← The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
Joe Mantegna | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan
01:27:10
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- [00:00]
A
Ironically, you mentioned that I got a residual check for a penny yesterday for Simon. And Simon. One penny.
- [00:05]
B
Were there Judas groupies?
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A
There were Judas groupies. There was a group called the Process.
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B
Hot Goth Girls.
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A
Yeah.
- [00:11]
B
I'm down.
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A
They came to see Godspell, and I'm playing Judas and Godspell at the intermission.
- [00:16]
B
Such a good story.
- [00:17]
A
Yeah. And I walk in, and the owner of the place looks at me, goes, joe Montaigne, you summoned a bitch. You're gonna be in a Godfather movie.
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B
Oh, my God.
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A
But that's all I knew.
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B
The pizza guy.
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A
The pizza guy.
- [00:29]
B
I know you're a big star and all.
- [00:31]
A
Oh, yeah, I'm a big star.
- [00:33]
B
But we got to start here.
- [00:35]
A
Okay.
- [00:36]
B
The Apocryphals.
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A
The Apocryphal.
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B
Wow me. The Weasels.
- [00:41]
A
Further back. You are going further back.
- [00:43]
B
This is your high school band?
- [00:44]
A
Yes.
- [00:45]
B
It was about 65.
- [00:48]
A
About 64. 65, yeah, that's correct.
- [00:51]
B
Take me.
- [00:52]
A
Take you back.
- [00:53]
B
I'm very interested in this part.
- [00:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And I get to tell us to a rock and roll God here. This is. This is good for me. This is. This is fun for me. Well, what it. Basically, what it was is it was junior. I was a junior in high school, and we were in. It was English. English in my English class.
- [01:12]
B
Okay.
- [01:13]
A
And I remember that the assignment was, what? Want to do something on English history, meaning England. English history. They said, you come back with a project based on something that has to do with the history of England and how it's affected.
- [01:28]
B
So the Beatles.
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A
So the Beatles. So in other words, of course, everybody else was digging up things like, well, there's a Cromwell and there's this and that. Everybody's digging up the kings of this. And there was another guy in the class who's actually a wonderful musician, my friend Neil Sordelli. And he had this idea. He goes, well, you know, the Beatles are really big now. He says, you know, I play guitar. He says, and you sing? Because I'd been doing some singing in the theater department at the school at the time. He says, maybe we should just do something. You know that's English, right? I said, yeah, that'd be cool, because we really didn't want to work very hard on this project. So we said, we'll do this. We'll do this thing. We'll come in, we'll learn a Beatles song. You play the guitar, I'll sing it, and we'll say, well, this is part of English history with the Beatles. Because they were, like, red hot at that time. So of course we did it. But when we did it, I mean, it was just him and I. And I think we had another guy in the class who just used like a bongo drum to just give us a little percussion while we sang the song.
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B
Yeah.
- [02:23]
A
But the, the class went crazy. Like, oh my God, this is great. It was like, we're like, hello.
- [02:30]
B
Well, maybe we got more of this.
- [02:32]
A
More of this. So we decided just for fun, let's do. Well, the teacher then asked us, you know, there's an assembly coming up if you guys want to duplicate this at the assembly. I think the kids would enjoy this.
- [02:43]
B
Yes.
- [02:43]
A
So of course we took it seriously. We get, we get this other guy. Now these are all Italian guys because this is Cicero, Illinois. So you're either Italian or Polish or something in between. Yeah. So Chris Montagna, Joe Montaigne, Tommy Masseri and Neil Sordelli. These four people, we, we put together this thing. There was an or we had an extra guy that we didn't wound up not using. Lady named Art Stout. Maybe because his name didn't end in a vowel, we didn't stick with him. But anyway. But we took this seriously. So we had one guy's Tommy the drummer. Tommy Messeri. His sister made us little jackets without the collars because the Beatles were wearing them. Then she like made them out of material.
- [03:21]
B
Beetle wigs.
- [03:22]
A
Yeah, beetle wigs. The whole thing. And we figured, well, we. Let's call ourselves the Weasels because it's kind of right. Crimes a little. It'll be fun. We'll come out on stage at the assembly. And they said, here they are, Morton East High School's own the Weasels. And people go weasel. What? And then we would do this number.
- [03:38]
B
Yeah.
- [03:39]
A
Well, we do that assembly. And we had. The auditorium is a. It's. It's like a landmark place now. It's called, I think the Cole Auditorium. It's in Chicago. It's in Cicero, Illinois. But it was built like in the 30s. Holds like 2,500 seats.
- [03:52]
B
It's packed.
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A
It's packed. It's beautiful theater packed with students with finished the song. They go berserk. Cuz the Beatles were just so hot. And I guess we sounded pretty good. They go berserk. So they're screaming at us. We leave the stage, they're. They're stamping their feet. They want another song. We didn't know another song. So we came back and played the same one over. So with the song you played, I think it was Please, Please Me, I Think it was giving the. Must have really got him when we got to that part.
- [04:21]
B
That's a tough song, though. You might. You guys must have been decent.
- [04:23]
A
Well, we. We were decent. I mean, like. But decent enough, you know.
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B
But you did record records. There were 45s and.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah, we did a couple records. We did. Because ultimately the Weasels became. The head of the drama department, embraced us.
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B
Yes.
- [04:37]
A
He came up with the name the Apocryphals. So we changed it to the Apocryphals. And so within the Midwest at that time, we were pretty popular Chicago band. Like just the local band. We were a cover band. We played. If. We played in the. The kind of the hippie neighborhoods. We wear paisley shirts.
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B
You're touching. You're touching me here because you're about five months younger than my father. You guys were born in the same year. And my father was playing in bands around Chicago at that same time.
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A
What was the name of the band?
- [05:06]
B
He was never in any kind of bands that did anything. Never really recorded much. But he. But he was playing all those same places you guys were playing. So I saw a list of the.
- [05:12]
A
Places you guys played, like the Blue Village, the Cellar. He played all those dark spots.
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B
So you guys might even have played together. So it's. I grew up hearing about these times.
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A
Exactly. The Cheetah. You know, we played all. Well, that's the Cheetah. The Aragon Ballroom.
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B
Right. They kind of made, like a psychedelic.
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A
They turned it into the Cheetah. And there was one in New York and there was one in Chicago, the Aragon. And it's. Yeah, because it had this beautiful kind of. If you walked in, there was all.
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B
It was supposed to be kind of psychedelic, right?
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A
Yeah. They changed it, in other words. So behind it, you saw all these, like, Moorish towers and things. Because the original.
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B
It's still there.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
We just waited if recently.
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A
So. Yeah, you know. So what they did is they just. Underneath it, they put in. Oh, yeah. They put in psychedelic lights.
- [05:56]
B
Did you ever open for any other kind of famous bands?
- [05:59]
A
Yeah, well, we. We opened for. Well, we opened for Neil diamond once. We opened for.
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B
He was pretty hot back then.
- [06:08]
A
Yeah, he was pretty hot. And we played at the Dick Clark. Used to have a thing called the Dick Clark Young World's Fair. They'd have the International Amphitheater in Chicago. So we played along with the Kingsman, who had Louie Louie at the time. We played with Dave CL5.
- [06:22]
B
Oh, that's nice.
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A
We played with Sam the Shaman, the Pharaohs. But we, like. I Said we were the local opener band.
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B
I just think it's interesting because not many, I've met very few people who actually were in the world that you were in and. Oh yeah, that's the world that I heard about growing up.
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A
In fact, we played a Kentucky State Fair and we played with a group called the Missing Links.
- [06:42]
B
Right.
- [06:43]
A
Who as it turned out, Chicago Transit Authority became Chicago Transit Authority. Then Chicago. In fact, we remember it was kind of monumental when they changed their name because we were playing, I remember we were playing at the Cheetah, which was the old Aragon Ballroom. And they were on an off night as the Missing Links. And they came to see us and they came backstage during the break and they said, hey, we're changing the band. We're getting rid of the guitar player. Because the father and the guitar player weren't. That was.
- [07:07]
B
He didn't have an Italian name.
- [07:08]
A
Yeah, yeah, whatever. And so they said, we're gonna let Terry, who was the bass player, Terry Cat. Terry's gonna play lead and we're adding a trumpet and a trombone because they already had the sax. Walter Perizada was already sax. So they went from like a four piece band to seven. And he says, and we're going to call ourselves Chicago Transit Authority. And we're like, oh, great. You know, then of course when they left, we went, they're nuts. Yeah. How are they going to support seven guys? Yeah, you know, you know, seven piece bands were unheard of.
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B
What I want to ask you, because you were in this environment. My father often talked about the reason he was fearful of those times and he didn't maybe get as far as he would have liked, was the sort of the mob influence in Chicago involved the, in the clubs and in signing bands.
- [07:50]
A
True, Absolutely true. We, we, we were the house band at a place called the Purple Twig in Lyons, Illinois. And Lions, Illinois was like.
- [07:57]
B
As soon as you say Lions, I start laughing because we know what that means.
- [08:00]
A
Well, you know what that means because in, in that small town that you had a place called the Gigi Agogo, you had the Club Algiers, you had the Purple Twig. And all these things were a little nefarious in terms of ownership and what they were all about. And there was this one guy who used to hang out there, you know, he'd sit at the bar and we were the house band there. We played for many, many. I remember he called us, he said, I like to get together with you guys. I got a business proposition. So we all met at my house, my parents house, and he explains to us. He goes, look, I got these connections in Vegas. You guys will be the band and, you know, you'll play. And he was very frank about who we would be working for. Basically, he said, he'll never be out of work. He'll be working all the time. Because. And we were. We got nervous. We're like, you know, 17 years old, and we're thinking, you know, we started making up stuff like, yeah, no, we would love to, but, you know, I've got this sick mother we take care of, and we can't leave town. You know, whatever it is. We decided not to take that route.
- [08:55]
B
Yeah.
- [08:56]
A
And so. But there were. There were a couple bands that kind of went that way.
- [09:01]
B
Was it the thing back then that they would kind of give the wise guys, like, clubs? Like, they kind of. You ever hear that? The idea would be that, you know, a guy would be a wise guy.
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A
Yeah.
- [09:11]
B
Kind of get a little old on the older side, not want to be in the game as much.
- [09:14]
A
Oh, give him a club.
- [09:14]
B
Kind of give him a club so he can make his money.
- [09:17]
A
It sounds right. I mean, it's. It's certainly.
- [09:19]
B
I'm not saying you have knowledge. I'm saying.
- [09:21]
A
No, no, no. Yeah, absolutely. Because in a way, much of Vegas was kind of like that anyway. It's. It's really true. Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of. Even the casinos back then.
- [09:31]
B
One funny thing I wanted to tell you. You guys played with the Buckinghams. I'm sure you probably.
- [09:35]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [09:36]
B
So. So when I was a kid, my father was close friends with Dinky Fortuna, the bass player.
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A
Okay.
- [09:43]
B
So I remember being five years old, like, in Nikki's house.
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A
Oh.
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B
You know what I mean? And Nikki had the brand new Cadillac and Fortuna of the Buckinghams. You know what I mean?
- [09:53]
A
I was close to Dennis Tafano.
- [09:55]
B
Yeah.
- [09:55]
A
Who was the lead singer.
- [09:56]
B
Yeah. So I just think it's so cool that, you know, despite our very different paths in life, we have this beautiful kind of connection.
- [10:03]
A
Absolutely.
- [10:04]
B
To that time. Because it was. I think most people have a hard time understanding that. Music culture back then particularly, was very small. There weren't a lot of musicians. You know what I mean? Not like there is now. I mean, there was, like, in all of Chicago, there was only a handful of bands, and everybody kind of knew each other and.
- [10:20]
A
Right.
- [10:21]
B
My dad even talked about how you'd play a set, pack up, go across town, play another set.
- [10:24]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:25]
B
It was just a different culture.
- [10:27]
A
No, it's true. And there'd Be these teen clubs that's, you know, and if you did well at a certain club, they'd, you know, you can. You'd be a semi regular. And sometimes, I mean, literally when the band.
