← The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Erin Murphy (Bewitched) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
01:14:59
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- [00:00]
A
I've always had a strong sense of, if you have fame, use your fame for good and not for evil.
- [00:08]
B
The idea that you're cast in a show so young is wild.
- [00:12]
A
It's clear I didn't choose at 11 months to be an actor.
- [00:16]
B
Do you see something in yourself that you didn't understand at the time?
- [00:19]
A
I feel like I did that. I loved it. I am a very hard worker. I have an extremely high work ethic. When opportunities are offered to me, I love them.
- [00:31]
B
Somewhere in casting, makeup, stylist, teaching acting, motivational speaker and stunt double, there's gotta be one good story in there.
- [00:38]
A
I've never been. I don't think I've ever been called a failure, at least to my face.
- [00:42]
B
No, I just. I guess I just. I was really struck that you didn't seem to carry any of the weight or damage that so many people of our generation that were child stars seem to kind of struggle with.
- [00:53]
A
Some people see a glass half full, some see a glass half empty. I see the pretty glass.
- [00:57]
B
Okay, here's a selfish trivia question. Have you watched every episode you're in?
- [01:02]
A
Yeah, of course. Of course. I didn't say I'm not narcissistic and self centered. No. Okay.
- [01:10]
B
Aaron, thank you so much for being here. So nice to talk to you. A little bio just kind of set this up. It's things you already know, but it's to set up my thing. So Bewitched premiered on ABC September 64. And you were born, I believe, June or July.
- [01:29]
A
June of 64. So I premiered.
- [01:30]
B
I didn't have my notes, but it's in there. So you're just a little, little baby. And the show ran till March 72. There were 254 total episodes. We wished you were on 108, I believe, if that's accurate. I saw a clip where you said 108. So I'm quoting you.
- [01:44]
A
Yeah, I'm not even sure I've heard 108. 118.
- [01:48]
B
I've seen 103.
- [01:49]
A
Yep.
- [01:50]
B
The show was produced by Screen Gems, who also produced the Monkees. For fans of that period of time, Screen Gems did a lot of cool shows.
- [01:58]
A
They did.
- [01:58]
B
They said a little bit of a kind of counterculture thing.
- [02:01]
A
Yeah, a little bit. Memphis is a good example.
- [02:04]
B
Absolutely. Kind of in a weird coincidence, maybe Jackie Cooper, who was himself a huge child star, was actually the person who sold the show.
- [02:15]
A
That's true.
- [02:17]
B
To the networks, which I thought was so interesting because he too, like yourself, sort of faced like being a massive child Star. And then sort of facing, you know, what comes after that. The first season of the show, it was the number one show. I looked it up. I had to dig around. It was averaging 31 million viewers a
- [02:35]
A
show, which is unheard of. There are no shows that do that anymore.
- [02:38]
B
Think about that in modern times. That's like NBA Finals or something, right? That's every show. It was preceded when it first started Behind My Three Sons and before Peyton Place. If anybody remembers that show when you came on in season three, when you were two. Right. Is that.
- [02:58]
A
It was right before I was two.
- [02:59]
B
Okay. Geez. Wow. Season three, it was the number seven show. So when you came on, it was only doing a paltry 12 million viewers per show.
- [03:10]
A
Still top 10. I think it was the number one ABC show still at that time.
- [03:16]
B
So you got me there. So real quick, because I know you know the story. Is it true they saw you in a stroller or something? Cause the idea that you're cast in a show so young is wild.
- [03:29]
A
Yeah. It's not true that they saw me in a stroller for Bewitched. What happened was my dad had a business college in North Hollywood, and I have a fraternal twin sister. So my mom would take us two little twins in a double stroller. And everywhere my parents would go, people would say, oh, my goodness, little blonde twins. They should be on tv and that type of thing. So I was discovering and a stroller and did some commercials before Bewitched. But I actually, when Bewitched came along, I already had an agent and audition.
- [04:01]
B
Okay, I didn't know that part. Did. Have you seen the commercials of you as, like, a baby? Baby?
- [04:05]
A
Yes. Yes. There I. There's one that I. It's so funny because the first one I have on whatever that old film is called, so I have it on a reel where it was for Folgers Coffee. So I actually have that one. But the one that I was most famous for was with Ronald Reagan.
- [04:22]
B
Right.
- [04:23]
A
It was back when he was the spokesperson for Boratin detergent. So I was a little topless baby toddling around, and he's talking about using Boratin to wash your diapers. And so that. That one I have, and I post it every now and then on social media because people get a kick out of it.
- [04:41]
B
Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is Elizabeth Montgomery, the star of the show, Very Beautiful Woman, was married to William Asher, who was the producer director of the show.
- [04:54]
A
They were kind of one of the directors. He was.
- [04:57]
B
But he was the producer.
- [04:58]
A
Yes.
- [04:59]
B
So kind of a power couple thing. This is her starring vehicle thing that they'd sort of put together. And the reason you kind of come into this whole equation is she got pregnant and they had to find a way to sort of figure out how to keep her on the show.
- [05:12]
A
Pregnant, sort of.
- [05:14]
B
Okay.
- [05:15]
A
She was pregnant when they filmed the pilot of the show. So she was pregnant with her first child. Two years in, she was pregnant again. Since they're a couple, married couple having children. So, yes, at that point, they thought they didn't need to hide her pregnancy since Darren and Samantha were married and it was logical that they would have a baby, and they thought it would lead to kind of new cool storylines about is Tabitha magic? That kind of thing.
- [05:44]
B
I know you've been asked about this period of your life extensively, and I'm always uncomfortable to ask the same question. So I thought childhood memories are very interesting because they're. They're sort of dreamy. Do you have a dreamy memory of being on set?
- [06:00]
A
Oh, gosh, you know what I mean?
- [06:02]
B
Like beyond.
- [06:03]
A
Beyond something. I know exactly what you mean. A lot of is kind of dreamy. That's a good word to describe it because I have such specific memories of certain times on the set, and it usually revolved around animals. So when we had a baby elephant on the show, and I think I was maybe three, I might have only been two. I absolutely remember it because I remember what the baby elephant felt like, and I remember being outside the studio, you know, the stage doors and, like, touching the baby elephant and getting some of the paint on my hands and things like that that I'm not remembering from watching the show. So, like, things are. I say this to people. Your kids remember things that are memorable, like walking. Like, I remember seeing them walk on the moon when I was five. I remember, you know, sitting next to a chimpanzee and, like, playing with a chimpanzee and all that. So they're very early memories that are kind of dreamy.
- [06:57]
B
But do you remember the ambiance of a sort of a Hollywood set in that time period?
- [07:02]
A
Yeah. It's funny because even coming here today, people always say, well, be careful. There are wires and, you know, like, you're walking on a set. Be careful. You don't want to trip. I don't even look down because literally since I could walk, I've been on sets where they're wires and I know that they're there and I don't have to look down because it's part of kind of growing up as a kid actor.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah. Now, of course, you mentioned it. Your twin sister. So in the original conception, you're both on set, you said fraternal, so you were an identical.
- [07:34]
A
Yes, we're fraternal. So we really. We don't look any more alike than sisters. And even back then, if you take two kids and you dress them alike like two toddlers, give them the same haircut, put them in the same dress, people say, oh, they're twins. So we didn't look enough alike to be used interchangeably. So even from the very beginning, they would use me primarily from the front, and they'd show my sister from the back or from a distance because they couldn't get away with it. We didn't look that much alike.
- [08:03]
B
And this is because of the labor laws. You had limited time on set that you could be working and.
- [08:08]
A
Yeah, there's still child labor laws. They're stronger now than they were then. And they used to. I. I didn't know this part until I was an adult, but Bill Asher had told me that they would totally get around the child labor laws by saying, okay, it's time. It's time to switch twins. Bring Aaron off the set and bring Diane on. And they would bring me back. So they'd bring me off the set and bring me back on.
- [08:33]
B
Wow. It wasn't a question I had written down, but it strikes me, I'm trying to phrase it the right way because, you know, you're a parent, I'm a parent. The idea of putting a very young child in a pressure situation, now that we're adults, we understand there's cameras, there's timetables, there's union lunch breaks. Did you feel any external pressure on you at that moment?
- [09:02]
A
It's so much a part of my life that it doesn't seem weird. So when I think about it, I think one of the reasons they used me more and then used me only is because I liked it. I. I like. I like the lights. I like. It makes sense to me. I mean, not every kid would sit in a chair. They would tell me, sit in a chair. Say this, do this. And I liked it. So, I mean, you get it. It's not for everybody.
