Gavin Rossdale | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Gavin Rossdale on "The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan"

Title: Gavin Rossdale | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Host: Billy Corgan
Release Date: June 25, 2025

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1. Introduction and Early Interactions

Billy Corgan welcomes Gavin Rossdale, reflecting on their nearly 30-year acquaintance. The conversation begins with Gavin sharing his initial struggles in the music industry and his relationship with record labels.

"Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled." [01:15]

2. Early Life and Family Background

Gavin delves into his childhood, discussing his late start in speech and the dynamics with his parents. He reveals that his father was a rally car driver and his mother was a Scottish model who left the family when Gavin was twelve.

"I have this thing, anyway, about making music that... I couldn't figure out how to improve that silence." [02:07]

Gavin speaks fondly of his father’s gentle and witty nature, contrasting with his mother's vibrant personality. The divorce left him feeling abandoned, a sentiment he reflects upon as a parent himself.

"I was a very mixed up kid. I lived in a quite a rough neighborhood and then went to a really intellectual school." [06:00]

3. Musical Influences and Early Career

Gavin recounts his exposure to the punk scene in London, heavily influenced by his sister's punk style. Bands like the Sex Pistols ignited his passion for music and performance.

"The most beautiful artwork. Vaughan Oliver... I suddenly realized that it was possible to make rock music. Emphatic music." [23:08]

He also touches on his admiration for guitarist Joey Santiago and the impact of witnessing live performances by bands such as Jane's Addiction and Fugazi.

4. Formation of Bush and Navigating the Music Industry

Gavin discusses the formation of Bush, their initial signing with Disney's Hollywood Records, and the challenges they faced with record distribution setbacks following Frank Wells' tragic death.

"We delivered the record that was 16 stone to them... they threw the CD at him and said, not only are there no singles on this record, there's no album tracks." [00:09]

He describes the frustration of dealing with record labels that failed to distribute their music effectively, leading to Bush being dropped despite having a promising record.

"They said, you're being reviewed by the team there, the subsequent team there, and they dropped us." [37:34]

5. Relationship with Critics and Media

Gavin reflects on his interactions with music critics, particularly the challenges of dealing with negative reviews. He shares an anecdote about apologizing to a Rolling Stone journalist who harshly reviewed their album.

"He said, I would like to really apologize, guys, for my review of Razor Blade Suitcase... he said I savaged you." [48:38]

He contrasts this with Billy Corgan’s earlier criticisms of Bush, expressing mutual respect despite past tensions.

"I think of you like that. I think of this Pumpkins as such a... your musicality you brought to rock is... your records aged really, really well." [51:07]

6. Personal Life and Family

Gavin opens up about his marriage to a "magical person" who has profoundly influenced his life. He emphasizes the importance of his relationship in grounding him amidst the chaos of show business.

"When I met her, it was just magic and just instant and so... she changed me so much." [71:45]

He also discusses the challenges of balancing touring with family life, highlighting strategies like homeschooling his children to maintain a presence in their lives.

"I made the decision when my son was a baby that we would just include them as much as possible." [77:07]

7. Creative Process and Musical Evolution

Gavin shares insights into his creative process, emphasizing the importance of harmony, lyrical depth, and the magical accidents that occur during songwriting. He highlights his collaboration with producers like Steve Albini and Clive Langer, which shaped Bush’s sound.

"Every song remains a voyage of discovery... the alchemy of music is still so magical to me." [56:04]

He discusses the evolution of Bush’s music, from their punk-influenced beginnings to experimenting with elements of London’s drum and bass scene.

"We're going to create this thing where we get people used to, you know, that feeling." [65:18]

8. Reflections on Success and Legacy

Gavin reflects on Bush’s enduring legacy and the band's ability to resonate with new generations. He expresses pride in the band's contribution to rock music and acknowledges the collective strength of the music community.

"The alchemy of music is still so magical to me... all of these incredible Pixies, Fugazi, Jesus Lizard, all these incredible bands." [85:35]

He emphasizes the importance of internal competition and striving for excellence within the band.

"The competition has always been within the band, within ourselves, to be the best we can be." [85:12]

9. Recent Activities and Future Endeavors

Gavin discusses his recent projects, including his foray into acting and launching a podcast focused on culinary arts. He expresses a desire to stay creative and explore new avenues while maintaining his commitment to music.

"I just came across this thing of trying to create a way of staying home, not leaving to work so I could be around my boys more." [88:19]

He also highlights the ongoing challenges of balancing personal responsibilities with his career, particularly the guilt associated with touring away from his family.

"I feel that it's just an exciting time. I have the freedom to make records." [75:51]

10. Closing Thoughts

In closing, Gavin and Billy discuss the importance of authenticity in music and the enduring impact of their respective bands. They express mutual respect and hope for continued collaboration and support within the music community.

"Rock music... the better the presentation you give, the easier your life is anyway." [55:17]

"It's beautiful that they coexist." [85:35]

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Notable Quotes:

• "Because there's already too much music in the world, but not enough great music." — Gavin Rossdale [02:07]

• "We delivered the record that was 16 stone to them. They threw the CD at him and said, not only are there no singles on this record, there's no album tracks." — Gavin Rossdale [00:09]

• "I have this ability weirdly to put food together. I don't know, it's just... I've just been able to put food together." — Gavin Rossdale [88:19]

• "The competition has always been within the band, within ourselves, to be the best we can be." — Gavin Rossdale [85:12]

• "Every song remains a voyage of discovery. I'm always like, wow, what goes on if I do that?" — Gavin Rossdale [56:04]

• "Rock music... the better the presentation you give, the easier your life is anyway." — Gavin Rossdale [55:17]

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This episode offers an intimate look into Gavin Rossdale's journey through the tumultuous music industry, his personal struggles and triumphs, and his unwavering dedication to creating meaningful music. Billy Corgan and Gavin Rossdale's candid conversation highlights the complexities of fame, the importance of artistic integrity, and the enduring power of rock music.

Transcript

[A]

My understanding is you kind of get a deal with Disney's Hollywood Records and they just kind of stall you for a while. You kind of do that spin that they would do.

[B]

Well, what happened is they. They. We delivered. They delivered the record that was 16 stone to them. And that's the story is according to the guy from our label, Rob Kahane, that they. The record at the company, they threw the CD at him and said, not only are there no singles on this record, there's no album tracks, and threw the record at him.

[A]

Everybody, of course, talks about Nirvana, and there's good reasons for that, but really, it was the Pixies that I think cracked our heads open. We thought, we can be cool and play rock.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It seemed to all kind of mash it together at the right moment.

[B]

I was lost. It'd be fair to say that what I'd done exactly that point is, I had been in London and my second band had failed, and I was left looking what to do. And it's the first time in my life I was worried about it because before that I had, like, the brazen youth. Like, it will come right. It will come right. And that was just the most helpful sort of signpost on a bleak mountain.

[A]

Thank you very much for being here.

[B]

Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled.

[A]

We've known each other now about almost 30 years. Somewhere in there.

[B]

Somewhere around there.

[A]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[B]

And I was saying that I was so happy that. So not many things are that surprising. I got that call to come here and I was like, that's so exciting. Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Okay, so let's start at the beginning. I usually like to start different places, but with you, I want to start at the beginning. So is it true you didn't speak till you were four years old?

[B]

Yes. I think I had a, like, bossy older sister, so she took care of a lot of that. And for whatever reason, there seemed to be no point. Maybe I hadn't thought of anything good to say.

[A]

Well, it was. It wasn't a developmental thing. It wasn't tongue tied.

[B]

No, it just was a. Just a feral attribute. Early feral signs of life.

[A]

It's pretty early age. Decide. You know what? I'm just not going to talk.

[B]

Yeah, I'm just, you know, I have this thing, anyway, about making music that, you know, there's. Because there's already too much music in the world, but not enough great music. It's like you just should make things when you can improve the silence. And I couldn't figure out how to improve that silence.

[A]

That's an interesting kind.

[B]

I couldn't figure it out. And it was really, you know, I just sort of point what I needed. And I think my sister enjoyed the control over me. So I learned to be controlled by women at an early age.

[A]

We'll get to that. I didn't find a lot of information on what your parents were like.

[B]

Right. Yeah, very interesting. It's sad in a way because when they met my dad was driving rally cars. Was doing rally, but amateur. Right. Doing rally driving but like F1 track.

[A]

Type tracks or no road. Rally.

[B]

Rally like way down the thing. But he was in a little.

[A]

But this is where they go through the villages and almost run people over.

[B]

Yeah. And then my mum was from Scotland, from a small town in Scotland and. And she'd come to London to be a model in the, you know, swinging 60s or whatever. And when they met, they both. Well, he stopped driving and she stopped modeling to sort of like help, you know. I know to have a marriage. I thought it was a real shame they should have like continued on. Oh, okay. So they were together till I was 12 and then I grew up just with my dad.

[A]

But what were their personalities like?

[B]

Well, my dad is really. Was really. He passed a cup a few years ago, three years ago, four years ago. It's so weird. Everything is two years ago now. Covid destroyed all timings. Right. My brain just goes everything. If I. If it's not now, it's two years ago.

[A]

It's almost like pre Covid, post Covid rain. Do you feel that?

[B]

Yeah. BC literally. So he was a really gentle, really funny, sly like sushi chef. Like cut you up with wit but very demure, understated. And then my mom was really fun. She was like wanted just to. She was the best at. Out at dinner, like, you know, with a nice cold white wine and just like living the. Living the life. She was sort of. She lived like that. So it was an interesting balance between the two. So I think I. I have mostly my dad's characteristics I think a little bit more laid back. Like I'm not the kind of artist that is a room full of people just really wants to play everyone my new song. Some people want to do that. Check it out. And then everyone's sort of. Yeah, I. I'll do it. But it's. I'm. It's not my natural state.

[A]

Yeah. Why did your parents get divorced?

