Gene Simmons | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Summary

Summary of "Gene Simmons | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan"

Released on February 5, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Magnificent Others, Billy Corgan engages in an in-depth conversation with Gene Simmons, the iconic bassist and co-lead singer of the legendary rock band Kiss. The discussion traverses Simmons' extensive career, the evolution of Kiss, personal anecdotes, and reflections on the music industry's transformation. Through candid dialogue, Corgan and Simmons explore what has driven Kiss to remain a cultural powerhouse for decades.

Early Memories and Kiss's Impact

Billy Corgan begins by sharing his personal connection to Kiss, revealing that he had a Kiss poster on his wall before even hearing the band’s music. This early fandom sets the stage for a conversation deeply rooted in mutual respect and admiration.

Billy Corgan [00:00]: "I had the Kiss poster on my wall before I even heard a note of Kiss."

Gene Simmons acknowledges Corgan’s fandom and reflects on the band's early influences and challenges.

Gene Simmons [00:25]: "They were not happy. And I know."

Kiss's Final Shows at Madison Square Garden

The conversation shifts to Kiss's farewell performances at Madison Square Garden, highlighting the emotional weight and significance of these final concerts.

Gene Simmons [02:21]: "We only do two last shows of all time for the band."

Corgan expresses his long-standing admiration for Simmons, noting his warmth offstage despite his larger-than-life persona.

Billy Corgan [02:44]: "You're not a person in my estimation who shows a lot of emotion in your public Persona. Behind the scenes, you're very warm and very sweet."

The Rise and Transformation of Kiss

Gene Simmons delves into the pivotal moments that shaped Kiss’s trajectory, particularly the shift during the rise of disco in the late 1970s. He discusses the band’s decision to embrace the disco trend with hits like "I Was Made for Loving You," despite backlash from heavy metal fans.

Gene Simmons [23:32]: "It was the beginning of disco. We were doing, ironically, what became our biggest single, number one around the world."

Corgan questions the authenticity and impact of this shift, to which Simmons responds by emphasizing the coexistence of live performances and virtual experiences in the future of entertainment.

Gene Simmons [09:30]: "The future is here."

Navigating Challenges and Band Dynamics

The discussion navigates through the tumultuous years Kiss faced, including lineup changes and personal struggles with substance abuse among band members. Simmons reflects on sustaining momentum amidst changing musical landscapes and internal conflicts.

Gene Simmons [26:09]: "Disco. I started living with Cherry. Ace and Peter were leaving the band because they wanted solo careers."

Corgan probes into the band's ability to adapt, commending their resilience and songwriting prowess.

Billy Corgan [36:16]: "Do you feel that too?"

Gene Simmons [36:36]: "I could argue the AC DC or Metallica idea, which is you stay true to the DNA."

Kiss's Musical Legacy and Influence

Corgan highlights Kiss’s extensive discography, from their debut album Hotter Than Hell to Animalize Asylum, asserting that their musical contributions are often underrated. Simmons counters by underscoring the band's commercial success and ability to connect with fans on a fundamental level.

Billy Corgan [43:53]: "It's a straight music snob, but it's... bigger because music is a movement."

Gene Simmons [44:37]: "Rock and Roll hall of Fame. On the other hand, I considered buying it."

Corgan argues that Kiss’s value extends beyond mere commercial success, emphasizing their cultural and musical significance.

Billy Corgan [57:01]: "Part of what makes you great is you guys charted a very American path of, like, we're just going to do what we do."

Personal Anecdotes and Shared Experiences

The conversation becomes personal as Corgan recounts a memorable encounter with Simmons during Kiss’s sold-out reunion show at Tiger Stadium. Simmons shares heartwarming stories about his family and the enduring legacy of Kiss through his children’s successes.

Gene Simmons [40:10]: "And I'm also fine with my hand to God, if nothing ever happens again in my life that a win, that Kiss doesn't continue."

Corgan emphasizes the emotional and inspirational impact Kiss has had on him personally.

Billy Corgan [73:34]: "Kiss is a great band for a variety of reasons, and primarily among them, for me, is musical."

Reflections on Musicality and Band Cohesion

Corgan challenges Simmons on Kiss's musical prowess, advocating that their work, especially deep cuts and B-sides, demonstrate higher quality than commonly perceived. Simmons maintains a modest stance, acknowledging that while Kiss is a good band, there are others with greater musicality and legacy.

Billy Corgan [42:52]: "Do you think you guys were a great musical band? Yes. I'll tell you why. If you want to hear it, I don't want to bore you..."

Gene Simmons [43:53]: "Right thing, right time, right place."

Legacy and Future of Kiss

As the episode draws to a close, Corgan reflects on Kiss’s enduring presence and the potential for their legacy to grow even further posthumously. Simmons reiterates his focus on entertainment and making people feel good, distancing the band’s legacy from deeper philosophical meanings.

Gene Simmons [57:19]: "The reward you can go to the Fall Guy... It's just part of the gestalt."

Corgan underscores his belief that Kiss's true value will be recognized more profoundly over time, not just for their business acumen but for their genuine musical contributions.

Billy Corgan [60:00]: "I would say to any young person watching that if you hear on the street, Ah, Kiss, they're okay. It's like, that's the wrong take."

Conclusion

The episode culminates in a heartfelt exchange, with Corgan sharing a personal story of meeting Simmons on stage, symbolizing the profound influence Kiss has had on his life. Simmons expresses gratitude for Corgan’s support and reiterates the band's commitment to entertaining fans.

Billy Corgan [83:54]: "And have you come over and welcome me. You know who I am, right? There's that little kid in all of us. That's a great moment."

Gene Simmons [84:05]: "Why pay for that? All I know is if you could have told me that the kid looking at that poster at 10 years old on the back of the wall... would be standing watching you guys on stage as an invited guest."

Key Takeaways

• Adaptability: Kiss's ability to navigate changing musical trends, such as the shift to disco, showcases their resilience and business acumen.

• Legacy: Beyond commercial success, Kiss has left an indelible mark on rock music and popular culture, influencing countless musicians and maintaining a loyal fanbase.

• Personal Bonds: The strong partnership between Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley has been crucial to Kiss's longevity, highlighting the importance of internal cohesion in a band's success.

• Cultural Impact: Kiss's unique blend of performance art, music, and merchandising set a precedent in the music industry, making them one of the most recognizable and influential bands in history.

Notable Quotes

• Billy Corgan [00:00]: "I had the Kiss poster on my wall before I even heard a note of Kiss."

• Gene Simmons [09:30]: "The future is here."

• Billy Corgan [36:16]: "Do you feel that too?"

• Gene Simmons [43:53]: "Rock and Roll hall of Fame."

• Billy Corgan [57:01]: "Part of what makes you great is you guys charted a very American path of, like, we're just going to do what we do."

• Billy Corgan [83:54]: "And have you come over and welcome me. You know who I am, right? There's that little kid in all of us. That's a great moment."

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a comprehensive look into Gene Simmons' perspective on Kiss's journey, their strategies for enduring success, and the personal experiences that have shaped the band's legacy. Billy Corgan's thoughtful inquiries paired with Simmons' candid responses provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of what it takes to maintain relevance in the ever-evolving music industry.

Transcript

[Billy Corgan]

Now I have this memory because I was Kiss fan. I had the Kiss poster on my wall before I even heard a note of Kiss.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm so sorry. Ultimately, invariably. And other big words like gymnasium, Living well is the best revenge. It's the.

[Billy Corgan]

We've gotten plenty of revenge.

[Gene Simmons]

And they're jumping up and down like biblical locusts going. You know, it makes no sense whatsoever. And you think, oh, boy. But at the time, they're gonna hang.

[Billy Corgan]

But at the time, the heavy metal fans were not having it.

[Gene Simmons]

They were not happy.

[Billy Corgan]

They hated it.

[Gene Simmons]

I know. So as soon as you start to. Or the soap.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

It's not long before you become somebody's.

[Billy Corgan]

Did I make any sense there?

[Gene Simmons]

Sure. But I prefer to make dollars. Oh, that's another one.

[Billy Corgan]

It's. It's. It's actually too small to introduce you as the man who needs no introduction. Oh, God, you're bigger than that. Oh, you're bigger than that.

[Gene Simmons]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

Let's start here.

[Gene Simmons]

How about Dodger Stadium? When I saw you backstage.

[Billy Corgan]

That's. That's.

[Gene Simmons]

That's. Oh, that's a card.

[Billy Corgan]

That's. That's card three. You're jumping ahead of my narrative.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm so, So.

[Billy Corgan]

I don't mind if you want to interview me. I'm more than happy to do that.

[Gene Simmons]

Sure. How much?

[Billy Corgan]

10 grand. 1 hour you'll fly to somebody's house with a box set for 50.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, that's changed, you know. Inflation.

[Billy Corgan]

Has it gone up?

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, for you to go make an appearance at someone's house, what would it cost a fan at this point?

[Gene Simmons]

It depends how long. But they have paid. 250.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. Yeah, I believe it. You're worth it. That's part of what's in here about how you're worth it. So let's start here.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

It'S the lowest hanging fruit, but I do want to get somewhere with it. So, band plays its last concert. Madison Square Garden. Was it two nights you played Madison Square?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, we just wanted to do one.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm surprised. Sorry. I'm surprised you didn't play 50.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, you're very kind. We. We were offered many nights, but we just wanted to do one. And then the powers that be, especially the videographers and schmittiographers and all those guys, said, well, what happens if the power goes or something? You gotta have a backup. So we did two.

[Billy Corgan]

Right.

[Gene Simmons]

We only do two last shows of all time for the band.

[Billy Corgan]

I know you love your band, and I know you love your band's history. And we will, of course, get into that, but. And you're not a person in my estimation. I've been watching you on television since I was a little kid, since about 1976, I think.

[Gene Simmons]

How old are you?

[Billy Corgan]

57?