- [09:26]
B
I worked on a. On an animation project which hasn't come out, but they encouraged me to put my kids in it. It was like a virtual reality type of thing. And we were talking about it because we were talking about meeting you today, my children and I, and. And they were like, is that. Is that thing that we did ever gonna come out? And. And they said, you know, were we good in it? And I said, not that good. And my. My daughter says, why? And. And I said, because your brother, we call him Mr. Wiggles, he couldn't stop. And I'm on a set, and I'm like, telling my kid, like, don't move.
- [09:59]
A
But if it's animation, they can make that part of the character, can't they?
- [10:01]
B
No, no. But in the virtual reality thing, when we got back that the rushes of the thing, he's, like, jittering because he just can't stop moving because he's, you know, he's. At the time, he was like, whatever, six years old. It just strikes me, the idea of putting a kid in that adult pressure. And of course, we have different perspectives on these things now.
- [10:19]
A
Yeah. No, but I. Even growing up as a kid actor, I had great experiences, and I have always been kind of an eternal optimist. So I can see the positive in that career and maybe not being a kid actor and doing other things. So it's kind of, as a parent, you see what your kids want to do. If my kids wanted to be in virtual reality or be on tv, I would always encourage it. It's like, I loved it if they love it. Like, some kids love to sing and dance. If that's what their thing is, you let them do it.
- [10:49]
B
Well, we call in our family Showbiz Jeans. Yes, you just have the Showbiz Jeans. Um, so just. I'm still interested in the atmosphere this time. So is there always a parent with you? Who's. Who was the. Who was the parent that would, like, take you?
- [11:03]
A
It would switch back and forth? My mom and my dad kind of took turns being there.
- [11:07]
B
She have nice memories then, with both of them?
- [11:09]
A
Absolutely. But they weren't within eyesight, so, yes, they had to be. I know. Yes, they had to be on set. But I. I knew that when I'm on set, I'm paying attention to the director. I'm paying attention to my TV family. They weren't always, like, just out of eyesight. Sometimes they'd be up in my dressing room, which was, you know, up still on the same thing, but not right next to me. I mean, they had child welfare workers, I've been told. But, no, I never looked to my parents for comfort when I was on set. It was kind of like. Well, no, when I'm on set, I don't look to my parents. I look to the director.
- [11:47]
B
So the trust must have been there with you with that.
- [11:49]
A
Oh, totally.
- [11:50]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [11:51]
A
Yeah.
- [11:52]
B
Give me some sense of the workflow. Are you working, you know, twice a week?
- [11:58]
A
Yeah. It would depend on the script. They would messenger over the week's script, and I would look. As a kid, I'd look through it with a little highlighter and, like. And I would be excited, like, if I saw my name a lot. So I'd, like, highlight my lines. And it would depend. So if it was an episode where my character had more of a focus, then I'd be there Monday to Friday. If not, maybe three days a week. But I see. Would do. Every Monday, we'd do a table read. So we would all show up and they'd have this huge table set up.
- [12:29]
B
You'd be part of the table read?
- [12:30]
A
Yeah, every time.
- [12:32]
B
That sounds fun.
- [12:33]
A
It was fun. I loved it. So if you watch Bewitched, you know how we had the backyard, like, outside. That's where they would set up the big table for the table reads. I loved them because they always had, like, tea and sugar cubes and donuts and things. And we would read through the script with the writers and everybody there, and then they would change lines and sitting.
- [12:51]
B
Reading through a script with Agnes Moorhead sounds like a dream to me.
- [12:55]
A
Agnes Moorehead is a dream. I just. I can't say positively.
- [12:59]
B
I'm obsessed with her.
- [13:00]
A
You should be. She was fabulous. I mean, even as a child, I loved her like a grandparent. I have the best memories of her. I didn't know that she was famous. I didn't know anyone. You know, I didn't know even the concept of fame. I just knew that she loved me and I loved her. And it was fun working with her. And she would. I have cartoons. Like, she would draw me little drawings that I still have. And. Very special lady.
- [13:27]
B
I saw this cool picture. I don't know if it was a set shot where you guys were working, but you were on her lap in a scene. But I could tell with the way you were on her that you had a thing with her, because a kid would never. You were laying on her as only a kid would lay with somebody that they trusted.
- [13:46]
A
Yeah. No, it was. I don't know exactly how it happened, but it was a second family. You hear that and it sounds maybe superficial. It's absolutely true. I loved my cast members, like family members. And I remember sitting on her lap and feeling comfortable. And I remember she had these purple and green, like, Lucite earrings she would wear sometimes. And I remember just looking at them, and sometimes they say, aaron, stop. Stop with the earrings. Because I like do a. But now I. Great, great experience.
- [14:20]
B
One side question, because it just strikes me because of the nature of siblings, was your sister weirded out when it became more about you?
- [14:27]
A
I don't think so because I think my parents might have gone overboard the other way to compensate. So it would be things like I'd get picked up from work at the end of the day and like Diane went to the carnival and Diane. So it's like they would make sure that she had fun. And so there are advantages to both obviously. But I mean at the time I remember thinking, oh well, she's probably having as much or more fun than I am.
- [14:50]
B
Do you remember seeing yourself on TV at that time?
- [14:53]
A
Sort of by accident, if that makes sense. Because Bewitched was on past my bedtime. So I remember waking up and it seemed like the middle of the night and coming up and Bewitched was on and being able, being able to sit and watch the show. But it wasn't like every Thursday night we would sit down because it was Maybe on an 8 or 8:30. It was on. It seemed late at the time.
- [15:16]
B
Were you doing personal appearances too? I know that was kind of a thing back then.
- [15:19]
A
Yeah, personal appearances were a big deal. I think they kind of are now again. But back in the 60s and 70s it was a thing. So I had to take tap dance lessons because it was kind of a marketable skill, which is hilarious to me. So I would go and do a little tap dance. Terrible. Not a, not a great dancer, but I do a little tap dance, sign autographs, do a lot of parades. And my dad had this, this little pad made up where it say it was already pre printed. It would say my name is Tabitha, I am a witch. Things happen when my nose begins twitch. And I would, I signed my name once and then they turned it into a stamp like one of those rubber stamps. So I remember being places and kind of doing this like that. So it wasn't even really signing autographs. It was kind of like the 4 year old version of signing autographs. Yeah, but no, even things like that were fun. People were nice.
- [16:18]
B
So as you were saying, you know, you get, you get attached and you know, I know it's not the same but being in a band's kind of similar. You're together a lot of times so it becomes a sort of surrogate family. So you were eight when the show was canceled.
- [16:31]
A
Yeah.
- [16:32]
B
So was that hard for you? Because suddenly you're, you know, you're attached and you have a. Obviously a Working relationship. But it's extensive, personal, and I can imagine there were. There might have been people that we don't. Didn't see on screen that behind the scenes, you felt close to, like, maybe it's the makeup lady, the prop man,
- [16:46]
A
the makeup lady, the wardrobe lady.
- [16:47]
B
So is that hard for you to suddenly detach from kind of this working family?
- [16:50]
A
It. It was and it wasn't, if that makes sense. So we went on hiatus, which is our break, and we had contracts to do two more years of the show. So it wasn't like we.
- [17:02]
B
Oh, you didn't know.
- [17:03]
A
There wasn't. We weren't canceled. Oh, I think people always ask, why was Bewitch canceled? And it wasn't. We had a contract to do two, and I think it's like an addendum to do three. That it was a guaranteed thing. And then we went on our break, and I had plans to, like, go to Girl Scout camp, hang out with my friends. So we all got telegrams and letters saying, we have decided not to do the show. Bill Asher and Liz were going through a divorce, and they just. She especially decided just not to do the show anymore. So there was no goodbye. So it wasn't like we said, you know how at the end of a school year, you cry, you say goodbye. None of us had that. We had the see you soon, we'll be back kind of thing. So it was hard, maybe, in the way that, oh, I miss those people. I wish I saw them more. But I was 8 years old. I was excited to go to school full time, and I liked kind of like being a kid. So that part didn't hit me, maybe until later, that, wow, it's like the show ended and, you know, we'd stay in touch with Christmas cards. And I was dear friends and still am with Elizabeth Montgomery and Bill Asher's kids. So I stayed in touch with her through her children. But there wasn't social media, so it wasn't like you could send a text like, hey, I like your. You know, whatever you're doing. It was okay.
- [18:24]
B
So now that we've arrived at this point where the show's over, tell me. Maybe I'm projecting. But it seems like, did you just move on? And then you just got back into, like, normal kid life? Because I know you still did some work. There was commercials and things, but the
- [18:40]
A
way my contract was written and maybe some of the others at the time, I wasn't allowed to do other acting jobs while I was on Bewitched, so I couldn't audition for other shows or movies or commercials or anything. So that's why during the time on the show, I only did the show. So when Bewitched ended, then I started auditioning for commercials, and it was kind of that whole.
