nights before. So it's a Ford, it's a 24 hour drive.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. Big drive.

[Billy Corgan]

So we left Denver after a gigantic Perry Farrell, Casey Nicoli, who was Perry's paramore at the time, that's on the COVID of him. Nothing shocking with him in the.

[Robert DeLeo]

Okay.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And Navarro showed up at our gig in Denver. In Denver.

[Dean DeLeo]

Okay.

[Billy Corgan]

So we meet them for the first time.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

We had played with them, but had. I'd met Dave, but hadn't met Perry before to meet them. Now we got a 24 hour trip and it's a snowstorm through the mountains.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, man.

[Billy Corgan]

Remember that, Junior, as I like to refer to myself in the third person sometimes, was like, I ain't driving. So I just took a bunch of mushrooms because I knew they wouldn't Dr. Ask me to drive if I was high. So I'm tripping my brains out going through the mountains. There's like elks, you know, it's like. And so we drove 24 hours straight to get to that gig. So by the time we got to where you were, we were dead be tired. And then you get in front of that gig, you were like, oh. And you go. You drove all night for this. What the San Diego? Like, what is this?

[Robert DeLeo]

Move on.

[Billy Corgan]

It was so small. It was the smallest gig I think we've ever played.

[Dean DeLeo]

I think this room's bigger.

[Billy Corgan]

It really was one of those, like, Are you kidding? How do you even. How do you even put 90 people in here? Much as, you know, the gate, the gear. Yeah. So. And we were, you know, we were loud.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yes, you were. I was there, man.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Good times.

[Robert DeLeo]

That was.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, Good times. So I touched upon it. But what was your perception of that music scene at the time? Because, you know, San Diego sometimes gets the LA and then there's San Diego. Did you feel there was its own thing or did you get bait? You basically just feels wrapped in an LA version.

[Dean DeLeo]

Much mind to it. I thought the overall music scene was really, really nice, man. There was just some really, really nice music being made, you know?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

Really? Yeah, cool records were being made and it was, look, we're the last of the Mohicans to kind of catch, you know, record record labels giving us some bread for a video and Yeah, I Loved every aspect of the creativity, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. At the time, I kind of resented it, but now I realize it was actually a blessing because it was the last time. No, but it's the last time there was any kind of order.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Right now, no one in this business can tell you what success is.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right.

[Dean DeLeo]

I think Kerr's Lake just got done doing a video for you guys. And we were shooting the Vaseline video.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes.

[Dean DeLeo]

And it was March, I think it was cold out. Cold and gray. We were off in the ocean at the airport. Right off the airport in that ocean scene. We're going out and we get out. We're like, wow, it's cold. And Kevin goes, oh, I'm so sorry. The camera leaked. Can we go back out? And I said, I remember. Do you remember what I said? And I know Kevin just did one of your videos. I said, does Billy Corgan have to do this?

[Billy Corgan]

Well, know that he took. He took me up in the mountains above San Francisco and it rained all night, and I froze and I complained bitterly.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, man. Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

Billy Corrigan wasn't having it, you know.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But just to make sure. Cause I'm curious. So where'd you see yourself fitting in at that point? Because, you know, because California has a way of, like, everybody's so laid back sometimes. Like, the lack of ambition musically can kind of be shocking.

[Dean DeLeo]

But why would I want to fit in when I was meant to stand out?

[Billy Corgan]

You tell me, brother. But nobody's saying. What was your sort of mission statement at that point?

[Dean DeLeo]

Did you have one second record?

[Robert DeLeo]

Survival?

[Dean DeLeo]

To be able to make a second and third, to be able to have a recording career.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dean DeLeo]

That was it, man. Just wanted to keep making records.

[Billy Corgan]

So you were kind of there before Scott or during, or it just all kind of.

[Dean DeLeo]

No, when. When. When the four of us were together, that was the lightning in the bottle, right?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, it was survival for me. I was working at Mesa Boogie on Sunset Boulevard, and, you know, did Dag.

[Billy Corgan]

Ever come in there when you were in there?

[Robert DeLeo]

I don't think you did. I would have remembered if you came.

[Billy Corgan]

In there, because I didn't like Mesa Boogie.

[Dean DeLeo]

Now, that's paying dues, man. Yeah, Mesa Boogie on sunset through the 80s.

[Billy Corgan]

If he'd only survived into the Nickelback era, when Mesa Boogie was really over, then he would have had something.

[Robert DeLeo]

There was all the hair bands still. I was there in, like, 88, 89.

[Billy Corgan]

That must have been some fun conversations.

[Robert DeLeo]

It was a lot of. Dude, yeah, bro. Dude, bro, dude, bro, dude, bro.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

But it was Kind of survival. I mean, we had those songs written. And it was funny because Scott worked across the street. He chauffeured models around. So he was across the street and he'd run over and Scott, you know, he was always a little spazzy. You know, he. He would do this and he'd come over. I got this idea, and I'd pick up a guitar and we'd kind of sit down, and it was. It was a good thing we had there.

[Billy Corgan]

So he's working across the street from the Mesa shop.

[Robert DeLeo]

He was. He was.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Robert DeLeo]

He was.

[Billy Corgan]

That's it.

[Robert DeLeo]

It was Lloyd's right next to Lloyd's, right? By Lloyd's. Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

Vintage guitar, Was it?

[Robert DeLeo]

What was Lloyd's Guitar Safari?

[Billy Corgan]

Was it?

[Robert DeLeo]

No, Lloyd and Alphonse.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

But, yeah, it was. It was kind of. We had these songs, and I think it was just a matter of having these songs. We, We. We were collected and making that first record and not really. Not really thinking about where it was going to go. I mean, getting Brendan O'Brien. We. We originally had Eddie offered come in.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Robert DeLeo]

Who. Who engineered and mixed. Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Okay.

[Robert DeLeo]

Eddie offered.

[Billy Corgan]

That would have been your dream, right? I mean, you're a big yes guy, right?

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, we.

[Dean DeLeo]

We picked his brain.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, God. It was, you know that. That Chris Farley skit where he's sitting down with Paul McCartney.

[Dean DeLeo]

Poor Eddie.

[Robert DeLeo]

Chris is sitting on the Paul McCartney. He goes, do you remember when he ran the Beatles? That's what it was kind of like. We were young and Eddie was sitting there and he'd go, all right, let's take that from the top. And we'd play a little bit and then we'd stop and we'd go, how did you get that sound for Chris Squire on? You know, it was a lesson on Tormato. Yeah, Tormado, man Deep. You went to freedom.

[Dean DeLeo]

Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Have you seen John Anderson's recent touring? Have you guys saw that at all.

[Dean DeLeo]

With the band geeks?

[Billy Corgan]

Amazing.

[Dean DeLeo]

Amazing.

[Robert DeLeo]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

Have you seen it? Yeah, amazing.

[Robert DeLeo]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

First of all, he's 79 or 80 now. He's still singing in all the original keys.

[Robert DeLeo]

Crazy, right?

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. And he's got these younger guys, probably late 30s, into their 40s, so it's like hearing yes. Like the 70s version of yes. So he's playing those songs with all that lean, that rock lean, and he's singing in those keys. You're like, I saw him play outside of Chicago. He got a standing ovation after every song. It was that good note for note. Perfect. With a band that can play all that stuff and him singing all the notes and you're like, what? Oh, my God. And I go back to John, like, how do you do this? I don't know. You know, Good genetics, you know? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's exactly you and I. Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

They're amazing.

[Billy Corgan]

So when did the. The ubiquitous record people start knocking around?

[Dean DeLeo]

Was it 90, 19? 90?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Probably around that.

[Billy Corgan]

The first recording come up. 92.

[Robert DeLeo]

92. It got delayed a little bit because of the name. We originally.

[Billy Corgan]

Joe. Yeah, right.

[Robert DeLeo]

And then it got Chicago Fella.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Mighty Joe Young.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, there was also the movie, which was the fake King Kong.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right, right, right. But we. We had that. What, it was six months delayed.

[Billy Corgan]

Wow. That's for when you're young. That must have felt like an eternity.