[B]

You know, I think my mom wanted a. Was looking for a. Just a. That bigger life. And I think that he Was a bit more not looking for that big life. And so I think there's a disconnect there. And so I felt that she was searching, which I thought was a really good lesson to learn at 12, you know, that just to understand why someone leaves because they're searching for something. And we reconnected when I was about mid-20s, you know, and I'd seen her every year, more or less, but it was. She had different husbands, boyfriends, and that sort of. It was a bit disconnected, which, you know, which is like really furtive ground for our world. It's really, really good. Yeah, that. Really good.

[A]

But I mean, is it, you know, it sounds a little bit like the John Lennon story where his mom kind of goes out of his life, she's around, but he ends up living with an auntie.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, so in this case, you're living with your father and I think an aunt, I mean.

[B]

Yeah, my aunt for a while and then she, she, she.

[A]

But was that painful for you that your mom's kind of like.

[B]

Yeah, around. Well, she wasn't around. She moved out of, actually England for a couple of years.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then she moved out of town. So she was really elusive. I don't know where she was.

[A]

Was she just sort of living the gypsy life or.

[B]

Well, no, she just had two or three stepfathers, husbands that she would move with wherever they were, so.

[A]

But did you feel abandoned by all that or.

[B]

Yeah, of course it was. I think about it most now when I look at my kids that age and I just think, you know, they, you know, if I go upstair and no one's getting the orange juice out of the fridge and they're like dumbfounded as how to put the glass and the orange juice together from the other side of the kitchen or going on tour. When I feel horrible, when I go on tour and I just. It's easier now because a little bit older, but when they were really younger, just that guilt, that hollow guilt. So now I reflect on that a lot and I think that, wow, because there's no therapy then. And no one said to me, ever, how you doing? You're right. I was a very mixed up kid. I lived in a quite a rough neighborhood and then went to a really intellectual school. So I had the kind of like the, the split life where no one trusted me, no one liked me for, you know, sort of caught in two worlds. And so that creates inner worlds, you know, and those inner worlds are the reason we're here. That's how we got here.

[A]

So I knew a little bit about your history in. In late 70s 80s music scene. You know that you were around seeing some of these great artists that are now considered legendary and influential. But at the time they were just kind of punk rock or. I don't know who you were particularly influenced by. I saw a couple things, but I know that's probably a little bit more specific than that. But you. I think it was attributed to your sister.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of turned you on to this when you were about 12 or something.

[B]

Yeah. What happened is she was really very cool punk. So when punk hit she was really just.

[A]

Is she dressed punk and was punk?

[B]

Yes. All the kind of the egg white in the hair and just right the, the. The. The turn of it and so it was like a real revolution. I mean it was a revolution in England still. It.

[A]

I mean you realize it still now. It's. It's such a watershed moment in music history.

[B]

The, The Italians with the green mohawks in Picadillo Circus are trying their best to keep it going. But it really had its moment then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it was exciting to be part of that. So for me I fit into that role of the kind of the, the, the. The cute young kid who just was going along with him like tagging along it. Yeah. And outside my house where we lived, the 31 bus right outside my house would go down to World's End. And that what we had there was on the King's Road was we had. The punks would be one side of the street and all congregating around seditionaries. Malcolm McLaren Vivian Westwood Shop. And then you'd have the Teds who. They were meant to be the. You know, they're all fighting. I never saw people fight. Is that like the leftover mods Ted's? Yeah, that was, that was the. You know, and then walking up and down. So we'd get 31 bus and we'd park up there and walk up and down the Kings Road all day. You know, go into. Didn't have any money, just like the, the bus money and then, you know, stuff like that. So the beginning of public image. Public image played on the rooftop of. Of this. Of this building. We didn't get in. We were just all in the. You know. Yeah, it was just like a 12 year old kid, you know, just. It was all happening.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

And so that really. That. What that did is it really shook fire in me performance wise. Like I just obsessed with the Sex Pistols and Johnny Lydon, just his performance and that whole Rich III thing. That whole stage thing was just. It was just. It was just brilliant. Everything about him was just. Was just everything that I sort of wanted to be, even though I was not. I was not a kid in a council estate. I was surrounded by council estates. But it just spoke to me that sort of rebellion and that sort of autonomy.

[A]

What about the rebellion spoke to you think?

[B]

I just think that the making your own way and sticking up for yourself and not, not make. Make you a brat, but just make you have that sort of tenacity to just follow your own way. Like, for example, I used to go to school every day where they'd sing Latin hymns. Latin hymns. And I'm not religious at all, right? But I think that's where I learned my sense of cadence and melodies, because I would hear those things. I always use biblical references in my lyrics, believe it or not. And so during that time, for example, I'd sit in the church and I'd see people and I'd be like. Because I really did not feel connected to a God, a living God, you know, or a God that people see as traditionally. I was like, come on, we can't all be. Come on. I'd be looking around in the congregation or whatever if I go to. And I'd be, are you really? You really. Is that. We really feel that, you know, And I've always disconnected from that. And then the biggest irony would be that my. I got a half brother who, with my dad, had three wives, but his first wife he had a son with, and that son went on become like a really successful person in the church. He's like, okay, Bishop, that's interesting. Yeah. So there's a real. Between the two of us, definitely a wide range of things. Yeah, a wide range. A wide berth.

[A]

So what were some of the artists that you saw in those kind of early punk?

[B]

Well, the bet the thing was not.

[A]

Just punk too, because I, I, I'm. I'm more of a goth, you know, new waiver, but, you know those. Because it's such an interesting period.

[B]

Yeah, well, at that time, I was too young to see the coolest bands that were happening. What, what happened for me is that I would. There was a record store at the top of my street. Like, the 31 bus was there on Fairfax Road. And then above it, this is like 30ft away, is the record store. So what that gave me was every week when I'd take my pocket money for doing chores around the house, cleaning stuff up wherever I could or not for my dad, I would get all these Singles. And I go up every week and I, you know. And so I just fell in love with all these different bands. X Ray Specs was probably my favorite. Sex Pistols, uk. Well, not the UK subs, but I liked. I like this guy Ian Jury.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Injury in the Blockheads. It just was Billericky, Dicky and all these. And what happened was. And then there was just some reggae thrown in. And then all these people around my house, all these like punks. They were like a couple of years older than me and I just thought they were so cool and they lived their life. There were squats with my sister. Take me to the squats. I just couldn't believe that these. It just seemed like freedom. It was like, you know, they were like anarchy and freedom. And they do the living squats around the corner from my house and we'd go to these mansion blocks and I was like just a token kid. So I like that spirit. So that just transferred. And really, the more that I think about it, even though I'm pushing maybe faster than you want.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

That's what got me into that performance of, you know, the time when I was making music in London. It didn't really. The. The whole Brit pop thing didn't have any performance connected, but there's nothing.

[A]

What was the Shoe Gazers, right?

[B]

Yeah. And I love my Birdie Valentine. That's one of my favorite bands. But not to go and see, you know, go and see the Throwing Muses. And it's not a big show, you know, and so I like that performance stuff. And, and, and that's what I liked about the. I never saw like. I loved the Gang of Four. I never saw them live. You know, they were just a little bit before I could get in places.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was really like people like Perry, you know, Perry and Jane's Addiction I saw at this really tiny club in Portobello Road. And that just was just one of those life changing moments of just like. Yeah. To be mesmerizing. Like I'd seen Jim Morrison on. On video and I'd be like, you know, he's got this sinewy way on stage and he's trying to, you know, and I was trying to work out my own stage thing and starring and, you know, being terrible and just like, what do the great people do? And. And that's why often it comes back around. And I think that that's what I love so much about the guitar sound that was hearing from, you know, from America with James, with Alice and Chains, with yourself. You Know, it just was. It was so much. It was exciting to me, you know, I didn't want to be people.

[A]

Now you're skipping ahead of my story.

[B]

Yeah. So my bad. But it just. I just. I've been thinking about it, so.

[A]

No, because. Because I. What I was. Where I was going to go next is. Is when did you pick up a guitar? Like, we're in this arc. Did you pick up a guitar?

[B]

Well, I got given a bass when I was 14 and I used to take you beginning. Began with that question. And my sister's boyfriend had a band. So what I did was like, just help them move gear around and go to rehearsal rooms and, you know, rehearse rooms like I do. It's like, you know, that. That dank squalor stink the worst. You know, everything sounds awful. Filthy mirrors, dirty sink. And I. And I love it.

[A]

You take.

[B]

I loved it.

[A]

I'm still like.

[B]

I know. I just. It just sort of felt that I was there to get something done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It just felt like I didn't. You don't want it. That everyone would do it. Like, if it was. If it was like sort of flying first class in Emirates to do. To do a band, literally too many people would be doing it. I like the fact you have to go through this rite of passage and you have to accept the stink.

[A]

Yeah. So when do you start playing the guitar?

[B]

The guitar was probably 16, 17, and just. Just getting really trying to understand how people wrote this sort of Dylan, Neil Young.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Busking.

[A]

Simple is more. You were thinking of it as a.

[B]

Songwriting all as a songwriter. I mean, it's only much later on that I just was. I started studying much more and I went to see a great guitar teacher I still work with today, the legendary Jean Marc. He's very well known in la. And I said to him, because he teaches. Was working with my guitar player, Chris, and I said to him, will you come and teach me? You know, I need to. I'm getting lost around the net. This is ridiculous. You know, I need to get lost together. And he goes, I said, and by the way, I'm really. I'm a songwriter. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not Chris. You know, don't. Don't be. He goes, yeah, but your compositions are awesome. So he was. So, yeah, it began like that. And, yeah, it just began like that. I think it began much for me more lyrically was what I felt that I could offer first. More than being able to come in and being any good at, you know, Rearranging four chords.

[A]

There's this. The span you were in Midnight, which I didn't know about till I started studying you up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I was kind of surprised. What's interesting to me when I heard it was you sound like you even then you're singing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Your cadence of your singing and your voice is already there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it sounds like the Gavin that we all know. But basically in front of a synth band is. That's a fair.