[Gene Simmons]

74.

[Billy Corgan]

You're looking good. But here's the point, my point. You're not a person, in my estimation, who shows a lot of emotion in your public Persona. Behind the scenes, you're very warm and very sweet and you've always been great to me. So I don't want to give the sense that you're a cold person. But, you know, you play Gene Simmons on television for a living and you've been great at it. And I remember seeing you, Donahue or whatever I would see you on, and you know, I'd be sort of Mike Douglas.

[Gene Simmons]

Donahue.

[Billy Corgan]

Weren't you on Donahue?

[Gene Simmons]

Mike Douglas. Oh my God.

[Billy Corgan]

I know you're on Mike Douglas.

[Gene Simmons]

You know, they don't know what you're talking about.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, well, I'm 57, right? I mean, I remember Doug, you remember Mike Douglas, Certainly. Okay, my point of saying all this is past all the obvious part of it. How did you feel playing that last show, knowing it was the last show?

[Gene Simmons]

Very emotional. Especially because you're. Well, I was a New York kid. We all were. Although I wasn't born in America. I know I don't look Swiss. So the band started at 10 East 23rd street, which was 10 blocks away from Madison Square Garden.

[Billy Corgan]

So it literally was full circle, literally.

[Gene Simmons]

And I remember as a 20 year old kid walking 10 blocks to see who's playing Madison Square, and you'd see Elvis and stuff like that.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you go to shows back then or did you.

[Gene Simmons]

No, I was a one of those classic Jews who simply refused to spend any money and lived at home until I was with my mother till I was 20. I mean, we were playing Anaheim Stadium, headlining. It happened very fast for the band. And I was living at my mom's house. That's how, you know, Jesus was Jewish. He lived with his mother until he was 33 years old. He thought his mother was a virgin, you know, all that stuff. And it was emotional because somehow the journey, you know, the even salmon returned to Spawn where they were bred. You know, that sort of homecoming thing.

[Billy Corgan]

It sounds trite to say, but did it go fast in your mind?

[Gene Simmons]

No, I remember every minute and every. I mean, I. I never use drugs or alcohol, which is why I can put my hand in front of my face and it doesn't do that. So the Mind is clear. And I recall tastes, smells, things. I remember seeing people's faces. And the overwhelming image I remember is as you're looking around and making, you know, eye contact with somebody in the middle of, you know, the. The passion and the playing and you know what that's like when you're on stage and you really feel it and it's going, sounds good and everything. And they start crying. They get that thing, you know, because it's childhood. It's not just because it's us. It happens to any great band that's on stage that has a history because music is the soundtrack of their lives.

[Billy Corgan]

It's humbling when you see it.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, it's. You know, I gotta. I'm supposed to be Darth Vader and the Big Bad John and all that. I've gotta turn my back often so that they don't see.

[Billy Corgan]

So you're on stage. It's the last show. Like, does it hit you? Like, are you. Like, I'm glad it's over. It's been amazing. I'm alive.

[Gene Simmons]

No, not glad. It's funny, There's a coin, has two different sides. There's sadness and there's pride. There's the sadness of, you know, at some point you gotta leave mom and dad and go off on the next chapter of the journey of life. On the other hand, you're. You're proud that four knuckleheads off the streets of New York with no resume, no experience, no right to be here, no right to wear higher heels and more makeup than your mommy ever wore, were given a chance to make truckloads of money and chicks.

[Billy Corgan]

But you did. But the look, money and success has always been part of the Kiss story.

[Gene Simmons]

There's no point.

[Billy Corgan]

But you did.

[Gene Simmons]

Is true.

[Billy Corgan]

So all that, it's like the Jimmy Cagney movie, right? You know what I mean? You did it, right? You did it. You reached the pinnacle of the thing. There's no higher place to be than you got.

[Gene Simmons]

It's about as high as I ever imagined it. And as a kid, I remember seeing the Beatles on tv and I was awestruck by the idea that you could look different. Because I never saw guys who were sort of trim and small like that, you know, very feminine, moving in a kind of a. Because guys were right.

[Billy Corgan]

Especially 50s New York, right?

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. You had to walk. You had to have your guy thing on when you walk down the street, hey, how you doing? How you doing? You know, there's that street thing. It's culture. And all of a sudden you go, all right. Yeah, all right. Yeah, all right. You know, they're friendly and almost feminine with the haircuts. And I. I never seen anything like that. And I remember thinking they looked silly. And my mother walked in and told me how silly they looked. And precisely at that moment, a singularity hit me. That's when I knew they were cool. Because all of a sudden I heard my mother say they look silly. No, I think they're kind of. Well, the girls are.

[Billy Corgan]

What do they say about Kiss in the beginning?

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, well, not everybody likes Jesus either, Billy.

[Billy Corgan]

Four Jesuses. Not just one or two Jesuses, depending on who you ask.

[Gene Simmons]

I got lots of.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, they're in the notes.

[Gene Simmons]

Lots of jokes.

[Billy Corgan]

We'll get there. It's worth pointing out, you know, you ended the show with the avatars. That's the word I would use.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, in all fairness, just a hint of it. The way you see a sketch on a piece of paper of what the 50 story skyscraper is going to look like.

[Billy Corgan]

But this is the likeness rights. The same people don't own the ABBA thing, which is doing very well.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, it's massive. They've got millions of tickets sold. It's beyond. The future of entertainment is here. AI does exist. You can sit down.

[Billy Corgan]

To me, you're a visionary in. In many ways, but so give me your vision. Because we all know this is going to work, right? Like kids are going to go see virtual Kiss.

[Gene Simmons]

It doesn't matter if you think it will or if you think it won't. The future is here.

[Billy Corgan]

No, but that's what I'm saying is you see it and you're also meeting the people that are going to create.

[Gene Simmons]

It with you already being done.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, understood. So I'm saying is for our great viewers, what does that look like in 10 years? Are people going just as many shows with virtual avatars as they are live concerts? Or how do you balance that?

[Gene Simmons]

All of it will coexist and all of it will depend on the individuality of the experience. There are some people, if you've never met the Dalai Lama, you would want to be in His Holiness presence. I've met the man and obviously seen him in media. That's not the same thing as being in the same room and the back and forth. But I will tell you that AI is. And avatars and so on are, even by today's technological standards, are about as close to reality as you can ever imagine. So I'll give you a sense of what I've experienced. So most people, young people, Especially have had the goggles on where you're falling off a cliff and all of a sudden you actually feel like gravity's gone and so your senses aren't working anymore. So that's a mind, as they say. Now imagine if you weren't wearing the glasses, your sense of the scale of things and what's happening. And you will not when you're in a controlled environment and they're trying different variations of it. Have you been to the big sphere in Vegas?

[Billy Corgan]

Not yet, but I've seen a lot of the clips.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, it's worth going. It's a very simplified, archaic version of it, because you still have a sense of, I'm here, I can look around, I see and look at the like. Like goes back to the Fillmore west when they used to have bands and silhouettes and used to have lights. They go, oh, wow, look mine. You know, that's not the same thing as the virtual glasses. So if you've been to the sphere in Las Vegas, it's a wonderful. You know, all of a sudden you're on the moon and everything, but you don't lose yourself. This is difficult to describe in the same way that when you're speaking to a Neanderthal, and that's actually the way you pronounce the word, it's not Neanderthal, even though it's spelled with a T.

[Billy Corgan]

I learned something today.

[Gene Simmons]

Neanderthal. When you're speaking to a Neanderthal, if you can have a common language and you're saying, okay, so I'm going to get in my jet and I'm going to be 40, 50,000ft above the Earth, enough so I can see the curvature of the Earth, the words. Even though he understands the words, he just couldn't fathom it. So when I start to explain to people what I've seen, what I've experienced, you understand the words, but you have no idea how to say it, you will be blown away, isn't it?

[Billy Corgan]

Obviously, there's the business and there were a lot of headlines about what you guys got to sell your likeness. And I'm interested in that, but I'm actually.

[Gene Simmons]

The numbers are not accurate.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm impressed either way, but God bless. Well, what I'm after is I know it's important to you that Kiss musically, aesthetically, carry on in a particular way. It's got to mean something more to you than just a great business deal.

[Gene Simmons]

I'll tell you something.

[Billy Corgan]

Or am I imagining that?

[Gene Simmons]

Well, there's more than one answer. There was an idea, perhaps an ideal that Paul and I had when we first started the band that had less to do with let's Get Rich and Famous. Although.

[Billy Corgan]

That wasn't a bad idea.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, it's what my people do. Just have you got two tents for a phone?

[Billy Corgan]

I can see who I'm married to. Right.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, even Jesus passed the hat, you know, it's just. But let's put together the band we never saw on stage. That was the idea. And of course, in the beginning, I would imagine lots of bands, perhaps most bands say, you know, I've got this, this creative thing I've got, you know, I'm writing songs and it's fun and everything else. There was a different sense that we had either better for worse, rightfully or wrongfully. We would go see bands that we loved. Love and Spoonful, Sly and the Family Stone, everything. The live experience just wasn't enough. It sounded better on record. And often you were disappointed by what you saw live because they were trapped at the microphone. And once your eyes settled on what you saw on stage.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

You started talking to your friends.

[Billy Corgan]

Yes, it's over. Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

Is that all there is? Peggy Lee.

[Billy Corgan]

Peggy Lee.

[Gene Simmons]

Very good. I'm very proud of you for a young man such as yourself. So the idea of the band is not better or worse than anybody else's idea, but it wasn't because I've got this inner artist and all that. I don't care about that. And I don't. And there's a distinctly different mantra, shall we say, between perhaps the classical and purest visions of music and art and perhaps the way I.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, your version is the. Is the dominant version now.

[Gene Simmons]

Now it is. When we first started, it was about who's got good taste. And I only gave a. About what tastes good.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's well documented.