[Dean DeLeo]

Oh, we were like, our career's done.

[Billy Corgan]

We're over.

[Robert DeLeo]

We were literally at our art. Guys who was putting the record together. Mighty Joe Young. All the pictures. Oh, it looks great.

[Dean DeLeo]

All laid out in his studio.

[Robert DeLeo]

All laid out. And the manager calls, you gotta change the name.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, what?

[Billy Corgan]

See, I had a different experience. They begged me to change the name because it was so bad.

[Robert DeLeo]

Smashing Tom. It's a great name.

[Billy Corgan]

They hated it.

[Robert DeLeo]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

Everybody hated it. Everybody along the way tried to talk us out of it. And even James D'Arcy didn't like the name.

[Robert DeLeo]

Really?

[Billy Corgan]

My only argument for it was if you heard it once, you never forgot it.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because, you know, I meet somebody in a bar, I thought it was like, what's the name of your band? And you tell it. And six months later, they would be like, how's your band? Smashing Pumpkins. It was like. It's just. I was like, it's good marketing. Just go with it.

[Dean DeLeo]

You know what was a cool gig, man?

[Robert DeLeo]

And I remember you guys played. There was.

[Dean DeLeo]

Remember English acid?

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah. That was our debut LA gig.

[Robert DeLeo]

Ah, that was.

[Billy Corgan]

Jimmy Chamberlain has such a great story. So it's sold out. And, you know, we're at capacity, whatever. It's 450. And all four members of REM show up and they tell him, can't get in. So he turned all of rem, all four of them, away from the door. So Jimmy Chamberlain shows up and the guy's like, sold out. I can't get in. And Jimmy goes. He goes, but I'm the drummer of the Pumpkins. Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And I'm Jesus Christ, you know, really?

[Billy Corgan]

He couldn't get in the gig. The guy wouldn't let him in, you know, so we're all like in the dressing room, like, where the's Jimmy. This is the biggest gig of our.

[Robert DeLeo]

Lives, you know, and he couldn't get in.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

Oh, my gosh, man.

[Billy Corgan]

That was one of those gigs where we had been touring, doing the van thing. And this is like our first LA gig. English acid and all the intelligentsia of LA was there that night. And I know now because I've met everybody that was at that gig. And it was one of those magical nights where we were on point because I think we were so stressed out, L.A. the delay, the vibe, the. The typical LA staff treating you like crap because, you know, who cares who the you are? Yeah. You know. Yeah. All that. That whole vibe. So by the time we got up and I think we launched into Shiva first off a gish, it was like, all right, you, Chicago. Chicago time.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And. And I just remember the audience just start going like this, like swaying, and it was like, here we go. We have that on tape somewhere.

[Robert DeLeo]

That gig 30 something years ago. Cool. Vending.

[Billy Corgan]

That would have. 33 years ago.

[Robert DeLeo]

It's a lifetime.

[Billy Corgan]

That's a lot of solos ago, right?

[Robert DeLeo]

Solos ago, man.

[Billy Corgan]

You're a guitar player too. But you know what I mean, the way we think in terms of leads, you know what I mean? When do I get to play the lead? When's the next lead?

[Robert DeLeo]

And you always had wicked lead sounds.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, I always.

[Robert DeLeo]

Great tones.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you. I have this thing with guitar. See, one thing I love about your brother, I'm gonna talk about him like, he's not here. He's a very patient guitar player.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

He doesn't rush, you know what I mean? He plays beautiful, languid leads. He can shred, like, the best of them. But he also. I don't have that ability. Like, something goes off in my brain and I'm like, go, right, right. Go.

[Robert DeLeo]

Travel on a habit trail.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, it's not just that. I think. I feel like if I slow down, it gets boring.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'll play and I'll think, oh, that was pretty boring. And I'll hear the recording back and I'm like, I sound like I'm on methamphetamine.

[Robert DeLeo]

But it's the aggression is what makes.

[Billy Corgan]

Something'S wrong with me.

[Robert DeLeo]

I feel like, man, it works. Works.

[Billy Corgan]

Back to you. So you get the big record deal. Stp, here you come. There I am, somewhere in Chicago. You guys, come on. What was the sex type?

[Dean DeLeo]

Sex type.

[Robert DeLeo]

Sex type thing.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah, I watched that video. Scott's got the short hair and I think, who The. Is this right?

[Robert DeLeo]

They aired the video. So it came on. Manager calls us, we're playing Florida.

[Dean DeLeo]

It's gonna be on at midnight.

[Robert DeLeo]

Be on at midnight.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it, was it 120 minutes?

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Robert DeLeo]

Comes on.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it with Day? With the, the rat on his head?

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Remember?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

What was his name? God bless him. Sweetest guy in the world. Remember he always had the rat on his head?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes. Can't remember his name.

[Billy Corgan]

Dave something.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

English guy.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes. They show the video. No. Credits.

[Dean DeLeo]

Remember they had the credits in the bottom left corner.

[Robert DeLeo]

Name of the band, the record.

[Dean DeLeo]

You and I were on the phone. I was like, dude, they don't, they don't have.

[Billy Corgan]

That's like such a. Oh.

[Dean DeLeo]

We were like, we're done. We're hopeful.

[Robert DeLeo]

We're done, we're done.

[Billy Corgan]

Who messes that up?

[Robert DeLeo]

I don't know.

[Billy Corgan]

Kevin Kerslake.

[Dean DeLeo]

Josh Taft did that video, actually.

[Robert DeLeo]

Josh Taft, Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, now I have my own selfish opinion at this point. I'm going to set that aside for a minute. What did you guys feel? Because you caught on fast. But there was this vibe, and I wasn't helping, that you guys were sort of like jumping on some bandwagon. Knowing you now, you weren't.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

But at the time, that was the vibe.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you feel that?

[Dean DeLeo]

No, I was jumping on whatever I could, man.

[Billy Corgan]

Show me the bandwagon. You sound good. No, I get it. But I, But I, I get it. You know what I'm saying?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. I think, I think we were just, I don't know, I, I, I've always, mind you, certain things, but I've never gotten, gotten past listening to music past 1980. So I think it was all those influences that we all grew up on.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And, and I think, you know, when we came out, I think it was a writer's, you know, a critic's way to get their piece and their claim and their stake of. I'm going to call this grunge, and I'm going to call this, this. And, you know, I think that's really what happened in that era. And I didn't really look at it like that because I was, I don't know, I was in the, like, 50s, clothing back then, wingtips and my hair slicked back. And I was just doing my thing, you know, we were just kind of doing it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Because I always wonder how it feels on the inside because, you know, bands have their own kind of social economy. You know what I mean? Like, how things balance and, like, you know, if, you know, anything about U2. Like, it's really Larry's band.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But you have to know all four guys to understand what that really means.

[Eric Kretz]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Even if you told somebody through a camera, oh, it's Larry's band, I don't know what that means. But when you're with all for U2, and you see, when Larry talks, everybody goes like, oh, here it comes.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Larry has this kind of moral authority in U2.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

So I'm always curious how bands react to hyper pressure. You know, for us, it crumbled our brains, you know?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. I remember. I remember Tom. Carolyn, our A and R guy, was. He said, you know, fasten your seatbelts. And that was good advice. I always, always took that. But I was. I mean, like you, I was just. I was glad to be out of Mesa Boogie.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And have a record deal. I mean, it was a dream come true.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Then begins this crazy rocket ride that.

[Robert DeLeo]

You guys rocket ride. Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

You know, one of the greatest things, and I'm sure you'll agree, you know, we've all had great fortune in doing some really wonderful things with our career. One of the greatest is getting to make these records with Brendan.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

My goodness, we had such a great time making these records.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. But you know that. Do you know the Brendan O'Brien smashing pumpkin story? I feel like I told you.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yes, you did.

[Billy Corgan]

If I didn't tell you.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Dean DeLeo]

I might know it then.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think Brendan told that story, actually.