[B]

Yeah. Well, what happened is that I had this amazing. Because it all comes through ignorance from my perspective, it all comes through sort of pushing yourself. So when I was leaving school, I just thought it'd be so great to be a singer because that really was like.

[A]

Never crossed your mind before?

[B]

Well, yeah, I was in a band at school, but we spent most of our time discussing what the name of the band was and playing jam songs. We did of three or four jam covers. So it just was like nothing was. We couldn't get anything going. And then.

[A]

Okay, but what period of the jam?

[B]

Down the tube station at midnight.

[A]

Yeah. Right, okay. Because, you know, if you're a jam person, you got to kind of pick your period.

[B]

Right? Right. No, we didn't get into the style council, even though I did like those records. Paul Weller, I think is really amazing. Really incredible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I had the weird thing about just. I used to sing verses and songs into a tape recorder and say, the guy I didn't know enough. I'd be like, you must have a lot of chords. You know, I was given the chance to play and sort of people I knew my school. And I was like, you know, I say play like, you know, the Stone Roses, you know, it's really happening. I said, what. What are the. We're showing. What are indie chords? And I remember the guitar playing Midnight going. To me, that's just people that can't play very well.

[A]

That's kind of true in a way, but I was like, but they work.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but. But there's a barbarism to it that. That. That is essential that. That he was missing the. That is that I. I tuned too much later as I got better at guitar. And all that happened is that then the next band I was in, which had a number of names.

[A]

Throw one at me, if you could.

[B]

There's the little Jukes. There was. I heard about that head with two Ds. But then there's another bit. So that was the little Jeekes. Right. But he was a really good guitar player. He is a really good guitar Player, but really super bluesy. Now, for whatever reason, the blues don't sit with me. I don't have never really used the blues apart from it.

[A]

Can I say something I love? Because when Jane's Addiction first started breaking in America, there was an article in Rolling Stone and they were in the rehearsal room with James and the line that really stuck out in my head was, Dave was playing something and Perry said, no blues. Because if you think of James, they solved the problem of playing rock without sounding bluesy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean.

[A]

Right. Somehow they sound epic. They're playing the same chords, but it doesn't sound bluesy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which growing up in Chicago, you know, there's always the shadow of the blues.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Especially if you do A to D to E. It's like that's every blues song ever.

[B]

Right, Right. Well, it's just a sound, isn't it? That, that. And that's why I never like it. I always bristle when everyone says, cause Bush, rock and roll. Because I'm always like really proud of the fact that we avoided all. All. Lots of blues changes.

[A]

Yeah. I. I have a bit in here about that. So like hold.

[B]

I mean the.

[A]

Hold that thought a little bit slide.

[B]

Obviously is bluesy that we did all over the first record and that thing. But.

[A]

But I don't think I. I think you've completely avoided this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we have. It's a certain sound and I'm.

[A]

But let me get to that, please. What I try to do when I talk to somebody that I like is I try to think like, what don't I know? And oftentimes what surprises me is there's a lot. A lot of things I thought I knew. I don't know. Right. And. And then when I fill it in, I get a much more three dimensional picture of what actually happened.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I mean, and especially because we were both doing it at the same time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, your memory is like. Like images flashing by in a window. But to slow it all down and go back through it, like made me appreciate things about you that I hadn't appreciated before. So that's kind of what I want to get at. But I. You got to let me get there. So when did you first start hearing. You know, obviously there was things like the Valentine's My bloody Valentine in UK as early as I think 89 that was going on. And there was bands like Ride and stuff like that. And then obviously across the pond, as you all say, there was the Seattle thing. There was what was going on in Minneapolis like, what part of all that. Right. What. What part of all that, like, first got your attention and around what year?

[B]

The year might be tough. Whenever Surfer Rosa, I was obsessed with four AD records, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, it's 8088. 4. Four AD surfer Rosa. 88. 8 or 9?

[B]

8889. So what happened was.

[A]

Is that the album After Do Little?

[B]

No, it's before.

[A]

Okay, Right.

[B]

So it was like.

[A]

You're talking about the Pixie. So that's. What the hell.

[B]

So what happened is. Is that like, Aerosmith were ruling the world. Or like hair metal bands, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

They're doing rock now. When I would listen to those, I'd enjoy Aerosmith, which are super bluesy, who are super boozy. But only because I just couldn't believe his voice is just the most incredible instrument, you know, One of the greatest voices of all time, I think. So I loved him, but I felt really disconnected from any ability to go anywhere near that. That style of music. Yeah. It just. It just seemed I didn't have the pants tight enough. So when I. When I. When I played the Pixies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I remember the moment because the most beautiful artwork. Vaughan Oliver, who I subsequently hired to do Razor Blade Suitcase record, because I love them so much. If I couldn't get signed to the label, I might as well use their art director. Right. And. And when I put that record on and I open just the. The. The. Steve's sound. Well, it was the sound of the Pixies, but actually Steve's sound, which is just Steve's drum sound. And then hearing, you know, Michael Frank Black, whatever, singing, I suddenly realized that was. That it was possible to make rock music. Emphatic music.

[A]

I think we all had the same realization as the thing like that. I think we all had the same realization almost the exact same time.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Well, cool. Cobain talked about it a lot.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I saw them in that exact same period, and I had the same revelation. It's like, how do you. How are you generating this power? But you don't sound like all those other bands.

[B]

Is that what happened?

[A]

It was. Everybody, of course, talks about Nirvana, and there's good reasons for that, but really, it was the Pixies that I think cracked our heads open. We thought, we can be cool and play rock.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It seemed to all kind of mash it together at the right moment.

[B]

I was lost. It'd be fair to say that what I'd done exactly that. Point is, I had been in London and my second band had failed And I was left looking what to do. And it's the first time in my life I was worried about it, because before they had, like, brazen youth. Like, it will come right. It will come right. And that was just the most helpful sort of signpost in the. In a. In a bleak. On a bleak mountain of where to head towards, you know, and then you have to make your way, you know, Kim being the perfect foil for him. You know, there's certain. So many things about it you can't emulate, you can't do. They were unbelievable. But that was where I really felt liberated, that there was hope, there was a. There was a way forward. You know, you have to forge your own way. And if you look at. Then you get into, like, you find Fugazi and you find, you know who. I just think they're the greatest band. That turned me onto the Jesus Lizard. That's why I was listening to all of. All of Steve.

[A]

We had a lot of that in Chicago because Jesus was Chicago. And everybody would come through and play the metro in Chicago. So we got every one of those bands. I saw Happy Mondays open for the Pixies undo little.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Packed metro. I mean, you couldn't move, right? And of course, the Mondays were an hour and a half late because the lead singer was getting a VD shot.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So the Mondays made everybody wait an hour and a half to start the gig. And when the Mondays came on to play, the crowd boot him out of the building. And the Mondays being Manchester, right, one of these, and they just started playing. And by the end, the crowd loved him. I've never seen a band turn a hating, crowing object crowd into loving them in 60 minutes. Like I've seen in that gig. And then after that was in the Pixies doing Doolittle in that moment in Chicago, you know, with Steve and his whole world there, because obviously the connection. So that was really. Those were really interesting ground zero moments, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Saw Soundgarden same time, you know, Louder Than Love, that tour.

[B]

Yeah, that was. That was. You see, that. That, for me was just the record because I was stuck in London. So I would hear that record when I heard that. Louder. Yeah, I just. I just. I. I feel that confusion of, like, one.

[A]

What is this?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, like.

[A]

And I remember the first time I heard them, I think I couldn't tell if they were taking the piss. And actually, some people I knew were like, oh, it's a joke. They're not really playing heavy. They're pretending to play heavy, right? But Then you'd listen to Chris singing. You think, I don't know if they're pretending. There's no way you could sing like that.

[B]

And, of course, Alice in Chains.

[A]

Oh, great. Fantastic.

[B]

And that man in the box was, you know, Dave Jordan. It just was like there was hope. It was just sort of. It felt like that was when it made sense that I began my journey really focusing on the words and thinking that other people were doing the music and inadvertently, people weren't doing the music. So when my second band, where the guy wouldn't let me play, I wasn't. You know, he didn't want me to play guitar because he was a really, really good guitar player. But the point about it is, as we know, it's not about being the best guitar players, having the right chords to support the song, even.

[A]

Even the feelings.

[B]

Right. So to support the song. And so it just unlocks something in me. But it's interesting because. But what about with you? Did you. Where did you start playing guitar because you're so musical? That must have been an early journey. You didn't. You didn't know. Like a ragamuffin, like me coming in late with, you know, My father was.

[A]

My father was a professional musician, so. And he was a really great guitar player. So I started playing about 82, but I wanted to be a metal guitar player. So all my early. Thank you. All my early playing was all shredding.

[B]

Right. Of course.

[A]

Ingve Malmsteen, Richie Blackmore, Eddie Van Halen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's all I did for the first couple years. And then I had a disabled brother. I still have a disabled brother. And because I had to take care of him a lot, I would be stuck inside the house. So I would play the guitar, sitting on the bed, and I. And I would think it was so boring just to play chords. It sounded so boring to me. So I started playing that style where it would sound like two guitars at once. I'd never heard the Cure, and the first time I heard the Cure, I was like, wow, somebody plays like me because of that Dean Susie and the Banshees or whatever that style is, that open style. And that's when I started to merge this idea of metal, you know, and this idea of, like, let's call it alternative guitar.

[B]

Right, right, right. You know, took a long time to catch up. Hey, that's my thing now.

[A]

I mean, I was doing that stuff in. I actually. I had a band called the Marked at that Plate in Florida that played that style in 85. So I was Combining Sisters of Mercy and Metallica in 85.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But the band wasn't very good, so I gave it up. And then I picked it back up when Jimmy Chamberlain joined the Pumpkins. And that's when we started playing rock. So we were playing rock by 88 in earnest. And then we'd see bands coming through, like Soundgarden and Jane's and stuff like that. We opened for Jane's, and so we start to see this. Like, there's this other thing happening. So that's kind of where that all came from. But it all came from having played metal first.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not new wave.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the great things. Like working when I work with Paige Hamilton.