[Gene Simmons]

Profound difference. And when we first started doing licensing and merchandising, ah, these guys sell out. And you know, you're talking from people who never learned to read or write music, didn't understand music theory. They were self taught, by the way. That's very impressive that people have this urge to be creative and everything, but never went through the process of school and how to do this and all just decided to just kind of bumble their way through it and created this amazing popular art form, whether it's rap or rock or anything else. That's an amazing.

[Billy Corgan]

It's always miraculous.

[Gene Simmons]

It's miraculous. Some, and not everybody can do that. But I don't suffer fools lightly or whatever that phrase meant, which is all my life I've heard hippies, well intentioned though they may be, I just want enough money to get by. I said I'll make a deal with you. Any dollar you make that you don't think you need, please give me, because that's going to make me happier. I will never have enough money, power or anything else, because that's what life is about. Buffering, right?

[Billy Corgan]

But to persist. At my point, is it important to you that what Kiss becomes in its posthumous form.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Is just as.

[Gene Simmons]

That's a big word, like gymnasium.

[Billy Corgan]

It might be posthumous.

[Gene Simmons]

That's correct.

[Billy Corgan]

Neanderthal in Kiss's posthumous form. Is it important for you that the ban is just as significant in this new.

[Gene Simmons]

Okay, tell me why significance is not important. There's this preoccupation with what it all means and. Do I have my mother's hips or.

[Billy Corgan]

That's me. That's me.

[Gene Simmons]

No, I don't. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is I'm clear, and so's Paul. We've had the same vision, though we don't agree on many things. If we can make you forget about for two hours, three hours, whatever that amount is, the traffic jam, or that you flirted with your wife's girlfriend, or whatever it is that causes angst. Sturm und angst auf Deutsch, whatever that thing is that gives you headaches, and we can make you forget about the traffic jams or that there are wars. That's magic. That is magic. That feeling, that uplifting feeling. That's the only thing I care about.

[Billy Corgan]

You're more concerned or you're more interested in the kinetic relationship than. Than the aesthetic relationship. Is that a fair way to put it? Because I would like to make the argument that's in my little note cards here.

[Gene Simmons]

Please do.

[Billy Corgan]

About the aesthetic argument of Kiss.

[Gene Simmons]

Except I'm not sure I know what it means and how to spell it and all that.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you want me to be more, like, specific?

[Gene Simmons]

Well, I'll use specifics. I'd rather be. And I know it's not as important, but I think profoundly, it is much more important. I'd rather be Disney than Shakespeare.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, I get that.

[Gene Simmons]

Because Disney makes people happy. That's it.

[Billy Corgan]

But don't you even. I would argue that there is a deeper aesthetic in Disney. Now they've watered it down. But. But it's Walt's vision.

[Gene Simmons]

Okay, but the intention was to entertain. And Shakespeare is the man of letters and what. It's deep, what it all means and all that. And so there's. It appeals more, but it goes past.

[Billy Corgan]

A lot of people's ears, of course. Yeah. Okay. That helps.

[Gene Simmons]

I want to connect to everybody, even if you don't speak English or if you don't like Kiss or any band's got that problem. The blessing and the curse is you've got your fans and other people say you suck and all that. That's every band.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, we're going to get to that. But. But. But my argument is. Is. Is you've won on every level, so why can't you continue to win on every level posthumously?

[Gene Simmons]

You can't be all things to all people. And it never mattered to me what it all means. There's very little meaning about. I mean, we never talked about the secret of life, because I have no idea. We're all just passing through. And you. You try to make life bearable, entertaining. And that's the wonder of. There's no business like show. You know, that's the thing about this thing. I think it's very good. I'm so impressed. There's this thing about this American. And it's truly an American form, which is it's not kabuki or Kabuki, as they say. So they sne. And, you know, other forms, classical music and all that. It comes from a place of heaviness where your mind is more engaged and American stuff. And I use the Marshall McLuhanesque sense, even though he's Canadian. Is. It's pablum, it's sugar. It immediately tastes good and immediately gets you. That doesn't last long, but, boy, does it taste good.

[Billy Corgan]

See, I would like to make the argument, in our time together that Kiss has greater value than that.

[Gene Simmons]

I appreciate it if that's the byproduct or somebody else does a thesis on the social significance of the panel graphic art form as exemplified by Mickey Mouse. Go for it.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Okay. I still want to make my case. This is a circuitous way to get there, so please bear with me. Kiss, the debut album, Hotter Than Hell, Dressed to Kill, KISS Alive, Destroyer, Rock and Roll Over, Love gun, Kiss Alive 2, the solo records Dynasty, the Elder Creatures of the Night, Lick It Up, Animalize Asylum, and so on. You were there for all of them.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Now I have this memory because I was Kiss fan. I had the Kiss poster on my wall before I even heard a note of Kiss.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm so sorry.

[Billy Corgan]

No, it was great. It was the 1776 where.

[Gene Simmons]

Where ACE was drunk out of his mind.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. I did not know that as a 10 year old child. But Peter had the bloody, you know, the 1776 with the drum and great poster. We had it on our. So every day, you know, when the door was closed, there. There you were before I even heard your band. So the marketing worked. Right. But I also have this memory of like somewhere in the 80s you're doing a bunch of movies, right. Ponytail Gene. You know what I mean? Like there was like, suddenly you were in movies.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. And Michael Crichton was the first.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, yeah. No, you did some credible stuff. And then of course, it was very much about who you were dating at the time and those types of things. I'm not interested in the tabloid point. I'm saying this for a reason. Every band goes through that. Any band that's lasts, because I've been there goes through that weird period where it's like. It's not. It's not the beginning and it's not the end. It's somewhere in the wobbly middle or the beginning of the wobbly middle. And there were some wobbly years there for you guys.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, terrible year.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so in my little rap on these great classic albums, where in your mind, from your perspective, because you had the front row seat, where does it start to get a little wobbly in. Inside the band.

[Gene Simmons]

It was less about inside the band and more what was happening in the world.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so take me through that, please.

[Gene Simmons]

Music changes, new generations of fans come up. So the birth of grunge and thrash and.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm. But I'm with 70s and 80s there. You know what I mean?

[Gene Simmons]

You mean what time?

[Billy Corgan]

Like I'm saying, because everybody can sit here and play Monday morning quarterback, right? You know, that's easy. But when you're in a band, you know, you've got all this momentum you guys had. I mean, you guys had as much momentum as any band's ever had when you had it and you've had it multiple times. But that early period, yeah, you guys were omnipresent. You're making a movie, you know, famously Kiss meets the Phantom. Yeah, I'm saying you had. You had every version of it, right?

[Gene Simmons]

So while the band was sane and playing on stage, there was the all for one, one for all once. Peter and Ace, bless him. And they were equally important for the formation of the band. But not everybody's designed in their DNA to run marathons. Most people, Right. It's difficult to keep a band lineup as, you know, been there. And so once Ace and Peter succumbed to the weaknesses, the drugs and the alcohol and all that there was trouble in paradise. And then you can. You throw, you know, flammables into the flame. And society starts to change and new generations come up and disco comes up. Well, maybe we should do a song. And everybody felt victim. Rod Stewart, the Stones, everywhere. So that starts to change.

[Billy Corgan]

Good. Again, sorry to interrupt you, but I. Because it's important to sort of get at what I'm after. Where for you does you start to have. Where's. Where's the first time you go, wait, this isn't going the direction I thought it was.

[Gene Simmons]

79.

[Billy Corgan]

79. Which is. Is it the disco?

[Gene Simmons]

Yes, it was the beginning of disco. We were doing, ironically, what became our biggest single, number one around the world. I was made for loving it.

[Billy Corgan]

And now you play it live, or you used to play it live.

[Gene Simmons]

We could.

[Billy Corgan]

Crowd would go in, trace all the.

[Gene Simmons]

Way to the end and you could play an ogre fest where there's not a chick within a thousand yards of that place. And they're all singing 80,000, you know, death metal fans. And they're jumping up and down like biblical locusts going. You know, it makes no sense whatsoever. And you think, oh, boy. But at the time, they're gonna hang.

[Billy Corgan]

But at the time, the heavy metal fans were not having it.

[Gene Simmons]

They were not happy.

[Billy Corgan]

Because I was in those basements with people getting stoned, listening to Kiss.

[Gene Simmons]

They hated it.

[Billy Corgan]

They hated it.

[Gene Simmons]

I know. And they hated. And I've written songs with Bob Dylan. That's why I can say the Bob Dylan story. They hated Dylan. When he went electric. He was booed right off the stage. That entire. You know, when. Yeah, when Dylan met the Beatles that first time in London and Len, that famous car ride, was that where he got.

[Billy Corgan]

Got stone too.

[Gene Simmons]

And they got. They were both hyped. But truthfully, Dylan was a failed live performance because the kids came to hear, ah, the times. You know, the world is changing and all that. And they got, you know, the Hawks rocking out a little bit more. They just hated it. So every band, look, not everybody likes Jesus. You just can't please everybody all the time. It's not going to happen.

[Billy Corgan]

You're in the. Arguably, at the time, the biggest band in the world. Right.

[Gene Simmons]

I can honestly say we were okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. Massive. Massive in a way that we changed the business.

[Gene Simmons]

We had warehouses 24 hours, three of them in the Valley, shipping T shirts and everything. We had order forms inside the album, so you can just put cash in and 24 hours a day sending out T shirts. And the days went five and $10 and before people were opening up your mail.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. So I'm saying is you're standing in this very rare position which very few people really understand. I never got that level, but I was in the general zip code. But I'm saying there's that moment when it's rocking and it's rolling, everything's happening, and then you go, whoop. Something's. It's not a little blip in the road or, you know. I'm saying you're like, wait, this is 79, okay?

[Gene Simmons]

Disco. I started living with Cherry. Ace and Peter were leaving the band because they wanted solo careers, even though we talked them into do solo records and stay in the same band. So we released the only band, as far as I know, that released four solo albums on the same day.