[Billy Corgan]

Here's my version. So our guy was Mark Williams from Georgia, which is, I think, where Brendan's from. Right.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. So he was really pushing Brendan to do our post Siamese dream record, which became melancholy. I've already got it in my head, between all the drugs I'm doing and whatever else is going on, I'm gonna make you. Oh, yeah, Billy, I'm still here.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

We're gonna make this sprawling double album. Because my reaction was, I'm sick of being lumped in with the grunge bands.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. You would be included, by the way.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes. Yes.

[Dean DeLeo]

Sorry, man.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Waltz away from you.

[Robert DeLeo]

Okay. Yes. Graceful bastards call you all.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, you can't follow me. So he insists. He insists that Brendan O'Brien come visit us somewhere on, I think, Lollapalooza.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So here comes Brendan on the tour bus, the classic. I'm playing him a cassette, some demos.

[Dean DeLeo]

Amazing.

[Billy Corgan]

And Brendan says, what do you think? And I give out my whole spiel, this sprawling record and this thing, and it's, you know, day into night and the whole Thing. And he goes, well, you know, I just did the Stone Temple Pilots record and we did the whole thing in a week. And I said, mother, that ain't the way this band works. This band works with me, junior.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

In front of a council with someone like you doing take after take.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Layering all the guitars. Oh, by the way, I'm also the bass player.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So it ain't gonna happen.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless st. God bless us. So. So. But he dangled you over my head.

[Dean DeLeo]

Gosh, I'm sorry.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, no, no. Because. But. But look, I just knew it wouldn't work for us. It had nothing to do with you guys, but he kind of used you as like a cudgel, you know?

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, they can do it. And I'm like, well, motherfucker, not this man.

[Robert DeLeo]

But he was. He. He wouldn't have the patience for that because Brendan's one of these guys.

[Billy Corgan]

That's what he said. Yeah. To be fair, he was like, I don't have that kind of patience. And I said, well, I do.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean? And we sat on an eight month journey which became that record.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we found someone in Flood who was willing to go into that insanity with us.

[Eric Kretz]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Take after take after take mine out this. Whatever the hell I was after.

[Robert DeLeo]

See, ultimately, when you listen to it, it's brilliant.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, thank you.

[Robert DeLeo]

No one really knows the insides of what it takes. And all those takes, it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, that's the weird thing. It's like you sit down and watch a movie. Do you really care? It either works or it doesn't. Right?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Debut record. Yours? Eight million copies.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Crazy.

[Robert DeLeo]

I know.

[Billy Corgan]

Beautiful.

[Robert DeLeo]

I know.

[Billy Corgan]

So what was the other singles on that sex type thing?

[Robert DeLeo]

We kind of. Well, we had. I. I was. I was doing guitar on a friend's demo in like 90, and I was coming up with these parts.

[Dean DeLeo]

That aerosol stuff?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I was coming up with some parts and I was like, oh, man, that's. I think I'm gonna keep that.

[Dean DeLeo]

That was great guitar playing, man.

[Robert DeLeo]

Plush.

[Dean DeLeo]

That was really good.

[Robert DeLeo]

Thank you. Plush was that song.

[Billy Corgan]

So you know, though, that Scott ripped off a pumpkin song in that song.

[Robert DeLeo]

Did he really?

[Dean DeLeo]

In which song now?

[Billy Corgan]

In Plush, it's. I don't know the names of.

[Dean DeLeo]

Are you gonna hit me for bread when we get out of here?

[Billy Corgan]

No, no, no, no.

[Robert DeLeo]

Actually, I owe you money, don't I?

[Billy Corgan]

There's. There's. And you'll know because, you know, the record in the pumpkin Song suffer. And I feel, and I feel. So I'm watching MTV somewhere in America and that song comes on and I.

[Robert DeLeo]

Hear that and I'm like, ah, yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

I have to go back and revisit that.

[Robert DeLeo]

Ah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Good rip, though.

[Robert DeLeo]

Hopefully he. No, I gave you some money.

[Billy Corgan]

We'll get to Scott in a second. I love Scott. Me and me and him. Me and him gotten just fine.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Here we are, three architects of. Of the chaos of the 90s.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, we do have the rare vantage point because obviously there's plenty of posthumous criticism and critique and what Shoulda Coulda. And you know it as well as I do. There are these people who do this weird winners and losers thing, like who won the 90s and who lost the 90s. It has nothing to do with record sales somehow it has to do with somebody in New York's opinion of who won, not people who actually are, by the way, still out rocking and melting faces.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah, right.

[Billy Corgan]

So from the inside, what was your take on the kind of the cultural part of the 90s? I was super critical, you know, and I took a lot of heat for being really critical of the falsehood of what I thought was happening. But you guys never seem to me be overtly political in that way. But sitting here now, how did you kind of perceive the social part of it all?

[Dean DeLeo]

Well, I mean, our first single took a very hard stance, you know, Talk. Scott took this, you know, first person stance of a, you know, basically a rapist, you know. And so, I don't know, man. I mean, I can appreciate artists that do take that stance and do that. I, for me personally, I just wanted music.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

You know, I just wanted music. I didn't want any controversy, you know, I like the path of least resistance.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you see. Did you see you guys as sort of. And I don't mean this any dismissive way. Did you see your music as somewhat escapist? You know what I mean? Like, I was always very into the social engineering part of it, which is part of my great weakness, but I couldn't help but tinker.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But when I listen to your music as a fan, like, it puts me in a good place, you know what I mean? Like, I don't feel like somebody's beat me over the head with anything in particular.

[Dean DeLeo]

I think a lot of our stuff, you know, Scott was writing most of the lyrics. I think it was very autobiographical of what we were kind of experienced leading up to something and what we were experiencing after.

[Billy Corgan]

So in that way, it becomes a. In that way it becomes reflective of the times. Right. You're in it and you're talking about it, and that's what resonates.

[Robert DeLeo]

I look at it this way, you know, I'm sure you have friends that come out and visit you on the road that don't play music. Yeah, they rarely listen to music. And they go out there and they go, holy. How do you do this? How do you. I'm tired after a day. Like, well, how do you. And I think, you know, it's one of those things where you get to. We all got tossed into this washing machine.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. But I'm saying, did you. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but did you. How did you feel about it all? Does that make sense? I know I'm asking it artfully, but I'm asking you to sort of read between the lines. Like, you know, it sort of was way. Like, my favorite word of the 90s was integrity.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

They use this word like a weapon, right?

[Robert DeLeo]

Well, we did silly things, you know, we went on Saturday Night Live and it was like, well, you're gonna play Plush because it's your hit right now.

[Billy Corgan]

No, we're not gonna play featuring Billy Corgan's.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna play Naked Sunday, which was a buried track on the record. We. We kind of, you know, You. It seemed like there were times when it was like, well, that's not cool. Right? It's not cool. And it was like, well, just, you know, let's just do what makes us feel good, which we ultimately always went to.

[Billy Corgan]

So in hindsight, looking back, because these are what they call halcyon days, you know, do you feel like you got your message across? Does that translate? I feel like you did. So maybe I'm answering your question, but do you feel like you guys got what you wanted across?

[Robert DeLeo]

Musically? Yes. Musically, yes. Yeah. Without a doubt. There's nothing.

[Dean DeLeo]

I took some time, but yeah.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

There's nothing I would look back at and do differently as far as my own playing. I still enjoy it. Look, we're still out playing these songs. We did something right, that we actually like to go out.

[Billy Corgan]

Having toured with you and listening to the crowds react to you, you know, night after night after night, it's really beautiful. It's really beautiful to hear.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well, when are we going to do it again?

[Billy Corgan]

Heartbeat. Touring with you guys is like. It's the easiest thing in the world. Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

Demanding, right?

[Robert DeLeo]

We have a good time.

[Billy Corgan]

Awesome. It's awesome, man. I play with you guys every night.

[Dean DeLeo]

Demanding.

[Robert DeLeo]

That was A great time.

[Billy Corgan]

I play with you guys every night for the rest of my life.

[Dean DeLeo]

Back at you, Billy.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

So, you know, can we. That was really a wonderful time.