[A]

Yeah, great. We. I'm pretty sure we either opened for them once or I saw them once.

[B]

Right.

[A]

On that. On the famous album.

[B]

Right. Meantime.

[A]

Oh, are you kidding?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because nobody was really playing downtune then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when you heard it live.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was a place that held like maybe 200 people.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

So good.

[B]

We did. I did a. You know, I always wanted to do. You know, you always. Somewhat chasing, especially when you're younger, like chasing a tire. I thought, I know if I do a side project, it's going to look really creative. And look, it's really cool when you do. People do side projects. You know, on Touch and Go, they do side projects in like four weeks and then go back to the bed. I was on Interscope, so it took me a couple of years of Jimmy Ivy making me write hit singles. I'm like, this is a side project. I'm just trying to be on. I met a. On Matador Records. You know, what are you doing to me? I want to go back to my other band afterwards. And, you know, and Paige came in to produce us.

[A]

So it's just for context. You're talking about Institute. After Bush broke up, you do this.

[B]

They took a break. And one guy had. The guitar player felt, you know, he wanted to spend more time with his kids. And I said, I want to do this side project. So I always thought it looked cool when people do side projects, you know, and for whatever reason, I thought it'd be a fun thing. And. But so I had a few songs and detuned songs as really fun. Dent down a C sharp. And Paige said, you know, I love to do the record. And he goes, we're leaving the meeting. Goes, all the songs are in C sharp. Right. They're all in drop. I was like, yeah, absolutely. I hadn't written. I hadn't written them, I was like, yeah, of course they are. Went off and just wrote a whole lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so getting to that whole D tune things are really fun. I obsessed with dtune guitar now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's the whole world.

[A]

Just so you know. I have a. I have a new guitar model that's tuned D to D. Wow. So it's the whole normal guitar dropped a whole step down. And then if you want to drop it, then it's C. The dad guide. Yeah, no, no, it's the whole guitar. D, G. Right. C, F. It's the. It's normal guitar. It's a little slightly longer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's pitched for downtune guitar. Oh, I got to get you one.

[B]

I've got to get one.

[A]

It's good. It's really make it with Rev. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. I've done four signature guitars with Rev. So this is the fourth.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

People love it. It sounds chef's kiss your chef now. All right, so let's go back. I got to keep you on my. My little timeline here. So you meet Nigel, 1991, somewhere on there. Future Primitive.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I didn't know that was the original name. So was your intention with Nigel? Okay. I want to do this type of music.

[B]

Well, what happened with him is that I met him, we through a friend of ours, and we had like a long night together and we playing. He loved the Gun Club birthday party. And it was just really exciting getting to know someone who could play, you see, because I'd been limited to the musicians I knew, the last guy was, so was too bluesy for me. So it was like doing my. Every time we'd do solos, be like, why? Why is it? What I'm meaning was is that the blues sound is just not good for me. It's just like, you know, if John Mayer, who's an amazing blues guitar player, but if he played on my stuff, he'll sound like that. So I try to convince him to do a band together, you know, and he said to me, look, I'm doing these training videos for clients, and they were paying £1,000 a time. He's maybe doing a couple of week. He says, well, I can't really afford to take the time out to write songs with you. If you have songs, why don't I just demo them for you? So that's interesting. That's where it all began, that I wrote songs on my own. So I went and I was like.

[A]

I said, you never really wrote songs on your own before?

[B]

Never. I'd Always been sat with someone. Yeah. So then I was like, oh, my God. I was like, you're such a phony. Like you say you're a singer, like, write a song already. So I sat down, started writing songs and I was, like, amazed that. Okay. Oh, okay. If you'd. And I found it was like this liberation. And so I'd write and I'd take him. Like, the first song I took in was Come down and I. And. And he demoed up so good. And I was like, oh, my God, this is incredible. And it felt. I felt so freed because I felt constrained by the other bands because I had no control over the music. I could say what I liked, but I wasn't physically playing it, so it was a bit limiting. And by getting my. To write the songs myself. And then he plays on the top. He's doing all the Joey Santiago, all the semitone stuff and everything' Everything's all happening. And he even did when we did the. That was when Billy Cobham had that Safe From Harm. The Massive Attack had that sample out on their record on Safe From Home. And that fit. It's similar. So I remember sitting in my bath in my apartment in London and thinking, that's it. It doesn't matter. I'm just now in a cool band. I'm never going to be successful. But the point is, this is. Yeah, finally cool I was. Because every time I'd. I'd play demos, people and they. They would be like. They look at me like it wasn't cool. And I'd be thinking to myself, I know it's not that cool, but there's this terrible disconnect. So this was the first time he'd be playing stuff. I'd be like, oh, my God. And he. He was a master, Nigel, of finding the right notes. Just. He could find the right notes, however simple they were. I mean, the, the. The machine head, the intro, it's just these octaves. It's nothing yet that in that moment, in that time, on that. In that. That. So the alchemy of those two notes of his chords. Brilliant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just so good. And he always would do it. He'd always find those notes and elevate whatever I did. So then when I go back to him, I say, I take the pressure off now. So finally, can we write together? You know, now. Now we'll go back to normal. He says, none of this is working great. I'm making my money and you're bringing me good songs. So once we built up a repertoire of say 12 songs. He said let, let's try a band. Let's rehearse him out, see what it's like. So I had a friend of mine who's a screenwriter. Is a screenwriter. He subbed in the drums for us for a while and he was a really. He was a jazz drummer. So he was really fun and he was on heroin at the time. He really had a laid back, good feel. Right. And, and, and we had this bass player, Malcolm, who's lovely Swedish guy. Malcolm. Pardon. I always. I thought there might be a problem in future. The other bass player called Malcolm. Pardon. He was a really amazing bass player. He left and then I got this drummer called Amir, who's Iranian jazz drummer. Because I love jazz drummers in rock, you know.

[A]

Is it because of the swing in it?

[B]

It's the feel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean I, I would consider like Jimmy has that feel. Yeah. Matt. Matt from south. You know.

[A]

Yeah. There's an internal swing.

[B]

Yes. As opposed to much more.

[A]

It's weird when you play with the guy who's a great drummer but doesn't have the internal swing. Yeah, it feels a little too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's. That's. That's most rock drummers for me. So then he left to join a 12 piece jazz band just before we signed our record deal. I was so sad to lose Amir. He was brilliant and. And then we got Robin, who's a great drummer but much more straight. Straight straighter. But he did great for us. And then now these last few years I've got a drummer who's much more in the middle with a great. With a lot of as he chops and vibes. So.

[A]

Nick Hughes, walk me through this. I mean we don't have to go too long into it, but my understanding is you kind of get a deal with Disney's Hollywood Records and they just kind of stall you for a while. You kind of do that spin that they would do.

[B]

Well, what happened is they, they. We delivered. They deliver the record that was 16 stone to them. And that's the story is according to the guy from our label, Rob Kahane, that they. At the record, at the company, they threw the CD and said not only are those singles on this record, there's no album tracks, and threw the record at him because Frank Wells, who'd signed us got killed in a helicopter crash. So we're being reviewed by the team there, the subsequent team there, you know, and they, they dropped us.

[A]

Was Frank Wells killed in that crash with Stevie Revaughn?

[B]

And I don't know. No, I don't think so. The same crash, but it was just a helicopter crash. So I was just so confused, you know, because I did the record. Then I went back to work. You know, I was back. I was back painting. So I was like, okay, you made the record. I. My. I had no idea what was possible. No one told me what was possible. I didn't know what was possible. I was living in London, you know.

[A]

And you're dealing with American record company, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I didn't know what, you know.

[A]

Was there not interest in you guys in the uk?

[B]

There was interest to rock. There was. There was. That was the height of Brit pop. Right. So that was. That was. People were looking for, like, the next Pulp. Yeah. And the next Oasis and. And Blur and our style, I suppose. So I was. I was well known enough to the whole community to make. To get demo time, so I could always afford to go and make the demos. I've never hear back what they thought of the demos, but I quietly was building up the repertoire of, like, having the real band because Nigel would do the stuff at his house and then we'd go in and so all those recordings were paid for by, you know, all the different labels in London.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we just like, okay, thank you. 3. Get three days in the studio and just try and do, you know, you do four songs, you know, that sort of thing, and you cram it. And so then when I got this, then I did a TV show called. It was. It was the midweek show on Channel 4 for a TV show, and they always showed unsigned band and they did a video. So that. That worked as a video for us. Went to this guy in America and then we had all. All the songs that was all 16 stone.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And they.

[A]

That's.

[B]

They said, he's like, oh, yeah, we'll sign them. And then everyone was like, don't sign with the guy in the valley. D's crazy. And I was like, or do what? Or do what? Sometimes in life you got to jump.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we just decided to jump.

[A]

And this is interscop. Go.

[B]

Well, no, that was the trauma then. So we did the record. Then, then, then, then they said, oh, distribution's fallen through. What does that mean? You know, we're dumb, young. What does that mean? Well, there's no one to distribute the record.

[A]

Yeah, we could put it out, but no one's gonna. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's no one to take it from store to store. Literally can't distribute it. Oh, what are you gonna do about that. Don't worry, just leave it with us. So then I got the. You know that was working and I was doing 11 dentist offices. I've. I've said that story but so very Kafka because there was sort of large office, magnolia color. So it's very weird which is this over and over. Yeah. And. But I didn't feel bad because I sort of felt quite excited that I'd made a record I was proud of. I felt good. I felt like, okay, so where's life going to take you now? You know, you're a musician, you have this record. My aunt who I grew up with and was like my second mum to me like you brought up to me. She knew this guy called Colin and he'd made one record and it was just cool as when he came around because he was on a record he was like sort of a. He did the sort of a yacht rock, early yach rock stuff. I don't know what it was but it's just like he had. She had a record with Colin on it. He had a record and he came around to the house and I just. Cuz she lived with us, you know, I just, just thought that's so cool. So like I've done it, I've got a record now. Let's see what you know. You're young and just bouncing around and getting on with life. And then when they said oh come to. You have to come to la. Krock's playing your. Your song. It's a, it's a hit on Kroc. I was like that's amazing. What is?