[Billy Corgan]

They all went. All shipped platinum or something.

[Gene Simmons]

They shipped platinum. Eventually they all went platinum, but it took a long time. Platinum kids in the days of hard goods meant a million individuals actually paid for it. Instead of beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Which means all. You can download a billion of something and only make a few thousand dollars.

[Billy Corgan]

Not to get into a deep psychological discussion.

[Gene Simmons]

No, go ahead.

[Billy Corgan]

No. Okay, great. Thank you. You gave me permission. Now we know how the movie ends. We started with how the movie ends.

[Gene Simmons]

You don't know how it ends. The beginning. The end is the beginning. The death of a caterpillar is the beginning of the beautiful butterfly. This is. We're in the cocoon stage. You just wait. Rebirth. The phoenix rises from the ashes.

[Billy Corgan]

But at the moment. Okay, so 79, I gotta write this stuff down.

[Gene Simmons]

This is really good stuff. It sounds good.

[Billy Corgan]

We'll get to someone to transcribe everything. Okay, but 79, you're standing there and you're like, this is a bit weird. So walk me through those weird years a little bit.

[Gene Simmons]

Because we were separated, we and Paul and I, you know, co wrote or at least showed each other the songs. And how about this? How about that? He'd bring in a song, Black Diamond. I'd say, that's a great song, but you need a riff. So all those Paul songs, almost lots of them, I'd say that's a really good song. But let me put riffs in that and. Or at least because the way I play bass, more like horn parts, less like Motown.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. I always thought you were more of a 50s bass player. That make sense to you? Does that translate more like, you know, like. Like more McCartney.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, moving around more McCartney. And the way McCartney approached Bass is really more of a guitar player. Almost like a string quartet where the cello has its own melody. And so if you're an AC dc, you can go.

[Billy Corgan]

But that's always been one of the secret sauces.

[Gene Simmons]

It just is what it was. I'd start playing a bass line at what's going on and say, you know, that's kind of catchy because it goes over and over. Let's put the guitar do that and stop playing chords and just do that stuff. And that's where the rip. But we also had harmonies on top of that. Look, we. We didn't know anything. We were just making it up. But Trouble in Paradise 79 disco is full blown, right. Stones, Rod Stewart. Everybody's doing. And it's huge.

[Billy Corgan]

Everybody's doing. It's not like everybody's doing.

[Gene Simmons]

And I'm going to Studio 54 and all the stars are there and all that stuff. And we bring out I Was Made for Loving you. And it just massive immediately. And the core fans are upset except for the fact that the ticket sales.

[Billy Corgan]

You're still selling tickets tons.

[Gene Simmons]

Making more money and the toys. The younger fans came in because all of a sudden mom likes the song and the kids liked it. So we were selling. And our Kiss meets the Phantom movie, Excuse me came out. So we were talking about cartoons and theme parks and all this stuff getting bigger and bigger. But clearly by the early 80s, Disco was taking Going into the shadows. And there's this new. There was punk coming up and I really like the Pistols and the Clash and all that, but you can't do. They already exist. You can't just go, you know what, maybe we could nudge our way there. Grunge came out. We even toyed around with Carnival of Souls with a kind of a. The makeup is off. Let's take the makeup off and see what that. So as soon as you start to bend over for the soap.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

It's not long before you become somebody's. And I don't want to use creative language here, but you. You lose yourself and it's difficult. Difficult to go on a long journey.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so whatever the year. Because you. You face different challenges at different times. But let's. Let's take that one because that's been sort of my focus. 79, 82. Somewhere in there.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, we. We had Peter, quote, leave the band for the first time. He, quote, left the band three different times.

[Billy Corgan]

CNN interview famously.

[Gene Simmons]

Drugs, alcohol, God knows what. It was just a dark cloud.

[Billy Corgan]

So. But I'm saying you standing there, you're in this big band again, we don't know what was coming. We already know it now. But I'm saying for you, by the.

[Gene Simmons]

Way, we didn't either.

[Billy Corgan]

That's what I'm after. I'm trying. I want you to take me into that location because people love to talk about success, you know, I mean, it happens to you. I'm sure somebody comes up and wants to talk about Love Gun or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, they want to talk about their version of your high moment. But what I often think when people are giving me that conversation is, yeah, but you don't understand all these other things that happened either to get to Love Gun or what happened after Love Gun, where you're talking to me through the grace of God. Because I was able to sort of navigate this through. And you guys always had a particular toughness when you're out there, hey, we're the biggest band in the world. You know, this is what we do. There's a swagger to that. But when you're on one knee with the music business, you start getting treated like you know what that feels like. Or you go on the radio station, they treat you like a has been or whatever. That first time that you went through that, how did you navigate that? Like, what did you lean on your relationship with Paul? Like, what kind of held you through it?

[Gene Simmons]

One of the honest answers is that by that time, there was a lot of money. So your perspective of, oh, the world is going to collapse is different when you've got a big wad of cash in your life. And so there's a sense that if the worst happened, you'll be okay.

[Billy Corgan]

Right?

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, that gene.

[Billy Corgan]

So for you, as a. As long as I've got material, solidity, aesthetics or perception, or even my own insecurity, if you even have insecurity, I don't know you to be insecure, but.

[Gene Simmons]

Of course I have insecurities. I know at one point I'm going to die. I don't like that. I object.

[Billy Corgan]

So when you were doing things like movies, was that a way to sort of balance or were you sort of exploring?

[Gene Simmons]

No, I thought. No, I was impervious that I could do anything. And it was the same blind delusion that made me think I could get in a band and we could be, you know, one of the biggest bands ever. And I can act and I can do movies. And it seemed anything I tried. I had my own record company and managed Liza Minnelli and, quote, discovered Van Halen. And anything I wanted to do, it Seemed like I couldn't fail because I had that. Well, I had the loose screw anyway. I'm sure. And you do, too. And a lot of people that get up on stage because you gotta be out of your minds to pick this thing. Because you're putting all your eggs in a basket. Right? So once you have a cushion of money, it's certainly better. Somebody once said, money's not going to make you happy, so you're going to be. If you're a miserable son of a. It's still so much better to be a rich, miserable son of a.

[Billy Corgan]

That's just. Were you a rich, miserable son of.

[Gene Simmons]

A. I was certainly rich. I continue to be. Son of a. Sure. There are plenty of people who.

[Billy Corgan]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, was there a deeper moment of doubt or did you just. Okay, so.

[Gene Simmons]

And the fans give you that doubt, that pause that says you suck. You know when you start reading actual letters? Cause in those days, they were real letters and hate mail and stuff. From the fans that loved you. I used to love you. I've stopped doing that. Every band's gonna go through that. And you just have. You either survive or not. So Peter left. We got a new drummer, Eric Carr, who was just fantastic and try to come back from Unmasked and, you know, the disco stuff. And so we put out a heavier record. And you did Creatures of the Night.

[Billy Corgan]

Great record.

[Gene Simmons]

Yep. Very nice of you.

[Billy Corgan]

Great single.

[Gene Simmons]

And love it. Loud was a. I love it Loud.

[Billy Corgan]

Great video. Great, great song.

[Gene Simmons]

So all that stuff was going on and it did not do well in America. Music was changing. But at the very same time, we played Baracana for 200,000 people in Rio and 135,000 people in.

[Billy Corgan]

Was that Vinnie Vincent? Was Vinnie Vincent in the band?

[Gene Simmons]

Vinnie Vincent was in the band. So the Ankh.

[Billy Corgan]

He had the Ankh.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes. Half the band was gone. And, you know, we just expect people to just accept the new guys. Well, they.

[Billy Corgan]

So are you and Paul looking at each other saying, okay, we're headed the right direction, gotta keep going.

[Gene Simmons]

We liked the record. We're kind of headed in the right direction, but it's not working in America because at the same time, you've got all these different Punk and New Romance and Adam and the Ants and everything else happening. You've got a younger fan base that are more active. So we don't know what to do. So Paul comes up with the idea of maybe it's time to take the makeup off. And I'm going, I'm not sure about that. We have a quote, legacy, whatever. You know, we lasted longer than the Beatles. Beatles lasted seven years and put out all this astonishing stuff. And never, as far as I'm concerned, never decayed. Just kept moving, evolving. But of course, nobody is the Beatles. And so, you know, I gave in. I said, okay, let's see what happens. And this Lick it up record happened, which was okay.

[Billy Corgan]

But you had some big hits off that.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes, Lick it up and a few other things.

[Billy Corgan]

I think you guys, obviously, I don't know all the inner dynamics of your writing together, but you're great writers. Because to me, great writers are able to adapt to the times. Most of the Kiss fans focus on the early catalog, but your 80s catalog has held up very well because you guys are great writers. Do you feel that too?

[Gene Simmons]

I could argue the AC DC or Metallica idea, which is you stay true to the DNA. Well, it's an argument that works well for them. And Iron Maiden. There are some very, very big down.

[Billy Corgan]

Our argument. As a Kiss fan, I think what make you guys so fascinating is. Is the good and the not as good. And I'm not saying it's. I want to go listen to your worst song. I'm saying is your journey is what makes the band so fascinating.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, I. We didn't have a choice because we. We gave in. There were those first records that had, you know, sort of Chuck Berry crossed with this and that. Little Beatles, little Motown, little this, little that. Whatever that thing was, the identity, the fingerprint was diluted as members within the band started to veer from the band. There are other bands that have stayed true to who they are and have survived, become bigger. And by the way, I don't do that. I go, that's their journey. This is ours.

[Billy Corgan]

Personally, I find it a bit boring. Your version of reality trumps mine nine times out of ten. But the thing that I think makes Kiss interesting and part of the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I think your guys are going to win in a way that you've never won before over time. Because you do, you're able to. It's so hard to say in one sort of sentence, so maybe I'll make the case. But what I'm trying to say is there's a lot more value in Kiss than even people who have evaluated Kiss to this point understand Kiss's true value. That's kind of what I'm after. Did I make any sense there?