[Robert DeLeo]

It was.

[Dean DeLeo]

Thank you so much.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you. Well, we love playing with you.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And listen, as you know, because we gotta give a little love to your drummer, Jimmy Chamberlain. He's nice to all the drummers. He's nice to all of them.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I've never seen him not be nice to a drummer.

[Eric Kretz]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. But I hear who can play, who can't play. He has this warm spot for your drummer.

[Dean DeLeo]

Ah, that's so sweet.

[Robert DeLeo]

That's great.

[Billy Corgan]

All he ever talks about is, that guy's awesome. He loves your drummer.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Robert DeLeo]

Eric.

[Billy Corgan]

And he's one of the only drummers I've ever heard him praise.

[Robert DeLeo]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

Praise. Not like, oh, he's all right.

[Robert DeLeo]

Like, wow, that would mean a lot to Eric. Eric's got.

[Billy Corgan]

Every time I see Eric, I say, jimmy Chamberlain loves you.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

Because that's a very select club. That is because, as you know, because we were in this game, you got Jimmy Chamberlain on the bill and other drummers who can't play. I've seen him go up there like. Like this with shaking. For real. I'm not even making it up.

[Robert DeLeo]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

I've seen him crush other guys. Souls on the drums.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And when we were in indie band, playing CBGB's and stuff would be some snotty indie band.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we get up there with our Marshall half stacks, as you know, and just stomp them to the ground.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Good times.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You took a lot of flack. I didn't help that with my stupidity here and there. But how did it feel to you with the kind of the criticisms that you guys got? I'm not interested in revisiting the negativity. I just wonder how you sort of processed it because everybody processes that different. I decided to go to war with everybody.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Scott seemed particularly sensitive to it. Is that. Is that accurate?

[Robert DeLeo]

Very, very sensitive to it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Very sensitive to it.

[Billy Corgan]

And. Sorry. But. Because I. When I got to know Scott later in. You know, I guess later in the 90s, and. And it seemed to really hurt him that he wasn't viewed as an artist. Does that translate you? Because you know better than I do. But that's my. That was my sense of it.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, I think so. I think so. He. He. He was really trying to create this thing.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

His own thing.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And to be quite honest, I mean, most of core was from Jim Morrison. It was that kind of Morrison derivative that he.

[Billy Corgan]

But isn't it weird? It's like, at the time, those stuff. That stuff seems super stressful when you're young. And now you look back, it's like. Well, of course, he's just trying to figure it out.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

How do. Who knows who they are? I mean, there are a few of them, but they tend to die pretty young.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean? And we know their names and they're on T shirts.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

The rest of us kind of got a kind of bounce around.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And what's weird is. Is he seemed to not always be in his identity or not know who he was at different times. But when you look back now, musically, his voice is always there. It's weird.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So it was more of a personality kink. Does that translate to the way I'm putting it?

[Robert DeLeo]

I don't know if he was always happy with himself.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that translates for sure.

[Robert DeLeo]

That gets. That gets into a therapy session that gets deep.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. And I'm not trying to drag you through that.

[Robert DeLeo]

No, no, no. He. But he. You know, he wasn't always happy with himself. You know, I think he was really struggling to find out who he was, Getting pulled into this whole thing. I mean, he was. At first, you know, it was like, man, I'm taking all the heat and all this stuff. And, you know, Dean and I just wanted to write the best songs we could write.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

You know, I think that's what it was. And I couldn't be a lead singer. I couldn't be out there doing that. I'm too sensitive myself to do that.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I remember talking to one time at a. It was like one of these LA kind of things, and he was there with, I think, his wife. And, you know, it's like you find yourself in these weird situations in life sometimes where it's like, there's me, you know, somewhere in the late 90s, trying to convince Scott of how great he is.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Was he listening? I think he heard me, you know, And I just remember the look in his eyes. It was like he was sort of intimidated by the challenge of it all. He wasn't intimidated by what I was saying.

[Dean DeLeo]

He had a tough time with all of it, man.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. So the reason I come into this story in this particular moment is because I know what it's like to stand there and have people focus on you and all that. So at least I was trying to do the. I get it. But, look, you've made it through this gauntlet this far. Here we are in 1999 or whatever was the year. Like, you've done it, we're here, you survived. And he was going through a period of sobriety and that was obviously very tough on him to maintain. So it was cool to have that conversation with him. It's something I really hold on to because I at least feel like on some level I was contributing to the positive side of the equation. And I'll get to where I contribute to the negative side of the equation in a moment. Did you guys kind of adapt to kind of an us versus them or did you just not see yourself as part of that conversation?

[Dean DeLeo]

No, it was just.

[Billy Corgan]

Just playing.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah, we were really having a good time.

[Billy Corgan]

See where you remind me this. Your. Your take on is very similar to James Eha's and the Pumpkins take, which is like, why are you stressing out about all this stuff? You know what I mean?

[Dean DeLeo]

Here today, gone tomorrow.

[Robert DeLeo]

James. Yeah, James seems like he would do that.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah. So we have that dynamic in our band where he's like, why you gotta be so uptight about 18 things you don't understand? So I'm not trying to get that out of you because I wish I was more like you in that regard where you can just be like, eh, it is what it is.

[Dean DeLeo]

It is what it is.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think there were far more positives happening than negatives.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's the beautiful part. And again, I saw that with you, particularly on tour, is you guys wondering, yeah, you won. I mean, it doesn't really what anybody thinks, including me. You guys won. You got this stack of music. You're still out there crushing it, you know, it's like, you won. Like. Yeah, that's the thing I respect.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because we can go back in time machines and say, you know, 1993, what were you thinking? You know what I mean?

[Robert DeLeo]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

That's all on the fly. It's like going to a quarterback. Like, why didn't hit the open receiver? It's like, well, the guy who was £400 was barreling down on my head and my ankle hurt. You know, I mean, it's like.

[Robert DeLeo]

And we're in our early 20s.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Robert DeLeo]

Lot to be thrown at you.

[Billy Corgan]

My making it about me self again. And I hope you remember this moment because it's something that I really hold dear to my heart. You guys put out. Now, this is one of those. This sounds like a Scott title. Tiny music. Songs from the Vatican. Is that the. Is that your title?

[Dean DeLeo]

Well, I kind of came up with this thing, Vatican Gift Shop. I thought it was such a great play on words and kind of stuff. It is, you know, Vatican Gift Shop. And I called Scott and I was driving down the 101 and he was like, oh, my gosh, I love that. And this is. Well, before we did the record.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

But when we were at the house making the record we have, we had those little magnets with all words.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Dean DeLeo]

On this, on the refrigerator. Yeah. And I just saw these words and these two words popped out. Tiny Music. I was like, I got the name of the record, Tiny Music. We were like, this is great. But Scott really wanted to use. So it became Tiny Music.

[Robert DeLeo]

So both your titles.

[Dean DeLeo]

Well, and I was like, dude, can we just call it Tiny Music? And he was like, really? You know, when Scott back me up.

[Robert DeLeo]

Here, I don't have.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't have a vote, but I love Songs from the Vatican is.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Songs from the Vatican Gift.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah. So it was kind of two things I came up with. But, you know, the first one, Tiny Music, was thanks to the.

[Billy Corgan]

Was that your third album?

[Robert DeLeo]

Third album.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. So that album came out. That album blew my mind. And up to that point, I wasn't an STP fan. You know what I mean? Looking back now, I realize how stupid I was being. It was more kind of weird jealousy. But when that. No, it was true. Because, look, you know, you understand the competition at that level, particularly at that time, was fierce.

[Robert DeLeo]

Sure. Like it always has been with other musicians.

[Billy Corgan]

I can't speak for other eras. You know what I mean? I can't. You know, look, you talk to Sam of Sam and Dave, you know what I mean? He was competing against Aretha Franklin and Otis Redding and, you know what I mean? Like stone cold legends.

[Robert DeLeo]

So, yeah, I think of that moment when, you know, Hendrix came to England and, you know, Clapton and Jeff Beck and.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. And they're all sitting there and go, here we go.