- [10:35]
B
You gotta play nice music for the people.
- [10:37]
A
Well, exactly.
- [10:37]
B
That'll look nice.
- [10:38]
A
And I remember one. One instance when Chicago became Chicago, when they became Chicago Transit Authority, and they started to. Wanted to do their own stuff. Yeah, but the kids back then, you know, this is the 60s, they want to hear top 40.
- [10:50]
B
Yeah.
- [10:50]
A
So I remember literally there was one night, it was a Saturday night, we get a call from one of these clubs I think was the Blue Village out in Westmont. They gave us a call, say, can you guys get out here? You're off? Because we were off that night. We happen to be off. Can you guys get out of this goddamn band? The Transit Authority, they won't play what the kids want to hear. And they're booing them and stuff, and they're pissed. And he says, I'm going to get rid of. If you guys can make it, I'm going to get rid of them. You guys finished the night and we. Well, okay, we packed up and we. And we went and the guys were getting. They were packing their stuff as we're coming in and we're like feeling bad for them. We're saying, geez. And we're thinking, how stupid are they? Why don't they just play, you know, do Shadows of Night Gloria. That's what they want to hear, you know, and they're like. You can see they're mad. They're leaving. They weren't mad at us. They figure out. But of course, wasn't long afterwards their first album came out. And that's when I realized I gotta do something else.
- [11:37]
B
So in poking around on your story, I feel like there isn't much information of, like, what started your interest in acting. Like, if it's a story that's been off told, I'm sorry, but I couldn't find the one quote that was like, I saw somebody. And I decided or somebody in my.
- [11:54]
A
Family to try to make it concise. It's this. I had seen the movie. I had no inkling to be an actor. Nothing pointing my direction. Nobody in my family, nothing in my culture. I hadn't even seen a play till I was like 15, 16 years old. But I saw the movie west side Story, was captivated. I stayed in the theater at that time and, you know, sure was the Olympic Theater in Cicero. Saw it probably four times in a row because you Long as you stayed in your seat, they never kicked you out, you know? So I watched, thinking, this is so. Like, maybe.
- [12:24]
B
What was it about that.
- [12:25]
A
That sort of. It was just because it was the music, the dancing, the urban thing. I grew up in inner city Chicago.
- [12:32]
B
You see yourself somewhat.
- [12:33]
A
Not that I was in a gang.
- [12:34]
B
Culture, I get, but it was like. It was an identity thing.
- [12:36]
A
Yeah. It was like a fantasy gang. And I'm thinking, I live on the streets like this. I have friends like this. We're like, wow. You know, we never lived in a house. We always lived in apartments. It made. I could relate to it. So sometime later. Must have been within a year or so. There were signs at the high school saying, auditions for a West side Story. What the hell is that?
- [12:53]
B
Oh, wow.
- [12:54]
A
I already saw the movie. What are they making a. I didn't know it was a play. They said, no, no, no, it's a play. It's a play. God, maybe. Could it be possible? You know? And I think I'm gonna try out for this play. So I learned. Yeah. I go in, I audition. I didn't get the part. I got. But I got up on stage.
- [13:10]
B
That doesn't make for a good movie. You're supposed to get the part.
- [13:12]
A
No, but in a way it was good because I got up, I sang the song. But I was only 15 years old. I think I sing the song. I get to the last note. Maria. My voice hadn't even changed, and I got this applause. And I thought, man, nobody's ever applauded anything I've ever done before. And it was that moment I said to myself, I gotta. I gotta pursue this. Wow. I'm gonna pursue.
- [13:33]
B
Was there anybody in the family who had a history with nothing?
- [13:35]
A
No.
- [13:35]
B
Wow.
- [13:36]
A
Nothing. No. Once in a while, when I was growing up, they would say, joey, sing that Johnny Ray song. You know. You know, Heartache. You know, I was. I was like. At the birthday parties, I'd be like.
- [13:48]
B
You know that whole thing about Johnny Ray, how he had hearing aids and all that.
- [13:51]
A
I did.
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B
That's such a crazy. Yeah, that's super deep Johnny Ray stuff.
- [13:55]
A
Yeah, it is.
- [13:56]
B
How he sang like that. That's why he sang like that, because he couldn't hear himself.
- [14:00]
A
Him and Gene Pitney were like my two favorite singers back in the day.
- [14:03]
B
Yeah. Please forgive the projection, but the Chicago I remember, particularly the. The Italian neighborhoods, you know, they wouldn't necessarily think of a life in the arts as a. As a masculine. No, as a masculine endeavor. Did you get. Did you get guffed from the neighborhood.
- [14:22]
A
I didn't get really gut from the neighborhood. It was more like. More like, okay, you know, I think maybe they just trusted that. Maybe it's just a phase or just like, I guess it's okay. It's not. What kind of surprised me was that I had no reaction from my parents. My mother and father, who were pretty fairly old school and my brother's eight years older than I am. So I remember asking my brother later on, I said, you know what? The. Mom and dad never made any mention about me doing the. Being. Wanting to be an actor and going to the show business. Did they ever talk to you about. It Goes. Actually, they did. He says, early on, we looked like you were taking this seriously. They said to him, said, your brother, this thing with the acting. Should we say something? Should we? They wanted, like, permission to stop me, maybe. And God bless my brother in his wisdom, you know, said, look, Joey, he's a good kid. He's smart enough that if it's a phase, he'll leave it alone and walk away and do something.
- [15:22]
B
That's an amazing thing to find out later, though, right?
- [15:24]
A
I found out later, and that's exactly what it was. And my mother lived to be 101 years old. And I'm fairly convinced that she really didn't know what I did for a living. Even up until she died. She kind of knew as an actor, people have her watch things I did, but she didn't understand it and didn't care. You know, it was like, is that.
- [15:41]
B
Just old country stuff she didn't really understand.
- [15:43]
A
It's just like. It was more like she couldn't really. It didn't relate to it. His point is, she was more interested, how are your kids doing this, that and the other. And this is what my son does. But it's like, not. She wasn't like, okay, that's so funny. As long as you're safe and having a good time.
- [15:58]
B
So how do you end up in hair? 1969 is what 1969.
- [16:02]
A
Well, I've been acting.
- [16:03]
B
Wait, did you have to be naked? Because it was the thing.
- [16:05]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There was a nude scene. I mean, it's. It. They make, you know, it's. On paper, it sounds more exciting than it was. But still, I mean, the first act ends with, you know, everybody's. We've got this giant, almost like tarpaulin, but it's made out of, like, gauzy material. And it's. And we're all seeing. The whole cast is, like, floating. It and singing, you know, whatever we're singing the song was at the time it ends the first act. And then you throw it up in the air and we all go up under it. And then these lights shine on it. On it. And it makes the pattern of flowers and there's little slits in the thing. And so now we're underneath the thing, we start going, beads, flowers, freedom. As you come up, each person through the slit, they're naked because underneath you took off all your clothes. Okay. But you've got strobe lights going. You've got flashing lights. You got this. It's so.
- [16:48]
B
It's like a moment of liberation.
- [16:49]
A
It's like a moment of liberation. And it's also. Tom o' Horgan, a director, realizing this will sell. This is be a good publicity thing.
- [16:57]
B
Was this a localized hair production?
- [16:58]
A
No, no, this was the. This was the Chicago. I mean, it was. Same director, Tom o' Horgan. No, it was Broadway. The Broadway show was still going on.
- [17:05]
B
Okay. That's what I was trying to understand.
- [17:06]
A
Was a huge hit. Think of it like being. Nowadays would have been Hamilton. It was.
- [17:12]
B
It was monstrous franchised out.
- [17:13]
A
It was huge. So it was the Broadway show. Now they opened a production in.
- [17:17]
B
Where did you do it? In Chicago.
- [17:18]
A
What? The Schubert Theater. Shubert Schubert downtown. So there was an LA production at the Aquarius Theater. They renamed that theater the Aquarius. Then we had the Chicago production. So one time it was those three. Then they started open others there was. And we ran for like a year and a half in Chicago. It was a huge hit. This show was.
- [17:35]
B
How'd you. How do you feel about the grind of theater life? Because that's. I've never done live theater, but it always strikes me the whole eight. Eight shows a week or.
- [17:43]
A
Yeah, well, I would hear. I was. When I was maybe 20 years old. So I mean, I'll do 16 shows a week if they want. I mean, it was.
- [17:51]
B
I'll be naked as they.
- [17:52]
A
Yeah. I mean, because it was fun. I mean, it was. It was free form. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was exciting. To this day, I'm still close friends with many of the people from the show.
- [18:02]
B
Sorry, this is an indulging question, but.
- [18:04]
A
Like.
- [18:06]
B
I mean, being naked in this culture isn't really a big deal anymore. But being naked in that culture was a pretty big deal.
- [18:12]
A
It was a big deal. Yeah.
- [18:14]
B
Is there a self consciousness that goes on with being naked suddenly in front of the world?
- [18:18]
A
There was something empowering about it because Tom Organ during the rehearsal progress really kind of instilled in us. He says, don't be embarrassed. Don't be. They're going to be more embarrassed than you are. You got to own it. This is what you know. And you got to remember 1969. Peace, sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Woodstock had just happened. So, like, no, man, this is Vietnam War was on. So the audience was more nervous than we are, you know?
- [18:43]
B
Plus, they'd all heard about us.
- [18:45]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And a lot. Remember, a lot of the. A lot of the cast's parents either would not see the show or if they did, or were a little nervous. But my. My mother. Of course my mother.
- [18:54]
B
Your mother came.
- [18:54]
A
Oh, of course she came.
- [18:55]
B
Okay.
- [18:56]
A
Anybody? Okay.
- [18:58]
B
She may not understood what you did, but she understood you standing naked.
- [19:00]
A
Yeah. But what was great afterwards, the cast was so impressed by this. My mother comes backstage and goes, oh, the play was great. You. She goes, and you're. You got a nicer body than a lot of these kids. And that was her comment. And these. Some of the kids in the cast whose parents were, like, aghast that their. Their child was in a nude scene. Not even a scene. It's like, it lasts for 10 seconds. But my mother's take on it was like, you look pretty good up there. I thought, that's my mother. That's why she lived to be 101. Nothing bothered her.
- [19:29]
B
I'm particularly obsessed with Godspell because. I don't know why. It's just one of those weird.
- [19:35]
A
Yeah.
- [19:36]
B
Things in American culture. Like, I saw it as a kid with no context.
- [19:40]
A
Right.
- [19:41]
B
I knew there was Jesus Christ Superstar.
- [19:43]
A
Right.
- [19:43]
B
And I got The Godspell was somehow related. It was another Jesus, like.
- [19:47]
A
Exactly.
- [19:48]
B
But I remember seeing it at the time, you know, somewhere in the 70s, maybe on television or something, and thinking, this is so weird.
- [19:55]
A
Right.
- [19:56]
B
And it strikes me as such an anachronistic kind of moment in time, you know, Jesus personality cults.
- [20:03]
A
Right. So you didn't see the play in Chicago in the early 70s? No, because you would have seen me do it, but go ahead.
- [20:08]
B
No, I. No, I didn't. I wish, because I'm getting there. But I did see, like, a revival production maybe 10 years ago in New York.
- [20:15]
A
Okay.
- [20:16]
B
And felt a bit musty, but because it's. It's very much of its time.
- [20:20]
A
Got it.
- [20:21]
B
You know, it has a 1972 kind of thing to it.
- [20:24]
A
That's when I did it.
- [20:25]
B
Yes. I mean, I usually. Literally, when you watch it, even the movie version, it's. It feels like what Chicago felt Like, to me, as a kid in 1972, was like, people wearing macrame and whatever that was.
- [20:36]
A
Right.
- [20:36]
B
Those. Those. Those types of faces, those types of bodies, that type of optimism, even. And of course, you play Judas in the thing. So what's your. Of course, if you want to share anything about being in the. But I'm more curious how you. How you see Godspill in the rear view mirror as a. As a sort of cultural moment, because I think it's such an. If you look across the American landscape, there are these moments where things kind of. There they are, but they don't really make sense. Like, they. They don't necessarily translate 50 years later.