- [19:02]
B
Is that something you wanted to do?
- [19:04]
A
I don't even know. I think so. I mean, I liked doing it. I liked that there were friends that I would only see at auditions. So I remember being excited about that, like, oh, Jodie Foster's here, Kim Richards is here. Like that kind of thing. So I did like it. So after, let's see, the show ended in 72, we stayed up in Los Angeles until I graduated from Sherman Oaks elementary school in 76. And then at the time, our family moved down to Orange county, since they were all. It was a time in LA where they were about to do busing and things where it was kind of a chaotic time in Los Angeles and our family moved. And I would only really come up to Los Angeles if I had a job. So it would have to be, we want Aaron for a McDonald's commercial.
- [19:50]
B
But did you ever sit down as a family in this Kind of like. Because obviously the show is its own force. You know, there's a schedule, there's money, there's personal appearances. It's a machine, for lack of a better analogy, then that stops. Do you have a conversation around the dinner table at any point with your parents where you're like, do they say, do you want to keep doing this? Are you.
- [20:13]
A
You know, there was. There wasn't that. And it.
- [20:16]
B
I. I find that odd, though.
- [20:18]
A
No. Because I don't know that parents always ask children what their thoughts are on life and work, even though I was the one working. But go ahead.
- [20:26]
B
Let me ask in a different way then, because, you know, in my travels, I've met, you know, different child actors, and even I was friends with Lisa Marie Presley, who wasn't. But, you know, we had conversations about what it was like to be famous before she even knew what famous was. So I'm saying from the perspective of an adult, do you look back and. I'm not asking you to criticize your parents. It's more of a. Do you look back and say, I wish I had more say, or not
- [20:55]
A
really, because there were. There were times I felt like I had say, when Bewitched ended, I went to Girl Scout camp. A call came in to do the Waltons, and I don't remember the exact conversation, but it was almost like, we can pick you up at camp to go do this. And I Chose to stay at camp, and they let me do that. So, I mean, I do remember other times where I would be somewhere at a birthday party or doing something that was fun and getting picked up, like, oh, you gotta go. You've got a job, you've got an audition. So I felt like in that instance, I absolutely had a say, I think
- [21:30]
B
growing up in Chicago. Cause television for Gen X, we're basically both Gen X. Right. So I keep forgetting we're like. Because I grew up watching you on tv, it's like we're basically the same age, right?
- [21:40]
A
Yeah, probably we are. I'm 61.
- [21:44]
B
59.
- [21:45]
A
Close enough.
- [21:46]
B
Exactly. So what I'm saying is it's this idea of, like, I think growing up in Chicago, you know, watching television in a basement. Of course, mostly I saw the reruns, but the idea of, like, the romanticizing of what it would have been like to be in the Mickey Mouse Club or something. And when I talked to Mickey Dolenz of the Monkees, he was like, I was a child actor. Was kind of wasn't a big deal. Like, one day I was playing baseball, and the next day I was on an audition, and then I was back playing baseball.
- [22:15]
A
Yeah.
- [22:16]
B
You know, and some of my friends would, like. They thought it was. Who cares? You're on a TV show because it was Southern California in the 60s. Does that.
- [22:24]
A
It. It sort of does. It's weird. It. You hit it on the head where not realizing what fame was.
- [22:33]
B
Yeah.
- [22:33]
A
I just always knew everyone knew who I was, if that makes sense. So anywhere.
- [22:39]
B
This is my dream.
- [22:40]
A
Yeah. No. Yes. Yeah. So anywhere I would go as a child, people knew who I was. Like, hi, Erin. Like, everyone knew who I was. And that seemed normal because that's all I knew. But maybe it was because Bewitched was a show people loved so much.
- [22:56]
B
Yeah.
- [22:56]
A
I never had bullying. Like, I. I. Kids at school were nice to me.
- [23:00]
B
Wow.
- [23:00]
A
And I have always felt almost an obligation to be maybe nicer than others because of that. Like, I want people to like me. And it's not because it's not the weird child actor thing. Like, I want them to like me so I get a job. No, no, no. I like people. I want them to like me. I don't want them to think that since I was on a TV show that I should be treated differently. I kind of bend over the other way.
- [23:28]
B
This is probably an unfair way to explain this, but the reason I asked you to even be here was I started following you on social media maybe two or three years ago and I didn't even know.
- [23:38]
A
That's so cool.
- [23:39]
B
I have a secret account. You wouldn't.
- [23:41]
A
Of course you do. I don't. I don't. Lots of people do. I do not. I'm only me on social media.
- [23:45]
B
Anyway.
- [23:47]
A
I love that. Thanks.
- [23:48]
B
Yeah, you know, it's like one of those things, you know, you see some recommendations like, oh, cool. And I started following you and I was like, I was really struck that you didn't seem to carry any of the weight or damage that, that so many people of our generation that were child stars seem to kind of struggle with.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah, I think it's all perspective. I think I, being an optimist, I see every advantage of being a kid actor. I've traveled the world, I've made good money. I continue to be offered crazy, wonderful opportunities. I've met literally every famous person and musician and people because of being a kid actor.
- [24:24]
B
And everybody knows who you are.
- [24:25]
A
Yeah, everyone knows who you are.
- [24:26]
B
So by way of introduction, it's a good start.
- [24:28]
A
Yeah. But it's an I, I don't see the negative. I mean, I don't feel like, because I was a co star on a popular show, I've never felt, well since I did that I should be able to star in every show that's on tv. I feel like I did that. I loved it. I am a very hard worker. I have an extremely high work ethic. When opportunities are offered to me, I love them, but I don't feel like, well, they should be calling me to star on something else because I did before. So I feel lucky when I get new jobs.
- [25:01]
B
Well, but I, I, I'm, I'm sure you're aware of the general. We're playing armchair psychologist, but it's, it seems that, let's start here. Most people have trouble dealing with fame when it seems to go away. Yeah, I certainly remember when, when certain people seem to start slowly moving away from me circa one year, somewhere back,
- [25:22]
A
which, which is so weird to me. I, I don't see a problem with it going away because I feel like fame is such a weird thing. And I always, I, I do a lot of, like, I work with kids a lot and I do a lot of talking at schools and things kind of behind the scenes that no one knows about. But when you ask a child what they want to be and they say they want to be famous, fame isn't a goal. Fame is a byproduct of something else. Either being a talented musician or being on a TV show or an athlete or Music, you know, whatever. But it could stop.
- [25:55]
B
People get mad at me for interrupting, but I always think it's. We're having a conversation. It's not an interview.
- [26:00]
A
You.
- [26:01]
B
I swear to God. It's a true story. When. When I was in second grade, they had us fill out a thing and say, what do you want to be when you grew up? And the teacher was going through and it said, you know, Joey wants to be a fireman, and, you know, you know, little Louise wants to be a nurse. And they got to me. And the teacher goes, famous.
- [26:18]
A
Okay. You're one of those kids I talk to because fame is almost the downside of being successful. You're famous because of whatever. Whatever your talent is, whatever, you know, whatever your thing is makes you famous. The fame isn't the good part. Maybe having some financial success is a wonderful thing because then you can pay your bills. The fame just means everyone knows you everywhere you go. That could be not a good thing.
- [26:43]
B
Sure. So when you talk to kids, what's the. What's the general reason you're talking to kids is to sort of say, here's my story.
- [26:50]
A
And it depends. There was. There was a time, and it was. It was years ago, where I was kind of a motivational speaker, and I still do speaking, but I went. I would talk at virtually every school in Los Angeles school district and talk to junior high, high school students about bullying, peer pressure, being an actor. And it was almost like they would listen to me more because they'd seen me on tv. And I've always had a strong sense of, if you have fame, use your fame for good and not for evil. So it's. If someone is willing to listen to what I say, I'd rather have a positive message. So, like, if I'm on a red carpet, because I still go to a lot of events and things, if I'm being interviewed on a red carpet, I would rather talk about a charity I support or something that I'm doing that has some meaning to it rather than that I'm wearing Prada shoes. So I feel like if I'm being interviewed, I. I've always. I don't know, I lead with volunteer work. I. When I was a kid, I started volunteering, so it's kind of like, do something significant.
- [27:53]
B
Do you think maybe you have such a mature perspective about fame because you experienced it so young that you didn't have the mystification that most people seem to have with it?
- [28:02]
A
I don't.
- [28:03]
B
Because a lot of my ideas about fame or this town Los Angeles came from watching television and sort of, you know, basically projecting myself into whatever I was watching. Which is why I have very specific memories of seeing you on television. Because I would think that's so cool. That looks so fun.