[Robert DeLeo]

Like, we're out of a job.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I think to be fair to us, we all had those horrible contracts where they could drop us at any time. And we were playing basically a non commercial form of music.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, our music at that time was not. It wasn't mainstream. They created radio stations to play our music.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right. We didn't really get. We didn't set out to write hits.

[Billy Corgan]

If we were. If you were echoing the Bunny Men, you played the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago and you were winning. You weren't playing the arena.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right, right, right.

[Billy Corgan]

And if you were, you were like, that was like a miracle.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, the Police or something like, you know, they crossed over into pop and Sting and all the whole thing that was. If you were an alternative world that wasn't even within reach.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And when those dynamics change with Nevermind, okay, now we're all in that weird pressure. So I don't know, I might just be rationalized. Maybe I was just jealous because you guys are good. But anyway, so that album came out. I don't remember why I had it, but I was living in New York at the time and I. It was one of those things where I had the CD in and I remember listening to the record and I thought, wow, this is great. I was like, I didn't know these guys could do that. So that's when I became an STP.

[Dean DeLeo]

Fan on Tiny Music.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes.

[Dean DeLeo]

Well, that. It's so interesting because that record is so bare bones.

[Billy Corgan]

But that was what it was. First of all, I was moving into more production. So in my mind to be more sparse. That takes guts. Then to wrap it with this kind of new wavish. I don't know if you take it that way.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

A little bit of Cheap Trick, a little bit of whatever. Cars.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Is that fair? I mean.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, that's all in the mix.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Is that fair? I'm sorry, I don't wanna. No, no, no, no.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah, a little bit, I guess. I mean, I. Sadly, I missed that new wave thing. I have a much greater appreciation for it right now.

[Billy Corgan]

What's your take on that record?

[Dean DeLeo]

I gotta think what's even on it.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, you know, it was a big bang, baby.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah. I was going to mention that song. So Robert and Scott wrote that and, and that's just the excitement of, you know, Robert coming to be like, check this out.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

Be like, oh, that's great. And, you know, I was tripping on that record.

[Robert DeLeo]

Tripping, tripping.

[Dean DeLeo]

And Eric kind of piece wrote. Wrote most of that musically, and that was such a. And, you know, we made that record and it's. It's the memories that. That I've made while recording these songs. You know, we, We. We made that record out in the beautiful Santa Anez Valley in this massive house. We all lived there and wrote and recorded and it was just. It was fun.

[Robert DeLeo]

I. I look at it this way. When you're young and you go into a studio, you're like a little overwhelmed.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah, right.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And you're like, well, it's supposed to sound a certain way because it's a big studio and it's a producer and everything. And, you know, I think as we. Purple was made in Atlanta in a smaller studio that was a little more. Oh, this is kind of a house. But it's. But it's. And then the third record was a house, so I think sonically, the. The atmosphere kind of dictated how the record was going to sound.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

I mean, Brendan brought in a Mackie board. I mean, that was. It was recorded on a Mackie board.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, yeah, it doesn't sound like it.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah, we really utilized the rooms, too. And so I know was. You know, we had the amps out in the foyer to capture that reverb was all natural, you know, like.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

We were cutting drums in, like, a cedar line closet and just lady picture silly stuff, you know?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Well, all I know is that that record blew my mind. And as the story goes, I saw you guys out somewhere in New York, I think it was, and we were somewhere at the same restaurant, and I saw you guys sitting over there, and I thought, I need to go over there and apologize.

[Dean DeLeo]

I remember this.

[Billy Corgan]

And I kept walking up and I saw you guys look at me like, oh, God, no, no, stop. Well, I'd been. To be fair, I'd been publicly critical of you because in my estimation, I was first wave, and you guys weren't the first wave. It was so stupid. And I sat down, I said, can I sit down? He said, sure. You guys were super nice as you are. And I said, I have to apologize. You guys are great, and I'm a huge fan now, and you won me over, and I'm sorry for anything I've said. And we've been friendly ever since.

[Robert DeLeo]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Cause you guys are great.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well, right back at you, man.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you. But I love that story because your music won me over. You see what I'm saying? Like, your music trumped my own bias. I didn't want you to win, you understand? I wanted you to fail because it'd be one less guy I gotta shove out of the way. You know what I mean? And I love that I was able to go, you know what? These guys belong. And you've proven that.

[Dean DeLeo]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

But it was that, for me was that moment where I was like, so now when I go back and listen to sex type thing or whatever, I'm like, this is a great song. You know what I mean? I'm not hearing it through the bias of like, oh, no, what's this? Another guy on the battlefield? I have to.

[Robert DeLeo]

There is a difference between the musician brain and the listener brain.

[Billy Corgan]

Again, to be fair to James, IHA James, Iha was always the guy that, when we would play with other bands, you know, he'd go over there with a beer and talk to them and be friendly. I'd be like, he's a sweetheart, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was always more like sort of like he didn't. He didn't. He didn't understand the combative aspect of my brain.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right, right.

[Billy Corgan]

I feel like you guys have been put on the block 18,000 times about Scott's issues. So when I set up this part of our conversation, I'm not here to find fresh stuff or tell me the story that'll break her heart. It's more of, like, I'm more interested in your inner navigation because I think it ultimately gets to what I want to get to, which is why we're all still here.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, in a perfect world, everybody would be alive. All of them, Kurt, all of them. Like, we'd all be still rocking and we'd all be arguing about who put out the last best album. But that's not life. Right. It's just not life. So. So, you know, in my band, we had two drug addicts, so I know that vibe. I know you guys had your struggles again. I'm not trying to do the therapy version of it.

[Robert DeLeo]

Not at all.

[Billy Corgan]

But. But when was the first time in that, you know, you started 89. Is that accurate? Yeah. So from 89 until whenever it went south. The first time. When's the first time you're standing there somewhere going, how do I navigate this insanity?

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think it was after doing that 93 tour with the Butthole Surfers. Would you agree?

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think that's when Scott kind of took a turn.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And was experiencing. I mean, look at, you know. You know, it's like going out on the road is like joining the circus. And you go out and the Butthole.

[Billy Corgan]

Surfers was literally a traveling circus.

[Robert DeLeo]

Gibby was his own circus.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

But Scott hung out with Gibby and. Yeah. And, you know, I think he was introduced to some things there that maybe tickled his addictive fancy.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so that's the first time.

[Robert DeLeo]

You'Re like, oh, yeah, it was early. It was early on. And I think, believe it or not, and we don't say this a lot, but, you know, a few of those records were almost not finished. And it was a sit down with Brendan going, what are we doing, guys? What are we doing here? Are we gonna finish this record? I mean, from purple to.

[Billy Corgan]

It must. Cause I've been there too. It must have just broke your heart. Here you are.

[Robert DeLeo]

It did.

[Billy Corgan]

You're rocking. You got a great band. You got the world in front of you, and it's like. And we're dealing with this.

[Robert DeLeo]

Your own guy.

[Billy Corgan]

I found the hardest thing in dealing with addicts, and my father was an addict as well, is there's no logic.

[Robert DeLeo]

No logic.

[Billy Corgan]

You keep trying to solve a problem logically, and there's no logic.

[Robert DeLeo]

And you drive yourself crazy.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, you drive yourself absolutely crazy. That was the greatest thing about me going to Al Anon, if you've ever been to Al Anon, was understanding, like, no, this is actually what everybody goes through. This doubting thing of this guilt. Or why can't I fix them? Or why can't I say the magical words, you know? You know I'm a wordsmith, right? Like, why can't I just tell you this magical thing that'll make it all go away?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And you know where Jimmy's addictions were prevalent in the first half of the 90s with the band, to the point where he ended up leaving the band. Then Darcy's addictions became part of the story for the. So it was like we sort of relived it. It with another person.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And. And then when Jimmy came back, then we had the twin version.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I'm uber empathetic to what it feels like to stand there. And you got the record guy over here, you got the manager over here, you got somebody's stupid girlfriend over here.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, in our case, you know, one of our band members once brought their drug dealer on tour. Yeah, the drug dealer was on the tour.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because. Well, they.