[Gene Simmons]

Sure, but I prefer to make dollars. Oh, that's another one. The only Thing I care about is a brand new five year old who experiences Kiss or the imagery, even if it's not the music, just somehow gets seduced and beguiled by that.

[Billy Corgan]

My son is 8 years old, and when he was 5, I showed him a video of you guys and I said, that's Kiss.

[Gene Simmons]

That's the magic for me. And when that. That feeling comes, even if it's just from the visual side, and then maybe you like some of the tunes because there are. There are fans who kind of go, oh, I like that. Who's that? Then they discover the visuals, but they dress up like us in Halloween. It's a deeper kind of thing, so.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm a snobby musician and I want to make a snobby musical argument about you.

[Gene Simmons]

Okay, well, that's why everybody's got their own journey, right?

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm sitting here with one of the architects, so, you know, I'm not arguing with snobbery. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. One of the architects of the thing I want to argue about.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, okay, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

Which is Kiss. You know, the Kiss, the franchise.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, look, a painter paints a painting, a writer writes a book, or Disney puts out a new cartoon character, and the buyer, the audience, makes of it what they will. You're using your words. The snobs like it for snobby reasons. The other ones like it because it's sugar and it takes. Who cares what it is? What is that impressionistic painting about? Well, I see this and I see that it's all valid.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, let me put it in Gene Simmons terms. I believe Kiss will endure because Kiss's value is greater than the material value that you're ascribing. And you're not wrong. But I think my argument will bear out over time. That's my point. I could be totally wrong.

[Gene Simmons]

Fine. And I'm also fine with my hand to God, if nothing ever happens again in my life that a win, that Kiss doesn't continue. It stopped. Now I'm the luckiest bastard who ever walked upright. Half a century of amazing times and memories and, you know, all happily married. Fantastic. Just the best. Shannon, two great kids who are both immensely successful. Sophie's Got Video billboards across the world. Cause she's one of the big Spotify writers. She writes with everybody and produces, manages, does that. And Nick's music is in TV shows. Prodigal Son and Ozark and all that. And do they ask dad for opinions? Nope, they just. Totally different. And somehow they found their niche. And Shannon is I have to say, the moral heartbeat of it, because if it were not for her. I tend to be an extreme person. Not with chemicals and alcohol and stuff, but with pleasures, cake, the chicks, all that. Just one is, you know, it's like the potato chip stuff. One is never enough.

[Billy Corgan]

I know you've heard this, so I don't. I'm not in any way trying to offend you, but. But I hear it, you know, like, Kiss fans are Kiss fans. Right? They love the band.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, there's all kinds.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, Right, Absolutely. But if you're a Kiss fan, you're a Kiss fan, and you can argue about why you're Kiss fan, but Kiss fans tend to be Kiss fans. You know what I mean? They love the band, Warts and all. Right. Coming and going and all of it.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

People who don't like Kiss, like, ugh. Right. You've heard all those things through.

[Gene Simmons]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. My personal opinion is. And I've had to think about it through the years, because I didn't share the opinion, but, you know, when you hear it from enough people, you start to think, well, maybe there's some validity there. You know, whether it's people didn't like Peter's drumming or, you know, they didn't like the 80s version of the band, the lick it up version and stuff like that. You know, I mean, there's that kind.

[Gene Simmons]

Of vibe out there, and that's fair.

[Billy Corgan]

I think you guys are grossly underrated as a musical outfit. Okay, but how do you feel about that?

[Gene Simmons]

Not an issue for me in. In any way, shape or form.

[Billy Corgan]

Do you think you guys. Musically. We're just talking music shop, two musicians. Do you think you guys were a great musical band? Let's take the original lineup. Start. Start there. Do you think you guys were a great musical band?

[Gene Simmons]

It was a good band. There was certainly. There are certainly.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm gonna argue with you. You guys were a great band.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, that's.

[Billy Corgan]

And I'll tell you why. If you want to hear it, I don't want to bore you, but I'm saying. I'm saying you guys were a great band. And I. You know how I know? Because I heard it enough that I went back through and I thought, okay, of course I know the records. But I went back through and I listened to every song you guys released between whatever. And it got weird. Every, like, every. I don't care. The deep cuts, the B side, whatever. I listen to all of it. And I walked away and thought, they're better than I think they are. And I already think they're really good.

[Gene Simmons]

They're very kind. But I do want to. I'm clear about one thing, and that is the experience of something doesn't have to be fair, which is to say it's not. It's usually and or often not just about music or musicianship or even image. There is a gathering of the tribes. It's cultural in today's terms, but we're talking music now.

[Billy Corgan]

It's a straight music snob, but it's.

[Gene Simmons]

Bigger because music is a movement. So in today's terms, either you're a swiftie or you're not. And if you don't get it, you just don't. It's not for your ears.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, but like, you and I could sit and talk for an hour, easy about the Beatles. Musicality, not the Beatles. Cultural relevance, not Yoko, just the Beatles as a band.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm talking about Kiss as a band.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes. If you ever wrote a song in your life, your jaw would drop at the simplicity yet complexity of those harmonies and the songwriting, it just defies.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm here to talk about you, the music.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. I don't know. We couldn't shine anybody's shoes.

[Billy Corgan]

I think you're wrong.

[Gene Simmons]

Okay, well, that's fine. A guy throws, you know, there are guys that throw paint on a canvas and go, okay, here's give me a few million dollars, and they're happy. And somebody says, oh, that's genius. It's all valid because anybody's perspective, but.

[Billy Corgan]

Your perspective is what really matters to me. Right.

[Gene Simmons]

So I'm about to answer it as best I can, which is, I thought it was a decent. Continue to be a good band, you know, meat and potatoes.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. But you take your average rock band, just your average good rock band, and you've seen enough of them through the years, okay? You take a song like Ladies Room, right? It's like, wasn't a big hit. Right. It's not necessarily the song you're going to be ran for those bands wish they could write that song. Okay, Was that your song or was that mine? It's a great song.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, that's.

[Billy Corgan]

That's what I'm saying. That's where you won me over.

[Gene Simmons]

Of course, the little subtlety was I'll meet. Meet you in the ladies rooms. Was M E E T meet you. M E A T as a sexual verb. I'll meet you.

[Billy Corgan]

This comes from your teaching background. Thank you. The multiple applications of the word meat language is delicious. Yes, but that's my point. When I did the deep dive. And I'm being a snob here.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm reminded of an anti snob lyric I had. I think it was Burn Burner, one of those awful songs. I've got nasty habits. It's a fine line. So many girls and so little time when love rears its head I want to get on your case I want to put my log in your fireplace. See, now that's. That's poetry where I come from. And the fans hated it.

[Billy Corgan]

You guys figured out very early on whether it was intuitive, right? That you could use the media to put a log in the Kiss fireplace and make you guys bigger, right? You figured that out. I remember watching you on whatever Mike Douglas, and I thought, wow, I don't understand this because I was used to everybody pretending. Of course, now I know it was all fake. And you knew it was fake. You figured out it was fake.

[Gene Simmons]

Life is fake. Once you leave your house, before you leave, you look in the mirror because we all wear costumes. And Shakespeare said it, the whole world.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, now we're back to Shakespeare. I thought we didn't care about Shakespeare.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying it's one of the journeys. So.

[Billy Corgan]

At what point did you figure out I'm going to use this system, flip it on its head, because I remember very distinctly. Okay, great. I don't know if I was 10, 12. And you told the truth in a way that nobody in the media told the truth at that point.

[Gene Simmons]

You know, girls understood this thing much more than guys. As a girl who wants to go out to a club and one of her friends calls her and says, so the club's happening, come on down. So the first thing a girl wants to know is, so what are all the other girls wearing? They go, oh, all the girls are wearing short black outfits. Well, if she's smart, she's going to put on a red, short outfit. Because the idea is you've got a minimal amount of time to make an impact, right? And that's the only thing we tried to be the band we never saw on stage. Not the best band or the worst band, but just to be. Just immediately.

[Billy Corgan]

But you were 50 years ahead of your time in understanding how to exploit the media by its own bias.

[Gene Simmons]

That's true.

[Billy Corgan]

Was that you that figured that out or did you and Paul figure it out or you just. Was it in the band?

[Gene Simmons]

Paul and I were cognizant of the fact that we were Anglophiles. We liked because we had a record before that In a band called Wicked Lester.

[Billy Corgan]

I've heard it. There were lots of flutes, if I remember.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, it's just, you know, pablum.

[Billy Corgan]

There's a Wicked Lester version of a Kiss classic. But it's like, oh, yeah, She.

[Gene Simmons]

A song called she, which has flute in it. Yeah. Because when you have no idea where you're.

[Billy Corgan]

I won't make an argument for Wicked Lesters during musical lengths.

[Gene Simmons]

And we bought that record from Epic. It was going to be on Epic. We bought it back because we didn't want it released. And then said, you know what, this is wrong. We've got to get rid of the guys that they can't play. They don't.

[Billy Corgan]

He got rid of the flautist.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. Yes. Who's a music teacher.

[Billy Corgan]

Are you still in touch with the flautist?

[Gene Simmons]

He's passed on, unfortunately. Most of the guys unfortunately, passed on. And let's. And then there was a sense of, what do we love? What do we love? We love Zeppelin. We love the Beatles, we love. We love English music. Well, why aren't we writing English American songs? And that's what it's based on. So Paul liked, you know, let's see. All right, now, I think, was just coming out there. So he's humble.

[Billy Corgan]

There's a lot of humble pie in early Kiss, right?

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Steve Marriott. Right. Oh, did you see them? You ever see them live?