- [28:24]
A
And it was. And I did the same thing. I mean, I wasn't just a kid on tv. I was a kid watching TV who would have been. Oh, my goodness. When I was a kid, I would have given anything to be on the Brady Bunch. I was the only kid on set for most of the six years. So the thought of when we did episodes and other kid actors were there, that was fun. So, I mean, I love this business. I mean, that would be the kind of thing that I would want to do.
- [28:49]
B
I see.
- [28:50]
A
Yeah.
- [28:53]
B
So walk me. Just. You take it however you want. Now you're back in a normal school, right? Generally, you're still working a bit, but you're not on. You're not on a hit show. And at some point in that gradated time between you grad to when you graduate in 1981, what's your sort of general awareness of, like, is it I gotta figure out who I want to be?
- [29:17]
A
Not exactly. I still. If you ask me what I want to do when I grow up now, I say, I don't know. I don't know. Tell me, when do I grow up and I'll figure it out.
- [29:26]
B
But I need your. I need to bottle your. Your.
- [29:29]
A
Your optimism. It's one of those things where all through school, like, all through high school, junior high school, I. I wanted to do all the things, like I was class president, I was a cheerleader, I was homecoming queen.
- [29:41]
B
You would make a fantastic cheerleader.
- [29:42]
A
Yeah, I was a good cheerleader. As I'm still at, like, Dodgers games. I'm a. I'm a cheerleader. I like little routines now. But I. I don't know, it's like I. I had a very normal childhood, and I even feel like being a kid actor. I had a normal childhood because I was still able to do things like be a Girl Scout and, you know, stuff like that. When the show ended, we were in LA for a few more years, moved down to Orange County. I thought, oh, we're moving away. I was gonna change my name and I thought I was gonna.
- [30:15]
B
Did you have a name picked out?
- [30:16]
A
Well, I was gonna use my middle name, which I hate. My middle name is Margaret, but my dad called me Peggy, so I thought, I'll be Peggy Murphy.
- [30:23]
B
Peggy Mercy.
- [30:25]
A
He wanted me Weather Girl. That was my dad's dream. For me. And for whatever reason, I. I thought, oh, dad, you're a. No, that's silly. I would have been the best weather girl of all weather girls. But I. I thought that was a silly idea. But I thought we would move away and I could be a new person and no one would know me. The first day of school, everyone knew who I was. I wasn't Peggy for even an hour. It didn't last.
- [30:49]
B
Okay, so let's call it post high school life. You're an adult.
- [30:55]
A
This sort of. I'm almost a grown up now.
- [30:57]
B
Very good. But I was struck by this. And I'm just going to sort of throw these at you and then we'll go wherever it goes. So I see where you've worked at different times since you became allegedly an adult. You've done casting, makeup, styling, teaching, acting, as you said, motivational speaker, and also a stunt double. So. So before we dive into each category,
- [31:25]
A
before we dive in literally to stow work.
- [31:27]
B
But again, maybe these are wrong questions for your personality, but I was sort of struck by the idea that. And I'm going off my own experiences, but there are times where it seems to happen more in this town than other places. But it happens even in Chicago, where I live, where people kind of remember you the way they remember you. And then they see wherever whatever you're doing at that instant and they sort of project it as like a form of failure. Did you get that? Ever where people were like, kind of like, well, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be over there?
- [32:01]
A
No, never.
- [32:01]
B
Wow. You must never have a blessed life.
- [32:03]
A
No, it's not even. I'm telling you, it's all in your perspective. It's all about how you think about it. And I've always still want to kind of do everything. I want to go everywhere I can talk to, literally can talk to anyone about anything. Because I feel like it's important to have a wide base of not just knowledge, but. But interest in other people. So, I mean, I'm. I. I don't know. I never felt. I've certainly never felt like a failure because my thing is, okay, I'm doing this, but what else do I want to do? What am I interested in? And just because you're doing whatever this is for everybody, whatever job you're doing now. If you're working in sales, I worked in sales. You do it. Okay. This is fun. I was the best at that. What else can I do?
- [32:48]
B
What.
- [32:48]
A
What do I want to do? So you can always change.
- [32:51]
B
So you weren't weirded out if people sort of turn made it about other things. You were.
- [32:55]
A
No, because no one ever said, you are on Bewitched. You're. I've never been. I don't think I've ever been called a failure, at least to my face.
- [33:02]
B
No, I just. I guess I just. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it, but I just. I get sensitive when people have. You know, my favorite thing is I'll be walking down the street and somebody will stop me, recognize me, which is always like. And you're like. You know, your natural reaction is like, oh, hey, how you doing? And then, like, invariably, somebody will say, like, do you still play music? And I'm like, I just played like. You know, I flashed the scene in me in Mexico in front of 75,000 people. I'm like, wow, this is so weird. But. But even more so now because of our bifurcated society with how people consume media. If you're not on television in front of their face every five seconds, they literally think you don't exist anymore.
- [33:41]
A
But I. I don't find that to be true. I feel like people who are drawn to you, whether music or acting or whatever, they kind of seek you out. There's a nostalgia that makes people feel comfortable.
- [33:53]
B
And you're okay with the nostalgia?
- [33:54]
A
Of course. I love it.
- [33:55]
B
Why not? I always makes me kind of uncomfortable.
- [33:57]
A
No, no. If people. It doesn't matter. It's like if people love something you did and they're telling you how much I love when you did that. They're talking to me about something when I was, you know, two. If they're talking about Bewitched. I mean, if you're talented and people love your music, a song meant something to them. That's such a huge compliment.
- [34:16]
B
I mean, seriously, I need to text you every day.
- [34:19]
A
Absolute. About your free therapist, I was gonna say.
- [34:22]
B
Can you explain this situation?
- [34:23]
A
Yeah, I could too.
- [34:26]
B
Okay. Talk a little bit about personal life. Oh, no. You. Actually, no. So give me one good story from your time as a good story.
- [34:32]
A
Go ahead.
- [34:33]
B
Somewhere in casting, makeup stylist, teaching acting, motivational speaker and stunt double. There's gotta be one good story in there.
- [34:41]
A
There's a million good stories. There's good stories for each one. That was kind of a thing. I moved to Arizona. I got my money from Bewitched when I turned 21.
- [34:52]
B
I did not stop there for a second, so. Because there's always those stories about kids, money. So your parents put everything into a trust or something.
- [35:00]
A
It's confusing. People think you either get everything or nothing. The way the laws were written back then, kid actors get something where it's. It's called a Coogan account or. Yeah, Jackie Cooper. Cooper, Cooper, Cooper, Coogan. One of those accounts. Both.
- [35:17]
B
Chowster.
- [35:17]
A
They were. But where a percentage of your money from a television show or movie is put into savings, it's only 10%. So 10% of everything I made was put into savings. My dad was an investor. So, I mean, it got the highest return ever, but it was 10%. The rest goes to, you know, wherever. To, you know, agents or managers or, you know, whatever. But. So I got 10%, and it was still a nice amount of money when I turned 21. Bought a house, bought a horse, lives on a little ranch. Married, started having a family. And then Arizona, I think still is, but was called a right to work state where you don't have to be in a union to do different careers. So I was. That's where I started teaching acting. I thought, oh, this will be fun. So I started teaching acting. I was able to be a makeup artist on big sets and work with, you know, Italian Vogue and things like that. And that went back to. I sold makeup at the May Company department store when I was a teenager, and I was really good at it. And so I. I then learned how to. They came once they taught all the makeup people how to do makeup. Loved it, learned it. Then I started doing that. I think I was 18, and I was, like, going to every May Company teaching people how to do makeup. Moved to Arizona. I'm teaching makeup artistry at an accredited school. So there are people who have licenses I don't have because I taught them, but. But it was fun. Stunt work. Stunt work was kind of thrown at me because they were filming an HBO movie with Virginia Madsen and they needed someone to do. She couldn't drive a stick shift. I love cars. I could drive a stick shift. So I don't really look like her, but I guess enough. Where blonde.
- [37:05]
B
Blonde from a distance.
- [37:05]
A
You know, blonde from a distance. So that was the first thing where I was doing stunt work. Then I got called in to do other things, like some horses, horse stunts and things like that, because I like to live life without fear. So if, you know, they say, aaron, jump off that. It's like, well, okay, it's safe. They've got the thing. They're okay.
- [37:27]
B
Six kids. Married three times.
- [37:30]
A
Six boys.
- [37:31]
B
Six boys, yes.
- [37:32]
A
That makes it more notable somehow.
- [37:34]
B
I only have one, and I don't know how you have six. That is just Toss. You must be an optimist.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah, I am an optimist.
- [37:40]
B
So correct me. Cause I know this is inaccurate. So take it where you want. In reading your bios where I can find them, they often talk about you as an activist. We talked about a little bit before we started rolling. You said, well, that's not quite accurate. But I love, I love to passionately support things I'm interested in.