[Dean DeLeo]

Sounds logical.

[Billy Corgan]

It's logical. It's easier to get the drugs.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

We don't have to go out and score. They can just. They're right here.

[Eric Kretz]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

What's to worry about? So let's turn it to this, because you guys are one of the great brother duos, you know, I mean, there's only been so many, but you are, you know, I mean, did that. Did that come into play like you're being brothers, you know, I mean, because, like, when would go on in my band? It's not like, you know, James not my cousin.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right, right, right.

[Billy Corgan]

You know what I mean?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

We might have each other's spirits, man.

[Billy Corgan]

For sure.

[Dean DeLeo]

We had each other's backs. And, you know, we can include Eric in that too.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

It really. We completed records. We. We finished records.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

You know, here we are.

[Robert DeLeo]

Gosh.

[Dean DeLeo]

What's it been 30. How. When do we start doing this? 1989.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

So how long has it been? 30 some years.

[Robert DeLeo]

Whatever. I'm horrible at math, but, you know.

[Dean DeLeo]

I don't know the dynamic within your band, but, I mean, Robert and Eric and I, we still, you know, we still have this love and adoration and respect for one another. You know, it's not like, you know.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't want to. Well, I don't mean to be as trite as this, but maybe that forged something with you three that. That you wouldn't had otherwise. Let's look at the. The good part of the bad part.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Maybe I. I can speak for my relationship with Jimmy Chamberlain, that all those adversities have everything to do with us having such a strong relationship now, you know?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. You guys have been through a lot.

[Billy Corgan]

The ability to forgive, the ability to, like, let's just get on to the next song, you know, let's not pretend.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But there's other music to make, you know?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And that's what I love about what you guys are doing is, like, the way you solve the problem is just keep playing, keep making music.

[Robert DeLeo]

That's important.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm curious, because, look, we all know how talented Scott was, and again, you know, like, these great singers, the adaptability. So he leaves. There's all that. Now he's got Velvet revolver. That must have been hard. You tell me. But it must have been hard to watch your guy, and he was your guy, go out and do it with somebody else. You know what I mean?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And not saying you were rooting against him, but it's got to be hard because you're thinking, well, he should be here. Did you feel that way, or am I imagining that?

[Robert DeLeo]

I think at that point, I was kind of. He was in a. He was not in a good place.

[Billy Corgan]

So it was almost like.

[Robert DeLeo]

Like good.

[Billy Corgan]

Like. I'll take a break.

[Robert DeLeo]

Take a break.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Take a break.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

At that point, I remember driving down Melrose and he was. He was not in a good place before that. And I remember stopping at a stoplight and seeing what looked like a kid going across the street on a skateboard. And I'm like, that was Scott.

[Billy Corgan]

Really?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

Oh, my gosh.

[Robert DeLeo]

He was living in some apartment. Yeah. Like, off of Melrose. And I. It got to that point, I was like, that was. That was Scott.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah, I know what apartment you're talking about.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I mean, I certainly looked at it, like, again, my perspective as an outside person who's interested. It was Interesting to me that his talents were applicable in a, like, let's call it even heavier genre.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It's not that you guys aren't heavy, but you're not like, riff, riff, riffy.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So it was cool to see him make that transition and see this other kind of crowd come forward and kind of start to really celebrate what a great singer he was.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

That wasn't the worst thing in the world.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think it was a great opportunity for him.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Robert DeLeo]

And it worked out well for him.

[Billy Corgan]

So I know what this feels like, but I want to hear it from you. Okay. You're sitting there now, you're having this meeting. Some years have gone by. Should we open this door and do this all over again?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

What was the. Was that hard for you or was that. You feel like, okay, let's. Let's give it another try? Was it positive or was it, like, trepidatious, to use the fancy word?

[Dean DeLeo]

It was probably. Yeah, There was definitely some trepidation, but.

[Robert DeLeo]

There was a lot of history there.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

You know, a lot of history. And I think we stepped into it lightly.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Robert DeLeo]

That first day of rehearsal. Was that the first day.

[Dean DeLeo]

I know what that was.

[Robert DeLeo]

The first day of rehearsal.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. He.

[Robert DeLeo]

He didn't show up the first day of rehearsal in. In very good health. And we're like, all right, so we packed this up and we're right back to it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And it. And it brought up, I think that. That that day was. For me, it was like. It brought up a lot of ghosts and a lot of things.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm having anxiety because I know that feeling.

[Robert DeLeo]

You know the feeling.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And I remember just going, you know what? I'm going home. You know what? I'm going home.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But you did put it back together.

[Robert DeLeo]

Did put it back together.

[Billy Corgan]

And it was for. It was. Stayed together for a while.

[Robert DeLeo]

It was. It was good for.

[Dean DeLeo]

Did a record. We did a record.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Was it also called just Stone Temple Pilots?

[Robert DeLeo]

It was eponymous titles.

[Billy Corgan]

There's, like, four. Just called Stone. I don't know where to go with this, because I'm not interested in the dirt stuff. You know what I mean? It's like. It's not.

[Robert DeLeo]

I'll give it to you, baby.

[Dean DeLeo]

Ask me anything.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Oh, God, don't tell me no, because I think, look, we're all in the clickbait world, right? Yeah, I don't give a. About the clickbait. To me, it's the fact that you guys are still playing and where talking about These things is useful is to give people some context to why we endure, why we carry on, why we persist.

[Dean DeLeo]

You know, we love music, man.

[Billy Corgan]

That's obvious. That's obvious, man.

[Dean DeLeo]

We, you know, look, for me, you're only as good as those who are around you.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Dean DeLeo]

These guys make me look really good, you know, I love, you know, what Robert brings to the table and Eric and Jeff. I love it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

You don't really think about that often, but then when you get in rehearsal. Cause we rehearse when we do shows and tours, we go over to Eric's garage and we rehearse in his garage. But, you know, he's on a little amp and I'm on a little amp, and Jess on this little, you know, PA system. And we're kind of. We're not.

[Billy Corgan]

You're not. Full volume.

[Robert DeLeo]

We're not full volume. But out of that I can still appreciate. And you. I can appreciate the quality of our friendship and our. And our. And our chemistry.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

And the songs and. And that.

[Billy Corgan]

Sorry, interrupt. How blessed are. We have written some of these songs.

[Dean DeLeo]

Yeah, man.

[Robert DeLeo]

It's amazing.

[Billy Corgan]

What amazing thing.

[Robert DeLeo]

I'm sure you get teary sometimes when you're. When you're rehearsing.

[Billy Corgan]

It's amazing. You're like, this is pretty cool. Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

When you guys go into 1979, the place goes nuts. Like.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

My daughter, who's five years old, she'll say to me, daddy, were you young when you wrote 1979? Were you 5 years old when you wrote 79? Like, almost.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

That's funny.

[Billy Corgan]

Is there a message at this point that you want people to understand about your band? Like, what's the thing that comes to mind?

[Robert DeLeo]

I think we've.

[Dean DeLeo]

My brain doesn't work this way.

[Billy Corgan]

I know. I love putting you on the spot.

[Robert DeLeo]

I know, right? I think we've all.

[Billy Corgan]

See, that's why you're a good guitar player.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right.

[Dean DeLeo]

Thank you.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think we've all formed our own version of immortality.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay.

[Robert DeLeo]

Is that safe to say?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think we've all. And I think that that's well said. And I think, you know, the songs you've written, the songs we've written, and you realize that. You don't always realize that, but when you're together as a band or you're, like I said, rehearsing, or you're playing out, you look out and you simply go, holy, man. This is.

[Billy Corgan]

We.

[Robert DeLeo]

We accomplished something.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. And to back you up on that, when you play, I still see you like, I still see the Same you that I saw in 94 and 98 and 2002.

[Robert DeLeo]

Same with you.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, well, God bless you.

[Robert DeLeo]

Same with you.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm not so sure about that, but.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, man.