[Gene Simmons]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

So good. Right.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, and I'll never forget the swagger. I ran into Marriott later on in life and I hadn't seen him in a while and everything, and he was in a recording studio and I happened to be coming in as he was going out, Just a tiny miniature, like a hobbit, like a small bundle of energy, you know, the sort of cockney. Although I'm sure he wasn't actually. I don't know. And Steve, how you doing? All right. Where have you been? And he said, up your mother's bum. And I thought. I just meant to say, I haven't seen you in a while. And he may have thought. I said, you, career may have been on hold. I haven't seen it. Yeah. And it was just so it was that quick thing and he was off and I went, yeah, that's real. Because that guy, when he hit that stage. Have you ever heard people don't know this Robert Plant, one of the great voices forever. Have you ever heard where Plant got all his stuff from?

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, there's the Small Faces recording.

[Gene Simmons]

It's Marriott.

[Billy Corgan]

He's literally doing Steve Marriott. He's ripping off every Ripping off the.

[Gene Simmons]

Melody, the lyric, the whole thing. Robert Plant worshiped Marriott, and Marriott was.

[Billy Corgan]

Later asked, you know, good person to worship.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, but. And his tonality, you know, that's.

[Billy Corgan]

Even be able to do it.

[Gene Simmons]

To do it.

[Billy Corgan]

But when I heard that stuff, having heard Whole lot of love 500 times, I. I was like, wait, there's a blueprint for this. Had no idea.

[Gene Simmons]

The genius of Zeppelin is are those rifts. Jimmy Page came up with more riffs than any other guitar player I've ever heard. And so simple, it's the E, the D and the B. So whether you're going, ba da ba da ba or all the variations are those three notes in that, you know, blues scale.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm sure you. You must have shot at some point with Charlotte Scarlett Page, Jimmy's daughter. Did you ever shoot with her?

[Gene Simmons]

Yes, she was with Ross Halfon all the time.

[Billy Corgan]

Our good friend Ross.

[Gene Simmons]

And of course, she got sick and tired. Tell me, dad, she go, okay. But finally became friendly with Jimmy. And I will tell you one of the highlights of my life, being an Anglophile. As we were playing Wembley, and it was kind of a big deal, and everybody came down, and Jimmy came down to check the band out. This was 20 years ago or so. And that night we played well. And Jimmy came up to me afterwards and he actually said to my face, and I'm still sweating and, you know, still with the stage, my heart's pumping, and I see Jimmy and I'm looking down. He said. He actually said you could give John Entwistle a run for his money. And I, of course it's not true, but I just about passed out.

[Billy Corgan]

That's a nice compliment.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, my goodness, it meant the world to me.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, I'm still on my musical snob tip, so bear with me.

[Gene Simmons]

By the way, why is that, like, whatever it is you like is what you like? Why call it snobbery? For whatever reason you like, something is its own definitive reason?

[Billy Corgan]

Because. Okay, you've been honest with me. I'll be honest with you. Like I said, I had the poster on the wall. So I've been listening to kiss since 1976, and I still listen to you guys regularly. You're one of those bands I still like. If I'm having a bad day, I'll put on one of your records. Because you guys just put me in a good mood. You're always there for me as a band I can lean on to get me in the right headspace. Right. That's a musical appreciation note. But my point Is over time. I got sick of hearing the musical community. Not, not bands. Because bands know how important you guys are as a musical band, whether it was Pantera or Dave Grohl, like, everybody knows Kiss is a great band that are musicians, but you kind of get this rap from like fan community. Like, you know, whether they like Prague or whatever. The like Kiss kind of gets kind of. Yeah, they're okay.

[Gene Simmons]

Why is that important? Why is that important?

[Billy Corgan]

It's important to me.

[Gene Simmons]

Why you like what you like.

[Billy Corgan]

No, let me finish. It's important to me because I don't like the world of gatekeepers that tell average fans, just like I was in a basement in Chicago, what is important. It's the same reason they kept you out of the Rock and Roll hall of Fame all those years. Because those snobs would not say, this is a great band, this is an influential band, this is an important band, culturally, aesthetically, musically. On the other hand, I'm not trying to fight your fight for.

[Gene Simmons]

But what I'm saying is it's okay. That is true. Rock and Roll hall of Fame. On the other hand, I considered buying it. See, it helps not to be born in America. I really believe that when you're an immigrant, legal, because there's a difference and America allows you to climb the ladder of success and everything, the one thing that you're astonished by is the shitload of money and, and opulence you're allowed to have. It's just mind numbing. So for me, if that's the only reason, if the only thing I get out of it is that it made me, by some standards, very rich. Fine.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, a different take on my argument. You made all that money because you're in a great band.

[Gene Simmons]

Okay, but I would be. I, by the way, I think I would be maybe not just as happy, but certainly happy. If I put out Gum Gum style and those 2 billion people paid for every one of those copies, I wouldn't be sad.

[Billy Corgan]

Kisses. Okay? This is a musical take.

[Gene Simmons]

Kiss, by the way, what I'm saying doesn't negate.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh, I know.

[Gene Simmons]

Your validation.

[Billy Corgan]

No, I love, I love that you. As I sit here and talk to you, I realize that so much of Kiss's success and its endurance in success is because exactly because of your mindset. If you had my mindset, it wouldn't have worked. Does it make sense? If you were an arty farty weirdo like me, it probably wouldn't have worked.

[Gene Simmons]

But not for Kiss.

[Billy Corgan]

That's what I'm saying. But now that it's all over. Not that it's over over. But now that it's over this way, we can sit here and reminisce. Right. And I can sit here and make the argument to one of the architects who's been writing, you know, in my head on some level since 1976. Right. It's a rare opportunity. Well, I wasn't there in the beginning. Sorry I missed the first couple.

[Gene Simmons]

Not my fault.

[Billy Corgan]

My point being is I can make the argument to you as a fellow musician in a way that I probably couldn't make if we were at a bar, sitting, even having dinner. This is a unique opportunity to kind of make a case, not only to you, but obviously anybody watching that I think you're a great band. I get sick of hearing this kind of dismissive vibe.

[Gene Simmons]

Thank you.

[Billy Corgan]

But not that you need my defense.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm okay, but.

[Billy Corgan]

But I like the. Let's call it the intellectual sort of riff on it. That's all.

[Gene Simmons]

I appreciate that. But ultimately, invariably. And other big words like gymnasium. Living well is the best revenge. It's the.

[Billy Corgan]

We've gotten plenty of rice.

[Gene Simmons]

It's the reward you can go to the Fall Guy, which is this big new movie with Ryan Gosling, I think it is. And the opening thing is I Was Made for Loving. You know, throughout the movie, they keep playing that tune. You don't even. It's just part of the. The. The gestalt. The part of.

[Billy Corgan]

Or zeitgeist or.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, zeitgeist. The. The co. It's become part of culture. And we just got a pilot thing. I just said okay to. There's a new Disney pilot where there's a guy who's a major insane fan who's got a large standee of me, you know, at makeup and stuff. Wherever he goes, he likes to take it with him. That's part of the storyline. Do you mind that? No, sure. You know, go ahead.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Let me make a slightly different argument. If from the first get out you were in New York, obviously New York critics.

[Gene Simmons]

I love that Midwesternism, that. From the first get out, that's great.

[Billy Corgan]

Head east was big in Chicago. That's all you need to know.

[Gene Simmons]

I remember on A and M Records.

[Billy Corgan]

Right, if you guys had been loved by the critics from the first moment you set foot on a stage, if all you'd ever heard. And you know those bands. There's those bands out there, but it's like they can literally on a plate, and some critic will talk about how holy the whole thing was, but you didn't get that.

[Gene Simmons]

But it doesn't matter.

[Billy Corgan]

Just follow my intellectual ramblings. Please, just indulge me. What I'm trying to say is, part of what makes you great is you guys charted a very American path of, like, we're just going to do what we do. We're going to tell you what we're doing. We're going to be totally transparent about it. You're still being transparent about it. Right? But somehow, in all that makeup on, makeup off, makeup back on somehow, you guys made a lot of great music because you're great songwriters. You were at the right time, at the right place, at different times, where you created classic music.

[Gene Simmons]

That's a very important phrase. Right thing, right time, right place. Okay?

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm saying.

[Gene Simmons]

Because if you wrote 1979 in the 1800s, nobody would care. Same song, same vibe, same everything. And they'd hear it. They wouldn't even understand what to do with it.

[Billy Corgan]

So I'm just making my own little intellectual argument here, which is that your value is greater as a musical unit than you get credit for generally. And I believe that will be part of the reason that people will listen to you 50 years from now. Not that you were ahead of your curve and all that stuff, because now there's 8,000 bands with face paint and. You know what I mean?

[Gene Simmons]

Saying, quite honestly, I. I don't even think about it. I'm so.

[Billy Corgan]

I get that feeling. Yes.

[Gene Simmons]

I mean, I walk around, I'm a happy.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you pay for that?

[Gene Simmons]

You know, that's very good. By the way, my wife, who told me about this, it's a good piece of advice. Get a piece of copper, regular copper, not diluted, but full, 100% copper, and glue it onto your cell phone, which you hold more than anything else, and it kills National Institute of Health. It immediately on contact. Kills all germs on your hand.

[Billy Corgan]

Really?

[Gene Simmons]

Including Covid.

[Billy Corgan]

Why is there not a KISS logo on that copper? All right, enough of my indulgence. Staying with music, though. Music only, not even personalities, because I.

[Gene Simmons]

How come you don't talk about yourself and your writing and your music and all that? Don't you have an inferred fiduciary duty to yourself?

[Billy Corgan]

I'm in a band called the Smashing Pumpkin. Still, we're about to play 17,000 people in the O2 arena here in a couple days, so I know you know what that feels like. Okay. Strictly musically. I remember reading an interview where you were talking about the way Peter played drums. Peter's off. Criticized as a drummer. Okay? Like, it drives me crazy because it's like when people criticize Ringo.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, you can't. But you can't. Those are musical parts. Those are not drums.

[Billy Corgan]

Peter's kind of weird Motown.