- [38:00]
A
I, I don't think I would use the word activist. I don't know why I, I, but
- [38:06]
B
you, Sorry, but be fair. You, you were one of those people that came out, you know, at the height of the AIDS epidemic and really stuck your, your, your, your neck out there when a lot of people really backed away from this.
- [38:17]
A
Yeah, no, my thing is, I think it's important to have things that you're passionate about and things you believe in and, you know, organizations you support. I don't know that I would think of it as an activist. It's like, I like politics. I would never talk, I don't talk politics publicly at all.
- [38:33]
B
Because here's your chance.
- [38:35]
A
I know.
- [38:35]
B
No, but, but the reason we don't do politics. Although when we do politics, it becomes,
- [38:39]
A
yeah, no, but this is the reason I don't. I have a platform. I mean, on Facebook, I don't know why I think I have 400 and something thousand followers. I was on a show in the 60s and 70s. But what I do, every time there's an election, I encourage people to vote. Yeah, I wear my I just voted sticker. I'm not, I'm an actor. I'm just a person. It's like my opinion isn't your opinion. I think if you're lucky enough to have a vote, use your vote. So I encourage people to vote. I don't encourage people to support charities. I do. I encourage everyone, especially kids who are just learning about that, to think about what they love, whether it's animals or, you know, it could be anything, a library. Find something that you're passionate about and you support that because that's more meaningful than just supporting something that someone else does.
- [39:27]
B
So your son, Parker, he has autism. I have a brother who's, he was diagnosed with functional autism. We're not really sure what that means. This was the 70s, but that's a
- [39:37]
A
long time ago to be diagnosed.
- [39:39]
B
Yes, he was, he's, he's a rare chromosomal condition. And with the rare chromosomal condition, there were other things there that they couldn't quite. So they, that was the first time I ever Heard the word autism was like, 1970. Something was like, I wasn't. What is that? And of course, now, you know, autism, you could call it an epidemic. It's probably not the right word scientifically, but do you want to talk about that at all? I mean, sure, sure.
- [40:04]
A
I had have and had always been passionate about children's charities. So when Parker was born, I was president of the Junior Women's Club down in San Clemente, and I was supporting, like, I had the whole organization supporting things. Like there was a local therapeutic riding stable. There were, you know, things like that. So I had always been drawn to charities for different children's needs. And Parker was one of those kids where he had been developing. He had some language, and then just one day, it stopped. He had a seizure. He lost all language. And he was diagnosed at age 3. And so it's kind of been. As a parent, you want your kids to have the best life. And so I wouldn't say it's a challenge, but, I mean, other people would probably use that word, but figuring out what makes him happy and what will let him have the happiest life, because he is profoundly impacted, so he'll always need care. And he actually. It was kind of an amazing thing. He'd lost all of his language. And we were at a great elementary school in Calabasas, and they had a music program. And as a parent, even though he was in a special education classroom, we made sure that he was mainstreamed as much as possible. So they had him participating in their music program. So this was a child who had no language, didn't say, mommy, didn't say anything. And one day, right around Thanksgiving, he sang Beatles songs, start to finish. So we were all together as a family. And he sang Love Me do from beginning to end, over and over and over. And this is a room full of people just crying. I know. And it was. So for a very long time, music was what impacted him the most. And so they did a program at the school, living statues, where the kids would dress up as someone famous and talk about them. And since Parker couldn't say a speech, I had him dressed as Paul McCartney. And everyone knew Parker. And so his sign said, I'm Paul McCartney, ask me to sing Yellow Submarine or Love Me Do. And he did. And it was so. It was just that. That was the thing for a while.
- [42:24]
B
Yeah.
- [42:25]
A
Then it wasn't music. Then it was therapeutic horseback riding. So I volunteered at a therapeutic stable, and we got horses at the house. Then it was surfers, things like surfers. Healing where that was the thing that made him happy. So I think if you're a parent or a family member who has an individual with any special need is figuring out what they love and making their life, you know, as high quality as. Oh my gosh, he's at his 20s now, he's 23.
- [42:53]
B
What would you say to. Because like I said, I grew up with the same similar situation. What would you say to parents that are still going through it? Because obviously the numbers are very, very high. Yeah, it's very controversial. Why?
- [43:03]
A
We'll skip that part and I will say the part that's not controversial. There are a combination of factors, obviously that cause autism because I have six children and I have one who is severely impacted. It's a combination of genetics and environment and who knows what else. So there's not one.
- [43:23]
B
Well, that's what makes it so.
- [43:24]
A
Yeah, it's confusing. And if you meet, there's a saying, if you meet one person with autism, you've met one person with autism because it's, it's such a wide spectrum that, you know, there are people who are extremely high functioning and very successful who are on the autism spectrum and there are others who are non verbal and, and struggling.
- [43:43]
B
Well, even it's, it's become kind of more common in music circles now to describe certain artists as being on the spectrum as people recognize that that sort of brain capability to almost be flexible in space is part of what makes them artistic.
- [44:01]
A
Yeah. No, I mean there, there are famous painters who, who are on the. So it, it is what it is. But what your question, I don't want to ignore it was what I would suggest to parents and I do speak to a lot of parents with kids.
- [44:15]
B
Are you, are you still doing activism work within.
- [44:17]
A
I do. And it's so funny. Activism. I, I hate to use the word. I know. And it's not even a bad word. I just don't associate it with myself. So I'm trying to determine for myself if that's the right word. Word. And you don't have to. We don't have to.
- [44:29]
B
I like, I love language, so I do too.
- [44:31]
A
That's why, that's why when you're saying. It's like, I don't know if that's quite right, but I do, I am still actively involved. So I mean, there are a number of different autism related charities that I support and I'm passionate with. And I don't, I say this to people. You don't have to support an organization financially to support an organization. I am much more hands on the ground. You know, like feet on the ground, get. Get my hands dirty. Really supportive. It. In person. What can I do? So I always, you know, talk to parents, to large groups, one on one about. There are so many resources available, and it's kind of figuring out where you live and going to, if it's. There are regional centers and I think virtually every state finding out what resources are available for your child because there are so many things that help the family be more productive, that help the child be more happy and. And, you know, we're talking about lifelong needs. So it's kind of. Let's figure it out. Let's. Let's make sure that the family is getting support so, you know, the mom and dad can go out to dinner and there's someone who can care for the child. There are so many things available that I don't think people know about.
- [45:41]
B
Okay, thank you.
- [45:43]
A
This is a lot in one thing, huh?
- [45:45]
B
Oh, we're just getting started.
- [45:46]
A
I know. I love it.
- [45:48]
B
So the magic of the time period where you came of age on television is that these shows not only are still in syndication, but because of fast channels now there's basically somewhere there's a Bewitched channel where the shows are playing endlessly.
- [46:04]
A
No, it's. I think it might be a little known fact we're one of the only television shows where we filmed in the 60s and 70s and we have never been off the air. Bewitched has run continuously since we filmed it and it's still. Still on in 100 countries. That's just so. I mean, it's. And right now it's like Hulu picked it up a few months ago, all eight seasons, and it's on Amazon Prime.
- [46:26]
B
And it's because my kids knew that I was meeting you today. Now they want to watch. So that's perfect.
- [46:30]
A
I think they would like it. Tell them. Tell them. Hey, kids, tell them to watch. I started the first episode of the third season and I found that kids especially like that because that was the year in the episode where Bewitched went to color.
- [46:45]
B
Yeah.
- [46:45]
A
So I think they'd like all the.
- [46:46]
B
Yeah. When we used to watch in Chicago, they only showed the color episodes for some reason.
- [46:51]
A
I've never seen the black and white episodes.
- [46:53]
B
Really?
- [46:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I've all. And it's funny because I don't know why, but I think it was one of those things where I don't want people to think I'm conceited. I don't want somebody walking by like, oh, Erin's watching herself on tv. So I never went. I mean, when we were kids, the color episodes were the only ones that were on. Those were the ones in syndication in my mind.
- [47:12]
B
Find the color episodes are part of what I remember because the sets were always like lavish. Like. Yeah. Especially Agnes's costumes, those purples and greens and very kind of psychedelic and. Yeah, that's part of the memory.
- [47:25]
A
Yeah. I think even Nick at night in TV land, when they, you know, they brought back all those retro shows, they might have been one of the first to do the black and white, but I wasn't watching them. I watched. Yeah.
- [47:35]
B
Okay, here's a selfish trivia question. Have you watched every episode you're in?
- [47:40]
A
Yeah, of course. Of course. I didn't say I'm not narcissistic and self centered. No.