[Billy Corgan]

But what I'm saying is that your joy of playing, I see it. You know what I mean? And I know you was a man, too. That helps. But, I mean, I see it. You don't have a fake bone in your body.

[Eric Kretz]

No.

[Robert DeLeo]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

In fact, you had a heart attack on stage and kept playing.

[Dean DeLeo]

I did. Oh, my gosh, he did. He gave me a look from across the stage. We were in the middle of Wicked Garden and he gave me a look like, meet me at the drums. And I walked over and he goes, I think I'm having a heart attack. I'm like. I look at it like 5,000.

[Billy Corgan]

Do we stop?

[Dean DeLeo]

I look at it like 5,000 people. I'm like, that's what I said.

[Robert DeLeo]

Should we stop?

[Dean DeLeo]

He's like, no, just keep going.

[Robert DeLeo]

The show must go on.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Well, there's something sort of beautiful about wanting to die on stage, you know?

[Robert DeLeo]

Well, now when I get on stage, I have a little bit of PTSD that I'm to drop dead in front of a crowd of people.

[Dean DeLeo]

Did Robert tell you about our 57 number?

[Billy Corgan]

Well, I know your father died 57. You almost died at 57.

[Dean DeLeo]

I had a double bypass at 57.

[Billy Corgan]

He knew. He knew about this.

[Robert DeLeo]

Quintuple.

[Billy Corgan]

Quintuple.

[Dean DeLeo]

Quintuple. Sorry, I said quadruple. I left one out.

[Robert DeLeo]

All at 57.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

That's the card we were dealt, man.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Well, I'm 57. You just made me realize I said something. I don't know if you would remember it, but when we toured together, I had this beautiful moment where I was like, wow, these guys got like, another 20 years if they want it. Do you feel that?

[Robert DeLeo]

I think so. Musically, maybe. Hopefully, health wise.

[Billy Corgan]

I guess I'm talking just strictly musically.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Because we're in this weird thing now. I guess we should thank the Rolling Stones, but we're in this weird thing now where people will still want to see us play Crazy way late in this game.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So if we're on that timeline, we might only be about two thirds of the way through it.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Which is hard to understand given the adversities that you've experienced. Right. And the heartaches. It blows my mind sometimes, you know?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I had this epiphany recently where I was working on the new Pumpkins record and we decided to kind of do A. I tried to recreate the same dynamics that created the early 90s records in the band.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I thought it was novel to go back to the same brain space.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I didn't. I didn't. And. And hopefully when you get to hear the record, you'll hear the good and the bad in that. But I had this moment of, like, okay, I'm kind of back here playing in this sandbox one more time, and. And I'm thinking about my age, and my. My children are very young, 8 and 5. So that's part of the equation.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And. And I had this moment of, like, you know, I could actually start over. And I still have 20 years of start over.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, I could make a music that I've never made before that I know anything about. Kind of like what you're doing with your solo music. It's like. I think it's important for us to remind each other as friends that the public's expectation of who we are or who we were is not as valuable as our own.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well said.

[Billy Corgan]

And I think it's really cool as someone who admires both of you greatly and admires you as men, too.

[Dean DeLeo]

Back at you, Billy.

[Billy Corgan]

Thank you.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

That when I stand there and watch you guys play, I'm like, these guys got so much more music left in him. That's so cool. It's awesome. That should be our story. Like, if that's our epitaph, Right? Yeah, that should be our story.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Like, they rock till the end, you know.

[Dean DeLeo]

Died trying.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

But.

[Billy Corgan]

But you know what? We've all. We've all grown up in, like. Let's call it the baby boomer version, Right?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You technically qualify as a baby boomer child. Right. Latchkey. Do you have that stuff where you latchkey?

[Robert DeLeo]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Okay.

[Eric Kretz]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

We grew up, you know, Gilligan's island, and, you know, television was the. You know, life was television.

[Robert DeLeo]

Absolutely.

[Billy Corgan]

And, you know, and then, you know, we run into, you know, let's call it the 90s version. The record business.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Which was too old to be fresh. And. And basically, we were on the edge of the dying decade of it, but we didn't know that. Here comes aol, and here comes Napster, and all the things that cost us a gazillion dollars. And a lot of people don't take that into account. When we were being treated bad in the early 2000s about some of those dynamics, we didn't make that second round of Pink Floyd money when they introduced CDs, we lost all that bread And Gen X doesn't have a lot of statistical numbers to back it up. So even if we're popular with our own generation, there aren't enough people to actually go out and vote.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So for us to persist. And we're musical brands. Right. For us to persist and be making music, that's. To me, that's the victory you see, which is why I wanted to talk about all these things within that context.

[Robert DeLeo]

There's so many things that you have to boil down. And isn't that life, as you get older and mature, it all boils down and comes down to this little diamond that you have to kind of appreciate.

[Billy Corgan]

But isn't it crazy that you had it from the beginning, but you didn't know you had it?

[Robert DeLeo]

It.

[Billy Corgan]

That's like the Robert Coelho book Alchemist.

[Robert DeLeo]

That's a lot of sand in there and a lot of dirt and a lot of other stones.

[Billy Corgan]

If any part of my heart hurts. It's hard maybe for people to understand this translation. I hope you understand this translation. If any part of my heart hurts. Beyond just the obvious sorrow of us losing people that we loved and admired. Your guy Scott being one of them. Chester, too. It's this notion that everybody should still be here for the party. Like, the party's not over.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You could argue in many ways, the party's just getting started.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And it's. Again, it's important for us to remind us as Gen Xers, to not let even the current social idea of what it means to age gracefully or whatever, to limit our capability.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And I think you guys have always led with music, which is your great strength. It's like. It's in the riff, like, take it or leave it.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I think we're gonna have a good time.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And we're gonna rock hard.

[Robert DeLeo]

You know, I think the problem there with everyone that's not here anymore, it never was a party for them.

[Billy Corgan]

Maybe. Maybe.

[Dean DeLeo]

I think that's what's been so appealing for both myself and Robert is, you know, I don't know what it's like for you, but, you know, we're really within this net. We'll call it what you want. We're really within this net of, you know, people know us for stp and, you know, if you listen to lessons learned or stuff I've done outside, it's really nothing like it.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

And that's what's been so fulfilling, to go out and really express ourselves musically, that is, you know, we've been within us for our whole lives.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, yeah, you guys have done a wonderful job, I think, of balancing your responsibilities to, you know, STP Worldwide, the brand. But then you're always doing all this cool. I see you guys, like, you, like, you're playing with people. Like, how'd you. I know. You tell me some of these things. I can't remember who. But you've done like all these, like. Oh, yeah, I was playing with so and so. And who are some of those people you've been playing with recently? Like, you do. They're like the coolest. Like, no one calls me, like, Joe. It's super. I'm jealous again.

[Robert DeLeo]

Well, I think it's always been a goal to interact with the people that influenced.

[Billy Corgan]

Get to the good part. Come on.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah. Just different people.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm going to put some names here. Cause every time you tell me this stuff, I'm like, that's so cool. Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

It's just, you know, I played in Hollywood Vampires for a little bit. That was fun. That was fun. And, you know, we.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'll see you on stage jamming with, like, I don't know, Billy Gibbons. Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Gary Wright or.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Just stuff like that.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. You did stuff with the Dream Weaver, Gary Wright, did he pass away recently? He did, yeah. God bless him.

[Robert DeLeo]

So he was a neighbor of mine. He was kind of like a dad to me.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. What a great artist.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, God. He was just, you know, he. He got to hang with the Beatles and he's, you know, it's just interesting to me to listen to the music that I've. That's inspired me and know he was a part of that. You know that Harry Nilsson's version of the Bad Finger song, Can't Live Living without you. He played the piano on that.

[Billy Corgan]

Had no idea.

[Robert DeLeo]

That's Gary on that. And played on.

[Billy Corgan]

See, that's why. Sorry. But that's why I started the show and that was my pitch to the people I'm doing the show with was I want to talk to people that I admire.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And talk about stuff that we. I think we. We admire as musicians or as artists, not the public take.