[Gene Simmons]

He's a. He's a throwback to when drummers had swing. So he's not. He was never a rock drummer.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. But that's what makes the music so good.

[Gene Simmons]

That certainly helped that sound. Yes. If you had. If the kick was too heavy, you know, Bonham later. And Bonham got his thing from Carmine, the American drum.

[Billy Corgan]

And even maybe in the. Jethro told drummer. If you ever went down that rabbit hole.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes. Look, everybody listens to everybody else. And you like this. You, like, take a piece. And your DNA then becomes your own. But it's a pastiche.

[Billy Corgan]

How did you. But again, all personality stuff aside, how did you feel about Peter's drumming at that time? Because you're the bass player. Did you like playing with him? Did you like the swing?

[Gene Simmons]

We loved the feeling of it. It made the music seamless. But I have to tell you that Peter. We were all untrained musicians. Peter played by feel and didn't play by verse, bridge, chorus ideas, and didn't quite understand that because he was not a songwriter. He didn't play a musical instrument. Drums are percussive, not music. So literally, you can hear Strutter or one of those songs and the pattern on the drums is different in the bridge, then it'll go to a verse pattern. In the verse pattern he had in the middle of the chorus battle or in the rift and switch to a chorus pattern. And there's some strange thing that worked at it, but not logically. I mean, when Keith Moon. He's not Keith Moon. He couldn't touch Keith Moon. But when Keith Moon played with the who, you can't quite figure out what the patterns are.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, look at Kenny Jones, who's a great drummer.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Playing with the who, it just was not the same.

[Gene Simmons]

Kenny was more a school musician, but a great drummer. Yeah, a great drummer. But stayed. It brought the energy down. This wild thing. So I'll never forget, however good, bad or otherwise, Paul's out there putting on his Southern. All right, y'all gonna do a song now. It's called Strutter, and it's good, you know, he's talking about a girl walking down the street, you know, and he's doing that thing. And I'm hearing. And I turn around because I'm a little bit in the dark. Paul's got the spotlight and Peter wants to say, and I. My hand to God, Peter's going, which one's that one? And go. You know the prudent Broughton Bruton, bro. Oh, and this is after we rehearsed it for 100 times. He was a feel guy. You know, you see the template and you're about to play a song, you know, where the bridge and the chorus are gonna be, you know, eight bars of this, then you do the riff, you know where you're gonna go. Peter was just along for the ride.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I played with a musician once, a very well known musician. He said, oh, I don't. I never play the same thing twice. Yeah, it was to play Jimmy Chamberlain's drums, drum parts. And Jimmy plays the same thing every night. I know, but it doesn't sound like.

[Gene Simmons]

Or at least I'm aware.

[Billy Corgan]

Right. I mean. And he plays these crazy parts. So I was like, well, how do you do that? How do you not like. Basically it was like, I make it up as I go along. Right.

[Gene Simmons]

So I understand that field drummers, jazz drummers are closer to that.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, no, that's, that's. And you know, he always positioned himself as, you know, he had that weird story where he would tell about. Was it Gene Krupa and sitting with Gene Krupa. You ever read that story from Peter? Well, I don't know how true it is.

[Gene Simmons]

That's. I'm glad. You said though that in the old days those drummers would play the top of the kit and something called dropping the bomb would be when the kid wouldn't. They were hardly used. The kid.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

So it was all top.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

Stuff. And there are lots of stories Peter's told about Gene Krupa and they're very entertaining.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, Ace, when I did my deep dive where I had this revelation about that you guys were a lot better than I thought you were and I already thought you were great. Ace's playing came at me differently. Maybe because I was paying so much more attention. How did you feel about Ace's playing?

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, he immediately tore open the. The. The doors of what could be, what should be. Because we were in a rat infested loft, maybe twice as big as this room with egg. Egg crates that we stuck on the wall that still had cracked some cracked eggs. And of course, at night the huge dinosaur cockroaches would come out.

[Billy Corgan]

Oh my God.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, it was horrible. There were no windows and everything. But we didn't care. We were doing this thing and wow, we're hearing that sound and we auditioned players and this guy comes in who plugs in. We had double stacks, Marshall Major, 200 watts.

[Billy Corgan]

200 watts.

[Gene Simmons]

We had money.

[Billy Corgan]

That's the Richie Blackmore amp, by the way.

[Gene Simmons]

That's right. Very underrated guitar player.

[Billy Corgan]

Incredible.

[Gene Simmons]

Ace plugs in and starts playing while we're talking to another guy. And I walked up to him, I said, buddy, you better sit down before I knock you out. What are you doing? We're talking. He was oblivious that there was another meeting going on, that he had to sit there civilly and wait for his turn. And when he got up. Okay, we'll get. Listen, pal, we're going to do a song called Deuce. Here's the rift. You know, a major, da da da, da da da. We'll do, you know, two verses, bridge. And when the riff starts, I'll point to you, you've heard it enough. And you do a solo based on the riff. You said, ah, okay. And he talked like that. And we're going pause. A weird guy. He's got one orange sneaker, one red sneaker, just, you know, pigeon toed and all. Oh, boy, this guy's gonna be. And then he dug in and his head, you know, like he's on stage. Just that rubbery thing. And Paul and I looked at each other. Wow. And you don't know what you're looking for, but you certainly know when you hear it and see it. And it immediately said this weird guy. Rubbery thing on drums that we couldn't get to focus on. That's the bridge feel you're playing in the chorus. And this other guy was, you know, and there you are. It just kind of happened. You can't. We didn't have a manager. We didn't have a. There was no. There was no Don Kirschner saying, here's the monkeys.

[Billy Corgan]

And yeah, to me, Ace's playing is like. It's almost futuristic somehow.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, I'll tell you a big bit of info is Ace was so serious about his guitar playing the solos is he would go home and learn and he would work out the guitar solos so that when he would play live or in the studio, they were parts. Just like.

[Billy Corgan]

He played the same thing.

[Gene Simmons]

He would play note for note with the right vibrato and everything. That's when he was committed to it. And that's one of the things live fans kept pointing to. Wow. It sounds just like. You bet it is. Because he cared enough to learn his own solos.

[Billy Corgan]

What a cool guitar player.

[Gene Simmons]

His influences spoke loudly. Paige and Beck and, you know, but.

[Billy Corgan]

He'S Also influenced so many other people in a very unique way.

[Gene Simmons]

Dimebag and everybody and Kirk from Metallica, everybody. Lots of guys went, you know, Ace was the first guy. But it also, again, is. At a certain age, you start to listen to certain music, and that influences you.

[Billy Corgan]

So do you remember this band, Static X?

[Gene Simmons]

Sure.

[Billy Corgan]

Did you ever know Wayne the singer? Do you remember him?

[Gene Simmons]

No.

[Billy Corgan]

So when we were in an indie band in the 80s in Chicago, Wayne had a band called Deep Blue Dream, which I was in briefly. He tried to talk me out of the Pumpkins. Say he was a very good singer. They were kind of like the Cult at that point, if you remember, like Rock Cult, you know, Rick Rubin's version of the Cult. Wayne was like, look, I'll be the lead singer, you'll be the lead guitar player. We're going to be huge. Tried to talk me out of the band. I was like, no, I'm going to stick with my band. But Wayne had a car, like an old car, and he had painted the Kiss logo on the. On the hood of the car. So anywhere you would go in Chicago, you'd be driving, oh, there's Wayne's car, because he did the Kiss logo. And one of my favorite stories about Wayne was he was in the studio recording a song, and he was having trouble figuring out the solo. And somebody heard him mumbling to himself, and they. What you saying? He said, I was wondering what Ace would do because he was such a Kiss fan. So in his mind, Ace, like, if he could figure out what Ace would do on the song, that was the apotheosis of, like, accomplishment.

[Gene Simmons]

It's the highest compliment. And the Melvin's bus that Nirvana drove around had the Kiss logo all over it and all. I mean, I. I know all those stories.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

I remember Mike McCready was telling me that when he first started Pearl Jam, when he first started guitars and everything, that he'd listened to Ace and, you know, and in was one of the first solos he learned from a song called She. I said, mike, I don't know how to tell you this, but that's note for note, note for note. Guitar solo from the Doors. Ace liked it so much, he just reproduced it. He goes, no, I didn't know that.

[Billy Corgan]

I learned something. All right?

[Gene Simmons]

So my point is, it's always very appreciative when somebody says, you know, love your stuff or this stuff. Everybody's got bits and pieces of stuff. Listen to Zeppelin songs. You'll hear lots of blues, very recognizable blues songs.

[Billy Corgan]

But in the moment of the time, And I do want to talk about Paul, but in the moment of the time, did you feel that you had something magical or was like, this is just our band and we're going to go forward no matter.

[Gene Simmons]

No, we were aware that culturally, because kids of all ages, you get grown up.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm sorry. On my musical rant.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, the musical.

[Billy Corgan]

But I'm saying, did you feel you had something, obviously that that lineup produced a lot of music that people still listen to. Did you feel that at the time.

[Gene Simmons]

The impact and the success and the culture was a much bigger.

[Billy Corgan]

Sure.

[Gene Simmons]

Had a much bigger impact. There was not a lot of discussion of, you know, that's a decent song. And maybe we. Maybe we should get Rolling Stone a good. Never Care.

[Billy Corgan]

I'm asking you. That's what I'm saying. That's my. That's my. This is my indulgence with this interview.

[Gene Simmons]

So my sense of. Some of those tunes are pretty decent material. And I could point to a thousand bands that were much, much better and maybe not as successful. I mean, Humble Pie opened for Grand Funk Railroad at Shea Stadium. Humble pike had wiped the floor with Grand Funk. Are you kidding?

[Billy Corgan]

Grand Funk's a pretty good band, though.

[Gene Simmons]

I liked it too. But you can't touch Marriott.

[Billy Corgan]

And even with Jerry Shirley, Peter Frampton in that band.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, well, I think when they opened, they may have.