- [21:06]
A
Right, right.
- [21:07]
B
You know. Well, I feel like you were in Godfather, the Godfather 3. Right, right. But so that's one of the. People still talk about the Godfather. I mean, people are obsessed with the Godfather.
- [21:16]
A
Right.
- [21:17]
B
Not so obsessed about Godspell.
- [21:19]
A
Right, right.
- [21:20]
B
And it came out of a. Whether it was a junior college production or something.
- [21:24]
A
Carnegie Mellon. It was a college production that John Michael Tubb, like.
- [21:29]
B
Real people came in and put money behind it and fixed it, and then it became what it became, and it's this institutional thing.
- [21:35]
A
Right.
- [21:35]
B
So I'm saying, you having been at sort of the ground zero of this moment and also in the production, I'm just curious for your sort of reflections on that.
- [21:43]
A
Well, my reflection was it relates a little to what you said earlier, the thing about the Jesus thing. Because I remember right after Hair closed, the next thing I tried out for was Jesus Christ Superstar. Because that was the next thing out there that was like. Was like, wow, okay. And I went to New York and tried it. That didn't work out, you know, which was fine. But then within about six months later, God spelled it was. So it seemed like there was like an influx of like, wow, these Jesus got things happening.
- [22:08]
B
But indulge me here. What's a theatrical tryout like that? Like, you'll go to Broadway. Okay. It's a big production. Android Lloyd Webber, Right?
- [22:19]
A
Superstar. Yes, it was.
- [22:20]
B
I have a funny story. They once asked me to rewrite the music for Jesus Christ Superstar.
- [22:24]
A
Oh, wow.
- [22:25]
B
And Andrew Lloyd Weber didn't like my answer, and I got thrown out of the whole thing. But that's another story. But. But just take me through a theatrical edition, because I literally don't know anything.
- [22:35]
A
About theater, you know, at that a song and then. And then be prepared to do whatever they ask you to do, you know? And after having done Hair, I was pretty comfortable with that because Tom O' Horgan being the freeform director that he was. And it was more like they had the living theater back then that was out of England and stuff like that. And so, like the 60s, it was all wide open. You never knew what to expect. And so there was no. There wasn't like a real format or a strict kind of, okay, do this and do this. More like, okay, let's see what he got. Hey, how about doing an improv of this? Or pretend you're a dog or. You never knew what they were going to throw.
- [23:13]
B
They could throw you in the deep end just.
- [23:14]
A
They could throw you in the deep end just to see what you're going to do. And so having done Hair made it easy for me because that's our whole rehearsal process was then, like, I said, hey, I've been naked on stage. What more can you. Yeah, could you ask me to do that? I won't try.
- [23:25]
B
So. So it's Godspell.
- [23:27]
A
In Chicago then was the Studebaker Theater. Okay. Which was on Michigan Avenue right above the Artist Cafe. It was almost like just. Just across the street, basically, from the Art Institute. Just down the block. Okay, yeah, I know where it was. In the Fine Arts Building there used to have. They used to have, like, you go there for voice lessons or, you know, you know, learn instruments in that building. But they had a nice theater. It was called the Studebaker Theater. It's not. Not the huge theater, maybe 1100 seats. So we did that for. I did that for about a year, that theater of Godspell. And it was. It was great. I mean, it was. You know, it's the gospel according to St. Matthew. I believe it's either Matthew or Mark. It's one of the M guys.
- [24:08]
B
I get lost in the hippie stuff.
- [24:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. But it was, it, it. And he was influenced a lot by, I think, the production of Hair, because I remember when I came in and they saw on my resume Huber Berger and Hair for, like, two years, because they'd done it a year and a half, then did a national tour. And I could see that John Michael Teblack was like. He respected that. Like, in other words, oh, these are the kind of people maybe he was looking for.
- [24:33]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [24:33]
A
I think I kind of felt that.
- [24:35]
B
Well, there's a free. There's a freedom in the. In the production somehow.
- [24:39]
A
Yeah, that's what I think that's what it was. I mean, I think was that thing of like, oh, you'll. You'll get it. You get where I'm trying to Do.
- [24:45]
B
So, sorry to jump back, but. But were you always okay with the, the grind? You said you like the, the virility of you was fine with it. But like, walk me through the grind of a year, year and a half production, same theater.
- [24:59]
A
Yeah.
- [24:59]
B
Eight shows a week.
- [25:00]
A
Well, it's, it becomes you're getting into the essence of what's the. And I get this, as I get asked this often, what's the difference between working in a theater and working in movie and television? And to me, that's the definitive answer is like, all right, you're doing a play, whether it runs a year. And I've done plays that have run over a year, two years. There's a routine that happens, maybe similar in a way to a band in the sense that, you know, you're going to show up at a certain time, you're going to do this thing, you're going to go up there, you're going to do it when it's over. The experience. What you get, get from that live audience is you're energized. You draw this energy from them. So when it's over, you're not like, you're like, oh, you're charged.
- [25:43]
B
Where are we going?
- [25:44]
A
Where are we going? You go to dinner, you go out, you go. And then maybe at two o' clock in the morning, you're out.
- [25:49]
B
Unless you got a man, you're in Judas. You got to go.
- [25:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, Exactly. Oh, yeah. There were instances I played that up.
- [25:55]
B
Judas groupies. Were there Judas groupies?
- [25:57]
A
There were Judas groupies. There was a group called. I'm trying to think of the name the Process in Chicago.
- [26:02]
B
There's, you know, there's a book on that.
- [26:04]
A
Okay.
- [26:04]
B
A friend of mine put out the book. It's all about the Process Church. I know all about it.
- [26:08]
A
Oh, you know about it?
- [26:08]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [26:09]
A
Okay. They were very big in Chicago at the time with the capes. Oh, yeah. And they. And, and, and they always had like, German shepherd dogs. And the girls were always.
- [26:17]
B
The girls were hot, right?
- [26:18]
A
The girls were hot. And they're with these guys.
- [26:20]
B
I mean, if you're going to start a cult. Right.
- [26:21]
A
And. Right. They had these crosses and they were hot goth girls. Yeah.
- [26:26]
B
I mean, I'm down.
- [26:27]
A
So they came to see Godspell and I'm playing Judas and Godspell at the intermission.
- [26:32]
B
This is such a good story.
- [26:32]
A
Yeah, well, during the intermission, you invite the audience on stage. You know, you give them little cups of wine. That was the thing that was like the gimmick of the intermission, you know. And so one night, some of the process people came to the show and they come on stage, they got the capes on the thing, and of course I'm Judas. So they made a beeline toward me. They're like, hey, you know, we're like, we'd like to like, meet with you sometime. I said, all right, cool. And I invited him to come to my apartment like the next day. Yeah. Because I'm thinking, because there were a couple of hot chicks, I mean, I'm thinking, this can't be bad. And I like their outfits. I swear to God, I was taken by the.
- [27:10]
B
Oh, they look amazing.
- [27:11]
A
The cape was beautiful because it was nice cape with the red lining.
- [27:15]
B
Listen, they did it, right?
- [27:16]
A
So I met with them. They came to my apartment. I had this basement apartment on Fullerton in Chicago. They came to the apartment and they give me this whole pitch about who they are, what they do, that they, they, they, they believe that the bad angels or we learn. So whatever it was, it was a. They lost me right away.
- [27:38]
B
It was like. It's just, it's sort of a long range excuse just to do whatever you want to do.
- [27:42]
A
Yeah. It was like, it was like, well, if Judas was the worst person in the world, you know, God forgave him, so how bad could we be? Maybe, I don't know.
- [27:49]
B
That's the, that's the foundation.
- [27:51]
A
So bottom line, they wanted. And what I wanted from them was a cape. That's really all I was interested in. So I said, killing me. I said, I don't know. I said, this is all interesting. I said, but can I get one of the capes? And they will say, well, no, we can't give you the cape. I said, well, maybe. How about one of the dolls or one of the girls that's in the cross is kind of cool.
- [28:09]
B
I mean, I'm just Stations or.
- [28:12]
A
Yeah, I was going for somebody accoutrements, you know, but I wasn't into their whole thing.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah.
- [28:16]
A
And, and the guy's names were all phony names like, you know, like Luther, Balthazar. Exactly. These biblical names. And I'm thinking to myself, this guy's real name is like Freddie Manovich from Irwin.
- [28:27]
B
Oh, amazing.
- [28:28]
A
So. But that was my.
- [28:29]
B
Thank you for sharing that. That is so good. Because I, I feel like I saw them back in the day, but I think I just imagine it, you know?
- [28:36]
A
No, you, you saw them. They were there, right?
- [28:39]
B
Yeah, they were just kind of around.
- [28:41]
A
They didn't last long. It was like. It lasted a year probably. You know, in Chicago politics, like a.
- [28:45]
B
Band, like the great bands really don't last very long.
- [28:50]
A
Chicago politics. Back then, I'm sure the alderman probably said, get those kids off the street. They're just, you know, blocking the sidewalk.
- [28:55]
B
In the, in the movie of your life, we know how it ends, right? You've had this incredibly long career, you know, 200 movies and television shows. I mean, it's, it's almost like there's so many rabbit holes we could jump down into amazing things you've done. But I'm struck really by those intervening years. I think 69 to 77, let's say.
- [29:17]
A
Okay.
- [29:20]
B
You'Re not a struggling actor, but you're not.
- [29:23]
A
No.
- [29:23]
B
A star.
- [29:24]
A
Not at all.
- [29:24]
B
So you don't have to go point by point, but like walk me through your mindset during those times, you know what I mean? Like what, what keeps you going is, you know, I'm gonna be a star someday. This guy believes in me. Like, what is, what is the animating feature for you?
- [29:39]
A
Star aspect of it never came into play. And also, first of all, I was with the, this, with the girl I'm with. Today we will be celebrating our 50th wedding anniversary.
- [29:48]
B
October, Amazing.
- [29:49]
A
But we had gone to high school together and we'd done plays. She was in the high school, I was in the junior college where we do these district wide musicals. And so we knew each other. As it turns out, we both get cast in Hair and that's when we first hooked up. So 1969 was like, hey, you're trying out for this. I'm. We made it to the callbacks. We both got cast. In fact, she, she got a lead role before I did.
- [30:09]
B
Your relationship goes back that.
- [30:10]
A
So our relationship goes. Starts in 1969. I mean, where was a couple then? We got married on top of the eiffel Tower in 1975 when we were on tour with the Organic Theater company out of Chicago making 100 bucks a week. We figured, hey, we're in Paris, we'll probably never get here again. Let's go to tape at Eiffel Tower and we'll just, we'll do it hippie style. We'll just do our vows. Yeah, there was, there happened to be a Chinese guy up there that we used him as our witness. Said, you come here. I didn't know, you know, we didn't know him. We said, you're the witness. Yeah, but that's not that we, that's the day we celebrate, you know, our anniversary, October 4th, 1975. So but in terms of what I was doing, I was with this. I. After Godspell, I joined this group. The Organic Theater Company out of Chicago was run by Stuart Gordon. Had some wonderful actors came out of that. Dennis Franz, Meshach Taylor, John Heard and Stuart.
- [31:01]
B
Chicago has had a. Had a good rep back then for theater, you know.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah.
- [31:05]
B
Something about even. Like. Even the people that came out that ended up in SNL and. Absolutely, there was a sort of a vibe.
- [31:11]
A
Well, there was Second City was happening. Steppenwolf got started then with all the wonderful actors that came out of that. There was the Romanes Theater, I guess what I'm saying.
- [31:18]
B
And you know it. Cause you were there. But there was a sort of a feeling in the air that Chicago had something unique to offer as a voice.
- [31:25]
A
And I think the reason was. Is because we had nothing to lose and nothing to gain.
- [31:29]
B
Well, everything was New York.
- [31:30]
A
You either go to New York, you go to. Go. Go to LA and be in TV and movies. Go to New York and be in the theater.
- [31:34]
B
What. You know, as a fellow Chicagoan, you. When you grew up there, especially then, all you heard about was New York and.
- [31:39]
A
That's right.