[A]

They know. Did they even. They were even putting it out?

[B]

No.

[A]

No one even told you?

[B]

No, no.

[A]

That's such a record label thing.

[B]

Yeah, it's very.

[A]

So what they probably did is throw it at the wall to see if it would stick.

[B]

Well no, what they did is they, they had got the interest from Krock, Kevin started playing it then Ted Field heard it the nrd me from his car on camera and he. So then I say, he said come to America. I remember it was in the middle of a Come to America. There's your record is really taking off at Kroc and we need you to come out here. So I came back out and then they took me to the record company to see Jimmy and Ted and now I've been to all these labels before and been rejected 100 times. So I was like what? I've flown all this way. I don't understand. I thought you were my record deal. I was so naive. Just an independent label. Yeah. We don't have the capacity to distribute the record we just signed to us. Okay.

[A]

So Interscope wanted to basically do a deal with Trauma because of your record.

[B]

Yeah. So they did the distribution and that's how. Then. And then that's when no Doubt, who'd been languishing on the five years, you know, making the record, that's when they got picked up. Jimmy said, go with this guy. Look what he's done with this band. And that guy did it for them as well. That's how that worked.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

So that's how it works. So that's how it works. That. Yeah, that was it. So isn't it amazing how life is like these just like a knife edge of things. Like these things, they weren't like could.

[A]

Have been feeding frenzy. It had been that one day that somebody decided no, and you. We wouldn't know who you are.

[B]

There was no feeding frenzy. There was no feeding.

[A]

Yeah, well, we got rejected 20 times, you know, before we got signed. And even then they were kind of like, okay, we're going to give you this little side deal. So I know that feeling. You're like, you're waiting and waiting and you're like, what are we waiting for? Is it either. It's either a yes or a no.

[B]

I feel like I'm still waiting.

[A]

Waiting for what, though?

[B]

Well, that's the thing. Just the next step. Just what is it, you know, to just, you know, how are the wolves really at the door? You know, I think that some people have it. I don't mind it. I sort of feels quite. It feels solid to be always in a situation where you are. Make your own way. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It feels like that, you know, like, I don't know what it feels like for you, but it never stops being a fight. Never stops being a. It's to convince people of this. I want to do that. It's never. Nothing's easy. Nothing. Oh, of course. What a great idea. Let's help you do that. You know, it's just always a bit like, a bit challenging.

[A]

My thing is, I finally realized the fight is my. With me. It took me about 40 years to figure that one out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's strictly with me. Me. I've been fighting me the whole time.

[B]

It's worked for you.

[A]

Yes and no. Okay, so I love that you've explained all this because it does help me understand because of course, you know, I'm just in a band and here you guys come and suddenly you're on the radio and all that stuff. And as you know, I was very critical at the time of what I perceived as second wave bands, bandwagon, you know, suddenly, like, oh, now everybody wants to do grunge, you know what I mean?

[B]

Everybody's sad. Sure.

[A]

You know, a minor for to intern to eternity. So how did you. Because you're telling a beautiful story, which is like, you know, it just kind of happened. And I had faith and I found the right guy and we did the thing and here we are and it looks like nothing's going to happen. And suddenly it's happening and suddenly I'm in LA and Jimmy Ioving wants to talk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then, boom, you're thrown in. You're as red meat into this culture award that was going on in America about authenticity, about who sounds like who and who has a right to play loud guitar and all that. How did that, how did you feel about all that?

[B]

Well, it was like bursting into the best party ever. And then, and you're naked, you're very.

[A]

Good looking, so it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

[B]

I just mean the idea that you, you know, I, I, I think that before I found a way to, to connect with people that like the band, I just always felt out of place, really out of place. Like I just knew that there was something. I, I even had this weirdest thing. When I was a kid. I used to dream about Los Angeles. I had no reality, no connection or no justification for that. It just seemed to be a, some sort of Xanadu, some place that could save me and someplace that I just wanted to get away from. Where I was, I was desperate to get away. It seems so gray and dark and dour and I just, just couldn't, I just, all I could think of Los Angeles, but I'd had nothing tangible that would justify that. It just was a notion, an idea, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Like, like a Shangri La, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, but I just want to persist in the question a little bit more because I remember this very acutely and you and I talked about it around those times, but, but I want to hear your impression now. It's not an easy place to be if you're being held up as the example of something, you know, especially. And, and I, and I learned to know this about you over time. I didn't have that impression at the time, but over time I, I gained, I think, what is a more refined impression of what you were doing musically. But it couldn't have been easy to kind of be given A certain amount of stick about it.

[B]

Yeah. It was so like, it was as if when I got going and selling the records or having people come to the shows, I felt suddenly I was in the right place. This is where I should be. This is why I was like hanging onto the rope. Wouldn't let go through all the things on, going, going past me. So therefore it was disappointing to not be, you know, to have that disconnect for people. Yeah, because it was like from, in our journey. It was like, damn. I don't know. We just wrote these songs and like everyone said no for so long and then somehow we, we got in, we snuck in the door and suddenly we're inside the building and people like it. Don't, don't, I don't know. So, so we were sort of vilified for that. But yeah, it was, it was, it was, I think it was hardest. So the biggest disappointment was, was from contemporaries with journalists, it just was sort of, it seemed par for the course. One of my favorite things I ever did was interview Marky Smith. The four were massive band for me. I love the four.

[A]

Great band.

[B]

Just amazing.

[A]

What a, what a brilliant lyricist. Yeah, all of it.

[B]

And when I would did it, I did an interview with him once for Q magazine and we were, we, we were interviewed by the same journalist. And I've never seen anyone terrorize a journalist better than Mark E. Smith. It was just unbelievable. And I was just so naive and not good at it. And I always, you know, I kept thinking I should have been more cynical. I should have been more, you know, I should have, you know.

[A]

That's not your nature though.

[B]

No, it wasn't. So. But it didn't serve me well because I just would go into these interviews in these situations, like kind of gaumlessly and just open and then just be in the. And just kind of be a savaged.

[A]

Well, at least you understand maybe a little bit better now why I was the way I was then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I wouldn't take that.

[B]

Yeah, well, the thing is, I wasn't savage in the moment. I was there was all it was.

[A]

But they would come at me in the moment.

[B]

Oh, right. No, I was never, I, I, I would have, I would have preferred that because it's not like, you know, it's like I grew up in a major city, so I'm perfectly good with confrontation. It's some, it's sometimes easier because then I know this is where we're at.

[A]

Just, yeah, just this is where we're.

[B]

At on the table when you're when you're just sort of. When you're naive and waffling and just full of youth and nonsense that could be just like, you know, tailor made, any way you like. I did have a guy come up to me at. Actually at Sasha's house that my ex drummer guy helped me out. A guy from Rolling Stone who had said to me, he said, I'd go. He waited till other people had gone into another room. There's a whole big dinner. And he wanted to talk to me on my own. And he said, I want to really apologize, guys, to my review of Razor Blade Suitcase. There was an editorial slant and I was told. And Steve Albini had said, you should listen to this band. You must listen to this band. Don't count this band out. They're much more interesting than you think. And he said, he said, I wouldn't do it. And I savaged you. And I just want to apologize for that. I said, well, I sure hope you feel better.

[A]

Yeah. To give, to give some context to what you're saying. I've met journalists through the years and they would, they would turn in a review of our records and the editor would say, you need to go back and rewrite this and slag the band or even lose your job.

[B]

It's so weird because I don't think of you like that. I think of this Pumpkins as such a. Oh, we got horrible band.

[A]

Got horrible reviews in the time. Horrible. Yeah, you got too much. You, you, you got kids. But we got horrible reviews. Horrible, horrible. Especially in the uk. The worst reviews we got was in the uk. Okay.

[B]

Right. That doesn't really make sense to me. But I, I was completely unaware of that. That's a.

[A]

Well, it always looks, it always looks rosy. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I think I've done. I don't think you quite had your fair accolades of the devastating place you have in music. The musicality you brought to rock is, is your. There's no one who's done it like that.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

I do think that's. And, and it's funny because my son is so in love with your band that we basically. I hear more Pumpkins than anything else in my life.

[A]

It's my great revenge on you.

[B]

No, it's. No, no problem. I, it's. I, it's. It's devastating. And it, it occurred to me, it's funny that when you're young, you know, we had that, we had that lovely talk at MTV Awards. I think it's in Europe where you said in the Science of Things you said, I'm finally a fan. He said, I'm finally a fan. I listened to your record. Record, and I finally found it was the third album, so. And I was like. And then I remember you said to me, we were talking and, you know, it was really fun for me to talk to you. I sort of respected you so much that point, as I do now and again. And I said to you, you said, yeah, you know, I mean, you had your MTV moment. And I was like, I did, I did. God, I remember leaving there thinking, God, I guess I've had my moment with mtv. You could.