- [47:46]
B
So what do you, you know, there's scarce footage of me as a child and. And even though it's maybe total, maybe four minutes of footage, you know, you find yourself. At least I do. Projecting into like what I was thinking or feeling at the time, you know, because I just see myself smiling or whatever and I'm thinking I was miserable then or whatever. Whatever. What do you see when you watch yourself in those formative years? I mean, what.
- [48:09]
A
Yeah, it's interesting because not just Bewitched, but also home movies. My dad was such an early adopter to like the little movies too. But all the home movies are us, like waving and walking away. We just transferred them.
- [48:24]
B
I think it's everybody's home.
- [48:25]
A
Yeah. There's not a lot to our home movies. But when I watch Bewitch, it's fun for me and I really don't watch it that often. I mean, I need. Because I have grandkids now, I need to get them watching it. They think they'd like it. But when I watch the episodes, like Jack and the Beanstalker, one of the episodes where I was, you know, I was the focus of the episode. I remember so many things about filming, so it's fun remembering. Oh, I totally remember walking in and they had like the dry ice making the smoke and it's so. I don't know, I like all the memories.
- [48:55]
B
I mean, I don't know how to explain it. Do you see something in yourself that you. I don't know, it's like. I'm terrible at asking this question, but do you see something in yourself that you didn't understand at the time?
- [49:10]
A
Not really. Not really? I mean, I. I don't know. I wouldn't say That I didn't understand the time because I was keenly aware that we were making a TV show. It's not like I was there thinking, oh, well, this is, you know, that it's real life.
- [49:23]
B
Is there any. I don't want to say say this again. This is maybe too much projection, but is there any sense of loss? You know what I mean? Do you ever wonder like if I hadn't done. I know you think it's a positive,
- [49:34]
A
so I'm not sure you can ask,
- [49:36]
B
but is there a sense that. I don't know. Do you ever think about, well, if I hadn't done that, would my life gone in a different direction or.
- [49:43]
A
I know 100% that my life would have been different if I hadn't been on Bewitch. But I wouldn't say it's a sense of loss. I mean, when I watch the show, it's fond memories and I feel lucky to have that. You know what I mean? Especially in this day.
- [49:58]
B
It must be cool.
- [49:59]
A
Oh, it's so cool. It's like, it's like, oh my God. Like most people don't have that. And being friends with Elizabeth Montgomery's kids, I have more photos and obviously video with their mom than they do. So they might have like, you know, they have five photos, we have publicity photos.
- [50:13]
B
It's kind of like the extended member of the family.
- [50:15]
A
Oh, totally. But I wouldn't. I don't feel like I missed anything. There are only a couple times when I think back. Cause I'm self. I mean, I'm not a Pollyanna completely. It's like I can see the good and bad. I just choose, choose to remember the good, the bad. That the only thing I can think of is there were times like I would be at a birthday party and I had been told, you can't go in the pool because you have to work or you have an audition. And so I remember things like that and the mom, because they were our next door neighbors. Let me go in the pool. She said, I'll dry your hair. Your mom will never know. So I remember that because my mom showed up while she was drying my hair. And I remember thinking, oh no, this is not a good thing. Wait, I'll do one more. The only things looking back on my childhood because as I said, I like to do everything. I didn't get to really do sports because you can't have a ball flying at the money maker, you know, and. And I wasn't allowed to hang from my knees on like, you know how kids do that.
- [51:15]
B
You might hurt yourself.
- [51:16]
A
Like, oh, yeah. No, you can't. You can't break an arm. You can't. You can't do that. So as an adult, I went with one of my good friends. She was taking trapeze lessons, and I. I want to do everything. And I did it one time because I did it perfectly. So there's a person down below, you're up on this high trapeze. And I was there with a group of wonderful girlfriends. And they say things like, point your toes, let go with your hands, Grab the catcher. And because I'm so, well, directable, since I'd been directed my whole life, they told me what to do, and I knew I had to do it. So I was the only one in the group who pointed their toes, who let go and could catch the. The person's hands and swing. So I thought, okay, I've done it. It's like. It was fun, but I don't need
- [51:57]
B
to ever do it again because they did grow up in our kind of world as, like, a TV family. And I guess I'm asking more for personal reflections. So I just want to work through the cast a little bit because I feel like that's what's crazy about television. And again, we grew up in an era where television was so much more imprinted on our brains, I think, so much deeper than modern media does.
- [52:23]
A
Yeah, I think one of the reasons is because back then we only had, what, four networks? And so television was. They called it destination tv, where it's Thursday night, a whole family is sitting down watching a show. So it kind of meant more when you had to see it live.
- [52:42]
B
I see.
- [52:42]
A
Does that make sense? So it's like everybody was watching the same show, so the next day everybody would be talking about, you know, one of three shows they're on now. I don't even know how many networks we have. Everybody's watch. You don't have to watch it at the same time. Yeah.
- [52:57]
B
What I remember is this, just being stuck in the reruns. Right. So we saw the reruns like, 800 times.
- [53:03]
A
Yeah, we did, too.
- [53:05]
B
So if you just don't mind more so personal reflections. Because, you know, like, if you say to me, Elizabeth Montgomery, like, my memory is all based on what I saw on television, but I don't know the person at all, which is weird. So you kind of. And I know people do it to me, too, and I know they do it, too, where they kind of. They think you are.
- [53:24]
A
Yeah, it's. It's interesting. And I will answer about Elizabeth Montgomery, but you led me somewhere else. It's interesting on social media where people feel the freedom to act like they know you and so they're constant. Like if you go on, say, a Facebook page about any TV show, for example, Bewitch. If you go onto a Facebook Facebook page dedicated to that, the conversations and arguments people get into as if they know the people involved about. Well, this happened and this happened. And that's why it's like they only know it because they read it somewhere else. And so it's like they don't really know. So it's a weird. It's a weird thing. Yeah.
- [54:03]
B
That's why I thought to ask you, because, you know, for example, using Elizabeth Montgomery as an example, very beautiful woman, never really broke out, say, beyond the television acting ranks.
- [54:18]
A
Fair. She did films before Bewitched and she did some great TV movies after Bewitched.
- [54:23]
B
Yeah.
- [54:23]
A
So like Lizzie Borden, A Case of Rape. She definitely.
- [54:26]
B
Lizzie Borden, I remember.
- [54:27]
A
Is that good?
- [54:29]
B
She's so hot in it. By the way,
- [54:33]
A
what is the. Is the naked with an axe part?
- [54:36]
B
Hello. Hello. The word for I'm a goth. You're hot and you're holding an axe. But I guess what I'm after is. I think you'll understand the thread that I'm after a second, if you just bear with me. She'd Obviously, because of the way the systems worked out here in the 50s and 60s, she obviously had the looks to be a top actress.
- [55:02]
A
Yes.
- [55:03]
B
But back then, there was also that stigma about television.
- [55:07]
A
And there wasn't.
- [55:09]
B
It's interesting, tell me, because you were there.
- [55:11]
A
There really wasn't. Because at the time, and it's funny, because I was part of it, the golden age of television. Television was so new. So everyone did television. Agnes Moorhead had been nominated for an Academy Award and did a TV show. We had, like, Peter Lawford, who's a Kennedy, People were not afraid. There was not a stigma.
- [55:31]
B
Television. I don't think that came later.
- [55:32]
A
Maybe it must have come later and now it's gone again. Because movies start, you know, Nicole Kidman's on TV constantly. But no, there really wasn't a stigma.
- [55:41]
B
Maybe it was a 70s thing.
- [55:42]
A
Yeah. No, people. Yeah. People wanted to be on tv and because it's steady work and I don't think anyone understood the concept of it will be on forever. Because there are hugely famous, famous movies that people haven't seen. So they're constant things. Elizabeth Montgomery's father was famous. Yeah. Robert Montgomery, huge star. Yeah. Huge star. But people will say, but Liz Montgomery was so much more famous than her father. Father. No, she wasn't. He was nominated for Academy Awards. He was as, you know, as big as.
- [56:13]
B
He was a top male actor.
- [56:15]
A
Absolutely.
- [56:15]
B
But.
- [56:16]
A
But people of our generation, younger don't know him.
- [56:19]
B
Yeah, I was just, I was just. I guess what I'm trying to set up is somebody tried to groom her for, for bigger stardom. She was obviously a huge TV star. You're around this person a lot over an eight year period. And I know you guys maintain some relationship afterwards. So just give me a snapshot shot of her, the person and as the artist.
- [56:39]
A
She was not like Samantha. And I know, that's so funny. And I've spent so much of my life, I'm very protective of other people as well. So that's why it's like you asked me a question, I have a positive answer. It's like sometimes I have to think, no, you're, you're asking for more than the surface thing that people want to hear.
- [56:54]
B
And I want you to tell me more.