- [31:39]
B
It was like we didn't even.
- [31:40]
A
That's right.
- [31:41]
B
We cared about. Didn't mean anything to anybody.
- [31:44]
A
No.
- [31:44]
B
We didn't see it represented until now. It was all these Chicago Fire, Chicago this. There was no Chicago. Nothing.
- [31:50]
A
No, no. You got no.
- [31:51]
B
Other than gangster, Untouchables.
- [31:54]
A
Yeah. Al Capone and.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah, that's all we got. That's all we.
- [31:57]
A
Growing up in Cicero. That was it.
- [32:00]
B
I used to live in Cicero, too. I got. Our family got run out of there, so that's another story for another day.
- [32:05]
A
There you go. But, yeah, that's where I went to high school, junior college. They named the other street.
- [32:09]
B
Point is, I know. I know the. I know the world, you know?
- [32:13]
A
Yeah, you know the world.
- [32:14]
B
It's a very rigid mind.
- [32:16]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [32:18]
B
So again, what are you telling yourself during those years? As long as I'm working, we're good.
- [32:23]
A
Long as I'm having a good time, I'm doing what I like to be doing.
- [32:25]
B
Yeah. Love acting. Did you feel it in your bones?
- [32:28]
A
I did. I loved. I loved performing. I love the feeling of the camaraderie. I loved. It was like being similar to being. When I was in the band. Yeah. It was like, you're in the group and I had to make that choice. I mean, when the band was doing pretty well, I was making decent money as a good cover band that we Were. But it was really when that first Chicago album came out and I saw how good it was, and I thought, we'll never do that. And yet I was also doing acting on the side in junior college and doing plays. I thought, I can't do both. And then when I got cast in Hair, that sealed the deal because now I'm doing eight shows a week. I can't be in a band anymore. And that did it. That's when I said, I gotta take.
- [33:04]
B
This path in thinking I was going to talk to you today. It's. I don't know. It's. Maybe it's the songwriter in me. I was sort of. I like to work with visual images. Right. And the visual image that came to me was like, how many times you sat in a makeup chair? That. That. Not that there's anything glorious about it. But my point is, is you got to really want to be there.
- [33:25]
A
Yeah.
- [33:25]
B
At 6am no. On a cold set.
- [33:28]
A
Yeah. But there's a. There's a certain fantasy and excitement of the fact that I'm sitting in a makeup chair. I'm not. You're doing it. I'm not. I'm not.
- [33:36]
B
I'm not sure we know how the movie ends.
- [33:38]
A
That's where you.
- [33:38]
B
That's where your story is good.
- [33:39]
A
I'm not a General Motors putting a Fender on a Chevy.
- [33:42]
B
You know, But I'm just as interested in those years because, you know.
- [33:44]
A
Right. It was. It was great. It was exciting.
- [33:47]
B
It wasn't like the first time you stepped on a stage. Somebody said, hey, Hollywood kid, let's go. You know, you had to work your way.
- [33:53]
A
But it's like, I know you're a big baseball fan. I know you're a big Cub fan, as I am. There you go. There you go. So I relate a lot of it to that.
- [34:02]
B
Yeah.
- [34:03]
A
I think of it. Those are the years that I'm in. In the minor leagues, in the minors. Okay. And so I think if you question any ballplayer, they'll speak fondly of those years.
- [34:12]
B
So what did you learn in the minor leagues that you still.
- [34:15]
A
I think you learned everything that you needed to do to get to stay in the major leagues.
- [34:19]
B
Okay.
- [34:20]
A
Let's put it that way.
- [34:21]
B
How to. In other words, how to keep out of a slump.
- [34:23]
A
How to keep out of a slump. What it takes to get where you got to get.
- [34:26]
B
Yeah.
- [34:26]
A
And realize that, you know, one thing may lead to another and it's okay. And it' to be periods. Things don't happen.
- [34:31]
B
When you. When you would hear people Whisper about you. Because inevitably, when you're in the entertainment business, people around you will start to tell you what your value is. Does that make sense?
- [34:41]
A
Yeah.
- [34:42]
B
So in those. In those years before you start to really bust out of the pack, are people telling you you're just a character actor, you're not a leading guy? Like, you know, what. Were people giving feedback to you that I feel.
- [34:56]
A
I feel fortunate that I had a lot of positive reinforcement because I was getting good roles. I was. You know, in other words, I was. I would. I was. I started out as one of the tribe in Hair, and within six months, I was one of the leads in Hair. I was instantly was Judas and Godspell. Yeah. When I got to the organic theater, the very first play I did, there was. Became a lead role. So whoever the people were making that.
- [35:20]
B
But is there a doubt that creeps in, like, because, you know, it's. Sooner or later there's going to be an agent in the theater.
- [35:26]
A
Yeah.
- [35:26]
B
We had the same thing. There's somebody coming to sign you or not sign you.
- [35:29]
A
Right.
- [35:30]
B
When those opportunities didn't click, maybe in the way that you would hope to, you saw somebody else in your world get plucked out and taken to la.
- [35:36]
A
Yeah, I saw that on occasion, but it never dissuaded me in a sense because I guess I just still felt fortunate to be just doing what I'm doing.
- [35:45]
B
I've been lucky to meet you a few times in real life, and you always strike me as somebody who has a sort of an inborn optimism. Is that a fair thing to say?
- [35:52]
A
I do think so, because I hopefully think I got that from my mother. Because my mother, I think the reason she lived to be 1001 is because everything went. I mean, you know, unless it was.
- [36:02]
B
You are a cool customer.
- [36:03]
A
I mean, unless it's life or death, it's just. We'll get through this. And I like to think of that.
- [36:07]
B
You know, the first time I met you, I. Not that you would remember, but I wanted to talk to you about Bleacher Bumps because I obsessed with Bleacher Bums. For those who don't know, Bleacher Bums was a theatrical production, local, in Chicago.
- [36:22]
A
Right.
- [36:22]
B
The reason I saw it was because it was on the local PBS station.
- [36:25]
A
Right.
- [36:25]
B
Which they aired it ad nauseam.
- [36:27]
A
That was the original cast too, which.
- [36:29]
B
You know, you were.
- [36:30]
A
Yeah, well, I conceived the play that.
- [36:32]
B
I know, but I'm saying is. So I. I have a visual in my mind. 10 years old. I remember seeing you in the play.
- [36:39]
A
Right, Right.
- [36:40]
B
And and when you gained, you know, so much prominence and you maintain that prominence, I didn't necessarily put together, like, let's call it the 40 year old version of you with the, you know, the 25 year old version of you. But I think it's so cool because it's such a seminal, weird Chicago moment. But I think for the, for the indulgence of the crowd watching, give the one sentence or two sentence pitch on what Bleacher Bums was.
- [37:06]
A
Bleacher Bums was me being a Cub fan starting at like 5 years old, going to Cub games. Now Trump cut to me, like 19 years old, sitting there interested in being an actor and that aspect of my life and realizing I'm back at Wrigley Field again. I'm looking around, I'm thinking, what the hell? They got 40,000 people here to see this mediocre team play. And I said, I'm with this theater company.
- [37:31]
B
And were they mediocre in 1975?
- [37:33]
A
Yeah. And I'm in this theater company trying to get. We're trying to get 100 people into the theater with a show that's basically got good reviews. I'm thinking, what, what is it? What is it? What's that thing that. That brings the fans here no matter what? And that was the impetus for me to say there's a play here. If I could tap on to what these people are feeling about the Cubs here in a play, to the baseball.
- [37:59]
B
Fans watching, the show takes place basically in a section of the bleachers.
- [38:02]
A
Yeah. You walk into the theater and you think you're walking into Wrigley Field.
- [38:06]
B
And for historical context, back then, now, of course, you have to get your tickets in advance, but back then, you could show up the day of the game.
- [38:12]
A
Absolutely.
- [38:12]
B
It was a buck fifty.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah. I think it was a buck and a quarter. When we did the play.
- [38:16]
B
You could stand up at 9 in the morning, you get in the game, and then depending on where you sat, left field or right field at Wrigley Field, which is the Cubs home for over 100 years.
- [38:25]
A
Right.
- [38:26]
B
Left field, hated right field, right field, hated left field. So they tackle each other. And it was this, like, subculture that would go on. So as a kid, when I would go in the 70s, you would think, what is all this weirdness?
- [38:35]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [38:36]
B
It was like being surrounded by like 100 Bill Murray's.
- [38:38]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [38:39]
B
Everybody had a take and a character. It was very colorful.
- [38:42]
A
Left field were really the rowdiest. They were, they were, they were wild. Why?
- [38:45]
B
I always sat in right Wanted nothing to do with left field.
- [38:47]
A
Yeah, left field was a lot, a lot of Vietnam vets and stuff. Like these are the guys that when, when they play the Mets, they would throw snakes out onto the field because they knew that the. One of the outfielders for the Mets was afraid of snakes. Things like that. And right field was a little, little more sedate. And I, I gravitated toward these guys that were just to the right of the center section, the center that was always blacked out so that they.
- [39:09]
B
The hitting background.
- [39:10]
A
Yeah, the hitting background. And those were the older kind of hardcore guys that didn't want anything to do with left field or right field. These were the gamblers. These were guys that were glad when.
- [39:20]
B
Vilbeck used to sit. Remember, he would sit.
- [39:21]
A
Exactly. And so that's where the play takes place. Because these, these, these were this group.
- [39:26]
B
I didn't know that.
- [39:26]
A
Yeah, the play takes. Right. In fact, if you look at the set, there's this little fence right along that we're leaning against, and that's the fence that separates you from the black.
- [39:34]
B
You just illuminated something. That makes total sense to me.
- [39:37]
A
Yeah.
- [39:37]
B
Because I remember that crowd too.
- [39:39]
A
Right. And I was fascinated because I'd sit with these guys and of course the game was important, but it was only mostly important game. It was the game. In the game, a lot of bets are going on and an argument's going on over something that's got nothing to do with baseball. And I thought, this is fascinating. If I could just capture this in a play. We got something.
- [39:55]
B
You really did. It's, it's, it is. I mean, can you find it on YouTube or anything? Is it like.
- [40:00]
A
Oh, yeah, I think you can. I think the, the original production.
- [40:03]
B
If you're a baseball fan.
- [40:05]
A
Ptw. Yeah. Yeah.
- [40:06]
B
Basel fan. You should watch. It's a really particular moment.
- [40:09]
A
You'll see Dennis Franz before he was Sipowitz. And.
- [40:13]
B
So how do you. When do they start calling you? Your film debut is 1977. Medusa Challenger.
- [40:20]
A
Right.
- [40:21]
B
So how does that process start where you start getting recruited into the film?
- [40:25]
A
That was a no brainer because it was a college. It was a college thesis movie for a student from DePaul who wanted to make a movie.
- [40:33]
B
I didn't know if Hollywood had called.
- [40:34]
A
No, this was not Hollywood at all. So me and this Jack Wallace. The first, the Hollywood thing was that there was a thing called towing with this woman decided to make this movie and she hired Sue Lyon, who had been in Lolita.
- [40:45]
B
The movie Lolita. Okay, I know who you're talking about.
- [40:48]
A
And then. But she was from Chicago and she got the financing from Chicago or something was Maura Smith. And Maura got this money together and shot this, you know, basically a very low budget Hollywood type movie in Chicago. That was my first. Wow. I get to play. And I'm playing the boyfriend to Sue Lyon, you know.
- [41:04]
B
So what do you think, looking back, is what starts to pull you from. Not the chorus, but, you know, localized productions where you are doing well to where you start going into the bigger system is it just one thing really.
- [41:16]
A
Changed my life in terms of professionally. I mean, I was banging around, banging around in Chicago doing, like I said, five years. I was with the organic theater. Bleacher Bums was the last play I did with Organic because it was a fitting one. Because it was the play. I had conceived it. It was very successful. We did it in New York. It ran off Broadway.
- [41:33]
B
I didn't know that.