[A]

I'm terrible. Um, you reminded me of the first time we ever really talked. And I. And I love and respect this about you to this day. We were somewhere at something, you know, God knows where the. We were in the 90s, but. And I saw you and I thought, oh, God, you know, because I'd said dumb about you. And you came up and you said, why are you saying these things about me and my band? You know what I mean? And we had this kind of conversation where I was very honest with you about my impressions. And you said, said, okay. And I. I was like, oh, he's a good guy. You know what I mean? And that began a. I don't want to say it's a relationship, but it. But we've had this, like, beautiful kind of connection ever since then. It was like the first time I saw. He's a real person, right? You know, not a construction, not a record company. Fiction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and then because of that, then I started paying attention and then I became a fan and. And now, because I. I was going to talk to you, I went back and listened to everything again. And so much of the stuff. Hold.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[A]

It's. It's aged really, really well. Well produced, well sung, great lyrics. So you, You. You proved me and ton of people wrong. And I. I mean, I figured out in the 90s that you. That you were part of us because it, you know, it was hard for us to even earn, you know, even one quick thing. Because you worked with Steve Albini when Steve passed away not too long ago. And it was obviously a sad thing and way too young. People dug up all these quotes where Steve was slagging us off, like, way, way back in the day. And I said it on one thing, but nobody really caught it. I talked about how Steve and I got to know each other. And Steve was amazing with me. He would lend us gear. He saved my ass a couple times with, like, studio Stuff. I recorded it Electric. He was a great guy. So it's this idea of like that, you know, red team, blue team. You know what I mean? So I made the same mistake that Steve had made with me, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's there, I'm over here, you know, and I'm here, and you're over there. And then eventually I'll figure out, like, no, we're actually all kind of in the same club, and we kind of come at it from different ways. And in a good way, I'm appreciative of Steve because Steve. Steve was. If you're going to hold people up on the. Let's call it the Integrity Olympics, Steve was the Integrity Olympics. He was that guy. He was the guy who recorded a band for $500. He was the guy who lived it. And he. He wasn't just. A lot of those people are fake, as you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The. The indie. Indie people. Right. Steve was the real deal. So if Steve held you up to that mirror, you kind of had to look at it and say, okay, why am I really doing. Doing this? So anyway, the point I was trying to make is, you know, I think it's really cool that it's all kind of worked out. I don't know if you feel that, but I feel that now.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think that.

[A]

I mean, you guys are doing big tours and.

[B]

Yeah, it's making beautiful. Yeah, it's. Yeah. And I think that's. I hope it just comes down to just the. The eyes always been on the right thing, which is just to be as great as possible. And like you're saying the battles with yourself. For me, in our world, the better the. So you write, the better the performance you give, the easier your life is anyway. Do you mean. And. And I. And I. And I just feel deeply at the wheel of my creativity. I don't feel like I'm phoning in any records, any songs. I'm not. You know, I feel very, very in control and like the best at editing myself I've ever, ever been.

[A]

Well, what's interesting, because I went back and listened to the. To the. To the catalog recently, and from the first to that third album, there's this kind of figuring out that goes on. It might have been the touring, it might have been confidence, but. But when you hit that third album, you've, You've. You've arrived. Like, you sound like you. It's your world. It's your mean music. And people can't see that about you, I think, including myself. And it Took me a hot minute to do it. It's. It sells what you did short. And I think. I think I have this whole rant that I've been doing lately. But it's essentially like this. We all grew up in the shadow of the baby boomers. You know, all we ever heard about was the Beatles and Pink Floyd and the Stones, and they're still going. Right. We had to kind of fight as a generation to kind of say, this is who we are. We have a different way of doing it. And in a weird kind of way we could. Because we grew up in a baby boomer system, it pitted us against each other. We had to kind of fight to be on MTV or fight the. You know what I mean? Because the oxygen for rock bands at that time was very, very limited. So I think there's something sort of beautiful about, like, almost like when soldiers reconcile after a war. It's like we all survive that those magazines. Means what they cared about don't matter. But our music has endured. And the fact that we can lovingly respect, like, wow, what you did and what I did and what Steve did and what the Pixies did, we can all step back and say, wow. That we did anything at all is a miracle. And the fact that 30 years later, the people care, particularly young people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's the most, like, humbling thing. So when you say that your son loves my band, it's like. It's like. It hits me right in the heart.

[B]

Because Is really, really respectful.

[A]

He's also a tea drinker. From our. From our.

[B]

He's so. Yeah, he. Oh, my God, that was the best day of his life. When he got that package from Clark. He just thought it was a great.

[A]

My. My wife loves you, by the way, still. So, you know, she said to say hello to you. So since we were talking about Steve, talk a little bit about working with Steve. Abbey Road. It's the year 1996. You remember 1996?

[B]

Yes, I do. Well, I remember going for lunch with him because I. I got one of my. The greatest letters from. From Steve. One of the great letters of my life. So I went for lunch on a. You know, we're on tour and we're just playing clubs, but we had a day off in Chicago and they said, you know, doing new record. Who do you think working with now? That's when I'd loved, obviously, the Pixies, but also PJ Harvey's record that. That rid of me had just had come out.

[A]

And that was Steve.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And that was My favorite record of hers. It still is. It's just. And super bluesy. But really.

[A]

But even the way she to be here. I don't know. I don't know her. I don't know Polly. But somehow she made the blues sound.

[B]

Fresh because she's so fresh. But. Yeah, for sure. But. So when I heard that record, I just. It just filled me. I remember listening when we actually were making 16 stone. I remember. And I said to Clive Lago, can you make it more like this? He goes, you gotta write the songs like that. So whatever. When I was going to make a record, I just thought, oh, my God, Steve would be amazing. Because we've been on tour now for two, three years. We'd gone. Actually gone from clubs, theaters, we were playing arenas on that one record. And so it was like we basically, you know, maybe there's Dave Jordan I'd spoken to, but I went to have lunch with Steve and I didn't know what it'd be like. I remember I met David Yao for the first time at Ross Kilda. And I said to him, I was so naive and an idiot. I was like, you know, I can't wait to meet Steve. He's, you know, he's so pure. He's so real. And Yao goes, yeah, he's really real love. Like, I knew then I'd like. I'd like, you know, it was not a good poker player. But then I went there. So I went out to lunch with him and I went for lunch with him and Heather. We went for a Greek restaurant, Greek Town in Chicago. And I just.

[A]

Which, by the way, Pete Katzis, who's works with you and. And I've known Pete for 35 years. His dad used to run around that. That very part of Chicago.

[B]

Yeah, they paid him.

[A]

Nick the Greek, I think was his name.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Protection money. So we go for lunch and we're just talking, whatever. And then. And I got this great letter paraphrasing the letter. And he says, dear Dave, who's our manager at the time. I've been around so many people in the music business that I'm almost not inured to the bull that's around me. Heather, however, has an excellent detector and has found Gavin in fine form. And so therefore, I'm more than happy to extend my services. Work with Bush for their upcoming album. What details to follow. And so it's a great moment. And yeah, we did. First off, we did a little bit in. In the Countryside at Trevor Horn Studio. And it was funny seeing Steve in a. In a Domestic setting with like the. The birds chirping and a wonderful old Tudor home. And it sort of didn't seem right, you know. And Benny had to go back to do something. And then when he came in, he had a problem. Problem. And we ended up. He said, if we canceled that place. And we're going to go to Abbey Roads. We did Studio 2 where the Beatles worked. And he did everything live. Like, it was just so. It was so wild.

[A]

Like, you know, the tracking was live.

[B]

Yeah. He didn't really believe in much overdubs unless it was compositionally intended. If you said, like. You know, I did. I said, Steve, you know, this is. Chorus. It's cool. Can I put a harmony on it? So he's like, okay. So I go. I come back, I see the track listing. Pointless Harmony. The album. I wanted to call the album Pointless Harmony.

[A]

That's a pretty good time.

[B]

I should have called it.

[A]

I should still. That's it. You should. I'd still use that.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

And were you happy with the way it turned out?

[B]

Yeah. I think that what happened is that. I wish that I kept on forcing him to say, I know you're not a producer, but, Steve, just what should we do? Help us. Because I would. As. I would edit it a bit. You know. I think that we've gotten so. Still into extending songs to play to accommodate playing live. To play. An hour and a half.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That. I just don't know why I thought it was. You know, talking about Glenn Branker and Cycles. Repetition. I don't know why it was so necessary to stay so long before I'd start singing or some. I'd be like, it's not that. These two chords are not that good. Things like that. That I just get wished. He just moved me along a bit. Yeah. But. So that's. That's kind of it. So. But I. What I do get from it is a capturing of a band, which I wanted. It was also. It was. It was somewhat suicidal in the face of the criticism with Nirvana and the.

[A]

Fact I was gonna ask that. Kind of like. So running into the rotor blades.

[B]

Yeah. But it's like. I just like it now. You'll see the difference between the bands. I was like, this is exactly how you'll find the difference between bands. Chance. And I was already on a losing streak on that thing anyway. So it's a kind of a you. It was like no one was gonna. The people that wanted to hate me at that point for those.

[A]

It was a number one albums guessed right.

[B]

Yeah, Jimmy Ivan was like, you know, you took a chance. You were right.

[A]

That's a good Jimmy.

[B]

Yeah, he's the only. Is the one of the few compliments. But yeah, it was, it was just such a seismic moment. If you can imagine, we go back to a conversation about that Pixies. To have been inspired to do music and to find my direction through the Pixies, then to do a record that. With Steve Albini and with the same artwork and the way that I listened. Look to the. Don't you remember the artwork? Yeah, the Matador girl, the gold cover. It, the, the monkey. I just was like, this is so beautiful. I couldn't believe it. And it was, you know, it wasn't Prince, it wasn't Aerosmith, it wasn't what was happening. This was this new thing. And those records were larger than life. And so, so for me, I just was like, well, those people kind of hate me anyway. What am I going to do? I'm not getting them anyway. But not what am I going to. How am I going to get him back?

[A]

Why was it three years after that record before you guys put out a third? A lot of touring.

[B]

A lot of touring. Two years of touring and then that was the size of things after that. That was the one that. Because I got got Clive Langer involved and I said, I really want to do it. Sounds ridiculous now. I mean, Nine Inch Nails are obviously doing it, but I was like, I want to combine this. I wanted to combine more of London. You know, I've, what happened is that I, I, I was taking the criticism and I was trying to sort of work out what would, what would sidestep it? What, what am I missing? And I was like, are you having, do you have enough of England? Do you have enough of London in yourself?

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

And London was all remixes, dance, kind.

[A]

Of drum and bass time, drum and.