- [56:55]
A
No. And I'm an open, I'm an open book. So I will, I will always be candid.
- [56:59]
B
I'm not a dirt guy. I'm more like, I want to know the truth. Yeah.
- [57:03]
A
But no, she was nothing like Samantha. Just like, in a weird way, Lucille Ball was not I love Lucy, even though that's who we love and that's who we kind of want them to be. She was a businesswoman who was actively. Liz and Lucy were businesswomen actively involved with the production of their show. She was at a point in her life where she didn't want to do movies. She had a family, but she wasn't a stay at home mom. I spent a lot of my life thinking, well, I want to be a stay at home mom. Because my two biggest role models, my mom and Elizabeth Montgomery, were stay at home moms. It took maybe being a teenager to young adult to realize Elizabeth Montgomery was the furthest thing from a stay at home mom. She was on set working all day and they had a nanny. So you know what I mean? So she was a beautiful woman. But this is a kid's recollection, which may not be kind, but it's my honest recollection. I saw everyone come in before makeup at the time she had a stand in who worked on the show sometimes. She was, she was Sleeping Beauty in an episode, was Liz, was Liz's stand in. I saw her stand in come every day with her hair and makeup.
- [58:13]
B
Done.
- [58:13]
A
And she was 20 years old, and I thought, well, she is so much prettier than Liz. I called Mantha Mommy. So if you hear me say that, couldn't say Samantha. So I called her Mantha Mommy. So I remember being fascinated is one of the things that led me to be a makeup artist. Being fascinated by what everyone would come in looking like and just how transformative hair and makeup was. Was. So she is a beautiful woman. But it's like I saw her as kind of. It's like, you know how you see your mom and they. They look different at home than maybe when they go out to dinner with somebody. So I saw her as that. I also saw her side where she wasn't necessarily as soft and kind as Samantha. She was a businesswoman and she was serious and definitely had that side. She was also, and I've said this, she had a very dirty sense of humor, and so do I. I know. I got that from her. She was a guy's girl.
- [59:10]
B
Yeah.
- [59:10]
A
You know what I mean? Like, as I.
- [59:12]
B
There's a toughness in her personality that is. I think that's what makes her interesting.
- [59:16]
A
Oh, no, she was fascinating. I mean, I'm not saying things that are disparaging. You're asking what she was like. She was a woman who had many male friends, but wasn't really a girl's girl. Girl. So there's that whole. There's that whole thing. But no, she was great. I mean, absolute role model. Loved her.
- [59:34]
B
What was your relationship after the show ended? I mean, you said Christmas cards, but, like, when you got to be. When you got to be an adult, did you guys.
- [59:41]
A
That was it. Christmas cards. She was the mom of my friends. She. She definitely in opposition of how I am. She did a job and left the job, and that was it. She never talked to Dick York after he left the. There's some lovely stories out there on social media about how she showed up when he was dying and that. No, he left the show and she never spoke to him again. So there's that. That I can't quite wrap my head around as an adult because I'm still friends with my childhood friends and my high school friends.
- [60:14]
B
And to be fair, some people, that's just the way they are.
- [60:16]
A
Yeah. So it's like she did. Yeah. And that's what she did. So at her home, which I went to with her kids as an adult, there were no pictures of Bewitched up. So there would be, you know, photos from other jobs, but no Bewitched photos. So I Know, she liked the show. She was actively involved. She was great on the show, but it was a job and she moved on.
- [60:38]
B
Interesting.
- [60:39]
A
Yeah.
- [60:40]
B
I know we talked about Agnes Moorhead. So circling back to her, obviously, a very distinguished artistic career long before she. She was on the show. Worked with Orson Welles. Mercury Theater. Was on the famous War of the Worlds broadcast which set the world into a tizzy. Was in Citizen Kane. Yeah. That's the most fun.
- [61:01]
A
Magnificent.
- [61:02]
B
We're on the show. I actually practiced saying magnificent in the shower, and I still don't have.
- [61:08]
A
That's so cute.
- [61:09]
B
I don't know why it doesn't roll off the tongue.
- [61:11]
A
It should, but it's a good word. It's a good title.
- [61:13]
B
Well, you're magnificent.
- [61:14]
A
Thanks.
- [61:16]
B
But. So I know you. You look at it optimistically, but it seems to me, with her creative pedigree, was there any sense that this was a step down for her as an artist?
- [61:30]
A
Nope. Nope. And that's another one. I was there. She was happy to be there. She was professional as can be. She was nice to everybody.
- [61:42]
B
She just seems so cool. She.
- [61:44]
A
Yeah.
- [61:44]
B
Does that make sense, the way.
- [61:46]
A
Yes. It's in people.
- [61:47]
B
It's like somebody like you, like, I want to hang out with her.
- [61:49]
A
She just seems like she was. She was the early drag queen, actually, is what I. What I always say. But, no, she was. People always ask if she was intimidated or if I was scared of her. And. No, I mean, from day one, I just.
- [62:03]
B
She's just cool.
- [62:05]
A
Totally cool. Absolutely.
- [62:07]
B
Like, some people are just, like, 40 years ahead of their time. She's one of those, like, if she was, like, if she was a contemporary now, people would be fascinated with her.
- [62:16]
A
But they were. Then it's like, I think I'm asked about Agnes Moorehead as much as Elizabeth Montgomery, and it's because she was fascinating. I mean, smart and funny. I mean, just wicked sense of humor.
- [62:28]
B
I found this Dick Cabot clip where she's talking about how she owns a farm. He would have been. Would have been. Right around the time the show had ended.
- [62:35]
A
Okay.
- [62:36]
B
Did you know about that, where she had a farm?
- [62:38]
A
I didn't know about the farm. I knew about the big house that she had in Beverly Hills, like the flats of Beverly Hills. But, yeah, I knew things, like, she had an acting school, and she was very involved in kind of nurturing young actors and teaching them the seriousness of it. She definitely wasn't someone who would put up with people being late and things like that. She expected people to respect the time and process, you know, What I mean, I've been on sets where someone. Not that long ago. I've been on sets where someone will show up an hour late and that person should be and usually is fired. There's so many people around and there's so many people with talent and there's so many people who are beautiful that you have to have a certain work ethic to be successful. And so she didn't suffer for people who didn't.
- [63:29]
B
Now she's a, this is my parlance. But she's like a pros pro. You can, you can see it. You never see her phone in it in on those shows.
- [63:37]
A
No, no. And that's why it, it. I don't, I don't usually respond when people post things on social media. Every now and then if someone posts something negative, I'll come in, I'll do a strongly worded paragraph, mic drop and exit. But when people say anything about, well, Agnes. There's rumors that Agnes Moorhead didn't like Dick Sargent. And Agnes Moorhead was difficult. She. Most professional person ever. She. And I didn't even hear her say this. There's one quote she was attributed to when Dick Sargent came in that I don't like change. And you know what, I don't like change much either. But she was kind to Dick Sargent. She, you know, so I don't like when people act like they have, they have an inside scoop that isn't true.
- [64:23]
B
If you look at the, the glass half full effect that people still care about a show that's been off the air for 50.
- [64:29]
A
Yeah. I always say some people see a glass half full, some see a glass half empty. I see the pretty glass. Okay.
- [64:37]
B
Of course there's the famous two fathers, the two Dicks, as they say. So I guess because I know it's often told about this idea, he hurt his back and that's Dick York and Dick Sargent comes in. But I guess the only thing I thought to ask you about it all is this. Like from a TV perspective, it's just strange. You just change a character out and everybody's supposed to pretend. Only on television. But from an insight perspective, was it suddenly weird that like it's the same show but there's a different guy? Not to make it personal.
- [65:10]
A
Yeah, no, it wasn't weird. Only because I had been there. I worked three years with Dick York before Dick Sargent came in. And I saw that he was in pain. And even as a child he had this board. It was like a leaning board on set so he'd have to lean in between scenes. And he told me as an adult that one of the things that would get him through is he would sit and tell me stories and that he was a dad. So it's like I was a kid on set. So he was very paternal, and he said I would take his mind off the pain. But for viewers of the show, we. The last season, especially with dick York, there would be episodes written with dick York. We'd do the table read with dick york. Then something would happen where he couldn't be there. He was in pain.
- [65:56]
B
Oh. And they started writing him off the show kind of.
- [65:57]
A
And so, yeah, so there would be episodes that had dick York, and then we would not film it with dick York. So there were, I think, seven or eight episodes in that. In that season where he wasn't there. So what they did before they brought dick sargent in, they aired those seven or eight no Darren episodes in a row, thinking no one would notice. It's like no one will notice. We'll bring back darren. I'll think it's the same guy. Obviously, everyone noticed, but that was a. And I think bewitched is credited as having the most actors change characters of any show. And they reference it on, you know, roseanne.