- [41:33]
A
Got wonderful reviews. We just weren't prepared for. Because we went in there just to do it for two weeks as a kind of like a showcase. But it got such good reviews. They said, we gotta keep it open. But we didn't have enough money to really support it to do ads and stuff. So it ran for a while, but then we had done a tour of the west coast prior. And my wife and I decided this was 1977. We said, you know what, let's go back to California. At least the weather's nice and we can do plays and we can. It wasn't like I wanted to be a movie star or TV star. I just wanted to be out of the snow. Cause everybody who knew me knew the motto was when the snow blows, Joe goes. Cause I just hated it. So we came up.
- [42:10]
B
I learned that lesson late in life, unfortunately.
- [42:12]
A
So we came to California and I just. We did theater. We did some of the organic. We did Bleacher bums.
- [42:17]
B
People did bleacher bums out here.
- [42:19]
A
We did Bleacher Bums out here. We opened it in 1980. It ran until 1990. To this day, it's one of the longest running plays in Los Angeles history.
- [42:28]
B
That's why people should really see it. It really isn't anachronistic thing, but it's really beautiful.
- [42:32]
A
It was a waiver play. We only did it like three nights a week. Like Friday or Saturday, Sunday, maybe two. Two nights a week, three performances. But it ran for 10 years because it had that. Because it's fun. You didn't have to be a cub.
- [42:42]
B
And there was a lot of. There was a little improv thing that would go on. Right. There was a. Was. There was. Was there a little wiggle room in the way that the cast would play the.
- [42:50]
A
It was pretty tightly scripted only because there's a baseball game is going on, so you have to follow every. Every hit, everything.
- [42:56]
B
So you guys did it so well, because I felt like you were almost kind of half.
- [42:59]
A
No, no, it was all. But that was the nature of our theater company. But it ran at the Century City Playhouse on Pico. The element of it's still there, but it's at Pico, right near Fox there. And ran for 10 years. So anyway, I was doing stuff like that. Doing guest shots on Archie Bunker's place.
- [43:15]
B
Or Simon Wisdom Buddies, Greatest American Hero.
- [43:18]
A
Exactly. All that.
- [43:18]
B
Simon and Simon.
- [43:19]
A
Exactly.
- [43:20]
B
It was like, wow, you were in Simon and Simon. That took me way back.
- [43:22]
A
I just got. Ironically, you mentioned that I got a residual check for a penny yesterday for Simon and Simon. One penny. I thought 01 on the check. I thought, oh, that's welcome to Hollywood. But it was during that period and I was still enjoying myself. My wife and I were living in a little one bedroom apartment, Studio City. And it was fine. I was doing what I like to do and making enough money to pay the rent. But then I get the phone call from a guy I worked with in Chicago on and off, David Mamet, who I had done a few of his things in Chicago.
- [43:51]
B
You might have heard of him.
- [43:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, might have heard of him. And he says, hey, Joe, I got this new play called Glengarry Glen Ross. I'm thinking we're going to open it in Chicago. Maybe we'll get lucky, we'll take it to New York. Well, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Next thing I know, jump cut. They're handing me a Tony Award. They're handing him a Pulitzer Prize. Needless to say, that was a life changing experience for me.
- [44:14]
B
378 performances. You won, of course, the Tony for the best featured actor that year. And the character, Richard Roma. Right. He has his own Wikipedia page. I found out. I didn't know that, but I'm saying that's a. That's a hallmark of some cultural. I think that that character that you played.
- [44:35]
A
Yeah.
- [44:36]
B
Has his own Wikipedia page. He's become such a kind of a like, I guess an avatar.
- [44:40]
A
I just have to check it out. Yeah.
- [44:43]
B
So what was it about that play that you think was the kind of the zeitgeist moment for you? Not just you personally as an actor, but sort of like right time, right Place.
- [44:51]
A
Or I guess in essence, I was ready for it in a sense that.
- [44:55]
B
Okay, stop, because I love this. This is my favorite part of interviewing someone like you. I like to slow this part down. Like, like, like watching game tape. Okay, so take me through the game tape. Right place, right time. What was it about you in that moment that you were, you were ready?
- [45:12]
A
I, I, I'll put it this way, and I could maybe sum it up into one sentence of being at the Tony Awards that night when I had won the Tony. Got up and hand me this Tony, the thing that I'd been watching people get in acting school on TV saying, look at that. Wow. The after party, somebody comes up to interview me and says, what's it feel like to win a Tony Award? And I said, my response was, it's like winning the lottery. But I've been buying tickets for the last 15 years, and that's kind of what it was. So in other words, my point being, 15 years prior, I'd been doing all that stuff, all the things you mentioned, the plays, the this, the that hair. It led to a moment where now I'm in a position again. We'll make the baseball analogy. You're banging around. You did, you did Little League. Pony League. You did the. Yeah, you played it in college. You played American Legion ball. Oh, you made it to the minors. Aaa. Oh, my God. Your first time at bat. Now you're at Wrigley Field and you're wearing a Chicago Cubs uniform. You're playing left field for the Cubs. What's that moment like? So on one hand, you're like, I can't believe it. But then on the other hand, you got to say to yourself, no, wait, I'm going to believe it. Because I put in all that time, that 15 years. So I was ready. That's what I mean by ready. In other words, the door opened. I was ready to walk in the door and say, excuse me, I'm closing the door behind me.
- [46:35]
B
I saw a quote where it said something like, you went on stage every night like a wolf or something. I can't.
- [46:41]
A
It's like a matador.
- [46:43]
B
Thank you. Yeah, it's like, it's the image of you. Like, yeah, it's my time.
- [46:47]
A
I'd put on, especially for Glengarry Glen Ross, I'd put on because luckily, Mamet was of the, of the mindset. Like, you're supposed to be a very successful, you know, salesman. I'm not gonna have you wear a cheap suit that looks expensive. I had, like, a $2,000 Versace suit I wore every night. And I'd put that here. I'm on Broadway, putting that suit on every night.
- [47:07]
B
Joey from the neighborhood.
- [47:08]
A
Joey from the neighborhood. Just like, you know, like a matador's putting on the. The suit of colors and saying, I'm going to fight the bull now.
- [47:15]
B
Yeah.
- [47:16]
A
And that was my mindset. I'm gonna hit that stage. I'm killing the bull tonight. I'm cutting off both its ears and giving him to the crowd.
- [47:24]
B
You know, moments like that don't happen often. You know, like in a long career. These beautiful peaks where it's like, there's the role, there's the playwright, obviously one of the most famous of all time. There you are. You're on Broadway, you're not in Poughkeepsie. Right. But from a. And I'm not an actor, but I'm fascinated with the art of acting. Because, like. Like, I remember reading this story once where Olivier was. Was in a. I can't think of the. It's the. Gosh, I'm terrible. It's the actor who was a big method actor around the time of the 50s, and he saw him in the corner getting himself into a froth as a method actor.
- [48:05]
A
Oh, I see.
- [48:06]
B
And so, you know, Olivier standing there, waiting. So Olivia finally went up and said, you know, they call it acting for a reason.
- [48:13]
A
Yes, exactly. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [48:16]
B
So what was it about your acting chop, 15 years in the making that you. You know what I mean? Take me inside that. Like. Like. Like if you and I were reviewing tape of you as a hitter, what kind of hit. What kind of actor hitter are you. Sorry, it's an analogy.
- [48:31]
A
Yeah.
- [48:31]
B
Clash.
- [48:32]
A
Yeah.
- [48:33]
B
Well, because you. You have such an effortless style, I think.
- [48:38]
A
Well, let's put it this way. I'm not a method guy. I'll put it down.
- [48:42]
B
Okay. Good start.
- [48:44]
A
That's why I tended to gravitate toward a lot of the British actors. I mean, I got to know Ben Kingsley pretty well because we did two movies together.
- [48:50]
B
Talk about a great actor.
- [48:51]
A
We did Bugsy and we did Searching for Bobby Fischer together. So it became pretty close. And that's what I mean. Ben is. Ben. Ben doesn't. You know what I mean? And we could be talking like we are right now, and all of a sudden they said, action. He'd become whatever he become. And I would try to become what I become. And we do everything they say. Cut. Then we go back to this. So I guess my point being, I follow that school of it.
- [49:16]
B
But is it again, For a novice. Is it an availability? Is it I can live in both worlds and not have to sort of.
- [49:26]
A
I just think it's maybe just the way you've been trained or the way you've been affected in your formative years of becoming, let's say, an actor. In other words, if you have a certain kind of training where it's been instilled in you, you should try this and do this. And maybe if you want to be a homeless person, you should go live on the streets for three weeks and even off hours, act that way. And don't let people address you by your real name. If that works for you, God bless you. I guess for me, I thought to myself, no, that's too much. I don't think I need to do that. Let's pretend. It's like when you're a kid, I'm going to pretend to be this. But as soon as your mother calls you to go for dinner, you got to stop pretending to do that and leave.
- [50:05]
B
Has anyone ever asked you or have you put yourself in a position that you felt was beyond your reach as far as a character? Meaning, like now you're a gladiator. You know what I mean? Like, or in your mind, was, was, was your character?
- [50:17]
A
Well, you do the. But you do your best you can within of who you are and what you can do.
- [50:21]
B
Sure.
- [50:21]
A
You know what I mean? So I think you reach a point where you say to yourself, look, if they think I can do it and they're sending me a check, I'll give it a shot, you know.
- [50:30]
B
Okay, so now, now, now, here come the movies. It's impossible with you. There's so much work. I mean, somebody could interview for 20 hours about the work you've done. So we'll cherry pick a little bit here. But like three amigos.
- [50:45]
A
Yeah, that was an experience.
- [50:46]
B
I mean, great movie. And I mean, Steve Martin, Chevy Chase, Martin short.
- [50:52]
A
Brought them two to get thing together. Chevy and, or not Chevy, but Steve and Martin short. That started, I think that.
- [50:59]
B
Oh, that kind of why you brought them together?
- [51:02]
A
No, no, I'm saying that movie, I think that was the thing that kind of started that relationship, them doing that movie together. Because you see them, you know, just on Saturday night.
- [51:09]
B
I mean those guys are so, I.
- [51:11]
A
Mean they're like joined at the hip and that was, I think that was the beginning of it. Yeah.
- [51:16]
B
Okay, so now you're, now you're rocking, you're. You're out making movies and you're at a steam company and. Yeah, how's that feel because you. You'd earned it, you know, Like I said, you weren't picked, like, 20. And somebody said, okay, come on.
- [51:26]
A
Right, right.
- [51:27]
B
I got you. And. And they built you up in the old Hollywood thing. You had to kind of navigate your own way out here.
- [51:32]
A
And when I talk to young students and stuff, when they ask questions like that, something. What. The point I try to make, too, is this. You pay your dues in this business one way or another. So you're either gonna pay them on the front end or you're paying them on the back end. I paid mine on the front end those 15 years that I kind of got to that point where all of a sudden, oh, so that did prepare me for those moments, things like that, like Godfather 3, where my first line I have to say to Al Pacino or Francis Coppola standing there thinking, oh, my God, this is the Godfather, you know? But yet some people right out of the box is like, they get some major thing, and now they're like, boom. They're catapulted to stardom. It's not like they're gonna avoid paying their dues now. They gotta pay those dues on screen, on camera, in front of everybody. And it's harder, I think, because now you gotta back it up.
- [52:17]
B
I know. You know, these conversations, invariably a parent will pull you aside and said, my kid wants to be a blank. Actor, musician. And I always find myself saying a variation of, be careful what you wish for. Yeah, that's because it's not an easy life. And especially to a parent, I'll say, if your kid's got it, talent can't be stopped.
- [52:38]
A
That's right.
- [52:39]
B
But it ain't easy. And even when you make it, it ain't easy. It doesn't suddenly become a boulevard of roses. It gets complicated in ways that's almost impossible, absolute.
- [52:49]
A
And you have to be careful that they're not trying to live vicariously through their sick. Like, wanting them to do it because they never got that shot or wanted to do it. And so they're trying to instill it in them. Yeah, you know, I obviously had the opposite. That my parents didn't even know what the hell I was doing.
- [53:03]
B
I was gonna say, I have to ask, because I love, love, love old Hollywood. And you were in a movie with Don Amici.