[Eric Kretz]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Public take on somebody like Gary Wright would be like, oh, he had that one great song, the Dream Weaver.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. It's like. No, you don't really get it.

[Robert DeLeo]

Right.

[Billy Corgan]

You don't really get it.

[Robert DeLeo]

No. He was deep. He was deep and did a lot of going to India and meditating with George Harrison and very good friends with George and.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Just. He was. I miss it.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Robert DeLeo]

Miss him. Yeah, Miss him.

[Billy Corgan]

So anyway, I wish I had your life. That's what I'm trying to say. Okay, last thing. New stp, rock roll record. Somewhere in there. It's been a few years.

[Robert DeLeo]

Maybe around. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see.

[Billy Corgan]

What would be your reservation for not doing a record?

[Robert DeLeo]

Dean's working on a record right now, and we're both working on our own records right now.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Robert DeLeo]

I think that's.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm not trying to be crass, but like, no, no, no. Because I. You know, every time I go into a Pumpkins record, I go, okay, here we go. Like, I need it.

[Robert DeLeo]

There's a lot of history there. You should.

[Dean DeLeo]

You could do a bewitch. Just twinkle your nose and it's done.

[Billy Corgan]

That's why I love the concept of A.I. you know what I mean? This idea, just like, hey, sad, mournful, some hopeful D7 chords, 42 minutes. Sounds like, you know, sounds like. With a dash of plush by stp and like, okay, I'm going to go read my arty book now. But I'm saying, is there a reservation? Let me ask this, because sometimes when I get at the very. It's usually at the beginning of a process of making a new Pumpkins record. There's that voice in me that says, nobody's gonna care. And that's that nagging thing of like, oh, God, do I have to go through this again?

[Robert DeLeo]

Are you trying too hard?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Are you trying too hard? Are you trying to, you know, hang onto your youth way too long? Whatever. It's all those inner doubtful voices that artists have about. Let's call it the futility of our exercise. Is that in your equation at all? Okay, let me give you one little story. This is, by the way, I'm not trying to talk about myself. I want to encourage you by talking about myself. So when James came back to the band, circa 2017, 18, I took James and Jimmy out to lunch and I said, hey, I want to do this sprawling concept record. It'll be a sequel to Machina and Melancholy. I gave him the concept about a guy exiled into space, and they basically said, no.

[Robert DeLeo]

Oh, shoot.

[Billy Corgan]

It worked out in a way because it would probably be too much to put on the situation with us trying to kind of get our act back together, figuratively. So Pandemic. I'm sitting there bored out of my mind. I spent three weeks making a 1965 kind of psychedelic record, which I think you guys would enjoy. Some groovy bass on there.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And. And then I got to the end of that, and I was like, I'm just going to do the concert record. I'm not going to ask for permission. So did this record 33 songs, crazy sprawling concept. I called it a rock opera. Knowing that somebody was going to have a problem with me using the term rock opera. Just put it out there, like. Like, say, lead with your chin. Right?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Since that, our inner dynamic has changed and our outer fortune has changed. I'm not saying it's because of that record. I'm saying it seemed to sort of shift some energy with us. So I guess my encouragement to you is that if you do what you do, you might be surprised. There's something about the commitment to the insanity of the thing that makes no sense, that is appealing particularly to young people. It resonates. This is my version. It resonates to them as that's what they're looking for. That's what rebellion feels like. I'm going to do the thing that makes no sense at all.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And as I've told you, not everybody in my group always agrees with my excess, including managers and all that, you know, like, why, in 1990, I got pulled aside by a manager at the time. This is before Gish. And he said, just write the pretty songs. No one wants to hear your loud, nasal rock songs. He said, you're really good at writing pretty songs. And the girls love it. Just stick to that.

[Dean DeLeo]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, yeah. What I'm saying is, is you guys are really good at what you do. So just keep doing what you do.

[Dean DeLeo]

You Billy Corgan?

[Billy Corgan]

No, but I.

[Robert DeLeo]

But I.

[Billy Corgan]

But I. But I. You know, I get. I get the pause, but it's something about wading into the deep water of it that's sort of interesting.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Dean DeLeo]

We have a lot to be so grateful for, man. Like, we get to do this this far along, too.

[Billy Corgan]

But think of the guitar tones. Just think of the.

[Robert DeLeo]

I do.

[Billy Corgan]

Think of the tunings. I do. I know you do. I know. Like, you. Like when you lay your head on your pillow, you're like, well, I. Only right.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

I guess what I'm trying to say, I feel there's this shift going where there's an openness to our musical generation starting to take chances again.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

People want to see some leadership and, like, maybe a little sense of swagger. If we're not pop, we're not pop. We're not shiny. We're not perfect. You know, what is it that they really want from us? Beyond catalog, beyond greatest hits. Like, what would you have left to offer? The one thing you have Left to offer, and I'm saying this to you pointedly is the one thing you have offer is, you know, what actual rebellion looks and feels and smells like. Because you were there, you saw it both as an observer in the clubs, whether you're watching Black Flag or whatever. Right. You were there. Like you saw it, you knew the people, you felt the vibe. Right. There's this great quote in Bob Dylan's book Chronicles where he says, I would go in and work with these producers and they would want Bob Dylan 66, and I would try to give it to him and I just couldn't.

[Robert DeLeo]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

So I sort of finally addressed the existential question for myself. Okay, give me Billy Corgan, 1992.

[Robert DeLeo]

Go, go.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. 57 year old me picks up a guitar and goes, okay. I know how to play like that. I could play like that all day. I made that. That appears different. Yeah. Don't think the same. Not doing the same drugs, not chasing the same bad goth girls. Can't recreate the circumstance. But I can certainly put myself back in the moment of discovery for why Now? If I was in that same situation with that same riff, I would go, right. Why, when I was that age, did I go left?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

And the key factor was boredom, A restless sense of boredom. I didn't have a minute to be indulgent. And if I did, I believed in the indulgence. For example, a song you would know from us Chairbrok. The intro was one minute long. Who made the video? Kevin Kerslake. On a mountain in San Francisco. Of course, the record company comes and goes, hey, Cherbrock's five minutes long. Can you guys cut that intro? And I say, go yourself. And you know where we got that intro from? We started from By Tor and the Snow Dog from Rush. Do da da da da da da da da da da da da. And I was like, no way. That intro's great yourself. And they go, well, mtv. I said, I don't give a. Yeah. Who was that guy that was willing to stand up against the record company, MTV and say, I don't give a. I like the way my song goes. So try to get back to a space of asymmetrical. I'm going to chase excitement. So the one thing I did for myself was I refused to add any vocals or any melodies to any of the songs until all the songs were recorded. I'd never done that.

[Eric Kretz]

Wow.

[Billy Corgan]

So my only information was sit back on the couch and go, that track rocks. Or that track takes me somewhere now. Now that I believe in the track now I have to write a vocal and a melody that lives up to this. So where. What's difficult for us, I think, is if you listen to a lot of young people's production because of the way they work within technology, they're doing that restless version of things. Yeah. They're not playing like, oh, I can't. The guitar's in E. I can't change the guitar tuning here. That's. You know, we think linearly as rock musicians, so it's getting into that uncomfortable space of, like, mashing things together, putting riffs together that don't belong. It's not to chase something as much, to sort of re. Approach. Like, at what point did I stop using excitement as my guide and start using my intellect or my desire to sound like, I don't know, you know, free in 74, you know, because I like the guitar sound. Or you start to become more of a master of your domain. But there can be a. There could be a tendency to get too kind of into your own trip. You start losing the tactile thing of, like, I need to make people excited first.

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

You know, it's like the art trip, right?

[Eric Kretz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, here we are.

[Eric Kretz]

Here we are.

[Billy Corgan]

Let's not die.

[Dean DeLeo]

Let's not.

[Robert DeLeo]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

Let's live forever.

[Robert DeLeo]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

God bless you guys. Thanks.

[Robert DeLeo]

Thank you. Billy.

[Eric Kretz]

Billy.

[Billy Corgan]

Namaste, San Diego.

[Robert DeLeo]

Namaste.