[Billy Corgan]

With us, Shirley.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corgan]

But I get what you're saying.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah. So. And you know, Jimi Hendrix is opening for the Monkees. So the fact that the Monkees are headlining, does that make him a better band? I loved the Monkees for different reasons, but when you see Hendrix, it's another world. And he was booed off the stage.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, but part of my rap is, I think we're seeing. In the. In the streaming era, we're seeing a democratization now where what people actually listen to is creating the true dynamic of music culture, not a critics culture for young people.

[Gene Simmons]

Yes.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay, so that's my point is, I would say to any young person watching that if you hear on the street, Ah, Kiss, they're okay. It's like, that's the wrong take. Kiss is a great band for a variety of reasons, and primarily among them, for me, is musical.

[Gene Simmons]

Well, it's appreciated, but it seems to continue.

[Billy Corgan]

I got a really good story, which we'll end on, but it wouldn't be fair if we don't touch on Paul. At what point did you realize that your. Your bandmate, who you. You. You guys never left the band, the two of you, that you guys had.

[Gene Simmons]

Something that was sort of unique from day one. He didn't like me when we met each other.

[Billy Corgan]

Does he like you now?

[Gene Simmons]

Sure. You sort of. I think we both have this sort of like the brother that we never had.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah.

[Gene Simmons]

That doesn't mean you agree. I mean, Cain and Abel didn't get along very well, but they were brothers.

[Billy Corgan]

Like when you did the reality show, was it true that he was like, not happy about you?

[Gene Simmons]

He hated it, yeah. And I offered him take over a year. Call it the Paul Stanley Family Jewels. You know, I've got an 8, 8 season commitment, 167 episodes. Take over a year. Do it. He hated it. He didn't agree with the. He wanted to be more English. Like we just play guitar, we don't do the other stuff. And I had a different point of view, I think movies and licensing. He was not as much of a fan of Toys, Games Licensing and Merchant.

[Billy Corgan]

When it did help bring the band back to a certain degree.

[Gene Simmons]

No question. Paul was. Paul was there much more musically when I was asleep at the wheel. Paul's able to write any kind of music and sing almost anything. A much better vocalist, better looking guy, in a better shape.

[Billy Corgan]

Talented, talented guy. And driven like you.

[Gene Simmons]

Absolutely. And great family guy. No drugs, no booze. You can't find that in rock and roll, you know, in bands. But early on, at the very beginning, we recognized in each other, I'm going to do better with this guy than if I do it on my own. So when our first band, Wicked Lester, had our equipment stolen in Chinatown, we had nothing. We turned to each other and I went, well, you know, what are you going to do? And he's going to, well, what are you going to do? I said, well, I'm going to go upstate and I know this guitar player. I'm going to put another group together. And he said, can I come with you? And so right away we were HitchHiking on Route 17 to put another band together. And eventually wound up in New York and put Kiss together. I'll give you a quick story. We started poking fun of each other's songs. I'm going, all you ever. Paul starts saying, all you ever write about is monster songs. Like I'm the God of thunder and all that. What? What did you say? Oh, that's a good idea. I'm gonna go home and write that thing. I'm the God of thunder. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna write. He goes, oh, you like that, huh? So he went home right away and wrote God of Thunder. Before I had a chance. But before the conversation ended and I said, and all you ever write about is stupid girl songs. I'm Christine sixteen and all that stuff. Just like that. And he said, what? What did you say? Oh, you like that? So I immediately went home and wrote Christine 16. When I told him I made the mistake. When we first put the band together, we were co writing Rock and Roll all night, that kind of stuff. And I said to him, I'm going to go home and I'm going to write a song. I've got a great idea. You've got brown sugar, you know, about this prostitute and everything. And about this black prostitute. I'm going to write my own brown sugar called Black Diamond. How cool does that sound? He goes, yeah, that's cool. Out on the streets for a living. A black diamond. He goes, that's cool. He went home and wrote the song before I had a chance to write my own Black Diamond. I said, what the. And so when he showed the chords, I go, that's really good. But you need this riff on top. Otherwise it's, you know, you know, A minor. You know, it got just chords. Chords. And so we complimented each other on a lot of stuff. So wherever. Yeah, I'd like to think he knew and continues to know stuff I don't. And vice versa.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah, I have that with Jimmy Chamberlain, the pumpkin strummer.

[Gene Simmons]

It's like, you don't have to say the pumpkin strummer to me.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. But it's that weird thing where it's like, why are we together in this life? But when we play either, that makes all the sense.

[Gene Simmons]

Your stuff better.

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that guy or not. That guy's unbelievable. Okay?

[Gene Simmons]

And I would argue the same thing about Ringo. Pete Best may have been the original drummer.

[Billy Corgan]

Anybody who has an unkind word to say about Ringo and the Beatles is insane.

[Gene Simmons]

I'm there and I have Ringo. How lucky am I, I have Ringo. When I first day, who sent me a video says, all right, Gene, happy birthday. I'm going.

[Billy Corgan]

Peace and love, Gene. Okay, this is our big finish. You may remember this. Probably not. Reunion Show, Tiger Stadium, 1996. Right. Is that accurate? You don't remember? You were there. It was sold out.

[Gene Simmons]

95.

[Billy Corgan]

Okay. Doc McGee was your manager.

[Gene Simmons]

Yeah, Right.

[Billy Corgan]

Allison Chains was opening.

[Gene Simmons]

Sad story. It was going to be Stone Temple Pilots and Weiland and I had a discussion and I said, this is your chance. There's going to be a lot of media things sold out in 40 minutes. You guys open up and. But I want you to Be straight. You got to promise me, Gene. I promise. You know, like all addicts, I promise. Then he died. And then I saw Lane backstage. We got Alice in Chains because we love the band. And before he went up on stage, said, lane, this is your chance. I want you to be straight and all that stuff. And how. And shortly thereafter, he died.

[Billy Corgan]

Lane's a tough one because obviously Scott, too. But I remember watching from the side of the stage, they kind of had played for a couple years because of Lane's drug issues. Lane was super skinny. He's wearing this. Almost like this black spider. But his voice, that voice that would come out of that body.

[Gene Simmons]

Nobody sounded like that.

[Billy Corgan]

Unbelievable. Anyway, here's my story.

[Gene Simmons]

And so why don't you recognize that magic that affects everybody in your yourself to keep yourself alive? What is that? That goes with Cobain and other people?

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that's when I have you back some other time. We should talk about that. That would be a great subject called 27.

[Gene Simmons]

That's about the 27.

[Billy Corgan]

I didn't know that.

[Gene Simmons]

Mind blowing. All these super talented and lucky people who never realized the amazing impact they had just to keep themselves alive.

[Billy Corgan]

Yeah. It hurts my heart for my generation when I think of all the people that would still be here making music.

[Gene Simmons]

I know. Or just keeping their families happy.

[Billy Corgan]

How about just being alive? Okay, my story. So I'm a big rock star, and I'm seeing KISS at the big reunion show. Tiger Stadium. Sold out in 40 minutes, according to Gene. And of course, I want to know where I'm going to watch the show from. So I talk to somebody and they say, no. No stage access. None.

[Gene Simmons]

It's true.

[Billy Corgan]

No stage access. I say, well. Well, you can go. You can go out to front of house and watch the show. I said, I'm not going through that crowd. Me like, me 95, 96. Me like, right. No way. That crowd's gonna kill me.

[Gene Simmons]

No, they won't. But go ahead.

[Billy Corgan]

Where can I watch from? Well, maybe you could stand in front of the front of stage. Well, I'm gonna be like this all night. I don't know. I want to watch it like that with. So I'm like. I'm literally. You guys are about to go on. It's like maybe 10 minutes to showtime, and I'm literally standing by myself. And I could see the ramp up to the side of the stage, your side. And Doc McGee comes up and goes, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm just trying to figure out where I'm going to watch the show from. He goes, come with me. He walks me up on the side of the stage where your bass tech is. He says, stand here. There's nobody on the stage except you guys. Your text and me. Okay? Now, I know it must have come from the band. Nobody on the stage. At least that's what I guessed. So you do your bit with the blood and the fire and the da, da, da, and you're coming over to take your break. You got a towel. You're wiping yourself down. And you know when you're. When you're in full gimmick, as we would say in wrestling? Yeah. You're a little wound up, right? And you're imposing. You got the boots on. You're. You're a big guy already. And here you come. And I'm standing there, and I'm thinking, is he gonna see me get pissed off? Now, we had met, of course, many times, but I'm somewhere I'm not supposed to be. And what am I going to do, tell you in the middle of show? Well, Doc said it was okay. So you're wiping yourself down, and I see you go. I'm thinking, oh, here it comes. He's gonna get mad. You go, billy. And you waved me over and you said, are you enjoying the show? And I said, yes, it's amazing. He said, great. Have a good time. So I, of all the Kiss fans in the goddamn world, got to be on stage with you guys during that night. What a great night. Because you're a great band and I'm proud to know you well.

[Gene Simmons]

You're very nice. But for me, the most important thing is hopefully they liked it because your bosses and my bosses buy tickets, and it's all for them. And without them, we'd be asking the next person in line, would you like some fries with that?

[Billy Corgan]

To be honest, I don't know how many people were there? 60,000 people. I didn't give a shit about any of them. All I know is I'm being straight up with you, okay? God bless KISS world, God bless the band, everything. All I know is if you could have told me that the kid looking at that poster at 10 years old on the back of the wall.

[Gene Simmons]

Oh, I understand.

[Billy Corgan]

Would be standing watching you guys on stage as an invited guest.

[Gene Simmons]

I understand.

[Billy Corgan]

And have you come over and welcome me. You know who I am, right? There's that little kid in all of us. That's a great moment. So thank you for that.

[Gene Simmons]

How about five bucks?

[Billy Corgan]

No, you don't get from me.