- [66:34]
B
Two of the actresses passed away.
- [66:37]
A
Yes. The first. The first. Gladys kravitz. Kravitz passed away. Yeah. She was wonderful. I didn't work with her, but what a strange.
- [66:44]
B
I'm just.
- [66:45]
A
Yeah.
- [66:45]
B
God bless her. I'm just saying it's. What a strange thing that you have a show that has all this success and it's just like you're.
- [66:51]
A
Yeah. No, for that one, they had to hurt. They didn't want to write out the nosy neighbor. I mean, everyone still says Gladys kravitz,
- [66:57]
B
but such a great character.
- [66:58]
A
Yeah. So. So that was one. Oh, gosh. Marian Lauren, who played Chris, met Lenny Kravitz.
- [67:04]
B
That's what I was. So cool. Kravitz.
- [67:07]
A
Yeah. I went to a thing where it was like a karaoke thing a few years ago where he was there singing. I was like, he's a cool dude.
- [67:16]
B
So trying to think of how to approach this right the right way. Obviously, it's. It's all out now. But the Dick sargent was clause homosexual at the time. That would be the term that people would use at the time. I don't know what term people are using now. I don't want to offend anybody. But at some point during. During, you know, more of a gay rights stuff, he finally came out, admitted that he'd Been closeted. And I'm not asking you to remember as a six year old whether he, whether you recognize that, but looking backward as an adult and seeing and knowing him as a person, I mean, could you at least speak to that a little bit?
- [67:52]
A
Yeah.
- [67:52]
B
Because that, that seems. I don't know, it just strikes me as maybe particularly painful. I mean, here he is a closeted gay man. He's.
- [67:59]
A
But he, but he wasn't closeted on the set, if that makes sense. I mean, I didn't even know what sex was. I was a child. But at the time, he was an openly gay man in a relationship. And Liz Montgomery, everyone on the set knew that. It wasn't a secret. Obviously back then it was a secret from the audience because it just wasn't done back then.
- [68:21]
B
There's a book that's come out. I wish I could tell you the title, but it's, it's, it's. I bought it thinking it was highlighting the. The female stars of the 30s, like the MGMs, you know, this, you know, the Greta Garbos and stuff.
- [68:34]
A
Sounds like a good book.
- [68:35]
B
It is interesting. But. But I didn't realize it until I was reading it. That was really mostly about the closeted lesbians in the 30s.
- [68:44]
A
Yeah.
- [68:44]
B
And yes, there were, there were that Garbo was closeted, Marlena was bisexual, and Garbo and Molina had had a relationship back in Berlin and that was. They had a very frosty relationship in LA because they needed to not, not let everybody know.
- [68:58]
A
Yeah.
- [68:59]
B
But it, but the thing that strikes me and dovetails with what you're saying is that everybody in the business knew it wasn't like the people who were closeted to the public were out in the business.
- [69:11]
A
Right, right. There's a certain I don't like veneer to Hollywood. Like everyone wants their stars shiny and perfect and nobody's shiny and perfect. So just. It wasn't open back then. I mean, I think. I can't think of an open. I mean, Paul Lynde, he wasn't openly gay to the every. He was America's favorite bachelor if you watch him on game shows.
- [69:33]
B
Somehow I knew Paul Lynn was gay, even though I didn't know what that was at the time.
- [69:37]
A
Yeah. So, I mean, but, but that wasn't even discussed.
- [69:40]
B
Sure.
- [69:40]
A
So it was just, it was just as.
- [69:42]
B
Yeah. No, I just, it strikes me is. I don't know if you. I just was wondering if you had any personal observations that it's. He strikes me as emblematic of the times where here he is Open with. In his community, open with his working partners, which you were one of. And then. And then having to live this closeted life. And then in the, you know, in the. Let's call it the time of aids. And then the shift.
- [70:05]
A
I think when that was, it was probably the very early 90s when he came out.
- [70:08]
B
1991.
- [70:09]
A
Yes. And. Okay. And I know. Cause I was very closely tied to him around that time. And he came out because he was about to be outed by a tabloid. He didn't even have kind of the luxury to come out on his own time. I think that happened a lot around that time. But he and I were. There was. There's been talk every five years or so about doing a Bewitched remake. And we were actively talking about it back then. The scripts were terrible, so he and I were the ones that we don't want to do it. And we were the only ones who really would have. But I don't know. He. He and Liz rode in the gay pride parade. And so that was kind of the big thing, that showing not only, you know, that he was coming out, but also the support of him. And I asked to be in the car. I was a huge support. There wasn't. There wasn't room in the car for three or I would have been there with them.
- [71:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. I guess it's. I guess what I'm after is it's interesting now that we can look back because the show continues to be revolution relevant. I'm looking forward to showing it to my children because I know they'll enjoy it. I enjoyed it. But this idea that social media, the Internet has created sustain in ways that none of us could have figured on. Right.
- [71:24]
A
Fair.
- [71:24]
B
So there's still interest in these people, their talents, their personalities, and sort of what created the dynamics for the show. And of course, in the sense of bewitch, the oddity of switching out the TV to dad midstream is. Is always a topic of fascination. And of course, occasionally even shows up on late, late, late night jokes, you
- [71:44]
A
know, all the time. And it's referenced in movies and TV shows.
- [71:48]
B
Well, you know, my last question on here was like, you know, your last question.
- [71:52]
A
We're barely done.
- [71:53]
B
You can. We can. You can ask me whatever you want. I put something sort of general like life lessons. But it seems to me the life lesson isn't everything we talked about. Your optimism is so startling.
- [72:05]
A
Yeah, yeah, It's. This is my life. I mean, I think everyone needs to. If you take one thing away from it, this is Your life, you can make it whatever you want to make it, and whether that means, hey, I'm gonna go walk on the beach today. Like, you're. You decide what your day is. You can.
- [72:21]
B
You're getting me so motivated.
- [72:22]
A
No, it's. It's true, though. So it's like, for me, there were many years where I loved the entertainment business. I love it. I made a decision.
- [72:31]
B
I'm learning to love. I'm learning to love.
- [72:32]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, and it's like. And if you're doing it, you need to love it or do something. Something else.
- [72:37]
B
Oh, yeah. I've been there, too.
- [72:38]
A
Yeah. But no, I. I made the decision that when I had children, I wanted to raise my children. I. I saw examples of nannies raising the children of actors. So I did turn down acting jobs, and then I was lucky to come across things like hosting jobs and things where I was contacted. Would you like to be a correspondent? You. You can work three days a week and film five shows a day and be home, you know, make breakfast in the morning and be home to get your kids. So I have continuously, when my kids were younger, looked for things I could do and be a mom. And, you know, it's like, do.
- [73:12]
B
I just. I just got it all. I just. I saw the whole picture.
- [73:14]
A
Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, so I can do what I love and be a mom that I love and volunteer and kind of make everything work.
- [73:21]
B
Yeah. Well, when we were chatting just before we went live, I was kind of trying to explain to you the reason I wanted to do the show. And I think you're the perfect example of why I wanted to do the show, not just with you, but why I wanted to do the show at all, which is in the world that you and I grew up in, our only value is the greatest thing we ever did.
- [73:41]
A
But that's not our only value.
- [73:43]
B
No, that's. That's my point.
- [73:44]
A
It's not even.
- [73:45]
B
That's why I've enjoyed talking to you so much. Because. Because you took something that you didn't really have a per. Well, when you started working as a baby, it's not like no one asked you.
- [73:53]
A
Yes. You're just.
- [73:54]
B
You're working. And so that's why I had these questions about, you know, did you look back and feel like somehow you didn't have agency over the decision?
- [74:02]
A
Yeah, no, it's. It's. It's clear. I didn't choose at 11 months to be an actor, but I.
- [74:08]
B
That would have been pretty good.
- [74:09]
A
But I can choose how I react to that experience. And that that experience was the greatest thing ever because it's led to so many other things. And why I'm still working and why you asked me to be here, because I don't care about being relevant. I just care about having a happy life.
- [74:22]
B
But see, this is what makes you relevant because. And I think this is where American culture needs to mature. This is just my soapbox opinion, which is like, if you take people of value and you tell them you're value is the thing that we decide you have value on, which is like, we're just going to look at your whole life and decide, okay, these three years or this one album, that's your value. You're really missing the point because it's really about the journey, what you do with that journey.
- [74:46]
A
Absolutely.
- [74:46]
B
In your case, you were handed something very, very young and you've made the absolute best of it.
- [74:50]
A
Yeah, it was a great thing and I have a great life.
- [74:52]
B
Thank you.
- [74:52]
A
Of course, it's a pleasure.