[B]

Bass, everything like that. So I was like, why don't we incorporate? Just get a bit of London. Maybe they're right, you know, you don't want to. If someone criticizes you, most of the time your instinct is like, yeah. And then one bit they're like, what was that you saying about that? Was that. So you go. Because you tick it off if things are fair or not. And I was thinking, well, on a place level, they might have a point. So I thought that. So what I did is I said to clap. We're going to have this hybrid thing. We have Johnny Rockstar, who's our amazing programmer, so high. He just would take ages on Everything you're programming. But I'd say we combine it. We have these rock songs, but then we've got chemicals between, which is like much more kind of tricked out. And then we're going to have the. The straightforward rock song.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we're just going to create this thing where we get people used to, you know, that feeling. And that was where it began. Wanted to experiment, really. And that's what they did. And then the next one was with Dave Sardi that we did make in America to. Just then it was like. Well, let's just say it was like making it in America.

[A]

Yeah. Like I was saying before, I think that's the record where like, all kind of came together. Did you feel. Do you feel that at the time?

[B]

Yeah, just, you know, just every record I make is an opportunity to learn something different. I mean, even up till now, the songs I put together. I play a song, I love it. I say it's so great, and I don't know why I like it so much. And then I realize it's the harmonic minor scale. And I realized that really speaks to me. Yeah. Yeah, really. I just love all those changes. And then I try. And so every song still remains a voyage of discovery. I'm not sort of good enough to be like, oh, I'm just going to do this one again. I'm always like, wow, what goes on if I do that? And what I find really intriguing is because I have my studio and I can engineer myself enough and I can do. Play the keyboards on it and make a lot of soundscapes, dreamscapes that people add to or subtract to from whatever. I'll put things together. That the alchemy of music is still so magical to. To me, if I was. If I. If I go backwards and I'm asked to recreate that, I'm. I'm at a loss to know why. It was so nice that those two together, what that counterpoint was. All these beautiful accidents that. That you. That happen in music, you know. You know, harmony is. The understanding of harmony is just. You can. It goes on.

[A]

Did you ever. You ever study it?

[B]

Yeah, I've been. I mean, I have. I have studied for. For years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To play. And I studied piano, which I haven't recently, which is really annoying. And my son told me as well the other day, do you know that Billy also. He's as good at piano, is a guitar.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

And I was like. I said to him, I wish it was true. I said to him, you go and play. Why do I never hear you playing? You've got a beautiful upright here in the studio. So if you're that inspired, do it, you know.

[A]

Not true. I play. I play piano terribly.

[B]

I'm not going to tell him that.

[A]

I call it Panda Piano. It's like. Like a power Panda would play like this.

[B]

Um.

[A]

There's, of course, one more record. But then. Is it. Was it the end of the 2000s, the dissipation of the record business? Was it the band grew stale?

[B]

What.

[A]

What. What was the general condition that led to the band sort of stopping there?

[B]

You know, I think that one guy had missed the one kid growing up because he'd been working so solidly. And I felt a bit. I wasn't sure where I was going. And that's why I did the Institute record. You know, I thought, this is going to just pet me up. Indeed. I worked with Paige. I should have just done Drop Drop records from then, you know. But I did record Page and I loved all the songs and I thought, why are they not all? And then when I went. Then I. Then I went back to the band and said, we're going to get it back together again. And they said, still not ready.

[A]

Ah. I didn't know.

[B]

I was like. And. And I really listened to the worst part of my ego and I thought, I'll do a solo record. Nobody wants to solo record from a singer in a rock band.

[A]

I feel I'm at a similar perspective.

[B]

Jerry Cantrell aside, because we love him and we toured with him and his sort of thing, but I just think that people wouldn't. They want us in our bands. That's for me. They want me in the band.

[A]

Yeah. There's something that happens when you go out of your band. They're almost, like, mad at you.

[B]

Yeah. It's so. Not even. Almost everyone was mad at me. And I was like, it's not even my fault. They don't want to do it. I shouldn't.

[A]

They don't want to hear it. They don't give a.

[B]

And then the weirdest thing happened to me is that then I got. Was the most collaborative on my Solar record. Then I was told I have to go and work with everyone. So I worked with Dave Stewart, I worked with Linda Perry, I go and work with songwriters. I've never been in a room and jamming with someone because imagine I told you that every song I'd written on my own, I take in. They amend and change and do stuff like that. I work with adults, so it's like it's a democracy. But, you know, the better. The better the presentation of the song, the less they're going to change, you know, unless they feel intrigued or desire to. So, you know, I think.

[A]

We don't do gossip here, but you did marry a famous person. And what struck me about it is you've had these periods in your life. I don't even know if I can be succinct about it, but it's like maybe the simple way to be put it is. Is. Is you finding yourself or you put yourself in this bigger circumstance and somehow you got to kind of find yourself. Yourself. Throwing yourself into the celebrity MA of la, particularly as a celebrity couple. How do you feel about all that? Because I don't know. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I know what people do to kind of smile and work with it because it's an energy and like a. Like a bullfighter, you got to kind of. You know, there's an advantageous and a disadvantageous, and we all are aware what the disadvantageous part of it is. But it struck me as interesting that suddenly now you're in the heat of this other thing and it's not musical per se, it's. It's celebrity driven.

[B]

Yeah. It's so simple. I just really, you know, when I met her, it was just magic and just instant and so. So.

[A]

Which is a pretty magical person.

[B]

Yes, she is. And so that's all that I met. That's all that, you know, I was just. Just. She changed me so much. You know, she sort of softened me in so many ways. You know, she comes from such a wholesome life that there was some taming qualities to it that was incredibly special. So I. I prioritized that feeling over any interpretation of it. I was, again, I was moving so fast at that point. Point. So many things were going on, you know, from all angles that I don't. Wisdom wasn't. Wasn't one of them. Reflection wasn't. Wasn't one of my qualities at the time. I just was extremely. Just thought she was amazing. And that was all that mattered. And everything else was a consequence of that, you know, it wasn't.

[A]

Yeah, I get that.

[B]

Yeah, that was it.

[A]

Why.

[B]

Why?

[A]

The dabbling into acting was like a curiosity or was it an opportunity because you're kind of in it.

[B]

I think it was just the desire to do something creative that I didn't have to think of first, you know.

[A]

Like, show me where to stand and I'll. Well, I sense. I don't mean In a. Demeanor.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. I just mean that, you know, I think we're the same when we go to work. You know, you start with a blank screen or a blank bit of paper. And like, I talked.

[A]

That anxiety is something I think most people don't understand.

[B]

Well, it's just. It's. It's just right there. It's just. It's. It's. It's just a blank bit of space, silent screen, looking at you saying, make me good. So I think there was something about. Because I love words so much that I think that. That it was inspiring to. And I never did so much for it that it took away. Because whenever I did a movie, all the crew would be like, you know, when's the next record? Mad at me. You talk about doing a solo record. Try doing a movie. People like. Like, what the fuck you doing? Yeah, we don't care about being an actor. But I like that process. And I. And I do. It was inspiring. It did always make me run back to doing music because I was like, I know, I know. And that's my main thing. But I thought that Tom Waits, who is a incredible artist, one of my favorite artists of all time, the way that he just showed up in movies, that would be amazing. You'd be like, why is he doing here?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I just thought that was an interesting thing to do, and it was just creative. And I didn't. Yeah. And. And it didn't. I was poised. At one point after Constantine, it was like, I did have a massive agent and I was poised for a whole different life. That the universe said no.

[A]

You know, was it signs or was it something you just didn't. Weren't feeling?

[B]

Oh, it was stuff I didn't get hired for. I just. It just. It just didn't work out for me in a way that I thought stars didn't align.

[A]

Align.

[B]

Stars did not align. I turned down. We turned down the transporter film we got offered right after Luke Besson. And that would have. Until then, that's. Something better will come along. And nothing did. I see nothing better came along. And then I did that classic one. I had this manager who wasn't really helping me ask the said big agent, hey, do you think Gavin should still be with you? Or, you know, like to sort of rattle his cage a bit now. He should have said, no way. I'm going to step it up. And he's like, it may be a small agent. So that was the end of that. So I was like, wow, that was at the height of, you know, I was like, okay, it's. But I don't feel regret.

[A]

It's brutal up there.

[B]

Yeah. But I don't feel any regret about it. I mean, I still do some auditioning. I still fail some things. And there's some things I get. You know, I was in Sophia Coppola's movie. I was in this movie just before COVID So they come along. I like them. You know, it's a fun reason.

[A]

I, the reason I ask is you, is in the last few years, maybe, maybe since the pandemic ended, you seem to have found like a renewed musical kind of wind or energy or. It's like there's, it's not just the fans rallying up around you in a new generation that wants to hear your music. You seem to be kind of entering into a place of commitment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I know you decently well. Well, not great, but I know you decently well. And even when I see clips of you, like your whole, your, your, your energy on stage is somebody who's convicted and you're present. Yeah, that's something I think maybe we, as performers, you can kind of read like, right. Does he really want to be there?

[B]

Right, right. No, I really want to be there.

[A]

I can feel that. And I'm happy. And by the way, I'm happy for you because you deserve that.

[B]

Thank you. I, I, I think that it's just an exciting time.

[A]

I, I, it's such a cool time.

[B]

Yeah. Isn't it? Exciting time. I, I have the freedom to make records. I, People still want to come. I spoke to my friend the other day, and he. I was feeling a bit blue because I have, I was, I have deep sort of conflicted emotions when I'm leav about to leave for a long time, because I feel very guilty. I know that when I'm out there and I'm doing it, it makes sense. But before, when I'm, and I just feel like I'm betraying every single person, entity, person, my kids, my dog, you know, they're all like, counting on me being there. And it's like, by the way, I won't be here. So I, I have this quite, it's, it's quite hard for me. So I was talking to my friend the other day, my oldest buddy from England. I was like, yeah, you know, feels, he goes, oh, what you mean? It feels really hard to travel around the world for five months and people wanted to see your songs, wanting to play live, the songs you wrote, they must be awful. What a Terrible feeling. How do you come, Hope? And I was like, all right, I know, but you know what I mean. I was just feeling a bit blue. But you, do you feel the same way? I mean, you have young children, so it must be.