- [53:11]
A
Oh, yeah. God loved him.
- [53:13]
B
You know who, when he in his youth, was like, a romantic, but when he had this kind of interesting comeback in the 80s, he was kind of cast as almost like George Burns or something like this kind of anachronistic character in a modern world.
- [53:26]
A
Well, it was a total fluke that he came back. I mean, it was Trading Places. Oh, right, right. What had happened is, of course, I got this whole story from Don, you know, himself. He made his last movie, like, in the 60s, and it was like Herbie and the Love Bug or something. And then he started to realize, you know what? I think this is it. And he was fine with it.
- [53:46]
B
It.
- [53:46]
A
He. You know, he's got a beautiful estate out in Encino and he liked to go out to dinner at night. And that was it. He was done. What had happened was that movie was the two old men in the movie that make the bet in Trading Places was supposed to be Raymond.
- [54:06]
B
Okay.
- [54:06]
A
And I forget the other actor who actually did it, but Raymond. And they were getting ready to shoot the film. They purposely put all.
- [54:16]
B
Montgomery Clift. I just remembered the name of that Montgomery.
- [54:18]
A
Cliff. Exactly right. Yeah. I had to get the nervous guy. Exactly right. But they're getting ready to shoot. They're gonna shoot on Monday. And they put the old. The two old guys. It was Ralph Bellamy, I think it was. Okay, Ralph Bellamy and Ray Milan, they're gonna shoot all their stuff together in, like, one week. Because they were old, they figured we'd just shoot them out so we don't have to encumber them over the course. But Ray Millan hadn't done his physical, which the insurance company insists you get when you make a movie because they have to bond the movie. It was Friday. They're gonna start shooting on Monday. Multi million dollar picture with, you know, Eddie Murphy.
- [54:53]
B
They just grabbed Don out of the.
- [54:54]
A
So, no, no, what had happened is they called Ray's agent and says, hey, you know, you gotta get him to the doctor to get the physical. You know, and a movie physical is like, they just wanna make sure you live long enough to make the movie. They really don't care how healthy you are. They really don't like how long in the movie. A week? Yeah, we'll make a week. Well, the agent says, oh, okay, I'll make sure he goes to the doctor. This was like, one of the first times in Hollywood history where the doctor called the producers and said, when does he start Monday? I don't know. I don't think so. And they basically said, they can't. The doctor would not sign him off. They said, no, this guy's. Ray Milan was in tough shape. And the agent was trying to get him one more job. Figured two weeks, he'll make it Make a little money. So now they're stuck and they're talking. We can't. If we don't shoot on Monday, the sets, we're done. And the producer said, you know, I happen. And I heard this from the producer, because I got from both sides. The producer said, I happen to see Don Amici sometimes because he was living in Santa Monica at the time. I happen to see him walking on the beach on Sundays, you know, and he looks pretty good. Looks in good shape. And he said, we'll track him down, see if we find an 8. Cut to the chase. They tracked him down. They hire him. He does the movie that starts his career again. The next movie he does is the one Cocoon, and he wins the Oscar, which. And when he gave his speech, I remember he gave the speech in it somewhat in Italian, and explained to me how exciting it was, because when he was a big star, he was the second star, because the big star with the studio was Tyrone Power. He did all the A movies. Don did all the. That leads into the movie.
- [56:26]
B
He's a romantic lead.
- [56:27]
A
Romantic lead, but you don't win Oscars for romantic leads, you know, Cary Grant never won an Oscar, you know. So anyway, that was a big, big deal for Don. But what's funny is Don, the producer, told me the story. That's how we got Don Amici. Don's version of it ended with, well, you know, Joe. They called me in and they offered me the part, but I turned him down. I said, really? He goes, yes. They offered me shit money. He goes, and I always swore I'm never going to come back to the business, you know, in a bowing position. He says, so I went out to dinner that night, and at the restaurant, the mayor D. Brought the phone to the table and said, Mr. Amici's a call for you. And it was them saying, well, we've met your price. And that's how he did the Trading Places.
- [57:07]
B
Oh, what a beautiful story. Yeah, well, I'd be remiss. I mean, we talked about it briefly, but Godfather 3, it's shocking how certain things in our culture become institutionalized. They almost grow beyond their. So what's it like to be. And you're. You're a member of a few franchises. We'll get to the other ones in a second. But the Godfather, it's like. Let's call it the Family. You're part of the Godfather metaverse.
- [57:31]
A
Yeah.
- [57:33]
B
How does that feel? Because it seems to me, it's like. It's the way I look back in my life. Where I think, like, I did that. Like, it's.
- [57:40]
A
Yeah.
- [57:40]
B
Like it's something you hang your hat on.
- [57:42]
A
My friend Vinnie guess. The pharaoh who's. Who's not Irish, but you could tell by the name that he was my cousin. He made. He made the one quote that sums it up. When he found out I'd gotten a role, he says, joey, you're gonna be in the Italian Star Wars. And. Yeah, I guess that's right.
- [58:00]
B
Now, that is some Chicago right there.
- [58:02]
A
Yeah. So that kind of summed it up.
- [58:05]
B
The Italian star.
- [58:06]
A
Well, sure, because you think about it. Okay, I was gonna. Because. Yeah, because it would have been 18 years, I think, after the second one had come out. And now they're coming out with this new movie, and I find out I'm being considered for a role in Godfather that wanted to, you know.
- [58:20]
B
What do you tell your wife that day?
- [58:21]
A
Like, yeah, well, what's really interesting is how I found out I had the role, because I knew I was up for the role. There's a pizza place. It was. I'm spacing on the name, but it was. It was Studio City. I go to this pizza place to pick up some. Some dinner for my wife and I that night, and I walk in, and the owner of the place looks at me, goes, joe Montaigne, you son of a bitch, you're gonna be in the Godfather movie. I said, what? You're gonna be in a Godfather movie. Don't be goofing around with me. And I knew I was up for this role.
- [58:55]
B
Oh, my God.
- [58:56]
A
But that's all I knew.
- [58:57]
B
The pizza guy, nephew.
- [58:57]
A
The pizza guy. I go, what are you talking about? He goes, my nephew. He called me on the phone just a little while ago because he works in an office, in a casting office in New York. He said, they put the pictures up under the wall. They got a picture of Al Pacino. They got a picture of the Diana Keaton. They got a picture. They put up a picture of you under the wall. And I knew that casting. That's how they do it, when they put pictures up to kind of. So you can all see, here's our cast. I said, well, I said, I know I'm being considered. I rush back to the house with the linguini, and I call my agent. It was a Friday night. They call him at home. I said, the pizza guy just told me I'm in. The guest.
- [59:34]
B
The pizza guy.
- [59:35]
A
He goes. He goes, oh, I was gonna call you. I just got the call saying that.
- [59:39]
B
Wow.
- [59:40]
A
And so literally, he told me so I found out he knew before I did.
- [59:44]
B
Okay, so you just found out you're gonna be in the Godfather? Yeah.
- [59:50]
A
It'S the.
- [59:50]
B
God.
- [59:50]
A
Hey, I'm part of that trilogy, you know.
- [59:52]
B
I mean, I don't think as an Italian American. I mean, come on.
- [59:55]
A
It was the Italian Star Wars. I mean, come on. I. I was like, I mean, you.
- [59:59]
B
Go back to the neighborhood, it's got.
- [60:00]
A
To be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have to buy a drink or for. For a long time after that. But, yeah, it was. It was monumental. And just to know, like, oh, and by the way, you're going to fly to Europe and you're going to shoot most of it in Rome, you know, Chinny Chita Studio, where Fellini did his movies. It was like, what. What more could be better about, you know? So that was. Yeah, that was the whole experience unto itself.
- [60:27]
B
I'm not so much interested in, like, let's call it the boring part of being typecast. And it's less so these days. But you grew up in a world where it's like, okay, you become the Italian guy, right? Somebody's like, I need an Italian guy. And then you look at four pictures and it's like, oh, I know him, right? Are you conscious of that at the time or again, it's just, I'm so happy to be working. I don't care.
- [60:52]
A
My attitude was this, if it's a good role, what do I care? The point is, I'm never gonna play a Swedish sea captain. You know, I wouldn't cast myself.
- [61:00]
B
Could you? That's the question.
- [61:02]
A
I might, but then why would I? I mean, the point is, you know, maybe get somebody who's a little closer to the. To that thing. So, no, I never. And also, I feel lucky enough, fortunate enough that it did enough things that weren't necessarily.
- [61:14]
B
Did anybody ever try to get you to kind of deaccent yourself, you know?
- [61:19]
A
No.
- [61:19]
B
You speak. You speak in the world you grew up in.
- [61:22]
A
Not really, because also, I didn't like a note because you take the movie, like, Searching for Bobby F. I'm playing, you know, that father, in reality is Jewish. You know, the Wait. Skin family. And I'm playing that father.
- [61:33]
B
You just became Jewish right in front of me.
- [61:34]
A
Yeah, well, there you go. But so to me, the ethnicity that, like I said, I'm probably never going to play, you know, yump and hey, I'm from Wisconsin, you know, that's not going to happen. I get that. But long as those are good roles and roles That I can grab it or I can embrace and say to myself, I can do that. Yeah. And then there were times, believe me, when I was special, before things started going well for me and I was training off for bit parts, I would read them, and it would be a role, like in a sitcom, where it was like, hey, oh, Jimmy, how you doing? Hey, Jimmy. Jimmy. And I'd look, as I walked in the audition a couple times, I know I blew the audition because I'd look at the casting people. I say, okay, what level of, like, you know, of Rocky talented do you want me to be? They look at me with this thing like. And I think, older, not amused. Yeah, they don't want to be told that.
- [62:21]
B
Yeah.
- [62:22]
A
But I knew that's exactly what they wanted. They wanted, like, wanted John Travolta in the. You know, the. The TV show. And. But it was okay. I wasn't a cofender because I thought that's. That's. That's Hollywood. That's the way it goes.
- [62:35]
B
Okay. Gotta be a little pressure playing Dean Martin at some point. Is that from an acting point of view, are you conscious of doing a. A really good impression or you're trying to figure out your own version of Dean Martin?
- [62:50]
A
It's a little of both. The point is, the main thing was I was scared to death to do it. But then I was scared to death not to do it because of being offered it. I thought, oh, God, it's my chance to play a guy I idolized. But I thought, do I have it in me? Can I fool people for two hours?
- [63:05]
B
What a great comedian he was.
- [63:07]
A
His timing, the whole thing and the look. And so what I started to work on was I did all the research I could do. I read autobiographies of him, listened to tapes, watch.
- [63:16]
B
Did you talk to family members?
- [63:18]
A
Well, I reached out to Dena Martin, his daughter, because what had happened was it had gotten around that Frank Sinatra's daughter Tina had wanted to co produce the movie with hbo. And they didn't want her to, because, first of all, they didn't necessarily want anybody in the family saying, well, now you can't say that. You can't do that. So she was. From what I'd heard, she was a little bitter about that. So she was, like, calling all members of the other families, like Dean's family, saying, we gotta boycott this movie or we gotta da, da, da, da. And I felt so the opposite about the script and about how these men were being portrayed. I knew somebody who knew Dina. I said, could you Get a message to her and let her know that Joe Montagna was playing her father, would invite her to the set if she wants to come, and I'll let her read the script just to show her what respect I have for him. And that started the relationship. But one thing that stuck with me and was almost in my key to playing him was I thought for two hours, I have to suspend people's belief that I'm not Joe and that I'm Dean Martin. So how do you do that? You know? But there are, you know, millions of biopics. You do what you can do. But I thought the sound. What's that sound? What does he sound like? Because if I can get a little bit of the sound. And then I started to think, what does he sound like to me? And then as a kid, I remember the Sugar Crisp commercials with the Sugar Bear. And the Sugar Bear would talk like this. Oh, can't get enough of those Sugar Crisp, Sugar Bear hair. And I thought to myself, that's kind of the cadence that Dean Martin would talk about when he talked like the Sugar Bear. So when I. So then I started thinking, whenever I had a line like, oh, all these people get in my room, it was the Sugar Bear talk. Yeah. And that to me, once I had that in my head, I thought, long as I'm thinking of Sugar Bear, I'm kind of in the ballpark.