[A]

I don't feel that way, no. One thing that we've done, my wife and I, is we made the decision when, when my son was a baby that we would just include them as as much as possible. So I'll take my kids on the road, just me and them, no nanny. So when the band's rehearsing, they're on stage with like the gun range headphones on.

[B]

Right. But how the. Okay, but when they go to school, that's a bit harder.

[A]

No, they're homeschooled.

[B]

Oh, yeah. So I would do that. So they go with you ever?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, not all the time, but I'm saying is we live a life where it's totally modular.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

So if I'm going on a six week run, my kids might be out for two or three of the weeks.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And then they, by the time they're done with three weeks of tour, they're like, I want to go home and see my kids cat. They're happy to leave me. Like, you enjoy your tour, dad. I'm going home because I want to see my cat.

[B]

That's a great.

[A]

So it's beautiful because it sort of balances out.

[B]

Yeah, very lucky. Chloe, obviously, is a perfect foil for that. If you, you know, if I was with, you know, someone who has a job that can't leave or a job that takes places, then you get that, that disconnect.

[A]

No, it's, it's, it's difficult because it's. Ultimately, there's a form of selfishness in it. Do you know what I'm saying? All artists are selfish. It's just the nature of the beast. I must go somewhere and be with my own thoughts. And by the way, I must share them. And not only must I share them, I need you to buy them. It's a bit. There is a selfishness there, but I think once the model's been proven, and in your case, over 30 years, years, it doesn't matter what the wellspring of the thing is anymore. It exists for a reason. There's ultimately a healing or a, a larger message at play. And the thing I try to tell my children is we're involved in something that's bigger than our family. And we're a show business family. And so what we do is we entertain and we put smiles on people's faces, so you're part of that process. So when we're here, we're doing this, and when we're out, we're doing that. And that's just the way it goes. It's not to say they don't have agency in the decision making process, because when they say to me, I want to go home, I'm like, okay, I'll put you on a plane tomorrow. If you want to go home, you don't have to, you don't have to stay out here with dad on tour in Helsinki. You know what I mean? It's kind of up to you.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And so we've kind of found this interesting balance. But I realize it would, it's not for everybody. It would, it's, it's a difficult because there are times where, like, my kids don't get of where the hell we are. They're tired and yeah. You know, they just want to watch tv and I'm like, you know, we got to go to the gig, you know, and they're like, do we have to, can, can you, can you skip the gig today, Dad? I, I, I, I thought to ask you this one thing because it's very rare that people have a common experience that most people wouldn't understand. If you talk about this or I talk about this, it sounds a bit, you know, having a go. But I like the idea of having, in this context, when you have success and you have a catalog and then bands come to see you play. What's your, what's your. Because you put out four albums since the band reformed in 2010. Is that right? So what's your, what's your vibe on? Like, the expectation of the audience, the hits versus new material. Like, how do you, how do you sit on, on that?

[B]

I, I, I think of it from my own perspective. When I go and see a band that I love, there are certain songs that I do want them to play and things I don't want to let me down on. But as long as they still put their, you know, foot to the floor when they write new songs, then they should play whatever they want. I don't think that obscure. Like, I'm, I, I often think of sets in tempos.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and just what you might want. And if, you know, I, I'll be fully aware if I've had like, you know, two or three similar tempos, then I know I'm gonna have to pick it up. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm always just trying to avoid that lull three quarters of the way through the show. I love the lull someone, someone offers to go buy the drinks. I because the lull you play the beautiful song, you do something. But I just always thinking that, that people are spoiled and they want to be. They just want to be blown away by you. This is ready. It's like it's of a best man speech. Like people come to your show especially with us when they have the history of the bands. They want to have a great time. So you've really got to it up to it up. So in that case I'm laughing because.

[A]

I so enjoy this process.

[B]

You I, I, I make sure on a skeletal level level we never veer too far away, too long away from. From footholds. They would know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They keep them in there. You can't satisfy everyone. Especially when you do an hour set or like a lollapalooza. We did an hour so there hour and a half. I can give a nice spread of. Yeah. Don't let you down. This is new. And I and but nothing, you know, in those spots where you maybe extract something they might know. We've got to make sure it's up. It's driving. Definitely going to be detuned. Yeah. And it's that people makes. Yes. Right. So that's, that's what I, that's how I do it. And I try and change it up. You know every. What I do is I have slots. So like the skeleton set. And then there'll be a space where that could be one of five songs can go in there. I always wanted to do that thing of where you do the completely different sets. But we just tried that and just. It didn't. It was too confusing.

[A]

We, we played with you somewhere like in the Far Far east or something. I don't remember. It was somewhere. And I watched about half your show and then I had went back to warm up. But I could still hear you playing. And you put so much pressure on the set that I was playing. Because you played such a great set. Because it had an uptempo feel. Maybe. Does it make sense? Not that it was always up tempo, but it had up. It was. The energy was very up for your show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I thought, oh mother, I gotta go out.

[B]

But we should. I, I, I, I look. I look forward to the day when we talk together again. I think Portugal. I remember Portugal was that warm night and I just thought that we just. We fit really well together.

[A]

I love it. Anytime. Love to tour with you. Couple last questions. I feel like the wheel is finally turning the right way with you. And I'm happy about that because I really think, you know, our ranks are thin. We lost a lot of great people along the way. And I like it when all of us collectively, not we're all. Not that we're all friends, but I like it when we're all strong. I think we actually all win more if we're all strong.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

So what do you want? The people because you've. Because you've survived, you know, whatever the bull was in the 90s, was it so on both. And then there's the downturn in the music business and there's the classic, you know, greatest hits kind of mentality of 2000 audiences and stuff like that. Where do you think the band's landing now? And I don't mean in the present tense. I mean, if people are looking, a 20 year old kid is looking, and they don't care about any of the politics, anything, and they look like, okay, this band was there, this band was there. What do you want them to understand about your band?

[B]

Well, I appreciate everything you're saying because it's very. It's concisely putting a sort of a. An elephant to bed kind of thing. Yeah, it's very, very welcome. We appreciate that. I think it's just to do with. I believe in rock music. You know, I think that it. It really, it's. It's.

[A]

You like. You like your guitar.

[B]

I love guitar and I love the emphasis and I like the way that the combination of a lyric, a sentiment and what a guitar can do, either. Either softly, gently, you know, mayonnaise, you know, or what a guitar can do aggressively, either ways, I find it really expressive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so for me, anyone who's doing rock records, I'm so in awe of and proud of because I think that exactly to what you're saying, the funniest part is that we. It was a ruse all along. They made us. It was like the. We just. We were just like fodder, fodder for the. For the Roman Empire and the people. Because people want. I would rather have five great records than one great record. So there is no competition. The competition has always been within the band, within ourselves, to be the best we can be. And then everyone rises up and, you know. Extraordinary band with you. Extraordinary. Soundgarden, Nirvana. It's just all these incredible Pixies, Fugazi, Jesus Lizard, all these incredible bands. And isn't it beautiful that they. They coexist. The Deftones have also been, you know, really, obviously one of the greatest bands, but really kind of endured. And just like Chino, just because he's such a great singer and it's such a great band. They deserve it.

[A]

That's what it's gained. It's gained gravity over time, which is really cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because sometimes only time helps you understand that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Basically, what the depth tones do and what they represent has gained energy and almost like, I don't know, it just feels like it's got more weight to it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

[A]

Or like, with what Jerry does, Alison, she's always had that gravity.

[B]

But I think also, you know, what's interesting is that, I mean, I try to allude to this on this record. I'd be lonely.

[A]

And you have. These interviews aren't particularly time sensitive. We call them Evergreen. But I know you have a new record.

[B]

Well, I have a new record. What I mean is that I think that it's a really important discussion around mental health. People's mental well being. The truth about the melancholy of people, the disconnection people, which, in fairness, we've been singing about forever. That's what we've been doing.

[A]

Well, that's why we have a thing with Chloe called Sorrow is the family business. That's what we do.

[B]

But you can now see it in the world in the picture that people are talking to it. We just use guitars with that. So I just like it when great bands are making great records. It was fantastic. Know, I'm. I'm happy to see all these bands doing well, and I do like these younger bands coming up. I think that the extraordinary kind of post metal sound, the sort of Bad Omen sound, the. The poppy, just the records they make, it's just like the next level of. Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's good. It's healthy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Last thing. Gavin the Chef, take me into that.

[B]

I wanted to find a way to stay home, and I also wanted to find a way to get my voice back. I felt that I had been in this world for so long, the show business as such, you know, and had only been. This was before, you know, before, obviously podcast, things like that. People now get a sense of what the other people like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In an extended way. Before then, we were always sort of. Exactly. Sort of at the mercy of the editor of how. How they. How we, you know, the cadence of how we speak, what we prioritize, interesting things. And that's like now when we go on TV shows, we, you know, we're not the actors, so we'd. No one asks us anything about how we're doing or what our day was like. We just played the song off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I thought, I've always had this ability weirdly to put food together. I don't know, it's just. I've just been able to put food together. People say to me for years, you should do a tv, a cooking show. I'll be like, doing what exactly? And it's so what I can. I can grill a steak. Big whoopee do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I just came across this. This thing of trying to create a way of staying home, not leaving to work so I could be around my boys more. And I thought, do this interview show. And I thought it'd be so easy. And that was. It was like a seven year process of making the.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I didn't think making the pilots and then showing it to everyone and people like this is amazing. Except for anyone who was a comedian editor. No one who made the reality TV or non unscripted is what we called Nobody knew would sign me who know what to do with this. It was just like my music. I was like, there's a world of no. But then you say to yourself, is it. Is it a world of no or is it just slowly working our world way towards yes from someone like it was in music I just needed one person. And in this I got one person. And. And that seems to be my fate and gives me effectively my truth. Because that's how it is. That's what life is like. There's no carpet rides, even though people would assume there are.

[A]

Yeah. All right. Thank you, brother.

[B]

Thank you.