- [65:03]
B
Does the process of moviemaking, because you've been in so many movies and. And I've been on a few sets in my life, not a ton. It's such a glacial slow process.
- [65:15]
A
Yeah.
- [65:15]
B
I mean, it's mind numbingly slow. Especially the higher the production, the slower it goes.
- [65:21]
A
Absolutely. Without question.
- [65:23]
B
Does it make you cynical about the art? Because, yes, you have. The stage is very big movies, big stage.
- [65:31]
A
Right.
- [65:32]
B
But does it make you cynical sitting there all those hours and. Because again, you came out of theater where it's like that adrenaline shot every night.
- [65:39]
A
Well, first you have to. Like I say, you have to. Once you accept the fact that theater is theater and film and television is that.
- [65:45]
B
Yeah.
- [65:45]
A
It's two separate endings.
- [65:46]
B
How do you modulate your kind of emotions on in it?
- [65:51]
A
I think it helps having the experience. In other words, the more you do it, the more you adapt to it. You know what I mean? Just. I think for singers, I would think maybe the best way to equate it was the. When you have to sing in front of how many thousands of people live, or you go into recording studio and you have to make the record. Yeah. You Know, it's that different zone. It's a whole different zone. One you're trying to reach thousands of people. Hit that guy in the back row. The other one, you're putting it all into that mic. I'm putting it all into a lens.
- [66:19]
B
That's this especially acting to a camera is such a different art than.
- [66:24]
A
Yeah, and it's fatiguing. Like we said earlier about when you finish a performance, how you're energized and stuff. At the end of a movie day or TV day, you're like, sometimes you're a little beat up because you've been up and down and up and down. You sat for an hour, you're up, you did five minutes, you're on fire. Now you're down. Now you've been up since 5 o' clock in the morning. So rather than going out to dinner, you're going, I gotta get up, it's five o' clock for tomorrow.
- [66:46]
B
From a directing standpoint, who reached you the most? If that makes any sense? Like, you're sitting there and they're telling you and you're thinking, like, wow, this is what real direction feels like.
- [66:58]
A
I've been blessed with a lot of great directors. I mean, starting with Coppola, then two pitches for Woody Allen, did two pitches for Barry Levinson. Mamet was wonderful to work with. I've worked. I've been blessed to work with a lot of wonderful people. Barry Levinson comes to mind only because he had a background in improv and stuff. He was out of San Francisco and worked with an improv group, so he.
- [67:22]
B
Kind of knew how to.
- [67:23]
A
So, yeah. So Barry would be the kind of thing you'd be working. Like when I did the movie Bugsy, the script I thought was brilliant. It was a wonderful script. And so there was plenty to do within the confines of the script.
- [67:34]
B
And you played. Wait, George Raft?
- [67:35]
A
I played George Raft, yeah.
- [67:37]
B
Who was a notorious Lothario.
- [67:40]
A
Yes, exactly, exactly. And then. But I also did a film of Barry's called Liberty Heights, which is somewhat autobiographical. It's part of that trilogy of movies he did with Diner.
- [67:50]
B
Okay, I remember, yeah.
- [67:51]
A
And so the last one was Liberty Heights. And so within the framework of that script, which, again, was a brilliant script, but there would be moments when something would come to mind and I would try something, like an ad lib or something. I remember there was one thing was a phone call, because it takes place. It's a period piece, it kind of takes place in the 50s. And my son, we're a Jewish family, and My son is out on Halloween and he's dressed as Hitler and it's like as for Halloween and my wife is complaining to me, he's out there playing Hitler. So I remember I did a scene where I had scripted was like, I get him. I said I'm supposed to just say get so and so. I can't what the character's name is. Get him, put him on the phone. I need to talk to him because he's at a Halloween party. But I remember I ad libbed at the time. I said, hey, put the Fuhrer on the phone, will ya? Just that. But it was those moments that would like Barry would say, go with it. In other words, he would let me then take it from there and ad lib it. So if you can find that kind of a director. And most of them would be, would, would do that because it's a collaborative thing.
- [68:52]
B
Yeah.
- [68:52]
A
You know, oh, let's, let's see what you got. And because even Woody would let you do that, you'd go with it. But if you, if you went too far astray and maybe you just. They say, you know, I want you to go back to the words. You know what I mean? So it just depends. All direct. But it is a director's medium. And so you kind of got take, take.
- [69:10]
B
Who's an, who's an actor that you've stood next to and worked next to that you think like, wow, like your chops blow me away. Like, who's a, who's an actor's actor for you?
- [69:20]
A
Well, so many of them I have been, I've been a lot lucky. Pacino's one. Because Pacino is one of those guys that is not afraid to try something different, you know, so in here, in Godfather 3, he's playing a guy that was, was supposed to be older at that time, older than he really was. And that's not that easy.
- [69:36]
B
But what is it about his acting that you kind of. Is it, is it a kineticism or like.
- [69:42]
A
I just think that because he was. I think part of it is the sharing. In other words, the really good actors engage you. In other words, they pull it from you. They pull it from you and they engage you. It's not like it's not them giving a performance and that you're on your own.
- [69:58]
B
Yeah.
- [69:58]
A
They realize that this is a collaborative thing, that you're having a discussion here.
- [70:02]
B
You'd understand this in musical terms. Sometimes when you're jamming, you feel like they're playing the song but nobody's listening.
- [70:09]
A
Right.
- [70:10]
B
And but when people start listening and you play something and you hear other people follow in.
- [70:15]
A
Right, exactly.
- [70:16]
B
It creates this other harmonic. That's really rich.
- [70:18]
A
Yeah, that's why. That's why bands were successful. They've been together a long time. You know, there's a listening, and it makes sense that they get better.
- [70:26]
B
It's sensitive.
- [70:27]
A
You know, I've been on this TV show, Criminal Minds now for 15 years. We're such a tight group because we know each other's nuances and things like that, and that's helpful.
- [70:37]
B
So another franchise, but we're technically alumnus of is simpsons.
- [70:42]
A
Yes.
- [70:43]
B
I got to be on one simpsons. The famous homer palooza episode.
- [70:48]
A
Yes.
- [70:50]
B
Do you have that same experience where somehow when you're in the Simpsons thing, it turns into this other thing? You become part of this other story that has nothing to do with anything other than the Simpsons? Have you found that Simpsons fans are obsessive in a very particular way? And you'd be surprised who's a simpsons fan.
- [71:06]
A
Oh, I know. Yeah. And I've been. I've been doing that role now for 34 years. And I went in thinking I was gonna do a one shot deal. Cause godfather had just opened. I'm playing Joey zaza as the godfather, and I get this script to play this character, Fat Tony. And the simpsons is a mob guy. And I went, oh, okay, I get it. They want the same guy doing godfather.
- [71:24]
B
Typecast. Yeah.
- [71:25]
A
So I typecast me, but it'll be fun. And I did it thinking that'll be it.
- [71:28]
B
And they're great people.
- [71:29]
A
Oh, great people. Little did I know, they kept calling saying, you know, we like to. You want to come to another one? Yeah, I'll do. I've been doing them now for 34 years. And it's wonderful because it gives you a chance to. First of all, it's a reason it's run that long because they've kept the quality of it. They're smart enough to keep the writing still clever and interesting. But you write the fan base. What's interesting is when you travel the world. Because I was doing a miniseries in Australia and I get there, I thought it was a pretty big deal that they're doing this miniseries in Australia. And so we sit down and I'm sitting with the guy to interview me. Like the first two questions were. So you're here to do this great. Next thing you know, tell us about Fatoni and. And the next. The whole interview is about the Simpsons. And I'm thinking, I, I so now finally had to say I. I gather the Simpsons is big out here. Oh, yes, the Simpsons.
- [72:18]
B
Very big. Yeah. I told someone in my world that I was going to be talking to you, and the next day some business. Da, da, da. Business, business, business at the end says, and I'm very jealous you're going to be talking to Fat Tony tomorrow.
- [72:29]
A
Oh, no. Yeah, that's.
- [72:30]
B
That's how, you know, you've kind of crossed the cultural rubicon.
- [72:34]
A
You know, I get. We. We all get fan mail. I get as much fan mail for Fat Tony as I do for David Rossi for Criminal Minds. And as many want that picture signed of Fat Tony.
- [72:45]
B
That's what I love about America. It's like the high and the low. I mean, Tony Award winning actor. You've been in, you know, you've been in some of the biggest movies of all time. And so, by the way, can we talk about Fat Tony?
- [72:56]
A
No, I remember. And you know, Simpsons always have a fairly big elaborate party at the end of their season because usually the end of a filming season or recording coincides with them releasing the first episode on.
- [73:07]
B
Okay.
- [73:08]
A
Because. Because they have such a.
- [73:09]
B
It's kind of a launch, but also launch rap.
- [73:11]
A
So they have these massive parties. They have them now, but Universal, because they have Simpsons World up there.
- [73:15]
B
Yeah.
- [73:16]
A
They even have a Fat Tony dish in the Italian restaurant up there and up there. But I don't even know where I was gonna go with this thing. We're just talking, but yeah.
- [73:26]
B
Simpsons World.
- [73:27]
A
Yeah.
- [73:28]
B
Rap party.
- [73:29]
A
Yeah.
- [73:31]
B
It's okay.
- [73:32]
A
Oh, I know what it was. So one day, one and going to one of the parties. Sometimes fans know they. Some of them can get into the party because they have such a connection, but some are just waiting outside because they know they're going to meet the people who were in the Simpsons. I remember one guy was there waiting, and he obviously was waiting for me because he sees me. Joe, Joe, Joe. Like, I'm trying to be cordial with the fans, you know, they pay my way, you know, I said, oh, hi, how are you? He goes, I want to show you something. And he lifts up his arm. Fat Tony, he's got the tattoo of him, you know, like. And you don't even know what to say. Like, all I could think of is, I hope he doesn't follow me home, you know, but like, oh, great. Congratulations.
- [74:08]
B
You know, one thing we also share, and it's a bit serious, but I want to talk about because I think these things are important to talk about. So your daughter has autism. Very traumatic birth. I read a long Thing on it. I have a brother was born with autistic. Not always been a bit. But I wanted to talk about that a bit because, you know, it's fun to talk about all these great things that we do.
- [74:35]
A
Right.
- [74:36]
B
But I think it's also important that people understand that life goes on and you have these challenges. And I think you being so open about it, about your family situation with your daughter, I think is very admirable.
- [74:48]
A
So.
- [74:48]
B
So if you want to talk about that. I don't kind of know how to. No, no, no.
- [74:51]
A
I would just say this first of all, when it's thrust upon you. Like when my daughter was born, she was born. In fact, I was shooting a Godfather when we.
- [74:59]
B
And sorry, but during those times, there wasn't as much understanding as there is now.
- [75:05]
A
No, no. She was born in 1987 and it was.
- [75:09]
B
That's why I would tell people and they'd say, I don't even know what that is.
- [75:11]
A
Yeah, it was like one in couple thousand births were considered on the spectrum. But while we were in New York, she was a little over two years old at the time. Then it started to become apparent something's off here, something a little different here.
- [75:22]
B
And that's when she was a very traumatic birth, too.
- [75:24]
A
Very traumatic. She was born at £1, 13 ounces.
- [75:27]
B
I read that. And it's like, you know, when you look and you go, is that a typo?
- [75:30]
A
No. She was one of the smallest babies born in California that year. And they told us. And she's lucky she survived because many of them don't. But she's tough. To this day, she's the healthiest kid person in her family. But so when she was diagnosed, we were in New York, and you're kind of like, oh, God, now what? What do we do? You know? And then you have to make. It's not that you make a choice.
- [75:51]
B
But you're also having this big career moment. So it's a lot of emotions.
- [75:55]
A
I was shooting the movie Alice at the same time I was shooting the Woody Allen Picture and Godfather 3 back to back in New York. We were there for that whole year. In fact, my second daughter was born while we were there. My daughter Gia was born while we were in New York. So I got a new baby born. This daughter's being. Has now been diagnosed with autism. You know. Wow. Okay. So my plate's very full in this direction, and I got a little troubling things going on here. But so what? You know, you make that decision. So now what? Now what do you do. You do all the research, this, that. But what really changed things for me, or helped was, no, we finished New York, we get back to la. A few months pass, we're still doing all this research. What can we do? Okay, what therapies are out there? What are the organizations we should be part of of? Like, now they're starting to do the press for Godfather 3. They want to do the preliminary press. And it was like. It was either Time magazine, it was a big publication, either Time or People, they wanted to interview me because I was the villain now of the new movie. And of course, they do their research. And even though it wasn't common knowledge, because there was no reason for it to be, they had found out that my daughter is on the spectrum. Because a group like somebody, like Time magazine will find that out. They'll do enough research and talk to somebody, nurse somewhere, somebody say something. So in the interview, it was on the phone they sent to me. We've come to our attention that you have a daughter with autism. Are you comfortable with talking about that? And it hit me, like, first of all, like, how did they know that? And then I thought, what's my response going to be? And instantly I thought to myself, if I say I don't want to talk about it, I'm negating her existence. That's the way I felt.
- [77:36]
B
Felt, yeah.
- [77:36]
A
And I thought, I don't want to negate her existence. They're right. I do have a daughter who's been diagnosed with autism. Do I want to talk about it? Okay, yeah, all right, I'll talk about it. So we didn't talk about in depth, but I just explained kind of this is what happened.
- [77:51]
B
You opened that door. Opened the door, yeah.
- [77:54]
A
So I figured. And I basically. I remember telling my wife that I says, you know what? This probably is going to come out. And it did. They mentioned it, but they're not elaborate, but they just says, Joe daughter found out while he was making the movie his daughter had autism. And da, da, da, da. I got a letter sent to my agent later on after that thing came out from a woman who. It was a beautiful letter. Because one of the things I did say describing my daughter's autism, I said, yeah, I said, because they asked me, is it difficult? Is it a difficult thing to go? Of course, the difficulties. I said, one of the most difficult things is you be in a grocery store with your child. And she, at that time, at that age, two and a half, three years old, she would, if she'd see something like a face or something. She'd get hysterical and start screaming. And so I said, so the hardest thing is to be in a grocery store and your daughter starts screaming and the other people are looking at you like you're a bad parent. And you want to just scream at them like, hey, she has autism. You can do it. Yeah, yeah. I said, that's where it's difficult sometimes. I said, but you realize that goes with. So this woman writes me this beautiful letter saying how so much she appreciated that me, this actor who's been in this huge movie has gone through this, that she was going through that same thing.
- [79:10]
B
That's why I like talking about these things, because it's not to normalize them. It's just part of life.
- [79:14]
A
Right. And from that moment on, once I read that letter from her, I thought to myself, well, that's it. I'm never gonna hide Mia under a blanket and say, oh, yeah, well, let's not talk about things. And some people do, and that's their choice, you know, they don't want to get into it.
- [79:26]
B
So what's Mia doing today? Is she working?
- [79:29]
A
Mia, she has done different things 16 years. You may know, my wife had a restaurant called Taste Chicago. We had a Chicago themed restaurant in Burbank.
- [79:36]
B
I think I've even been there.
- [79:37]
A
Yeah.
- [79:38]
B
Back in my pre vegan taste.
- [79:40]
A
Sure. And my daughter Mia would. Because she's savant in some areas, like. In some areas, like, I mean, my.
- [79:46]
B
Brother'S the same way. In some ways, they'll blow you away. And you think like, it's almost Rain man esque.
- [79:51]
A
Oh, yeah. She's like. She's like an encyclopedia. She could give you a date if I told her. Right. If I called her right now and asked her what your birthday is, she would tell me exactly your birthday. And if I pressed her, she'd tell me what day of the week you were born on. But she knows your birthday. Birthday. Yeah, only because she knows I was coming here today. So she knows. So things like that, you know, so she. She's. Yeah, it manifests itself in all kinds of. Yeah.
- [80:14]
B
That's what's so such such a curious thing about autism. It is. It. It's different for every person.
- [80:19]
A
Right.
- [80:21]
B
And there's no sort of known this is the way that you make it. No, like quote unquote, better. It's more about how to manage and navigate know. And it's a very intense sort of experience for a family.
- [80:31]
A
Right.
- [80:32]
B
And we went through it in the 70s, same type of thing. Nobody really know what it was or how to diagnose it.
- [80:38]
A
Right. And now it's much.
- [80:40]
B
At this point, I don't even know if he's ever been officially diagnosed. But now people would say, on the spectrum. Yeah, on this type of thing.
- [80:45]
A
On the spectrum. And it manifests itself in many different ways. And some people are brilliant because they're able to. To capitalize on the beneficial aspects of it.
- [80:51]
B
Yeah.
- [80:53]
A
And some people aren't.
- [80:55]
B
Well, that's why I think so many artists are bipolar is. I think their brain doesn't function properly. So they develop. One side of their brain over develops.
- [81:02]
A
Right, right.
- [81:03]
B
You know, they have. In order to survive, they develop imagination or something.
- [81:07]
A
Right.
- [81:08]
B
So they. That's why they're so crazy. But they're good for us.
- [81:10]
A
Yeah.
- [81:11]
B
So just to finish up, thank you again for being here.
- [81:14]
A
Yeah.
- [81:14]
B
Can we talk about this, the tequila?
- [81:16]
A
Oh, this? Yeah.
- [81:17]
B
Well, this is like. Because you had. You said there was a good story there.
- [81:19]
A
Well, what it is, is, you know, look, as I said, you throw a rock in the air, it's going to land on a celebrity who's pushing a boost. You know, this is Senor Rio Tequila. And what had happened is there was a tv. Do you remember a TV show called the Booze Traveler? It was on the Cooking channel or Tate or I do know, Travel Channel. Anyways, guy Jack Maxwell did it and he traveled around the world, like, here we are in Portugal where they make port. And, you know, it was one of this. It was an interesting show because.
- [81:40]
B
Yeah.
- [81:40]
A
So anyway, he got to know this woman named Debbie Medina, who owned this company with her husband called Senor Rio. And her story was she was. As a child, her father, who was of Mexican descent, left the family. She never knew him. From the time she was a baby, he was gone. And then when she turned, like near 30 or something, she gets a phone call from the father in Mexico. I want to see you. And her attitude was, go F yourself. Where you been all my life? Her fiance at the time, husband, said, let's go. I'll go with you. Get a chance to meet your birth father. Cut down. They go down to Mexico. He's a simple man. Turns out they spend it. They get his side of the story. Okay, but they're drinking tequila out of, like a Coke bottle.
- [82:22]
B
And that's it.
- [82:23]
A
And that's it. And it's fantastic. And finally, in the morning, they're not drunk, they're not hungover. And he's explaining, well, there's no additives, there's no preservatives. This been in his family for three generations.
- [82:32]
B
Right, right.
- [82:33]
A
And so they decide her and the husband then got married. Let's start a business. And they did for 15 years. They had this business built. They were selling out a trunk of their cars and stuff. Stuff. And doing well. And then what ultimately happens, unfortunately, her husband dies suddenly. And. And he was starker. I mean, it was, you know, it was totally unexpected. So now this woman is running this tequila company all by herself. And.
- [82:58]
B
And.
- [82:58]
A
And she named it after her father, Rodrigo. So that's why I call Senor Rio. And she. She tells Jack. She runs into my friend Jack who had the TV show saying, do you know of any celebrity that maybe would want to. In exchange for part of the company? Together we try to do. And what she does is she gives a dollar this time. She had a daughter who had grown up, had twins, and the twins are special needs. They have this. It's called angel syndrome or something like that. They're in wheelchairs and they're fairly special needs. Sure. So she's always given a dollar from every bottle she sells to this foundation for children. Yeah. And of course, my thing with my daughter, I thought, well, hey, why, you know, hey, this is not my day. It's not my day job. Yeah. But I said, at least you're doing something. And. And I like a little sip of tequila every once in a while. Let's give it a shot. And. And I. So I've loved the. The. The connection with her last thing. Yeah.
- [83:55]
B
Is it true you collect vintage guitars?
- [83:59]
A
I. I only have a few.
- [84:00]
B
Well, it's. It's on the Internet. It's your big collector.
- [84:03]
A
I'm not a big collector. I'm lucky that I have a good friend who was worked. I played offender guitar in the band for the most part. And then I went over to which I'm trying to think with the one. The one Paul McCartney played. The Epiphone. Epiphone. I think it was Epiphone. Anyway, but that was only like the last year of the band. But yeah, I was into Fender guitars, and then it turned out Fender, the company, Fender, asked me to do a charity thing out in Palm Springs about 15 years ago because they knew I had been in a band. I said, really? I haven't picked up a bass. And I said, I sold my bass. In fact, I sold my bass to Mitchell Yoda, who was in the Rotary Connection back in the days with Minnie Riperton. And they said, oh, no, we'll give you a guitar. Oh, you'll give me a bass? And I Told him what kind of bass I'm in.
- [84:52]
B
Show me where to stand, you know.
- [84:53]
A
Where do I stand? You know? So I did it. I went. They gave me a bass. They gave me a little amp, one of those bullnose kind of amps. And that kind of started it. So then I built up my relationship with. With this guy Dell from Fender, and he gave me.
- [85:05]
B
I just. I had this vision of you with a vault of guitars.
- [85:08]
A
No, I got. But I got one. They came out with then Gibson. Yeah, then Gibson came out with like a. A. It's kind of a. You probably know it. It's a guitar that's kind of an homage to the 60s. It's got all kinds of piece symbols on it and stuff. It's kind of a sweet. It's. It's like a. It's like a Les Paul type guitar, but it's got. And so they gave me one of those. So I got one of those. And I got. You know.
- [85:29]
B
So I was just being a guitar.
- [85:31]
A
Nerd to see if. No, I was a mediocre bass player anyway. I mean, I. I was the lead singer. And so by fingers.
- [85:40]
B
Fingers.
- [85:41]
A
Fingers. On occasion. You mean to. To pick.
- [85:44]
B
Back in the day.
- [85:45]
A
I'm back in the day. But I had one of those really big picks though, too. You know, it depend. Depending on how loud I wanted to be, you know.
- [85:51]
B
You know how. You know how musicians are. You know, it's like the snobs. You got to play with your fingers.
- [85:55]
A
You know, back then, there wasn't much snobbery going on in the 60s.
- [85:58]
B
I love it.
- [85:59]
A
Thank you, Jim. I want to just say one. One last thing, though. Sure. This only because my assistant wrote this book called Long Branch.
- [86:04]
B
Okay.
- [86:05]
A
Which I think is brilliant. I'm happy to promote this Long Branch. We're trying to turn it into a series which we hope to be able to do. I'm going to give this to you.
- [86:12]
B
Thank you.
- [86:14]
A
I'll give this to my wife.
- [86:15]
B
She loves tequila.
- [86:16]
A
She would love that. And report back to you and tell her if she.
- [86:19]
B
I will report back to you.
- [86:20]
A
That's the blanco. If she likes the reposado or anejo, let me know.
- [86:23]
B
And the book is Long Branch. Book is Long Branch by Dan Ran.
- [86:26]
A
Dan Ran. He's been my assistant for 25 years and he's done a wonderful job with that.
- [86:30]
B
Does he treat you nice in the book? That's what we were.
- [86:32]
A
Well, if we ultimately do the series, which we hope to do, I will play a character in it that is based on my dear, dear former agent Jack Gilardi, who was legendary. He was like. He was everybody's agent back in the day. Frankie Avalon, Stallone. And he's an Italian guy from Chicago. He was, like, the perfect agent for me.
- [86:54]
B
It's a long story, but I recently got called cheap by Frankie Avalon. We'll just leave it there.
- [86:57]
A
Oh, well. Oh, well.
- [86:59]
B
That's. That's our out.
- [87:01]
A
That's our out.
- [87:01]
B
God bless.
- [87:02]
A
God bless.